This is five year old thinking. A five year old cannot comprehend gun safety.

[nolabear]

This child is a normal, typical five year old boy. He does not recognize that things can remain constant in spite of appearing to be different. He would not understand the rules of gun safety. He does not know that things that die remain dead or that a toy rifle cannot magically turn into a real one, and vice versa. A five year old child should not under any circumstances be allowed to operate a firearm or be anywhere in the vicinity of a firearm that is not in the direct possession of a responsible adult or under lock and key.

[maxsolomon]

1. You're about to hear "but MY kid is different"

He was a-shootin at 2 and instructin' at 3, and we need to kill things in the country/mountains/real america every single day because we're living hand-to-mouth here, and regardless, AMERICA.

[loli phabay]

2. kids are different though, i dont trust my daughter in traffic but with horses no problem

I would trust her to find her way home the five miles from the school bus stop well before i would trust her to find her way ten blocks in a city. Just because one kid cant tie their shoelaces does not mean no kid can, it all comes down to the individual child.

[Tien1985]

6. Kids are different some ways

But there are developmental milestones that all children more or less hit at the same time. It's sort of like how aspirin doesn't work exactly the same for every person's body, but it works roughly the same for everyone.

A five year old does not have the mental ability to understand gun safety.

I know this will tick some people here off, but as a teacher, and a mandated reporter, if I hear of a child that age handling a gun and it sounds the least little bit fishy, DHS is going to hear about it. They can investigate and figure out if there is a serious threat to the child.

[loli phabay]

7. little bit fishy needs defining, i would also report if i heard a kid was carrying unsupervised

And i also have to report it when i hear or see it, but a kid shooting whilst supervised or hunting supervised is a different ballgame from leaving a five year old with easy access to a loaded gun.

[newmember]

35. We are talking about 5 year olds ,would you trust any 5 year old hunting even supervised?

There's plenty of adults that do stupid things hunting.
A 5 year old no matter how much you drill it in their head will not
fully understand a muzzle sweep while hunting.

[laundry_queen]

45. NO kidding.

I think back to my first archery class when I was a teen. Safety was fucking DRILLED into our heads. Yet, there were regularly 'violations' of the rules...even at 15 we had problems following strict orders for safety. And we had all kinds of adults around us. I can't even imagine guns and kids 10 years younger than what we were. Jeez. Even if you were RIGHT THERE...there are going to be issues.

[newmember]

64. Hard to believe this is even an argument here.

[nolabear]

9. I am a therapist and also mandated, and I would do the same.

A live child is first tier. And you and I know how dreadful having to make a report is so I don't say that lightly.

[magical thyme]

80. logical thinking does not develop before a certain age, around 7 IIRC

And emotional maturation also plays into events. How many adults never got over their sibling rivalry issues? A first-born 3 year old who suddenly has to share attention with the new baby hasn't necessarily gotten over it by age 5. Combine that with lack of understanding of permanence, and what's to stop the 5 year old who's ticked off that the 2 year old usurper is getting attention from pointing their little rifle when mom isn't looking and going bang?

That rifle didn't point itself at the 2 year old's chest, and didn't fire itself either. Either the 5 year old was average, meaning he lacked logic, understanding of permanence, and forgot the rule about never pointing the gun at a person ever, and was just playing. Or the 5 year old was precocious, did understand what he was doing, and did it on purpose. Take your pick; can't have it both ways.

The brain develops in stages that are pretty well understood. Variation means within well-defined ranges. Outliers are rare and to assume your child is the outlier is just plain foolish.

There's a reason why we don't allow driving on public roads before age 16, and then require a training period and testing.

[loli phabay]

81. for me the problem is unsupervised access to firearms, same as unsupervised access to the river

Or household chemicals or a box of matches. Its a parents duty to supervise but to also allow growth and learning. I believe its important for my kids to learn stuff that others may hate, but what service am i doing them if i stunt their learning to satisfy what others think is acceptable. The key though is to supervise your kids when they do stuff that has risks whether that is cooking, shooting, riding a horse or even hunting fungi in the woods.

[magical thyme]

82. exactly. nt

[EOTE]

84. And just how do you enforce that supervision?

You can't. So how about some common sense and have a minimum age for gun ownership? How about mandatory safety classes as well? You seem to understand that there's a problem, but just don't think anything can be done about that problem. It's called common sense.

[loli phabay]

89. there is already age limits on gun ownership, my daughter does not own her .22 i do

I let her practice with it under my supervision on our range, as to enforcing it thats easy, she has no access to the safe where the weapons are stored or access to ammo. If she wants to shoot she asks and i run the range for her, she is more supervised there than when people take their kids to the beach or even in their own homes. As many have said the problem is unsupervised kids whether thats with a gun, a box of matches or household chemicals.

[EOTE]

90. So your daughter doesn't own "HER" .22 . Are you listening to yourself?

By the very definition of the words used in your sentence, she DOES own it. There's a difference between being able to purchase something and being able to own it. The problem is with this practice being legal in the first place. My god, it's never the guns. The gun nuts in this country are literally insane if they think that these toddlers should have access to guns. It should be illegal. PERIOD.

[loli phabay]

91. legally she does not but in all sense she does, good luck getting laws passed to stop parents

Teaching their kids to shoot, enforce the existing laws on unsupervised access and you would have unanimous support but i dont think you have a chance of telling parents that they cant pass on their skills to their kids.

[EOTE]

92. That's exactly what law should be passed.

It's illegal for a parent to allow their child to drive, isn't it? Even when the parent is in the car? It's a shame that the gun nuts are too fucking stupid to see how dangerous they are. How statistically, they are one of the if not the most substantial threat to their childs' lives. Gun nuts always say to enforce existing laws, yet when those laws are enforced, they scream from the top of their lungs. They only want certain laws enforced. Then of course any time even the most common sense of gun control legislation is proposed, they flip out. Like any existing laws is going to help with the issue of infants and toddlers killing each other on a daily basis? Get real.

[loli phabay]

93. good luck with that. i think you will find more kids die from unsupervised drownings and falls

Than from supervised range time with mom and dad. I get it you dont like guns and dont want kids near them, but there are millions of families that shoot together and they get a say in this regardless of you or i may think.

[EOTE]

94. Just like those thousands of gun owners involved with homicide.

They get a say too, they get to continue murdering while the rest of the public just has to shut up about it, because we can't do a damned thing to make sure that guns stay out of the wrong hands. You and your ilk have had your way for a very long time, it's not going to continue to be that way much longer. The public is getting sick of it and the hubris of you nutters is going to catch up with you. The era of the NRA is coming to an end.

[loli phabay]

95. as i said good luck, until then i will continue hunting and teaching.

[blueamy66]

100. Do your kids know how to swim?

Can they swim in the ocean?

[loli phabay]

101. they can swim, her better than him though its mostly the river and ponds they swim in

[ProgressiveProfessor]

4. Actually I don't think you will hear anything like you claim, espcially not here at DU

The good news is that it is still early in the month and the DU hyperbole quota is still in good shape

[abelenkpe]

11. Somethings up with the time stamps on these posts

Maybe it's when they are when the post is started cause the very next post was someone claiming their kid was different.

Sigh

[maxsolomon]

97. I know, right?

[laundry_queen]

49. LOL, hyperbole happens. nt

[EOTE]

85. I see posts like that just about every day here at DU.

Perhaps you're just not looking at the right threads? Hell, it's even in THIS thread.

[maxsolomon]

96. did you read post #2?

It wasn't as hyperbolic as my parody, but it did claim that their child was different.

And it was the specific poster that inspired my comment in the 1st place. FTW.

[EOTE]

83. But my kid IS different.

She's about to turn 7, but I taught her multiplication and division when she was 5. She understands things like volume and mass and can talk intelligently about dinosaurs and extinct and endangered animals. She's brilliant and she cares about others. That being said, I wouldn't let her even come close to a gun. And with any luck, she'll have no desire to own one when she becomes an adult.

[ManiacJoe]

3. You got half of it correct.

A five year old child should not be anywhere in the vicinity of a firearm that is not in the direct possession of a responsible adult or under lock and key.
You got that part right. Proper storage of firearms is a must for all owners.

A five year old child should not under any circumstances be allowed to operate a firearm.
The better statement is:
A five year old child should not under any circumstances be allowed to operate a firearm without direct and close adult supervision.

He would not understand the rules of gun safety.
Thus the need for the close adult supervision to prevent any safety problems.

[nolabear]

8. My concern would be the same as letting him put a fork in a socket as long as the power is off.

At his stage of development, it is far, far more prudent and safe to simply say "You must not put a fork in the plug."

Later, when he can generalize, which he cannot reliably at five, then in spite of my strong dislike of guns I can agree that he is likely to understand that circumstances change and just because the power is off now doesn't mean it is always off in that socket, or when you wear your blue shirt, or that it's not just this fork but all forks.

[ManiacJoe]

14. Smart thing regarding forks and electricity.

You should try to explain how this applies to supervised gun shooting.

[nolabear]

23. Okay. I'll try again.

A five year old boy's mind does not follow logic in the same way an adult's does.

Dad takes Jimmy to the gun range and shows him how to shoot Dad's gun. He says "It's safe and fun and interesting to do this with me but don't ever touch a gun unless I am with you and am showing you how." Jimmy says he understands.

Jimmy is at Johnny's house and Johnny says "My dad's gun is in here. Want to see?" Jimmy says "My dad lets me shoot his gun." Johnny says "Well you can't shoot THIS gun." Jimmy, as with "there is more liquid when it is in the tall beaker but I cannot tell you why", may well believe that his dad wasn't talking about THIS gun (or THIS plug or THIS fork) because he very likely is incapable of thinking that way. Add to that the fact that he very much wants to succeed at doing it and remembering Dad's injunction is extremely hard. It's actually considerably more convoluted than that. If you've ever tried to play a game with a five year old, you realize that the idea of fixed and constant rules is almost ungraspable. They are notoriously poor sports, because their attention isn't long, they're convinced they're winning simply because the desire to win is so strong, and that desire to have what they want is so strong it supersedes the ability to only win by obeying a fixed set of rules successfully.

This begins to change around age seven, and often seven year olds are obsessed with EVERYONE obeying the rules because they are so caught up with this new capacity and its importance.

[AtheistCrusader]

41. At no point should your hypothetical children be exposed to an unsecured gun.

This is entirely independent and separate from the question of whether a 5 year old can fire a gun with close adult supervision.

I fired a .22 long rifle at age 6. No big deal.

[ManiacJoe]

42. Exactly right.

[freshwest]

56. Speaking of proportions. A child can be easily tricked with coins by what they percieve as bigger.

A child can be conned out of a dime by someone offering them a penny or nickel because it's smaller. The can be conned out of dollar bill because if offered a couple of coins, they think they are getting more.

In respect to perspective when viewing an object, they believe the same object, much as the adorable child in the video who was quite good at speaking, that an object closer is larger when in fact it may not be. There are even instances with children who do not percieve themselves as being large because they may be afraid of children smaller than they are.

Perception can be seriously skewed through emotion or their lack of experience. That experience may be learned easily or the hard way.

They are not mature enough to handle a gun. For example, I posted a picture of a laughing female 'mother' who has given her baby a gun to teeth on. A real gun, quite large.

She thinks it's funny, but does not have the sense to realize what that implies, nor does the child. One mishandling of the 'toy' real gun, and the baby's dead.

We have a lot of adults who don't take the lethality of guns seriously. Why do we expect children to do so?

[MattBaggins]

16. A five year old should not ever operate a firearm

[ManiacJoe]

18. Feel free to explain the reasoning behind your blanket statement.

[MattBaggins]

21. Same reasons they can not

Imbibe alcohol or tobacco.

Operate heavy machinery or drive cars or use chainsaws.

derp

[ManiacJoe]

46. Obviously not.

> Operate heavy machinery or drive cars or use chainsaws.

5 year olds are not physically capable of such things.

Some 5's are capable of aiming and shooting small guns under close adult supervision, some are not.

Please do not confuse "aiming and shooting small guns under close adult supervision" with "playing with" or "running around with" as others have already done.

[snooper2]

88. There is no good fucking reason a 5 year old should ever fire a gun

Maybe around 9 or 10 but never 5...

(Oh, I grew up backwoods country FYI with all our neighbors and farms and guns)


It seems the kids in the valley started handling guns around the same time we were trusted with a tractor, which was still before I was ever let near a chainsaw

[newmember]

26. Same reason they shouldn't operate a wood chipper

[morningfog]

29. Why would any listen to a maniac.

Your corrections are maniac ramblings. I would never trust you with a child.

[ManiacJoe]

50. Thanks for the laugh!

Made my day!

[Tien1985]

5. Whole heartedly agree with you. Nt

[hack89]

10. Which is why you wait until they are 9 or 10. nt

[morningfog]

30. Get them humping that gun as early as possible!

[hack89]

66. Why do you have to be so offensive?

we are talking about my kids here. Isn't there a more adult and mature way to express your displeasure?

[morningfog]

67. Because I am sick of this shit.

And no. This is how I will choose to deal with obstructionist gun nuts. Welcome to the 21 st century.

[hack89]

68. That is fine I guess - the NRA appreciates your support

You have to choose between constructive dialog to fix a problem or scoring cheap internet debating points. It is clear what your choice is.

It just puzzles me why you think this tone will get you what you want when it comes to gun control. In the real world you sometimes have to work with people you don't like to accomplish things. All you are doing is marginalizing yourself - you make it easy for gun owners to simply ignore you.

[morningfog]

69. We tried working with your kind, it doesn't work.

Fuck the NRA and all their supporters and apologists. We need to cleanse the Democratic Party of those beholden to the gun nuts. If that means pushing gun nuts out of the party, I am fine with that. Cleaning up the RW bullshit on DU seems like a fine place to start. The times are changing. I'd rather not see another generation live with the stupidity that is US gun culture. Your side really makes this country suck.

[pipoman]

71. By all means..

the Democratic party has voters to spare..lets kick the fucking Christians out too..fuckers..we don't need'em..after that we can kick out 1%ers and they can take their money with them...what a load of swill..You do know that 40% of Democrats own firearms and about half of them use them regularly for recreational activities...FFS, do you really want thugs in the whitehouse and controlling both houses from now on? Yeah? Then just keep alienating those you disagree with...could be the stupidest statements I've read in months hereabouts..

[hack89]

73. Purity purges. Got to love them.

2014 is going to be hard for you as the Democratic party runs pro-gun candidates in several Senate races.

[hack89]

74. "I have said consistently that I believe that the Second Amendment is an individual right."

Barack Obama.

[maxsolomon]

98. "that includes pre-schoolers"

Last edited Fri May 3, 2013, 01:43 PM - Edit history (1)

because 2nd amendment!

[hack89]

99. Did you leave out a word? nt

[aikoaiko]

12. I generally agree, but it is amazing what kids can do.

[ManiacJoe]

15. Impressive. Well above average for his age.

Bummer about that last target.

[newmember]

22. That's an accident waiting to happen

[Bay Boy]

33. I agree...

...I would never let a child of that age participate in that.

[nolabear]

25. I don't get an image on your post. Can't tell what you're referring to.

[aikoaiko]

27. Its a video of a 5 year old in a practical shooting competition

Its entitled "Little Kid in Shooting Competition" on youtube.

I think his name is Miko Andreas. Here is another video in case this one shows up:

[nolabear]

36. I see this one. My point remains though. I wouldn't trust him to think like an adult.

[aikoaiko]

44. I wouldn't either.

[newmember]

38. Watch how he cleared that pistol the last 5 seconds of the video

[aikoaiko]

48. Yep he dropped the mag and cleared the chamber

That's what I would do.

[newmember]

51. watch again

[aikoaiko]

53. What am I missing?

[newmember]

55. Look at where he grabbed the front of the slide with a chambered round

[aikoaiko]

57. Yes he is close to the muzzle but he's not covering it

He's pinching where the front serrations would be on my 1911.

As long as he's not covering the muzzle he's fine. Plus his finger is off the trigger.

[newmember]

58. I know what he's doing and you don't clear a pistol with half of your hand over the muzzle.

I don't care if his finger is not on the trigger.

[aikoaiko]

59. I don't think it is over the muzzle.

You may see it differently

[newmember]

62. exactly 1:18

If I could freeze frame I would ?

[W T F]

39. Under something called ADULT SUPERVISION, but That doen't work either....Watch

[link:

|

[aikoaiko]

52. I'm aware of that sad case.

Because it was full auto the supervisor should have had his hand on the pistol.

[newmember]

63. The worst part of it all was the father thought it was fun and

was capturing it on video. I said before I think the wrong person was on trial.

[laundry_queen]

54. Yep.

Even if you're RIGHT THERE, sometimes it takes a second of attention lapse and the child is shooting themselves, or someone else...kids have zero attention span, and as mentioned above, no real understanding of the consequences.

that poor kid

[loli phabay]

72. this is bad adult supervision same as the adult who leaves kids in aa car on a hot day

Or pans of boiling water on the stove where kids have access. Regardless of the situation there will always be bad examples of adult supervision, it does not mean that all interactions are the same and if we believed it we would never let our kids enter any water as a kid drowned one time.

[W T F]

43. One more thing I would like to add is, the context of your argument is that some 5 year olds can...

handle a firearm safely. While I don't dispute it, I would like to point out that some people can text and drive safely too. But we make it illegal to prevent the ones who can't, in order to save lives.

[newmember]

47. I dispute it, no 5 year old can

[morningfog]

31. They just need one fucking idiot adult enabler!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

13. A 5 year old could be confused as to WHY someone wants the right to bear arms...

[maindawg]

17. the issue is legal

at what age is a person legally eligible to own a fire arm ?
Is there no age limit ? There should be one.
That this company markets weapons to minor children is beyond what I can comprehend.
I am reminded of a saturday night sketch featuring Dan Akroid hawking bags of glass as a Halloween costume.

[mercymechap]

20. Gun manufactures will sell their guns

to anyone (remember the legislation the NRA helped Louisiana pass that allows felons to buy weapons). They are interested in making money, and by having the NRA scare the wits out of gun enthusiasts, gun manufacturers are able to increase their sales.
Try to get the gun nuts to recognize that!

[Bay Boy]

34. You've lost all credibility...

...in the SNL skit you reference it was bags of glass for Christmas, not Halloween!

[loli phabay]

75. technically my daughter does not own her rifle i do, she just has use of it on our range

Its already illegal for her to have access to it unsupervised and for it not to be secured.

[aikoaiko]

76. Yes there are legal limits.

Someone must be 18 to purchase a rifle and 21 to purchase a handgun from an dealer (18 used in some states).
In many states, possession under some age (16 for example) is prohibited unless directly supervised.

I was 10 when scouting first had us work with 22lr rifles and 15 before shotguns and higher-powered rifles (e.g., 30-06).

Youth rifles are generally marketed to the adults who shoot to buy for their kids and not via children's media.

[mercymechap]

19. Thank you for such an excellent illustration

of how a 5 year old thinks. But try and get conservatives to accept that. No person in their right mind would buy a real rifle and give it to their 5 year old (actually they gave it to him when he was 4), and then load it and leave in within reach of the 5 year old and the 2 year old. That is insane, and I suppose these are what are called "responsible" gun owners by the rest of the gun nuts.

[Uzair]

24. Flabbergasting that this even has to be said

Think about how absolutely vile and sick the gun culture is that this thread even has to exist. You'd think this would be a "no shit, Sherlock" type of thing.

[LiberalElite]

28. This latest firearm atrocity reminded me of my childhood -

i had joked in some comments elsewhere about maybe some day there'd be "Baby's First Colt .45". I didn't know such a thing as the Cricket existed. There is no way in Hell a child needs to have a real firearm.

I hadn't had a reason to remember this before for all these years - when I was a kid in the '50s we played with cap guns. Just a toy gun that made a noise and smelled of gunpowder after pulling the trigger. I googled "cap guns" and found this: http://www.nicholscapguns.com/about.htm

[loli phabay]

70. big difference is that you used cap guns firing them off willy nilly, my daughter fires one round at

A time at her target, she does not think that firing any gun at everything and everybody is cool, she sees her getting better at hitting the target as cool and the mechanics of what she is doing. As soon as she places a round in the breech and charges her rifle she focuses on putting the round on target rather than running around simulating shooting a real gun at everything. I much prefer the lesson and discipline she is learning than thinking that popping off caps willy nilly.

[HockeyMom]

77. I liked stepping on the paper caps

and making them pop the same way. I thought it was far more fun. The BOYS would yell at me for doing that. I suppose I was more "creative" than they were, and not interested in the gun aspect. See? It works by stepping on it too!!!

[loli phabay]

79. and yet the boys learned to shoot each other with no consequence, whereas my daughter learns

That guns do damage and have consequences. Also she is learning discipline and skills that will serve her in the future, same reasons that she rides, swims, plants a garden, is learning how to make a fire and others skills in addition to learning to read and speak the languages of her people. As her contemporaries learn about my little pony etc.

[elleng]

32. Piaget knows,

and I hope others do too.
Thanks

[W T F]

37. If he thinks the same way when he grows up, He'll make a fine Republican :-)

[newmember]

40. .

[rocktivity]

60. And now for something completely different

rocktivity

[rocktivity]

61. In a similar vein, here's someone who isn't old enough to comprehend

Last edited Thu Oct 10, 2019, 10:59 AM - Edit history (8)

being able to hear someone you love without seeing them.

rocktivity

[JI7]

65. that's one of the cutest babies i have seen

[nolabear]

87. Oh man, who could want more than to have someone that happy to see you?

Beautiful boy. And see how close laughing and crying are. Babies can't control their emotions yet, so his delight has a big element of anxiety in it, in addition to wanting to be picked up. Takes a long time to be able to think in addition to feeling, and to let those thoughts ameliorate the emotions. It's one of the biggest jobs of parenting, to do that wonderful dance of controlling just the right amount of the environment and your own feelings so you don't either endanger your little ones or stunt them. Fortunately most of us just have natural talent and good enough parents ourselves so we do it pretty well. And then there's sheer luck.

[earthside]

78. Radical gun extremists--that's all this exposes

There just isn't any way around it in my estimation: letting a five year old shoot a gun even under 'strict' adult supervision is reckless, irresponsible, dangerous, abusive, and negligent.

An adult/parent would have to be deep, deep inside a certain kind of unreality to have some kind of notion that a five year old has an sense or conception of the lethality of the instrument they are operating.

As an analogy, what kind of parent/guardian would let a five year old operate even a scaled-down real chainsaw? There is an unpredictability with use of a chainsaw that a small child isn't even physically able to control -- a gun has the same potential for unpredictability by its very nature. If we saw a neighbor letting their little five year old girl using a small chainsaw on a block of wood, even with the mom behind her and holding her arms, we would be appalled and consider that action child endangerment.

But a gun is degrees worse because kids that age play at games using weapons -- as the video demonstrates, they simply cannot fully comprehend the differences between real and imaginative.

So, it seems to me what we have witnessed with this latest incident is the depths of extremism and the perverseness of the gun culture that promotes child gun use and then uses that as a platform to further promote their so-called Second Amendment mania.

[Tikki]

86. Especially if they watch their parents or older children constantly handling a weapon.

They see older others do things that they are told not to do but it appears to these 5 year olds
that there are no bad consequences for those actions.
The 5 year old brain is striving for inclusion and approval.

This is criminal negligence on the part of the parents...plain and simple.


Tikki