If I may make my second OP - and its about climate change.

[xenoturkey]

At this point, how on earth do we fix it?

I can see 30 years ago yeah maybe (probably then it wasn't early enough)...it seems we have gone beyond whatever threshold there was.

So we are beyond the cusp. I think we all realize that. What do we do?

I'm actually interested in real responses from every spectrum (nuclear, solar, wind, nothing, we all die).

With an expanding population and we can't regulate that. People will reproduce. How do you fix this???

[Gravitycollapse]

1. There's a good amount of evidence demonstrating that we have passed the point of no return.

That we are now only able to mitigate the damage.

[xenoturkey]

2. Oh I couldn't agree more

Now what do we do? Thats what I was kind of postulating in the OP.

[Gravitycollapse]

3. We have to essentially stop using fossil fuel entirely. Being that's not going to happen...

I prefer to consider myself lucky I'll be dead before it get's "really" bad.

[xenoturkey]

5. You and me both will probably be in the ground before this problem deals with itself.

And nobody is quitting fossil fuels anytime soon. So what do we do?

Its just an honest question. What do we do, right now.

[RobertEarl]

4. Adapt

Build seawalls. Stay inside on really bad air days. Duct tape and plastic. Buy oxygen bottles. Pray. Let's see, what else? IDK.

[xenoturkey]

6. I love it though I think you were being facetious

Adapt and survive.

But thats my answer. Thats not THE answer. And theres plenty of smart people that might have a good one than both of us.

[xenoturkey]

7. Oh I just got it.

Saw the oxygen bottles part. I assume you are being facetious or taking the piss out of me. Its not easy being new on this board.

[RobertEarl]

12. Facetious?

No, not really. Maybe.

But my best advice is: move above an elevation of 350' above sea level.

[xenoturkey]

14. You already know English is not my first language

But thanks for taking the piss out of me.

I don't see it as well as you do. But thanks for taking a new member and putting them for the ringer. I've been browsing since 2003 and my worst fear is my bad english wouldn't warrant me to comment or make an OP.

[RobertEarl]

15. Hey, you're cool, right?

I get that you are scared. There is a lot to be scared about. Only people who don't care are not scared. You care. I care. Most of DU cares. But we didn't start the fire. The fire's been burning since the world's been turning.

We are here for each other. It is good and proper for you to sound off that you care. Just don't take anything from DU too personally.

Besides, I just about failed English.

[xenoturkey]

17. Believe me...

We are cool brother. Shit happens. Life moves on.

[napoleon_in_rags]

8. Groove with it.

I made some really depressing comments to some denier jokers, shutting them up. Later some one said to me that joking is a way to deal with the weight of the whole thing, and that they see all the extreme weather and such and know its happening too, inside. The lesson learned was that this is a massively emotionally overwhelming, huge thing that pretty much any one feels powerless in the face of...We deal with that as we can.

So the way forward is to groove, to have fun with what we're doing. We know the things that can make a difference: more fruits and veggies in the diet, more biking less driving, more local production less imports. The other increasingly important thing is damage mitigation strategies - having things in place to survive the tornadoes, hurricanes in places they've never been before, endless fires, droughts, monsoon like rains and flooding, etc.

I think its well advised to forget about a meaningful response from DC at this point. If you're reading this, you are the resistance, you are the community leader on mitigation, you the one to turn people on to local production, healthy eating, cycling and all the rest, through making it where the fun is at. One thing on our side is that this moral lifestyle just feels better for some reason, its more beautiful. Aesthetics is super-cognition, it tells us when things are good when the actual reasons are too complex or distant for the day-to-day rational mind to grasp. Beauty is on our side, fun is, so is that good feeling that comes from doing things right.

But the key is, forget about fear. Forget about scaring people. We're all scared enough. Make it about fun. Make it about enjoying life.

PEace

[xenoturkey]

10. I don't think its funny

Nor worth joking about. Climate change is gonna kill million of people. Think of Bangladesh already and the flood they have that are basically tearing the country.

So I asked the question. I know its the point of no return. What do we do about it? And I think its a valid question.

[napoleon_in_rags]

18. And my answer is a valid one.

The question is, what gives us the power to act in the face of such massive issues? Is it fear? Or is it the hopeful feeling that we can make a difference, by playful enjoyment of life in the face of such huge issues?

The people WILL lead, and the leaders WILL follow.

[xenoturkey]

21. Oh I didn't mean it in that respect

I think my point got lost. (It happens)

Im just wondering, now we know are far beyond the edge. What happens?

[napoleon_in_rags]

22. Oh I see, I thought you didn't take my words seriously.

Im just wondering, now we know are far beyond the edge. What happens?

That's a big question, isn't it? It really comes down to whether or not humans have the goods in their current form to get it together, and do the right thing. I think we do.

[xenoturkey]

23. Oh quite seriously

Wish more would get the painting we are talking about.

[freshwest]

19. It won't kill millions of people if we give them the power to move, as peoples did in the past.

Last edited Mon Jun 3, 2013, 02:37 AM - Edit history (1)

The main danger to those in need are those who will kill to keep up what they consider their right. Most of humanity is adjusting to less space, less everything.

There are those who would rather see other humans die as a part of a natural cycle, but don't see themselves as part of the problem. People are going to kill each other over land, they always have. In each of the areas affected most, people are migrating. Many end up on the bottom rung wherever they move to survive - this is not new.

There is no turning back the clock, but fear, bigotry and clinging to the past won't work. A number of things considered essential to a standard of living in some places will likely go away, such as meat eating. We are not yet capable as a species, to control the weather and the human race has moved for centuries to escape starvation or death, and in many countries people live in such crowded conditions most Americans may abhor but they live, have children, have their own style of happiness.

Some popular scientists who focus on the future we can have through technological change, like Michio Kaku, claim we may or may not survive in the way we consider it today. He says our chance is as a planetary civilization, not as nation-states, all working for a common goal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michio_Kaku

Many will refuse, considering what they may lose in that process too precious. He calls such people terrorists because they are fighting against what he sees as inevitable in the future to survive.

If we do continue as a species, undoubtedly it will be under the control of the educated, who are building a technocracy.

That future will NOT be in the hands of the Doomsday prophets on the side of the road preaching the end of the world. And their followers will be ruled by their fears and become slave labor for many generations. This is anathema to those who want enlightened societies, but they seem to embrace their fate as God's Plan. They are signing up for misery, IMO.

Engineering on a scale that we have not seen before may allow us to create the kind of climate or conditions to adapt that we need to continue happily.

Kaku to some, may be insane. He presents a possibility for mankind that many feel great hatred toward. But he appears firm in his view, and we see young minds working in fields of science that mankind never imagined it would exist.

Like it or not, what he is predicting may be exactly what will happen. Those who are aware of the trends, need to figure out how they fit in.

[xenoturkey]

20. I agree with some of it.

Engineering is exactly what I fear. When it comes to humans.

Humans will still exist. I believe. In what fashion is the less comforting question.

I do enjoy your input. I think, maybe, if we can move everything, we might have some dice in this game.

[napoleon_in_rags]

24. This is a good provocative post.

But Kaku's way isn't the only way.

Some popular scientists who focus on the future we can have through technological change, like Michio Kaku, claim we may or may not survive in the way we consider it today. He says our chance is as a planetary civilization, not as nation-states, all working for a common goal.

Its what the scientific community has been pushing toward, and failing miserably, because all they do is run around seeking to build consensus in this direction. But building consensus is useless. Those who excel at it use their power almost exclusively to build their wealth and power more, and such altruistic endeavours as Kaku proposes are simply too expensive to any of them in such a competitive game.

A post that replies to this, I read as warning against human genetic engineering as a response. That's new territory for humans and the warning is wise, but nature has long been in the business of engineering life forms through evolution. In fact the lens of evolution - survival of that which works - can be used to view technologies, religions, social movements and the rest. The question is, what is the advantage of it for the unit of evolution: How does a technology, ideology, movement or anything else HELP those who embrace it.

This is what matters now IMHO. This country is dying with diabetes and obesity, and the solution, way more fruits and veggies, bike rides etc. Is the cure. It leads to a fit and joyful life. The economy is suffering, and the solution is connected communities with local production of goods and services. In addition to helping with those issues, these things help with climate change. Furthermore, those of us who know it's real are positioned to know some of the disasters coming. How do we help ourselves and others who know, and through empowering our own, give a way of being that other people will want to embrace, because it works, because it keeps you alive, and its joyful, and good.

That's the challenge now. Part of it is for the scientific community to accept that Star Trek world unity isn't here yet, and won't be. The world won't unify behind them but this small army will. We're still in nature's game, which is freedom: Every species, every ideology, gets some cards and lays them down. Some make it some don't. The focus of the community needs to be on playing their cards - and those who are with them - as well as possible. Find something that works, and the whole world will follow freely, no global government needed.

PEace!

[freshwest]

16. Good advice, action is all we can do. Fear is paralyzing and divisive.

We have to look at each other as part of a whole. Be ready to help. Be as independent as possible. Don't burden others, because it's going to get harder and we need to work together.

[JaneyVee]

9. We're already f*ked, just enjoy every moment of it.

No but seriously, at this point the most we can do is slow it, it's already happening: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/09/solomon-islands-climate-change

[xenoturkey]

11. I have my doubts...

We can slow it enough...

[xenoturkey]

13. Just again

Sorry for my english (Doing my best!)

[Edim]

25. Climate change is ok

and should/can not be fixed. Do you want to fix seasons too? We all die, by the way.
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut4gl

[Gravitycollapse]

26. Climate change is not "okay' by any stretch of the imagination.

[Edim]

29. it's the reality of nature

and therefore okay. But maybe you mean anthropogenic global climate change or warming? Then, there's nothing to fix.

[Gravitycollapse]

31. Do you not believe in anthropogenic climate change?

[Edim]

33. I do,

but only local (ALW, which is land use, UHI...). I don't believe in AGW.

[cprise]

32. Rank global warming denialism

Your statement is like saying that freeway collisions are OK because deer butt heads in the woods.

The atmosphere has not experienced warming this rapid in hundreds of millions of years. Most life would not be able to adapt that quickly... and humans have never experienced an Earth so hot as it may be in 2100.

There is nothing natural about it... we are supposed to be gradually entering an ice age right now if natural is what concerns you.

[Edim]

34. The alleged AGW started (became significant) after ~1960.

That's the consensus.


I see nothing unprecedented - there's a very similar warming ~1910-1940 (see the woodfortrees link too), so the atmosphere experienced warming this 'rapid' only ~60 years ago and very likely many times only during this interglacial (the Holocene).

[Gabby Hayes]

36. Go collect your $10 from the Koch Brothers

[cprise]

38. No, you're way off

The industrial revolution started well before the 1940s, and thousands of years prior there was a milder effect from agriculture. Statistically, the trend line keeps going up.





http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21729084.300-true-face-of-climates-hockey-stick-graph-revealed.html




What does past climate change tell us about global warming?
http://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-change-little-ice-age-medieval-warm-period-intermediate.htm

[defacto7]

27. All I can think about are my children and theirs...

My journey is about finished and I won't see the really bad times. They will. It is one thing that is always present on my mind.

[patrice]

28. Move in together. Earn income from home. Reduce, re-use, recycle, restore . . .

As much solar energy as possible.

Grow as much of your own food as possible. Don't buy prepared foods, because they require more energy to produce.

Fewer children.

...............................

I know those aren't the whole answer, but they will help.

[cprise]

30. Make sure that women have education and career prospects

...along with general access to contraception. This is mainly a social issue, but feminism could help save us... assuming it can regain some of its integrity.

The current business culture has proven itself both too corrupt and too chicken to responsibly handle a renewal of current nuclear energy capacity-- never mind the massive expansion the nuclear lobby had in mind. Plus, the existence of nuclear (and coal and gas) tends to advance the interests of oligarchs... centralized power generation translates into a power disparity in our society (this is partly reflected in how costs become wildly inflated once a community has committed to building nuclear plants). Finally, the existence of nuclear engenders paranoia with a resulting expansion of police state powers... terrorism becomes more potentially terrifying if nuclear materials might be involved, so every nook and cranny of our lives must be scrutinized in a nuclear economy (and this itself becomes a vast expenditure of resources). Nuclear will not play a very large role.

The solution will be a combination of renewable energy (which is gaining a real foothold even here in the US) and movement away from suburbia toward true urban environments with their efficient features (ability to walk & bike, public transport, dwellings that are easier to heat, etc.). These are current trends in the US. Refashioning of select suburban areas into more urban environs with walkable, narrower and even some car-free streets is an interesting possibility that would certainly help.

California and Germany have created financial incentives to develop and deploy electricity storage capacity (compressed air turbines, flow batteries, pumped hydropower, etc.) and industry is starting to deliver. Storage will become necessary once renewables reach beyond 40% of total electricity generation. The electric car plays a role in this as well by raising the economy of scale for battery production and creating a kind of actual battery capacity (which just happens to be on wheels).

There are also some geoengineering proposals that seem to be low-risk: Seeding clouds with sea water to make them brighter, biochar to store carbon in the soil while making it more drought resistant... are a couple of good examples. (IMO, putting sulfur dioxide in the atmosphere is not a good example.. it might create acid rain and more deforestation is not something we need).

Changes in diet are necessary too: Less meat (esp. beef) and more veg. I have beef about twice a year, and lean toward chicken when I have meat. There is a movement started by Paul McCartney called Meatless Monday... one vegetarian day per week.

On the financial end, we need to get corporate 'globalization' and runaway Finance under control and institute a "carbon tax" (actually greenhouse gas tax) to partially replace income tax to make sure that all of the above solutions get reflected in each person's day to day monetary transactions. This is very important, because an economic "race to the bottom" is also a race toward high greenhouse gas emissions.

BTW, you can always drop in at the Environment & Energy forum to discuss this stuff.

[Gabby Hayes]

35. Your best weapon is 21st Century communications

The power of instant communication to organize people and ideas has already proven it can move mountains in this 21st Century. Organized consumerism pushed Rush Limbaugh to the edge of extinction. Organized voices sparked the Arab Spring. Even as I write, the so-called "Anti-Bodies" are coming together around the world to fight pollution, begin the cleanup and plan for a manageable future in the new climate frontier.

The 20th Century offers countless examples of how humans learned to manage and/or clean up seemingly impossible messes. Granted, these were smaller, localized and regional messes (especially compared to present day problems) but 21st Century communications can almost instantly organize a thousand of these smaller tasks. Indeed, this will become a major industry in the 21st Century, and it will be backed by the same big money that was largely responsible for the mess. They know what they've done. Scattered among their public responses are small admissions of guilt, probably prompted by attorneys preparing for a possible defense before The World Court. The Big Money, meanwhile, is keeping its options open. They are looking for the exit and would like to lock the door behind them, but there is really nowhere for them to go. They will do what they have to do -- what they have no choice but to do -- and even though it won't be nearly enough, it all will serve as a grand lesson for Mankind as it begins to colonize the solar system in your lifetime. In the end, the experience and knowledge you earn will perhaps make yours the next Greatest Generation, a generation of wise men and wise women sending the next generation off in search of Mankind's destiny.

My generation will be there as long as you need us.