(Sweden) Court slashes sentence in 'honour killing' case (from 8 yrs to 4)

[The Straight Story]

Court slashes sentence in 'honour killing' case

A Swedish appeals court has reduced a lower court's eight-year prison sentence for a 17-year-old boy found of guilty fatally stabbing his sister more than 100 times after she fled a forced marriage in Iraq, in what the court referred to as an "honour killing".

In a ruling issued on Tuesday, the Malmö Court of Appeals (Hövrätten), upheld the teen's guilty verdict, but discarded the lower court's eight-year prison sentence.

The court instead sentenced the boy to four years in juvenile detention because he was 16 when he killed his sister.

As the boy was only days away from his 17th birthday at the time of the attack, the lower court had decided to punish him as a 17-year-old rather than as a 16-year-old, allowing for a longer prison sentence.

The appeals court verdict stated that had the the crime been committed by an adult, it would have warranted a sentence of life in prison.

http://www.thelocal.se/47758/20130507/#.UYmywEr4KSo

[Deep13]

1. Seems reasonable.

I'm surprised that Sweden still has a life in prison option for adults.

Don't forget, BTW that European prison terms tend to be substantially shorter than American sentences for similar crimes.

[Daniel537]

4. 4 yrs for murder is ok?

Shit, if that's your standard why have prisons at all? Lets let filth like this cut up women all day along.

[Deep13]

5. Why indeed?

1. This is a juvenile offender.

2. prisons create criminals. They don't prevent them. We have the highest incarceration rate on Earth and one of the worst violent crime rates. It doesn't work.

3. making this kid suffer won't bring the victim back to life. All punishment does is add the state's evil to the defendant's evil.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

6. Ridiculous

1. This juvenile killed a person. He did not shoplift or tag a building, where a slap on the wrist maybe tolerable.

2. This person is a criminal. A criminal that took the life away from his sister. If that is not worth incarceration, what crime is?

3. So you don't believe in any form of punishment? There should be no consequences for killing another human being?

Anyone convicted of honor killing (this should be considered a hate crime) should be executed.

[Deep13]

9. uh-huh

Why isn't it working then?

No prison sentence is a slap on the wrist.

"A criminal." You need to read Foucault. Dehumanizing people with labels does not change the argument at all.
This guy was conditioned to think honor killings are necessary. His murdered sister is the victim, of course, but the defendant is a victim too.

Again, it doesn't work. Prisons create violent criminals, it does not prevent them. Why is hurting those who do bad things a solution? Everyone assumes it does. We say they deserve it, but even if they do, so what? Why does that make it good policy.

So you're into killing people, even if the defendant was a juvenile. Are you sure you're on the right website?

[geek tragedy]

11. So says the person who thinks it's 'evil'

to put murderers in prison if they kill out of misogynistic reasons.

[Dorian Gray]

18. I'm sure his short sentence

will decondition him, and he'll be so grateful at Sweeden's leniency that he'll be a great member of society who would never honor kill another human being, ever, if the situation came up again.

Vile actions deserve real punishments.

[Yo_Mama]

42. Does he have other sisters?

If so, I wonder what their life spans will be? Well, maybe they learned their lesson.

I think the fact that the boy was conditioned to believe in honor killings makes a longer prison sentence more necessary in this case. Unlike many juvenile crimes, which are somewhat influenced by an immature brain, this one was influenced by a belief. It seems to me that getting a short prison term will reenforce this belief.

[Dorian Gray]

46. I agree completely

with you.

[LostOne4Ever]

53. How is "he" a victim?

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His murdered sister is the victim, of course, but the defendant is a victim too.

How in any way, is he a victim too? I agree we should not dehumanize, but I can see no way in which anyone could call him a "victim." He CHOSE to buy into his cultures conditioning. The girl, on the other hand, did not CHOOSE to die. Ultimately, is not the brother is responsible for his actions? Or does this mean we are going to start excusing people because of their religion/culture?

He murdered his sister. Even if there is no person alive to get justice for, we can not let such an action go unpunished? Letting him go would be society saying her life had no value.

One thing I think your post highlights is that we as a society don't have a coherent purpose behind our justice system. Is it about rehabilitation? Punishment? Justice? Are we trying to send a message? Is it about Deterrence/Crime prevention? Protecting society? Or a little from all the columns?

If its about rehabilitation is 4 years enough time? This adolescent has been conditioned by his culture for almost 17 years. Further, how can we be sure if he is just faking remorse? What if he fools his doctors into thinking he has been rehabilitated and only spends a short time in prison?

If its about punishment/justice then what does this punishment say about the value of that girl's life? Or the life of anyone in a similar situation? The punishment does not come close to the crime. I can only imagine the horror, pain and sorrow she felt as she was stabbed 100 times by her own brother. How can we call 4 years a proper punishment for that.

If its about the message what message does this send? That a young girls life is only worth a few years in prison? That if you belong to a certain religion/culture you wont pay the same price? That if you are a certain age you can get away with murder? That we don't care about girls in her position?

If its about deterrence then what is being deterred? If you are under a certain age you should go commit an honor killing you will only spend a few years in prison? Who is going to be deterred by this? If its about crime prevention or protecting society then wouldn't keeping him locked up be more likely to protect other family members or girls than allowing him to go free?

Even if we assume that the purpose of the justice system is all of them, I can't see how in anyway this punishment fits the crime.

Im against the death penalty, and feel that many times we are being too hard on people with jail terms, but this time I feel he should have gotten a harder punishment than what he got.

[geek tragedy]

10. It is not 'evil' to put a murderer in prison.

It is justice.

Your moral vocabulary is confused.

[Deep13]

39. Sorry, how many people have you prosecuted?

I did about 26 major felonies a year in the court of appeals for eight years.

One guy I prosecuted for burglary (no history of violence) several years ago was sentences to death for murder last week. He was never violent until after he got out of prison. Our system creates monsters and I just cannot support it anymore.

My moral vocabulary and thinking is crystal clear. An eye for an eye may be justice, but it is still evil.

[geek tragedy]

40. Again, your vocabulary is confused.

"An eye for an eye' would mean stabbing the perp to death, not putting him in prison.

The theory that putting people like Ariel Castro or Khalid Sheikh Muhammed or Geoffrey Portway

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/07/briton-dungeon-kidnap-eat-child

in prison are acts of evil is utterly incoherent and nonsensical.

Also, it's rather naive in that it ignores the necessity of deterrence. If rape and murder weren't punished severely . . .

[Honeycombe8]

49. "Prisons create criminals"? Seriously? The guy is already a murderer.

The criminal has been created already. And it wasn't prison that did it. It was his religion.

[cali]

56. He stabbed his sister a hundred times. By definition, that makes him a violent, sick

criminal.

You might give a teeny tiny thought to the suffering of the victim- if you can spare the time from your weepfest over her murdering blood drenched asshole brother.

[smirkymonkey]

73. +10.000

[galileoreloaded]

58. cut up people, not women. thats blatantly sexist. nt

[fujiyama]

12. In some ways I'm glad we are not Europe

I don't believe that murderers should get light sentences like 4-8 years as in this case, or just 20 or however many years as in the case of the Norwegian killer.

I know people will call this punitive and retributive, but those are partly the reasons we administer justice in the first place. I know I wouldn't want murderers walking around in my neighborhood and I don't want them in society. I suppose I just don't view deliberate murder as a crime which one can be rehabilitated from.

[Deep13]

38. Well, the idea is that a less violent punative system will...

...produce a less violence society. As a practical matter, there would be very few murders. Locking up some because he is truly dangerous is different from doing it for punishment.

[Honeycombe8]

50. Actually, no...the "idea" of prison is not to produce a less violent society.

The purpose of prison is to protect the public, and to dispense justice. If you can do that w/o making the murderer more violent than he ALREADY IS, that's great. But not necessary.

Here is a guy who thinks it is okay to take someone's life (in a painful and horrible way, BTW), if he thinks it's okay. Someone else is not entitled to his/her own life. HE controls that.

Justice dictates a life sentence, as far as I'm concerned. In the name of justice, and to protect society from such a person.

[Deep13]

52. People are not born murderers.

(At least hardly any are). Just like the gun control debate, the idea is to make people stop thinking of violence as a solution to problems.

And just what does justice mean if there is no way to restore the victim? Seems like a made-up concept to justify revenge.

[cali]

57. What does justice mean in this specific case? Allow me.

It means sending a strong message that the murder of women in honor killings will not be tolerated. 4 years hardly does that.

[jessie04]

59. I dont disagree with you...

but multiculturalism means understanding different cultures and religions have different standards that other people.

Multiculturalism must be understood in this context.

But i agree with you.

[Blue_Tires]

45. Well on the flipside, I'm not too keen on the

"15 years for robbing a gas station", and other instances of gross over-sentencing in the U.S.

[MrSlayer]

2. Ridiculous.

By doing this you legitimize this pathetic bullshit excuse for a religion. So many of these fundamentalists do not assimilate into the new culture, they drag their primitive, idiotic nonsense with them. Being soft on them is only going to encourage more of it. Only 8 years was outrageous in itself, 4 is ludicrous.

[fujiyama]

13. Good post.

You're spot on. This kind of light sentence basically legitimizes such barbarism and backwards assed thinking.

[Recovered Repug]

15. From the article, it seems that the courts ruling was based on age and nothing else.

The court instead sentenced the boy to four years in juvenile detention because he was 16 when he killed his sister.

As the boy was only days away from his 17th birthday at the time of the attack, the lower court had decided to punish him as a 17-year-old rather than as a 16-year-old, allowing for a longer prison sentence.

The appeals court verdict stated that had the the crime been committed by an adult, it would have warranted a sentence of life in prison.

[jessie04]

17. "this pathetic bullshit excuse for a religion"

wow.
I believe its wrong to think one culture is superior to another.

I mean, who are we to judge?

[leftynyc]

19. ANY religion that condones

murder for "honor" deserves no respect from anyone. When the imans forbid this type of murder, then I'll listen to what they have to say.

[jessie04]

24. He literally got away with murder.

literally.

[leftynyc]

25. Since he's not free

it's not "literally" but I see your point. He'll be out of jail before he could get a cocktail in the US.

[get the red out]

29. THIS

Cultural relativity is an accessory to murder.

[leftynyc]

35. I've never thought of it that way

but you're absolutely right.

[smirkymonkey]

47. +10.000

This absolutely disgusts me.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

26. I believe it's wrong not to think some cultures are superior to others.

If you don't believe that cultures that respect women's equality are superior to those that don't *in that specific respect*, you can't claim to support women's equality in any meaningful sense.

Ditto for gay rights, freedom of religion, and any other single issue, on each of which it's possible to say that one culture is superior to another in a specific respect.

And if one culture is superior to another in a great many respects, and only inferior in a few, it doesn't make sense not to view it as superior overall.

[NCTraveler]

33. I believe you are correct.

The family I have, and the culture I was raised in, is far superior to a culture where honor killings is acceptable. Even with my cultures flaws.

[jessie04]

36. So you're saying "Western culture"..

is superior to some other cultures including so-called "islamic cultures" by your standards??

[Donald Ian Rankin]

37. I think that's an overgeneralisation with a core of truth to it.

I think that nearly all Western cultures (plural) are superior to most but not all Islamic cultures (plural), and many Western cultures are superior to all Islamic cultures.

All but the furthest right of the furthest right of American Christian Republicans are more liberal than most of what are generally regarded as moderate Muslims.

[sabrina 1]

66. Our 'Christian Culture' is not much different to that of other fundie cultures. We, eg, are the only

so-called 'better, civilized' nation that believes in the old Biblical 'eye for an eye' revenge theory by allowing the State to kill, rather than an individual. A medieval concept which serves no purpose other than to exact revenge, and worse, we kill mostly the poor and minorities who cannot afford a defense. Many OTHER cultures view our 'justice' system as barbaric.

Then we have collected the biggest arsenal of deadly weapons in the history of the world AND we use them. We go around the world killing innocent people pretending it is for our 'national security'. Right here on this forum you will see people defending the killing of CHILDREN claiming we 'didn't mean to do it', as if we HAD to, and referring to those innocent people by the dehumanizing phrase 'collateral damage'. We claim that we are so much more important than human beings anywhere else in the world, that all we have to do in order to justify killing hundreds of thousands of them, is to claim to be afraid that someone is going to harm us.

Then we torture people and we actually have people, a whole LOT of people in this country who believe it is okay to torture human beings. AND we protect our torturers from prosecution.

With these beliefs you might expect that we would not be welcome in other countries, dragging these medieval concepts which we have proven our willingness to carry out, with us.

We are hardly in any position to criticize anyone's culture.

As to this decision re the honor killing, I abhor killing of all kinds especially when people are driven by 'patriotism' or 'religion' to do so.

But when we start punishing our Christian War Mongers and Torturers then we might have a right to point fingers elsewhere.

[geek tragedy]

41. How many people on this board wish our culture were more like that

found in Northwest Pakistan or Saudi Arabia?

Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?

Of course we think our culture is superior.

[MrSlayer]

48. You've got to be kidding me.

If your "religion" leads you to stab your sister a hundred times for no reason it's a bullshit religion that deserves ZERO respect. If you can't see that a culture that does not behave that way is superior to one that does then you have a serious problem.

The culture that frowns upon such idiocy is clearly superior. Clearly.

[smirkymonkey]

61. Thank YOU!

What a sick culture. He should be in prison for the rest of his miserable life.

[smirkymonkey]

74. Thank YOU!

[Pelican]

23. Correct...

Now there is a precedent.

Think your daughter is becoming to westernized? Get your teenage son to kill her. He'll be out in time for university.

Glad they thought this one through.

All this guy deserves is a bullet through the head and his body donated to a science facility.

[smirkymonkey]

60. +10.000

This is disgusting.

[smirkymonkey]

3. Disgusting. He should have been given a life sentence.

He is obviously a sociopath. He does not deserve to be let out in society ever again.

[rollin74]

7. absolutely sickening

4 years for murdering someone ???!!!!???!! over 100 stab wounds

4 fucking years?


That poor victim. Not only was she forced into a marriage that she didn't want but she is brutally murdered after she escapes.

Apparently, this young woman was married off to an older man and raped at the age of 15.

also from the article:

Representatives of the Malmö-based organization Tänk om, which works to stop honour crimes, told local media at the time that the woman had been in touch with them for one year since returning to Sweden and that she slept with a knife under her pillow for fear of reprisals over her escape.

They claimed local authorities had ignored their warnings that the woman was under threat and needed protection.

[get the red out]

31. But she was the family property

What was a good son to do?

I do not respect this and anyone who does has no respect for women, or human rights.

[Lunacee_2013]

8. I wonder how much time he would have gotten for regular murder...nt.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

27. This was regular murder.

As far as I can tell from the link (which is obviously only so far) the motivation was irrelevant, and the reason the sentence is so light is that he was legally a minor (16) at the time he committed it. I think the honour killing part may be a red herring, and the issue here is about sentencing teenagers at different ages.

[Lunacee_2013]

43. The article says he killed her for escaping a forced marriage.

Sounds like an honor killing to me. One of the attorneys even said she's happy the appeals court confirmed the honor aspect of the murder and the victim was apparently in contact with an organization that works to end the practice of honor killings.

Also, according to the article, he stabbed her over 100 times and he was just days away from his 17th b-day. I'm not a legal expert, but this sounds like an ultra violent crime that deserves more that just a few years in prison.

[RainDog]

14. Women should be able to apply for asylum

Any woman who is forced into a marriage should be able to be granted asylum in another nation and those who forced her into marriage should be put into jail as kidnappers.

She knew she was under threat of an honor killing by her relatives (and told authorities about and asked for protection from.)

Who told this teenager to kill her? That person should be tried as an accomplice to murder.

[leftynyc]

16. At a loss

Now these kinds of disgusting families will just get whoever is the youngest to commit the killings because they'll only get a light sentence. They should have given him 20 years and no possibility of parole - that sends a message.

[geek tragedy]

20. That's what they do normally.

Sweden just happened to reward the strategy.

[leftynyc]

21. Pretty vile

The message to young Muslim women is revolting. The court should be ashamed of themselves.

[geek tragedy]

22. Goes without saying that the thug should be

deported back to Iraq afterwards.

[kenny blankenship]

30. I expect rather that the court is congratulating itself today

on its multicultural sensitivity.

Europe has made a quickie deal for cheap labor that it will regret.

[get the red out]

32. you have that right

There is no respect for human rights in the outcome of this case, NONE.

[jessie04]

54. Sweden invited members of Islamic countries to move to Sweden.

there have been a few hardships.

[get the red out]

28. If Sweden considers a young man visciously killing his sister

Similar to a stupid drug offense here, then I would imagine that it would be a good idea for women in Sweden to be very wary of pissing off any male relative from here on out.

[Marrah_G]

34. 4 years.........

Well maybe in his 4 years of juvie, they can teach him that women are not slaves or farm animals.

[geek tragedy]

44. I would imagine cruelty to farm animals would draw a harsher sentence., nt

[DFW]

51. I reject the notion of an "honor killing."

There is no honor in killing, and certainly none in killing a sibling. The boy's culture may say there is, but the culture of Sweden says there isn't.

I don't care if he was "conditioned" by his parents or his relatives. The fact is that if he was living in Sweden, then he lives by their laws just as a Swede living in Iraq is obligated to live by Iraq's laws. I would have been for locking him up for as long as possible--as well as those relatives who talked him into his crime. To hell with what might become of him on the inside (and I'd give him better chances in Sweden than in Texas). It is unfair to expect and force Swedish society to tolerate what has become of him already.

[jessie04]

55. see

Muslim discrimination 'too common' in Sweden

http://www.thelocal.se/46618/20130308/

[smirkymonkey]

62. Oh please!

Cry me a river for these fucking murderous assholes.

[jessie04]

63. I guess no love and understanding.

I guess you're against multiculturalism too.

[smirkymonkey]

64. I am agaisnt light sentences for senseless murders.

That is all.

[etherealtruth]

65. I suppose you supported Apartheid in South Africa

... it was based upon cultural beliefs. Slavery in the US could also be defended using the rationale you have used in this thread.

"I guess you're against multiculturalism too." .... I guess you are against human rights

[smirkymonkey]

67. Give me a break here.

We are talking about murderers.

[etherealtruth]

68. Are you serious?

I refuse to accept "respect for cultural diversity" as an excuse for a single murder (actually the concept of "honor killings" is responsible for significantly more than a single murder) or to excuse mass murder and genocide.

As in the response to the poster (to which my response was directed) ... it is NOT a lack of respect for cultural diversity when one cites systemic human rights violations (be it a murder, murders ...).

Your response to my post doesn't make sense to me ... your argument with me appears to be that I do not believe that "cultural diversity" is an excuse to commit heinous acts ....?

[smirkymonkey]

69. I am not quite sure what you are saying.

I think this is wrong and that the sentence is too light. Does that make sense?

[etherealtruth]

70. I think we both are sickened by the sentence

Clearly we were both "typing' and not understanding what the other one was saying!

[smirkymonkey]

71. Ok. Sorry. All good I hope.

[etherealtruth]

72. Always good!