Students' tardiness leads to criminal charges for D.C. Parents.

[ohiosmith]

Detention for chronically late students is common, but what about parents in court because of their frequently tardy children? That’s happened to some parents in Loudoun County, Va.

Loudoun County Public Schools officials say that it’s about the welfare of the children and that the late arrivals disrupt class. At least one parent thinks the school district is trying to criminalize something the statutes don't permit.

Mark Denicore and his wife appeared in court in Loudoun County Monday morning for allegedly failing to get their three children to school on time.

“We are the first to admit we are not perfect and our kids are not perfect, but we are doing our very best and don't think in this case it should be criminal charges,” Denicore said.

Link: http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/07/10340810-students-tardiness-leads-to-criminal-charges-for-dc-parents

[Waiting For Everyman]

1. I agree 100% with the parents. This is way out of line.

It's much more of an offense to criminalize something which isn't a crime, than to be late. I'm sure the irony of that is lost on them. Back when my kids were in school I found that the schools which were hyper-interested in punctuality were the poorest at teaching anything. In my day (I'm a boomer, in school when US schools were #1 in the world), a lateness only needed a parent's note. No bigger deal than that was made about it. Somehow, we managed to get by that way.

[Lizzie Poppet]

3. While I generally agree with you...

While I generally agree with you, this specific case is pretty over-the-top. I mean, these kids were late one day out of every three! With the school a half-mile from their home, no less... It's pretty obvious the parents don't give a damn about their kids' education.

[Waiting For Everyman]

5. I don't see a difference even if the kids were late every day.

It's not a crime. And it's not important, it's trivia. Focusing on things like this is why our schools are failing.

What matters is whether the kids are learning, which doesn't have anything to do with lateness. The nazi attitude in our schools and toward our kids is inappropriate and has gone way too far.

[roguevalley]

10. since I taught for 27 years and know about this problem intimately

may I say its about fucking time. Learning has EVERYTHING to do with being on time. Honestly, try being late for work as much and see if it doesn't affect your ability and long term outlook.

If you want to argue about this fine. But know what you're talking about. Every minute a kid loses is gone forever. It matters. Parents, get your act together or arrange something better. It matters.

[WI_DEM]

19. I agree with you

that defense that being late has nothing to do with learning is pretty, well, stupid.

[roguevalley]

31. all these babies need to learn that school is the way out of

poverty. That was the path for me. I just could hardly bear it when my kids were truant. I had kids that never made it on time for one third of the school year. It really hurts them so much.

[The Genealogist]

38. Being an educator and supporting being on time, would this describe a good way to combat tardiness?

I had a high school English teacher that was very strict about tardiness. Buns on the seat the instant the bell rang, or you were tardy. One inch off the seat, and that is what it took. Each tardy had her taking class time to fill out forms for each tardy (sometimes several tardies per period). Then the student had to go to the central office to do more paperwork. Most teachers just marked down a tardy on an attendance sheet, and that was the end of it. Not this woman. This would be a 15 minute process for the tardy student, out of a 50 minute long class! I thought it was absurd. Nearly 1/3 of a class wasted on this trivial nonsense. I did not have to go through this garbage, luckily, as I hate being late. My stepmother is a chronically late person. I love her to death, but I think she uses her lateness to get attention. It has always driven me bonkers, and I think this is why I am so careful not to be late someplace. I can count on one hand the number of unexcused tardies I had in four years of high school. But can you imagine, in this kind of a setting, how many parents from that one teacher's class would probably be brought up on criminal charges? Sillier that the teacher nitpicking over buns an inch from the wood of a seat if you ask me.

[Waiting For Everyman]

42. Nearly everybody in my family is/was an educator. I think I do know what I'm talking about.

Both parents, 30+ years. Same for 2 aunts and an uncle, 3 cousins. 2 grandfathers and a great-father who was the only teacher in a rural area at the time. If anything is the "family business", teaching is. I also taught for a time myself. I've heard thousands of conversations about teaching in my time, since day one.

It's the corporations who care so much about punctuality - training the future underpaid workers to be on time or else. It has nothing to do with learning, which is what schools are supposed to be about. Schools are not to regiment people to be compliant, which is what their primary function has become today - and it shows. Doing more of the same will produce more of the same. We used to know how to educate people. We still could, if we went back to what our schools used to do right.

But nobody wants good schools again, not really. What we want today is to see our own attitudes actualized and enforced on other people. Children are a convenient target for that. It's always going to remain true that small minds have small concerns.

[roguevalley]

43. nearly everyone in my family is a lawyer. don't make me one.

[Honeycombe8]

44. The criminal court is no place for this sort of thing. Suspension is the answer.

It'd be like criminalizing failure of parents for making sure kids do homework, wear the right clothing, etc. Expecting the courts to do the school's job or the parent's job is way out of line. We have drug dealers, rapists, murderers, repeat offenders, and other criminals to attend to.

[Bandit]

32. Truancy is indeed a crime.

The LAW requires ALL children attend school until their 16th birthday or upon completion of eighth grade. The kids are not in school at the beginning of class as the LAW requires..There are RARE occurances when for some unforseen reason a child arrives late..Exceptions are made, but when it becomes chronic the Law is being broken.

[Lizzie Poppet]

39. I do.

As the article mentions, when someone's late, it's disruptive to the rest of the class. Every now and then? No big deal. One out of every three school days? Unfair to the other students. That does effect learning.

Oh, and -9000 for Godwinning the thread. Fail.

[eppur_se_muova]

2. Who will be most affected by this ? The working poor.

Just another excuse to beat up the victims.

[ohiosmith]

16. The victims are the children. Victims of poor parenting.

[Arkansas Granny]

37. You know, even the working poor have alarm clocks. If you can get kids to school

at all, you can get them there on time.

[woodsprite]

4. I've always had issues with our districts tardiness policy.

So I am stuck at an accident on a train track with no place to turn around, and I'm sitting directly behind a school bus heading to the same school. The bus and I arrive at the school at the same time (15 min after school starts). The whole busload of kids gets excused and it doesn't go on their record, but my kid gets Saturday detention on the record for unexcused tardy.

[WI_DEM]

20. depends on the circumstances, but these kids were tardy once every three days

so that is pretty excessive.

[MrCoffee]

6. The kids were tardy at least THIRTY times this year

What the hell is wrong with these parents? I simply don't believe them when they say they are "doing their best".

[ohiosmith]

9. I saw an interview with the father. He suggested that his kids be given detention rather than

punishing their parents.

[MrCoffee]

12. Why is he blaming the kids? They are in elementary school.

It is unquestionably the parents' job to get the kids to school on time.

[ohiosmith]

14. I agree. The guy came off a clueless dope.

[shcrane71]

7. Your child's tardiness and/or truancy shouldn't be a criminal offense

I'm convinced these are "those-people" laws. Laws that are meant for inner-city parents who are from working-class backgrounds and are often POC. A wise judge in Omaha recognized the classism and racism in their new truancy law, and applied it to white, affluent suburban parents. Lo' and Behold, that law is getting changed.

http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/Sons_Truancy_Case_Lands_Parents_In_Jail_121420379.html?storySection=story

[roguevalley]

11. every minute lost is a blow against a child. If you want to elevate

people don't allow stupid shit like this to be the norm. Grow up dawdling and welcome to the unemployment line some day.

[shcrane71]

45. Silly you. You know what happens when you criminalize EVERYTHING? Good people end up in jail, and

tax payers have to foot the bill to enforce some people's micro-managing. A really dumb truancy bill passed in Douglas County, Nebraska last year. You should have seen the outcry when a white, middle-class, suburban couple was dragged to jail. Apparently, the legislation wasn't meant to punish "people like that". Well, what sort of people was that legislation meant to punish?!?!

[roguevalley]

46. I am assuming you are being sarcastic in a good way. :)

[shcrane71]

47. It's true that these bills to punish parents with jail time for the child's truancy are racist &

classist.

[roguevalley]

49. I taught 27 years and you would be a bit broad with that bush opinion

Last edited Wed Feb 22, 2012, 04:07 PM - Edit history (1)

everyone in all classes does this and the loser is the kid.

edit. brush not bush. for the disengenuous

[shcrane71]

51. Bush opinion??? Is this a forum for progressives?

I can't believe that people here actually want to lock up parents for a child's truancy.

[shcrane71]

48. I apologize if I didn't understand your original replies sarcasm.

I readily realize I'm rather defensive -- call it conditioning. I'll try to relax.

[Arkansas Granny]

25. I don't know what "people" you think are going to be unfairly affected by this.

I was a single, working mother of 4 children. I managed to get them all up, cook breakfast and then get them all to school, and myself to work, without being tardy. It's something you do if it's important to you.

These parents are making excuses and teaching their kids to make excuses, also.

[ohiosmith]

30. Right on AG!

[shcrane71]

52. Working class, inner-city, or non-white people (without the quotation marks) are unfairly affected.

You may not feel that all humans are people, but those aren't my values.

[countingbluecars]

15. Just for the record

This is not a poor inner city family. They live in Waterford, one of the wealthiest communities in Loudoun County. The parents are lawyers. There is also a school bus available for these children.

[WI_DEM]

17. It's extreme and don't agree with it, but come on not one but THREE kids who

can't make it to class on time. I do think the parents need to do something--but criminalizing it isn't the solution.

[treestar]

18. this is not a good idea

It teaches the kids someone else is responsible for what they do in a way that goes too far.

[MrCoffee]

23. They are elementary school kids. Someone else IS responsible for them

The parents have a responsibility to get them to school on time.

[treestar]

28. Depends

I walked to school and was responsible for getting there. We got marked if we were late - each reports card had tardy and absence marks. There can never be a certainty about who is at fault for that and it may always be a combination.

But not worth criminalizing.

[ohiosmith]

24. And what is the lesson they are learning from their parents?

[treestar]

26. Not sure, maybe that being late is OK

And making excuses for it OK. That's bad. But not quite as bad as that someone else is literally responsible for what you do. When they grow up and make a mistake at work, the first reaction could be to find someone else to blame.

[ohiosmith]

29. Their parents are responsible for what they do, and should be accountable for failing in that

responsibility.

[WI_DEM]

21. my solution is to take the time that the kids were tardy (1 out of every 3 days)

and have them make it up on a Saturday (but then you are punishing the teacher who would have to sit with them)!!

[ohiosmith]

27. And punishing the children for the parents' failures.

[Dawson Leery]

22. Absurd.

From experience, I know that some school districts which are overly authoritarian.

[Blue_Tires]

33. The story doesn't say how or even if the school tried to talking to the parents

before filing charges...

I know there is more to the story, since "tardy" means between 1 and 30 minutes late...I'd like to know if the average tardy time was closer to the 1 or 30...

[ohiosmith]

34. More:

Mark Denicore said his family received numerous warnings and correspondence from the school system about his children’s tardiness, but the family has never had a conference with officials to discuss the issue. Mark Denicore did request a meeting between the school’s principal, attendance officer and legal counsel, but the school system never responded.


According to Mark Denicore’s records, his daughter Daisy has been late 29 times since September. His daughter, Sophie, has been late 27 times and his son, Tucker, has been late 29 times.

Link: http://www.loudountimes.com/index.php/news/article/waterford_parents_go_to_court_for_kids_constant_tardiness123/

[Blue_Tires]

36. I'm interested to know just how he requested the meeting, if true

and whether or not he tried to show up in person...

I know it's been 20+ years since I was in elementary school, but I do remember regular parent-teacher conferences at least 3-4 times a year, because it scared the piss out of me knowing the stories I told my parents about my school performance/behavior weren't going to jibe with my teacher's...

Is that just a thing of the past or what? And why isn't there bus service if the parents are that bad with time?

And whether intentional or not the dad sounds like a real jagg-off...He either must be the best attorney in the Commonwealth or the worst -- no middle ground...

[Arkansas Granny]

41. If they had received warnings and correspondence about the tardiness, why

didn't they do something to solve the problem instead of ignoring the warnings? Very irresponsible parents.

[dsc]

35. about flipping time

These parents are wholly irresponsible and richly deserve these charges. I bet these lawyers would have a paralegal late as often as these kids are fired immediately.

[surrealAmerican]

40. It seems like a visit from a social worker might be more appropriate here.

The parents clearly have a problem, but perhaps not one that should involve legal proceedings.

[Jennicut]

50. I am totally responsible for getting my kids (a first grader and a second grader) to school on time.

I have been late maybe 3 times over the last 5 years. I set my alarm clock wrong or forgot to set it and we were late. 3O times in one year is crazy (and the school year still has a few months left to it). I also sub in schools. It totally takes time away from the kids and their learning. One of my friends has a child in a magnet school that is 45 minutes away from her. She gets her daughter to school on time and she works. She gets her on the bus every morning. This guy, per this article, lives a half mile from the school. As an adult, you are responsible for your kids. If I dropped off my 6 and 7 year olds to school late all the time, it would be my fault and I would have to face the consequences.