Do you believe masculinity is a social construct?

[sibelian]

If so, I have another question.

Do you believe that homosexuality is innate? Predicated by genes?

If you believe believe both, how did my genes mold my personality into something that was sexually attracted to something artificially constructed by other people?

[marions ghost]

1. Define masculinity

[YoungDemCA]

4. This....

I, too, am curious.

[Evasporque]

181. masculine and feminine are descriptions used to engender an object or person

the words them selves are constructs of a variety of characteristics found in nature.

Masculine associated with male
Feminine with female.

The terms mean different things depending on how they are used.

If masculine is used to describe a human male. Most cultures associate the imagery that comes to mind with the perceived perfect example of male masculinity.

Cultures do exist that show one cultures masculinity is another's femininity...



Here a Masai Warrior to many in the western world there are numerous feminine visual cues occuring here. However to another Masai this is a very powerful and attractive man. As are these men from Niger showing off for potential suitors.

[redqueen]

11. This.

I'm a het female, and I dislike most characteristics which would stereotypically be considered "masculine".

[marions ghost]

12. Agree

That's why we need a working definition...
or my mind goes into weird places...

[Buzz Clik]

55. ... which comes as a shock to no one.

[redqueen]

112. Meaning? nt

[Buzz Clik]

128. I was not shocked to hear your declaration.

[redqueen]

130. I'm talking about sexual orientation and gender bullshit. What are you talking about?

I'm really very curious why you said what you did, and what exactly you think it has to do with this conversation.

[Buzz Clik]

131. After 102,000 posts you still don't understand how a discussion board works?

Someone makes a comment, and someone else responds. Generally, though not always, the response is focused on the subject matter of the comment.

You made a comment, and I responded directly to you about your comment. There was nothing hidden, nothing between the lines, no nuance.

Traditionally, this is where you say something ugly and angry. Knowing what's coming, I'll give you the last word.

Have a lovely day.

[redqueen]

132. Yeah. I didn't think you'd have the courage to explain your cutesy little jab.

And that's ironic how you imply I'll say something ugly after your stupid shitty crack about "understanding discussion boards work".



Pathetic.

[Buzz Clik]

133. Oh, I wasn't trying to be cute. I was dead serious.

I just put a little sunshine on your very telling comment.

And, guess what? You responded exactly as predicted. Consistency is a wonderful thing ... most of the time. Sometimes it's just a repetition of ugliness.

[EOTE]

144. I'm sure you'll be just as forthcoming with you explaining everything that you say.

How incredibly odd that someone calls you out on your hostility and you respond with more hostility.

[redqueen]

145. What hostility is it that you seem to think he was calling out?

As for my reaction to his little 'how discussion boards work' jab, if you find it surprising that making shitty digs at someone is met with hostility then ... well...

[EOTE]

146. Your posts tend to be rather acridly anti-men.

So when you post about how you generally don't like qualities which are typically considered masculine, that particular poster noted that it was not in the least way shocking to him. You rudely persist multiple times in asking him what he means by that when he said what he meant in the very first post. Being able to read is the sole requirement for understanding that particular post, it's not difficult at all. He explains himself multiple times, but then you accuse him for being a coward for not explaining himself. He explained himself quite well, it's not his fault you are utterly incapable of understanding what he says. Yes, that IS how discussion boards work. But they usually run on the assumption that the frequenters are capable of understanding simple sentences such as those.

[redqueen]

147. lol... no... it's only *certain types of men* (and their female counterparts) who think my posts are

anti-men.

Your posts tend to be rather acridly anti-men.

So when you post about how you generally don't like qualities which are typically considered masculine, that particular poster noted that it was not in the least way shocking to him. You rudely persist multiple times in asking him what he means by that when he said what he meant in the very first post. Being able to read is the sole requirement for understanding that particular post, it's not difficult at all. He explains himself multiple times, but then you accuse him for being a coward for not explaining himself. He explained himself quite well, it's not his fault you are utterly incapable of understanding what he says. Yes, that IS how discussion boards work. But they usually run on the assumption that the frequenters are capable of understanding simple sentences such as those.

Aw, you're a little precious one too, arentcha?

It was so rude of me to ask him multiple times!

[EOTE]

148. And he answered multiple times.

Not that it should have been necessary considering his original post was in plain English. But it's alright, no need to feel ignorant for being unable to understand a simple sentence. You got the last laugh by being able to report to your support group about how awful and evil those terrible minz treated you.

[marions ghost]

129. If you're calling me weird

I take it as a compliment.

Yeah some of us are weird & weirder. I'm not the only one.

[redqueen]

135. It was an asinine attempt at a veiled personal attack on me.

Hence his cowardly refusal to explain just what the fuck he meant.

[snooper2]

137. I think he was trying to say

he didn't imagine you hooking up with the Dos Equis dude?


LOL

&nofeather=True

[UtahLib]

140. Spectacular backfire!

I'd say he succeeded in illuminating his own predictable behavior.

[redqueen]

149. And now another one has joined in...

Predictable, but the antics are also amusing in their own sad little way

[UtahLib]

150. Yes

There are those who seem adamantly persistant in adhering to their preferred script whether their comments add anything of value to the conversation or not. I agree that amusement may be the most valid and healthy reaction to such a transparently nasty swipe at your character. Hopefully, that reaction might diminish whatever perverted gratification the bullies are striving for.

[BainsBane]

158. So what exactly is wrong about being a lesbian?

Tell us.

[UtahLib]

160. Where did I say anything of the sort? n/t

[BainsBane]

161. I read Redqueen's comment

as her not being attracted to masculine traits but rather feminine ones. You all jump over that like she doesn't have a right to that sexual identity.

[UtahLib]

162. Actually

My comment was in defense of Redqueen concerning an attack from another poster. Considering her response to me, I'm certain she understood that.

[BainsBane]

163. sorry

[UtahLib]

164. You hurt my feelings.

Just kidding-misunderstandings happen. I'm getting just a little tired of witnessing the abuse heaped on certain posters for no apparent reason other than a particular group's capacity for harboring a nasty grudge.

[BainsBane]

165. I completely agree

[marions ghost]

141. OK I see it now

He and his associates are not shocked.
OK then.

[redqueen]

142. ...

That shocked smiley +."OK then" =

[sibelian]

175. Well, if you've already got an idea of what is "stereotypically masculine"

I don't understand why you're asking me for a definition.

Why "stereotypically"?

[Warpy]

76. No kidding. It can be completely separate from gender preference

and varies highly from culture to culture.

Without a definition, the question is useless.

[snooper2]

136. here you go - Henry Rollins, Man Test

Henry Rollins Is Interviewed About His Childhood, Life And Psychologically Analyzed For His Masculine And Feminine Traits

With Analysis By Clinical Psychologist Oliver James

Broadcast 18/12/2000

[marions ghost]

193. thanks for that

...interesting....

Here's Part 2:

The researcher gives Henry Rollins a Masculinity score of 67 and a femininity score of 73.

He had an abusive father.

[ZombieHorde]

152. OK.

Masculinity is a rhetorically constructed set of cultural rules and imposed norms for people with penises. Some of these rules change every so many years.

In the US, some of these rules include:
1. Provide for your family.
2. Protect your family from outside attackers.
3. Eschew the feminine.
4. Love having sex with women.
5. Don't be too affectionate with other adult males.
6. Enjoy the right sports. Football is right, couples figure skating is not right.
Plus lots of others.

[marions ghost]

194. & lots of others

yes.

So what do you think of these rules.

[ZombieHorde]

199. Generally speaking, I think they're a bit anoying an anochoronistic.

Telling someone how to be a proper man is like telling someone how to be a proper read head. Some of the rules may have made sense thousands of years ago, but now they're just absurd.

[sibelian]

173. Hm.

If you don't have an understanding of the concept, I'm not sure I can explain it to you. I know what I'm attracted to.

[Vincardog]

2. No and yes

[galileoreloaded]

3. if you gotta ask, you dont know. nt

[cherokeeprogressive]

5. No. Yes. Pass.

[MattBaggins]

9. Yeah way too much for a simple discussion board

[cherokeeprogressive]

14. No. I actually have the definitive answer.

Unfortunately, I'm typing on my cell phone due to being in a campground in San Luis Obispo on vacation. This is killing my thumbs. For that reason I can't provide the answer, so I'll have to pass.

[Squinch]

31. OH! I'm jealous! Have a nice vacation!

[cherokeeprogressive]

93. It's started Sunday and is over tomorrow.

I'll have a six hour drive home but that's one of my favorite things; long drives with my Baby. The drive on the 101 South is a gorgeous one. I also have the good fortune of calling Big Bear Lake in the top of the San Bernardino National Forest home so it's not a destination I'm sorry to have to return to.

But still. The alarm will go off at five Monday morning like it does the other 51 weeks of the year. Holidays? I'm a trash man. Trash doesn't sleep. In fact, holidays seem to be the favored breeding time for the animal I call trash. Memorial Day is coming up... I only wish I got paid by the ton instead of by the hour.

A week in wine country finds me back home refreshed and recharged.

[arely staircase]

34. you fucking suck

because I wish I were you.

[cherokeeprogressive]

101. Come on now... You live in Austin. Sixth Street? Lake Travis?

There are only two places I'd rather live than where I do now and Austin is one of them. I spent a year living in Round Rock. Would that I could have found a decent job there... I surely would still be an Austin resident. Texas Hill Country is one of my favorite places in the whole of the US.

I had a friend there whose Brother was the first to rent personal watercraft at Lake Travis. He lived in Lago Vista. Good times. Goooood times.

[BainsBane]

167. Yeah, I miss Austin too

[Jamastiene]

94. You should send DU a virtual postcard.

Some of us would appreciate pictures. Have fun!!!

[cherokeeprogressive]

95. The old Digital Rebel uses a compact flash card and this laptop has only

a port for an SD card. I'll post a few pics in The Lounge on Saturday.

[kwassa]

100. I love both San Luis Obispo, and Big Bear, and let us not forget Lake Arrowhead ...

I do miss California.

[cherokeeprogressive]

104. I love Arrowhead but it's always been a mystery to me.

How in the hell is it possible that the water in Lake Arrowhead is so clear, when only 26 miles away the water in Big Bear Lake is so murky?

I grew up in the South Bay area. Norwalk to be specific. Used to ride my bike down Norwalk Boulevard to Seal Beach.

I quit my job as Orange County's Poll Worker Training Coordinator to move to Big Bear in 2007 at my Wife's behest after being passed over for a promotion. I was told I didn't have the requisite experience for the job of Elections Supervisor. The person they hired was a 23 year old Vietnamese lady whose ONLY elections experience was a Political Science class she took at UCLA. I guess if you know anything about Orange County, CA demographics you can understand the thinking... at the time, I couldn't. She lasted ONE election. I had already made many friends in the Vietnamese communities in Westminster and Garden Grove.

Yeah well... I live in Big Bear now with an unobstructed view of the lake. Screw them.

[kwassa]

108. I worked in a refugee program for Vietnamese Re-Eds...

in Los Angeles county, in LA and in El Monte, I was the only white case manager.

A good and noble project, that unfortunately ran out of funding. I worked for both Los Angeles County and Catholic Charities in different aspects of these programs.

and they showed me many great Vietnamese and Chinese restaurants, and invited me to their home for the New Year's celebrations.

[gollygee]

6. Huh?

It sounds like you are equating masculinity with heterosexuality?

[sibelian]

172. I don't understand that.

How did you get that from what I posted?

[ismnotwasm]

7. Social masculinity or biological masculinity?

Social is a construct, biology within biological limits is not.

It's actually a sophisticated and complicated question----consider transgendered peoples. They are biologically whatever gender they are are, yet they know, innately and with every sense of their being, they are NOT that gender. Now is that social, biological or a combination?

[sibelian]

176. I don't know if

I have any view of what social masculinity is. I don't see how you could reasonably form one.

I don't undertsand how your second point pertains to what I posted?

[Rex]

8. Do you believe critical thinking is a social construct?

Me first.

[sibelian]

183. Actually...not quite.

I don't think I do.

I don't know if what I'm about to talk about fits with what you think of as "critical thinking" but I think the corvidae exhibit what might be thought of as rudimentary critical thinking. They can choose tools to perform tasks. Sometimes they make them. this seems to me to be the root of some kind of system that makes judgements, which I think would be the start of the more moulded process that we now use.

So, not really.

Good question. My answer toyour question has possibly revealed tome a very good answer to my OP.

[YoungDemCA]

10. Genetics and environment intersect and interact with each other

It's not a simple "either-or" answer.

But if you think that the hetero-normative American concept of "masculinity" is somehow "innate" then sorry, I'll have to call bullshit on that.

[BainsBane]

13. gender conventions more broadly are socially constructed

How we perceive masculinity and femininity is a product of culture. So yes, of course it's a social construct. That doesn't mean there aren't biological differences between men and women, but the ideas we use to understand those differences are culturally bound.

Your post reflects a confusion between gender, sex, and biology. Sex is a biological category: one is born male, female, or intersex. Gender is the set of ideas we create in an effort to understand those differences and order society. Gender is something human beings create, and it has changed across time. What it means to be man or woman today is not the same as 100, 200, of 1000 years ago, despite the fact we have not changed biologically.

[panader0]

15. No

[Deep13]

16. Gender is in fact a social construct.

Orientation is not the same thing as gender. All indications are that it is innate. Why doesn't anyone ever ask if heterosexuality is innate? I have no idea what role genetics play in orientation.

You are confusing sex and gender. Sex is physical, gender is performative. To the degree that we are attracted to gender rather than sex, I don't know the answer.

[sibelian]

182. "You are confusing sex and gender"

What does this mean? What aspect of "sex" am I confusing with "gender"? I don't understand that response at all.

[Tien1985]

188. This is a very simplistic explanation

But sex is between the legs, gender is between the ears. They are not interchangeable words/concepts, but that often catches people off guard.

I'm attracted to petty much anyone from a physical standpoint, that is my sexual orientation. My sex is determined by the body parts I was born with, what they develop into and how I alter them. My gender is my innate understanding of myself as a man/woman/trans* person. Masculinity and femininity are how people perceive the adherence to gender roles (roles that have been made by society and change over time).

For instance, it used to be considered "masculine" for men to be educated, today a competing gender role portrays "masculine" young men as over the top, or ignorant and proud. One man may find his PhD to be a sign of his masculinity, while another feels that by sleeping through classes and drinking till dawn he shows how masculine he really is. How other people in their lives view "masculinity" will determine if they are seen as masculine or feminine.

Also, sexual orientation is not caused by any particular gene that evidence can show. In fact, sexuality can be fluid, likely all due to epigenetic factors.

[Deep13]

197. I don't remember what we were talking about. ...

Generally speaking, sex (n.) is physical. That is, it is determined by ones primary and secondary sex traits: inddor vs. outdoor plumbing, facial hair or not, breasts or not, narrow vs. wide hips. Females create babies, males provide half the genetic material. That's sex.

Everything else is gender. Clothing choices, hair choices, social roles, roles in the economy, roles in child rearing. Even expected personalities are gender constructs. Women are nurturing and cooperative while men are assertive and authoritarian, for instance.

[Gravitycollapse]

17. Yes, masculinity is a social construct. Homosexuality is also mostly socially constructed...

Your sexuality is the product of biological predispositions that are acted upon by social and cultural standards. This interaction is often totally subconscious and can take place at a fairly early age. By the time you become consciously aware of their sexuality, it likely has developed enough according to social sexual binaries that it is essentially set-in; permanent.

No one is born with a defined sexuality. Even if Lady Gaga wants you to think otherwise.

[Marrah_G]

19. "No one is born with a defined sexuality" I disagree

[Gravitycollapse]

21. Under what conditions do you disagree?

[Marrah_G]

23. Under any condition.......

Sexuality is not a choice. People don't choose to be straight or to be gay. They just are.

People who are Bi-sexual don't choose to be, they just are. If they choose to be with someone of the same gender or of the opposite gender, they continue to be bi-sexual.

[Gravitycollapse]

25. In what post did I say one's sexuality is a choice?

[Marrah_G]

27. I really don't want to play this game tonight

I'm going to just hide the thread like I should have when I saw it.

[Gravitycollapse]

29. No. Tell me where I said that one's sexuality is a choice. Try rereading what I wrote.

Because clearly you didn't understand it the first time.

[Occulus]

79. I believe your peppering of qualifiers is the damning part.

I'm gay and I always was. No, not prior to my sexuality being exercised upon, or even thought of. I'm talking about back to the age I was a small child, and yes, I do in fact recall. Furthermore, parental, social and cultural influences did not have diddly-damn to do with determining one least littlest damned thing about it at any point. I simply was. The fact I didn't have a name for it until later, and admit it to myself and accept it until after that, does not mean one good goddamned thing. I was gay before I had a word, and before I figured out I was.

I'm going to repeat someone else, because clearly you didn't understand it the first time.

Homosexuality is not a choice, under any circumstances.

It may indeed depend upon the mutual interaction of several different genes during fetal development, combined with effects of hormonal, etc., conditions upon the fetus in utero, but homosexuality is not a choice, end of the whole discussion.

[Gravitycollapse]

82. Well, no, you weren't gay from birth if that is what you are saying.

If you are saying that you learned your sexuality as a young child, before you possessed the intellectual or sexual capacity to fully comprehend it, and that it was never choice, then I am in total agreement with you.

But to say that social and cultural influence had nothing to do with your sexual identity is ridiculous.

[Occulus]

106. an orientation is born into each human body and nothing you can say will ever change that.

Sometimes it's exclusively one way, sometimes it's exclusively the other, sometimes it's a mix. Multiple degrees of practice between the three, and much possible area in which one can land, and after one starts fucking that does indeed get shaped, and can change over time, but the basic template is already there, and manifests itself with age. Society and culture have noting at all to do with the predisposed third in which one lands. You can hide it, or claim to cure it (see below for your own glorious takedown on that score)

Your whole line of reasoning is one of the more slimy and vile, not to mention grossly offensive, defenses of so-called "reparative therapy" for homosexuals I see. How nice of you to try to lay such reasoned, well-thought groundwork for those torturing motherfuckers. Unfortunately for you, Jeanyuss, I've seen this exact bullshit "argument" before and I recognize exactly what you're doing. I'll clue you this: this one's pretty old hat. Idiot.

Acceptance of your tactic, which you probably think is clever, depends upon the victim's willingness to accept that you at least come by this insulting set of lies honestly, and actually believe it to be true. Having been there and done that, both by seeing your pathetic untruths before elsewhere and in the most humanly personally possible of all known literal senses, I assure you that you are 100% wrong. Not just a little. Not even a lot. Your entire premise is dead fucking wrong from the very first word of the very first post, and you are wrong in all included details. You are not right, from first to last. Nothing- not one word, including 'and' and 'the'- you have to say about this is true. No, not even the damned commas and periods.

Furthermore, and I'm going to put this as mildly and politely as I am capable of, because I want you to pay very special attention here, you dirty, stinking remains of weasel roadkill, [font size="4"]don't you fucking dare to presume to lecture or "correct" me about things from my childhood experiences and daily life that I actually recall quite vividly, and by definition infinitely and forever better than you can claim, thank you very DAMNED much, from my own childhood.

[font size="5"]Who in the frigid blue fuck do you think you are?[/font][/font]

That you won't take it from an actually gay man who actually remembers what it was actually like and tells you- but will have the unmitigated gall to lecture that same gay man on a childhood he lived when you were completely absent at all moments- tells me I don't have to make the same mistake twice when I ask myself in the future (however long or short your future here on DU may be) if you're making an honest argument regarding this topic. As this exchange, and the rest of this thread, very conclusively proves beyond every thinkable doubt ever potentially raised in any possible universe by any reasonable person, you do not honestly believe this shit, and quite clearly have an agenda.

And it's the intent behind your pile of scat that makes you a bigot. Not because you honestly believe this utter tripe to have so much as a mote of truth.

Go peddle your tissue-thin defense of this fucking hideous, scarringly traumatic bullshit "therapy" scam someplace else. There isn't a single person here who doesn't see through you like glass.

[Iggo]

121. .

[Whisp]

134. Thankyou! I can't believe the freakin' denseness of who you are replying to.

good gracious.

[Jasana]

159. Thank you Occulus

For a long, long time I was bisexual but I didn't tell anybody because I thought it was a choice. It took me awhile to realize that it wasn't a choice.

While I could chose to date a man or chose to date a woman, I found I had no choice at all over who I fell in love with. I've fallen in love with two people in my life. One was a man and the other was a woman. I couldn't stop it from happening.

[uppityperson]

60. "No one is born with a defined sexuality" Furthermore "Your sexuality is the product of biological..

"Your sexuality is the product of biological predispositions that are acted upon by social and cultural standards."

[Gravitycollapse]

62. In what way did any of that express the sentiment that I think we choose our sexuality?

[uppityperson]

63. Since you aren't "born with a defined sexuality", then what ARE you saying?

[Gravitycollapse]

66. That your sexuality is determined in part by socialization and biological predispositions...

Which is not, as I've already said, always or even often consciously instilled and is often learned at a very young age.

Are you not aware of the concept of socialization?

Something as immensely complex as one's sexuality is not determined by any singular or even a large collection of decisions. It is born from the totality of one's life experiences. Most of which, as far as gender and sexual identity are concerned, are not consciously learned.

[uppityperson]

68. Thank you for answering before asking another question.

"your sexuality is determined in part by socialization and biological predispositions"

Do you mean that with enough "socialization", one can over ride "biological predispositions"? What percentage does "socialization" and "biological predisposition" play as far as sexual orientation?

[Gravitycollapse]

71. No, once one's sexual or gender identity is learned, it is essentially impossible to alter...

I mean, I'm sure there are methods of erasing someone's psyche that are probably effective and also probably cruel, dangerous or potentially deadly. But there is no safe method of reorientation.

Even if there was, though, why would it matter? I hate to move the goal posts here. But we can't argue ourselves into a corner and then be unprepared if the facts change. Even if there was efficacious method, why would we need it? There's nothing wrong with being gay or straight or bisexual or polysexual or pansexual or whatever other identities exist along such a continuum.

Giving exact figures as to the ratio would be ridiculous as we are dealing with qualitative and not quantitative values. Although I happen to believe that our identities are more so the result of socialization than biology.

[uppityperson]

72. You believe our sexual orientation is more result of socialization than biology? So people who are

gay have been "socialized" to be gay, and those who are hetero are so mainly due to "socialization" vs biology?

[Gravitycollapse]

75. Yes.

[uppityperson]

78. Wow. People are hetero or gay due to socialization more than biology. What. The. Fuck.

So it isn't that you "chose" it, but how you've been "socialized".

Incredible.

Thank you for answering so directly.

[Gravitycollapse]

81. You're welcome?

I can't tell if you're being obtuse or genuinely thankful.

[uppityperson]

84. Thanking you for answering and appalled that you don't think sexual orientation is biological but

instead is sociological. That it is how you were raised. What you were exposed to, etc. I guess my older gay sib was socialized much differently than me.

Incredible.

[Jamastiene]

96. How do you explain the fact that so many gay people are born to straight parents

and grew up in a straight oriented household?

[cherokeeprogressive]

114. Left-handed people are born to right-handed parents and grow up in a right-handed world.

Go figure.

[sibelian]

177. How do you know any of this to be true?

[Marrah_G]

18. sigh

Homosexuality has nothing to do with masculinity or femininity.

[Gravitycollapse]

22. Homosexuality as a social construct has a lot to do with the masculine/feminine binary.

As it is a result of the heterosexual/homosexual binary.

These binaries are socially constructed.

[Marrah_G]

24. I disagee

Whether someone has more masculine or feminine traits does not determine which gender they are attracted to.

[BainsBane]

26. that's not what s/he's saying

I believe the argument is the notion that one is either gay or straight is a product of social conventions that enforce rigid sexual identities.

[Gravitycollapse]

36. Thank you.

[Gravitycollapse]

28. Wrong. Both binaries intermingle and build upon one another.

This is a complex subject. Our social and sexual identities are not separate but in fact part of our greater identity. Each part is informed by and informs other parts.

[bluedigger]

120. Hetero/Homosexuality is not binary.

The idea that it is binary is itself a social construct. All people fall within a gradual range of sexuality and express it differently through socialization. There is no norm.

[loyalsister]

20. Yes

I have been having to watch a very ugly manifestation of that socialization. As I watch my bro in law get angry if his son wants to play with his sister and female cousin, get angry if the kid sheds a tear and force trucks and guns on him, I have no doubt that much of what is understood as masculine is a social construct.

[MineralMan]

30. It is all a continuum.

There are no simple answers, because every person is unique.

[lumberjack_jeff]

32. No and yes.

That said, everyone who considers themselves masculine determines what that means for them.

[LittleBlue]

33. I believe both are natural and not social constructs

Genetics and hormones are primarily responsible for both, IMO. The notion that both are social constructs seems silly to me.

[Gravitycollapse]

35. You should really take some feminist/queer theory courses.

And if given the opportunity help some professors perform research and analyze data.

Very few parts of the psyche are natural or innate.

[LittleBlue]

38. I have

I was required to choose from a variety of courses to satisfy a diversity requirement. I chose a feminist studies course.

[Gravitycollapse]

40. What course was it?

[LittleBlue]

42. It was either Feminist History or

an Introduction to Feminism, though the combination of the two may have been its title. This was roughly 10 years ago.

The book mixed feminism's history with theories, and every chapter ended with an essay by a prominent feminist.

[Gravitycollapse]

44. Neither of those courses go into much feminist theory, if any at all.

And they certainly do not address any queer theory.

[LittleBlue]

45. The book went into some feminist theory

Although like I said, it was an introductory class.

In business school, I was taught the most efficient allocation of capital was in free markets unhindered by excessive regulation. That doesn't mean I needed econ 700 courses to know it conveyed a misleading understanding of the free market system.

[Gravitycollapse]

46. Well it seems you lack a fundamental understanding of gender psych...

or queer theory or social and biological origins of personality/sexual identity.

So maybe you do need the higher courses. They aren't there for shits and giggles. And it's not wise to assume you just know better because you are you.

I've never even run into a biologist who expressed belief in such an essentialist ideology. Most understand that sexuality is at least partially socially constructed.

[LittleBlue]

49. I guess I'm asking

whether you must take those courses to form an educated opinion on it. Because DU is awash in opinions about the economy from people who have never taken an economics course in their lives.

So either DU should cease forming opinions based on personal experiences and not college courses, or not. I have taken a feminism class, but not all ideas from college persuaded me.

[Gravitycollapse]

50. There are a lot of DUers who should stop talking econ out of their ass.

[LittleBlue]

51. But that doesn't make their opinions invalid

I would not think to quote the Austrian school of economics to a person angry that minimum wage can't pay the bills.

The OP asked whether I believe masculinity and homosexuality are social constructs. I do not believe that they are, and I wouldn't assume that a queer theory course would persuade me otherwise. Two years of listening to professors in love with Milton Friedman and Alan Greenspan didn't persuade me that they were right.

[LittleBlue]

57. Oh good. The next time

someone casts doubt on this economic model because they are laid off, overworked, or work hard and can't pay the bills, I'm going to ask them if they've taken an economics course. How in the world did they arrive at the idea they need higher pay? Haven't they taken Econ 201?!

Oh wait, that's true for the healthcare model too. Unless they've been to medical school, why are they forming opinions on how it should be run?

This makes for boring discussion though, arguing about degrees and credentials. I didn't take queer studies, but I don't think it's necessary to form an opinion on masculinity. You obviously do. Seems we've come to an irreconcilable difference of opinion on this. No point in continuing then, good day!

[Gravitycollapse]

64. You are only furthering my own argument. Asking questions is not the same as...

Saying you understand a subject with little or no formal education or experience.

Someone who's screwed over by trickle down economics has every right to question its legitimacy. But that does not mean they possess the knowledge to explain its failure. Do you see the difference?

[MattBaggins]

39. and some biology courses as well

[galileoreloaded]

54. that is....a very interesting statement anchored in....air. please please elaborate. nt

[Gravitycollapse]

56. Well, really they should be taking biology, sociology, social psych...

feminist theory, queer theory...hmmm...philosophy and political science courses. And at least examining prior research and conclusions in all of those fields.

It's hard to pinpoint exactly which courses and texts will lead someone to adopt such beliefs. They are born of complexity and are thus complex themselves.

I'd like to say "hey go read Foucault's History of Sexuality and then flip through The Second Sex and then you'll understand everything." But that would be a lie.

[galileoreloaded]

58. if "Very few parts of the psyche are natural or innate." is what

you are learning at ASU re: psych or sociology, i'm going to run down the street and punch a few professors I know.

you need to spend time with Robert Sapolsky @ Stanford on Youtube. its free and you desperately need an education.

you truly don't understand what and who you are. learn.

[Gravitycollapse]

61. Why would I listen at all to you? Remember this little gem you posted?

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2512380

galileoreloaded (1,674 posts)
12. This is critical for men today to understand especially in the workplace.

View profile
In a 19 year career, it has taken a lot of unlearning to cease deferring to female colleagues based on a perceived weakness to be accounted for.

As a man, and to survive in a 2013 workplace I have had to connect to the feminine worldview. In fact, I started executive coaching on the issue because frankly I am that good at reading it.

What I discovered is that as long as other men continue this abhorrent tradition, women come to expect it as the norm and it makes them targets for men like me. I unashamedly, and using very feminine tactics have single handedly crushed my female business competitors by utilizing their own social structures against them quite effectively. I especially love the crocodile tears that get resorted to as if I even care. This isn't 1950 and I don't care. I quickly remind these women of their professional positions that dictate flat and emotionless interactions.

For the wary exec, this transition provides some very useful chaos in which to hide and self promote, but until this practice ceases to exist and we truly interact as equals, it ultimately hurts women by faulty conditioning.

I certainly do. You have absolutely zero weight in this discussion.

[galileoreloaded]

65. thats reality like it is, not what you want it to be to rationalize your existence

and a very valid strategy in the corporate world in coping with benevolent sexism. no shame in that worldview from me.

and actually, my opinion means quite a bit to people who would surprise you. mostly because i deal in reality not mental gymnastics.

watch robert. learn. grow. or not. i could care less except to offer a teachable moment.

[Gravitycollapse]

67. Jesus Christ. The irony of you speaking about benevolent sexism.

[galileoreloaded]

77. well, its the context of the excerpt you attempted to shame me with

so....it is an important distinction.

just sayin

[Gravitycollapse]

88. It's your damn post. You shamed yourself.

[galileoreloaded]

89. yeah see cat, i'm not ashamed....you are ashamed of ME. i'm describing

an adaptation strategy that works.

does a damned lion lament sneaking up on a sick gazelle, or outsmarting a wildebeest by team hunting? hell no

[ismnotwasm]

85. Ew

That's all I'm saying. Not the gender thing either. The business practice part.

[smirkymonkey]

157. *groan*

so pathetic.

[Petrushka]

127. And, as Einstein said, "If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts."

Or, as Richard Feynman said, "The theoretical broadening which comes from having many humanities subjects on the campus is offset by the general dopiness of the people who study these things." (emphasis added)

[Nikia]

37. Although hormones affect the brain, we are the most learning oriented animal

Which means many gender oriented behaviors are also learned. Gender roles have varied in time and place. I also wonder if high status versus low status can play into gender behaviors. For example, people who lose status for a variety of reasons tend to become more submissive and those who gain status for a variety of reasons become more dominant.

[Honeycombe8]

41. I think masculinity, or much of it, comes from the hormone testosterone.

Some of it is clearly environmental (which there's nothing wrong with, IMO - it's natural for all creatures to take on the characteristics of others of their sex within their species). But birds and other creatures naturally behave differently based on sex. Give a woman testosterone shots, and she'll talk lower, grow facial hair, etc. She will still have a female body because her skeleton was determined at birth...it's female. Shorter arms, longer legs, wider pelvic bones, no adam's apple, smaller bones, smaller hands, etc.

I don't know, and I don't think anyone knows, for sure whether homosexuality is born or created after birth. Scientists have studied this, and last I heard, they haven't been able to determine that.

[markiv]

43. do mallard drakes have green heads?

or is that just a social construct that causes you to see them that way?

[galileoreloaded]

59. actually their heads aren't green

but that is the only wavelength of light reflected from their pigment.

he he he. sorry, couldn't resist.

[Gravitycollapse]

73. Their feathers likely reflect many different wavelengths along the spectrum.

It just so happens to be the case that within the visible spectrum, the wavelengths emitted are sensed as equaling some shade of green.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[galileoreloaded]

74. a more complete answer to be sure. nt

[Gravitycollapse]

80. Apologies if I sound uppity. You just stumbled upon two topics fundamental to my education...

Astrophysics and sex/gender theory. Not that they are related. Because God knows they aren't.

[galileoreloaded]

87. nah its a good discussion....

your just wrong he he he

[KittyWampus]

105. You need to learn some basic social skills. You can be book smart and people stupid.

You also need to learn the logic phrase "appeal to authority".

Cause your reply to a previous poster indicates you don't know how to phrase an argument or rebuttal.

[LanternWaste]

154. Is not that one of many valid definitions of "green"?

"that is the only wavelength of light reflected from their pigment...."

Is not that one of many valid definitions of "green"?

[galileoreloaded]

155. green is merely a shared and amorphous concept

based on the chemical and electrical signature of the receiver.

at the end of the day we are gurgling biology surrounded by an emotional matrix. monkeys with thumbs.

most people are just to weak to comprehend how incredibly irrelevant and un-special we truly are. a mutating virus.

[Kurska]

47. Is femininity a social construct? n/t

[Gravitycollapse]

53. Yes.

[redStateBlueHeart]

48. Same as with everything

The tendencies are innate (hormones, etc.), and culture's definition of "masculinity" hones it.

[fishwax]

69. I don't think being gay/straight is necessarily about desiring masculinity/femininity

I've known gay men and straight women who weren't particularly attracted to "masculine" guys, and I've known gay women and straight men who weren't particularly attracted to "feminine" women.

[sibelian]

187. So what about the ones that are?

What is it that they are attracted to?

[fishwax]

198. they're attracted to people with traits

that are contextually seen as masculine/feminine.

[Bonobo]

70. If you really want to know if gender is a social construct...

Look at as many cultures throughout the world and throughout history.
Consider their commonality.

Then throw in a healthy dose of animal behavior. Humans are, after all, animals and give that a "pinch" of consideration.

I think that will give you a pretty good idea.

Anyone that advances the idea that gender roles is purely a social construct is high on the kook scale in my opinion.

[BainsBane]

83. that would include virtually every academic

in the humanities and social sciences for the past fifty years.

[Bonobo]

86. Nonsense. nt

[BainsBane]

91. the problem is you misunderstand

the difference between gender and sex. Sex is biological. Gender is cultural. No reputable academic confuses the two. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2822360

Read the other posts in this thread if you don't believe me. Or consult find any recent publications in peer reviewed journals in anthropology, sociology, gender studies or queer studies.

[Bonobo]

98. Everything is cultural if you want to play that game.

Because culture includes everything.

But that does not mean that there are not underlying biological factors that broadly determine the scope of gender roles.

Cross-cultural studies and even cross-species studies are vital in sifting through the variations that are strictly culture-specific and human specific. Throw out the overly specific attributes and you are left with general attributes that point to the underlying differences.

[BainsBane]

109. It's not a game

Of course there are biological factors, but masculinity is not among them. Masculinity is our IDEA of what it means to be male.

[Bonobo]

110. What you are saying is that "masculinity" is an undefined term.

And I agree.

It is up to men to decide how we wish to act and to me, it covers the entire spectrum of human behavior.

Having said that, ask 1,000 people in 100 countries what "masculinity" is, and you will see many common descriptions. It is not an accident nor is that all based on culture-bound concepts. There is an underlying truth no matter how difficult it may be to see behind the veil of cultural-specific descriptions.

[BainsBane]

115. so which concepts are not culturally bound?

and are instead innate? For that to be true, they would need to apply to men in all societies throughout history.

[Bonobo]

116. I have not done the research that I think necessary to strip away the culture-bound traits.

But, theoretically, the answer to that could be derived in the way I suggested.

You seem to recognize the rather common-sense observation that at least some of what we identify as "gender traits" are influenced through biology... Yes? Well that means that there are, in fact, innate attributes.

What they are precisely is beyond my ability to say with certainty, but my guess is that the answer would reflect behavior towards high pressure situations and how to deal with them that are noticeably different than how women, on large, deal with them.

Perhaps deeply biologically influenced reactions to danger and the like would seem to be the most likely.

[BainsBane]

117. I don't know about reactions to danger

all living creatures have an innate instinct for self preservation. I think biology does have some influence, though I agree one would need to see detailed research to know exactly how. Many traits long assumed to be biological have been shown to be cultural.
Perhaps some aspects of child rearing relate to hormones, but I don't really know.

[Bonobo]

118. Degrees.

There is an innate instinct for self preservation just as their is an innate instinct to nurture and protect our species' young. But men and women do so differently and in different amounts, with of course variation from individual to individual.

But would women react to potential danger with a "fight" response as often as men in the same situation? I don't know, but my guess is that men would fight more.

Would men tend to pick up and make cooing sounds to an abandoned infant? I doubt that as well.

So would it be surprising then that "masculine" is a term often associated with men fighting and "feminine" is a term that is often associated with "feminine"?

That sort of puts a wrinkle in the idea all creditable academics say that gender traits are nothing but a social construct, no?

[BainsBane]

119. you misunderstand the point

You are again confusing gender and sex. The two are different. Gender is by definition cultural. That doesn't mean there cannot be biological influences, however.
Race is also a cultural construction. That doesn't mean there are not physiological differences between peoples, but race itself is the set of ideas we use to focus on certain differences and ignore others in categorizing people.

As for biological behaviors unique to men vs. women, without actual evidence we're really just speculating.

[marions ghost]

196. But

Girls are taught from childhood not to fight. Boys are encouraged to fight.

Boys are taught not to coo (or cuddle) an infant--that is "womens business."

Who knows what people would do if they were not taught these roles?

Your arguments don't really add up.

[snooper2]

189. Here is one---

Been tried, done by men throughout time LOL

[BainsBane]

190. I'm going to go out on a limb

and speculate that Pepsi didn't exist in the Bronze Age. So imbibing large quantities of high fructose corn syrupy beverages is probably not innately biological.

[snooper2]

191. Find me a video of a woman trying to down a 2 liter of anything

I have it on solid evidence that men have been trying this for thousands and thousands of years- You know the whole Jesus and water to wine story bit?, Well- The part they don't tell you is that Peter tried to slam a full pot of it (in under 2 minutes)

[BainsBane]

192. Okay, I'll defer to your expertise on this matter

I certainly agree that no woman is going to try that.

[ismnotwasm]

97. There's a fairly wide variety.

Wide enough that sociologists refer to it 'masculinities' in the plural. 'Roles' are always a social construct. Biological function is not. So does biology drive formation of certain gendered roles? Of course.

Which begs the question can a man provide 'mothering'' in absence of any other alternative? Or will masculinity in the traditional sense preclude any ability to 'mother'? Do we need to redefine 'mothering' to fit masculinity?

Human beings have proved to have enough elasticity in response to environment for for rapid change. Things such as environment, socio-economic hierarchies, and just plain old life experiences also drive gender 'roles' in enough diversity across the board to put all hard line definitions in question.

[Bonobo]

99. I agree with you completely and without reservation. nt

[ismnotwasm]

102. Nice

[Zorra]

90. I dunno. Maybe you were born gay and are simply hardwired to be attracted to the scent of males?

The fact is, we don't have all the information. There may be different intersex variations in human brain physiology just as there are intersex variations in human external sex characteristics.

The link below will hopefully pose a dilemma for anyone who makes confident absolute statements asserting that they know with absolute certainty about sex physiology, gender, gender and sexual orientation, and sex and gender determination.

Intersex,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

Intersex, in humans and other animals, is a variation in sex characteristics including chromosomes, gonads, and/or genitals that do not allow an individual to be distinctly identified as male or female. Such variation may involve genital ambiguity, and combinations of chromosomal genotype and sexual phenotype other than XY-male and XX-female.[1][2] Intersex infants with ambiguous outer genitalia may be surgically 'corrected' to more easily fit into a socially accepted sex category. Others may opt, in adulthood, for surgical procedures in order to align their physical sex characteristics with their gender identity or the sex category to which they were assigned at birth. Others will not become aware that they are intersex—unless they receive genetic testing—because it does not manifest in their phenotype. Some individuals may be raised as a certain sex (male or female) but then identify with another later in life, while others may not identify themselves as either exclusively female or exclusively male.[1][2][3] Research has shown gender identity of intersex individuals to be independent of sexual orientation, though some intersex conditions also affect an individual's sexual orientation.[4]

Intersexuality as a term was adopted by medicine during the 20th century.[1][2] Intersex conditions received attention from intersex activists, who criticized traditional medical approaches in sex assignment and sought to be heard in the construction of new approaches.[5] The passports and identification documents of some nationalities have adopted "X" as a valid third category besides "M" (male) and "F" (female).[6]

Research in the late 20th century has led to a growing medical consensus that diverse intersex bodies are normal—if relatively rare—forms of human biology. Milton Diamond, one of the most outspoken experts on matters affecting intersex people, stresses the importance of care in the selection of language related to such people
snip---
The final body appearance does not always correspond with what is dictated by the genes. In other words, there is sometimes an incongruity between genetic (or chromosomal) and phenotypic (or physical appearance) sex. Citing medical research regarding other factors that influence sexual differentiation, the Intersex Society of North America challenges the XY sex-determination system's assumption that chromosomal sex is the determining factor of a person's "true" biological sex.

IMO, some things are mostly best left up to each respective individual to determine for themselves.

[badtoworse]

92. Definitely not.

[treestar]

103. I never understood why it has to be so or we get ripped that homosexuality is genetic

I recall reading something somewhere - if it is a choice, so what? People have the right to make that choice. What about bisexual people? Some kind of mixed gene? Anyone can choose either way, really. The person they are closest too maybe?

Masculinity is part social construct, arising out of being stronger physically, no longer needed since brute force becomes less and less needed. As one feminist writer said, men are stronger in the furniture moving sense (always loved that one). But I get sick of hearing how they are "hard wired" to do this or that which has nothing to do with strength and everything to do with domination of women in straight relationships. Condescending men need to get over it. We are professionals, Senators, and everything but furniture movers today.

[snot]

107. All identity is, in some substantial part, a social construct.

So there.

[Shankapotomus]

111. Being human is innate

The social behaviors we attach to our human template based on our gender or sexuality are flexible, open to our interpretation and susceptible to our errors.

[BainsBane]

113. So where is the OP?

If he is actually interested in this question, why create a thread only to disappear for seven hours or more?

[Iggo]

122. Taking a much-needed time-out from telling gay people they weren't born that way.

[Zorra]

138. It is one of the classic homophobic troll type posts for sure.

With a side dish of typical misunderstanding of a concept, in this case, gender.

[bluedigger]

123. I think he got locked out of his thread.

[BainsBane]

124. no, he wasn't

[bluedigger]

125. My mistake.

The other poster was so active I got confused and thought they were the OP.

[Democracyinkind]

126. Masculinity as in "having a dick"? No....

Masculinity as in "being a mysogonist"? Yes.

This is a critical distinction: Your question is only interesting, or problematic (or whatever feature you're aiming at here) if this distinction is disregarded.

[Dash87]

139. Not entirely, but a great deal of it is, imo.

[Uzair]

143. Of course not

Gender identity is determined by hormones, regardless of sex organs. It's all in the chemicals in the brain.

[ZombieHorde]

151. Yes and sort of yes and false premise.

Yes, masculinity is a social construct created by rhetoric.

Yes, homosexuality is innate, but I don't know if it's genes or what. This is just a lack of biological education on my part.

There is more to a person than just their rhetorically constructed self.

[sibelian]

186. I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense to me...

(apols for late response)

How can *anything* be innately attracted to something rhetorical?

What do you mean "false premise"? How is it false?

[ZombieHorde]

195. The attraction is to adult, male humans,

which is different than the rhetorical construct of men.

I view the premise as false because I interpret your OP as equating adult, male humans with the rhetorical construct of men and masculinity.

I hope that make my stance more clear. If not, please feel free to ask me to explain any point.

[LanternWaste]

153. I believe that being left-handed is innate.

I believe good handwriting (masculinity) is a social construct.

I believe that being left-handed (gay) is innate.

I believe that both are related to the other, but only one (handwriting/masculine, i.e., the imaginary) is wholly predicated on, and may not exist without the other (left-handed/gay, i.e. not imaginary).

(That's assuming the colloquial definition of "masculine&quot

[Rex]

156. Do you believe Democratic Underground is a social construct?

Do you think arguing is innate? Predicated by the topic?

[GiaGiovanni]

166. Did the OP just take off?

Sounds like someone downed a shot of Jack, and then did a hit and run.

[BainsBane]

168. Yep

He posted this well over 24 hours ago.

[Heidi]

171. Looks like the OP plonked this down in the punch bowl

and high-tailed it to avoid the back splash.

[sibelian]

179. Sorry, I totally forgot I posted it!

I was slightly drunk! I then went off for the weekend and it went out of my brain...

[alarimer]

169. Because they are two different things

Who you are sexually attracted to is innate, as far as science can tell.

Masculinity and femininity are both social constructs and vary with the society and time.

The reason we know this is that different societies have very different rules.

[Heidi]

170. Where did the OP go? (nt)

[sibelian]

184. I am here! Very late to the party I threw.

I am an extremely poor host...

(bows low...)

[Marr]

174. Masculinity and homosexuality are completely unrelated.

You seem to be implying that homosexual males are somehow less masculine.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

178. i think you have sex and gender confused

sex is not a social construct. its a biological construct

gender however is a social construct

[sibelian]

180. Where does "sex" stop

... and "gender" begin?

Why does the distinction exist?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

185. sex stops at biology and gender begins thereafter

i am sure both influence each other (sex influences gender, and gender influences what we find attractive and therefore the selection of particular traits. probably how women have gotten prettier through the ages).

men overall are more aggressive. however we all vary in aggressiveness within and between gender and between cultures. some cultures exaggerate the biological differences in aggressiveness and some downplay the difference, resulting in more or less aggressive men in these cultures (and women)