I disagree with Rachel tonite on the issue of a ticker parade for Iraq Vets

[LiberalFighter]

Especially and mostly the part that those that didn't go over there need the parade.

But even on the parade it is imo a waste of time. The vets need to be assimilated back into their old jobs if they want or find good jobs for them. They need to be healed as needed both physically and mentally. Rather than spend all that expense on parades put it into programs to help them. NYC won't be the only place that wants to put on a parade. A parade is for only one day. It needs to be long term and effective instead of just show.

[Bonobo]

1. Rah-rahs are good politics.

But I also don't think we need to glorify the shameful acts of the US in the last 10 years. They destroyed an ancient nation and the damage we did will continue for uncounted generations.

Their infrastructure is still destroyed and the emotional and physical damage (down to the genetic level!) will be our longest lasting legacy.

Shameful. Let it end quietly without further cheerleading.

[denbot]

7. A veterans service is far from shameful.

Those of us who served, did just that, served. Those that sent us deserve blame for anything "shameful" resulting from our service. The Bush Admistration sent service men and women in country, they are the "they" you speak of, not my fellow veterans.

[pamela]

23. Well said.

[Drahthaardogs]

35. So true.

Politicians pick the battles, soldiers fight the wars. Right or wrong, they risk their lives so that there countrymen can continue to live theirs.

[Arugula Latte]

59. Anyone who has paid any attention to history in the past several decades

knows that, if you sign up for U.S. military service, you have a damn good chance of be mis-used and ordered to inflict harm on innocent people who pose no threat to this country. You are there to serve U.S. corporate interests.

[cherokeeprogressive]

81. Well said and I concur. +1000

Good to see you. Did you go to the driving school?

[pinboy3niner]

8. Parades celebrate the END of war, and those who served

When Vietnam vets got their FIRST big parade--in Chicago, in 1986--it was many years AFTER the war, and no one at that time was of a mind to celebrate the war. It was a too-long-delayed 'Welcome Home' parade for those who served.

In the same way, the memorial built on the National Mall in Washington, D.C. is not a war memorial, as its official name makes clear: It is the Vietnam Veterans Memorial.

[Luminous Animal]

12. I won't celebrate useful idiots.

[denbot]

13. Just to let you know, it was me who alerted on your post.

Idiots for service to our country? Really?

[Luminous Animal]

16. No."Useful idiots". A political and historical term.

Those that are used by the 1% to sacrifice for the interests of the 1%.

[denbot]

17. Bullshit, it was a blanket insult to veterans. You should be ashamed.

Why don't you drop by your nearest V.A. hospital and inform them on the political, and historical meaning of their service. If you lack the guts for that, drop by the Veterans Group and enlighten us. Your just an anonymous keyboard commando, so it should be safe enough for you.

BTW, I am familiar with the original reference.

[Luminous Animal]

21. Well, no it wasn't and I am not ashamed.

Why don't you drop by your nearest Veterans for Peace office and get a schooling from them.

[denbot]

38. I have, also I'm active with vote vets, and wounded warriors.

And you?

[Muskypundit]

18. And "useless idiot" is what we veterans call internet posters

Who think themselves better than us.



Acquaint yourself to that historical meaning.

[pinboy3niner]

97. No. You can't claim 'useful idiots' is simply a term of art and get a free pass.

It's a slur on everyone who wears, or who has worn, a U.S military uniform. Including the draftees of the VN era and today's poverty draftees.

The term is biased, uninformed and just plain ignorant. It's very close to being as demeaning and dehumanizing as calling someone a 'gook' or a 'slope' or a 'raghead.'

[Luminous Animal]

99. Who's looking for a free pass? I was quite clear in regards to usage

no matter how much you attempt to make it mean something that it doesn't. It is no more disparaging than "unwitting dupes." The men & women who fought in the Iraq war put their life and liberty NOT for freedom, NOT for democracy; NOT for the vast majority of their fellow citizens, but rather, for the purpose of advancing the interests of the 1%. Cheney, et.al., laughed all the way to the bank. Not one of the past, present, or future Iraq war profiteers give a flying fuck if every single person who served there ends up begging on the street.

Modern usage of "useful idiots":

"Useful idiot" is often used as a pejorative term for those who are seen to unwittingly support a malignant cause through their naive attempts to be a force for good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot#Modern_usage

http://www.wordnik.com/words/useful%20idiot

The Iraq and Viet Nam wars were little but malignant causes.

[pinboy3niner]

101. No one but you is trying to change the meaning

Even in defending the term, you cite its use is PEJORATIVE. To use it and continue to defend its use even when it has been made very obvious that others have strong emotional reactions and are very much offended, is highly insensitive.

[Luminous Animal]

102. I've not changed the meaning, at all. In fact, I reaffirmed it by citing

sources.

Last time I looked, pejoratives are allowed. There are a gazillion things that may offend people. I find it offensive that we are supposed to honor "warriors" who have destroyed the lives of millions. Who have blown innocents to smithereens. Who drive civilizations to homelessness, hunger, and disease.

[pinboy3niner]

108. Yeah, we were only in it to destroy the lives of millions and blow innocents to smithereens

I stand corrected. If they'd have put that on the recruiting poster, we'd have gone (or been dragged in) even quicker!

btw, the meaning of 'pejorative':

"a word or phrase that has negative connotations or that is intended to disparage or belittle"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pejorative

[Luminous Animal]

112. I do know the meaning.

And I wasn't trying to make friends when I used the term "useful idiots."

That you are anyone else didn't join up to destroy things does not negate the fact that massive misery and death and decades of personal and societal degradation has been the usual outcome of our military misadventures.

If we were honest with ourselves, severed body parts, blacked out cities, raw sewage in the streets, severe birth defects, people living abjectly poorly in refugee camps... those images would be on recruiting posters.

[pinboy3niner]

123. I've actually seen severed body parts

I know, all too intimately, the horrors of war.

On a lot of things, you and I agree. But you're still missing one of the lessons of Vietnam--about separating the war from the warrior. I can't help being reminded of this...

[pinboy3niner]

14. I feel sorry for you

To generalize to that extent and write off a very large group of people as not worth you interest or understanding or empathy is just sad.

People who, whatever you may think of them, subordinated their self-interest to serve what they saw as a larger cause, hazarding their own life and limb.

You may judge them as mistaken. A lot of them joined up at 18 or 19, when they couldn't be accused of having such experienced and mature views as yours. But they put their lives on the line to serve something other than themselves. You can't take that away from them.

I've been there and done that. Does that make me, too, one of your "useful idiots"?

[Luminous Animal]

19. I won't celebrate that they put their lives on the line so that

the military industrial corporations can continue to slaughter people all over the world.

I have a mature view and thank me that I raised my daughter with a mature view so that she didn't get sucked into being a useful idiot for the greatest imperial state this world has ever known.

In the 22 years that she has been alive she has had the "privilege" of living in a country that has slaughtered and displaced million of people. Millions.. She live in a country that has destroyed cities, towns, and villages. That has driven millions into refugee camps. That has contributed to starving parentless children.

You know what I celebrate? I celebrate that when she was 11 years old, she was willing to be arrested when protesting the this war.

[Muskypundit]

20. Your a real fuckin hero.

Let me get you a couple more hearts, you mature, mature soul.

[Luminous Animal]

22. You meant to say..,

You're a real fucking hero.

And thanks for the hearts.

[pinboy3niner]

27. No. They put their lives on the line for each other.

I served because I listened to JFK. When he said, "Ask not what you country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country," I was young and I took it to heart.

I volunteered for the draft, for infantry, for OCS, for Vietnam, and for combat duty.

I turned 21 on a hill in the A Shau Valley on a night when I was sure I was going to die.

I led an Infantry platon that at one point volunteered unanimously--all 36 guys--for a suicidal mission to rappel into a heavy firefight only because we had a man down with a sucking chest wound and they were willing to risk their lives to try to save him--even though he was an officer.

Those good, good men were the "useful idiots" I was proud to serve with.

Later, I got hit with AK fire and was medevac'd to the States. For 18 months I lived on the hospital floor that had all the facial casualties and the amputees.

I guess you never heard the kinds of stories I heard from those guys. About struggling to survive, and to save others. Not a word about military industrial corporations.

Like one friend of mine who jumped on a grenade to save his squad. They gave that "useful idiot" the Medal of Honor.

Another friend and roommate was awarded the Medal of Honor posthumously. I recently got a Christmas card from his parents. To you, a "useful idiot." Would you tell them that? The men he saved by his sacrifice will always remember him.

To generalize and dismiss so many human beings as nothing but "useful idiots" is far more narrow-minded and ignorant than the ignorance you ascribe to them.

[Luminous Animal]

28. Glad you are alive. Sorry you think risking your life was worth it.

I don't.

What did your friend who jumped on a grenade win? Cheap slave labor for U.S. corporations in Viet Nam?

Yep.

[moriah]

29. At the time....

Given that a lot of his buddies probably were not in Vietnam by choice...

It was probably worth it to him to save his friends lives. It was not about Vietnam and the political issues -- it was about getting as many of their brothers out alive as they could.

Your arguments may apply to an all volunteer army, but the poor souls who were drafted were just as much victims as the Vietnamese civilians and their soldiers who were also forced to fight.

[DevonRex]

55. So you'd only insult half the veterans here. Thanks for nothing. nt

[pinboy3niner]

34. "Sorry you think risking your life was worth it."

So, out of all that I wrote, all you got was something I didn't say.

You don't have a fucking clue about how I or any of us reflect on that experience. It happened. We lived it. We still live with it. When you put people in a pigeonhole as "clueless idots" and don't listen to them, you'll never understand.

My friend? He saved a lot of lives. In real life. But because he WENT to war, you dismiss him, and what he did when he got there and forever after means nothing to you. That's snap-judgmental and myopic and utterly clueless.

[JSnuffy]

49. Don't let him yank your chain...

The difference between a child like that and a guy like you is you know how to put your physical body on the line for something bigger than yourself.

I know it because I see it in my generation when we deploy around the world.

Don't let the toddler pulling on your pant leg slow you down.

"A young man who does not have what it takes to perform military service is not likely to have what it takes to make a living. Today's military rejects include tomorrow's hard-core unemployed." - JFK

[pinboy3niner]

53. Thanks for your support

The first time I heard someone tell me, "Welcome home" was 16 years after I was medevac'd back and I collapsed in tears in his arms.

What the real IDIOTS miss when they call US 'useful idiots' is that we were willing to put OUR LIVES, and OUR BLOOD on the line.

I spilled my blood in a fucked-up war in Vietnam. Since then, this 'idiot' has protested against war. But what do I know? I'm only a 'useful idiot.'

[Wait Wut]

63. I agree with JSnuffy.

As a Marine mom, the comments here obviously infuriate me. Months ago, someone managed to read my son's mind and told me the "truth" about why he joined the Corps. All of the hours...days...that he and I spent discussing his decision meant nothing. Apparently, my son was lazy and had no direction. (where's the "fuck you" smiley when we need it?)

I find there's a lot more support here than the opposite. I've decided to stay out of most fights on the subject. Let's just celebrate the fact that we all have the freedom to speak here. Just as we have the freedom to not give a shit about any narrow-minded, self-righteous comments.

[pinboy3niner]

65. I understand your son is getting out now

Tell him "Semper Fi" from an Army Infantry VN vet.

Some of us get it...some never will.

[Wait Wut]

71. Will do!

This "should be" his last week!

I don't mind some people not getting it. What I do mind is the lack of compassion and understanding. Especially on a site such as this.

[Number23]

74. "Don't let the toddler pulling on your pant leg slow you down."

Could NOT agree more.

[Leopolds Ghost]

113. Wait a minute, in the above sub-thread we have vets saying that non-vets are inferior social rejects

And non-vets saying that veterans are godforsaken evil working-class people.

Do I have that right?

The truth is that combat vets join combat battalions primarily for the opportunity to experience the thrill of combat. It is an immense mark of respect to have been blooded (blooded -- not bloodied -- i.e. to have killed a man) in combat, especially in the south. That is what used to be the glue that kept our society together.

Consider this (a figure often quoted by a family friend who is a vet -- medical corps) -- until recently, it was a requirement for the normal functioning of the military promotion system that a war occur at least once every ten years. Without it, the rules on promotion and medals for senior officers would have to be changed.

[pinboy3niner]

119. No, you don't have it right--your post is fucked up

First, where the hell do you see vets saying "non-vets are inferior social rejects"???

Second, the notion that people join to experience "the thrill of combat" and to kill people is wrong in so many ways. A few sociopaths may slip lthrough the psych screening, but most are rejected. Moreover, very few in the military are combat troops.

P.S.--Vets don't "join combat battalions." People entering military service are tested for aptitude and assigned to jobs/units based upon the needs of the service. The service member can submit a "wish list"--but how much do you think that counts to the Pentagon?

[Leopolds Ghost]

130. I am just getting tired of reading posts from family of Marines talking about how the rest of us are

Somehow less than a man because we have not volunteered to serve in combat and have not experienced the horrors of war or PTSD.

Have they ever considered that it might be more honorable not to serve? At least in my politics and upbringing (religious or otherwise)...*

Put it another way, it is honorable to put ones life on the line in defense of another man, is it honorable to engage in nonviolence?

That does not mean it is not more of a sacrifice to, well, sacrifice their life or health in the line of duty. But is people who have sacrificed more honorable than those who have not served?

Or maybe I AM fucked up. Maybe the whole concept of honor basically implies that I have risked my life for someone, which is usually only possible in combat and certainly can't be sought out otherwise. If so then I AM less of an honorable person than my friends and family who were in the military. That's what I was getting at.

(if serving means in support of combat. Not sure if I need that qualifier though, this is really a cultural issue that folks who come from other backgrounds that regard pacifism with hostility won't agree with)

[pinboy3niner]

134. Are you reading wingnut websites?

That's usually where you find that kind of John Wayne BS.

Remember that conservatives are pretty heavily invested in the MIC and even legit vets there have to toe the party line. Some don't even need to be told--they're troglodytes, which explains why they're attracted to those sites.

DU may be a better source for veteran views. We may not always agree--but at least we won't threaten to kill you if you say the wrong thing.

[JSnuffy]

135. Just because...

... someone accomplishes something that is above and beyond the norm doesn't mean they are spitting on you.

Lance Armstrong is an amazing cyclist. That doesn't make me a terrible one. I'm just average.

Einstein was a math genius. That doesn't mean I can't help with my kid's geometry homework. I'm just average

Someone who knows what it means to protect others and attempts remove elements from society deemed non-acceptable at their physical and emotional expense... That person knows something you might not know or have a characteristic you don't have but it doesn't make you a bad person. It just makes you average, like the vast majority of the people in the US. This isn't limited to military service BTW, it is just the most poignant example.

[Leopolds Ghost]

144. Is that what the war in Iraq was about?

My impression is that most combat vets who understand what's going on in this country don't revel in their wartime experience and use it to suggest that they are exceptional individuals. They are merely the same as anyone else, simply had that experience. Of course that means that they have experience (including horrible experiences) that other people do not. Place a person in that situation and they will be self-sacrificing or not, depending on how they were brought up...

And I reject the notion that I am average because I have not served in combat.

[JSnuffy]

145. Then I suggest you crack a math book...

If 99% of the population is one thing and 1% of the population is another thing. Then the majority is the norm and "average."

[11 Bravo]

69. You're a better man than I am, EL-TEE. I'm pretty sure that by now the words ...

"eat shit and die" would have made their way into at least one of my responses.

HOOAH! And welcome home, my brother.

[pinboy3niner]

80. Hey, brother

I won't pretend that that response didn't occur to me, lol!

You've been there...you know. Our usernames betray how much that fucking war is still with us. Once an 11 Bravo, always an 11 Bravo...and that CIB still means something. My last radio callsign in-country, after they switched from the 'six' system to random number callsigns, was 'pinboy3niner'.

I thought this thread was dead. But it keeps coming back...like jungle leeches. Got some bug juice, bro? Or a match?

Yeah, I tried to be civil here--even though the thread began just when I'd gone through some anniversary dates. The day I got hit, Feb. 7, was never a big one for me (though it was always there). Much tougher was Jan. 29, the day my friend went down with the sucking chest wound and the men in my platoon proposed that suicidal mission to try to save him. Our Bn. 'six' turned us down. Just as well, as Joe didn't have a chance. He died either going up on the jungle penetrator or on the deck of the Medevac Huey, when it finally was able to get in.

The 'useful idiot' slurs, like the old 'baby killer' slurs, don't bother me so much for myself as they bother me for guys like Joe, and all the others we knew, and loved, and lost. And the other guys we were with, who, when push came to shove, were so willing to lay down their lives to try to save a comrade.

I hope you're doing good, bro, and weathering your own anniversary dates.

But be that as it may, those of us who did make it have an obligation to build again. To teach to others what we know. And to try, with what's left of our lives, to find a goodness and a meaning to this life...

From one useful idiot to another...Welcome Home, Brother!

Love & Peace,
pinboy3niner

[pinboy3niner]

98. P.S.--I'm still tempted, seeing the thread still going

My very, very profane post would be hidden in short order--but it would feel pretty damn good to let it out.

[Drahthaardogs]

36. You are over the top.

I may have been a "useful idiot" but you are a repugnant hypocrite. Do you really think that your wonderful 11-year old daughter could have ever had the opportunity for being arrested without men and women like myself? That she could exercise that right speak volumes of the sacrifice of our servicemen and women. That right, was paid for in blood and has been protected in blood. Don't cuss a farmer with a mouthful of food.

[Luminous Animal]

44. Men and women like yourself did nothing to ensure the that

my daughter would be free to protest imperialist wars. She fought against one. You fought for one.

[Drahthaardogs]

47. And people like you have nothing to ensure ANYONE's freedom.

You do not even have the sense to not cuss a farmer with a mouthful of food. You are the worst kind of creature, one who takes with zeal yet begrudges those who gave them the opportunity.

[MrBig]

76. Just curious

Would your daughter be "free" to go to pro-war rallies and support the military just as she's "free" to protest imperialist wars?

[RZM]

141. I was wondering the same thing

I find it odd to brag about a child having the same views on such a complex subject as their parent, as if the parent's views aren't the primary reason for the child having them.

I don't think I had many political views at 11. And those I did have were probably what I had absorbed from my parents.

[Arugula Latte]

60. When was the last time the U.S. military truly fought for "freedom?"

World War II, maybe? Do you really think Vietnam and Iraq were about "freedom"?

Since then the sad truth is the military has been in service to the corporate military-industrial complex, not freedom. No amount of pro-military propaganda and whitewash will change that.

[Drahthaardogs]

79. Well,

I look at it this way. Our rights, our freedoms, they were won with blood. Not just military blood either. Mother Jones, Ludlow, Patrick Henry, Sojurner Truth, Susan B. Anthony and so many others. Solidiers, miners, proud women, rebellious slaves ...no one has ever given us anything. That which we have, we took and paid for in blood.


Do I think Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, and Iran were about freedom? No, I do not. I think they were about oil, money, and political power. However, I DO believe that if we ever dismantle the military, strip ourselves down, if we did not engage in those wars, the free world as we know it would cease to exist. It is a Mexican stand off of sorts, but in my mind's eye, the day our imperialistic military (which it is) goes away, is the day we must truly be afraid as Americans.

[MrBig]

77. Interesting rhetoric

For some reason I could picture you protesting right next to Fred Phelps at the funerals of soldiers. Different reason, same action.

[Luminous Animal]

88. You are confusing the trees for the forest.

[alphafemale]

32. You let your 11 year old get arrested?

Yeah. That's splendid parenting. Remarkable actually.

[Luminous Animal]

45. It was her choice to protest. It was my job to facilitate her safety.

Which, both her father and I did. Eleven year olds are not stupid and many have strong social justice impulses. I could have exercised authoritarian control and squelched her. Or I could let her express herself under the wing of safety from both her parents.

And yes, the threat of arrest was a possibility but, in San Francisco, we worked with the cops and all minors arrested were taken to Valencia St. Station and processed without charges.

I am proud of my daughter for taking that leap.

[MrBig]

75. Or it could be

That an 11 year old, pre-adolescent child is acting on her innate desire to please her parents. Which, from the sound of your comments, is exactly what she's doing.

[Luminous Animal]

89. Perhaps I should have enrolled her in the military Middle School Cadet Corp...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_School_Cadet_Corps

The Middle School Cadet Corps (MSCC) are cadet programs for middle school students in the United States.

Per 2005, Chicago had 26 Middle School Cadet Corps enlisting more than 850 kids, overseen by the JROTC program. Students from the age of 11 can participate in the program, or younger if they have older siblings in the program.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Cadet_Corps
The California Cadet Corps (CACC) is a paramilitary youth organization in California open for students in the college, high school, middle school and elementary school grades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_School_Cadet_Corps
The Navy League Cadet Corps (also known as the United States Naval League Cadet Corps or "NLCC&quot is a version of the United States Naval Sea Cadet Corps (NSCC) program developed for younger cadets, aged 11 through 14.

[JSnuffy]

90. Seems like a much better evironment...

... for a developing child.

Discipline, structure and accomplishment

vs

An arrest record and the exact same views as mommy (quite the free thinker)

[Luminous Animal]

91. Neither my husband nor I were going to attend the anti-war

Last edited Tue Feb 14, 2012, 01:31 AM - Edit history (1)

protest that she wanted to go to. The intent of the protest was to shut down the financial district for as long as possible. (Which was successful for 3 days). We didn't want her to go because of the heightened chance of arrest.

My daughter belonged to a youth peace group. An organization that she joined on her own volition after attending a Veterans for Peace presentation. Her peers and her Veterans for Peace acquaintances had far more influence on her decision to attend than me or her dad.

As for the arrest record, people had already negotiated with the police and agreed that youths would not be arrested but rather, held at one station and released only to a guardian or parent. It was this provision that gave us (somewhat) peace of mind when we allowed her to join her peers.

[gratuitous]

39. You're correct, but . . .

You're insulting our national religion, and the High Church of Redemptive Violence doesn't brook heresy very kindly.

Not that you need me to tell you that, or (from the looks of things) that you need the assistance.

[FrodosPet]

46. What about useless ones?

Sorry, couldn't resist!

[lunatica]

48. You can be anti-war without throwing that insult around you know

No one sets out to be used, and certainly not when they believe they're truly serving their country. That's why most recruits are at the perfect age where they want very much to count as part of the adult world and to do something truly meaningful for their fellow Americans and their country.

I'm embarrassed for you.

[pinboy3niner]

51. Well said, lunatica

We didn't set out to be used. I was a draftee, but I volunteered for the draft. I fought in Vietnam alongside other draftees, and enlistees.

I think it's fair to say that we were used. I remember a day when in my job, I felt used, abused, exploited, and lied to--and for me, it brought back Vietnam. Something I'd buried for a long time. I resigned from my job, where they were still giving me awards, though I had nothing else to go to.

"No one sets out to be used" is, obviously, right. In my time, men and women served because they thought it was the right thing to do--or because they were drafted, and had no choice.

In any case, calling us 'idiots' is waaaaay out of bounds. Many of us served in a fucked up war in Vietnam. How fucking stupid and ignorant is it to disparage draftees, or even voluntary enlistees who were willing to lay their lives on the line for a higher cause--whether they were right or wrong?

Those who call us 'idiots' never spent night in a foxhole, that's for sure.

[sad sally]

100. Some of us only felt your pain watching the news every night and reading the newspaper

to see if someone else we knew had been killed - there were so many...

[pinboy3niner]

122. Thankyou, sad sally

Yes, there were too many. I knew more than 60 guys who never came back. If I come across as strident in this thread...that's why.

I love the video.

[Leopolds Ghost]

128. That's an excellent point about being used. :-(

[pinboy3niner]

131. I think you're starting to get it :)

We see a lot of assumptions here about the troops and vets. But, before making assumptions and leaping to conclusions, it would be nice if somebody actually listened to the people they're talking about.

[Kali]

68. ...

many are victims of the system too, so many choices no longer available for too many young people

[Odin2005]

50. My cousin is an idiot?

How DARE you?

[DevonRex]

56. And a hell of a lot of DUers, too.

I'm a cold war veteran. Russian linguist in MI. One thing I was NOT was an idiot. Neither were any of the veterans here on DU, no matter what jobs they performed.

[DevonRex]

54. I alerted, too and checked TOS. nt

[Rex]

62. You didn't serve, so I forgive you.

nt

[itsrobert]

142. Shame on you.

[Luminous Animal]

143. Likewise, I'm sure.

[itsrobert]

146. Shame on you

[JHB]

30. ...so, we shouldn't engage in good politics?

There are people who feel different about this than you do. But a parade that no one is demanding you show up for personally is too much?

[Bonobo]

33. "There are people who feel different about this than you do"

Thanks for the news flash.

Is it okay with you if I express an opinion on a discussion board?

[JHB]

37. You expressed yours, and I expressed mine

If you want it to go quietly, throw a gimme to the rah-rah fans and don't let them fester about it like what happened with the Vietnam vets.

You said it yourself, it's good politics. It's basic, 50-state, put-your-face-out-there-supporting-regular-folk-and-spread-your-message goodwill stuff, and it doesn't get much cheaper than a parade. Use it for our side and don't leave it for the Elephant People to pick at their favorite scabs.

[Leopolds Ghost]

110. Would you support a ticker tape parade if Bush were still in office?

No? Case closed.

[pinboy3niner]

115. The overdue parades for Vietnam vets came when Reagan was in office

Of course, he didn't organize them and vets don't give a shit who happens to be be in the oval office. In recent times, NONE of the parades to welcome vets home came from the oval office. They came from the public--the American people.

No matter how pols may try to spin it, the parades don't celebrate war, or a particular U.S. foreign policy. Parades welcome home the troops and acknowledge the service of citizens who sacrificed and put their lives on hold--and often on the line--to serve their country.

[Leopolds Ghost]

116. I think Vietnam vets deserved a parade. But that was when we had a universal draft...

The majority of combat vets in Iraq and Afghan support the war.

The non-combat vets may feel differently but they didn't specifically join up to fight and the military has been good of late at putting people who actually sign up for combat duty on the front lines -- although they didn't anticipate personnel shortages and rear-echelon campaigns resulting in reservists getting blown up by roadside bombs.

In the wake of the triumphal Gulf War II parade of 1991, I don't know how else it could be spun.

[JHB]

133. As "welcome home", of course.

People who care about these kinds of parades will remember the snub. No one else will care.

[JHB]

120. Case irrelevant. Don't get stingy with the small stuff. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. You mean like Nam? How did walking away from vets work for us

Here is a stat for you... 18 veterans commit suicide a day. THere are now more vets who have committed suicide from THAT war than names on the wall.

If you want, or mostly certain people want to challenge that stat, take it with Congressman Filner and the VA.

Now I need to transcribe a speech...

Speaking of Filner.

(For the record he also spoke of how we need to also help Nam, but as he cynically put it, if we cannot even take care of our own...)

[pinboy3niner]

86. Suicide kind of hits a nerve...

I didn't learn until many years later that my first radioman in Vietnam killed himself shortly after he got back.

Later, my best friend, who'd served in the Marines in Vietnam, put a bullet in his head one Christmas day.

Lou Puller was more of an acquaintance than a friend. We'd see each other at vet events in D.C., and he wrote me a nice inscription in his book. They seated us next to each other onstage at one of the ceremonies at the Wall. He was a 'Fortunate Son' who faced many challenges. Still, it was a shock when Chesty Puller's son checked out...

Yes, the parades are important, and they have nothing to do with celebrating war.

Thanks for mentioning Filner's speech, Nadin. I think I may post it here...

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. It took a few hours to transcribe

and now working on the story to go with it.

Which means looking at notes... and for notes. And yes, some will have to be the MP3 file, things you miss while taking photos.

[Leopolds Ghost]

117. I don't know how this issue can be solved... It's important to honor the vets

But even in the celebrations after the Gulf War, look what guys like Anthony Swofford wrote about the actual outcome for those vets... or to take another example that was made into a movie, the experiences of the Iwo Jima "flag raisers" after they came home to raise money for the troops... Any celebration gets twisted into a triumphal parade for politicians to celebrate winning the war, which is after all where military parades originated. This would be fine and dandy if people felt it was a "just war" -- ah who am I kidding, half the country never stopped supporting the war in Iraq.

[pinboy3niner]

126. No matter how anyone 'twists' it, it's for the troops and the vets

Let the pols on all sides spin it as they may. To the vets, it means something.

[dmr]

2. There is truth in what you say, but the money saved by not having a parade

would never be used for anything as worthwhile as for our vets. That's just how it is, sadly.

Sometimes you need to do something grand to lift downed spirits.

I don't see why we can't have two parades.

Because there is so much healing to do, we need acknowledge our vets as soon as possible.

[DearAbby]

3. The Veterans themselves are asking for this

Some outward sign. Is it too much to ask for? It's just a parade, we had one just a couple days ago. We can do all the things you said, Assimilate them back into their old jobs or find good jobs for them. They need to be healed as needed both physically and mentally. Healing can begin with a Parade, what is the harm?


When those fighting in Afghanistan return home, we can do it all over again. Again, what is the harm?

[Leopolds Ghost]

107. At least in Afghanistan we had a reason for being there. Iraq is an illegal war.

That reason proved to be based on misinformation about the whereabouts of our enemy for the most part, but it was based on some sort of sound foreign policy, since the enemy was actually there.

Any parade will not be about honoring Vets for their service in Iraq or salving anyone's wounded conscience, it'll be about celebrating the end of the war and thanking our vets for "winning" it.

As for hating on vets, I think it's sad people can't see any middle ground between hating on people who are brought up to believe and told by all of their society (including Dems) that it's a productive and honorable living to go out and kill foreigners for the sake of vague foreign policy objectives (although really most combat soldiers do it initially for the thrill of combat and later for group solidarity against a deadly enemy, i.e. the documented psychological phenomenon of combat altruism) vs. celebrating illegal wars in order to reassure vets that if we enter into another illegal war we'll still support the vets when they come home (which we patently do not.)

[appleannie1]

4. Vets of the war are simply asking for recognition. They earned it. So why not give it to them?

[Luminous Animal]

25. Recognition for destroying a country making it safe

for western oil contracts?

Fuck that.

[stevenleser]

72. Thankfully, your opinion on this issue will not win out.

[Leopolds Ghost]

109. Not saying I agree necessarily, but what do you view as acceptable celebration of the Iraq war?

That's what a ticker tape parade is -- a victory celebration, not a recognition of service in a horrid conflict.

That's why countries that actually LOSE wars don't throw ticker tape parades.

Most Americans seem to have forgotten this, because they grew up in a country that "never loses". So for us it's all about health issues -- psychological damage to individual soldiers -- and celebration for the majority of soldiers and civilians who do not consider themselves to have suffered any such damage.

[Union Scribe]

5. Why not both?

I agree that it won't do to throw a parade then leave the vets hanging without programs for them. But I don't think it's an either/or situation.

[Motown_Johnny]

6. I think that our vets have enough emotional issues without

confusing them by throwing them a welcome home parade three or four months before sending them back into a war zone.


I almost always agree with Rachel, but not this time.

[Leopolds Ghost]

118. Denbot, I think Motown was referring to the ongoing Mideast War which we apparently won, so I hear.

And was being facetious about the rest.

[YOHABLO]

9. No Parades Please

This was not a Victory for the U.S. .. we didn't win anything. We left a country in shambles and men, women and children homeless, maimed or dead. The men and women service members returning home should be given education, health care and a job.

[denbot]

11. We are not talking about a victory parade, just a veterans parade.

Read pinboy3niner's post, up stream.

[Luminous Animal]

24. I'd attend that "parade" if the veterans were required to carry signs

of the names of the hundreds of thousands of the people we killed in Iraq.

[metalbot]

40. The terms of service on this site prevent me from responding as I'd like to...nt

[Arkana]

58. Wow.

I think my grandfather and father (WWII and Vietnam respectively) would like to have a word with you on what you consider "service".

[stevenleser]

73. Yes, the term 'clueless' comes to mind for that poster. nt

[Leopolds Ghost]

129. Hmm.

How about...

The people at home (including your neighbors) were responsible, btw. Make them wear signs.

[Luminous Animal]

137. That, too. We are all responsible.

[BlueCaliDem]

15. I agree. Parades are ridiculous and serve no purpose

other than to make US, who haven't served, feel good about ourselves.

Give our brave men and women JOBS. High-paying jobs, free, full and comprehensive health, dental, vision, and medicine care. They don't need a friggin parade to make the rest of us feel better for their service so we can then go off to our own lives, feel better about ourselves, and forget the sacrifice they made on our behalf.

My sister served two tours in Iraq. She's seen a LOT of painful stuff, lost friends in IED explosions right in front of her, and now she's back, she can't find a decent job and she's struggling.

If we want to honor our brave men and women who served our country, we should honor them with free education, free and comprehensive health care, and a high-paying job. THAT would be honoring our service men and women.

[Scuba]

26. The parade I'd like to see has Bush, Cheney, Rodriquez, Rummy, etc perp-walking....

... I'm in total agreement with you post. The veterans neither need, nor (for the most part) want a parade. They want jobs, healthcare and a supportive society.



The one and only way we can really support our troops is to NOT send them into harm's way unless it's critical to our nation's defense and all other alternatives have been exhausted.


Parades are for politicians.

[mmonk]

31. I don't like the idea of one either.

Rather they work out a jobs program and projects for vets. I'd rather not be reminded of the vacuous leadership that lied us into that conflict.

[pa28]

41. Returning vets should be recognized.

It's not about celebrating the war but celebrating the fact they are back home.

A parade would also serve as a national reminder that they need our support now. Too often soldiers get sent off to flag waving and cheerleading but when it's time to come home they are treated as damaged goods.

Vets need jobs and confidence in their earned benefits and maybe spending a morning honoring them with a parade would help ensure they get the treatment they deserve.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

42. Is this being planned by the Obama Administration

or is this just fanciful thinking on the part of Republican right-wingers seeking to gin up another "controversy" to attack Obama over?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

43. Please don't talk about vets as if they're quivering invalids

Even those with admitted problems prefer to find their strengths rather than dwell on their setbacks.

And "waste of time" or not it's still a good idea.

[redqueen]

57. +1

[lunatica]

52. I see a welcoming parade as a matter of official public acknowledgement

that we know there's been an ongoing war for a decade. As an acknowledgment that Americans do remember the troops and acknowledge their sacrifice and that we can make the distinction between those making wars for profit and fun and those who they send to do horrendous acts ensuring that profit and fun for the few.

I'm as anti-war as they come, but you'll never find me disparaging the troops, because no one consciously puts their life on the line for what they think is a Big Lie.

[Arugula Latte]

61. If people would stop signing up to the military

they wouldn't have enough corporate cannon fodder to feed their war profit machine.

[Kali]

70. just stop signing up - if only it were so simple

I wish you could experience life in a depressed rural area and the pressure so many young people are under. It isn't some silly decision to just run off and join up. There aren't many other options. no jobs, no money for more education, this constant presence in the schools of recruiters - the way they operate puts religious missionaries to shame...they buddy up and give out swag and do the whole gang indoctrination thing.

When you are looking at no future and some friendly professional comes and promises you money, education, a job and inclusion in a club at age 17-18 signing up has NOTHING to do with any awareness of cannon fodder or the 1%.

[Leopolds Ghost]

106. The vast majority of combat vets are solidly behind the war and joined combat batallions to fight.

Just pointing that out.

I don't know what cherokee progressive is upset about. The majority of people on GD, it seems, support a ticker tape parade to celebrate the end of the Iraq war -- because Obama "won it". If a Republican were in office they'd be saying the opposite. That tells me this is political and therefore false.

Note that no one outside a few liberal blogs will claim or even think that such a parade would be about salving the wounded morale of anyone with PTSD.

[pinboy3niner]

121. You are very wrong about the politics in GD

Our fellow and sister members here who support parades for the troops and vets during Obama's administration would take EXACTLY the same position even under a Republican administration.

And don't tell me about PTSD. I've lived with it every single fucking day since Vietnam. I know how cathartic those parades can be for vets. And how they can raise veterans issues to national attention.

[Leopolds Ghost]

127. I'm not trying to minimize the issue. I know how horrible it can be for soldiers. But most ppl dont

Many people will take it as a rah rah rah occasion or exploit it for political gain, even some people here basically saying "Obama's the president, so this will be good for us". Outside of a liberal blog like this one, very, very few people will even mention the issue of a parade being cathartic for soldiers with ptsd. They'll assume it's a chance for celebration, shooting off fireworks etc. But I do understand what you are saying. Some sort of formal ceremony is necessary to serve as recognition of their service, in order to heal the damage. For many VN vets that was the Wall and the ceremonies surrounding it.

[librechik]

64. I certainly respect our vets and their sacrifices and wish them all the best. My dad was a marine

My uncle Bill was at Normandy Beach. I have other relatives currently in the military, I'm very proud of their combat and peacetime service.

However, I think it would be wrong to celebrate a war crime. That's why there were never any parades for Viet Nam. I believe without question that Iraq was a war crime, an unprovoked invasion of a country that was not a threat to us. I would be ashamed of the US if we celebrated that war rather than hanging our heads in shame about our crime.

I don't blame the vets for the fact that Iraq was a criminal war. I do blame others, and don't want to give THEM the satisfaction of legitimizing the invasion. However much we want to welcome our soldiers home, a parade would reaffirm THOSE CRIMINAL'S victory over democracy and humanity.

[Rex]

78. If a parade will bolster moral, then I am all for it.

nt

[Terra Alta]

82. If we have parades for winning sports teams

then we should have one for returning Iraq Vets -- who are the true heroes, not a bunch of guys who make millions throwing a ball around. I'm a huge NFL fan, but those guys are NOT heroes -- our veterans are the true heroes, and we should honor them.

[Bezukhov]

83. I hated parades when I was in. Not to mention the crappy music that goes with them.

But, the fainting and throwing up part was amusing.

[cherokeeprogressive]

84. I have to disagree with the notion of a parade being a waste of time.

You want them assimilated back into their old jobs and lives? You want them healed?

How about understanding that walking before a grateful nation and being shown some thanks for putting their lives on the line just might, just might be a first step in ALL OF THAT?

A parade to YOU lasts only one day. To our VETERANS it just might last a lifetime and serve to wash away some of the hatred that idiotic people like one who posted on this thread so obviously feel for ANYONE who chose to serve their country.

A lot of PTSD is rooted in being made to feel ashamed and being told you not only wasted your time and effort, but are a bad person for having done so.

[Honeycombe8]

93. I agree. Especially since the Iraq War was controversial, all the more need for a parade...

to show them that the country is behind THEM and supports and values THEM, regardless of what they think about the war.

Although I was young and didn't notice these things at the time, I've read that returning Vietnam Vets were debilitated mentally upon returning home...no parades, anti-war activists hated them, the war had been controversial so no one wanted to acknowledge them, etc.

I would hate to see that happen again. They should feel valued and appreciated. A parade is a great idea. Also, to celebrate.

[Leopolds Ghost]

105. To celebrate what? Is it not possible to show appreciation for returning vets without celebrating

the Iraq war??!

[Honeycombe8]

139. To celebrate the end of the war. If we can have parades for football teams & St. Patty, we

sure should have one for our vets at the conclusion of a decade-long war.

[JSnuffy]

85. I don't need a parade...

... I simply want the ability to do my work without being undercut with petty bullshit.

I want the benefits that I earned for myself and my family.

I believe these benefits should be the absolute last thing on the cutting block when there is so much waste out there, especially towards those who have never given anything and only taken.

That's it really. A square deal.. nothing big...

[Honeycombe8]

140. So you don't need it. Don't watch. But honoring service & end of war is a good thing...

that many would be pleased about. In additiona to not cutting their benefits.

If we can have parades for football teams, St. Patty's Day, and Thanksgiving, we sure should have one for our returning vets.

[markpkessinger]

92. As a matter of pure politics . . .

. . . Not having a parade is to hand a campaign issue to the GOP.

[LAGC]

114. No, celebrating the Iraq War would hand a campaign issue to the GOP.

There was nothing honorable about that war.

[Throd]

94. Sometimes DU just makes me sad. Sad sad sad.

We are actually debating whether showing appreciation of returning veterans is good or bad?

[cherokeeprogressive]

95. With one poster on this thread showing out and out hatred for said Veterans.

I feel the same way... sad.

[Leopolds Ghost]

104. I support showing appreciation for the vets. A ticker tape parade to celebrate "victory" in Iraq?

Bush's illegal and immoral war? Are we really even discussing this?

[Evergreen Emerald]

96. The denial is political. Obama cannot be seen as winning at...anything

It does not need to be the either-or-proposition you present. It can be both. Indeed, a celebration of the end of the war will bring the issues to the forefront.

And, of course it will highlight a win by Obama. And that is why it will not happen without a fight.

Everything everything everything is about gaining back the power they lost when they destroyed our economy.

[Leopolds Ghost]

103. The war in Iraq was illegal and immoral... for Rachel Maddow to call for a ticker tape parade

because "Obama won it" is crazy. Might as well say Nixon won Vietnam.

[Leopolds Ghost]

111. That said, I would support something to honor the wounded vets.

Something that would not be twisted into a triumphal celebration.

[pinboy3niner]

124. It has NOTHING to do with Obama...

And that is most definitely NOT what Rachel said. The video is up now--you may want to look at it to see what Rachel ACTUALLY said.

[Leopolds Ghost]

125. I'm referring to what the person I replied to and a couple other folks said about good politics.

Sorry if that was not clear.

[Evergreen Emerald]

138. You misunderstand.

My point is not that he won a war. My point is that Obama promised to end the war and he did. It will be seen as the troops coming home after completion of the job. And that he kept his campaign promise.

A celebration of the end of war under his watch would help Obama. Even if it was not meant politically. And that cannot happen, it appears that anything that could possibly be considered as positive under his watch is prohibited from happening. From appointments to various government positions, tax reductions for middle class, a parade for the troops.

The opposition to the parade makes no sense..unless it is simply more of the same.

[ellisonz]

132. A parade has nothing to do with the politics of the war. It has to do with those...

...whom we have lost and those who have suffered much. That is all it is about to the men and women whom the parade is for and that is what really matters. I don't see why we can't have a parade and an America that is as good as its promise too. We ought to do what is right, and not just what is convenient. It would be all too easy to just forget what has happened, and yes, the parade is for the country as a whole, it is restorative and it hurts no one at all.

[Evergreen Emerald]

136. The lack of a parade, however does have to do with politics

Why not have a parade celebrating the return of the soldiers? Because the celebration would occur under Obama's watch. He brought them home. He kept his campaign promise.

That is why it is not occurring...anything...anything that could be considered positive for obama will not be allowed.