I just left the Democratic party over NSA spying

[usregimechange]

I will support no party that supports the evisceration of the 4th Amendment. I won't volunteer, I won't contribute, until the rank and file of the party opposes and ends this practice, don't bother calling me.

[ProSense]

1. I already miss you. n/t

[TeeYiYi]

6. Did you forget...

...that sarcasm thingy?

TYY

[theaocp]

8. As well you should.

Enjoy a smaller tent. I'm awaiting your next snide remark with bated breath.

[bvar22]

51. Welcoming Rock Ribbed Republicans like Lincoln Chaffe last week,

..and dismissing loyal Democrats with traditional Democratic Values of protecting our Constitutional Rights?

...and we wonder HOW the Democratic Party became so Conservative.



[font color=firebrick][center]"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone [/font][/center]
[center][/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center][/font]

[Yo_Mama]

154. Yeah, massive NSA spying is too conservative for me

Sorry, but I won't support this policy. It was wrong when the Bush administration was going this way, and it's wrong now.

As far as I'm concerned, it's always going to be wrong. We are violating policies and understandings that arose out of the concern over the J Edgar Hoover FBI excesses and the like. If that was wrong, this is wrong.

With each administration, the screw tightens again. It's unnecessary. We are letting the political culture morph us into a totally different society.

When you give the government this power, it will be misused sooner or later. Generally sooner. And with each step over the line, the line moves. I personally thought that Obama's election was going to push back against this. I was wrong.

I'm not going to accept it.

[brush]

255. An operative's cover was blown

Didn't that reporter Rosen out an operative that had managed to become a mole in North Korea, an almost impenetrable country, and the people working with the agent were also exposed, as was the whole operation?

There was more to it than the big bad Obama monitoring call logs. Lives and to a degree, national security were involved. The reporter's hands are not clean on this as journalists know not to cross certain lines when it comes to these kinds of stories. Apparently the desire for a scope was more important thing to that particular reporter.

I don't see much difference between what Libby and Cheney did to Valery Plame and this.

Perhaps our outrage is misdirected.

[Yo_Mama]

294. That has nothing to do with this

Unless the new response to a leak within the administration is to get the phone records of everyone in the country.

That's ridiculous.

No, the only thing wrong with our outrage is that we haven't already hit the streets and marched to DC and demanded an end to this.

If the FISA courts will issue warrants for everyone's information, then the FISA courts are no protection at all. This did start under Bush, but we're doubling down.

[brush]

362. I'd say if an agent's cover was blown has something to do with it.

There's got to be someway that covert operations aren't disclosed by scoop-seeking reporters.

[Yo_Mama]

380. That's a different warrant and a different snooping op

Really, THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS.

[RKP5637]

256. We've been taking step after step, sometimes large, sometimes small, but step after step

to a huge surveillance state. SOS IMO, just different names/faces.

[movonne]

338. Then vote for a repug...no social security, no gay

rights and no abortions....

[Yo_Mama]

379. I'd prefer to vote for a liberal

I believe we can get 'em in office.

[Tarheel_Dem]

405. When is the last time "a liberal" won the White House? You'll remember Al Gore couldn't pass....

the "Liberal" purity test back in 2000, now he's celebrated as as Liberal lion. I think smart Democrats have caught on to the fact that there's a faction of the left who have strenuously been trying to bust up the Democratic Party since Ralph Nader's efforts. Of course they can't win, but their chief goal seems to be to stop Democrats from winning.

[Yo_Mama]

410. It's not the White House, which is important

It's Congress. Under our system, it's Congress that has the most power.

I don't see why anyone would think that arguing a point of view about policy would or should imply busting up the Democratic party. No, popular input determines the policy positions of the Democratic party, as well it should for a party named "Democratic".

Looking at something and saying "no, I don't think this is a good idea" is not disloyalty to the party. It's part of the process necessary to sustain a viable party.

[Ikonoklast]

246. Elizabeth Warren.

Was a life-long Republican voter until 1995.

[fjlovato]

306. We live and learn

Maybe she learned to read since then and became a Democrat or the Republican Party left her. There used to be real honest Republicans - I remember them real well.

[bvar22]

307. If Lincoln Chaffe had changed anything besides the letter after his name,

you would have a point.
But he hasn't.
Chaffe hasn't had an epiphany of an evolution.

I don't know much about Warren pre-1995,
but it is a safe bet that she wasn't FOR tough Banking Regulation..

Enlighten us all.
Where has Chaffe evolved and abandoned his Republican Values to embrace the Liberal values of FDR or LBJ?

OR
has the Democratic Party taken ANOTHER step to the Conservative Right to accommodate ANOTHER Republican
who NOW feels right at home in the New Democrat Centrist Party?



[font color=firebrick][center]"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone [/font][/center]
[center][/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center][/font]

[Vietnameravet]

339. He supported same sex marriage and has been a proponent of gun control..

[ctsnowman]

302. X2

[Spitfire of ATJ]

180. "bated breath."

Never use that term.

It invokes images of a mouthful of worms.

[Rowdyboy]

222. Robin Williams as Mork from Ork once referred to waiting with "worm on tongue"

i.e. "bated breath"

[Bay Boy]

301. That would be...

...baited-breath. I know that because I am a master-baiter.

[Tarheel_Dem]

326. +10000

[cui bono]

340. So you think it's funny that the Dem party is doing such things as to make people disgusted

enough to leave? It's something to poke fun at and laugh about?

So, you support warrantless wiretapping?

[Tarheel_Dem]

381. Do you know what a "warrantless" wiretap is?

[cui bono]

415. Do you think this topic is funny?

[Tarheel_Dem]

429. What I find hilarious is the fact that you don't seem to know WTF you're talking about, and you're..

proud of it?

[cui bono]

431. You're making a lot of assumptions and yet continue to fail to address what was originally

asked of you.

And, if I am wrong about something then correct it and have a discussion, if that's what you want. But I don't think that is what you want, you just want to be snarky, clearly. You came into this thread acting like a junior high school kid who just found the internet and how to post comments. You laugh about something that is of the utmost importance for the continuance of democracy, something that is basically a police state, and then just continue to throw out snark rather than discuss anything.

So clearly there's no point to any of this. I just hope you will realize how important this topic is before it's too late for all of us.

[Logical]

377. LOL, Obama could suggest planting a camera in every house...

And you would post 100 cryptic links to reasons it was a great plan!

[Art_from_Ark]

420. And 50 of those links

would be links to her own posts

[Logical]

424. LOL, so true! n-t

[bbinacan]

2. I can certainly understand. n/t

[rightsideout]

3. But, but . . .

All this NSA spying started in 2006 during the Bush Administration under the Patriot Act.

But true, Obama should have kicked the rubber stamp in the gutter.

[chillfactor]

42. actually the spying goes all the way back many many years.....

as far back as Joe McCathy and J.Edgar Hoover....

[oldhippie]

74. Yes .....

I was associated with the intel community in the 70's and No Such Agency in the 80's and it was going on before that.

[bluemarkers]

249. and what president

no matter what party would ever reduce his/her powers?

This is the perfect illustration of how Congress is full of short sighted dumbasses. Apparently not one arrogant goper realized that one day a Democrat might be president, or that one day democrats may control both houses.

(imo, Hoover's paranoia is a lasting legacy.)

[cstanleytech]

272. Oh I think they were well aware that even if a democrat came into office that

they could either tempt them into continuing the use of the program and or hinder any efforts to stop the program.
And to be honest logs of who has called who isnt a really big issue for me, the thing I object to is actual recording of conversations I had or private text messages as those should require a warrant and or the person or persons involved should be notified about the warrant immediately or at most within 90 days of such a warrant being granted.

[oldhippie]

273. Surprisingly, speaking of what President ...

("The Ranger's not gonna like this, Yogi.&quot

History

The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) was introduced on May 18, 1977, by Senator Ted Kennedy and was signed into law by President Carter in 1978. The bill was cosponsored by the nine Senators: Birch Bayh, James O. Eastland, Jake Garn, Walter Huddleston, Daniel Inouye, Charles Mathias, John L. McClellan, Gaylord Nelson, and Strom Thurmond.

The FISA resulted from extensive investigations by Senate Committees into the legality of domestic intelligence activities. These investigations were led separately by Sam Ervin and Frank Church in 1978 as a response to President Richard Nixon’s usage of federal resources to spy on political and activist groups, which violates the Fourth Amendment.[4] The act was created to provide Judicial and congressional oversight of the government's covert surveillance activities of foreign entities and individuals in the United States, while maintaining the secrecy needed to protect national security. It allowed surveillance, without court order, within the United States for up to one year unless the "surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party". If a United States person is involved, judicial authorization was required within 72 hours after surveillance begins.

---- snip -----

The Act created the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC) and enabled it to oversee requests for surveillance warrants by federal police agencies (primarily the F.B.I.) against suspected foreign intelligence agents inside the U.S. The court is located within the Department of Justice headquarters building. The court is staffed by eleven judges appointed by the Chief Justice of the United States to serve seven year terms.

Proceedings before the FISA court are ex parte and non-adversarial. The court hears evidence presented solely by the Department of Justice. There is no provision for a release of information regarding such hearings, or for the record of information actually collected.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act

[cui bono]

342. What point are you making?

What you bolded shows that they signed into law something that allowed spying without a warrant, but what you failed to include in that bolding, which follows immediately, is " unless the "surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party". If a United States person is involved, judicial authorization was required within 72 hours after surveillance begins."

Still not the best, but not what your out of context bolding suggests.

[cui bono]

343. I honestly believe Kucinich would have.

And if Grayson were POTUS I think he would. And probably Elizabeth Warren. And if they were threatened to not do so, or do certain things, I think they would take that to the people.

[nebenaube]

281. Bill...

.

[sabrina 1]

225. Except that a law was passed, signed by Ford actually airc, that made such spying without a warrant

illegal. THAT law was violated by Bush when it was revealed that he had used the telecoms to spy on the American people. A whistle blower revealed that crime and it was a big scandal at the time with most Democrats, including this president, condemning it.

For a short while we thought something good might come of the exposure and the reaction even among Conservatives at the time. The Telecoms were in trouble, the law required eg, that if the law was violated they would have to compensate the victims with $1,000 if I am remembering correctly and of course people began to prepare law suits.

But unfortunately, Congress came to the rescue. They passed the FISA Bill which was retroactive, back to before the crime was committed, making warrantless 'surveillance' legal, at least no need to get a warrant until LATER, after the spying was done.

So no, it does not go all the way back to the McCarthy era. We learned something from Nixon's spying and back then Congress and even a Republican president saw fit to try to stop it by passing a fairly decent law.

We have deteriorated rapidly since the Bush years and our hopes of having his 'laws' rescinded by electing Democrats have been proven to have been very naive. Obama, who once opposed the Telecom spying, ended up voting for the FISA Bill.

It is now up to the people to decide, is this the kind of country they want or is it not? I see democrats here now defending what they once opposed. But how do the majority of people feel about their telephone companies spying on them? We will soon find out.

Ari Fleischer congratulated Obama tonight for 'protecting the American people'. No doubt very pleased to see his boss's disastrous policies validated by a Democratic Administration. Paul Begala otoh, expressed shock that Obama, who he correctly stated was once 'completely opposed to such policies' now supports them. He stated that he would like to hear an explanation from Obama. I think he forgot that Obama voted for that vile piece of legislation. Can't say I blame him, it was something we all tried to forget.

[Wait Wut]

4. Okay.

But, this is still Democratic Underground.

I will still support Democrats. I will still vote for, volunteer for, donate to Democrats. There are other web sites available for nonDemocrats.

[quinnox]

12. you don't have to be a Democrat to post at DU (eom)

[FSogol]

18. You know that from personal experience Q?

[quinnox]

29. I simply have read the terms of service

and have been here for a long time, so am aware of this stuff. I like to correct the misrepresentation that many seem to have, or pretend to have in threads like this, that you must be a Democrat to post at DU. It never has been the case, at least, ever since 2002, when I first joined.

[FSogol]

34. LOL: You Better Believe It!

[Bluenorthwest]

83. We have members who are not legally able to vote in the US, so they are not

Democrats and have never cast a Democratic vote. Would you refuse them participation?

[FSogol]

108. Of course not. n/t

[quinnox]

89. would you really want to bar foreign people, such as Canadians for example, from DU

I doubt it.

[FSogol]

110. No, but all the Repubs should be kicked out. Not just the distrubtive ones.

But I guess, you'd have to take that up with the admins.

[frylock]

138. are you familiar with the green party? peace and freedom? perhaps socialist workers?

i'm registered as 'decline to state' myself.

[FSogol]

147. What do this have to do with anything? Q asked if Canucks should be kicked out. I replied.

When did I say anything about greens, independents, etc?

[frylock]

151. i had assumed from the post i replied to that you were under the impression..

that the only people posting here were either democrats or republicans. I apologize if I misinterpreted you.

[FSogol]

153. I was ribbing Q since he seems to swing derecha. n/t

[Union Scribe]

203. That isn't ribbing.

That's attacking.

[FSogol]

331. Hyperbole! It's not just for breakfast anymore!

[Union Scribe]

370. "ribbing" has a friendly connotation

And what you do when you question people's motives/loyalties/etc. is anything but friendly.

[rhett o rick]

214. Only one. nm

[Generic Other]

321. So which DUers make you barf?

Those who happen not to agree with you? Those who mostly have tried to hold our party accountable to a standard of behavior that is higher than what we witnessed in the Bush years?

[roody]

33. Yes, I am a registered Green. Have been

for 10 years.

[cprise]

316. Interesting time to switch

After the 2000 vote fiasco, I realized the Gore team's defence was half-hearted. Then Dems lined up for the Iraq War and that was too much for me. The Greens were holding anti-war rallies and that's when I started to (strategically) vote for them.

Funny thing is, I remember one day in 2000 getting screamed at (in a LGBT gathering in a restaurant) by a rather fine Green lady for suggesting everyone throw their support behind Al Gore. By 2002 I had finally "got it".

[Eddie Haskell]

43. That's right

Fewer everyday.

[BainsBane]

136. That's not what TOS says

It's quite clear on the matter.

Vote for Democrats.

[quinnox]

142. you do know you can vote for Dems without being one yourself, right?

This isn't rocket science.

[BainsBane]

172. What's the point of a pronouncement like the OP

If not to say he won't be voting for Democrats? Many states don't even have party registration. The OP is in MO, which does not have party registration.

I don't see why people can't discuss their outrage over the issue without engaging in hyperbole about impeaching Obama, Obama being Hitler or the same as Bush, etc. . . It doesn't further discussion of the issue or seek solutions. It's simply histrionics.

[SunSeeker]

221. +1

[canoeist52]

248. #2. Thou shalt not exaggerate a persons argument in order to make it easier to attack.

[LovingA2andMI]

179. Excuse me....

How is a website going to tell someone who to vote for at a voting booth! Are you serious here?

[BainsBane]

181. It doesn't tell you how to vote

It sets the terms for membership on the site, which is built around the Democratic Party. TOS describes who is eligible to post here.

[Plucketeer]

193. I think maybe I need someone

to define Democrat for me. I think I've maybe lost my way.

[LovingA2andMI]

198. Well at this point

A "Lets make excuses for B.O. on NSA Democrat" means that you agree full-heartily with being suspected as a terrorist, regardless of not engaging in any actions to be defined as a terrorist, because Barack Obama's NSA says its A-Okay.

For me, I'm not that type of blind sheep Democrat and have no problem questioning Republicans or Democrats when their actions are dead wrong!!

[RKP5637]

262. +1, n/t

[obama2terms]

312. You said it!

[cui bono]

348. And it was built around the Dem party BEFORE Obama took GWB's policies

and ran with them. So I choose to stand for the Democratic Party's purported principle's and not for a man who does not enact them. Unfortunately there are too many on here who stand for a man who is putting the Dem Party principles into a coffin.

So who are the real Dems? I know the answer and it's not a trick question.

[whopis01]

210. While that phrase is in the TOS, there is quite a bit more in the following paragraph

The TOS quite clearly States that during non election season times, such as now, "members are permitted to post strong criticism or disappointment with our Democratic elected officials, or to express ambivalence about voting for them"

That seems to be what the op is doing to me.

[BainsBane]

213. I have reservations

He has said he has left the party. Others have compared Obama to Hitler and George Bush, and we have threads calling for impeachment. It's histrionics.

[cui bono]

349. It's not at all histrionics. Obama doubled down on warrantless wiretapping and drones...

on prosecuting whistleblowers. So how is comparing him to Bush histrionics?

[Tarheel_Dem]

402. Has anyone told you yet what "warrantless" means? You keep saying that. I'll make it easier....

do you even know what a "warrant" is, and who issues them?

[cui bono]

417. I like how your only response is to ask me if I know what that means rather than address what is

actually being discussed. Answer my questions and then perhaps I'll think about answering yours.

[Tarheel_Dem]

428. Well, obviously we can't have a debate as long as you're ignorant of some very important definitions

I really don't think much can be gleaned from you, but I think the first step in any debate should be a basic understanding of the charges you're leveling, and clearly you don't posses that understanding.

[cui bono]

433. You don't know what a debate is as evidenced in the other back and forth we're having.

If I'm wrong about something then the next step is for you to correct that. All you do is make immature comments. You're not looking for a debate or a discussion, that is very clear.

[Tarheel_Dem]

436. No. "Immature" would be continuing to claim that "warrantless wiretapping" is alleged anywhere.

You've made that claim all over this board. You still haven't convinced me, or anyone else, that you actually know what you're talking about.

Let's make this easy. I won't ask you for facts, since you seem incapable of that, but let's opine for a moment. I think there's a serious debate to be had around the issue of metadata collection, but you do know that it's "legal", right? You do know that all three branches of our government participated, right? You do know that no future president is going to cut him/herself off at the knees by using any available powers to prevent an attack on his/her watch, right?

And while we're opining, one can admire what Snowden did, and still think he should spend a hefty amount of time in prison for it. And further, don't you think it a bit ironic that an American whistleblower who says that he can't live in a country where his activities might be monitored, would choose fuckin' China? Do you know what irony is, or should I explain it to you? He fled to a country where the state owns the media, and that state has been accused of hacking into American businesses, news agencies, and even our own Dept of Defense. Now, why would he do that unless he's of some value to the Chinese government? I think this is where the discussion will go once the initial fervor dies down, as it always does.

[YeahSureRight]

232. Vote for Democrats - Impossible to enforce and very silly rule

But it makes people feel good about themselves thinking that it actually is an enforceable rule.

I look at it this way if Bernie Sanders ran for POTUS against say against Hillary in 16, there would be very little support for Hillary here until her supporters were able to kick all the non Hillary supporters out of DU.

[Fumesucker]

236. DU advocated voting for Charlie Crist who has never been a Democrat

[SwampG8r]

425. and i screamed bloody murder while it went on

I screamed like I was stabbed in the scrotum about it
to all the admins
and was told that since meek (the winner of the florida DEMOCRATIC primary and legitimate DEMOCRATIC PARTY candidate) "was unlikely to win"
that 3rd party support for Crist was OK
and I was shouted down almost exclusively in posts and replies by many of these same people now demanding party loyalty
3rd party campaigns were defended by many of the same people now demanding DU ban members for any discussions about anything other than the Democratic Party
its disgusting

[DonCoquixote]

426. of course!

Of course no one would say it was because Charlie was the White guy. And of course, people are embracing him because the only other choice is Alex Sink, who folded to Rick Scott so well that the GOP could not have trained her better.

I can accept people who dislike Obama because he was not liberal enough, but I will be damned if I do not smell a lot of the same people that hated him for day one because he dared get in the way of St. Hillary Clinton. A lot of people who hate him now are the same people that will demand the head of any democrat to the left of Hillary!

[Ter]

318. What happens if you vote for one independent in the last 6 years?

All others are Democrats, but this one independent was a local race?

[BainsBane]

324. Look, I'm not in charge of anything

I'm just pointing out that Quinnox's point about there not being a requirement you be a Democrat to post here is inaccurate. I'm sure there is no problem with what you describe unless you advocate for that independent on DU during election season. But that's only my guess based on reading the TOS and watching what went on during the last election.

[idwiyo]

382. You are wrong. I am British, live in UK, can't vote in US, and yet I am allowed to post here.

I am definitely not the only foreigner on DU. Never mind there are a lot of DU members who are registered Independent, Green, etc. and they never tried to hide their Party membership.

[dlwickham]

170. unfortunately not

[usregimechange]

15. Well, I've been here for a decade, they can delete me if they wish

[demosincebirth]

49. +100

[still_one]

59. Actually I doubt very much most of us would have supported George Wallace when he was a democrat

Understand that does not mean I agree with the sentiments of the OP, however, for each of us we should do it person by person instead of grouping all into one.

For instance, if social security is privatized, why would I support any Democrat who voted for it?

I will go a step further, which may not be wise, however, it is a hypothetical

If a race was between moderate to progressive republican, verses a hard right tea party democrat, I would vote for the republican

That may be herasy, but it is my view that in the hypothetical the republican is more democratic than the democrat

Of course I cannot think of a situation where that would apply, since the repukes have effectively eliminated most moderates from their party

[secondwind]

113. I agree.. I will never not support Democrats or not donate to them.

[zeemike]

176. I think you miss the point of underground.

You go underground when you can't live above ground.

[Raine1967]

186. +1

I'm wondering where the OP was in 2006-07 during the Bush Administration under the Patriot Act.

[Cooley Hurd]

5. It's frustrating, but please remember we're the party of...

[usregimechange]

21. Do you realize that there is one current official on that list and half are no longer living?

[Cooley Hurd]

28. I do, but they are still important to the vision of the party.

We still revere them. The Repugs cannot say the same about Ike, TR or even Reagan or Goldwater!

[dflprincess]

131. For some of us they are

but when was the last time you heard a Democratic office holder say it was time to pass FDR's second bill of rights? Instead we have a president who plays games with Social Security.

When I joined DU I was still very active in the DFL but over the last 10 years or so I've gotten more and more disgusted with the party both at a state and national level. I still occassionly show up for a district meeting just to keep track of local politics.

I only donate to candidates I like and I won't give the party (national or state), the DSCC or DCCC a dime.

[awoke_in_2003]

188. Too bad 85% of our politicians...

do everything they can to distance themselves from those pictured.

[RKP5637]

260. It's IMO a constant morphing away from what the D party used to stand for ... now many

of the newbies IMO don't know the difference ... they never lived/experienced those times, so often the status quo seems just fine to them.

[cui bono]

352. Yep. And they are simply playing the team sport the corporate media tells them to play

rather than looking at what is actually happening.

Look at how many on Du that defend actions that are the exact opposite of the Dem Party principles? And then they tell those fighting for those principles they can leave if they don't like it, that the Dem party is just where they like it and they don't need progressives so we can just f-off. They literally say that on here.

[RKP5637]

356. Yep, led to the slaughter by whomever. Looking at some posts, some seem

to have not studied much history IMO.

[woo me with science]

374. +10000 Well, it's worked for them in the past,

and they don't have much else, short of jack-booted thugs, as an argument. They are, of course, working on that.

But I think they gravely underestimate the level of anger when people, like now, realize the extent of the assault and what they have been conned, over and over again, into supporting.

[LovingA2andMI]

194. And Al Gore Twitted today....

"In digital era, privacy must be a priority. Is it just me, or is secret blanket surveillance obscenely outrageous? — Al Gore (@algore)"

https://twitter.com/algore

So I guess Al Gore's not on board with B.O.'s Adminstration "data-mining" tactics either.....

[cui bono]

353. Can't wait to hear what a "crackpot" Al Gore is now.

Come on people, you know you're dying to say it, don't hold back now.

[Tx4obama]

7. In my opinion there is a big difference between 'spying' and 'storing meta-data'

The meta-data is not accessed unless a judge signs an order for each individual case.

I'll miss you

[Swede Atlanta]

32. Hmmm, even as an attorney that is a...

I did not have sex with that woman argument....

In order to use the data you must have the data. So stockpiling the data is the first step in committing an act of unconstitutional search and seizure.

It would be like telling a prosecutor he/she could not include evidence that the Boston marathon bombers had gone to XXX home supply store and purchased 2 pressure cookers and then gone to YYY explosives company and purchased fertilizer and then ordered detonation devices over the internet from company ZZZ.

Collectively they are all part of an unbroken chain of evidence of a planned, willful conspiracy to commit an unconstitutional act.

[Agnosticsherbet]

144. From what I understand, the data was gained using a court order form the FISA court.

Technically, it is not unconstitutional search and seizure. It is something I would like to see the Supreme Court rule on. It would have to be SCOTUS, since they alone determine what is and is not Constitutional.

[Sirveri]

223. Congress could also pass a law banning that process, or repealing part of FISA.

Congress could fix this... but instead they'll use it to bash Obama with. He deserves it for using it, but that specific set of detractors would do the same damned thing.

[Agnosticsherbet]

288. Yes, yes they could. But what was done would still be Constitutional.

And, really, most of these members Congress, including the Democrats, gave the executive branch the power to do this.

And I am sure that Congress will do something, as soon as they pass another 45 bills ending "Obamacare."Not.

[Abq_Sarah]

421. I would imagine or perhaps hope

In order to fulfill due process requirements that the names of every single person in this country would have to be listed on a warrant issued by a court. "All electronic communications" within the United States is so incredibly overbroad it couldn't possibly pass constitutional muster. Remember, just because the jackasses in Congress pass a "law" doesn't make that law legal.

[LovingA2andMI]

201. Thank you Attorney Swede Atlanta!

For defining what the meaning of "is, is".

It's amazing the excuses "I'm A-Okay That B.O,'s NSA Spying on My Stuff" type of Democrats are. It's down right sickening, really!!

[gcomeau]

310. What's really amazing...

...is that so many people are so fucking clueless about this that they think the statement that Obama is "spying on your stuff" is true.

[cui bono]

354. So you don't read the news?

[gcomeau]

367. Yes. Unlike you however...

...I then actually research how accurate it is. Would be nice if many other people gave enough of a shit to do so as well before ranting about it on the internet.

The program everyone is currently in the middle of their collective freakout over is an NSA initiative to archive high level communication traffic data. No individual person is being "spied on", nobody is having their telecommunications activity tracked and analyzed, nobody's texts are being poured through or transcripts of their phone conversations being dissected. Nobody is fucking SPYING ON YOU.

Any of that would require a FISA warrant. Unless you have had one issued against you, personally, specifically, you are not being "spied on" by the NSA or the Obama administration.

Now during the Bush term all the above actually happened WITHOUT warrants. As in illegally. Get pissed about THAT and the fact that those people are still free and clear of any criminal charges for all the crimes they committed... but that isn't happening these days under Obama. Understand?

[dreamnightwind]

384. That's not how I understand it

I'm sure I have some catching up to do, but I think you're misrepresenting what's going on.

From what I know, in regards to phone calls, they're admitting to metadata tracking only, not contents, so though I am skeptical they aren't also storing phone call contents, if they are doing so, they haven't admitted it yet. So on that point we aagree.

I do believe they have the content of internet communications, not just the metadata. So that would mean the content of your texts, emails, videos you upload, posts to DU, etc.

I also believe it's not an archival program, it's an active database that has full searching capabilities, with algorithmic analysis of all incoming data being combined with the "archived" (your word, actually I think it's just whatever's stored in the database) data to flag potential troublemakers.

No doubt such a program would have very sophisticated queries developed that would allow instant production of any and all of this content to be reported on for any individual or groups of people.

If you know anything that contradicts this, I'd read your links, need to get up on the details, but I think it's an active, fully indexed and queryable database containing much more than you have described and not some static archive that is never looked at.

[cui bono]

414. So you think they're storing all this info for no reason?

Sure, that's it. What's happening is unconstitutional. Whether or not they use it is really immaterial. However, you really believe that with all that info sitting there no one is ever going to access it?

You are relying on the term "spy on" as something that has to be active, but it doesn't. They fact that they have the material stored and can access it at any time means they are spying, the gathering of my private communications is spying in and of itself.

But even so, you're wrong:

It appears the National Security Agency’s sweeping surveillance is not something only Verizon customers should be concerned about. The agency has also reportedly obtained access to the central servers of major U.S. Internet companies as part of a secret program that involves the monitoring of emails, file transfers, photos, videos, chats, and even live surveillance of search terms.

The Washington Post disclosed Thursday that it had obtained classified PowerPoint slides detailing the program, code-named PRISM, from a career intelligence officer who felt “horror” over its privacy-invading capabilities. “They quite literally can watch your ideas form as you type,” the source told the newspaper.

Participating in the PRISM program, according to a selection of the leaked slides, are Internet titans including Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, AOL, Skype, YouTube, and Apple. It was established in 2007 and is used by NSA analysts to spy on Internet communications as part of the agency’s foreign intelligence-gathering work. The analysts use PRISM by keying in search terms supposedly designed to “produce at least 51 percent confidence in a target’s ‘foreignness.’ ” However, the Post notes, training materials for the program instruct new analysts to submit “accidentally collected” U.S. content for a quarterly report, “but it’s nothing to worry about.”

According to the Post, the system enables NSA spies to monitor Google’s Gmail, voice and video chat, Google Drive (formerly Google Docs), photo libraries, and live surveillance of searches. If agents believe a target is engaged in “terrorism, espionage or nuclear proliferation,” they can use the spy system to exploit Facebook’s “extensive search and surveillance capabilities." And PRISM can monitor Skype, the Post notes, “when one end of the call is a conventional telephone and for any combination of ‘audio, video, chat, and file transfers’ when Skype users connect by computer alone.” In order to receive immunity from lawsuits, the participating companies are obliged to accept a directive from the attorney general and the director of national intelligence to “open their servers to the FBI’s Data Intercept Technology Unit, which handles liaison to U.S. companies from the NSA.”
http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/06/06/nsa_prism_surveillance_private_data_from_google_microsoft_skype_apple_yahoo.html

And guess what? It's not constitutional. So if you are fine with throwing our constitution in the toilet just because it's Obama or some Democrat doing it then I wish you would change parties or go to another country that doesn't say it's for the people etc., etc., etc.

The people should know this is happening. If it's so innocuous why was it secret? What happened to having a transparent govt, the most transparent ever?

Sorry, you can twist it all up as much as you want, but it is unconstitutional spying on citizens, period. And it's as close to a police state as we've ever been. You really think that's okay?

[gcomeau]

427. Of course it's not for no reason.

1. Just the overall big picture pattern of communications is useful information to have.
2. They will have the data available IF THEY NEED TO GET A WARRANT AND LOOK AT IT.

And yeah, please tell me more about all the things the Washington Post, which has already deceived the public multiple times about the program and been caught doing it, has to say about it. Their claims about the program having access to things like Google's servers HAVE ALREADY BEEN DEBUNKED AND BACK-PEDALED ON.

http://www.businessinsider.com/washington-post-updates-spying-story-2013-6

You're being played for a sucker by the GOP on this. Pay Freaking Attention.

[Th1onein]

68. They ARE 'spying.' On all communications. STORING them is even worse. I'm no longer a Democrat,

either. I'm done. I will vote for Independents only.

[brooklynite]

125. THAT might be interpreted as violating Terms of Service...

[frylock]

150. go run tell mommy

[brooklynite]

243. Not my job....

Just a question -- if you're opposed to electing Democrats, why hang out at a pro-Democrat blog?

[bigtree]

268. that's a good question

. . . trolling on behalf of 'independents' comes to mind.

Of course, all of that just amounts to a pretty solid opposition to the Democratic party. That's not something that i think enhances or contributes productively to our little internet community. It's a stance which is disruptive, by its very nature.

. . . and the retort from fry is to 'tell mommy.' Inspiring.

[cui bono]

355. Well what contibutes productively to our real life society and civil rights

trumps the "little internet community", especially when that community is deteriorating the Dem Party while they profess to be supporting it. Anyone who supports warrantless wiretapping, cutting SS and countless other atrocities just because someone who is a member of the Dem party does it is selling out the Dem party. But hey, let's just worry about the rules of one internet site and what makes the little internet community feel good about themselves rather than what that site actually represents now due to so many members selling out the party principles in favor of idolizing one man.

It's clear who the real democrats are.

[Th1onein]

401. +1000

Thank you for saying it better than I ever could.

[brooklynite]

406. ...and if that's your feeling, there are plenty of progressive (rather than pro-Democratic)....

...sites where I'm sure you'd find a happy home.

[cui bono]

418. And if your feeling is that we shouldn't fight to uphold the constitution then there's plenty

of undemocratic countries where you can find a happy home.

See how dumb a response like that sounds?

Why should progressives leave when we're the ones standing up for the Democratic Party's supposed principles? When we're the ones standing up for the constitution?

If the Dem party becomes no different than the Republican party on constitutional issues are we still supposed to cheer it on and vote for those who would destroy the very foundation of this country? I think not.

Rather than wishing us away, you should be thanking us.

[brooklynite]

423. I actually do believe in fighting for progressive causes...

...and the way to do that is work within the Party to select candidates and advocate for policies you want. When you abandon the Democratic Party, you may "send them a message", but you've lost any further influence. Dream all you want, but our political structure is built around a center-left and a center-right Party; throwing your vote to the Greens, Socialists or the occasional Independent isn't going to make a difference.

[cui bono]

432. Unfortunately though, it's no longer center-left and center-right.

It's now center and extreme right. I honestly think the Dem Party is pushing people out and I hope that eventually there will be enough to form a left-center (more left than center) third party so we can get back to the people's business because I don't see the Dem Party doing that any time within the next several decades, not while they are beholden to corporations.

It may take people leaving for them to wake up. But they're not going to change unless they don't think they'll have careers any more. We can see they don't really care about standing up for what's right.

[Th1onein]

398. I disagree with you.

[Th1onein]

397. Because I am a left-wing liberal. And I've been here since 2004, when I voted straight ticket Dem.

In fact, for decades, I have voted straight ticket Democrat. I've been here a while, check out my profile. And, this is THE place for the exchange of liberal ideas, in my opinion. But you have to draw the line somewhere. I will NEVER vote for a Republican, OR a Libertarian. But I will search out Independent liberal candidates and campaign for them, and vote for them. From now on.

I am deeply disappointed in our President.

[brooklynite]

407. An admirable track record, but...

this is Skinner's Board, and Skinner makes the rules...

Vote for Democrats.

Winning elections is important — therefore, advocating in favor of Republican nominees or in favor of third-party spoiler candidates that could split the vote and throw an election to our conservative opponents is never permitted on Democratic Underground. But that does not mean that DU members are required to always be completely supportive of Democrats. During the ups-and-downs of politics and policy-making, it is perfectly normal to have mixed feelings about the Democratic officials we worked hard to help elect. When we are not in the heat of election season, members are permitted to post strong criticism or disappointment with our Democratic elected officials, or to express ambivalence about voting for them. In Democratic primaries, members may support whomever they choose. But when general election season begins, DU members must support Democratic nominees

You certainly have a right to vote as you see fit, but campaigning for "Independent liberal candidates" sounds to me like campaigning against Democrats.

[Th1onein]

412. You need to read the rules. You are INCORRECT in your assumptions.

[Th1onein]

396. I see you're adding some real meat to this thread. nt

[Th1onein]

395. THAT is incorrect.

Try again.

[LovingA2andMI]

205. Well, I'm Independent Left.....

It says it on my tag line (look below) and at our website "I.U. provides the BEST NEWS & TALK covering Politics & Breaking News from a"SANITY" BASED INDEPENDENT LEFT PERSPECTIVE. Leaving "battles of extremes" of the politically insane FAR Right & Left, elsewhere!". Wonder what that means for me because I support PEOPLE (policies that support Americans Middle and Lower Economic Classes) over party?

[woo me with science]

393. "STORING THEM is even worse." THANK YOU.

The storing is the most egregiously fascistic aspect of this. They are creating a database on every single citizen's movements and activities. Those who don't see the danger in that are either apologists, or they have not thought through the possibilities.

Citizen 1,675,402 begins to look a little too angry or activist, and it will be no trouble at all to search through the data and find some reason, somewhere, to call the local officers to check out some violation from 2013. To arrest, or have someone disappear.

It offers pre-emptive silencing of opposition to the government, even before it has a chance to materialize. And for those who are implementing an agenda of corporate, profit-centered and human-exploiting policies that will cause widespread impoverishment and rage, this is exactly the sort of system that will offer tremendous temptations for abuse to prevent the inevitable pushback.

It is creepy as hell, and ALL Americans should be standing together now to stop it.

"The Mass Surveillance program is to protect the government FROM the people."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2962737

[Th1onein]

400. YES, ABSOLUTELY. Every single one of us are now potential targets of the government.

God help us.

[woo me with science]

409. We have already observed the government's proactive targeting of Occupy.

This is nothing short of chilling and, really, should have Americans in the streets saying ENOUGH.

[rhett o rick]

215. Dont try to fool us. You would be ok with whatever Pres Obama wanted to do.

Rationalization is your key to happiness.

[bigtree]

270. by that line of thinking

. . . constant and reflexive opposition to this presidency would be your handle here.

. . . and you're right, no one is fooled by all of that opposition (ODS) on this board from rhett o rick.

[rhett o rick]

329. Wrong. I believe in the Democratic principles. When leaders support those

principles, I will support them. I strongly supported candidate Barack Obama in 2007 when he indicated that he supported Democratic values and principles. I am disappointed that he didnt follow thru and end or at least severely restrict the Patriot Act and domestic spying. Explain to me why I shouldnt be disappointed?

[cui bono]

357. You are so wrong about Rhett.

Don't forget to look at substance. Just compare the reflexive support of Obama to the detailed and substantiated crriticisms.

[rhett o rick]

328. I support the DEmocratic Party. I believe that Democratic principles

do not include embracing the Patriot Act and domestic spying.

I opposed those issues when Bush was president and I still oppose those issues.

[Sheepshank]

330. That's perfectly fine to have you own principals and to state them

but that's not what you did, regardless of your attempt to sound all noble and wonderful...now.

[rhett o rick]

332. I stated that the poster would support anything the President does. Is that so horrible?

Is that as bad as calling someone a troll?

[Sheepshank]

334. your intent to insult anyone certainly is insulting...

insult and belittle anyones support of a Dem on a Dem site is absolutely telling IMHO...and makes no sense unless your intent is to diminish that support. Isn't that what trolls do? Infiltrate and demoralize?

[rhett o rick]

336. I try hard not to insult anyone here. If you have an example I will gladly

rectify it. And I wasnt insulted by your calling me a troll, if that was your intention.

[Egalitarian Thug]

231. Then you don't understand databases. We don't need a Tx4obama label to find you

should we ever want to, and from surprising little data we can learn more about you than you probably know yourself. It's also not just you, but everybody you communicate with. Are you familiar with the principle of six degrees of separation? We don't need half that. Even if you are as perfectly innocent as you undoubtedly believe yourself to be, how sure are you about everybody else?

Add to this extremely abbreviated scenario the fact that this is inconceivably more than a little data limited to U.S. communications, and this is far better than trying to listen to every conversation and read every email.

[radhika]

297. Metadata tells us a lot.....it is spying

Just knowing who knows who, who patronizes a service business and what linkages exist among seeming strangers is plenty. Not necessarily accurate, below legal standards. But definitely suggestive. I'll bet some of those signature drone strikes Schahill writes of started with less.

Why do jealous partners spy on their partners phone logs? Doesn't reveal the conversation...but it's enough to escalate things.

[harun]

311. Wrong, read the last paragraph in particular

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/06/nsa-spying-verizon-analysis/65963/

[tavalon]

337. Well, that depends on what the definition of "is" is

Don't tie yourself in a pretzel. Data mining was wrong under the Shrub and it remains wrong now.

[Warren DeMontague]

9. How're they supposed to keep tabs on granny and make sure she's not smoking pot for her chemo nausea

if they can't spy on everyone?

4th Amendment? What's that?

[quinnox]

10. I can't blame you

I know you have been here a long time too. I recognize your handle. It is becoming harder to remain a Democrat with all this bullshit taking place recently. Maybe the Obama White House will get the message and start curtailing some of this spying nonsense (among other things). One can hope.

[sulphurdunn]

177. I don't thing so.

The Obama curve is arching farther and farther right. I thought it was decided years ago that there were was to be no purity test for posting on DU, no requirement to only preach to the choir. I like to argue. That's how things get sifted out. What kind of discussion can you have without true believers, apostates, middle of the roaders and even trolls having at it sometimes? That's how democracy is designed to work.

[cui bono]

358. But that doesn't work on a site that has an "ignore" feature.

I don't understand how a site that is supposed to have debate and discussion from differing points of view has that. So stupid.

[sulphurdunn]

376. That's just an option

for the choir preachers. I suppose. Bless their hearts.

[RKP5637]

266. It makes one wonder just what revelation tomorrow will bring ... n/t

[Cleita]

11. I'm displeased with the direction this party has taken of late, like being Republican Lite,

but leaving it is not the answer. Instead you need to work at taking it back from the corporate DLCers and back to it's core principles. I'm with you in not giving money directly to the DNC or other organizations that give money to candidates you may not like or supports policies you don't want like destroying the fourth amendment. Instead send money directly to candidates you do like and work for them individually.

[Swede Atlanta]

13. Agree.......

My contributions and open support for Democratic candidates, including Obama, were significantly lower in 2012 than they were in 2008 or 2010.

As I see the Democratic party move further and further away from my core beliefs in so many areas it is hard to energetically support them. I do endorse the open support they have for women's and LGBT rights and their tacit support for the right to organize.

But, other than some mealy mouthed words from President Obama, Geithner and company perpetrated a fraud on the American people when it came to Wall Street. Despite Dodd-Frank, the big banks and Wall Street continued to suck the lifeblood out of the average American with BO and company laughing all the way to their bank accounts.

The most concerning, however, is not only the continued, but indeed expanded war on the American people and on the rule of law by BO and his administration. They have wiped their collective asses with what little was left of the Constitution with the spying and deployment of drones over American cities. They continue to believe their use of drones and other instruments of war in an undeclared war abroad even when they don't know the identities of those targeted is justified.

They are plain and simple drunk on power and bordering very close to a dictatorship. I would rather have a Democrat as dictator but I don't want any dictator at all. When we consider that Congress, Democrat and Republic alike, are owned by the 1%, do we realize that we the people are totally screwed.

[markiv]

14. the most shocking thing about this story for me, is

that there's a phone company that sucks more than Sprint

didnt think it was possible

[dionysus]

16. .

[zappaman]

27. dammit!

I just posted the video of this down thread!
I knew I should have read thru this thread!

Great minds...

[Egalitarian Thug]

17. I've quite enjoyed replying to the 4 - 5 emails I get from them every day begging for my $ and

my contacts. As far as I'm concerned Bernie Sanders, Alan Grayson, and Elizabeth Warren are the only politicians left on earth (and Bernie is adamant about pointing out that he's no Democrat).

[markiv]

62. Bernie is great

he tells it like it is, and acts lke he tells it

[Egalitarian Thug]

133. Just so. If only we could clone him 535 times... n/t

[RKP5637]

269. +++ 1,000 +++ n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

94. Learn about Jeff Merkley, Senator from Oregon who is topping that list

He's a Democrat, a Senator and never was a Republican ever. He supports actual equality.

[Egalitarian Thug]

123. Merkley and DeFazio are both certainly better than the worst, but don't count on anything like

unflinching commitment to egalitarian principles from either of them. They are career politicians and whenever it comes down to you or them, neither is prepared to go to the mat for you. The guy that Merkley shamelessly smeared to get into the club, Steve Novick, was a far stronger choice and that's why he was taken out.

If not for the DNC...

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Wellcome to the land of the independent voter

[cherokeeprogressive]

24. Um, wut?

[otohara]

45. Unaffiliated - You Can't Be Independent

and let the rest of us choose who the candidate will be.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Funny, since my status says Independent

but what do I know? Just been one since 2009... something about Single Payor.

[otohara]

152. The American Independent Party or

the Independent Party of America?


http://www.aipca.org/

http://www.independentamericanparty.org/

Both look a bit too religious for my taste.

[nadinbrzezinski]

155. Yeah, but in California (where it gets confusing)

the Registrar considers me an INDEPENDENT VOTER, with no affiliation.

They warn you NOT to cross the INDEPENDENT party.

Again, what would I know. Been one for a while now, proudly so. And it has an added benefit, I get crap from literally EVERYBODY.

[ctsnowman]

304. In CT

you can register as an independent and not join a party. I should know... 12 years now.

Have a great day.

[otohara]

315. How Many GOP'ers

have you voted for?
Or do you just vote for "I" candidates?

Since you post here I figure you're not clueless like the many so-called "independents" I have spoken to
on the phone over the years of volunteering for the Dem candidate. I watch the poll numbers for "I's" and
they swing back and forth. Vote Dem one year, GOP the next --- or ... there's the "I" person who just votes Democratic
all the time.

[ctsnowman]

375. In CT

I've been here for 12 years and have voted for 1 Republican (Jodi Rell Gov.) and 0 independents. Last time I voted straight D ticket because the Cons are to strong in many places in our country and I'd be damned if we were going to send one from CT. Last I heard there isn't one R in the house from ALL of New England certainly none from CT . The Rs up here tend to be more like southern Dems. I quit the D party when most went for the Iraq war but still send the party money. If they ever put someone like Grayson on the Democratic ticket for president I'd dip into savings and do anything I could to help him. I may vote Green if they ever get a viable candidate. The short of it is that I am too liberal (free trade and support for massive military spending are my biggest problems with the DLC) for the Democrats.

Peace and I hope you have a great day.

[hamster]

20. PRESIDENT

Obama is my president and i've got his back. Best. President. Ever.

[hrmjustin]

25. Welcome to DU my friend!

[okaawhatever]

30. Amen. They're only storing data and getting warrants to accesss it. I'm 100% pro Obama. nt

[bluestate10]

90. The Left won't mention that a court order must be obtained just to access one

number in the database. I hope those people don't wear the same color of foil caps because they can be confused with teabaggers. BTW, Rachel is fucking intolerable so far.

[JoeyT]

124. "the left"

tells us absolutely everything we need to know.

[sabrina 1]

226. 'The left'?? Aren't you Democrat, the 'left' side of the aisle? Who is the 'left' to you?

And you are incorrect. You have clearly either forgotten or were never aware of the vile piece of legislation called the FISA Bill passed by Congress to save the telecoms from prosecution and law suits when a whistle blower revealed that Bush had been using them back then to spy on the American People which at that time, was against the law.

The 'right' (Republicans) defended that crime and the FISA Bill. The 'left' (Democrats) were outraged at the revelations and the attempt to protect the criminals, which succeeded.

[cui bono]

364. Why do you seemingly hate "the Left"? The Dem Party IS (supposedly) the left.

Of course people like you, who hate the left, the people who actually stand up for democratic principles and people's rights, are making the party "the right".

You are the ones being confused with teabaggers. You are the one who seems to dislike criticism of right wing policies even though PBO is enacting them.

Please explain though, how defending civil rights is teabaggerish.

[SunSeeker]

216. +1

[cui bono]

361. Just what we need. A blind follower.

[okaawhatever]

369. Not blind, but I am a follower. I'm quite familiar with the intelligence community and how they

operate. I'll take the safety being provided right now to giving up this intelligence info. I don't expect privacy when I make an international call. Never have. I'm not threatened and I wonder why so many of you are.

[cui bono]

416. Then you deserve neither.

Sorry, but that's a lazy excuse for not standing up for our constitutional rights. What's happening is unconstitutional, and it's not only having privacy on international calls that is at issue. And btw... why would you not expect privacy for international calls? Because the other side would monitor it? Or because you're okay with it being monitored in the U.S.

And what safety is being provided by spying on any citizen at all, by gathering all records of all citizens???

I'm not threatened personally, but the constitution is threatened. I care about that and I wonder why so many of you don't.

[Abq_Sarah]

422. Hey, feel free to hand over your 4th amendment rights

Just don't hand over mine as well.

[okaawhatever]

430. That's the giant myth. The government needs a warrant to listen to my phone calls. That hasn't

changed. Take the hysteria away from this and not much has changed regarding American citizens. I have always known I don't have an expectation of privacy with international communications.

[Abq_Sarah]

435. The only myth being forwarded

Is the "myth" that only international calls are being collected.

The mere fact that the government is warehousing our communications, not limited strictly to telephone calls, without a warrant, without probable cause needs to be addressed. What you and others are suggesting is akin to saying it's okay to rob a bank as long as you don't spend the money.

[ZombieHorde]

70. Welcome to DU! nt

[Daniel537]

276. I'm sure you are.

You drones are just as pathetic as the wingnuts on the right.

[zappaman]

22. well...

[Tx4obama]

91. Who is that? n/t

[zappaman]

96. Powers Boothe

from the movie TOMBSTONE.

[Tx4obama]

99. Thanks :) n/t

[markiv]

23. i knew all I needed to know, in 2007

Until we have achieved that, I will support a temporary increase in the H-1B visa program as a stopgap measure

from:

http://pradeepc.net/blog/2007/11/26/barack-obama-on-h1b-and-immigration/

i knew he didnt give a ---- about the middle class

[The Link]

26. Hold on...this is Bush's fault.

And the FISA judge's.

And Verizon's.

And your smartphone's.

And its only meta data.

And 9/11 and terror.

And if you didn't do anything wrong, why worry?

[madamesilverspurs]

31. I just left a meeting

where we were working on candidate development and building the campaigns for some local races coming up in November.

During a break one of the guys checked his email, wherein he'd received a link to the breaking story that our county commissioners, all Republicans, voted to propose joining some other counties in breaking away to form a new state. Seriously, they feel themselves abused by background checks and anti-frackers and wimmen who refuse to be barefoot and pregnant. Our mayor and city council are rightwing enough to endorse the idea. So I'm thinking that this would NOT be the time for me and my co-workers to leave the Democratic Party. It may not be perfect, but the alternative is unthinkable.

[markiv]

40. 'It may not be perfect, but the alternative is unthinkable'

reminds me of a passage from Orwell's 'Animal Farm'

(Jones is the farmer the animals ran off in their revolution)

The mystery of where the milk went to was soon cleared up. It was mixed every day into the pigs' mash. The early apples were now ripening, and the grass of the orchard was littered with windfalls. The animals had assumed as a matter of course that these would be shared out equally; one day, however, the order went forth that all the windfalls were to be collected and brought to the harness?room for the use of the pigs. At this some of the other animals murmured, but it was no use. All the pigs were in full agreement on this point, even Snowball and Napoleon. Squealer was sent to make the necessary explanations to the others.

"Comrades!" he cried. "You do not imagine, I hope, that we pigs are doing this in a spirit of selfishness and privilege? Many of us actually dislike milk and apples. I dislike them myself. Our sole object in taking these things is to preserve our health. Milk and apples (this has been proved by Science, comrades) contain substances absolutely necessary to the well?being of a pig. We pigs are brainworkers. The wholemanagement and organisation of this farm depend on us. Day and night we are watching over your welfare. It is for your sake that we drink that milk and eat those apples. Do you know what would happen if we pigs failed in our duty? Jones would come back! Yes, Jones would come back! Surely, comrades," cried Squealer almost pleadingly, skipping from side to side and whisking his tail, "surely there is no one among you who wants to see Jones come back?"
Now if there was one thing that the animals were completely certain of, it was that they did not want Jones back. When it was put to them in this light, they had no more to say. The importance of keeping the pigs in good health was all too obvious. So it was agreed without further argument that the milk and the windfall apples (and also the main crop of apples when they ripened) should be reserved for the pigs alone

[pscot]

220. Pigs is pigs.

[markiv]

244. yup

(spoiler alert, for anyone who intends to read Orwell's 'Animal Farm')

the ending

He had only one criticism, he said, to make of Mr. Pilkington's excellent and neighbourly speech. Mr.Pilkington had referred throughout to "Animal Farm." He could not of course know?for he, Napoleon, was only now for the first time announcing it?that the name "Animal Farm" had been abolished. Henceforward the farm was to be known as "The Manor Farm"?which, he believed, was its correct and original name. "Gentlemen," concluded Napoleon, "I will give you the same toast as before, but in a different form. Fill your
glasses to the brim. Gentlemen, here is my toast: To the prosperity of The Manor Farm! "
There was the same hearty cheering as before, and the mugs were emptied to the dregs. But as the animals outside gazed at the scene, it seemed to them that some strange thing was happening. What was it that had altered in the faces of the pigs? Clover's old dim eyes flitted from one face to another. Some of them had five chins, some had four, some had three. But what was it that seemed to be melting and changing? Then, the applause having come to an end, the company took up their cards and continued the game that had been
interrupted, and the animals crept silently away.

But they had not gone twenty yards when they stopped short. An uproar of voices was coming from the farmhouse. They rushed back and looked through the window again. Yes, a violent quarrel was in progress.There were shoutings, bangings on the table, sharp suspicious glances, furious denials. The source of the trouble appeared to be that Napoleon and Mr. Pilkington had each played an ace of spades simultaneously. Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man
again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

[ucrdem]

35. I know somebody who needs a friend. . .

Don't spread it around but I think Stand with Rand stood her up.

[alcibiades_mystery]

85. Gahahaha

Perfect.

[ucrdem]

92. Party of three so far

counting the dog.

[alcibiades_mystery]

109. Had a few run-ins with Ms. Benjamin when I was an activist in SF and she was running Global Exchange

She's a nightmare, a horrible person. And for those about to yell "What did you think during Bush!," I'm talking about the late 1990's. Her ego knows no bounds. A disaster.

(And, by the way, we did actually protest Clinton's Iraq policies (the sanctions regime), which killed at least as many Iraqis as the war, or so we used to claim at the time. Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure she was even there when we protested Clinton's visit to SF on Nob Hill, musta been Spring 1998 or thereabouts. Oof, she's awful.)

[ucrdem]

118. The pink thing was alright in Bushtime

not too threatening and kind of cheesy, just right for FOX, but to keep the same act for the next four years was kind of strange and insulting. And heckling last month was seriously out of touch.

[bluestate10]

95. Or a smaller sense of self-importance. nt

[ucrdem]

121. Or a good psychiatrist. n/t

[jeff47]

148. DUZY

And that's the first time I've actually said that.

[dlwickham]

171. poor thing

[SunSeeker]

217. LOL

All Valentined up and no place to go...

[Tarheel_Dem]

403. +1

[Fantastic Anarchist]

36. Welcome!

Welcome to sanity.

[Itchinjim]

37. Histrionics.

Bye!

[pinboy3niner]

38. Boneheaded move, dude

Pretty much leaves you either voting for a teabagger or refraining from voting (something the GOP loves to see).

Yay, progessives!

[Union Scribe]

195. The OP didn't say anything about voting. nt

[Smarmie Doofus]

39. I kind of jumped ship mid first- term ... mostly over $$$$$school "reform".

Meaning I donated selectively. The recipients were probably exclusively DEMs ( since Obama style school "reform" is a conservative Republican idea ... to the BONE) but I supported them as individuals. Money soliciting from the state and nat'l party ( I love it when they *call* esp. , cause then I can VENT) goes unrewarded.

I feel vindicated ( in a sad way; would have been happier if I had been proven wrong... or even premature) by subsequent developments. Including the spying. Progressives need to take the party back.

However.... I still consider myself a DEM and hope you will think of yourself that way also.

[railsback]

41. Man, if I had only voted Green

Mitt Romney could be president, with Dick Cheney advising. That would be tits!

[freshwest]

80. Yes, that would have nice! Don't worry, the 'I won't vote' gang didn't vote before, either.

Last edited Thu Jun 6, 2013, 10:59 PM - Edit history (1)

This is the Left version of the homey style of Rush, Beck and O'Reilly. They are our 'friends' who will teach us the path of righteousness.

[bluestate10]

100. Yea, the world would be perfect. The Left would be laying in streets and chaining themselves

to granny's picket fence, and meeting hot lefties for romance, and accomplishing absolutely nothing but getting laid occasionally. I'll pass.

[sabrina 1]

227. 'The Left' = Democrats. 'The Right' = Republicans.

Your attacks on Democrats are so similar to those we see from Rush.

Why do you attack Democrats on this forum? Are YOU a Democrat? This is a Democratic/Left forum.

'Hot lefties' who do 'nothing but get laid'. Wow! Why are you here if you despise Democrats so much?

And what is wrong with getting laid btw?

Democrats don't generally have problems with sex or with other people having sex.

Republican talking points aimed at democrats right here on DU.

[graham4anything]

44. What was it John Kerry said???

[ucrdem]

53. Something like this?

[graham4anything]

56. If one goes to wiki and looks up democratic underground this is the first paragraph

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Underground

Democratic Underground, also known as DU, is an online community for U.S. Democrats. Its membership is restricted by policy to those who are supportive of the Democratic Party and Democratic candidates for political office.[2] DU was established on January 20, 2001, the day Republican George W. Bush was inaugurated president

[Dragonfli]

72. So a Canadian conservative can't post here then?

"an online community for U.S. Democrats"

I will miss sid,

[quinnox]

77. lol

[Number23]

120. As much as you talk and obsess about him, I believe you're right

[Fumesucker]

241. I was fine with Sid

Until he started mocking those who wanted single payer, the type of health coverage Sid personally enjoys as a Canadian where he doesn't have to worry about going bankrupt due to medical bills.

It became clear then that Sid is empathically challenged and I've seen nothing out of him since then to change my opinion.

Going on a board and discussing their internal politics with the inhabitants of another country is fine, what I have trouble understanding is why anyone in their right mind would choose to be as nasty about it as Sid often is.

I don't get Sid's motivation, this stuff for the great part does not have an effect on him and yet he's playing to injure.

[dflprincess]

140. Snap!

[dflprincess]

137. Wiki is not always known for its accuracy.

During the Bush administration DU itself said it was an online community for Democratics and other progressives.

[sheshe2]

190. +1! nt

[Lil Missy]

47. K. Bye.

[DCBob]

48. alert the media!

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Actually in places like California

anybody joining either party would be worthy of media attention. Indies out number partisans... by quite a bit now.

[zappaman]

61. Fact check.

Wrong.


The percentage of California voters registered as independents, also known as "decline to state” or "no party preference” voters, reached a record high of 21.3% in the June 2012 primary election. This marks an 11-point increase since the 1992 presidential election (10.3%). Over the same period, the percentage of registered voters in each of the major parties has fallen: Republicans from 37% to 30.2% and Democrats from 49.1% to 43.4%. Also, the actual number of independent voters has increased from 3.44 million before the 2008 presidential election to 3.65 million today, while the total number of registered voters has declined somewhat (from 17.3 million in 2009 to 17.15 million today).


http://www.ppic.org/main/publication_show.asp?i=784

[Brother Buzz]

65. Careful there, you'll be accused of being a bully by throwing pesky facts at her

[demosincebirth]

71. You are right, but some throw shit out there hoping some of it'll stick. That's a RW tactic.

[alcibiades_mystery]

88. Welcome to the IGGIE LIST, Baby Doll

[FSogol]

112. Stay hydrated!

[MineralMan]

263. No. They. Don't.

Your information is incorrect.

[demosincebirth]

50. See you later.

[BlueToTheBone]

52. Buh bye n/t

[Initech]

54. We need a third party desperately in this country.

And I'm not talking about *THAT* third party - we need one that isn't full of incompetent, mindless dumbasses whose only job is to bend over backwards to serve the needs of the uber rich - while convincing their members that the other side doesn't have the founding fathers' best intentions, despite the fact that they themselves have no fucking clue what they actually stood for.

[RKP5637]

277. +1 Change it to what it used to stand for! n/t

[newmember]

57. I support your decision

[WillyT]

58. K & R !!!

[MjolnirTime]

60. thank you. the weight already feels lighter.

[MADem]

63. Well, the GOP has been doing it too.

And I doubt if a third party got in there, that they'd throw away this swell new tool at their disposal.

Who really thought that all that shit could be out there without someone trying to aggregate it? Those turds at Facebook do it, constantly bugging people for personal details and tailoring ads to suit....

This generation is growing up without a sense of privacy.

Want privacy? Get off the grid. It sounds harsh, but it's the truth. Your phone spies on you, your car does (unless it is an old shitbox), your credit/debit cards....you can't go two miles without your "devices" telling on you.

[markiv]

64. Is there a Nobel Prize in surveillance?

if there is, I think they're late in awarding it

[mwrguy]

66. Support Obama and the party or GTFO

Simple choice.

[Lizzie Poppet]

69. No.

Shove your "choice" where the sun don't shine, Sparky. If the president and the party support this kind of fascist horseshit, they can fuck most thoroughly off. Simply being slightly less fucked up than the Republicans isn't remotely good enough.

[Mnemosyne]

78. [phone] nt

[woo me with science]

105. Hear, hear!

[Phlem]

117. Your officially sexy!

the " That's just wrong to look so effortlessly relaxed, happy & handsome " crowd is just anymore. When the superficial rules, there's really some thing wrong.

Thank you so much for saying it.



-p

[LuvNewcastle]

141. Hell yeah!

[TDale313]

162. Abso-fuckin-lutely!!! n/t

[Poll_Blind]

182. WORD! But, hey, also remember people like Ron Wyden (D-OR) are fighting the good fight and...

...that's important to remember, too. Not saying you're not aware of it, I'm just bringing it up.

PB

[Lizzie Poppet]

372. Quite so. Very proud of both our Senators on this one (nm)

[Spitfire of ATJ]

183. Makes ya wonder what's the point?

[WillyT]

196. + 1,000,000,000... What You Said !!! - K & R !!!

[RKP5637]

275. K&R! n/t

[Skip Intro]

289. +100

[Apophis]

325. + infinity.

[piedmont]

360. "Simply being slightly less fucked up than the Republicans isn't remotely good enough." Amen! nt

[quinnox]

81. sez the guy who has been here since 2010, to a Duer who has been here for ten years

[Bobbie Jo]

209. ....sez the

Sock.

Who thinks he has a sense of humor.

[Agschmid]

237. Damn.

[Puglover]

365. Sez the poster who has been here since 2006 to

the poster who has been here since 2002. So whose sock are you Bobbie Jo? More over who cares? <shrug>

What a lame post.

His humor aside who gives a shit?

[Bobbie Jo]

366. WTF

Are you going on about?

I wasn't referring to Q.

[Puglover]

371. Oh well whoops then Bobbie.

Never mind.

[Mojorabbit]

158. Oh please. Rolling my eyes. nt

[burnodo]

185. The tent has collapsed

at least, the left side of it

[Union Scribe]

197. GTFO out of what? nt

[quinnox]

202. apparently, "mwrguy", thinks they are the new boss of DU, and gets to decide who leaves and

who stays. They are the decider-in-chief!

[Agschmid]

238. Agree...

That the poster is most certainly not the decider.

Disagree that tenure should be a sole decision making point on who is worthy of contributing to DU community.

[Le Taz Hot]

233. 'Scuze me there, Sport.

Who the fuck died and made you DU Sheriff? If the admins want the poster gone the ADMINS will make that decision. You know, most of us are smart enough to lurk for awhile before posting just so we don't get caught posting stupid shit like the one you just did.

[RKP5637]

284. Well said!!!

[Daniel537]

283. A Stalinist couldn't have said it any better.

Which is exactly what the Obama Fan Club has become. Fuck you and your shitrag party. You can keep it.

[rhett o rick]

335. That type of thinking is contrary to democratic principles. That sounds a lot like

the way conservatives talk/think.

[cui bono]

344. Stupid choice. WTF has happened to this site.

Have you lost your mind? So when the Dem party decides to outlaw abortion and mandate vaginal probes we should also support it and Obama? At what point do you stop giving up your principles? What is your "price point"? Because you've sold out if you still support the Dem party and Obama when they don't stand by the principles the party is supposed to be about.

[woo me with science]

67. Noam Chomsky

"In the US, there is basically one party - the business party. It has two factions, called Democrats and Republicans, which are somewhat different but carry out variations on the same policies. By and large, I am opposed to those policies. As is most of the population."

Noam Chomsky

[ucrdem]

79. Noam needs to get his vacuum tubes serviced.

I think his last one burnt out in 1954.

[woo me with science]

157. Oh my.

That was sort of like watching Kim Kardashian critique Richard Dawkins.

[Fuddnik]

257. +5000

[bread_and_roses]

265. And at least 5000 more! (n/t)

[cui bono]

346. LMAO!!!

[Enrique]

271. just about a month ago

i watched a Chomsky interview and it was the most relevant commentary I had seen from anyone in a long time. He didn't say anything particularly strong or controversial, it was just very insightful.

[jtuck004]

102. +1 - and a whole bunch more. It's been that way since the mid-1920's.

It's just that after exploiting all the natural resources we can, we are left with exploiting each other, and people seem to think that is somehow different.

[L0oniX]

73. I am surprised stupid ass jury clowns have not attacked you yet.

[quinnox]

76. lol

I hear ya.

[ZombieHorde]

75. I have always been registered as an Independent,

but I usually vote Democrat. I have never once voted Republican.

[bluestate10]

82. Good bye and good luck. nt

[lfieldon0729]

84. Glad to see you go

If you left the Democratic Party over something that was started in the previous administration and signed by nearly every member of Congress (both parties) without reading it, then I am glad you are gone because you are too stupid to be in MY party. Good riddance.

[NYC_SKP]

93. Your reply is a violation and you ought to edit the post.

It was alerted upon, you really should not call other members stupid if you want to be a good community member.

Sound good?

[Bluenorthwest]

98. Your first post is 'glad to see you go' to a long term community member?

That takes some gall.

[bluestate10]

106. Welcome to DU, with a factual, kick ass post none the less. nt

[quinnox]

116. your post doesn't reflect so well on your own intelligence

just saying -->

[Union Scribe]

199. I smell a dirty sock.

Anyone missing one?

[Agschmid]

239. Well there is the cute blue on with the red anchors...

Those anchors were really weighing me down...

[rhett o rick]

333. Now there is some kinda audacity on your first post. Or have you been here before? nm

[Tien1985]

86. I understand why

You feel you can't be part of the party anymore.

I'm going to continue to vote my conscience on every individual race, but that almost always ends up being the dem cand. I don't think I'll ever not vote from disliking the choices.

[Vinnie From Indy]

87. Rather than be a snarky asshole like some on this thread,

I will ask that you try and change the party rather than abandon it. Work to get progressive candidates elected and refuse to work for or donate to those candidates that endorse this surveillance horseshit. Tell other Democrats why you are concerned and why it is important to press every candidate for a position on this issue. Leaving is just one of your options.

Cheers!

[Phlem]

122. Well said my friend.

and spot on.



Some times we get to impatient for change but yes support the candidates that move us back left again and give the finger to corporate Dems.

I can't stand them, and the ignorance they have inflicted the party with has got to be cured.

-p

[RKP5637]

279. K&R! n/t

[abelenkpe]

97. It is frustrating

personally much more likely to leave over democrats supporting the dismantling of our public school system but keep hoping the party can be changed from within.

Please consider trying to enact change before abandoning the party. Doesn't seem like this is supported by many posters here anyway. Hopefully democrats will use this story to get rid of the patriot act and return our nation to pre 911 sanity....

[navarth]

101. You seem a person of conscience. I hope you don't leave DU at least.

Good luck to you either way. I think it's wrong to be throwing rocks at you for what you said.

[erpowers]

103. And Then What

Leaving the Democratic Party because President Obama has decided to demand that Verizon and other companies give up the personal information of the American people is not, in my opinion, the best course of action. It would be far better for you to gather a group of people together and write letters to the President or start a petition. Why not try to run for office? You should fight for change instead of leaving the party.

[ScreamingMeemie]

104. Do what I do. I haven't donated on a national level since the '04 elections. I work locally.

Donate funds locally. I support those who deserve the support--not those who merely sport a D next to their name.

It is time to take the party back to what it used to be. And that ain't those (for the most part) who are sitting on Capitol Hill or Pennsylvania Ave. There is only so much Obama can do...but I believe it could still be more. Those who don't like it can sue me. It's not personal against the President. He was a better option, but he's not the Democrat I thought he was.

I voted D in the presidential election, but it didn't really mean anything at the time. It's become a football game for me, with D being just a little bit less of crazy, jingoistic, fake stuff.

It's going to take awhile, but as long as I'm living, I'll quietly donate and knock on doors for the truly deserving.

[1StrongBlackMan]

107. I'm pretty sure ...

the gop is very pleased with your decision.

GOTV 2014!

[bluestate10]

114. Some people can't see around their over-sized self importance to get a view of a

larger, more important picture. If people like the OP had not sat on their asses during the 2010 midterms, we wouldn't have the republican hell that we have now in too many states. I say good riddance to the OP and any one that thinks like that person. When I am in a knife fight, I want some one that I can fucking count on covering my back.

[1StrongBlackMan]

128. Maybe ...

It's because I was fighting the (racial) Civil Rights fight before some here were born ... Maybe my education and professional has pretty much beat the "knee-jerk out of me ... Maybe it's because my basic nature prevents me from making promises I know I will not keep; or if I did, I know I would be in a hell of a worst spot.

But for whatever reason, I don't do stupid.

[ileus]

111. It's for the greater good...you love America don't you?

[dkf]

115. You might as well leave American politics. There is no haven.

[one_voice]

119. To each his own. n/t

[oldandhappy]

126. patriot act has been around for awhile.

[jazzimov]

127. Why do I suspect that you never were a Democrat?

Could it be your username?

You can do as you wish, but I will wait until I have more information. From what I understand, they were only looking for destinations, not content. I personally don't have a problem with this.

[quinnox]

132. you don''t get the reference?

He is a long term member and has been here for a long time, ever since the Bush years. "Usregimechange" think about it, its not exactly rocket science.

[ScreamingMeemie]

149. +1

[Puzzledtraveller]

291. hard to believe isn't it?

That the posters name would sail right over so many heads. I suppose it makes them feel better to think this person could in no way have been a real democrat. I mean how can anyone exercise free will?

[ScreamingMeemie]

135. Ummm...back that truck up, buddy. usregimechange has been here since

Bush was in office (hence the name--checking on profiles helps keep one from placing an Oxford or 5 in one's mouth).


There is nothing worse than these kinds of accusations when one isn't willing to blindly lockstep anymore. It's what we laughed at the Bush sheeple for, and it makes me want to vomit when I see it here.

That said, before you ask for my "Dem" creds:

Dean supporter (I have pictures if you wish to see them)

Unwilling (But I DID it) Kerry door knocker.

and then?

I gave up on the national party and took it back home. I support local politicians only...until they too, become this new breed of American Politician who doesn't really stand for anything anymore.

[quinnox]

139. exactly, I love how all these newbies (this one joined just this year!) are telling off

a long time and well respected duer like usregimechange. They have no class to speak of, apparently.

[ScreamingMeemie]

146. It's irritating as all get out.

We're suspected of "not being 'real' Democrats" because we question our representation?
That smacks of the 'pubs telling us we weren't real Americans back in the day.

I'm tired of it.

[RKP5637]

258. Yep, they naively believe my democrats right or wrong ... and that is a fool's walk right

off the cliff.

[QC]

264. Many of our recent arrivals believe that politics began

the day they tuned in to Oprah and saw the most dreeeeeeeeamy senator sitting on her couch.

[chervilant]

245. Oh, they stand for something;

they stand for more money in their personal coffers, that's what they stand for.

[mwooldri]

129. With this issue both Ds and Rs are in it.

This $hit was approved with the USA PATRIOT Act. Congress also voted to extend said bill. I have joked when speaking with my parents that "this call is monitored by the CIA for quality purposes". I have known for a long time ... way before GW Bush... that these capabilities exist and that they are being used. The law authorized it, and it's now apparently a common procedure at the NSA.

I am surprised that this isn't common knowledge. The most secure computer network I know of riitht now is the sneaker-net. As for phone calls... I don't expect privacy there either.

Leaving a political party because of this one issue that both parties supported is a decision you made. My point is that this problem happened a long time ago, and codified into law by Congress around 2001/2. That was the time to get mad about it but everything was terra! terra! Emergency! The Muslims! Bin Laden! Also time to get mad when it was renewed. Now the full extent of this NSA "snooping" has been revealed, people get mad. Congress authorized this $hit. Congress can fix it if they can get their collective heads from outside their arse and actually do something.

I edited this because the subject line was not in line with the rest of this post, and to fix some grammar.

[JoeyT]

130. No way, you have to work to elect Democrats.

Otherwise we'll end up with a president that nominates a bunch of Republicans to...wait...shit.

[MsPithy]

134. Just yesterday, I was wondering if it would have been better if

McCain had won. Wait, before you flame me, if McCain had tried to collect all American's phone calls, or used the NSA to gather all our online information, does anyone doubt democrats would have fought tooth and nail?

Because the president is a democrat, they just roll over.

With a few exceptions.

[jeff47]

166. Uh....you seem to be forgetting one tiny little detail.

The law that made this legal passed when a Republican was in office. And Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it.

So no, having McCain in office wouldn't have caused Democrats to line up against it. They had their chance long before the 2008 election and rolled over.

On the plus side, with McCain in office we would have invaded Syria already, and we'd still have a massive presence in Iraq.

[Zen Democrat]

174. It's a military-industrial operation that you, me, John McCain and Barack Obama can't stop.

I was irate about this when Sen. Rockefeller sort of spilled the beans during the Bush Administration. Remember Iran-Contra's own Admiral Poindexter was implementing the Total Information Awareness data-mining program at the NSA until Congress shut it down in 2003. But then there were Patriot Act reauthorizations and expansions and this stuff is now legal. Anyone who really believes that Barack Obama or John McCain or Bill Clinton or any elected official could control the security untouchables is simply naive.

[AlbertCat]

143. Quelle dramatique!

One issue politics are so non-democratic anyway.

[OnyxCollie]

320. One issue politics?

The Fourth Amendment has now reached pony status.

[Dustlawyer]

145. Both sides are bought off, for the most part. Throw your support behind

COMPLETE CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM (CCFR)! That's the only hope, when something finally sets people off (if it happens), they need to focus on only CCFR and reset the whole damn thing!

[TDale313]

164. ^^^ this ^^^

[liberal_at_heart]

168. +1000000

[jeff47]

156. Yeah, remember how there wasn't a dime's bit of difference between Bush and Gore?

Boy, voting independent in 2000 was such a great idea.

We're in the process of taking the party back from the DLCers. It's not gonna happen overnight, but it is happening. To keep it going, we have to keep fighting the DLCers within the party. Abandoning it just results in more Republicans, and more DLCers.

It took about 20 years for the DLCers to take over the party. It's gonna take a while to take it back from them.

[Savannahmann]

159. There be the rub

The rank and file generally speaking don't support it. The empowered appointed and elected do. After all, they have so much to protect us from, like hidden shadowy forces committed to the destruction of something or another.

George Orwell warned us, and we created a system right out of science fiction nightmares to make sure it came true. All in the name of national security.

[SunSeeker]

160. Wish I got a nickel everytime someone on this board said they were leaving the Democratic Party.

[rtracey]

161. Seeya

Don't come back.....

[liberal_at_heart]

163. I don't blame you. If a liberal does not win the primary in the next election I will not vote.

[CakeGrrl]

173. If people leave the party, how do you expect a liberal to win?

[liberal_at_heart]

178. I meant the next primary. If a liberal wins the next primary I'd be willing to vote for them.

If not, then I will be exploring other options. I'm tired of giving my vote to people who give away our precious resources to the rich. The bankers were never punished, and they still gamble with our money. The education system is completely broken, and the only answer the democrats can come up with is privatization. The insurance companies got to write Obamacare when we should be implementing single payer. We are eroding our reputation around the world by using drones. We are spying on our own people. I'm sick of it. It's disgusting. It makes me sick to my stomach. Democrats are throwing my children's future away. Our kids are the proverbial frog in the boiling water. We're suppose to make the world a better place for our children. We are destroying it.

[burnodo]

187. staying in the party makes what difference?

[Sheepshank]

298. How does a group affect political change for something important...by leaving it?

No, or course not. The group sticks together and uses their vote...that's how!

True Socialists understand that isn't not about the individual. I am amazed at those that tout the solicalist line, then leave over individual poutage. Clearly that have not unsterstood the concept of unions, group strength, solcialism.

[panader0]

165. I'm pretty sure that spying by the government has been going on forever.

It ain't right, but it's always been there to some degree. Police have been listening to cell phones calls since there were cell phones.

[RKP5637]

285. And land lines since they happened. ... and through walls with glasses held to the

walls ... etc., and it will probably never stop.

[davidsonl]

167. Good Luck .......

.... finding a president who meets your standards for perfection. I have a lot invested in the Democratic Party and President Obama. I am certainly willing to ride this out and get all of the information. Do check back with those of us that stay in this forum and let us know who you are going to be politically supporting. Should be interesting. Have a nice weekend.

[dlwickham]

169. don't let the door hit you

[DaDeacon]

175. I guess one thing to say...

[pasto76]

184. have fun voting by inaction for the other guys

which is in fact what you will be doing. course most of you on DU think all of us soldiers are mindless robots, but speaking as someone who has put my life on the line for our ideals...gotta say there are a hundred other problems out there that are bigger than this one.

[liberal_at_heart]

189. That bullying tactic isn't good enough anymore. I don't give a flying fart if you think my vote puts

the other guy in office.

[Bluenorthwest]

211. Presuming that your 'ideals' are those of other people is rude.

Speaking for others without offering any support for your allegations is not an honorable action.

[SunSeeker]

219. Exactly.

And thank you for your service.

[Zoeisright]

191. Don't let the door hit ya......

[midnight]

192. K&R

[Union Scribe]

200. Focus locally.

It's clear that the national leaders don't give two shits and consider themselves above answering to their party or to its historical values. Our best bets are local/state races.

[SoapBox]

204. ...whatever. nt

[arely staircase]

206. Did you do it by phone

or email?

[Arctic Dave]

207. I don't blame you, the Obama adminstration has turned out to be a huge pile of dogshit.

See you on the flip side.

[quinnox]

208. whoa, now tell us what you really think

[Zorra]

212. Positively Wall St. nt

[Fire Walk With Me]

218. I encourage you to check out your local NGOs.

Non-Governmental Organizations, such as Occupy, Move to Amend, 350.org, and the anti-KeystoneXL and tar sands actions.

Until the government can be brought back to sanity. Or, if it cannot.

[mick063]

224. I'm with you

Unless the candidate for any given office openly aligns with dismantling the infrastructure of unwarranted surveillance, that by the US Government or private enterprise, I will simply abstain from political activism.

Lose the Patriot act, lose the Dept. of Homeland Security, lose the federalization of our local police, and put the Justice Department on investigating white collar criminals on Wall Street instead of petty pressure cooker buyers.

Unless the candidate comes out openly with an agenda to dismantle the economic disparity caused by ALEC and our financial institutions, I will abstain.

Quit spending time "busting" marijuana dispensers and start getting after the billionaire tax cheats.



No more money, no more debating, no more effort. I'm done. Bring on Rand Paul for some real culture shock. I'm ready.


Let the corporate owned, national media following lemmings get what they "deserve". I'll hide out as an old man and watch the nation burn as an "I told ya so" spectator.

It will indeed burn. Just like Berlin eventually burned. It is inevitable.

[sabrina 1]

228. While I understand completely your decision, I don't think any of those who, like you, respect the

rights we are guaranteed as citizens of this country and the egregious violations that have been taking place ever since this phony war on terror was used to strike so much fear into the people they would willingly go along with giving up their rights, should leave the party. I think we should not only stay but with the knowledge we now have that we did not have in previous years, begin the process of forcing OUR party to start standing up against these Bush policies.

Eg, we need to join the ACLU and other Civil liberties organizations in pressuring Democrats to stop supporting these Bush policies and begin the process of restoring the rights taken away by Bush, as they promised to do.

They could start by acting as quickly as they did when they passed the FISA Bill, designed to protect Bush and his puppets in the Telecom industry from prosecution by legalizing what was ILLEGAL when Bush was caught doing it, and introduce a Bill just as quickly to restore the old Bill which made this kind of spying illegal.

They need to hear from the people every day until they get the message that unless they start acting on our behalf, they will be primaried with people who will. But it IS our party and we should not be driven out of it leaving it to the Corps to control. It WILL be a fight, but we are far better prepared now than we ever were before.

[Deep13]

229. Yup.

For me it was renewing the Bush tax cuts.

[denny1952]

230. Don't let the door kick you in the ---

[LittleBlue]

234. The Democratic Governors Association called me today asking for money

They had been calling for several days and I've been avoiding it, until this morning when I picked up just to tell them why I won't donate. I told them no more money until NSA spying ends.

I won't donate and volunteer to finish what Bush started.

[tridim]

259. It's very convenient that they called right as this week's DU poutrage session kicked off!

Otherwise you would have had to lie about your withholding of money to Democrats. You're so lucky!!!!!11

[LittleBlue]

305. You're calling me a liar? I've got the phone records right here

4 days in a row from 6/3 to 6/6 @ 9:40, 11:48, 9:28 and 3:47, each time showing up as Unknown Name, and they never leave a message if you send them to voicemail. Knew it was them since they did it to me within the last year. I got a woman in a call center.

Pathetic from you that you aren't aware of a massive fundraising effort from the DGA, and yet have the nerve to call me a liar.

[tridim]

308. No I said you were lucky they called right as this poutrage was developing.

I hope I get that lucky some day! :wave:

[Le Taz Hot]

235. Sorry the Cheer Squad

is giving you a tough time, usregimechange. I get the same shit every time I mention I'm not a Democrat anymore either.

[RandiFan1290]

240. I left after the Obama, Pelosi, Reid tax cuts for the rich

[tridim]

261. LOL

@ you.

[michigandem58]

242. Fickle defined

Looking forward to your return next week. The extinguisher is right over there >>>>

[faithnomore]

247. You know, George Carlin was right, voting IS meaningless..................

It's simply a choice between one lying asshole or another lying asshole...........

[Puzzledtraveller]

250. Just in time, the wagons have completed their circle here at DU

They even have their own talking points, and a long fresh line of newly dug ostritch hole in which we can place our heads in.

[kentuck]

251. Why would they "store" information?

if it was useless to them? Why would they waste their time?

[cprise]

317. Translation:

'Government spies and militarists are completely rational and would never succumb to a pathological world view that would lead to ruinous consequences.'

[WovenGems]

252. Really????

Why didn't you leave the party in 1949 when the NSA was founded or twenty years ago when they began recording communications? Avoid hype and seek facts.

[rbixby]

253. AKA "I'm going to take my toys and go home!" NT

[Coyotl]

254. With a username like usregimechange, how did you claim to be in the Democratic Party?

and if you did not like NSA spying, why were you still in the Party anyway?

[Aerows]

267. It was wrong under Bush

and it's wrong now.

Anyone that wants to be an apologist for this is welcome to their opinion, but don't waste your breath on me because clearly they don't give a shit.

[dembotoz]

274. i feel your pain

but sadly I live in Wisconsin which is undergoing an extreme veer to the right
and as much as dems annoy me--yes they threw me out of my local party.......

I hate yes hate the republicans more

so participate where you want
when you want
there are greater evils out there than Obama
although sometimes you do wonder....

[Daniel537]

278. Good. The Democratic Party has always been a fucking joke on the big issues.

The PATRIOT Act, FISA, Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel etc.... This is why i never vote straight D on anything. I vote for candidates depending on their substance, not on some fucking letter after their name.

[0nirevets]

280. You must be one of those famous "swing" voters we hear so much about, blowing with the latest wind

Dems don't do everything right, Obama certainly doesn't, but no one gets everything they want all the time. Are you really jumping ship to join the party that created the Patriot Act? Excuse me but that makes no sense at all.

[grahamhgreen]

282. There has been a long series of betrayals. I'm afraid

the the neocon philosophy has penetrated deep into the party.

[judesedit]

286. But as soon as there's an attack of any kind, you'll be the first to say it should've been prevented

And how do you prevent an attack in this day and age? You have to stay on top of all electronic correspondence. How else? Wake up. If you're not a terrorist, a money launderer or a child porn freak, then what are you so worried about?

[RufusTFirefly]

300. I gather you're not being sarcastic...

... which is both very sad and very scary.

"If a person is innocent of a crime, then he is not a suspect." -- Edwin Meese

[OnyxCollie]

322. How effective was domestic spying in the Boston bombing?

The government is spying on millions of people, but they can't stop two guys that they had been warned about?

[gulliver]

287. How many times is this?

I'll actually take the trade. People who don't stick are not worth keeping anyway.

[MynameisBlarney]

292. I won't be leaving the party.

However, I will only vote for real progressives.

[Whisp]

293. If you want to believe Drudge and Huffington, sure, go ahead/away. n/t

[struggle4progress]

295. Why not tell us all about your prior support for Dems, so we can properly mourn

your future non-involvement?

[RufusTFirefly]

296. Yes indeed. Please sign this simple loyalty oath. It will only take a second

[cartach]

299. GOOD!

[stopbush]

303. Have fun as a Republican, or as a don't-blame-me Independent.

Hell, you may even want to join the Libertarians so you can just throw away your vote.

[DCBob]

309. It will be interesting to see how your attitude changes when the hard right takes over this country.

Many of you are completely clueless to what the RW plans to do to this country if they ever get back in complete control. It wont be pretty.

[fjlovato]

313. Faithless and hurried

Oh you of little faith. Why jump off the ship when you don't know what is the damage? How was this harming anyone? Does it harm anyone to have the government know to whom and when a call was placed? Wait until you know somethings before you set your hair on fire but if you insist, don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. LOL (I think)

[Phillyindy]

314. Pretty dumb response...

This isn't party, its well beyond that. This is the nation protecting itself, right or wrong, and no party will stop it, ever. To give up on the good fight on all the issues where democrats are our last best hope is reactionary nonsense. No offense of course, I understand your frustration and passion.

[grantcart]

319. Why in the world would you join a party whose President issued executive order 9066?

[DallasNE]

323. That Is So Republican Of You

They like to pack up their toys and leave rather than stick around and try to work things out and that is exactly what you are doing here. Nobody likes the Patriot Act and that law was recently extended with little fanfare so why didn't speak out/resign then. As it is you are proving Jim DeMint right that Congress should not legislate because that exposes divisions and instead focus exclusively on scandals. Well, welcome to Jim DeMint's world. I hope it makes you happy.

[SHRED]

327. LOL

You're online, have a cell phone, use a bank card, and you worry about privacy? LMAO

[Capn Sunshine]

351. I know, right?

I'm not sure what privacy means any more in this electronic age. I do know that posts like the OP are just the epitome of why DU is not taken seriously by anyone. There's like 2 or 3 thousand people posting here who think out of 62 million voters they are a significant number.

[randome]

383. You got that right! What a drama queen!

Thanks for cutting and running, 'hero'!

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[rhett o rick]

389. You are calling a DU poster a "drama queen"?

Why? Do you think that insult will make her stop posting things you dont like?

If you dont like what she posts, by all means attack the post. Attacking the poster is rude and should be hidden.

[rhett o rick]

390. I am disappointed that you find it appropriate to ridicule the poster

for worrying about privacy. Go ahead and LYAO, but I will fight for every bit of privacy I can get.

[DrewFlorida]

341. Because income inequality and the lack of jobs is not an important enough issue to stay focussed on.

[Maat]

345. Welcome to the club!

Left it in January of 2009, after Obama assumed office and defended "indefinite detention." So, it's been 4-1/2 years now, and it continues to feel good.

[Ganja Ninja]

347. The NSA has been collecting every phone call made on planet Earth for the last 30 years or longer.

I forget what the name of the project is but it started way back before the Patriot Act. I think it goes all the way back to Carter or Reagen. They only need phone company records so they can prove it in court and not have to reveal their spying capabilities. And yes every phone call on planet Earth.

[Rex]

350. Well good luck with the alternative!

Which is NOTHING!

[SleeplessinSoCal]

359. How soon we forget . . .

There are think tanks that have burned themselves out because of the hard right moves of the past 10-30 years. It's going to take a long slow turn back, but it will be because there is a big engine doing it. Fragment, and we're a drift.

[Chakaconcarne]

363. OKay...so you're leaving..

where the hell are you going to go?

This is a snowball... no party affiliation needed. It's here to stay. Sucks, but it's true. Unless someone has a bright idea as to how to solve the problem and get it implemented.......I, personally have little hope.

[Puglover]

368. And it took you 12 years to arrive at this decision and

drama laced post? Wow!

[el scorcho]

373. I'm right there with ya.

[Hippo_Tron]

378. Since when did the Democratic Party start supporting what you're claiming it does?

Yes, the President of the United States is the leader of the Democratic Party but that doesn't mean that the Democratic Party is following his lead. There are numerous Democrats who are critical of the President because his actions have been contradictory to our party's values.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

385. I have news for you

that spying is VERY old news go back a long time. From Russia with love.

[Pisces]

386. Bye

[rhett o rick]

387. Stay and fight for our party back. The conservatives have invaded

sponsored by the Ruling Elite. We must run them out. Back to their own party.

[Mkap]

388. The entire democratic party

from the congressmen to your local dog catcher...hmm seems kind of harsh. The president serves the interest of the nation both conservative and democrat, not the interest of the left wing. Obama has always been a moderate democratic president as our most presidents cause a right wing / left wing extremist doesn't get re elected unless they cheat like George "lets close the polls early in democratic Cleveland" Bush

[WillyT]

391. The Camel's Back... Can Only Take So Many Straws...

And every camel's back... is unique...

[DFW]

392. "Listen in on phone calls that your neighbor made"

I wrote and performed this for a bunch of "promis" with Bill Clinton in the front row about 3 feet in front of me---SEVEN YEARS AGO:

(Sung to the tune of "Listen to the Rhythm of The Falling Rain:&quot

Listen in on phone calls that your neighbor made
I know he doesn't look the part,
And though I cannot prove he's as Al Qaeda aide
His name is Al and that's a start

I tail him in his car, he thinks that I'm a fool
But let me tell you where he ran
He ate lunch in a restaurant called "Old Kabul"
And that is in Afghanistan

You call me paranoid, and that's O K
But watch your step 'cause I work for the NSA
I haven't put a camera in your bathroom yet, but I may

So, listen in on phone calls that your neighbor makes
It's not allowed, but don't tell me
We need to know the aspirin dosage that he takes
For national security
-------------------------------------

For what it's worth, Clinton laughed his head off.

On another note, the old East German regime over here collected data on all their citizens to the extent that they could. They had so much information, they drowned in it, never had enough people to process and act upon everything they knew.

[matt819]

394. Really?

What are you going to do? Vote for Ralph Nader? Vote R?

No question, this sucks. Obama had a chance to turn around the egregious power grab legislation enacted under Bush, and he failed. Miserably. And, sure, I hope that the next Democratic president undoes the damage. But running away and sulking? Give it a rest.

[4bucksagallon]

399. I'm not enrolled in either party however I will not vote for a Republican............

and I don't understand what the big deal is. If you think this is a "new" thing this NSA spying, what bridge have you been living under for the past 50 or 60 years. It is only because we have a "black man" in the White House that the extent of this is coming to light and you know it and I know it. I guess as an independent I should enroll as a "D" cause I am more in line with them then what I see on "Democratic Underground" unbelievably. Shit I remember NSA spying on us in Vietnam, where I served as an infantry soldier. Where was all the faux outrage then, I am sure you had it you just forgot to bring it. Many "black" Marines that I served with were tried and discharged after serving time in Portsmouth for marijuana, OMG pot. But hey they were black and they smoked pot, of course us "crackers" did too. This was at the height of the Black Panther, Black Power movement. Don't get me wrong I am not in favor of giving up all my rights to privacy but if I am on an electronic device, cell phone, PC, whatever and expect to be able to talk about building bombs, assassinations, oh I don't know but if I utter the key words I expect to be monitored. Obviously many of you have never lived in a "real" big brother world our military. I don't know what else to say except I am speechless that as an independent am more of a "D" then many that see posting here, this to me is the outrage.

[Amonester]

419. Yep. This whole Plutocracy's age-old massive paranoid program has been in place for decades.

And it surely involves an unknown number of International treaties and bilateral accords by now.

As in 'global satellite-driven watching': http://www.democraticunderground.com/101665742

Anyone wanting to effectively shut THAT down better have some magic powers or they will fail 100%.

But, hey, where will the next age-old scandal emerge from since the President is half black?

Good catch.

[Tarheel_Dem]

404. It's the internet dude! For all we know you might be typing from a Heritage Foundation call center.

Americans for Prosperity, or the Tea Party Express. Nice try though! You take 'em easy now, ya hear?

[duffyduff]

408. Something is wrong with this picture

People post thread after thread after thread about this as if it were the most important thing in the world, but nobody gives a shit about the destruction of public education by this so-called Democrat or his and Congress's refusal to do anything about the economy, which is still in the shitter.

I just can't get over people's priorities sometimes.

[Maat]

411. Thanks for helping me understand that leaving this board, and the Party, was the right thing for me.

Abuse of our rights and privacy is so important to me; I'm glad I now am a member of another board. The members agree with MY priorities. Frankly, I was surprised my old ID and password still worked. It's been years.

[brooklynite]

413. ...and yet, here you are.

[Township75]

434. There is nothing wrong with your decision.

I think the people that are pissed are the ones that are more Democrat than liberal. They have a sports team (Dems) and support them and want them to win over the opposing team (Repubs), and what they are doing or winning isn't so important.

Obama is doing the same stuff Bush did as far as infringing rights and privacy, drilling everywhere, etc. Why is it so important to be part of that team???

[tarheelsunc]

437. If that's how you feel...

just don't complain when, due to loss of support for the Democratic party, the Republicans start getting into office in droves and completely ban abortion, completely ban homosexuality, install "fair tax" codes that destroy the middle class and the poor, turn the USA into a theocracy where anyone who denies Christ becomes a mental patient, revert equal pay laws, openly discriminate against non-whites, and close the borders to all countries outside of Western Europe.