this country in its present form is beyond redemption

[cali]

Last edited Sat May 18, 2013, 04:52 PM - Edit history (1)

we're endlessly at war and we do terrible things in the name of national security. We have a bloated secretive Defense and National Security Network that is hand in glove with the defense industry. In short, we do more harm than good on the world stage and we damage ourselves in the process. Our wars are driven, to a significant degree, by the relationship between government and industry.

The gap between the rich and everyone else is growing at an exponential rate.

Corporations own the government. No, they don't own each individual elected or appointed official but they own enough of them, or like Penny Pritzker, they are them.

Electing democrats rather than republicans may stave off some horrors, but it makes little difference when it comes to corporate power, who is in the White House or who is in Congress. Maybe it's become some weird form of institutional behavior- the institutions are so mired in the corpocracy that individuals have little chance of effecting real change.

I used to scoff at people who claimed that we're living under fascism. If not there yet, we're well on our way.

[MineralMan]

1. There is no hope. Everything is chaos.

The center cannot hold. Does that about cover it?

Time for a break and a look around for people doing marvelous things, I think. There are plenty of such examples to study. Nihilism leads nowhere and benefits nobody. It especially doesn't benefit the nihilist.

This is not the end, Cali. It's never the end. Find some good.

[michigandem58]

110. Yep - Good thing the folks in Flint and Selma weren't quitters

Sorry some find it so easy to roll over.

[AverageJoe90]

150. Very true, very true. n/t

[AnnetteJacobs]

2. If there's no hope, then why are you here?

[randome]

13. "Most people care about sports and TV..."

Or their children and actually living their lives away from news and discussion forums.

My life has not been affected one iota by anything that has occurred since 9/11. (Other than brief delays while flying.)

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[randome]

20. That's 'life', not 'wife'. Do you have a smudge on your screen? LOL!

I suppose it depends on the type of people you surround yourself with. I have no interest in sports, either. Not a bit. And I consider men who chatter about it at work to be unimaginative bores, too.

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[MineralMan]

39. Such folks are unlikely to participate in DU, though.

Truly.

[totodeinhere]

40. I am here to commiserate with other like minded people who also realize that there is no hope. n/t

[Texasgal]

3. Well...

Aren't you a little ray of sunshine!

[randome]

15. Maybe she needs to view REAL rays of sunshine more often! We all could stand to do that!

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[Lucky Luciano]

47. I've been there! I loved those carefree travel days I used to have!

Harder with a wife and baby to just bounce around the world in places like that.

[marions ghost]

100. what's that green sludge?

---

[randome]

114. Hopefully NOT something man-made!

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[marions ghost]

134. man made runoff + nature = excess algae

agricultural and /or sewage

[awoke_in_2003]

123. Algae...

Or in other words fish food.

[patrice]

4. Agreed in all except that that is the only thing that is happening. And I also always want to add a

Footnote*

*all of the above GIVEN in the context of general dereliction of civic responsibility to KNOW what you're votes mean, precisely in terms of issues that affect your life and those of your community and many people aren't brave enough to speak out as individuals and assume that numbers of whatever necessarily = correct or valid cognizance . . .

when it doesn't, because many people can be wrong.

Regarding generations of dereliction in civic responsibilities: Even "the Great Generation" for all of their touted "patriotism" had a strong tendency NOT TO ASK QUESTIONS and to assume the wrong shit about people they don't know, like how they should live their lives to prove to "the Great Generation" that the GG were great, make the same sacrifices for the SAME "reasons", to the same false gods, I'd say, echos of echos of their own doubts about their own lives, and pettiness and vengeance and bitterness, so . . .

We have the government that is cognate of who we are and look at us to see why things are as they are. The people have not been holding up their part in civic chores and taking a personal verbal stand about SOLUTIONS and responsibility, everyone's!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

5. "America is the first country to have gone from barbarism to decadence without the usual intervening

"America is the first country to have gone from barbarism to decadence without the usual intervening period of civilization."  Oscar Wilde

[MineralMan]

41. Written at a time distant from today.

Oscar Wilde was quite the curmudgeon, generally, but his commentary was not about modern-day America.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

44. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if he would feel the same way today.

Considering some of the things mentioned in the OP.

[MineralMan]

53. But we can't know. He's been dead a long time.

Quotations about America written that long ago are pretty useless, really. I recently read Dickens' Travels in America on my Kindle. It was very interesting to see the country, as it was in the mid 19th Century, through the eyes of a British novelist. I can't say that it said much about 21st Century America, though.

British wits have always had something unpleasant to say about this country, it seems. As a student of 19th Century non-fiction, I've read many accounts from British authors about their view of this country. Few of them were complimentary.

I'm little interested in looking at outdated viewpoints when considering this country as it is today. It's a good historical perspective, but that's all. What Oscar Wilde thought of us in his day is interesting, but not useful.

www.gutenberg.org has a lot of old writings about this country, from many perspectives. They're all free to read on any device you may have. It's worth a look.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

62. I majored in history and it's still my main interest.

I have a Nook full of history books which is seldom idle now that I'm retired.

"If you want to become a cynic, major in history." One of my first history profs said that and it proved to be true for me. Looking back one comes to realize that nothing much changes in the never ending struggle between the powerful and the downtrodden. The bosses end up taking their lumps for awhile then are replaced by new bosses with much the same agenda of self aggrandizement until the people, once again, get fed up and fight back.

As they say, "wash, rinse, repeat..".

[Democracyinkind]

77. Agree about the cynic part.

If it is anything at all, it is sobering. Yet I'd never trade.

[zeemike]

70. But the irony is that it could be.

And history if full of those ironies...
But perhaps he perceived things in us even then that have not changed in all that time.

[whathehell]

76. Thank you,

Oscar Wilde had many strong points; a lack of bias wasn't one of them.

[Bluenorthwest]

94. What a daft comment. His commentary was not about modern day America.

Stating the obvious taken to a new low. Just nonsense.

[awoke_in_2003]

124. Europe has culture, for sure...

but it makes no difference- the plutocrats ate wining there, too. The working class is getting beat everywhere and only one thing will stop it- fighting back, and not with words.

[judgegblue]

6. Grid lock in congress due to gerrymandering and misinformation from the MSM

Does make me worry that the crazies cannot be defeated. How can Dems ever get control of Congress with the current gerrymandered districts. The media is too lazy and willing to repeat false info aimed at the Prez. The Rethugs continue to have the solitary goal of making Obama look bad, and have no desire to do anything that would move this country forward.

[davidn3600]

84. That really doesn't matter, the corporations already own many Democrats

They will simply buy more by strategically funding certain campaigns.

It's impossible to run for congress without significant financial backing. So unless you are rich already or you are some all-star fundraiser....you have to rely on those corporations in order to win.

The game is already rigged.

[patrice]

7. "in its present form" nt

[patrice]

8. Call Dr. Who!

[randome]

10. Who?

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[rbrnmw]

14. +1

[fascisthunter]

25. are you upperclass?

[patrice]

36. All things are not political. I like good art direction & I stay home a lot, though not

exclusively.

Also good story telling and dialogue.

..........................

What happen? Did I fail some inside clique test?

[Democracyinkind]

52. yes. you can repeat it here...

hu was the president of china?

[DFW]

109. As we used to sing in kindergaten.....

In Beijing's Forbidden City
In the land that gave us Mao
Lived a resident who was president
And his name was Hu Jintao

(with apologies to "Clementine"

[patrice]

116. I thought he was on first base. nt

Last edited Sun May 19, 2013, 02:03 PM - Edit history (1)

[rhett o rick]

119. Who is on first base. nm

[fascisthunter]

106. nailed

thanks

[kentuck]

11. I think it's an excellent question...

but knowledge can be depressing if we permit it?

[Yo_Mama]

12. Nothing about the country's current form must persist past the next election

These things are evils, but they are evils because the electorate has not yet demanded their rejection.

Look around for what works as well as looking around for what doesn't work. Then tell people about what's working.

I don't really think the electorate is apathetic any more, but I think it is confused.

[judgegblue]

17. Confused by lies and misinformation spread by the Rethugs through their propaganda machine,

otherwise known as the MSM. The average person is inundated with news featuring right wingers making false accusations and creating a frenzy for scandal.

[totodeinhere]

42. That's a good ideal but unfortunately I don't think that any one election

will be enough to solve the problem. We are in too much of a hole.

[quakerboy]

67. Havnt they?

The democratic presidential candidate beat the R by approx 5,000,000 votes
The Democratic Congressional candidates beat the R's by approx 550,000 votes
The democratic Senate candidates beat the R's by approx 13,000,000 votes.

Tell me again how the electorate didn't want a change?

[Triana]

18. We are doing terrible things in the name of money & profit too

Money is the only God worshipped. All else is subjugated for it, including life itself. We are a grossly immoral society.

[Octafish]

19. 'Money trumps peace.' - George W Bush, Feb. 14, 2007

Only time he ever told the truth, in my memory.

[airplaneman]

30. I had the opportunity once to talk to a biologist who made the following statement:

Because we pursue what is needed to make a profit instead of what is needed to guarantee our survival we have in essence guaranteed our extinction.
-Airplane

[limpyhobbler]

61. This quote is absolutley brilliant.

Hopefully wrong, but definitely brilliant.

[riderinthestorm]

98. Can I use this airplaneman? I need a new sig line and this is brilliant! Full credit to you... nt

[airplaneman]

103. You are welcome to use this quote - no credits needed. n/t.

[Triana]

99. He nailed it! n/t

[tex-wyo-dem]

105. I'll echo others here...

The biologist you spoke with nailed it!

Unless a significant majority of humans become more elightened and turn away from greed and profit and see the truth of what's going on around them, I don't hold much hope for our mid- to long-term survival.

[Little Star]

117. Bingo

[Octafish]

21. We still have a shot at keeping the whole kittenkaboodle going.

It's called Democracy. Honest politicians and political appointees are where it starts. Lookit all them honest AGs from across the country who support Gov. Don Siegelman.

As we're outspent on the airwaves, and our elected representatives are so hesitant in calling a lie a lie and a crime a crime, it seems like the only thing we have to unite the nation is the Truth.

People of all stripes know how the game is played. What they need is to know who is who and the what, how, where, when and for how much.

This launches many immediately to work. Some work to put an end to it. Others work to shut down its discussion.

If enough know, they are shamed for the rest of their lives. And, they are out of office.

[Doctor_J]

118. We don't live in a Democracy any more

that's the whole point of the OP. As was pointed out up above, the Dems crushed the Repukes in the recent elections, yet are able/willing to do nothing to rescue the country from the fascists. How can this still be called democracy?

[Octafish]

137. You are correct. We vote them out and the new crew does the same as the old.

The model seems to be a fusion of fascism and plutocracy. Wars for profit that benefit the few. Tax policies that enrich the few. Crony capitalism that privatizes the rewards and socializes the bailouts. War criminals walk free while a good governor languishes in prison. These are gangster times.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022152807

I have done my utmost to spread the word on the situation, on DU and in real life. Until we run out of options, I will continue looking for a solution within the constraints of the system.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022673617

Perhaps I can shame enough of the so and sos into action. If not, maybe I can wake up enough policemen to do the right thing. If not, I'll think up something else. I do know I won't give up and I won't change my mind.

[octoberlib]

22. My old political science professor from college

said what the US is experiencing now is polarized pluralism. He said it's extremely dangerous to democracy . It's the same thing the Weimar Republic suffered from before the Nazis took over. The Republicans know exactly what they're doing with all their obstructionism. The no taxation, no regulation Republican and Libertarian parties aren't compatible with democracy. When people pay taxes they're more likely to hold their government accountable. People who don't hold their public servants accountable are more likely to end up with authoritarian or totalitarian regimes.


We need complete campaign finance reform to get the money out of politics. As Lawrence Lessig said , the analytics on this are easy but the politics are really hard.

[MannyGoldstein]

33. I think it's also what happened in the US before FDR

The American people have a choice.

[octoberlib]

37. Yes they do. nt

[Democracyinkind]

55. It would take an FDR to stave it off.

That's what makes me pessimistic. There's not much traitors to their classes left.

My grandfather had this rant about politics where he kept insisting that "the next american president will either be a new FDR or a new Hitler". Of course, this never came true, but that's exactly what I thought on Nov 4 2008. But again nothing - the repubs believe they got a new Hitler while I can't bring myself to believe that we got a new FDR.

[MannyGoldstein]

58. Wait? Haven't you seen this?

[Democracyinkind]

63. Ha. Don't get me started....

I just saw Lincoln - the movie, not his ghost - and was contemplating that other dreadful myth of Obama as the new Lincoln.

I know this makes me a hater in the grand scheme of things (aka the internet) but I feel like I've been Clintoned, again. And my grandfather's crazy rantings will be proven true sooner or later.

OMG - I actually spoke my mind on this subject. Must be a first. Thanks for the reply, Manny.

[MannyGoldstein]

66. I bring out the worst in people

Hey, we all have a talent... that's mine.

I've been intimately following politics for decades. In 1992 I had a position in Paul Tsongas' national campaign. It plunged me into politics and people. I soon realized there was no hope: The People at that time simply weren't ready for reality and honesty. They were ready for Clinton and the other neoliberal swine. Nice smiles while they grab your wallet and sell your children.

Since then, I've bided my time because The People continued to be too silly to have any hope of moving forward.

Only now do I think The People are in enough pain to start making good choices again. So I'm actually optimistic that we can stanch the bleeding and turn this thing around. But it will require leadership and energy, because we have some powerful foes.

[Mnemosyne]

95. I am not so sure people are in enough pain yet to do much, but it's coming down the pike fast.

I hope for the day when much of the country arises, but fear how far we will have to fall before it happens.

Hopefully sooner rather than later.

[AndyTiedye]

142. It Doesn't Work That Way

The people that you are expecting to "rise up" are too beat down and overwhelmed to do so.

You are mistaking despair for apathy.

[FirstLight]

144. wow

ain't THAT the truth?...I would like to think we can build something better, but when I personally don't have enough strength to do more that pedal through my OWN life, I realize nobody has the stamina or energy to do the things that need to be done. All this talk of "we are the ones we have been waiting for' is bullshit when we are collectively so enmeshed in survival mode.

kind of a depressing thought for a monday morning...but I'll continue to trudge through my life and keep trying to better my own situation as best I can. Isn't that what we all are doing? (meanwhile the rich, corporate and powerful continue to eat all the resources and plunge us into worse and worse situations...)

[zeemike]

72. "The Republicans know exactly what they're doing"

And if we don't assume that, then we will keep empowering them.

[WillyT]

24. K & R !!!

[DonCoquixote]

26. in its present form

All countries go through this phase, where the robber barons and idle rich try to sabotage things. We can and will win, but we need to keep going. The only thing that has allowed the roight to dominate is that they have one virtue, persistences, whereas that is something we on the left could use more of.

To quote Joe Hill, "do not mourn, organize."

[AndyTiedye]

147. The Right Has a Lock on the Media, the Churches, the Courts, Most State Governments, and the House

The only thing that has allowed the roight to dominate is that they have one virtue, persistences, whereas that is something we on the left could use more of.

We have persistence, what we don't have is:

The Media (They Own It All)
The Churches (Most of them Anyway)
The Courts (Lifetime Appointments)
Most State Governments (Gerrymandered)
The House of Representatives (ditto)

[Buns_of_Fire]

27. I've found that a daily swing by the "Good News" group helps a little...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1267

Sometimes, like Opus, we just need a Dandelion Break before we gird our loins (whatever that means), pick up the sword, and head out to get our teeth bloody again.

[narnian60]

56. Just subscribed...

didn't know it existed.

[FirstLight]

145. awesome thoughts

Opus!

[timdog44]

28. Hey cali --

I think I know where you are at. Not being flip - what I do when I feel this way, I grab my glass of wine and take a walk in the yard and quit reading DU for a while. The individual is still the most important and powerful entity on earth. We will prevail. I can take time and I rue the fact that maybe it won't happen in the time I have left. But we need to fight the good fight for those who come after us. Hang in there. I know we will end up as the righteous.

[HiPointDem]

49. "The individual is still the most important and powerful entity" = no, that is the mythology handed

down by the rulers to systematically dismember the power of the ruled.

[timdog44]

54. I certainly

hope you are wrong on that.

[Democracyinkind]

65. The people are, though. Or they could be.

Could they? Still? Ever?

You know better than anyone else that power, wealth and privilige derive from an individuals labor. The people therefore truly have the power, not individuals, but the people. That's what's truly scary about the fact that currently, the people aren't in power.

Now I no longer know where I'm going with this. Consider it an amendment to what you wrote and not a criticism.

[bvar22]

29. Gee, Cali. All we have to do is elect more Democrats!

They're the Good Guys.
They would NEVER do anything that hurts the Working Class.
It was ALL Joe Lieberman's fault!




Corporate Profits Hit Record High While Worker Wages Hit Record Low
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/12/03/1270541/corporate-profits-wages-record/?mobile=nc

"Its a BIG CLUB, and YOU ain't in it!"


DURec!


You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their promises or excuses.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]

[Poll_Blind]

31. That's about the long and short of it. The great cull isn't coming, it's happening slowly right now

And there will be no Temple Grandin to obsess about whether our slaughter chute is humane enough or not. But at least there's DU.

PB

[MannyGoldstein]

32. So let's do something.

I'm game. We probably have hundreds of folks on DU who are game.

And I think the American people are game. For 20+ years, I thought they weren't, but now they are.

As long as we still have a relatively fair vote, which we do (or else Republicans wouldn't be working to undermine it), we can get this done,

We need a plan, and we need to stop following false prophets.

Any thoughts?

[totodeinhere]

50. The Democrats have won four of the last six presidential elections but yet things

continue to get worse. Are you sure that elections will do it? I was full of hope and optimism when Barack Obama was elected. But now after four and 1/2 years of him in office I am disillusioned and cynical. If Senator Warren were elected in 2016 would that make me optimistic again? No it wouldn't because I have been down that road before. (But yes of course given the alternative I would vote for her anyway.)

[MannyGoldstein]

57. I was an Obama fan too in 2008, but a cautious one

The other leading contenders, Edwards and Clinton, were both known to be bad. Obama talked the right talk, but had never actually gotten stuff don, so there was no track record. But at least Obama had the possibility of being good. We can each decide for ourselves how that turned out.

Warren, on the other hand, is actually walking the walk. She gets up in people's faces, people who Obama genuflects to, like Geithner and the bankers. Did you ever see Obama do anything like these before becoming president? Or after?

Warren's written books about how the Middle Class is getting @#$%ed. Obama wrote books about himself.

So while we don't *know* how a Warren Presidency would work out, I believe there are some good signs.

[cali]

71. honestly? I think we're already well on the way to being thoroughly digested in the belly of the

beast, so to speak.

the only thing I can think of us is to act locally.

And no, I don't think the American people are game. I think they'll support the next nasty stupid war and they'll keep electing the worst kind of people to Congress. there's virtually no way to have a fair vote. Money has clogged the arteries of the electoral system like so much plaque.

[MannyGoldstein]

75. Have you read much about America in the 1920s and early 1930s?

Things were pretty awful then, too.

But they got better.

We can do that, too.

[Bonhomme Richard]

34. The pendulum is swinging and very near its apex.

I can't fathom the repercussions when it gets there.
What the "elite" don't get is that there is a limit to what people will take and we are very near that apex.

[alterfurz]

101. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to...

...and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. -- Frederick Douglass

Beyond a certain point there is no return. This point has to be reached. -- Kafka

Every day the elite do ever more to help the peasants find out their Douglass limit, and reach that Kafkaesque point.

Almost there now.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

112. What will they submit to? I have no hope for those who will allow their gonads to be groped, and

participate in security theater, just in order to fly.

[AndyTiedye]

148. There is a Problem With the Pendulum

[Zoeisright]

35. Wrong.

The problem is the dumbing down of the American public, helped along by the lying shits at Faux Noise, Reagan gutting the Fairness Act and plunging us into debt, and idiots who think they're experts because they can type out a response on the internet.

And once again, if you think there is no difference between Democrats and Republicans, YOU are the problem.

[cali]

74. Of course I didn't say that there was no difference between republicans and dems.

I've long made the case here that there is indeed a difference- important differences, but it has NOT made a significant difference insofar as corporate encroachment on the gov't goes, who is in the WH. Corporate power over government has grown under dems and republicans alike.

YOU are the one that's wrong if you think that the media exists in limbo. It's part of the corpocracy.

You didn't manage to respond cogently to my post beyond waaah it's the media and mean people on the internet.

[judgegblue]

104. Unfortunately many, if not most, people have been affected by the MSM's moral equivalency

approach to events. Thus, intelligent people are often heard to say that both parties engage in bad conduct, and thus there is no difference between Dems and Rethugs. They ignore the core beliefs and agenda of the right wingers, even though their policies and methods are totally contrary to the best interests of the great majority of Americans.

[olddots]

38. I've been marching for 53 years

can't say it's helped but it's good exercise

[MineralMan]

43. Almost the same for me. You're maybe a little

longer in the tooth than I, but I've found that activism helps preserve youth, at least in the mind.

[totodeinhere]

45. At least you're getting your physical exercise. Me I'm so frustrated and cynical about the whole

thing that these days I just walk my dog.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

46. Feeling blue? Watch Bono on Charlie Rose from the other night.

[HiPointDem]

51. bono, the tax cheat and flack of the 1%? lol.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

82. Ignore the tax "cheat" allegations, and watch the video.

The rest of U2 has to be on stand-by for when he gets around to writing songs and touring. I imagine his concern for their financial well being was upper most on this decision. You cannot look at the work he does and call him a "tax cheat & flack of the 1%". You're being played.

[HiPointDem]

83. they're not allegations and i'm not being played.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

86. "cheat" is different from doing something legally. Any way to hammer this guy . .

is good for conservatives. And I learned a lot from watching the video. It gives me much more hope for the future, if we can learn from his tactics.

[HiPointDem]

87. i watched the video. what did you learn?

[SleeplessinSoCal]

89. That approaching issues to do with poverty can be best solved through civil discourse with

those who disagree with you. And that the best way for me to get through to someone like my idiotic congressman Dana Rohrabacher is by speaking not as an adversary, but as a potential ally.

[HiPointDem]

90. you didn't know that already? you had to suffer through the whole video to learn that?

but you should also learn that it's not just honest 'disagreement' over facts or policies that's the problem.

the problem is that eliminating poverty = eliminating wealth, because they go together like day & night, two faces of the same coin.

and for that reason, neither bono nor rohrbacher nor the people they work for will ever do *shit* to 'eliminate poverty' beyond some photo-op amelioration.

bono left ireland to avoid paying 10% v. 5% tax on his royalties. who's paying the taxes he thinks should be sent to africa to 'eliminate poverty'?

where does he invest his freaking money -- i'd bet he invests some part of it in businesses that exploit africa and african workers.

'Red' was just a giant advertising/PR project to pull pennies from the pockets of workers.

he operates on the same 'OPM' principle the capitalists he works for do.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

97. Boy do we ever disagree. I'll leave it at that.

[HiPointDem]

108. look behind the PR. I'll leave it at that.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

132. Do you believe Bill Gates is working in Africa for the PR?

[HiPointDem]

133. i thought you were going to leave it at that? you misunderstand the reason for the PR. It's

not to pump up bill gates' ego, it's to mystify what's actually going on.

Bill Gates is working in africa to pacify & colonize it for capital.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

135. Wanted to, but "PR" piqued my interest. Now Is see where you're coming from.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

154. I think you should know this about the Gates Foundation vs the Koch Bros

Last edited Tue May 21, 2013, 09:53 PM - Edit history (1)

They supported a documentary “Park Avenue: Money, Power and the American Dream.” It was scheduled to air on PBS on November 12th. Exposed here is the worst wealthy people in the country - The Koch Brothers - who prevented it from being aired.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2013/05/27/130527fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=all

[HiPointDem]

155. I know plenty about the Gates Foundation. The fact that they made a documentary that

attacked a particular set of rich people does not mean they are the good guys. They are not, anymore than JP Morgan was better than Rockefeller, or vice versa.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

113. Civil discourse? That would be good. But apparently against the unwritten rule of some.

Many, actually. All too many.

[Doctor_J]

138. Yeah, how's that working for you?

How many years has that sociopath been collecting government paychecks and bribes from lobbyists? How how much closer is he to seeing it your way on poverty?

This is a big reason we always lose. People like Dana are shooting at us with a .45, and the reposne from people like you is, "Why not try a .32? It would be much less offensive".

[SleeplessinSoCal]

139. I get into twitter arguments with Rohrabacher. Only one time was there a

positive response. He agreed on background checks and actually tweeted "I am with u". I can't help but try to be civil. I'm amazed though that in writing an argument, I cannot tell if someone is angry, sarcastic, condescending or simply blowing smoke. Rohrabacher is a horrible person. But his staff isn't. So I can possibly plead with them to make an effort to persuade him. Something more than what I'm doing now.

[heaven05]

48. the

only thing I have left, for me, is a small hope that fairness, justice and peace will prevail. And that I'll live long enough to see this happen. There is hope.

[limpyhobbler]

59. This post makes you seem very intelligent and well informed.

So there's that.

[abelenkpe]

60. USA is a proud democratic republic

Where corporations are free to influence politicians, pay their way out of crimes individuals would be jailed for, pollute to their hearts content, ship jobs overseas to undemocratic nations that employ children and sometimes slaves, while not paying taxes and paying pundits to tell those of us not within the inner circle of the top 1 or 2 percent that we are lazy moochers.

What's not to love?

[moondust]

64. It started long ago.

Read my sig line and you'll see that even Jefferson recognized the dangers of corporations 200 years ago. And there were only SIX corporations in the U.S. around the time the Constitution was signed (according to David Cay Johnston a few nights ago on the teevee). Not such a big deal way back then.

But I wonder what the "wise old men" thought would eventually develop when they decided again and again to allow the malignant growth of economic entities whose only mandate was to produce profits with little or no regard for how or what the social or environmental costs might be. Would the impersonal, faceless owners/shareholders with only limited liability even know or care how the profits were obtained? Seems to me a fairly predictable prescription for eventual social disaster as those entities merge, conglomerate, and grow more greedy, manipulative, and predatory over time in the endless pursuit of record profits at almost any cost.

[zeemike]

68. What's in a name?

that which we call Fascism
By any other name would stink as rotten;

[drynberg]

69. Yes, there are severe problems for our Nation and especially the poor, the non-white, the unemployed

etc. However, Global Climate Change is gonna eat everyone's lunch, and soon. We currently have 400ppm of CO2 in our atmosphere, whereas 350ppm is the outter limit for our survival...so we got bigger fish to fry than those mentioned by cali above...yes folks, if you want the earth to be able to provide for future generations, we gotta get that obscene 400ppm figure reduced. This means doing our energy thing without burning the millions of tons of hydrocarbons...using a more sustainable form of energy such as the sun, wind, tidal, hydro, etc. We gotta conserve like there's no tomorrow because there ain't unless we get straight now.

[lunasun]

131. +2100

[FirstLight]

146. ..i wasn;t gonna bring THAT part up...

but yea...the climate is gonna fuck us all more quickly than we can get fucked by those in power. However, those on the lower end of the yardstick will definitely feel it worse I think. What's so funny is that everyone just keeps humming along, like there's no reason to stop consuming fossil fuels... meanwhile every model is happening faster than they thought, the feedback loop is increasing velocity...what will be the other shoe dropping?
Without sounding too 'woo' I wonder if there will be some kind of solar flare or something that essentially turns off the switches so we HAVE to find other ways of creating energy. WHY hasn't someone come up with a cheap, easy 'converter' kit for regular cars to make them hybrids? you know it can't be THAT hard? but there are moneyed interests keeping that from happening...stupid, stupid, stupid... no it is easier to just go full throttle till we fall off the edge singing tra-la-la as the ocean swallows us up...

[Douglas Carpenter]

73. that's all true - but the younger generation is more liberal - more willing for change and the shift

in population demographics makes a more progressive future in the United States more likely than ever.

And globally and domestically - I do see one very encouraging development - in spite of all the legitimate reasons to see doom and gloom:

[ucrdem]

78. Good point. Texas will be a blue state in due course

and then all bets are off. I predict it will happen by 2020.

p.s. to cali, look on the bright side. We're not in a hot war with anyone save Afghanistan, and that one is winding down, and every day we don't bomb Iran or Syria is a good day. The domestic doldrums will blow over soon enough. Hopefully before the GOP can stir up any real trouble.

[Turn CO Blue]

79. It's time for a Constitutional Convention.

France is like on their SIXTH Constitution since their revolution. We can keep some of the beautiful prose in the opening, but the rest has to be hammered out AGAIN!

[AndyTiedye]

149. NOOOOO! The Teabaggers Control Too Many State Governments

Any Constitutional convention held now would be hijacked by the Teabaggers, and they would try to turn the USA into Jesusland.
We still have enough state governments that we might be able to prevent their idea of a new constitution from being ratified,
but that is by no means a sure thing.

What is certain is that nothing good can possibly come out of any Constitutional convention as long as they have so much power.

[TheKentuckian]

80. It is a shame too because it doesn't have to be like this but most are caught in a box

made of fear.

Even including all the independent, non-affiliated, and third parties most people are locked into their orbit so much b y fear of the other that they cannot demand the folks they elect represent them or to hold them accountable because the boogie man will always be worse and far too many leave it to the powerful to decide the pre-approved options even within that tight circle of limited possibilities and let the media dictate who is "viable" and eat it up like manna from heaven.

We are like a software program stuck in a loop and the loop is degrading because the loop is an error.

[bhikkhu]

81. Well, we may as well abolish the minimum wage, end SNAP, cancel Obamacare

outlaw gay marriage (again), legalize racism and bring back slavery, shut down the SEC, take away the women's vote (apparently it did no good at all), [etc]... and each sink into our own isolated states of catatonic stupor.

[randome]

85. Catatonic.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[HiPointDem]

88. they're working on it.

[cali]

91. none of which has anything to do with the issues I identified in the OP

and important as those issues are, they don't nullify the corporate control of the government. I'm not suggesting giving up. One doesn't give up just because the odds are heavily stacked, but I challenge you to respond to the issues in the op.

Hint: You did not. at all. period.

try.

[bhikkhu]

92. "beyond redemption"'s fighting words

when something is beyond redemption you give up, let it die, let it rot, walk away and stop wasting your time.

The stuff I listed was accomplished by people who did the exact opposite, and those things listed are also a part of "the present form" of our country. I think it was worth doing, worth fighting for, and worth keeping.

"Beyond redemption" is an insult to everyone who worked to get where we are today.

[randome]

93. And to those who are working still!

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[rhett o rick]

122. None of those will matter if we dont stop the theft of our wealth by the fascist overlords.

How are you going to vote anyone that supports the masses with an election system owned by the Elite Overlords?

Pres Obama has slowed the momentum towards fascism but it has not stopped.

I would love to hear the plan to reverse the slide into fascism.

[alarimer]

96. The first step would be getting corporate money out of elections

So, a Constitutional amendment to ban corporate cash AND provide public funds for all elections, including FREE air time. This would ensure that someone other than millionaires can run.

Also limit the contributions of individuals (this is to prevent rich people from buying candidates).

Severely limit lobbying. Ban groups like ALEC, which writes right-wing legislation and submits it to every state.

[rhett o rick]

120. Of course but how? We fully know what needs to be done, the question is how to do it. Congress

will not reform itself.

[tblue]

102. 2 trusted people said it, IOW

1) RFK Jr. said 75% of Democrats in Washington are corrupt. And 100% of Republicans.

2) Bill Moyers said money in politics is the root of all the worse problems we face, and the reason we can't solve them. Nothing can be fixed until we have real campaign finance reform.

[RobertEarl]

107. Real simple solution

What we have is a failure of representation. Why do we have a failure?

Because we don't have enough representatives. One rep does over 700,000 people. Used to be one rep repped 30,000 people.

Our house of representatives should have 10,000 members.

They do NOT need to all meet in DC, or have an office there. We have the internet, they can all meet online. Discuss online and vote online.

If we did this there would even be a few DUers who would be in office. As it stands, that is not likely.

But of course the dunderheads here will think it can't happen and they will continue to moan and fucking groan while the country goes to hell.

There is only one way up, and that is to up our representation.

The cure for an ill democracy is MORE democracy: Ed Abbey

[santamargarita]

111. I think it's about over here.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

115. A principled person will stand by their principles. You're doing that. The price is dissatisfaction.

If the price of abandoning your principles is not too high, you can
follow the lead of others, join the herd, disregard reality, and be happy.

[rhett o rick]

126. If you arent going to stand by your principles, you might as well become a Republican. nm

[AnotherMcIntosh]

128. Or a 3rd-Wayer. n/t

[rhett o rick]

130. Same thing. nm

[rhett o rick]

121. Is there a difference between Penny Pritzker and Mitt Rmoney? nm

[Egalitarian Thug]

141. Yes. Mitt's daddy did cars, Penny's daddy did hotels. n/t

[rhett o rick]

143. I was thinking that Mit has nicer hair. nm

[Cleita]

127. Shhhh!

You aren't allowed to talk about fascism in polite company.

[woo me with science]

129. "I used to scoff at people who claimed that we're living under fascism."

Fewer and fewer are scoffing, and more and more of those who still are, are desperate propagandists for those doing the plundering.

Every voice like yours that acknowledges what is being done to this country gives me hope.

[H2O Man]

136. Well said.

Recommended.

[FirstLight]

140. my dear cali...

sounds like you are having a particularly hard day

I am going to respond first before reading the rest of the thread...and maybe I'll came back to edit or not.

I agree wholeheartedly that you are spot on in all respects. as a journalist and single mom and woman in her 40s with ever lessening options, I know what world you speak of. Less opportunity seems to be the name of the game as we watch this empire crumble. I wonder how I can make a difference, but really survival ends up trumping all my time and resources... and there are days when I fear it is planned that way. If enough of us are struggling, we won't or can't help each other or form bonds that matter or make a movement work...
and then my rebel girl inside takes me by the collar and says "fuck that!"
I will continue to voice my opinion till they drag me away
I will continue to raise my children as I see fit
I will continue to build connections with people who I can build community with
Because in the end... i think it's going to be our local connections that make all the difference.

fatalistic...ya. call it a symptom of my Generation (X)

[graham4anything]

151. You Gotta Believe!

If the present form is the untrue myth of the 50-50,we shall soon be the 80-20 and render the 20 politically obsolete in the voting booth, so in a sense, the 50-50 (the present form) is non-redemptive indeed.

when one delves in negativity, there is no release.
When one moves forward with hope and optimism one is rewarded all the way around

Material items are NOT what life is about. Worrying that someone has more than someone else is amazingly unrewarding and
is indeed unredemtive in its totality The other man's grass is always greener.
In fact, worrying about what others have, indicates that one is only bothered that they don't have what the other has.
Why worry what someone else has. Happiness does not come with the largest house. Happiness is not the bank account.
Many a rich person has no one in their life to share it with. Many a poor person has unlimited number of great friends in their everyday life.
Eb. Scrooge was certainly rich. But he wasn't happy.

So much great in the world.

Yet, imagine if Dr. King didn't strive, if Teddy didn't dream, if FDR were told he couldn't, if LBJ had so big an ego he said
hell no he wouldn't be demeaned in a Vice President job then never getting the chance to change the world for the good of all as he did.
Imagine if Barack Obama said there wasn't anyway for someone like him to make it, therefore, why bother in the first place.

Hell would be attained if nobody bothered because mired in negativity, they figured why bother.

Why is it that in France they all drive smart cars, and here we drive stupid cars? SUV's and Vans, and Gas Guzzlers.
Could it be that having the biggest, widest, loudest car is not what the world is about?

Optimism and hope is contagious
Pessimism and negativity is also contagious

I opt for moving forward

I disavow instant gratification. All good things take time and hard work.
One doesn't build a jigsaw puzzle from the last piece, but from the first piece.

Nobody ever said life was suppose to be easy. That is a modern day phenom that never has happened in any generation prior to the current one.

When one falls off their horse, one dusts themselves up and gets back on it.

Imagine if Lincoln didn't bother. Imagine if Einstein and Edison didn't bother.
Imagine if Salk didn't bother.

Imagine if the roses didn't bother to bloom.
Imagine if the sun didn't bother to shine.

80-20.


The future can't be stopped, so hop aboard or be left at the station.
How quick one arrives at the next station though is up to the 20 throwing road blocks into the path in their belief that backward is better than forward.

Faith hope and love and believing are not just religious terms. They are life itself.
In believing all things are possible, it happens
In believing nothing is possible, nothing is what happens

As Tug McGraw (father of Tim McGraw), said back in 1973 "You gotta believe" and the NY Mets won the world series doing just that.
And now we are at that point ...we were mired in last place in 2008, now we are into Sept. of that fabled year in baseball

exactly 40 years later, to remind- from wiki-

Ya gotta believe! [edit]

Tug McGraw emerged as one of the top closers in the National League in the early 1970s, enjoying a career year in 1972. He was 3–3 with a 2.01 ERA and fifteen saves at the All-Star break to earn his first All-Star selection. McGraw pitched two innings, striking out four and giving up only one hit to earn the win in the NL's 4–3 come from behind victory.[14] For the season, McGraw went 8–6 with a 1.70 ERA, giving up just 71 hits in 106 innings pitched, and setting a Mets record with 27 saves that lasted until 1984.

Whereas 1973 wasn't as good a year statistically for McGraw, he may have been the most valuable player on the team for the leadership role he assumed for the league champions. The Mets had fallen into last place in the NL East, and had remained there through August 30. McGraw was the winning pitcher for the Mets on August 31 when the Mets emerged from last place with an extra innings victory over the St. Louis Cardinals.[15] The win improved McGraw's record to 2–6 with a 5.05 ERA.

For the remainder of the season, McGraw went 3–0 with a 0.57 ERA and ten saves. The Mets, meanwhile, went 20–8 from that point forward to pull off the stunning division title. Along the way, McGraw coined a popular rallying cry for the Mets, "Ya Gotta Believe!" He said the famous phrase when maybe only he believed the Mets could actually get to the World Series. But soon enough, hearing McGraw say it again and again, seeing him do his magic in the ninth, the Mets themselves came to believe. They pulled into first place on September 21 with a 10–2 victory over the Pittsburgh Pirates,[16] and clinched the division crown on the final day of the season. 17][18]

You Gotta Believe!

[Notafraidtoo]

152. I don't know how we can do anything until..

campaign finance reform,all elections should be publicly funded,small limited donations(so low that it doesn't matter who you ask for it) and media should be forced to offer free air time for candidates at least public media that use our public airwaves. our representative's spend hours everyday of their time in office asking for money from big donors in order to run for the next election and getting those donations require favors that are almost always against the best interest of the rest of us.

Corporation's write our bills because they paid for our elections,they are taking over our states with very little money( well to them a few mil to control a state is a bargain for a billionaire).

We should set up our campaign funding in this country in such a way that anyone that wins a primary or has enough support from voters can win a election and money has almost no effect on the outcome,I think democracy in the future will be imposable with out this.

I also think that our elected officials should be limited in options after they leave office call it patriotism or the price of service to this country but joining a lobbing firm or getting a ceo job from someone you wrote a bill for or presented a bill by should be illegal.

The incentives for corruption are just too great, remove the incentives then we will get good people who do it because they love our country not for a job afterward.

[OneGrassRoot]

153. I hear you, Cali.

I agree with you, too.

I wish we could have more of the really tough conversations, like what's "too much" (since discussing what's "enough" is too subjective and individualistic).

Conversations that really work toward establishing what we as citizens truly value and would prioritize.

I agree that legislative action isn't hopeful while $$ has a stranglehold on DC (though I think we should still work toward removing that stranglehold).

So, a grassroots conversation to shift things is what I see; then maybe the media will pick upon that conversation and start to reflect this discussion about values and priorities...then the marketplace can start to reflect it...and maybe then our government can become a more accurate reflection of our values.

All of which takes time and energy, both of which most of us are severely lacking.

Still, it's something.

Like you said, doing something -- locally, anything...whatever we can each day, even if it's a matter of being mindful of our individual choices and how that impacts things -- is better than nothing. How can we do nothing once we're aware?