General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsTo the people asking why they don't have basements or tornado-proof...
houses or buildings, a few things to keep in mind.
First, I think public buildings, such as schools, should have, at the very least, storm shelters, either in the form of underground ones, or reinforced rooms. Our local malls, around here, are required to have such things, or at least, they all have them.
That's fine and good, that's practical, however, people seem to be under the impression that building a tornado proof home for yourself, or your family, is cheap and easy.
First off, basements, we have them in droves here, and in older houses, we at least have cellars, but they aren't the end all, be all that they can be. A few years ago, we had some kids hunker in a basement during a tornado, the supporting wall for their chimney was ripped away, and that chimney landed on them, they didn't survive.
A couple of considerations, basements have limited utility, even in areas where they are common, they increase your chances of surviving, no question, but they aren't proof against all types of tornadoes or storms. You have to take into consideration the water table, frost line, the type of soil you are building in, and the ultimate cost of all of it. A high water table means mold, and mold means all sorts of nasty chemical reactions that make people sick and may render the building unlivable.
Building above ground, tornado proof, houses is also problematic in one regard, cost, concrete and steel rebar are not cheap, yes, you can build houses that can withstand an F5 or greater, and they will be houses for millionaires only. Building berms is also, while cheaper in money value, more expensive in other ways, you are talking about moving a LOT of earth as barrier to create homes and/or shelters for people. In places with little topsoil, or topsoil that isn't conductive to being piled up like this, its not practical, and in other places, it will be highly disruptive. We can't recreate the Shire everywhere, even if it would be cool.
Community shelters are slightly more practical, and frankly I think we should concentrate on these in areas where they can have a positive effect, but again, this is about minimizing lives lost, it won't eliminate entirely. Tornadoes are highly unpredictable and can appear from no where with no warning.
I remember I was driving on the way to work, it was mid morning, after rush hour, on a 6 lane highway, highway 370, in a rural area of St. Charles County, Missouri. It had nasty looking clouds that morning, but seemed calm, no rain, and the sun was even peeking through in places. I glance north, looking at that flat flood plain with the huge fields of corn, and all of the sudden a little finger of a cloud stretched to the ground, tore a line in a corn field about a half mile away or so, and then disappeared back where it came from, all in the span of a few minutes, at most. Luckily it only tore up some corn, but if a house was there, it would have been fucked. Can't really do much about that, but hope it doesn't happen to you.
DCKit
(18,541 posts)This was an elementary school. Where do cost or difficulty come into the discussion?
What are the lives of twenty+ kids worth?
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Horse with no Name
(33,956 posts)built a community shelter with federal funds.
The report is in this link and it talks about the soil, etc of part of the area (Tornado Alley) that people are talking about.
www.fema.gov/library/viewRecord.do?id=3091
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Though, I'm glad we had a basement, my Mom was paranoid about storms, and we had to gather the cats and dogs and my sister and I would be stuck in the basement, half the time with the power out because the storm was that bad, playing board games or something, till she determined it was safe for us to come back upstairs.
Cha
(297,446 posts)the '50s out on the Plains of Eastern Colorado. To access.. you went out the back door and it had a big wooden door on the ground. It was stocked with all kinds of cans and canned goods. Quite intiguing as a child. I wish I knew if they ever had to use it.
In the '90s my mother's hometown.. one town over from my grandparents home was flattened by a Tornado and miraculousy no one was killed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limon,_Colorado#1990_Tornado
fizzgig
(24,146 posts)i was only 9, but i remember how devastating that was.
Cha
(297,446 posts)I moved to Kaua'i just in time for Hurricane Iniki, 9/11/92.
I was 46
fizzgig
(24,146 posts)Cha
(297,446 posts)fizzgig
(24,146 posts)do you remember when they released tom sutherland in 91? he was the former colorado state university professor who was held hostage in lebanon for nearly 6 1/2 years. his release is another vivid memory from my childhood, but it's one that i don't seem to share with many people. i think we still have the front page of the paper from the day he got home.
Cha
(297,446 posts)Thomas Sutherland (born May 3, 1931), former Dean of Agriculture at the American University of Beirut in Lebanon was kidnapped by Islamic Jihad members near his Beirut home on June 9, 1985.[1] He was released on November 18, 1991[2] at the same time as Terry Waite,[2] having been held hostage for 2353 days.
Born in Falkirk, Scotland on May 3, 1931,[1] Sutherland obtained a BSc in Agriculture from Glasgow University,[3] and moved to the United States in the 1950s.[4] He was awarded a master's degree and PhD in animal breeding from Iowa State University,[5] then taught animal science at Colorado State University for 26 years.[4] He moved to Beirut in 1983 for a three-year term as dean of the faculty of agriculture and food science in the American University in Beirut.[6] Despite the assassination of University President Malcolm Kerr and the kidnapping of Professor Frank Reiger in 1984, and despite being warned repeatedly by the State Department to leave, Sutherland remained at the University[citation needed]. Two weeks after David P. Jacobsen was abducted, Sutherland was also kidnapped while using the limousine of University President Calvin Plimpton. Upon his release, Sutherland claimed that the kidnappers mistook him for Plimpton.[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sutherland_(academic)
thanks for the historic memory, fizzgig Observant 9 year old.
Response to Humanist_Activist (Original post)
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Hekate
(90,755 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Any new public building should have at least a small section built to be able to withstand big winds. Such a thing may have saved many children today. We ask these kids to be there, we should do what we can to ensure they are safe.
A small twister popping down from the sky is not going to wreck a properly built school building "all of a sudden". This storm today was one with minutes of warning due to its size and growth curve. The students were gathered in what was thought to be a safe place, but it wasn't. It could have been tho, and when rebuilt, it probably will contain a real safe place.
It is, in a sense, a gamble. This time we lost. Maybe next time we win? It is good to win, eh?
hollysmom
(5,946 posts)After all the F5 tornado blew through there before - bet we find it was built by a buddy of one of the mayors or governors and didn't meet the standards it claimed.
As to a storm shelter, just saw an interview on TV of a closet sized storm cellar below a house. They got 6 people and some pets down there and they all survived uninjured - the room paid for itself today. There should be area shelters no more than a block away, maybe one per block built by the developer. The main issue is how to keep kids out of it, maybe have a siren go off if the door is opened. These houses were built after the F5 - the developers should be responsible for not having precautions - more payoffs I assume or an ignorant public.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)that is the only way to go if you are going to develop these tornado alleys. Anything else is not morally right.
hollysmom
(5,946 posts)if there were more topography would the tornadoes get so big? developments should not be so flat.
edited to add - or maybe not - upon googling, this does not seem to help at all.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)put back geology & natural landscaping formed since the ice age even if it did slow down tornado formation. If you are going to move earth around to deal with tornadoes, do it in excavating underground burrows and pushing up berms to build into. Think low.
There absolutely should be more attention to building, land use & planning in tornado alley.
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)The easiest way to keep costs down, is to convince people that underground shelters are not "necessary"...
If I had MY way, each developer would have to provide underground community shelters for tornadoes if they were building in areas prone to them...unless they provide basements.
There was a time when public safety mandated fallout shelters all over the place...even in small communities.
It also is time to revisit the TYPE of building in prone areas.. I kept hearing yesterday about how the really old stone & brick buildings fared pretty well, but the more "modern" brick homes did not.
Most modern "brick" houses are made from porous concrete block, pine 2x4's, drywall & brick veneer (for looks).
They may look like brick houses, but they are not.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)at least on the coast, and no basements. Roofs have to be built to code to sustain a certain mpr hurricane force winds. The newer schools I have worked in have metal hurricane shutters on the windows.
Couple of years ago while at school we had a tornado warning when we were outside with the kids. We brought them into the classroom, closed the hurricane shutters, and took them into the bathroom. The schools have sirens which go off whether or not school is in session. I can hear the sirens from my home.
ErikJ
(6,335 posts)scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)SQUEE
(1,315 posts)wildfire prone areas... going to get mighty crowded in Idaho or western Colorado....
MADem
(135,425 posts)actually have to REPRESENT a few people.
SQUEE
(1,315 posts)I spent 6 days stuck on I-80 at a small Flying J...
shireen
(8,333 posts)The OP is right. As horrific as this is, the odds of being directly affected by a tornado are relatively rare. For places where bedrock is close to the surface, the question becomes, is it worth the expense to excavate into rock and provide necessary reinforcements to create a safe shelter, considering the low odds of a tornado passing through my house?
It's a hard thing to say in the wake of this devastating event, but those are the kinds of decisions that are considered when homes are built. It's all about the odds.
Buildings that accomodate large numbers of people -- schools, office buildings, malls -- should have shelters. That's just common sense. But as you get into smaller units, like storefronts and homes, the decision becomes more difficult.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)bathroom or a walk-in closet that is reinforced. It doesn't take a big space to hold 6-8 people.
It was fine when we thought Russia was going to drop the bomb. How about building shelters for the real threat?
shireen
(8,333 posts)while watching Rachel today, I learned about Safe Rooms built to withstand tornadoes. These should be built into homes and commercial areas.
http://www.fema.gov/safe-room-resources/fema-p-320-taking-shelter-storm-building-safe-room-your-home-or-small-business
MADem
(135,425 posts)JFK signed an executive order that Guam would improve their housing survivability after a major taifun in the early sixties; fifty years on and many dozens of taifuns later--some of them of the "super" variety--the improved buildings are STILL standing.
If it's too expensive, then maybe people shouldn't be living in that area. Otherwise, I think the thing to do is find a way to build hardened shelters. I don't think it is too expensive--I think that if many buildings are built, and the standard of construction is changed from a shitty sheet rock and matchsticks to concrete and rebar and those berms, that economies of scale will bring costs down.
We should start with schools. Build 'em like they do in Guam and Okinawa. They have super taifuns, that sometimes stall for a couple of days, beating on the islands, but no one dies. That's good construction for ya.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)but now that the cold war is over, they don't think to build those into schools (or communities) any longer. It's sad really, when you see the devastating effects of these "super" tornados lately. If we aren't going to do anything about climate change, the least we can do is figure out a way to keep people safe from its effects.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Mother Nature.
I just saw pictures of a 94 year old woman whose home had been destroyed not once, but twice, by tornadoes.
Once is more than enough--when someone gets hit twice, with total destruction, in the same damn place, there's something wrong with the location and the architecture.
We can do this...we put an American on the moon, surely we can come up with housing and buildings that are safe--or at least safeR-- against extreme weather.
Justice
(7,188 posts)avebury
(10,952 posts)best for including basements in home construction. Liability concerns are now impacting some places for opening up some buildings during tornadoes. If you can afford it, a tornado shelter is a good way to go. There are definitely some places in Oklahoma I would not live unless I had a tornado shelter installed. I am pretty lucky that my house is in a location that (so far knock on wood) has not been impacted by tornadoes.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)So everyone who wants to retrofit all these building should add a serious pumping and drainage system as well.