A truly FRIGHTENING post on DU today...."10 things to know about Snowden".

[bvar22]

Did you read this post?
It was posted in an attempt to discredit Edward Snowden, the latest Whistle Blower on our government accumulating and compiling personal data on American citizens.

It contains some interesting tidbits:

*Donated to Ron Paul

*Wasn't a friendly neighbor

*His laptop stickers reveal his beliefs

* Used the codename Verax, Latin for “truthteller.”

*Lived comfortably

*Not on social media

Does it bother you that this personal data is being used in an attempt to discredit a Whistle Blower.
How did "they" dig up all this stuff so fast?

If the government kept an updated file on everybody that contained a compilation of personal tidbits like this, then almost ANYBODY could be instantly discredited if there was ANY suspicion that they might step out of line.


"Wasn't a friendly neighbor??!!!!
Really?
Gosh, that could be in MY file from the time my neighbor tried to put up a Dusk to Dawn 20 Million Candle Power Parking Lot Security Light on our property line.
(I wasn't very "friendly".)

"Lived Comfortably"??!!!
WHEN did THAT become an area of suspicion or a Talking Point to discredit someone in the USA?

The thing that frightened me is that THIS is the kind of stuff that IS NOW being used AGAINST someone who dared to Step-Out-of-Line,
and the possibility that this kind of stuff is being collected, compiled, and stored under the protection of Homeland Security Secrecy Blanket.
The government's "denials" have been less than reassuring.

That THIS post appeared on DUs Greatest Page,
and gathered RECOMMENDS should scare EVERYBODY!

[font size=3]The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[/font]

[font size=3]"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."[/font]---Ben Franklin

[font size=5 color=firebrick]Solidarity![/font]

[newmember]

1. I'm waiting for the child pornography or the rape charge

[cascadiance]

6. Yep, time to "Scott Ritter" him...

[dsc]

16. the problem is that Ritter really did have a thing for little girls

one can hope that Snowden doesn't.

[cascadiance]

32. How much you want to bet though Ritter never would have been in trouble...

... for this sort of thing if he weren't a "problem" for the PTB with his speeches and publications. Not trying to excuse his behavior here, but he was right about a lot of things that he brought to our attention.

I think the point is that whether people's sins are right or wrong, if you go against the powerful, they will find everything they can to nail you, and they are more empowered now with crap like this.

[dsc]

35. well his first arrest for this was way before he became famous

it did get leaked despite being sealed after he became famous. So he did get in trouble before but we only found out after.

[msanthrope]

68. Um--he was in trouble--twice--before he every became 'famous.' So other than a time machine,

Scott Ritter got Scott Ritter in trouble.

[AtheistCrusader]

173. Sometimes dirtbags ALSO do something we like.

Ritter was a case of 'also'.

I appreciate what he did to try and avert war, but I believe the charges against him (both times) and he is otherwise no ally of mine.
Doesn't weaken his anti-war arguments though. And that's the failing of the public.

I could be a vicious bastard of any stripe, and still make a competent and logical case against getting embroiled in endless war.

[SkyDaddy7]

163. They forgot...

Snowden tried out for the special forces & failed! Did not graduate high school. Gave up his life to "leak" info that was already in the public domain!! Seriously, I do not see the point at all!!

Just imagine if there was just half as much so-called "OUTRAGE" for actual violations of civil liberties far far far worse than NSA data collection...What state & local cops do on an hourly basis far exceeds anything the NSA has done or probably will ever do!!

Again, DU "OUTRAGE" is misguided...SAD!!!

[thefool_wa]

234. why assume that expressed outrage of a specific subject

in a specific discussion represents the whole of any individual's outrage.

You are right, there is PLENTY to be outraged about. Is your expectation that everyone who ever posts to a discussion define and rank their whole of outrages?

Honestly, assertions like this DETRACT from the overall discussion of VERY important topics, so next time just consider keeping it to yourself.

[SidDithers]

26. Yeah, you might not want to use Ritter as an example of someone being unfairly maligned....

Sid

[Octafish]

39. Caught red handed, was he?

The same Department of Justice that set up Don Siegelman is good enough for you?

[SidDithers]

44. Right. The BFEE made him show his junk to someone posing as a 15 year-old...

Comedy gold.

Sid

[Octafish]

61. Wow. Odd that you find comedy gold in what happened to Scott Ritter, siddithers.

Here's a link for you, an assistant U.S. Attorney -- tied to the Alabama GOP who helped railroad Siegelman.

A family man, John David "Roy" Atchison promised what he thought was the 5-year old girl's mother he wouldn't hurt the child -- stating he'd done it before. In reality, he was corresponding with an undercover deputy in Michigan. He showed up at the airport with toys. The guy was a riser in the Dixie GOP. He tried suicide in jail, the second time successfully.

http://legalschnauzer.blogspot.com/2010/09/strange-tale-of-pedophile-in-us-justice.html

I'm sure you know the case before now, right, siddithers?

[SidDithers]

64. No, octafish, I find comedy gold that you think Ritter was set-up...

Sid

[Octafish]

82. Nowhere did I write that, siddithers.

Feel free to quote from what I wrote above. As none of my replies were edited, you are making stuff up.

Why do you attempt to associate me with something I did not write? Is that what gives you satisfaction?

[SidDithers]

94. OK. The ol' 'I said it, but I didn't say it' ploy...

too funny, octafish.

Sid

[Octafish]

119. Not a big difference to you, all the difference in the world to me.

What I clearly wrote: Ritter may or may not be guilty as charged.

I do know the government that accused him and tried him also said Saddam Hussein represented an existential threat to the United States, which was a lie.

So, when are you going to post something about Bush and Cheney lying America into war, siddithers? Nothing from you shows up on the GOOGLE, I noticed.

[Art_from_Ark]

157. It's hard trying to reason with someone

who thinks that snarky remarks and rofl smilies constitute a serious discussion.

[Octafish]

166. Thanks, Art_from_Ark! The only thing I have on DU is my name.

I don't mind people disagreeing with me -- it's a great way to learn new things.

What I do mind are people who make things personal in order to diminish the worth of others' perspectives.

[Vinnie From Indy]

170. Don't sweat it amigo!

Fair minded readers can see clearly that Sid is not playing nice in this instance. I think your healthy doubt about the DOJ in these cases is fully warranted.

Cheers!

[AtheistCrusader]

175. "Caught red handed, was he?"

Ritter pled guilty. Both times.

Once before he was a political 'anyone'.
So what are we to make of that?

Has he recanted his guilty pleas?
I wouldn't put it past the government under the auspices of certain administrations to engage in manufactured character assassination, however, to successfully accomplish it this time, the government would have to possess a time machine.

[Octafish]

185. So what? I can't have an opinion?

Lots of people have to plead guilty in order to reduce the penalty phase if found guilty in trial.

Here's what Justin Raimondo, a writer I respect and whose politics I disdain, reported:

TARGET: SCOTT RITTER

The War Party gets ugly

Scott Ritter, the former UN weapons inspector who quit in 1998 and now says the U.S. is intent on manufacturing phony "evidence" of arms violations as a pretext for war, is the victim of what may be the sleaziest set-up job in recent history, a smearing so foul that it makes the Clinton crowd look like a bunch of amateurs. The news that he may have been arrested, in June 2001, as the result of an internet sex sting, in which an undercover cop posing as a sixteen-year-old girl lured him into "sex chat" over the internet, came to light in a very strange way. A local newspaper, the Daily Gazette, of Schenectady, New York, was first to pick up the dirt, which apparently came to light when an assistant district attorney was fired for settling the case and not informing the D.A. According to the Gazette:

"Police and prosecutors have declined to discuss the case, which involved at least one class B misdemeanor, because it was adjourned in contemplation of dismissal and ordered sealed by a Colonie Town Court justice. The Daily Gazette's request for access to the arrest report was denied by the Colonie town attorney's office, which ruled disclosure was barred under the state Freedom of Information Law."

So the police just happened to conduct a "sex sting" operation against the one man who had exposed the lies of our war-mad rulers from the inside. On the eve of war, as hundreds of thousands protest in the streets, this staunch Republican and solid family man who has become one of the War Party's most formidable enemies is suddenly "exposed" as a child molester.

Since the court records have been sealed, and the case was merely "adjourned in contemplation of dismissal," the authorities will say nothing, at least in public. The entrapment was apparently so transparent, so obviously the clumsiest sort of Cointelpro-style operation badly bungled by our newly-empowered political police, that the charges were dropped to the legal equivalent of a traffic ticket. Could it be that the records were sealed not to protect Ritter, but to protect whomever tried to set him up?

Anybody who doesn't believe that Ritter was specifically targeted on account of his political activities needs to seek help: that sort of naivete can be terminal, and the patient probably shouldn't be trusted to cross the street unattended.

In the post-9/11 era of the "Patriot" Act and the Office of Total Information Awareness, what is happening to Ritter is meant as a warning to anyone who dares oppose this government. Former UN inspectors, it seems, are a special target. Remember that other inspector, Jack McGeorge, also an American, who was "outed" as being a member of a sado-masochistic "advocacy" organization? Just as our war birds were wailing in bitter disappointment that the inspections process would delay or maybe even derail the much anticipated bloodbath, suddenly one of the inspectors is "exposed" as a sadomasochist. The point was not to somehow prove that this made him unfit for the job, but simply to degrade him, to make the experience so painful that he would immediately withdraw – which is precisely what happened.

CONTINUED w links...

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j012203.html

Seeing how the government railroaded Gov. Don Siegelman -- a move approved by then Solicitor General and now Supreme Court Associate Justice Kagan -- I reserve the right to remain skeptical in regards to the case against Scott Ritter.

[AtheistCrusader]

187. I don't begrudge you your skepticism.

Someone has to do it, and I actually thank you for it.

I just don't see Ritter and this NSA whistleblower on the same footing. I mean, all they have on this guy is 'he wasn't a very friendly neighbor'. Really? That's the best they've got? Yet they have EVERY reason to discredit him as hard as they can. They are failing.

If suddenly they whip out some character assassination stuff like Ritter, then I too, will join you. For now, it looks to be on the up and up, to me anyway.

[geek tragedy]

103. No one contests Ritter's guilt, including Ritter. nt

[AtheistCrusader]

174. Before anyone knew who he was, yes.

He admitted his guilt. I don't know why you are defending him. He didn't defend himself. (again, BEFORE we knew his name, in connection to Iraq)

[Octafish]

177. I defend Ritter because he stood up against the war in Iraq.

I understand he was accused once before he was famous -- and the court records involving that case are sealed.

There are reports that the reason is that the government's case was an obvious frame-up. Seeing how I don't have the resources of say, the New York Times, I cannot voyage to the courthouse to look them up and see for myself. Until then, I'll wonder whether Ritter was framed in the second case.

My reason for not going along with what is "established" in the press and by the government? I know what the United States did to Iraq and its people.

[AtheistCrusader]

178. Does

what he was accused of/pled guilty to erase the good things he said and did to oppose the lies and manufactured run-up to the war?


I don't think it does. I'm capable of thanking him for what he did politically, even if he has had problems privately/legally, outside what he did for a living.

His stance on the war is 100% vindicated. BUT that doesn't erase what he appears to have done otherwise, on his own time. But again, they are separate issues. One unrelated to the other.

[Octafish]

182. That is the point, isn't it?

The government who accused Ritter also happened to have lied America into an illegal, immoral, unnecessary and disastrous war on an innocent people who had no weapons of mass destruction, posed no threat to the United States, and had nothing to do with the attacks of September 11. Yet, top government officials said Iraq did.

[AtheistCrusader]

186. Yeah, we have a selective prosecution issue.

I would be more inclined to think he didn't do anything at all, if he hadn't been accused BEFORE he was a political figure. I realize the records were sealed, but... so were my uncle's. And he was guilty as fuck.

Barring him recanting his plea, and maybe some supporting evidence, in THIS case the justice system appears to have worked. Why Bush and Co. are still free and un-charged, is a different issue... Age-old, recognized in the time of Diogenes, in the infancy of 'the west'.

“Solon used to say that speech was the image of actions; - that laws were like cobwebs, -for that if any trifling or powerless thing fell into them, they held it fast; while if it were something weightier, it broke through them and was off”


Ritter wasn't weighty enough. Doesn't make him wrong about the war though.

[sabrina 1]

104. Manufactured sex scandals are the favorite, the CIA said so in a memo released by wikileaks when

were discussing how to silence Assange. Pretty scary memo to see them actually discussing it, and even more scary when just a few months later, they did it.

It worked, they don't have to prove anything with a compliant puppet prosecutor in Sweden refusing to file charges, pretending she can't get to talk to him, but while they keep up that lie, they can keep him from going anywhere. They can't shut him up though, nor have they succeeded in convincing anyone of grade school level intelligence that these rumors are anything but what they are.

And it would be a bit of a coincidence to use the same tactic so quickly again.

But we did get the expected attempts to smear someone no one even knew existed just hours before. The talking points are distributed pretty quickly.

[harun]

168. +1

[cascadiance]

194. And Eliot Spitzer committed such horrific crimes as well too....

Can't let that guy go after the big cheeses as AG or governor! No, no, NO!!!

I wonder if the IMF wouldn't have been doing so much damage with the EU now in terms of imposing so many austerity programs in Europe if Dominique Strauss Kahn (who in an article shortly before he was arrested in his incident in New York) had this to say about how Greece's problems should have been fixed with better tax collections, which many have noted are the real problems behind what Greece was dealing with. Somehow I wonder if some of these comments, and the fact that he was one of the interviews being featured in the Oscar winning documentary "Inside Job" might have had something to do with his ousting...

http://www.imf.org/external/np/vc/2010/121210.htm

...

Finally, may I ask you for your reaction, both on a personal level, as well as head of the IMF, to the demonstrations against you?

DSK: Demonstrations are part of any healthy democracy. It is only natural that some people are unhappy about the changes that need to be made. I understand that. This is a very difficult situation for the Greek people and I do not underestimate the efforts they are making. In fact, I commend them on those efforts--as I believe the rest of the world also is beginning to do. I would only emphasize this point again: when you have to make tough decisions and take difficult measures, it must be done in a socially just manner.From the beginning, we--and the government--have stressed the issue of fairness. Ordinary workers and pensioners have done their part. Now, others in Greek society--including the high-income earners--must do their part too. That Is why, for example, strengthening tax administration, and coming down hard on tax evasion, is so important. Yes, this will help increase needed revenues but, more than this, it will help enhance fairness. I believe that,ultimately, people will support reforms--even very difficult reforms--if they feel they are in the best interest of their country and if everyone is contributing their fair share.

Remember a while back when Al Gore was also targeted for "inappropriate behavior" in a massage he received up here in the northwest?

Whether people are guilty or not guilty of acts that many would condemn or not approve of, that doesn't necessarily negate that many other activities they've been involved with might have been very important and good things we wanted done in society, and the PTB want the ability to call up either false or true attacks on their character by having every little detail of their life in front of them that they can selectively parse and use to distract people from what really is going on.

Just look at how much others on this thread I started on DSK trying to assess how whether there was political motivations to law enforcement going after him in this instance and not in earlier instances due to other things he was involved with. It shows how effective such focus on other events in a human's life (even if they are guilty of something that needs punishment) will serve to distract us from the underlying truths that are larger problems for the rest of society if we ignore.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1216510

Seeing how Europe is almost now in revolution over what the IMF and EU leadership is trying to force on so many other EU members like Cyprus earlier, it does make you wonder if the same thing would have been happening if they hadn't pushed out DSK when they did. Not trying to defend him at all, but you still wonder what goes on behind the scenes, and how information gathering at the level of what the NSA is doing factors in to so many of these powerful entities' plans now...

[sabrina 1]

199. Excellent post. Re DSK, yes, that is an excellent question. He was opposed to much of what

has been done in Europe, destroying economies and essentially turning first world countries into dependents of the IMF. I took the trouble to look up some of his speeches on that whole mess, and it's obvious he was at odds with the Austerity crowd. But here in the US no one bothered to do a little a research and with Rupert Murdoch's screaming headlines, the knee jerk reactions were instant, ignorant and uninformed.

Once the goal was accomplished, the case went away.

[GoneFishin]

223. I confess to totally being convinced of the sex allegations of DSK and having never researched his

position on current events. I feel duped now. Because of your remarks it makes me wonder if he stood in the way of someone's profits, and they had to take him out.

[sabrina 1]

245. Don't feel bad, if it had not been for another DUer here I might have assumed the same thing,

although I am always skeptical about anything that comes from Rupert Murdoch's rags.

She was far more informed about what was going on in Europe at the time, and when I started to do some research, saw some of his speeches on the poor, on the IMF's policies etc, I couldn't believe it. I confess that when I saw 'IMF Chief etc etc, not being fond of that organization, I didn't look much further, and would not have probably, if she had not asked me to. I'm so glad she did. That is one of the more fascinating and probably important stories of the past decade and here, we are so isolated from the world here, it was presented as nothing more important than a cheap tabloid story.

Notice how it ended abruptly when they replaced him with someone more in cync with the neo-liberals? It was over in a flash. I discovered some interesting facts too while researching the story. French connections between our illustrious NYPD chief, good friends we found out, with the neocon French President at the time. And much more. It was eye-opening. Like some kind of epic novel. We discovered also that DSK has a brother here in the US very close to the Dems. Someday someone might make a movie of the whole thing. The US and its media will not look very good if they do. Nor will the IMF, Wall St and the rest of the 'rulers of the world'. But that's a long way off, sadly.

[GoneFishin]

254. Very informative. Thanks.

[cherokeeprogressive]

106. Child porn? Rape? How about RAPE and MURDER?

http://election.democraticunderground.com/10022985006

[boston bean]

2. I guess they didn't see the irony of the article...

ie... no wonder they don't care the gov't is collecting data on them.

That article could have been written by J Edgar Hoover during the 2nd red scare. And they thought it was GREAT!

[southernyankeebelle]

3. It is very sad to see this happening but on the other hand he isn't playing bean bag. He knew

what he was doing. But you know what I think is anything my government tells me don't believe til you see the proof and even then think twice about it. They can spin anything to make a person look like mother Theresa or Satan. Don't pay no mind. Seeing is believing. But I do have some issues with this guy. Why go to Hong Cong? If he really felt strongly about it he should have lawyered up then go before the tv cameras then say what he had to say. After all he did take an oath and got paid very well.

[delrem]

40. Hard to 2nd guess his actions now, because I never had that kind of courage.

Perhaps you have that kind of courage and have a better fall back to handle the situation once you're totally targeted by the entire US security/war machine. But I doubt it.

[southernyankeebelle]

59. No am not that brave. But I know what an loyality oath is because when I worked civil service

you had to swear to uphold and protect. So I do take that serious. On the other hand he must of seen something our government is doing that is so bad that he felt he had to come forward. I mean I think a majority of people realize that our emails and phones could be tapped. It has to be something even worse then that. Maybe its something to do with corporations and the government doing a coup. I don't know but he is the one who will be giving up so much at the age of 29. Honestly, there is so much more to this whole thing that we probably will never know. Courage yes, but and that is a big but. We will have to wait and see. I really am trying to keep an open mind.

[truedelphi]

255. Well, I believe that if Snowden had stayed in the USA,

He'd already be renditioned, and maybe dead by now.

Of course, I am a bit paranoid. For years, I was sure the government was collecting information about me, and you and all the rest of us.

Wasn't there an old saying of "You're not paranoid, if they really are out to get you."

And believe me, they really are out to get him.

[Jackpine Radical]

203. OK, suppose you were evaluating the case of a Nazi official in, say, 1939

who got to England before he revealed that he was the one who exposed Hitler's plans for genocide. Would you fault him for not staying in Germany because of his oath to the Third Reich? Should he have "lawyered up" and stayed home to take the heat?

[southernyankeebelle]

227. The whole barrel stinks doesn't it? Thank god we aren't in the Third Reich and the sad thing is

we may be heading toward that kind of society. We need to learn from the past. But I don't know we seem to repeat the past. All I know is I don't want corporations able to see what I'm saying and doing and buying. I think this is where I worry when I see corporations working hand and hand with police to try to stop people from protesting legally in the streets like OWC or during the conventions. You can't tell me they aren't interferring in peoples rights. I can understand the bad guys who would love to nuke the US. But something is wrong with our system. Right now I have a problem with not knowing more on this guy. I really don't know if he truly is a hero or a traitor. Time will tell I guy. I just want more informaiton. All the theories aren't going to change.

[whatdoyouthink]

244. Your right

Hiring out Security is a joke, just like hiring contractors for prisons and fighting our wars...FRAUD and just plain out wrong.

PSS I donated toward Edward Snowden Legal Defense Fund @ http://www.snowdenlegaldefensefund

Sure he will need it.

[southernyankeebelle]

247. I still have mixed feelings. I want to know more. Why Hong Kong? Why?

[reformist2]

4. How did they dig up all that info, you ask? The database Ed Snowden warned us about!

[emulatorloo]

214. No, they cite the Guardian. Doesn't mean POLITICO doesn't suck

Because they are egregious pot-stirrers. However, all kinds of DU'ers post their shit here, I have no clue why.

[Ian David]

5. He turned me into a newt!

(I got better.)

[Squinch]

36. .

[reformist2]

11. They're saving that one for later, if he continues to be a hero.

[me b zola]

12. B.B., you seem to have "gotten" it

Yeah, Snoweden will be turned into everything this side of a vampire. He will be scrutinized and every act in his private life will be fuel for the pier. Yeah, it sucks to go against TPTB, they will always find you and you know this going in...~

[sabrina 1]

115. They got the talking points really fast, which is probably easy enough actually. They just email

them to the online crew who post them on forums around the net. The trouble for them now is that no one really falls for something that has become so predictable. We had just predicted that the 'smear campaign will begin soon' and there it was. What we learned today even without the leaks or the leaker, although it was the story itself that caused me to learn things I did not know and am shocked by, is so disturbing.

Ron Wyden was right 'if the American people ever find out what they are doing ... '

The fact that so many people are willing to risk their careers and even lives over the past several years to inform the American people, says way more than all their attempted smear campaigns.

[L0oniX]

201. ...and another clown jury plays with free speech.

[wandy]

43. The way the artical is written attempts to portray him as an evil nut............

That could be 'editors' choice.
When one enters the 'limelight' a lot of information comes to light quickly. Without government assistance.
Some is resume stuff.
Some work record. No doubt the people he worked for are unhappy.
As to neighbors. Don't bet on what my neighbors would say about me. That is until you've met my basscubes.
I'll grant the article was written to show him in an unflattering manner.

It would be interesting to see his job responsibilities and his resume.

[Octafish]

8. He's also an acrobat-abandoner!

Thank you, Enrique!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022987542

First laugh on DU today.

[smokey nj]

19. Someone posted in the below thread that s/he was afraid Snowden "did something" to her

before he left.
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/10022986403

[rhett o rick]

28. The insanity is overwhelming. nm

[QC]

9. The BOG Un-American Activities Committee has been very busy.

Now we have just learned that he abandoned a ballerina. Anything to avoid discussing the real issue.

[Whisp]

20. see you and the club in a few days...

when you retreat with tails between the legs for getting snookered Again by some fake outrage the baggers set as a trap for you - and it works every time.

but you will be silent and quiet and no apologies will be forthcoming, just stealth until we get another bagger liestory to have orgasms over.

[frylock]

107. baggers like lindsey graham?

he's on board with this shit, just like you!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

121. It takes a really special kingd of person

...to believe that the Teabaggers have some kind of secret political agenda control mechanism so advanced and powerful that they're controlling everyone from the press to the White House to the NSA to a majority of liberals on this board. The vast majority of baggers, including the elected ones, are really stupid motherfuckers. What must it take to believe these inbreeders are omnipotent strategists? The question answers itself.

[stevenleser]

176. And Ann Coulter is criticizing the President and administration for it, just like you! nt

[frylock]

198. wow. she never criticizes the president. this is groundbreaking..

going to have to rethink my view on this one. okay, i'm done. fuck ann coulter, and fuck your premise.

[stevenleser]

202. Aw, frylock haz a sad, his logical fallacy was thrown back at him. Moral of the story?

Don't use fallacious reasoning

[frylock]

207. if you're too stupid to figure out the difference from lindsey graham who is against EVERYTHING..

the president does supporting this program, and ann coulter who is against everything the president does and is against the program, then that's your problem.

[stevenleser]

209. Justifying one logical fallacy (Guilt by Association) with another? (Ad hominem)

Do you know how to debate without using logical fallacies?

[frylock]

229. all we get around here is logical fallacies anymore..

don't care for some of the President's policies? You're a racist. Think FLOTUS could've handled the heckler better? You're a misogynist. Uncomfortable with the ever-increasing police state? Then you're working on the inside to destroy the democratic party. Welcome to the nu-DU.

[L0oniX]

208. Yea ...and now anyone who critcizes the POTUS is just like her.

[L0oniX]

206. False equivalency expert?

[b.durruti]

42. What is BOG? -nt-

[QC]

52. A fever swamp. n/t

[Fumesucker]

57. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1102

[b.durruti]

66. I see, thank you! -nt-

[Skittles]

71. Barack Obama Groupies

[morningfog]

116. A bog is a nasty cesspool of deteriorating organic matter.

bog (bôg, bg)
n.
1.
a. An area having a wet, spongy, acidic substrate composed chiefly of sphagnum moss and peat in which characteristic shrubs and herbs and sometimes trees usually grow.
b. Any of certain other wetland areas, such as a fen, having a peat substrate. Also called peat bog.
2. An area of soft, naturally waterlogged ground.

v.intr.
To be hindered and slowed.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bog

I've hiked through bogs, you don't want to hang around long.

[Capt. Obvious]

226. The BOGUAC

[MotherPetrie]

10. And none of those things would bother 'em if Bush was still in the WH

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Oh those folks would be leading the...

Snowden American Hero...brigade cause you know bush is a. REPUBLICAN and cannot be trusted with this power...but a Democrat is pure as freshly fallen snow

[b.durruti]

77. Disgusting, isn't it? -nt-

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. Yup, it is.

I had a problem when bush did it, so when Obama did it.

[alarimer]

122. Yes.

I think I've had enough of it myself, of politics, of Obama, of this site even. Although there are plenty of critics on the right who would love this if Bush were doing it, so it works both ways.

Now, hero or not, I think he is a genuine whistle-blower. This is information we need to know, so that we can do something to rein it. But we won't be able to do that if the partisans on the Democratic

The vitriol against Greenwald here is atrocious as well, just because they guy is as critical of Democrats (and they definitely deserve it) as he is of anyone else.

I used to think liberals were smarter, but I think they are just as prone to cognitive dissonance as the other side, especially when it is there side who is guilty of disgraceful acts.

[Katashi_itto]

130. I think liberals are smarter. But I think Du has been "infiltrated"...

I think there is a very vocal contingent on DU that are liberal/progressive in name only.

[Maedhros]

137. You can tell the ones who are here only to disrupt and insult people.

They change their avatars to Bernie Sanders specifically because a thread was posted asking trolls not to use Bernie's avatar.

[HooptieWagon]

13. No surprise the WH and intelligence community seek to discredit Snowden.

And no surprise their operatives bring the smear-job to DU...it's their job.

[LondonReign2]

14. More hilarious than frightening

Not a friendly neighbor? This is how desperate they are to smear him, with such ham-handedness?

[one_voice]

72. I call one of my neighbors...

unfriendly all the time.

They have three dogs that they chain outside ALL day long and most of the night, no matter the weather. Heat, rain, cold, it doesn't matter. One is a puppy.

Don't know about you, but that tells me a lot about what kind of person they are.

Unfriendly is but one of the things they are...

They're fucked up people. But I couldn't quit say that in mixed company now could I...

[spooky3]

191. don't know where you live, but if your animal control rules forbid this mistreatment

PLEASE call them.

Our county rules forbid it.

Please intervene to stop this cruelty to helpless animals.

[one_voice]

219. We have a law that allows an

animal to be chained for 18 hours** and that's supposed to be a good thing . They can be left outside as long as they have food and shelter.

I have called the SPCA, according to them the law is being followed to the letter. I would like to chain the owners with a bowl of water...in direct sun and a hot/cold shed for shelter.

I have tried to intervene. I've done all I can. It breaks my heart. I've considered taking the dogs and finding them safe and loving homes....but that would be illegal. Some days I don't care.

The people that lived there before this current occupant (this house is a rental and the owner only cares about the monthly check) were pretty much the same, except they didn't mind me going in and giving their dogs fresh water or bringing them over with me/my dogs when it was really hot or cold or just to play.

I hate living next door to people like this.


**http://www.humanesociety.org/news/press_releases/2012/06/delaware_bill_limit_dog_tethering_062912.html

[spooky3]

221. That's horrible. Good on ya for doing everything possible to help these poor animals.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

196. Coalition to Unchain Dogs

http://www.unchaindogs.net/

[Fumesucker]

15. The number of out and out authoritarians on DU has been climbing steadily for years

I wish I could say that post and the reaction to it surprises me but it really doesn't any more.

[emulatorloo]

211. I prefer Maddow and O'Donnell reporting over Greenwald's

According to today's DU, I must be Hitler.

As to the Politico story, typical of them. People post their shit here all the time. They are a rotten source.

[Fumesucker]

237. David Brooks got quite a few recs today on DU

A more odious Republican bootlicker than Brooks would be hard to name.

[emulatorloo]

248. Brooks is a tool, that's for sure.

[Cali_Democrat]

18. Well this information is easy to figure out

*Donated to Ron Paul

*Wasn't a friendly neighbor

*His laptop stickers reveal his beliefs

* Used the codename Verax, Latin for “truthteller.”

*Lived comfortably

*Not on social media

How did "they" dig up all this stuff so fast?


Well it's pretty easy to figure this out:

1) Political donations above 200 dollars are all public. Ever been to opensecrets.org?
2) They asked his neighbors about him and they said he wasn't friendly.
3) You can see his laptop stickers in the video interview he gave to the Guardian
4) He said himself that he used the code name Verax
5) His job payed him 200k/year. Most people consider that comfortable.
6) Probably looked all over Facebook and could find an account for him.

[ucrdem]

21. Isn't this a callout?

If you're so frightened say so in the thread.

[alcibiades_mystery]

30. There aren't any rules on DU anymore, just juries of the moment and popularity contests

Call-out thread, even obvious ones, are allowed, so long as it's your friend that's making them.

Luck of the draw, pardnuh...

[ucrdem]

37. Nobody seems particularly frightened here.

Guess they're just brave soldiers.

[alcibiades_mystery]

48. They're freedom fighters, struggling against the "authoritarians," their imagined enemy of the week

Scary, scary authoritarians, infiltrating their message boards. Frightening!

Some people never leave high school, no matter how old and foolish they become.

[ucrdem]

53. Another Ron Paul fan gets the hero treatment, go figure.

Last edited Wed Jun 12, 2013, 12:21 AM - Edit history (1)

And good luck trying to set the hearts and flowers league straight.

[savalez]

131. That one alone was enough for me.

[Number23]

80. An absolutely TRAGIC thought

Some people never leave high school, no matter how old and foolish they become.

[alcibiades_mystery]

87. Watching the little cliques have at each other these last few days has been rather tragi-comic

actually.

[Major Hogwash]

126. Oh, yeah!? Well, if any of you guys touches me, I'll kill ya, If you touch my stuff, I'll kill ya.

If you look at me funny, I'll kill ya.

[savalez]

129. Stripes!

[MNBrewer]

102. Kangaroo courts.

[BrotherIvan]

139. Why do you BOrGers always talk amongst yourselves in threads?

Quite puzzling.

[ucrdem]

151. It's nothing personal

if that's what you're getting at.

[elias7]

189. Actually, both sides do it

Very distracting. Bullyish....

[BrotherIvan]

192. I think that echo chamber effect might be soothing

[L0oniX]

204. LOL ...you noticed this already?

[bvar22]

239. In high school, its called a "Circle Jerk".

...and serves much the same purpose at DU.

[forestpath]

22. SDS.

[baldguy]

23. We can't have the truth exposed about this "whistleblower"?

If he's nothing to hide, why should you worry?

[TheKentuckian]

117. Observing the desperate discrediting program when the toothpaste is already out of the tube

The Administration has not only fessed but crows about a big enough concern for me.

I suspect that there is the expectation of another shoe or two, but I guess confirmation Obama is up to similar shit as his predecessor just dressed up with a lil professionalism is enough to trigger such a reaction.

It is consistent though, some folks always make it about personality but personality is pretty irrelevant at least at present.

It is what it is...motivations, affiliations, resumes, and what have you don't change the situation. It just is a distraction and a lame ass attempt to make the whole deal a battle of personalities and avoid civil liberties concerns (well other than to pooh pooh them as antiquated or some such).

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. "Lived comfortably"? I'm sure glad the prez is living in a tent.

[UTUSN]

25. Adding #s here:

#11 - is a cyberkid dealing with abstracts over real life, life is a computer game.

#12 - has a really low opinion of the country he claims to love, "fled because doesn't believe he can get a fair trial in the U.S." (not from the coterie of Bad Guys, but from the whole country)

#13 - if he had been in college would have spent all time in bullshit sessions "If I ruled the world"

#14 - believes his world view is new, he's so "idealistic" - nobody ever thought these thoughts before

#15 - believes his own drama

#16 - thinks substituting his limited perspective for EVERYbody else's because he's 29 and a dropout from everything

#17 - thinks the Bad Guys can be beaten with sugar and spice

#18 - One word: Libertarianism

#19 - confuses movies with washing dishes

#20 - Really believes in Facebook

[Tx4obama]

27. He is NOT a whistleblower. Whisleblowers leak illegal things. The stuff Snowden leaked was legal.

He is a LEAKER - and should be arrested and put on trial.

[Fumesucker]

29. Just like torturers should be arrested and put on trial

[Lady Freedom Returns]

34. I want to know what "Little Bird" said it was a good time to pull this?

Something that is a guaranteed attention getter. Along with the IRS scandal.

Just in the knick of time to blind the public while certain votes are being taken in Congress on things that will hurt the public.

To freaking covenant!

[Life Long Dem]

73. +1 n/t

[Marr]

108. It's legal because it hasn't been challenged.

And the WH has so far successfully prevented such a challenge by claiming that, since it's secret, no single individual can bring suit by claiming their rights have been violated.

[woo me with science]

114. The modus operandi of authoritarian governments

is to make everything they do "legal."

Sheesh.

[alarimer]

124. Legal but very, very WRONG.

It should not be legal and, with any luck, the Supreme Court (if it had any guts at all) would declare this unconstitutional.

Your fucking government is SPYING on you! I am so sick of the passive bullshit. "Oh, it's okay because it's legal."

[classykaren]

172. + 1

[JoeyT]

125. You have a funny idea of the definition of "whistleblower".

The Tuskegee Experiment was perfectly legal when Buxton went to the press, and he's widely considered a whistleblower.

[rhett o rick]

127. Why is it so very important to say he isnt a whistle-blower? I notice that when

someone exposes wrong doing, the conservatives among us want to lynch them. And when they are labeled a whistle-blower the conservatives object. And I wonder why because conservatives hate all whistle-blowers. Authoritarians love their authoritarian leaders and dont want to hear if they do anything wrong. Conservatives hate whistle-blowers, protesters, leaker, and Occupy. They hate any objection to authoritarian rule.

[snagglepuss]

217. Hear Hear

[AnotherMcIntosh]

138. Legal? Slavery was legal under the Constitution. It still was immoral.

Giving de facto immunity to openly-admitted war criminals is legal. It still is immoral.

In your world, spying upon all Americans is legal, even if it is prohibited by the 4th Amendment. Whether legal or not, it is immoral.

[BrotherIvan]

140. If it's all legal why should he be on trial?

He leaked secrets about the government collecting data on the citizenry because they have a right to know.

Was your post put through Google Translate?

[Tx4obama]

141. What NSA is doing is currently legal under law. What Snowden DID was illegal.

Snowden did not have the authority to give the press classified documents.

[BrotherIvan]

143. The founding fathers were traitors to their country and king

If they had lost the war they would have been hanged.

Do you agree with their actions and if so, why?

If you don't, do you believe the Constitution should be dismantled and reparations made to England?

[Maedhros]

231. Authoritarians argue that the spying is legal

Progressives argue that the spying is wrong.

I prefer many fewer Authoritarians in my political party than is indicated by the number of them on this supposedly Democratic board.

[bvar22]

249. "No one is saying that Obama broke the law.

[font size=3]We're just saying that it was a little weird that he didn't have to."[/font]
--John Oliver from last night's Daily Show

[JDPriestly]

146. What if it turns out that the entire program is unconstitutional?

It has the capacity to chill speech and the exercise of other rights in my opinion. It could easily be found to violate the Constitution. They are looking for too broad a range of information about too many people.

[Tx4obama]

149. I saw a short news clip tonight ...

The guy said that last year NSA filed a request with the FISA Court 1,789 times for authority to check out specific phone numbers (NOT wire-taps) to search the database on an individual number. That's like what (?) on the average less than 5 numbers/times per day - out of hundreds of millions of numbers.

The news clip is at the 8:35 minute mark here: http://www.mediaite.com/tv/john-oliver-kicks-off-daily-show-hosting-with-nsa-amish-must-feel-really-fcking-smart-right-now/


I know that most folks won't agree with me but to me that doesn't seems like they are investigating that many leads/folks.

I think we still need to hear more from both sides of the issue.

[bvar22]

246. Did that news show happen to mention how many times the FISA Court DENIED...

...turned down the NSA's request for a Warrant?


The answer is ZERO.
FISA granted every single request for a warrant from the NSA for Electronic Surveillance.
Seems a little one sided, Eh?

Like a procedural Rubber Stamp for the Government instead of a court tasked with protecting and enforcing the 4th Amendment for the People:

[font size=3]The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.[/font]

Wouldn't you LOVE to see the NSA's request for the FISA warrant to seize the data from MILLIONS of Verizon customers?
They MUST have had a HELL of a time "describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized".
But we can't see it, because its SECRET!!!!

...and THIS is only ONE of the warrants approved by the FISA Rubber Stamp Court.


Really must be hard defending this kind of bullshit.


[font color=firebrick size=3][center]"If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for,
at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them."
--- Paul Wellstone[/font][/center]
[center][/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center][/font]

[font size=5 color=firebrick]Solidarity![/font]

[spooky3]

193. and 4th -- unreasonable searches and seizures

[99th_Monkey]

152. If "The stuff Snowden leaked was legal", then why "put him on trial"?

what am I missing here?

[Tx4obama]

154. See my text in Comment #141

[Abq_Sarah]

153. I know this can be a bit confusing but...

Actions taken by the government aren't necessarily legal just because they've given themselves permission. The congress could pass a law tomorrow requiring you to become a member of a specific religion but we have this little document called the constitution that protects you from the congress.

[Tx4obama]

155. And if Congress were to pass any law and the Pres where to sign it and it was unconstitutional...

... then it would go through the Courts and be deemed unconstitutional.

Citizens do not have the right to decide whenever they wish which laws they will or will not abide to.

[Abq_Sarah]

156. Actually we do

We're not subjects, we're citizens and as such, we do have certain rights that can't be removed at the whims of government. If people don't stand up to government, there are no limits on what they can and will do.

[woo me with science]

161. Thank you.

The authoritarians among us seem to have difficulty with that "subjects" versus "citizens" distinction.

[grasswire]

257. oh yes we do, ultimately

The constitutionally allowed provision is called jury nullification: the ability of the citizens to judge the law itself, as well as the facts of any case brought before any court.

www.fija.org Fully Informed Jury Association

[backscatter712]

184. Slavery was once legal. Do you have a point I should give a shit about? n/t

[L0oniX]

210. +1

[frylock]

232. does she ever?

[L0oniX]

212. Oh I see ...legal makes it right.

[still_one]

31. So you want to set the rules what people should or should not post?

[Lex]

118. LOL. He was commenting on the post, not 'setting the rules' for posting.

There's a difference.

[still_one]

142. He was commenting how "frightening" the post was. What drama

[Lex]

197. That's just commentary, not rule-making.

Drama? Here at DU? Heavens no.

[still_one]

235. Alright I agree

[whatchamacallit]

33. This place is toast

I predicted long ago a center/right president would kill DU :/

[LondonReign2]

54. Agree

The number of folks willing to abandon principles because of the letter behind a politicians name is depressing

[gleannfia]

85. Naw

Not to worry. You elitist poseurs believe you are far more important than you really are. Small potatoes. LOL

[Egalitarian Thug]

88. Nah, this is the entertainment factor that keeps it alive. The palpable panic and wild-eyed

frenzy from the righteous defenders of celebrity, makes coming here worthwhile (sometimes).

[harun]

169. Fast approaching entertainment only status.

But a few good people remain.

[randome]

38. Not so 'frightening' if you ignore the threads that seem silly.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[nineteen50]

41. Perfect example of

meta-data mining to decide (so to speak) intentions and then label and punish.

[The Link]

46. He didn't finish high school!

[nineteen50]

47. Forget the old standard until guilty

just meta-data mine and claim intentions them violate punish and jail.

[upi402]

49. This is DU, not LU

Democratic has nothing to do with Liberal anymore IMHO

[ReRe]

95. Perdonome? Ahem.. excuse me?

Democratic does not equal Liberal? I can only assume, by that comment, that you describe yourself as a Moderate Democrat? Or a Conservative Democrat?

[DirkGently]

50. He has several overdue library books.

[awoke_in_2003]

98. String the bastard up. nt

[pecwae]

162. And RedBox DVDs

that he has no intention of ever returning. Blatant media theft!

[1StrongBlackMan]

51. While most of that list ...

is B.S., there is enough out there to give me pause as to who Mr. Snowden is/might be.

[Summer Hathaway]

148. Agreed.

This particular 'list' is, for the most part, irrelevant trivia.

However, there are those here who (a) started canonizing Snowden within the first few hours of hearing his name, and are now (b) claiming that ANY scrutiny into his credentials or resume is an attempt to 'smear him'.

These are, ironically enough, the same people who are always screaming about how they base their opinions on FACTS - but in this instance, the 'facts' are no longer important.

[1StrongBlackMan]

259. Yep …

Facts that support their worldview/ideology … Facts that should be considered to inform, challenge and thereby /complete that worldview, are summarily dismissed. Isn’t that what we have been so critical of the right about?

[noamnety]

55. A list of important things I need to know about my whistle blowers

1. Do they have boxes in their garage? I don't know about you all, but I find it hard to trust a whistle blower who doesn't fully unpack from their last move. It shows a lack of commitment to their home, their community - and their country. People with boxes in their garage are bad patriots.

2. Do they have a facebook page? You know, so many problems could be resolved if people just took their grievances to facebook. (I learned that from teaching teenagers.)

3. Do they like stickers? Stickers on laptops, cars, and windows are passive aggressive attention-getting ploys for people who don't feel they have enough of a voice (perhaps because they don't have a facebook page???). Stickerlovers are defacers of property. Sure it's their own property, but if they can't even respect their own things, how are we supposed to trust them with national secrets?

4. Are they friendly with their neighbors? Do they bring them muffins, or extra zucchini from their garden? Or are they muffin hoarders? I mean, fuck muffin hoarders. Am I right?

5. What about their girlfriends? I know I'm not alone here - how are we to form an opinion on national security issues without knowing if our whistle blowers' girlfriends are ballet dancers? Isn't ballet kinda french?

6. Do they have a high school diploma? If not, they probably didn't play football or go to prom and that sounds downright unamerican to me. You know who else didn't have a high school diploma? Richard Carmona, the former Surgeon General - another whistle blower. I see a pattern here!

7. Did neighbors see him checking his mail? What was he checking for and why was he getting so much mail? Was it letters from China? I bet it was!

[marions ghost]

83. "He doesn't finish anything

like school or the army ...he's a LOSER..."

[Demo_Chris]

179. Great post. nt

[ProSense]

56. Seriously,

"Does it bother you that this personal data is being used in an attempt to discredit a Whistle Blower. "

...this isn't what's going to "discredit" Snowden.

"Most significant" leak in history, and likely one of the dumbest.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022987178

Edward Snowden Is No Hero - What, one wonders, did Snowden think the N.S.A. did? - By Jeffrey Toobin
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022987669

[Spitfire of ATJ]

58. Aren't all CIA employees required to have a tracking chip?

For that matter,...aren't all of us?

[quakerboy]

60. Another tempest in a tea pot

I dont know snowden. He may or may not be what he claims to be, or something entirely different.

"How did "they" dig up all this stuff so fast? "

The internet. How did we know everything and then some about Tony Bologna asap after he pepper sprayed those women. or that Berkley campus cop who sprayed the sitting line. How did we learn so much about the polling scammer who took in rcp and all the others with his bogus polls, this last election.



In the end, it doesn't matter whether he is what he says he is or not. Fact is our government is spying on us. Whether they made it legal or not, its still what they are doing. Whether they follow their own rules in letter or spirit, they are still spying on us. Regardless of who started it, how long its been going on, whether its reduced or increased, any of these details, whether they record all of our calls or just look at metadata, they are still spying on us. And its wrong.

[marions ghost]

79. +++++

"They
Are
Spying
On
Us"

-----------------

Easier to discredit the guy who points it out than REALLY face what is going on and talk about what we might be able to do about it.

[dflprincess]

62. I don't understand why so many people have trouble with the concept that

if it was wrong when Bush started it, it's still wrong when Obama continues it.

If Snowden had done this when Bush was president DU would be full of threads rushing to his defense.

[upi402]

63. ^ + 1,000 !!!

[ProSense]

69. Because

"I don't understand why so many people have trouble with the concept that if it was wrong when Bush started it, it's still wrong when Obama continues it.

If Snowden had done this when Bush was president DU would be full of threads rushing to his defense. "

...it's an apples and oranges comparison.

Bush came under attack because he bypassed the FISA court and went directly to intentionally spying on Americans. Bush broke the law (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022973979).

"Most significant" leak in history, and likely one of the dumbest.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022987178

[ucrdem]

75. Exactly.

Thanks for pointing that out ProSense!

[JDPriestly]

147. The subpoenas are overbroad.

They collect to much information. That's the problem. They can get the pen register for specific suspects and to aid in specific investigations, but these broad, sweeping subpoenas will chill speech.

People will be careful about who they e-mail or call or associate with. That may be a violation of the Constitution. People who don't understand why this is incompatible with our Constitution just don't understand constitutional issues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect_%28law%29

Obama could stop this program now. But he probably could not have stopped it before it was exposed by Snowden.

I don't blame Obama for this. I think that the National Security apparatus has a life of its own. No president can control it. It is way out of control. I suspect that we don't know the half of what goes on. But I also suspect that Obama is at a loss as to what to do about the whole out-of-control security organization. The situation seems to be taking care of itself what with this revelation from a disgruntled private contractor's employee.

When I think about why I do not like excessive power in the intelligence sector, I think of the mess in Iran and wonder whether we would have so many problems in Iran had Kermit Roosevelt just allowed the country to develop its own democracy and make its own good and bad decisions. We meddled too much, and we are still paying for it.

So, I think it is actually good that this scandal has come to light, and I think that Obama will know how to handle it. Obama should let it be known that this is not a problem that he created. He inherited it. He needs to reduce it to a reasonable program that is based on probable cause and that doesn't just grab far too much information.

Why do I think that this program may be deemed unconstitutional? Because it is obvious that the government is not only collecting information on who we call and who we e-mail (and who calls and e-mails us) but is also doing it on journalists, politicians and probably Supreme Court justices who travel overseas.

What is more, the US government is probably collecting information on businesses. That could really backfire on them. Although I suspect that businesses encrypt some of their most sensitive information, they don't encrypt all of it, and they don't hide the length and destinations of their e-mails. I don't have a reason to think that. I just figure that is what I would do if I had enough money to do it and wanted to protect my trade secrets.

What is more, I read in the Austrian newspaper, Der Standard, today that the European Union has been trying to negotiate for their citizens the right to sue in the US for violations of their privacy and to compel U.S. corporations to comply with European law on privacy when doing business in Europe. Angela Merkel plans to discuss this with Obama when he visits and she sees him. I think there will be a lot of pressure on the US to modify this program.

[ucrdem]

70. Bush was doing it illegally for one thing.

He was also pouring resources into the national security apparatus that Obama for better or worse was elected to maintain. He has in fact scaled it back significantly, with more cuts on the table, and the sequester in that respect was actually useful.

But this type of manufactured "scandal" is pure GOP ratfuck, the transparent purposes of which are to a) handicap Obama in every way possible, in this case by undermining his position in last weekend's US-China summit, and b) discourage swing voters from supporting Democrats in 2014.

And that's worth pointing that out and making a stink about, IMHO.

[nashville_brook]

78. precisely. i've seen some exotic conspiracy theories and pretzel logic here...

it's looking a lot like an Alex Jones site.

[leveymg]

91. The weird thing is that the conspiracizing about Snowden is by people who usually treat CT

with elaborate contempt. And, they're just complete amateurs at it - and don't seem to have any idea what they're doing or even how to frame a hypothesis without sounding silly and .

Very interesting.

[Fumesucker]

109. Good point n/t

[Marr]

110. +1

I honestly don't know how a person can be so oblivious to such a massive double standard either.

[markpkessinger]

128. Bingo! n/t

[azurnoir]

145. yep +10000

and the woo woo about China blah blah ratf*ck this and that seems almost kind of childish IMO

[SomethingFishy]

213. Judging from the replies you got it doesn't matter if it's right

as long as it's LEGAL. You see when Bush did it it was illegal and that was bad. Now Obama is doing it and it's legal so that is good. Nevermind that they won't let a court decide on the Constitutionality of it. Obama is doing it, it is legal, therefore it must be good.

[dflprincess]

260. Apparently so

I guess I just didn't think things through

What scares me is comments made on other threads regarding this issue and the Constitution. There seem to be a number of people here who agree with Bush that it's "just a piece of paper".

[cantbeserious]

253. Roger That - The Duplicity In Response Is Telling

eom

[LibDemAlways]

65. Jeez, if being an "unfriendly" neighbor is enough to

discredit someone, my entire neighborhood would be in deep shit.

[markiv]

67. they've released a disturbing picture of him

oops, wrong guy

[markiv]

74. a lot of people are perfectly fine with indentured servitude, to bust wages

which is what guest worker visas like H-1b are

so really, in some ways the reaction here doesnt suprise me

'corporate fascism is OK, if it's OUR GUY (or gal) who does it'

[wildbilln864]

76. k & r! nt

[woo me with science]

84. +100000.....Yes, the smear campaign against Snowden

Last edited Mon Jun 10, 2013, 10:45 PM - Edit history (3)

by the defenders of every damned thing this administration ever does is ironically exposing exactly WHY this surveillance program targeted at every American citizen is so creepy, unconscionable, and gravely dangerous to every single one of us.

When access to the day-to-day details of every citizen's personal activities and communications are stored in databases by a GOVERNMENT, it is egregiously easy for any citizen to become a target at any time, for any reason, and to be preemptively slimed, intimidated, slandered, framed, or arrested and detained. It creates an entire infrastructure for quietly getting rid of activists, whistleblowers, or any other inconvenient citizen, even well before any activism materializes. It is a recipe for tyranny and totalitarianism.

You commit three felonies a day.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022987642

HUGE K&R, bvar22. Thank you.

[woo me with science]

92. Yes, that's about the caliber of response

we have come to expect. Sliming by reflex, no apparent awareness of context or history, and no coherent response to the assaults on our Constitution.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

96. The meds don't work. Really

[markiv]

89. +1000, for catching the irony, that those who claim the program is harmless

attempt to destroy the guy who exposed it, with 'dirt'

perfect example of the danger of it

[woo me with science]

93. Yes, it's chilling,

and they are underscoring exactly how chilling it is.

[snot]

90. K&R'd!

[PatrynXX]

97. never thought I'd see the day when Michael Moore and Glenn Beckkk praised the same guy..

so in the middle of China stealing our secrets where was this guy holed up for a time. in freaking China. that was the end of it for me. Unlike Assange this guy committed treason , wonder what secrets he gave up to the chinese

[MNBrewer]

99. Yep. the STENCH of the smear machine is really overpowering on DU recently.

[markpkessinger]

100. Agreed -- utterly appalling! n/t

[ReRe]

101. bvar22, honey bunny....

... they use background checks not just to check your experience for the job you are applying for. They are building a cover story on you as they go. They kill two birds with one stone, if you will. That way, if you ever have the notion to go rogue and blow the whistle, they just pull out the cover story they built on you in your background check. Hell, they probably update it every day of your life. Did you notice that it was only hours after Snowden came out that the smear started? Thanks for the OP. I had not seen this yet.

[Marr]

105. "You gonna believe a guy who looks at this kind of porn?", a White House spokesman said,

holding up a series of images. "And look at how he showers! What sort of man uses a pink loofah, am I right? You can't believe anything a guy like THAT says".

[alfredo]

111. Everybody receiving a security clearance goes through an FBI

Background check. They probably know the consistency of his shit.


Mine took several months, probably because of the level of clearence. They even track you after you leave the service. I had a five year travel restriction, and lifetime bar from immigrating. That clearance is quite expensive for future aspirations and privacy.


Intelligence work is a trap. How you react to the realization depends on the individual. I didn't tale it well, but his reaction seems much worse than mine. I turned in on myself, he lashed out.

[Marrah_G]

183. Yup, when my son went through it they did an extensive check

Right down to interviewing our neighbors, friends, local PD, his former teachers, etc.

[alfredo]

225. Once you are inside, you realize your ass belongs to them.

I think some of my PTSD is from the realization that I'm trapped in a situation I can't get out of.

[Marrah_G]

228. He doesn't do intel work, he does IT type work both as an airman and as a civilian.

For him it has been a huge asset. He was the youngest person the agent had ever investigated (17) for clearance. He can't buy a beer yet, but he has a good job and gets to travel....alot.

I can understand how people in the intel business would get burnt out fast though.

[alfredo]

230. That's good.

The more they trust you with, the less they trust you. I can see their side.

[99Forever]

112. I am stunned at the collection of...

... spineless, unprincipled, toadies that infest this place and the Democratic Party in general. There was a time when it MEANT SOMETHING to call yourself a Democrat. Apparently that is no longer the case.

[morningfog]

113. Fascist apologia is in vogue on DU now.

[Summer Hathaway]

120. OMG!!!!! WTF!!!!!

Someone posted a a piece from Politico!!!!!!!!!!!! That is not only FRIGHTENING, it's downright CHILLING to the bone!

That poster had some nerve!

What is amusing is how many DUers are declaring Snowden as a hero, a saint, a man above reproach - when they know nothing about him of any substance, and hadn't even heard of him before 48 hours ago. And, yes, most of them are the same people who call Obama supporters 'sheeple' who will believe anything, and constantly brag about how they base their own opinions on the facts.

Well, the 'facts' on Snowden at this point are sketchy at best, and his own account of his past experiences is riddled with inconsistencies.

But, hey, I wouldn't want to spoil the fun of the let's canonize this guy right now crowd. Why bother with waiting until all the facts are available? That's just a downer, man.

[Bluenorthwest]

132. If it's so amusing, why not share with us how many are delcaring him a saint or hero

a man above reproach. Can you show anyone saying those things or is that hyperbolic characterization? You say there are many of these people saying those things, and that most of them call Obama supporters 'sheeple'
These are some strong accusations to level without offering any support for your verbiage against DU and Duers.
Can you show anyone saying he is a saint or above reproach or anything like that? If not, why don't you just crank that rhetoric maker down to a lower setting?
I get sick of this indulgent and accusatory extreme language. It is without merit.

[FLyellowdog]

123. Come on, folks...get a grip.

"The thing that frightened me is that THIS is the kind of stuff that IS NOW being used AGAINST someone who dared to Step-Out-of-Line,
and the possibility that this kind of stuff is being collected, compiled, and stored under the protection of Homeland Security Secrecy Blanket."

MAJOR FAIL. This information was not collected, or compiled, or stored by our government...It was a journalist digging up facts from public and/or interviews and/or searching online.

…There were no interviews with high school associates, no new photographs, and no status updates from his Facebook or Twitter accounts, if indeed Snowden had any….
….Public records offered some clues about Snowden's background. Campaign finance data indicated Snowden made two donations, each worth $250, to the campaign of Ron Paul, the staunch libertarian Republican…
…Some details emerged on Monday about Snowden's girlfriend, with whom he shared, in his words, a "a very comfortable life" in Hawaii, until his disappearance less than three weeks ago…
…The couple lived in a house blue house with a neat lawn in Eleu Street in Waipahu. Snowden said he was earning around $200,000. "We occasionally saw him as he was coming or going, or checking mail, or getting the garbage," a neighbour, Carolyn Tijing, told local station KITV. Others described Snowden as private…
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/11/edward-snowden-what-we-know-nsa

Calm down. These types of posts do nothing but spread misinformation. What's the point of that? Geez.

[MannyGoldstein]

133. Did he consort with known thespians?

Was he a Homo Sapien? Wouldn't surprise me.

(You rock. Really great piece.)

[woo me with science]

135. He masticates in public, too. nt

[MannyGoldstein]

136. OH GOD, NO!

In *public*?

Think of the children! THIS MUST NOT STAND.

[Uncle Joe]

134. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, bvar.

[pmorlan1]

144. Pathetic

Wow, that's pretty pathetic. I'm glad I missed that thread. Of course we knew that the empire would strike back. I've seen all kinds of stories that were put out just to distract people from the real story. I've also seen some online video where people are pushing back on this nonsense. I saw two really good videos online tonight. One I posted in another thread was from an MSNBC show where one of the guest or regular participants (I don't know which because I don't watch TV) really took one of the other people on the show to school on the NSA issue. The other video was from I think CNN where Jeffrey Toobin was talking nonsense and the other guest, Kathleen McClellan wouldn't let him get away with it. She kept bringing it back to the REAL issue. Here are the links in case someone wants to watch.

http://digbysblog.blogspot.hk/2013/06/ari-melber-says-count-me-out.html

&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Ok, Ill try this again.

I can't get it to work...Here is the name of the You Tube video. It really is worth watching.

Is NSA leaker a hero or traitor?
CNN·46,787 videos


Published on Jun 10, 2013
CNN's Jeffrey Toobin and Kathleen Mcclellan debate whether the NSA leaker handled himself appropriately.

[timdog44]

150. I think the whole point

of your post is to not prejudge. I am guilty of it, and lots of times end up feeling ashamed. I just think there is a lot more to this picture than what is being told. The things you mention of him are not anything to get heated about in judging a person and I agree with you on that score. I know lots of people who would fit that bill.

I am still waiting for this to play out. I just don't have good feelings about this in my gut. But what the hell, I am in the middle of trying to sell my house and buy another, so my guts are not always in tune right now.

[mtnester]

158. Not a GD host, but am on the fence, so my vote would be leave

[Smarmie Doofus]

159. Kick, Rec. n/t

[In_The_Wind]

160. Yes. DU post were frightening 6/10/13.

[Puzzledtraveller]

164. The argument has now shifted

At first it was justification , then it was nullification by discrediting Snowden, now they pretty much just dropped the pretense and are now just saying what they wanted to say all along, they think Obama is being attacked and they are upset about it. It's about the man to them, that's all.

[Maedhros]

233. I can't figure out their argument.

They say he's a leaker who has damaged national security by revealing the inner workings of the NSA, but then say that the programs he exposed are public knowledge and nothing to be outraged about.

Which is it?

[sulphurdunn]

165. Attacking

the arguer rather than the argument is possibly the most common logical fallacy. I heard someone dismiss Bradley Manning and explain that he must be a traitor because he was "a scrawny little fairy who no one liked." I think the ad hominem attacks will be much worse for Snowden, as he poses a much greater threat to the security state.

[davidpdx]

167. And some people chose to believe Glenn Greenwald is a hero

It's too bad people are gullible.

[zeeland]

171. CNN is trying to discredit him because he claimed to make $200,000

a year when Booze Allen claims it was $122,000.

One word, BONUS. Many people receive a salary
and then a performance bonus.

Before they see his tax returns how bout STFU

[Puzzledtraveller]

181. It's pathetic isn't it?

As if his intent on blwoing the lid off this thing was to discuss his personal finances in exact detail. I generalize about details in my own life, how much I earn being one of them.

[bvar22]

236. It is a sign of desperation.

It would be laughable if the future our Democracy wasn't Hanging-in-the-Balance.
It CAN happen here.
It IS happening here.

Each step toward the Surveillance/Security State is a step that becomes increasingly harder to undo.

What is frightening is the numbers of Good Germans cheering it on.


[font color=firebrick size=3][center]"If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for,
at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them."
--- Paul Wellstone[/font][/center]
[center][/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center][/font]

[font size=5 color=firebrick]Solidarity![/font]

[DCBob]

180. This type of information is easily obtained.

Its called Google.

[Apophis]

188. It's sad to see so-called liberals try to discredit a whistle blower here on this site.

I don't care about Snowden's personal life. I applaud his courage for blowing the whistle on how far the govt. monitors us.

A huge k & r.

[carolinayellowdog]

190. rec #200 n/t

[backscatter712]

195. K&R! The assholes here trying to slime Snowden are pure fucking scum.

They think they're soooo clever in coming up with new angles of attack, trying to impugn this man's character.

The truth is that they didn't expose anything at all about Snowden's character. They hardly know a thing about him.

But they exposed quite of bit of their own characters, or shall I say, their lack of character.

When you're impugning and sliming a person you only know through a few CNN soundbytes, that says to me that you're a fucking piece of shit.

You're the kind of worthless scum that is almost the entire population of the Republican party. You're the cancerous rot on society that normalizes meanness, revels on cruelty, trades in bullying.

I would demean my own character by associating with you.

That's the reason for all my plonking as of late. I'm cleaning house. DU desperately needs fumigation.

Go ahead, hit the alert button, assholes. I'm using naughty language, and don't you know, I'm the bad person that's making DU suck.

[L0oniX]

216. Agent Mike has a huge group of followers here.

[bvar22]

250. Maybe Agent Mike has a bunch of socks?

Have you ever seen them all together in the same room?

[WinkyDink]

200. Here's another: "Lived in WinkyDink's area!"

AKA: the Lehigh Valley, PA.
http://articles.mcall.com/2013-06-10/news/mc-pa-ed-snowden-nsa-leak-20130610_1_fbi-agents-upper-macungie-township-public-records

FBI visits family of NSA leaker in Upper Macungie

Edward Snowden's father and stepmother alert their neighbors of the pending media storm.

NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden is pictured during an interview in his hotel room in Hong Kong on Sunday.

NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden is pictured during an interview in his… (REUTERS )

June 10, 2013|By Colby Itkowitz and Daniel Patrick Sheehan, Call Washington Bureau

The father and stepmother of Edward Snowden, the man who said he leaked news of the government's classified surveillance program, live in Upper Macungie Township and were visited Monday afternoon by two people who identified themselves as FBI agents.

Karen Snowden, 48, said the couple had been "bombarded" by media, including ABC's "Good Morning America," since the story broke Sunday.

[snagglepuss]

218. "lives in Winky Dinks area."

That really struck my funnybone. Thanks I needed that.

[emulatorloo]

205. So what? Dumbass POLITICO stories get posted here all the time.

People get into a huge lather over them, and the next day everybody figures out the story is full of shit.

[KamaAina]

215. 11. Rides his bike on the sidewalk

12. Doesn't separate his recycling
13. Wears socks with sandals
14. Colored outside the lines in first grade

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022983957#post21

[RILib]

220. my neighbor tried to put up a Dusk to Dawn 20 Million Candle Power Parking Lot Security Light

I have a neighbor like that.

I thought the original post you are writing about was bizarre. Not a nice neighbor? Who was that OP?

[sibelian]

222. One of his trouser legs is slightly too short.

His grandmother doesn't like marmalade.

HE PARTS HIS HAIR IN THE MIDDLE.

What does it mean, bvar22? WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

[GoneFishin]

224. He left the cap off the toothpaste.

[limpyhobbler]

238. you have hit the nail on the head sir.

That's one of most blatantly repugnant personal smear attempts I've seen around here. Truly chilling.

A sobering reminder that some so-called "liberals" can't be trusted to defend liberty.

[bvar22]

240. **The Jury is IN !**

Someone E-Mailed me the results:

At Tue Jun 11, 2013, 11:55 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

A truly FRIGHTENING post on DU today...."10 things to know about Snowden".
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022987781

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Open call-out thread, personal attack, meta DU, response about a thread as a new thread, and probably 8 or 9 other violations. We have (had?) these rules for a reason. This is aggressive bullying of the worst kind. if bvar doesn't like the thread, he should state so in the thread. For 10 years that rule has worked? Why are we abandoning all our old standards now? because one clique hates another clique? Come on. This is a clear cut case. I like bvar, but this is 50 ways out of bounds, even if we set 99% of the content aside.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jun 11, 2013, 12:03 PM, and the Jury voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: It was a tough choice, but I had to ultimately choose "leave it".
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: On first read, I thought it was thoughtful. But after reading the alert, I now agree that it is a post complaining about another post and should appear in the OP. The disagreements with the OP seem valid though, so I say hide it, but on a technicality.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Oh quit yer whining. Bvar rocks.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

Thank You!
--bvar22


[font color=firebrick size=3][center]"If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for,
at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them."
--- Paul Wellstone[/font][/center]
[center][/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center][/font]

[font size=5 color=firebrick]Solidarity![/font]

[truedelphi]

256. Crikey - glad to see you squeaked by.

However boilerbabe mentioned that if nothing else works, the "G" word might be dragged out to punish Snowden, and that post got hidden.

I couldn't friggin' believe it. Like no one in the espionage word ever got hurt by those accusations before, well, except going back to Alan Turing, one of the top code breakers in Britain, and a man who was in part the father of modern computing. Committed suicide, he did, after being hounded for his homosexuality.

I guess that those of us who remember history and are stupid enough to mention history can't help others learn from it!

[bvar22]

261. Thanks.

I knew it was going to be close.
I purposely left out the link to the other thread,
and avoided specific Screen Names.

I edited my original closing statement to eliminate a negative observation about the current state of DU,
and shut down after posting the OP to avoid being baited into a TOS violation.
I am finding it increasingly difficult to avoid screaming and cursing at some of them.

I was surprise when I logged on at about noon today after morning chores in the veggie Garden and found the thread still up,
and am delighted with all the recommends.

Despite the volume of posts from the conservative authoritarians,
and their ability to dominate, hijack, and SCREAM over the adults,
DU is STILL pretty much composed of "Fringe Leftists".
Thank You, DU.

My teachers in high school used to observe that I seemed to enjoy pushing the limits,
and had an uncanny ability of walking the line without falling over the edge.

[existentialist]

241. Agree, want to emphasize two points:

"Does it bother you that this personal data is being used in an attempt to discredit a Whistle Blower.
How did "they" dig up all this stuff so fast? "


Yes, it bothers me--that I suspect that some of the personal data is not so much dug up as made up notwithstanding. Some of those characterizations might apply to me (although I never donated to Ron Paul, but I did support Libertarians back in the 70s).


"If the government kept an updated file on everybody that contained a compilation of personal tidbits like this, then almost ANYBODY could be instantly discredited if there was ANY suspicion that they might step out of line."



And that, in large part, is precisely why what Edward Snowden has brought to public attention is important.

[tclambert]

242. Plus he kills off all the characters I like, starting with Eddard Stark.

No, wait, that was George R. R. Martin, that troll of a guy who wrote A Game of Thrones.

[whatdoyouthink]

243. They will destroy him before long

. Mr. Snowden is a Patriot and has sacrificed allot (Job/Country/etc.) - by just telling the truth. We Need to help if we can Sign the Pardon (I DID) Edward Snowden Petition @ http://www.snowdenlegaldefensefund.com

Needs all the help he can get

[AnneD]

251. Ephesians 6:13

For this reason, take up the whole armor of God so that you may be able to take a stand whenever evil comes. And when you have done everything you could, you will be able to stand firm.



Full Armour of God.....
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13Why take to you the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; …

My prayers go put to those that speak truth to power...the Bradley Mannings, Julian Asanges, and Edward Snowdens. I may on occasion be fooled by a lie but I know truth when I hear it.

[cantbeserious]

252. The Character Assassination Begins

eom

[1StrongBlackMan]

258. Reading this, and all …

The other threads on this topic … All I can say is, 2014 is dead to this board’s membership; job well done, Leakers (read: gop enablers).
I just hope the electorate, in general, is not so easily distracted as to the net advantages of flipping the House in 2014.