Military chaplains; Church-state violation? Nostalgic sentiment? Providing for a right?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

Are they a violation of government funding of religious rights but maybe permitted out of sentiment to those serving in war? Is the government providing for a right as it does health care?

I'm kind of ambivalent. I have a soft-spot for those serving in the military so I'm biased but there's no doubt government money supports this practice of religion.

[WingDinger]

1. Those about to potentially die, must have spiritual freedom.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

2. But is that merely a sentiment?

As gracious as that sentiment may be, hard-constitutional facts don't/shouldn't yield to sentiment, otherwise the paper becomes useless.

It could also be argued that not all servcie members at all times are in harm's way.

[WingDinger]

3. What part of a military chaplain conflicts with the Con?

There are Wiccan chaplains too.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

4. Some might say the Establishment Clause.

Taxpayer money is being used to support religious practices. The 1st Amendment doesn't say pay for religious observances so long as it includes all religions. All the moreso if one considers the separation of church and state as a central support to secular government. I'm not sure there is a sentimental exception to such principles.

[hack89]

5. The Establishment Clause has been interperated to mean

the government cannot establish a state religion nor can they favor one religion over others. If all religions are treated equally then it is Constitutional. This has been US law for a long time.

Military chaplains are OK - they cater to all religions.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

8. But does equal treatment permit taxpayer funding? Not even a subsidy by wholly funded.

[hack89]

10. Yes - there is tons of case law on the subject. nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

11. As I said in my OP my bias is for the soldiers

Whatever my views on religion I'd give them a mulligan if it provided them comfort and assurance.

[MineralMan]

6. Military chaplains are necessary and do not violate the

Constitution. Military personnel may well be in places where they do not have access to religious services, whether they're in combat or not. Each member of the military has the right to worship as he or she sees fit. So, the military provides chaplains, to enable that. Nobody is forced to attend any services at all, but all are provided the opportunity to do so if they wish.

Note: I am an atheist, and was the first atheist to have that on my dogtags in the USAF, as far as I know, in 1965. It wasn't easy.

[MNBrewer]

7. Does the right to worship as he or she sees fit necessitate

a government funded minister at their side?

[MineralMan]

9. Yup. For example, Catholics need a priest

to administer the sacrament of communion. It is an integral part of worship for them. Most people consider worship in a church, led by a minister to be a crucial part of their religion's beliefs.

The military has had chaplains all along. There is no Constitutional conflict, since there is no requirement to worship. However, just like the military provides housing and food to its personnel, it also provides a means to worship according to the beliefs they hold. Denying that would make military service unattractive to many, and is necessary when a draft is in place.

It's a waste of time and thought to try to find a way to eliminate the chaplains' service.

Even though I was an atheist, I had occasion to use the services of a chaplain while serving, to help solve a difficult problem with the military. A Jewish chaplain was of great assistance to me. Chaplains serve a number of roles in the military, not just a purely religious role. Like military doctors, they have rank, but also often act as intermediaries in a number of ways, and have a pretty free hand in doing so.

I would never deny anyone the services of a chaplain who serves in the military, even though I have no religious beliefs. I recognize that others do, and that those beliefs are important to them in many ways.

[MNBrewer]

12. I disagree

If the RCC wants to pay to have their priests there, fine.

[MineralMan]

14. You'll lose on this one every time.

It's a waste of time and thought.

[MNBrewer]

15. I agree that no thought has gone into it, the way it stands

That's for sure. One person's "right to worship as they see fit" does not imply a right to have it paid for by the Government.

Should one of the Phelps klan get a government pension to minister to the God Hates Fags constituency in the military? It's nonsensical for them, why not all of the religious cults?

[MineralMan]

16. Silliness. The military has had chaplains all along.

It will continue to have chaplains. Waste of energy and outrage. I'm done with this discussion. I have real stuff to work on.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

17. Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!

Those Phelps bastards protest military funerals and is pretty much hated in RW circles. The Patriot Riders who harass the Phelps to keep them from disrupting military funerals are a case in point. You might want to think twice before you go around throwing-out easily disproven claims just to slander the military.

[MNBrewer]

18. 1. I don't see where you think i've "slandered" the military

2. You don't think there are some people in the military that agree with the Phelps's?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

20. 1. It was a pretty vague statement.

2. I don't see many military types supporting assholes who hold signs saying, "Thank God for IEDs" and "Thank God for Dead Soldiers"

[MNBrewer]

21. Of the 2,937,899 people in the military might there be some who agree that "God Hates Fags"?

Where were the RW types when the Phelps's were only protesting gay funerals? Where were the soldiers and their supporters?

They only showed up when they brought the military into it. If Westboro was still only protesting gay funerals, do you think the military and their supporters would give a shit?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

23. My husband slammed a gay-basher who threatened my BF

But that probably doesn't count.

[MNBrewer]

25. I don't even understand that

You have a husband and a boyfriend? How modern

[Nuclear Unicorn]

27. BF = best friend; although he's often described as my gay boyfriend

Every girl should have one. He's my bestest bud. I tell him, "I wish you were straight." and he tells me, "I wish you had a penis." He's romantic like that.

We were hanging out one night last month when my BF went out for a cigarette and a phone call. Two gay-bashers followed him out and when my husband saw them push my BF he slammed one of them into a truck. Shouting. Threats. Cops. It was a helluva night. I was pretty emotional afterwards. had to post about it in the Lounge.

[MNBrewer]

32. THese marines, for example.

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2012/02/marines-sport-nazi-ss-flag-afghanistan

[Hugabear]

33. There ARE hard-core fundie chaplains in the US military

I should know - my parents used to take us to one while living on a military base overseas.

[DevonRex]

13. I see it a little differently.

Say a devout Catholic or Muslim or Jew is mortally wounded. There are certain rites that need to be performed whenever possible before that soldier dies. And there are certain religious laws regarding the handling of the body and burial practices.

Chaplains are trained in these rites and laws and really do their best to minister to the needs of these soldiers. They are also trained in counseling, without the religious aspect.

Another thing is that there are times when soldiers cannot leave post, like when they are on certain types of alert so the only services they can attend are on post. Soldiers who have been incarcerated obviously cannot simply leave to go to church or the synagogue.

There are issues that arise because of military service that civilian pastors simply cannot deal with effectively. Like killing being part of your job description.

[LanternWaste]

19. The rationale for military and congressional chaplains is that when

The rationale for military and congressional chaplains is that when the government calls people away from home to render services to their nation, it takes them away from their home churches and religious community, a potential infringement on their right to free exercise of their religion.

Hence, many then believe it is the government's responsibility to make up for that absence by providing some means of religious support.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

22. Don't personal liberties often take a backseat to military protocol?

Soldiers certainly don't get the same 1st Amendment rights WRT speech and there's no such thing as illegal search and seizure in the barracks.

Not fault-finding, mind you. I'm sort of playing Devil's advocate.

[hack89]

24. When asking young men and women to risk their lives

I think some accommodation is called for. The Constitution is not supposed to be an iron club wielded by heartless government officials.

The accommodation our society has settled on is that it is OK as long as all religions are treated equally. And that the non-religious are not discriminated against. Which is what has happened in the military for decades.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

28. My thought too but I can't help but think it's my bias. n/t

[hack89]

30. Why are tying yourself into knots over this?

it is not a threat to our Constitution or our society. Let it be.

[Prophet 451]

26. I tend to see it as providing for a right

Of course, that assumes either a chaplain for each of the major faiths (limited to major faiths for practicality).

[FSogol]

29. They are an employee benefit. n/t

[riderinthestorm]

31. This is a good question SCOTUS has never heard a case about military chaplaincy and the Constitution

I've wondered about it myself. There actually are groups now that are working to try to remove chaplains from the services because of the evangelism - it's pushed some buttons in the service. You can google for links for groups that are beginning the legal processes.

Here's an excellent conversation about the chaplaincy and it's constitutionality in the meanwhile... I've only posted the first paragraph from the article. Enjoy!

Organized religion in the military
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/890/religion-in-the-military

"Over the past few years, several controversies over religion's role in the military have arisen. Most recently, students and staff at the U.S. Naval Academy and West Point have complained of pressure from their supervisors to engage in religious activities. Three years earlier, similar allegations surfaced at the U.S. Air Force Academy. Other controversies have arisen over whether military chaplains may offer faith-specific prayers at official military events. With cadets, military officers and chaplains asserting competing constitutional rights, these disputes have raised complicated questions. To clarify these issues, the Pew Forum turned to church-state scholar Robert W. Tuttle."

Featuring:
Robert W. Tuttle, Professor of Law and Religion, George Washington University Law School

Interviewer:
Jesse Merriam, Research Associate, Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life