Republicans are playing Democrats like a fiddle

[Rosa Luxemburg]

It's all part of the strategy for 2014. They want you to start 'eating your own' and they know they can do this over citizens' right issues like the NSA scandal, the IRS scandal etc. Don't be duped.

[Comatose Sphagetti]

1. Well said.

[graham4anything]

2. It's the Bush families way of getting Jeb nominated. BTW, Rand Paul is part of Team Bush.

and if one follows the republican/tea party strategy, Paul Ryan will be the President in 2015 after they impeach
the President/VP and overthrow Boehner

[ucrdem]

46. +1

g4a I'm glad you're here.

[freshwest]

119. Same to all of you guys.

[awoke_in_2003]

111. If they overthrew Boehner...

which will never happen, Cantor will most likely take his place.

[byeya]

3. Yeah but some Democrats are supplying the music.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

10. Worse.

We are building and defending the very instruments of destruction they will employ against us.

[xtraxritical]

32. The number of posts here faulting the President for FISA data mining that was BUSH's baby

is just scary. At first I thought it was trolls but now I think it's just the folly of youth. I believe the President wishes Congress would change the law as only Congress can.

[premium]

80. Pres. Obama could, today, with the swipe of a pen,

issue an EO barring all Federal agencies from this data mining, and then call on the Congress to repeal the Patriot Act and replace it with something less intrusive on honest americans lives.
I'm curious as to why he hasn't taken this path.

[xtraxritical]

95. From Huffington Post...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/07/nsa-surveillance-program-oversight_n_3405716.html

[SlimJimmy]

101. The article only talks about the Congressional role, and doesn't address the issue

of an executive order that could limit the scope of the NSA snooping. Please point that out to me if I missed it.

[Skidmore]

114. Executive orders are only good for the duration of the term of the president issuing them.

People have fallen into the trap of thinking that the presidency is the equivalency of an absolute monarchy and that the president can issue law. He, in fact, has a very limited role when it comes to law. Congress writes passes the laws of the land. It is their constitutionally given job. I prefer that we insist that the law be changed and that the change be codified.

[SlimJimmy]

115. I agree with you, but while the President is pushing Congress to enact legislation

that would limit these privacy intrusions, he could issue an executive order limiting the NSA's actions in this regard. Why he hasn't done so, is quite puzzling to me.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

126. We have a Republican majority in the House

[premium]

172. True,

but, he could still sign an EO barring all federal agencies from data mining.

[heaven05]

97. wishing

is one thing, speaking UP and OUT for his constituency is another.

[rhett o rick]

120. "I believe the President wishes Congress would change the law as only Congress can."

And why do you believe that? He has made no such indication. He appears to have embraced domestic spying and the Patriot Act.

Only Congress can change the law, but the president has the power to decide on just how strongly to enforce. And he has signed off on all the extensions of the Patriot Act.

What make you believe that he wants Congress to change the FISA law?

[Andy823]

4. I agree

The more they can divide democrats, the more likely they think they can keep voters angry enough they won't vote, and then they win, like back in 2010. Sadly it seems that many fall for this crap and if they do it again next year, well think about what it would be like if republicans control the senate and house! If more republicans get elected as governors, if more states are controlled by a republican majority in state offices, and we can take a look at Wisconsin, Florida, Maine, and other states that are now being torn apart by republicans who won back in 2010 to see just how things would change, and it's not for the better.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

127. Yes, divide and conquer

[boston bean]

5. oh that is pure BS.

[Luminous Animal]

11. It is amazing the attempts being made to have us goosestep in line...

Even Rosa Luxemburg.

[siligut]

45. Say or think whatever you want, but vote

And vote for a Democrat. That isn't goosestepping, it is common sense.

[AlbertCat]

59. Hey, all I did was vote for the....

...SANE party. Period.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

128. I think that you are missing the point

[pnwmom]

103. Nope, it's realism. They know the Patriot act was passed with bipartisan majorities

but they can undermine Obama with his base by making it an issue now.

Three fake scandals early in Obama's second term -- and now this one, dating from 2007. It's got Karl Rove's stink all over it.

[hopemountain]

110. +100 n/t

[Rosa Luxemburg]

129. Ofcourse!

Rove is there

[morningfog]

6. When will Democrats ever learn to control the message? When will they learn to play

the game of politics? Why are they always being played? Why are the Dems forever on defense?

[boston bean]

8. because they defend republican bullshit. They aren't really against it.

As this latest NSA meta mining episode proves beyond a reasonable doubt, imho.

[RC]

68. Politics is not a sports game and should not be played as one.

Part of the reason we are in this mess is because too many people think this is only a game.
Instead of doing what is right, doing what they were elected for, representing the people that elected them, they treat us as pawns in a game that they are playing among themselves. They do not really care how it affects us, as long as we don't catch on and vote for them again. They win when they stay in office. It is that simple.

[One of the 99]

100. Because the corporate media

and the millionaire press corps adopts GOP talking points as fact.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

131. Someone has decided that the media will highlight this

as we know spying has been going on for some time.

[BeyondGeography]

167. On top of Benghazi/IRS/AP Leakgate

Plain as day that the plan is to thwart the outcome of the last election. We're dealing with nihilists who can not accept losing. Thank you for the reminder. Too many people on this board are utterly duped.

[jbond56]

7. Hook. Line. and Sinker,

Sad how many old posters are falling for it.

[Cooley Hurd]

34. I'm an "old poster"...

..have been here 11 years. What REALLY shocks me are the "old posters" who accept this garbage despite their cries of foul when this was being done by Shrub.

[jbond56]

88. What Bush did was unconstitutional.

Its sad but this has been legal since 2006. I'm not shocked that its happening. How do you change it? Supreme Court is a good place to start. Congress could do it. Short of that its the law of the land. So you think vote republican is the answer? This certainly isn't changing over night. Gerrymandering has made that all but impossible today. It will be years and that is the saddest part.

Everything on tv is being spun. Republicans are benefiting from this news cycle of 7 year old news.

[alarimer]

178. And it STILL is unconstitutional no matter that it's happening now under OBAMA.

Obama is a liar and a hypocrite. He claimed, when inaugurated in 2009, that this would be an administration that would be more open than any other. Instead, he doubled down on the secrecy, going after whistleblowers, etc.

I cannot believe how many people here justify this kind of stuff just because Obama is "their" guy.

[cheapdate]

90. Many people here on DU who you and others claim "accept" surveillance,

Patriot Act FISA provisions, continuation of massive NSA data mining, and all of the rest -- don't "accept" it at all, not in the sense of the word as you're using it, which implies agreement with and support of these activities. Speaking for myself, and I'm sure for many others who have made the arguments better and more clearly than I can, I would make immediate and drastic changes to the law if it was within my power to do so. The existing laws are too vague, too secretive, and too broad.

I agree strongly with the ACLU and others that the laws governing surveillance and the collection of telephone and communication data desparately need to be revised and updated to protect privacy and to ensure that legitimate law enforcement needs are limited to persons actually and demonstrably implicated in criminal activity.

I will support every responsible effort to challenge these laws and policies.

But I will not engage in the sort of self-destructive and ineffective campaign of condemning in the harshest language possible, president Obama and anyone who stands with him in respectful disagreement over this issue.

In March of this year, the Supreme Court rejected the plaintiffs standing to challenge the FISA amendments in a case brought by the ACLU, Clapper v. Amnesty International. The court split 5-4 along conservative-liberal lines. Surely we can all agree that keeping the presidency out of Republican hands is vitally important to the makeup of the Supreme Court.

If these laws are not repealed or drastically rewritten, there could come a time when respectful disagreement and conventional action to bring change are no longer a workable strategy. But that time is not now. The dire scenarios for what is POSSIBLE remain just that -- future possibilities. And I say that with complete recognition that these possibilities are real, serious, and credible.

Undermining the leader of the Democratic Party is in my view one of the best strategies to guarantee that these possibilities will come true under a Republican president with a unified Republican congress.

I don't believe that people here on DU are really divided on the issue of the importance of the Fourth Amendment and other civil liberties. I think that the appearance of a divide is false.

[jbond56]

91. Everyone should read #90

[Cooley Hurd]

94. ...and reject it for lack of actual facts.

[cheapdate]

105. Your rejection is duly noted.

I replied earlier, but self-deleted it upon realizing that no response is necessary. You haven't disputed any premise or argument of mine, rather you simply rejected it in whole due to a "lack of actual facts" as you put it.

[Cooley Hurd]

109. Facts are needed. I know... Fox News has rendered "facts" as optional....

...but in the "old Europe" mindset that we're on the cusp of a "new information age", I will ALWAYS request FACT as a prerequisite to anyone's weak argument.

[cheapdate]

116. You've posted three times in this discussion between you and I.

You haven't put forward a single coherent argument and you haven't meaningfully rebutted any premises or arguments I've put forward. And yet you feel you're justified in claiming mine is a "weak argument".

The facts in this case are generally not in dispute, this argument is largely over values. I'm satisfied that I expressed mine with clarity. You however have put forward nothing. I'd like to say it's been interesting, but it hasn't.

[Cooley Hurd]

93. bzzt...

Wrong-o, Marylou. I never EVER have claimed to "accept" surveillance. Try again.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

144. Congress is the branch that revises or repeals

Merely pointing out the agenda of the GOP. We need to be marching together in 2014. Early wake up call.

[SlimJimmy]

102. Been here seven years and think the same thing. When the previous admin was

doing this, it was 24/7 howls. Now ... not so much. As for me, I don't like it and want it to be stopped. If the NSA has a specific foreign target, and a FISA order, have at it. Otherwise keep your hands off of my data.

[xtraxritical]

117. Everybody's mining data, get used to it. Where do you think all your spam comes from?

[SlimJimmy]

118. I think I'll remain uncomfortable with my fourth amendment rights being violated.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

139. The spying thing

is old news being manufactured by the Republican/corporate-funded media in an attempt to derail us for 2014. They say "let's add it to all the other scandals"

[whatchamacallit]

9. Yes, any democrat who is upset about being spied on is a hapless rube

[Luminous Animal]

13. Republican spying is much much worse than Democratic spying donchyaknow.

[whatchamacallit]

15. You've obviously been possessed by an evil republican entity

[awoke_in_2003]

112. You professional leftist...

[1StrongBlackMan]

20. No ...

any Democrat who is repeating this narrative is a hapless rube ... YOU ARE NOT BEING SPIED ON; even if your phone records are reviewed.

[whatchamacallit]

23. So you claim

and will continue to claim all the way down the slippery slope.

[1StrongBlackMan]

26. I choose to live in the real world ...

rather than, quake in fear of the newest, latest fear fantasy.

[whatchamacallit]

27. I think not

Only those in desperate denial would claim a government continually tracking your whereabouts and contacts is 'not spying'.

[hughee99]

37. The government wants this info so they can "keep you safe" and you're willing to give up

some of your privacy. It sounds like you've chosen to quake in fear of an older fear fantasy instead.

[heaven05]

89. there

is something ominous, threatening and portentous about all of this political wrangling and back door spying. I wonder if in 1933-39 thinking, good people in Germany felt like they were on a slippery slope to fascism and eventual dictatorship. Not saying it will happen under this administration, yet since 2001 the progress of right wing ideology has marched on unabated and unchecked by us democrats. The Patriot Act is still with us, with spying on american citizens the norm of society. I've seen fantasy and what is being discussed about what is being done to americans is no fantasy. The monied few has big plans for us 'little' people. Period. Slowly but inexorably we slide, down.

[Mnemosyne]

160. They did feel that slippery slope. - They Thought They Were Free:

The Germans
1933 - 1945

by Milton Mayer

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn't see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don't want to act, or even to talk, alone; you don't want to "go out of your way to make trouble." Why not? - Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, "everyone is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there will be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to you colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, "It's not so bad" or "You're seeing things" or "You're an alarmist."

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can't prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don't know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.

"But your friends are fewer now. Some have drifted off somewhere or submerged themselves in their work. You no longer see as many as you did at meetings or gatherings. Informal groups become smaller; attendance drops off in little organizations, and the organizations themselves wither. Now, in small gatherings of your oldest friends, you feel that you are talking to yourselves, that you are isolated from the reality of things. This weakens your confidence still further and serves as a further deterrent to – to what? It is clearer all the time that, if you are going to do anything, you must make an occasion to do it, and then you are obviously a troublemaker. So you wait, and you wait.

much more at link:

http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Wer...

[heaven05]

173. thank you

Last edited Sun Jun 9, 2013, 11:02 AM - Edit history (3)

for this. From, 'They Thought They Were Free'. "The separation of government from the people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purpose. And all the crisis and reforms(real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter." Slowly the noose tightens.

[Mnemosyne]

177. Very welcome, heaven! It is chilling how much that book resonates today.

[heaven05]

179. yes

very chilling. Well some will finally believe, "forewarned is forearmed." I hope. Thanks teach, you are on it! And this was discussed in May of 06 on this very site. How soon we ALL forget.

[Mnemosyne]

190. I won't ever forget it. It has been heartbreaking to see the fall and be

laughed at as being an alarmist. I had several OP's disappear when I first started calling George W. Bush a war criminal, in 2005, iirc.

I had a great job offer then from the editor of the local paper. He asked me to work for him. I was told I could write about whatever I wanted. I turned in an article on the Geneva Conventions and the Nuremberg Principles and the editor went white as a sheet and never spoke to me again. Job offer gone.

We will get through it, heaven, but it will be a long hard road. And you are very welcome.

[siligut]

48. Nice post Oppenheimer

Just want to point out the futility of your objections

[A Simple Game]

42. And a short while ago no one was mining any of my data. They would of course

tell me if they were spying on me. That's what they do right, tell you when they spy on you?

Of course they didn't admit to what they got caught doing, until they got caught. I'm sure, just like you, that it can't go any farther than that.

Oh, by the way, maybe you should be careful how you word any replies to foreign posters on DU. You know, just in case.

[treestar]

38. You are not being spied on

Take an exaggeration and run with it until it becomes true.

So what are the limits then? What is the ideal in your opinion? What should Congress pass/repeal/ do to make a law that is fair and right? It is all right to have a CIA? If so, what can it do?

It wasn't wrong to out Valerie Plame right? She was spying on people. Where is it that the line is drawn here? I see a lot of ranting but no solutions offered.

[whatchamacallit]

41. That's an opinion

I don't share

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2970839

[treestar]

44. The government continually tracking your whereabouts is not even in contention here

It is not being done.

And you did not answer - just what are the limits? Can we have a CIA? An FBI? What should it be able to do?

[whatchamacallit]

55. That's your faith-based opinion

As far as the FBI and CIA are concerned, they functioned before they had these powers. Answer your own question about the limits, should they be able utilize and/or abuse any innovation?

[treestar]

58. YOu answer, you are the one saying they have too much power

Perhaps they do. But what can they do? It's great to complain but then there comes a time when you have to pony up about just what it is you really want.

You have to have some faith unless you plan to run the CIA yourself. We specialize in the modern world.

How far should it be able to go. It does not spy on all Americans at all times. How does it have the manpower for that? It does not.

What can it do then?

[whatchamacallit]

64. What can it do?

Apparently, thanks to the servile, anything it wants. Adieu.

[A Simple Game]

57. What are the limits? There lies the problem. They use super secret handshake courts

to set those limits. I thought everyone knew that by now. We aren't allowed to know the limits, just trust us, we have a D after our names.

If you don't know where and how the CIA and FBI operate perhaps you should find a different thread.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

132. Even if 'they' were

the corporations are spying on you more than the government. Every time you access a web site.

[backwoodsbob]

165. wow

you are comparing this to the outing of Valerie Plame?
I don't have words for that

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. So I should be pissed, outraged even, when a Republican President

Has congress pass the enabling act, but it's a-ok when a Democrat enforces if?

And yes, the USPA was the enabling act, and yes, I am equally outraged when either does it.

That thing called my rights are not a partisan thing.

Feel better though, I have not been a good democrat since 2009, and for professional reasons (and now civil rights reasons) will not join either party, I don't think in the foreseeable future.

[B2G]

24. Obama is doing more than enforcing it

He's institutionalizing it.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

135. If Congress passed it and enabled it

I guess Bush didn't veto it. The present administration would have to go back to Congress and say hey you guys please repeal the Patriot act etc. However, the majority of the population are happy that terrorists are being caught by this spying.

We need to get a majoirty of real Democrats in Congress.

[treestar]

40. Well yeah.

The country has continuity.

Then a Republican President, who honestly believes that welfare is wrong, should just stop the program upon his inauguration. Just stop writing the checks for it, even though it's the law.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. This program should have been defunded by congress

And laws written to deep six it.

The Barack Obama of 2008 even spoke in those terms, hell even during his lofty words of the first inauguration.

Too bad the real Barack Obama had no backbone to do what he promised when he had real majorities.

But I love the excuses. They remind me of Republican excuses circa 2003

In fact, they are similar.

[treestar]

61. Then why blame the President that congress did not do so?

Had Congress done so, he could have signed off on it.

At some point, Congress has to take some responsibility and we have to take some for Congress. That's how we got here in the first place. We have to elect the Congress that will cut back on national security.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Cause I don't know, he is the Chief executive

And NSA and company are part of he executive...and presidents can and do ask Congress for legislation.

He's not an innocent lamb here.

Once again, the excuses remind me of yes, free republic and the aol boards in 2003.

[treestar]

122. He is the Chief Executive, not Congress

Congress is a separate branch. So they have to vote to defund first. Then the President can sign or veto. That's the time to evaluate the President.

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. Slowly now

He can order, right now, the end of the PRISM program, and tracking of metadata, the same way Bush started both, with an executive order. All it takes is a letter, and a pen and a signature.

Alternatively, Congress (don't worry, they believe in keeping this crap as well) could defund all of it, and call for hearings and change the law. They won't either...Frank Church is dead, and his successors are benefiting from this crap, or have been voted out of office, or in a few cases...well...well it is getting that ugly, killed.

Now if you think this imperial President, a successor in a line of Imperial Presidents from both parties can't do a thing, that is your prerogative, and I might add...wrong.

[longship]

138. I am not too sure about that, my friend.

What Bush did with a pen stroke is now law by an overwhelming bipartisan majority from both Houses.

If President Obama issues such an executive order to not enforce the law, he could find his Solicitor General in the well of the US Senate presided over by Chief Justice Roberts. We already know that today's House of Representatives would likely make that happen.

And remember, the Patriot Act was approved in the Senate by 98-1, with only Russ Feingold voting Nay.

I don't think an executive order will do it this time. The political environment may be totally wrong for it. It certainly isn't the same as when W did his skullduggery. The House Republicans would be all over it. There'd be House Judiciary Committee hearings within a couple of weeks or so.

Is there any doubt about how the House would vote on articles of impeachment of this president?

[nadinbrzezinski]

140. They might be coming anyhow

Road Clemons twitter feed

Part 2: Discussed w/Editors that I should make good faith effort to i.d. those I heard and offer them response. Will take time

Part 1: for folks following my post today, want to set expectations. Writing my recollection of #NSA related convo on leaker & Greenwald

Part 3: Another person heard the convo and emailed me with same interpretation and concern about their convo and background

Part 4: Statement about 'disappearing' the journalist and leaker if he/she could be identified was offered as bravado, as disturbing joke

part 5: at least that was my view of it. More later. this will take a bit more time and wanted to let people know.
https://mobile.twitter.com/SCClemons/tweets

[longship]

151. Read the whole thing.

Clemens is not sure they were Intel community. Actually says one might be a tourist. Seems like this is still speculation, but Clemens seems to be putting his nose to the grindstone, to mix metaphors.

The Atlantic is a good outfit. Used to subscribe back when I could afford such things.

[nadinbrzezinski]

153. It will take a couple days.

I sent him the reference to what we started in Central America. If what he heard is true, if these were agents, and all that...negroponte started the lets disappear journos in CA, particularly El Salvador. So those are not ugly ducklings...

I just hope...for all kinds of reasons, it's nothing. But if true...oh my fracking god...we crossed the Rubicon the with of the Amazon and Mississippi combined!!!

[longship]

159. Or the River Styx, my friend. nt

[Union Scribe]

81. Why would he have done that?

The President supports these activities.

[treestar]

123. He does not clearly support them

He is willing to have the conversation. He is a thoughtful person willing to think about it. Just see what he said about it and you can see that is the case:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251310274

[woo me with science]

141. "He does not clearly support them." BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

You can't make this stuff up. You honestly can't even parody the apologism anymore.

It's the Twilight Zone....or, rather, Orwell




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http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021876414

From Bradley Manning to Aaron Swartz -- The Government's Inhumane Persecution of Brave Truth Tellers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022276941

The sight of Army helicopters and the sound of gunfire...on Houston's south side
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022276742

Kiriakou and Stuxnet: the danger of the still-escalating Obama whistleblower war
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022275570

Can the DEA Hide a Surveillance Camera on Your Property?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022237059

Social Media and the Stasi
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021888029

Homeland Security Wants to More Than Double Its Predator Drone Fleet Inside the US, Despite Safety/Privacy Invasions
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014312823

CIA Behind Bizarre Censorship Incident At Alleged 9/11 Plotters’ Gitmo Trial
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022280285

“I Am Wearing My Conviction As A Badge Of Honor.”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022275128

Meet the Contractors Turning America's Police Into a Paramilitary Force
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12525281

How Secrecy Corrodes Democracy
http://election.democraticunderground.com/101655009

Obama Quietly Issues Ruling Saying It's Legal For The FBI To Break The Law
http://election.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7545687

US Pulls Plug on Iran Cable News (Press TV)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014394770

DHS Watchdog OKs 'Suspicionless' Seizure of Electronic Devices Along Border
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022339091

Verizon revelations, Tim Clemente and the blackmail & intimidation of government critics
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022962685

Gathering AND storing. It is the storing that is most chilling,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022969195#post33

[Marr]

176. +1

[freshwest]

121. Electing a Congress like that takes too long.

...In short, if you’re still disappointed in Barack Obama, it’s only because you never understood whose job it was to produce change in the first place.

But don’t take out your own failings in this regard on the rest of us, by giving ideological cover and assorted journalistic love taps to a guy who believes the poor should rely on the charitable impulses of doctors to provide for their medical needs, including, one presumes, chemotherapy; or that America was meant to be a “robustly Christian” nation, but is being currently undermined by “secularists;” or who puts the term gay rights in quotation marks when he writes it, and believes states should be free to criminalize homosexual intercourse, and who is such a homophobe that he won’t even use the bathroom in a gay man’s house; or who has all but said that he would like to take America back to the early 1800s, in terms of the scope of government: a truly glorious time to be sure, if you were white, male and owned property.

Ya know, like some of the liberal “thinkers” who have, as of late, decided to praise Ron Paul.

http://www.timwise.org/2012/01/of-broken-clocks-presidential-candidates-and-the-confusion-of-certain-white-liberals/

Choose one or the other, the big government loving Democrats, or the civil libertarian's hero, Ron/Rand Paul. This only works if one can afford to skip all those other less important civil rights.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

137. It is basically down to Congress to change the laws

I don't think the President can change the laws himself. I guess he bound to enact them? The public are happy that terrorists are being intercepted.

I am not happy about this situation.

[heaven05]

180. you

are right. But, sadly, MOST people want to be led, even if it ends up on a road to ruin.

[nadinbrzezinski]

181. I know, I elect reps, people "elect" leaders.

Sad.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

133. We seem to have a Congress which is content with this?

After all Congress did pass this dreadful act. For 2014 we do really need to change the landscape.

[nadinbrzezinski]

136. True

[heaven05]

182. true

yet are there enough electable people out there who will be able to shun the MONEY from the monied class. Yes, I'm saying be able NOT to be bought off? In this world big money is quite an enticement to forgo principle and honor

[kentuck]

14. They see an opportunity.

No doubt about that .

But, with this latest "controversy" or "scandal", or whatever, it would not benefit the Republicans very much because they know Bush did the same thing, but without any approval from Congress or the judiciary. He should have been impeached. But Congress turned around and made everything he did legal with a simple vote.

That is the same policy that Barack Obama is using right now. They know they would look like hypocrites if they pressed this issue too much. In the end, I think it is to the Democrats advantage, because many Republicans agree with the more liberal Democrats that it should be discontinued in its present form. Nobody wants the nation to disarm but even moreso, they do not want our Constitution trampled upon.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

142. but

as you can see the Republican media is going full force with this and it is attempt to put doubt into the minds of voters. Now it is a dliemma for them 1) Spying catches terrorists 2) they are listening to my conversations. You can hear them around the water cooler.

[GoneFishin]

16. That is bullshit, twisting, and contorting to avoid admitting that we are being screwed

by our own party. The first step to recovery is admitting that you have a problem.

You are only slowing down the recovery with this hogwash.

Are the republicans assholes? Of course. But except for the wedge issues the dems are complicit. Stop making excuses for them, it only gives them cover to continue this crap, or maybe that is your intention?

[Rosa Luxemburg]

143. What?

[zbdent]

17. and the "liberally-biased media" is

organizing the world tour ...

[Fumesucker]

18. Exactly, if Democrats don't vigorously support an incipient police state then Republicans win

I don't understand why everyone can't see it like we do, it's so obvious.

[freedom fighter jh]

69. Well said.

Fumesucker, you have this way of cutting to an issue's core.

[ctsnowman]

79. lol NT

[cascadiance]

19. And this administration is also stupidly and/or COMPLICITLY being played like a fiddle too!

I won't be played with them... I will point out the crap that Republicans are pulling and try to separate that out and point out how Republicans are disingenuous LIARS on those topics aggressively, but at the same time, when this administration is playing along with the corporatist bastards instead of taking them on like they SHOULD be doing, I need to call them out too, and not play the same "partisan" gamesmanship that the Republicans want us to be playing to legitimize the partisan BS games they are playing.

Spying on citizens without cause is JUST PLAIN WRONG! I don't care who's doing it! And it NEEDS to be fixed now before it is too late and we've lost our democracy!

[Rosa Luxemburg]

146. We need a congress which

will get rid of the Patriot act. However, the spying as been going on - from Russia with love. I remeber the cold war!

[greenman3610]

21. we are suckers for the "they are all the same" bullshit

[cascadiance]

56. But we don't have to fit the "we are all the same" partisan BSers responding to it!...

The problem is if we respond in a partisan manner that just points back fingers at Republicans and not at the whole system of both parties when they both are part of the wrong doing, we fall in to the trap the Republicans want us to fall in to and legitimize their partisan crap, because we engage in it too then.

Time to stop the partisan crap, point out how they are all about doing that to Obama, but point out that we aren't going to be *stupid* partisans in supporting WRONG policies by this administration and other compromised Democrats as well, and that we have a higher set of standards we expect Democrats to play by, and we won't accept that makes them "more wrong" than Republicans when we call them to answer for these mistakes more than the Republican base calls their jerks to the carpet for screwing their base as well as the country at the same time in a partisan manner.

Domestic spying without warrant or cause is WRONG. We should never support anyone doing it.
Cutting social security is WRONG and doesn't help bring down our deficit. We shouldn't support our party or Republicans doing it.
Outsourcing jobs or supporting illegal employers or those that want to use slave labor "guest worker" programs so that the elites can get wealthier at all of our expense is WRONG, and doesn't deserve our support or shouldn't be used to "trade" for other partisan issue resolution.

The list goes on, but we need to be adamant that our party support us on these ISSUES! and if they don't, then we need to primary them.

And with the gerrymandering that has gone on in the last few elections, there should be far more districts where loyal democrats are all pushed in to, we should be able to get more truly progressive Democrats elected in those districts, and if any of them have remnants of more "diverse" districts before that are playing these corporatist games, they should be primaried and replaced with an Alan Grayson style candidate. Dennis Kucinich needs a new home. There should be an opportunity to give him one that will get rid of a corporate Democrat in the process where we no longer "need" one. Building up a stronger progressive caucus should be the first step towards taking back America and this party that has many members that don't feel they owe us anything and are more beholden to corporate America.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

147. True

[MuseRider]

22. If people do not stop to realize we are being played by both sides

we are done no matter what.

Duped by Republicans? LOL

[Rosa Luxemburg]

148. We are not done

we need to be aware. 2014 is crucial and we need to fight together against the Republican scum.

[MuseRider]

171. We need to get rid of the scum all around us

I would never at this point label scum as Republican. Too narrow a definition.

[delrem]

25. Republicans aren't playing this tune.

The D's are playing W's score, unedited, unchanged.
That's the D's choice, and only the D's choice.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

149. not exactly

[appacom]

28. Let's all focus on getting the vote out in 2014.

We live in a new world, one never anticipated by the founding fathers. The issues of privacy and national safety are difficult to thread, and the president is trying his best to achieve balance, but there are, remember, three branches of government and the founders deliberately made the executive branch weakest of all.

If we want to protect our civil liberties, then we need like minded folks in congress and in the courts. We will have neither if we don't get out the vote.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

150. EXACTLY!!!

We need to start working now for 2014 and not be distracted by all this crap.

[riqster]

183. ^^^THIS^^^

GOTFV!!

[Laelth]

29. Um ... no.

We did this to ourselves. Blaming it on Republicans, while convenient, elides the truth.

Obama isn't running for re-election. He's no longer under any election pressures. He could do the right thing if he wanted to. He could restore the 4th Amendment by simply standing down. As the executive, he could order the NSA to stop collecting this data. He has not. Why not simply agree with me that the President should just order the NSA to stop?

If he doesn't do so, he deserves all the blame he's getting from all quarters.

-Laelth

[zeemike]

30. Where the hell have you been.

They have been playing us for years, and you just noticed it now?

And they have done it on Guns Gays and God for years now and you did not notice it?

But now that we are concerned about Big Brother government given to us by a Democratic president you want to tell us all about it?....and convince us to support it because it is a GOP strategy...

Seriously, this is unbelievable.
We are being manipulated alright....to accept right wing principles.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

152. remember

there are some who have not lived through the cold war.

we are talking about the 2014 elections that's where we could make a difference - finally?

[zeemike]

168. Most ot this came after the cold war.

And it has been mostly sense 2000.
But I guess if you are getting played by it you probably did not notice it.

Do you remember before the last election how a owner of a chicken sandwich place made a homophobic remark and we all lined up to boycott it, and the tea baggers lined up to buy the sandwich?....you don't realize how that played us?...it mobilized their troops.

Just watch next summer....they will use the same guns gays or god on us....my guess is that they will stir up the atheist next....and they will do something to piss off the religious people...and of course we will be encouraged to back them up.

[Savannahmann]

31. I have to wonder.

Do you really think that the Republicans are so much more intelligent than we are? First, figure out how we got into this mess. We got into this mess because our President and our people in power decided to continue the abomination of the Bush Policy. That by the way is how we've gotten into most of our messes with this administration. Fast and Furious was a continuation of an asinine Bush Co plan. It was stupid under Bush, and it was dumber than crap under our people. We knew it hadn't worked, and we continued it.

Telephone Records being seized by the DOJ looks even dumber now. They had the information all the time.

Benghazi? Continuation of a Bush era CIA plan to arm rebels anywhere they happen to be.

Now this. Again, Continuation of Bush era violations of the Constitution.

After the first one, we should have figured out that it was a bad idea. But no, we keep on going down this path, and losing prestige, and losing faith of the American People. As I pointed out in another thread. If you hire me as a manager, I am blameless for everything that happened before I got there. I am absolutely responsible for everything that happens once I take charge. Now, you might be willing to give me a little time to get things running the way I want.

It's been more than four years, at this point, it absolutely is ours. We can't blame Bush anymore. We've had too long to make the changes, and we've had too many lost opportunities to make those changes. I said before, many times, that President Obama should have vetoed the PATRIOT ACT extension. The apologists like you all shout the same answer. If there was another attack, he'd be blamed for not acting.

Really? Let the Republicans argue that, and we argue the Constitution. Imagine this, the President gets on TV and says he just Vetoed the PATRIOT ACT because as a Legal Scholar, a man who taught Constitutional Law, he has no doubt that it is absolutely a violation of the Constitution. Then he says he is absolutely in favor of protecting America, and American lives. He outlines programs that would pass constitutional muster, and calls on Congress to authorize them.

President Obama finishes with. "My oath is to defend the Constitution, and I can not in good conscience allow this immoral, and unconstitutional spying on citizens of our nation to continue in direct violation of the 4th Amendment."

Let the Republicans explain why we need to invade everyone's privacy. Let them make the asinine arguments that the spying isn't that bad, and what do you have to hide? Let them be the party that shreds the Constitution, and we are the party that upholds the rights of the individuals. If an attack happens, President Obama blames congress for not authorizing the programs he laid out and asked for.

We win, because we have our privacy. The party wins because we are on the side of the individual, and the individual right to privacy. The Republicans are left arguing that the Constitution is an ancient document and the Government has to shred it, if they dare.

Instead where are we? We are making the Republican arguments for them. We are making the argument that the 4th Amendment doesn't matter. We are left holding the damned bag. And you know what else? We deserve to look like crap because we were more afraid of looking weak, than standing up for what we believed in. Now, where we go from here is strictly up to us. We can belatedly do the right thing, and take a ding because of it. Or we can continue the Bush policies, and find ourselves trying to explain why they weren't so bad after all. But what do we run on in 2014, and 2016? What is our motto to be? We're just like them, but nicer?

[TheKentuckian]

33. Hear, hear!

[graham4anything]

50. the people who were not smart were the ones to think the Bush family was stupid.

NO, they are NOT stupid.
That is how they won 2 presidentships (winning=seated), got Ralph Nader to siphon votes in 2000, are working WITH
Ron and Rand Paul to siphon votes in 2016 (and maybe give Rand the VP)

no, they are not stupid

[Savannahmann]

71. George W. was an idiot.

The people around him were smart, but George W. was a fraction of a degree above a functional moron.

[graham4anything]

73. That was the way his personna was created (read Fraud by Paul Waldman).

most likely 25% of the people who voted for him in 2000 thought it was 41 they were voting for

but saying W was or was not stupid, is a waste of time and energy as it matters little.

Eisenhower was just as inane as W, yet twice people picked Ike over the person who might have been smarter than any President,
that being Adlai Stevenson.

a real shame 1952 was.

[awoke_in_2003]

113. For once I agree with you. nt

[GoneFishin]

62. Agree 100% Savannahmann.

[whatchamacallit]

66. + Graham's Number!

Kick ass post!

[KoKo]

74. Good Points and..

"Instead where are we? We are making the Republican arguments for them. We are making the argument that the 4th Amendment doesn't matter. We are left holding the damned bag. And you know what else? We deserve to look like crap because we were more afraid of looking weak, than standing up for what we believed in. Now, where we go from here is strictly up to us. We can belatedly do the right thing, and take a ding because of it. Or we can continue the Bush policies, and find ourselves trying to explain why they weren't so bad after all. But what do we run on in 2014, and 2016? What is our motto to be? We're just like them, but nicer?"

[Major Hogwash]

77. Dude, the President can't veto laws that have already become laws.

The difference between President Obama and President Bush is that President Obama is following the letter of the law, while Bush didn't follow the laws at all!!!!!

Bush was spying on Americans before he even asked any court to allow him to --- 7 months before September 11, 2001.

In FEBRUARY of 2001!!

Bush was spying on Americans within 1 frickin' month of taking the oath of office.

[Savannahmann]

98. OK, let's review shall we?

President Obama signed the reauthorization of the PATRIOT ACT. So yes, he could VETO the bloody thing.

WASHINGTON — Minutes before a midnight deadline, President Barack Obama signed into law a four-year extension of post-Sept. 11 powers to search records and conduct roving wiretaps in pursuit of terrorists.

"It's an important tool for us to continue dealing with an ongoing terrorist threat," Obama said Friday

He could have Vetoed the bloody thing. He could have stood up for the Constitution. He could have stood up for Individual liberty. Instead he went along, and we're all suffering. Easier on him but much harder on us.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

155. corporate dominated Republicans/media control etc

The point is that we are not going to be played. Bipartisan garbage has been going on for too long. That's why we need to fight in 2014. This country needs a fresh start - Republican free.

[sibelian]

174. Excellent summary, +1

[Fuddnik]

35. Both parties are playing us rubes like a fiddle.

The old "Good cop-Bad cop" routine.

As long as they both have the luxury of pointing at the other side, we're the losers.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

157. Time for a change?

that's why we don't want to get side-tracked on this

[Politicub]

36. It starts sensationalized

and then the truth comes out that the NSA issue wasn't as bad or new as people were making it out to be. Every so-called scandal has followed this same sequence.

President Obama said it's for monitoring foreign contacts, and I believe him.

And multiple - more than a hundred - terrorist attacks have been thwarted. We don't know the scale of the planned attacks, but I'm grateful that the government was able to stop them.

Other terrorists are the mass shooters that are taking out scores of people in a very short time. Right wing extremists are another real terror threat. They are being propagandized by the NRA and the conservative media complex to whip them up to a frenzy. They have an arsenal of weapons, make direct threats against our president, and send ricin-laced letters to public officials and groups they disapprove of.

I trust our president, and have no reason to do otherwise. But I don't trust the new posters who don't even take the time to select an avatar, and only are here to be destructive, not constructive in any way.

[GoneFishin]

65. "NSA issue wasn't as bad"? I've heard this argument recycled but it doesn't wash no matter how

it is rephrased. PRISM is a new revelation. If you are not bothered by it then bless your heart.

... "then the truth comes out that the NSA issue wasn't as bad or new as people were making it out to be" ...

[steelmania75]

39. Well they've already gerrymandered the Congressional districts, so it doesn't matter.

Even when the Congressional Democrats got 1.4 MILLION votes over the Congressional GOP candidates in the 2012 election, the Congress is still Republican by about 17 seats.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

43. Maybe Obama shouldn't have handed midterms to the GOP on a platter

...by spying on all the people whose votes he wanted for Democrats in the midterms. Take it up with the Stasi spymaster, not the voters who have enough wherewithal to know that supporting such a regime can have lethal effects.

[forestpath]

108. +1000

[nenagh]

47. TPM linked an article written in Bloomberg Businessweek Magazine, Nov 22, 2011..

"Palantir, the War on Terror's Secret Weapon"..

It gives an example of how CIA agents, using Palantir, can use the program to investigate the actions of a presumed bomber...

It gives a great example of how the program can be used.

Now, the extent of the information is surprising.. But there is the Palantir program, outlined by Bloomberg in Nov 2011.

If I had the ability to link it I would do so.

[suffragette]

51. Perhaps the Democrats should stop providing the bow and rosin

Of continued support for Republican engineered policies.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

163. Rephrase.. to some

Well it's about real Democrats were elected to Congress.

[suffragette]

187. Like these Democrats, three of whom I voted for and who represent me?

4 lawmakers from Wash. twice voted against FISA


http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2021149079_nsadelegationxml.html



WASHINGTON — Four Democratic members of Washington’s congressional delegation have repeatedly voted against authorizing the kind of vast surveillance of electronic communications the National Security Agency conducted with cooperation from Microsoft, Google and other Internet companies.

The lawmakers — Sens. Maria Cantwell and Patty Murray, and Reps. Rick Larsen of Everett and Jim McDermott of Seattle — were concerned that emails, chats and other communications by Americans would get swept into a trove of intelligence gathered on foreigners. Among other issues, they also objected to giving Internet companies blanket immunity from turning over data obtained without warrants.

That unease prompted the four to vote against expansion of the post-Watergate Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) in 2008 and again in 2012. Congress passed the measures both times.


I voted for all except Larsen. He's not in my district, but I agree with him on this issue, too. And I am glad that Murray, Cantwell and McDermott provide the representation they do here.

They do not provide bow and rosin. Wish that was the same for all Democrats.

[wandy]

52. Hay, I'm safe. I don't use Verizon...................

Hay I don't even have a cell phone.
But don't you worry. If all goes as the GOP plans, Jeb Bush and Scott Walker will take good care of all you Verizon cell phone folk.

Stop. Think. Reason. Look beyond the crazy.

[Union Scribe]

82. Will you all defend them then?

By the same reasoning, they'd just be continuing a long-standing practice. That's why Obama's off the hook right? So why wouldn't Jeb Bush be too?

[wandy]

85. This is not about defending Obama.......

Even if it were something like background checks, something Obama wanted and about 90% of us wanted with him, he could do it himself.
An EO won't do it, their ain't no magic wand.
Striking a balance between security (needed) and privacy (demanded) will take careful, well thought bipartisan effort.
Right now theirs about a snowballs chance in hell of that happening.
Even if right now, you could write a bill that would be a sane replacement for the patriot act, what would be you're chances of getting it past the House?

Their is no point in defending or condemning Obama until he has the tools to take action.

[Union Scribe]

86. He. Supports. It.

This isn't like Guantanamo. It's not a case where he wants to do something but he isn't getting the backing he needs. He does not WANT to change this. So talking about 'giving him tools' is meaningless. He has the tools he wants: those used to mine data.

[wandy]

92. Ok. Now I'm not being a dick here. What's the plan?...........

You know this is a slippery slope. It will eventually come down to archiving the contents of all calls and E-mails.
That technology exists now. The excuse of only referencing it 'if their is just cause' and 'we have a court order', isn't gonna cut it.
We can be fairly sure that any Obama replacement will just want MORE.
Where does it stop? How many traffic cams per person is enough?
Do we all write our elected official. Ha! One phone call from a lobbyist renders that useless.
Impeach Obama and hope for the best. When have you ever heard of one of them giving up power.
Do we apply a 'First Amendment remedy' Generate enough data to flood the system. Not possible.

I might suggest that the first step is to understand and accept how very large a problem this is.
Accept the scope and history of the problem NOT the problem it's self.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

53. And, the NSA is spying on the people.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

145. It has been for some time

A few years ago I remember the major phone companies like Verizon going along with this and nobody batted an eyelid. The public were pleading with them to catch those nasty terrorists. THe question is why now and not then?

[MannyGoldstein]

60. Their plot for Obama to expand Bush's powers is *brilliant*

Never count them out, I guess.

[caseymoz]

72. Yes . . .

Given the intellectual giants they had running for president, one would think they couldn't defeat a lobotomized turtle at one dimensional chess.

[caseymoz]

67. Well, then it's a fu*cking great strategy.

It stuns me Republicans these days are that astute (I mean, look at their presidential candidate line up), but that's irrelevant because the trap that's so well baited you must fall into it is always the worst kind.

Oh, were you thinking we could simply let our rights be destroyed forever to defeat the Republicans? You're wrong. I will resign from this site first. And others have already done it.

Solution: persuade Obama to take a different course before 2014, or be prepared to try to win while being played like fiddle. Judging by your support for Obama, you might even enjoy it.

[GoneFishin]

70. Get with the 3D chess program. All we have to do is lose everything,

then we WIN! Yay!

"Oh, were you thinking we could simply let our rights be destroyed to defeat the Republicans." ?

[Skittles]

75. ever think it might not be and either / or scenario?

that BOTH PARTIES are fucked up?

[KharmaTrain]

76. They're Playing The Corporate Media Who...

...is playing those who want to be outraged. It's yet another "scandal" that already has filled hours of airtime and millions of electrons on blogs about how everyone is being spied on. It's the typical game of creating sensational headlines before the facts are known and when they do come to light they are downplayed or portrayed as a weak defense. For the partisans this becomes the latest game in a time when there are few real "sexy" issues to get outraged about. For those on the unhinged right, this is yet another "example" of whatever demon you've long ago assigned to this President...and on the "professional" left or those who just don't like Obama it's yet another "sell out"...usually from people who never liked or those whose special interests haven't been addressed to their satisfaction.

All in all, we're in the outrage season. In the media world, we're a long ways from the next elections and the only way to keep eyeballs to the teevee is to manufacture scandals or amp up whatever they can. For a vast majority, they not only couldn't be bothered with this bullshit, they're tired of it...but for those who want/need red meat against this administration, it's open season...

[LittleBlue]

78. Then let's end the issue right now

So that it can't be exploited in 2014.

Democrats, unlike Rethugs, will never sit idly as their freedoms are taken.

[Douglas Carpenter]

83. you mean it's not true? They just made this NSA stuff up?

These reports about the massive surveillance by the NSA are BS?

[MisterP]

84. Gustav Noske?

[MotherPetrie]

87. Duped how?

[Cha]

96. That would be some Democrats.. and some have even left the Party..

As far as not being duped.. it's too late.

[Lifelong Protester]

104. Not being played here, but still angry

I realize the whole idea of privacy is 'quaint' but I still find value in it.

[mfcorey1]

106. These are orchestrated turbulent times for Obama's administration, but I will

not abandon ship. I will stand with him because I am convinced that he has the security and well being of the American people as his first priority. Scoundrels can say what they will. This too shall pass.

[still_one]

107. Democrats have never walked link n step, depending on the issue.

[kickysnana]

125. If we are playing only politics you are right, if we are playing how do we turn this thing around

you are wrong.

Obama was the wrong choice for America and for the Democrats who voted against the Republicans and we need to make quite sure that everyone knows that so that they don't stick us with a clone to vote for in the future.

Yeah the silver tongued fellow is easy on the eyes and throws some bones to his voters but he does not represent our interests, hardly at all and chose to appease, join with and make nice. over doing what was right, what was best what was hard. I had hoped that the "Constitutional Scholar" in him would triumph. I had hoped that he would purge the people who make it impossible for him to act other than the way he is acting. Instead he appointed many more. Now that he is in his lame duck term what you see is what you get a Man who wanted to be President and play the power game and forget the rest. He could have made a difference, he could have been great he, has the tools he just didn't have the vision, the grit.

How long do we elect Democrats that think rights, and the safety net is negotiable? When do we elect Democrats who believe in the Constitution, real freedom and the right to privacy and free speech? You know what made America different and made America great.

[DirkGently]

130. Stock Response to Obama Adjacent Critique #17!

#17 Appeal to Loyalty, e.g., "By acknowledging this critique, you're only ensuring Republican victory in 20__!"

[Puzzledtraveller]

154. I am beginning to wonder if some aren't on a payroll

Not this OP but there has been some fresh accounts that seem to be full on damage control here.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

161. well

this op is a wake up call for us in 2014. We need to take congress or else.

[Cha]

134. The gopropaganda machine has done a fucking lousy job in Congress

and want to make sure that opportunity isn't taken away from them.

Thanks Rosa

[DisgustipatedinCA]

156. Which Republican is masterminding this?

Which GOP'er is in charge of the Obama Mind Control Protocol? Which Republican is Glen Greenwald's handler? Which one is the brains behind the strategy? Tell me all you are able to about Republican control of The Guardian.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

158. You tell me

[DisgustipatedinCA]

162. You're the one who made the claim

It seems to me Obama has probably caused some harm to congressional Democrats by secretly spying on their constituents, but since you have an alternate theory, I thought I'd ask you about it.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

164. First of all

I would try to get real Deomcrats elected to congress. Then get rid of the Patriot act and all the other stuff that Bush and Congress approved.

However, the issue before us is that some Democrats are now not going to try in 2014.

Meanwhile, remember the general public like the Patriot act.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

166. Thank you

I think we may be talking about different things, but thanks for the reply.

[MisterP]

189. in the 1870s it was the Vatican that was supposed to be controlling all the county governments and

education and cities

from the 1950s to the present (see Mitrokhin and the Washington Times) it was the Kremlin that was in charge of Democrats, Republicans, churches, universities, the UN, the media, the military, the lower class, the middle class, and the upper class

since the 70s (or was it 90s?) the Palestinians suddenly are seen as pulling the strings at Hollywood, the UN, the South African government, and the Catholic Church

and now Rove manipulates Democrats into opposing the passing of Republican policies in order to get a Republican win that'll pass Republican policies: the left is a tool of the far right, and the poor oppressed put-upon hardworking center-right is the ungrateful left's only hope: Gore and Greenwald are Rove's main dupes on this (but we knew Gore was a GOP mole when he said that Nader wasn't to blame for 2000: any good Loyalist knows that we have to accept any police-state measures or aggressive wars coming from the Dems if it means avoiding another Scalia or Rehnquist, even though they were blameless when Nader forced Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris into stealing Florida)

the actor changes, but the same basic pattern of this paranoid style continues: it's so nutty that Philip K Dick made fun of it

[madrchsod]

169. i did`t know we were electing obama.....

the 2014 elections are about the states not the white house. why in the hell would the local and state parties and voters be played?
anyway by the time things get geared up and going for 14 there will be new fake outrages.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

184. it didn't say anything about Obama

we are talking about 2014. Congress passed the laws.

[tblue]

170. Wouldn't be such a problem if

our Democratic politicians acted like Democrats. They give them all this fodder. Nobody wants to vote for RepublicanLite.

[Sunlei]

175. yup, meanwhile at the very local level Rs control the communities.

many counties are so segregated now by race and class it's crazy. zoning and neighborhood associations regulate the unwanted locals every move.

[burnodo]

185. What a poor opinion you must have of your fellow Dems

to think their all easily fooled and manipulated

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

186. Yep. And, the White House calls it Bi-partisanship and compromise.

[UTUSN]

188. perfect o.p. nt