In case people wonder why AZ has a water problem...

[Gravitycollapse]

Phoenix is a completely unsustainable city hovering on the brink of disaster. Estimates give us until the year 2016 before we will actually need to start publicly rationing water. But, until then, full steam ahead, am I right?

I give you a gigantic grass field that serves no particular purpose at ASU West campus. ASU is supposedly the most sustainable university in the country; we are one of the few universities offering undergraduate degrees in sustainability.



This is merely a reflection of the greater issue in the Valley of the Sun. Suburban sprawl and the proliferation of non-native, water-demanding landscaping has led to a massive increase in water consumption. Our current level of water usage is completely untenable.

We are quite literally the least sustainable city on the planet. Even after 15+ years of drought, Phoenicians still don't get it.

[Bennyboy]

1. Now, if they took that space, and ones like it

and grew food, now that would be something. Less chemicals. the staff hours about the same, (grass is highly maintained to look like that) and tehy could serve fresh stuff at the school.

the truth is, that patch of grass probably takes over a milllion gallons of water every year. OR MORE.

[Gravitycollapse]

3. Growing food is still incredibly water intensive. We need to let it be desert landscape.

[kardonb]

28. xeriscape

is all very good and all ( we have it ) , but grass helps to cool the air , especially when we have about 3 mo. of + 100 degree temps every year . There is always a trade-off . One solution would be not to build new communities here ( fat chance ) , because people move here for the wonderful winter weather we have .

[Gravitycollapse]

29. Trying to offset the heat island with grass is not a reasonable solution.

We live in a desert. It functions best when not paved over with asphalt and concrete. You can't buy out that need with some grass lawns. That in fact only makes the water consumption problem worse.

[CreekDog]

39. it certainly isn't cooling the air in Phoenix.

the average nighttime and daytime temperatures in Phoenix have been steadily increasing for decades now.

[Scootaloo]

77. It cools the air through WATER LOSS.

Seriously, that's what it is, the plants producing water vapor as part of respiration cools the air around them, just as sweating cools down a person. That water vapor gets sucked into the Arizona sky and from there, goes who-knows-where. probably not back to Arizona.

[Jackpine Radical]

156. If only Arizona had more water, it would be Heaven.

Of course, the same can be said of Hell.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. I hope someone in a position of responsibility is taking a hard look at this problem.

Otherwise, the city is in for a very unpleasant surprise when the water runs out.

[quakerboy]

31. Naw

They'll just find somewhere else to take the water from.

[former9thward]

55. You mean like what southern CA does?

[Common Sense Party]

62. Yes. From Utah.

[quakerboy]

68. Probably

Do they have enough?

I Imagine its only a matter of time until LA and Phoenix are getting direct water pipelines from Oregon, Washington, Idaho, etc.

[Common Sense Party]

69. No, Utah definitely does not have enough, as we are a desert state, too.

But there are discussions taking place to siphon water from Lake Powell in southern Utah and send it to AZ and/or CA.

[truebluegreen]

143. Colorado River water is already over-alloted

and Lake Powell loses something like a million and a half acre-feet of water every year to evaporation. I am not sure of the current status in the watershed, but inflow right now is 54% of normal, and the level of the lake is 100 ft below full. A year or two ago the level was so low rock formations not seen since the lake has existed were accessible.

I wouldn't look to Powell or Colorado River flows to fix Phoenix or LA. Certainly not in the long term.

[truebluegreen]

142. Eastern Oregon, eastern Washington and Idaho don't have any water to spare

and it's laughable to think they would spare any if they could. Them's fightin' words.

[quakerboy]

161. Do you think they have the political power to fight Arizona?

Water is/will be a big fight. I don't know who wins it in the near term or the far term, but I never discount the propensity for our body politic to come up with horrible solutions to idiotic problems.

[truebluegreen]

162. They have 3 times as many Senators as Arizona, all more interested in CYA and re-election

than in anything that might be considered the public good, even if that case could be made. Idaho is dead-set against giving "their" water to the states downstream (who will eventually get it anyway) for increased salmon runs, do you think they care a rip about a bunch of sissy city folk dumb enough to live in the middle of a desert?* Not on your nelly.

And then of course there is the expense in, say, re-routing the Snake River, or even part of it. In this era of Austerity and Can't-Do Politics? Hah. Especially when far too many politicians and citizens would consider the heat and the drought a Temporary Inconvenience.


*I'm sure it will escape their notice that they also live in the middle of a desert...

[quakerboy]

163. Im not saying public good

Im saying back room deals and money. Im pretty sure most senators respond to money far quicker than public good. Odd things happen in those back rooms...

That said.. Its high plains, not desert. Totally different.

[truebluegreen]

164. At 8" or less of rainfall per year, I'd call it a high desert. A sagebrush sea....

Last edited Thu May 9, 2013, 09:51 AM - Edit history (1)

And while I agree with you about money and backroom deals, this would be far too big and long-term a project to sneak around with...they would have to get public opinion on their side and it would be totally against it. Farmers, sportsmen, environmentalists, fishermen, industry and just plain xenophobes...everybody.

Trust me on this, I was a resident of the area for many years.

Edited to add: This may be the only issue on which all the residents of the area would agree

[Art_from_Ark]

166. The geographical definition of desert is "less than 10 inches of annual precipitation",

so you are correct, 8 inches/year is officially desert.

[truebluegreen]

168. Ah! Thank you for that...

I always thought/considered it so, but didn't know the official definition.

Thanks again.

[pennylane100]

36. The only officials I know of in Arizona

are Brewer, the idiot governor, John McCain, the idiot senator and Arpaio, the bat shit crazy sheriff. If these are typical of the people with responsibility in the State, it does not look good for the poor people that live there.

[lonestarnot]

115. How could you forget the dopey flake. What an embarrassment that prick is.

[dbackjon]

42. There isn't a problem

Under Bruce Babbitt back in the 80's, Arizona passed some of the most progressive water laws in the US.

This is an alarmist OP with no basis in reality.

[Matariki]

82. Your assertions contradict almost all information on the problem. Please provide some substance.

[dbackjon]

84. Others have given good links

In this thread.

And to say that Babbitt was not progressive is ludicris.

[Gravitycollapse]

96. I'm going to mark you down as having no evidence to support your claim.

[dbackjon]

149. Have you provided any evidence?

Why should I relink to articles that others have already linked to that totally refute your lies?

You have been schooled on this thread, just either too dumb to realize it, or too proud to admit it.

[Coyotl]

4. Golf course capital of the world too!

[Gravitycollapse]

6. Yeah, I'm ashamed to say I enjoy the sport.

Never play it anymore though.

[ChazII]

40. Reclaimed water helps

with with keeping the grass green on the golf course. Of course the desert landscaped courses would be the best for the Phoenix and Tucson areas.

http://phoenix.gov/greenphoenix/sustainability/summary/water.html

[KamaAina]

61. A golf course in AZ should be one giant sand trap

interrupted by a handful of fairways and greens.

Similarly, in La., one large water hazard, with island fairways and greens.

[Blue_Tires]

51. +1

[alittlelark]

5. Grass is a green desert. The thirstiest of landscaping by far.

It needs to be all but eradicated in the Southwest, and most of the rest of the country as well.

The amt of water, pesticide and artificial fertilizers used to create it is obscene.


(PS- Currently studying Landscape Architecture and Horticulture)

[CreekDog]

13. Xeriscaping would be better unless the use is for sports or recreation, however...

most grass in Phoenix, for anybody whose spent much time there is a different species than grass in other parts of the country.

i think people get the impression that grass in Phoenix is lush, thick turf like you see in Seattle or New England, but it's not. usually it's a type of Bermuda grass which uses a lot, lot less water and is not very thick and which has relatively thin leaves and even some spikes.

for what it's worth, Tucson golf courses often only maintain grass right around the holes --that's one way they work around it.

additionally, there is a groundwater mining law in Arizona which requires developers to prove that they have water for the development for 100 years. to prove that they often promise xeriscaped developments, smaller yards, etc.

so while Phoenix used to have acres and acres of thirsty lawns and fountains decades ago, it has changed a great deal and not only is xeriscaping happening in Phoenix, it's quite popular and many have switched over to it, new developments and projects use it quite a bit.

[Gravitycollapse]

18. 100 year plan = corporate bullshit.

There is no 100 year plan. At least, nothing meaningful. The water table in Arizona has already plummeted. Any soothing arguments made by the mining affiliates should be seen as propaganda.

This state is running dry. We are straining the reservoirs to the point where places like Lake Mead and Lake Powell have fallen to within a few feet of rationing triggers.

[dbackjon]

43. Your post is so full of errors

The water levels in Powell and Mead are due to drought elsewhere. Phoenix doesnt depend on the Colorado River for water, unlike LA

[NickB79]

56. Phoenix gets 36% of their water from the Colorado

http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/stories/hydrating-phoenix-quenching-a-city-in-the-desert

Phoenix currently gets its water from several sources: the Colorado River (36 percent), the Salt River (54 percent), groundwater (3 percent) and reclaimed water (7 percent).

[dbackjon]

63. From your link

Gordon shakes his head. "Phoenix is using less water today than we were a decade ago and less per capita than we were two decades ago," he says. He recognizes that the huge growth in his city did strain the infrastructure, however — pushing out agriculture, causing low water pressure, and forcing city officials to retrofit homes and buildings with conservation mechanisms.



So how could it be possible that a million additional people use less water than their late-'90s predecessors? Can the "mellow yellow" flushing mantra, requests to only do laundry at night and demands for "xeriscaping" really make that much of a difference? Evidently, yes.



According to the city's Water Resource Plan, individual and business conservation efforts made for a 20 percent reduction in water use since 1980. Everything from leveling agricultural fields with lasers — on an angle to collect runoff — to developing an EnergyStar-like rating for consumer appliances that conserve water has made for a conscious community respecting its water supply. Gordon says "other cities are just now piloting such programs. Phoenix has been utilizing 'green and sustainable' practices for decades."

So much for the OP Chicken Little scare mongering


Phoenix gets Colorado River Water - but doesn't depend on it. A lot of it is pumped underground to replenish aquifers. We are banking for the future.

[alittlelark]

113. ..... keep believing that

if it's what you need to do.

[HiPointDem]

35. I have a lawn. I never water it, never use chemicals. It dries up in the summer and comes back

in the winter & spring.

The great plains were wall to wall grass. it's perfectly sustainable. maybe not in phoenix, because that's not its environment, but grass per se is not 'unsustainable'. and its not a 'green desert,' either.

[JDPriestly]

140. In the Southwest, it's very different.

Took me a long time to see the beauty in succulents. I just couldn't see it. They were just ugly to me. I've grown to love them. San Diego has a great botanical garden with a wonderful succulent section. Still, I miss peonies and the lilacs that smell really strong. We have lilacs but the don't smell really strong, and our tulips only last maybe a year. It's a different climate and we have to accept and learn to love different plants to some extent.

I wouldn't trade my avocado trees for anything. And you can't grow them in the midwest, although apple trees in L.A. I don't know whether I have seen any. I guess they exist. We do have figs and apricots. Vive la difference.

[truebluegreen]

144. The Great Plains were wall to wall grass

with roots that sank DEEP into the topsoil, which was also deep. Those conditions don't pertain anymore, and they certainly don't occur in Phoenix. Also, the green-ness was a brief period in the spring in the short-grass prairie to the west, and lengthened as you traveled into areas of more summer rainfall, culminating with the tall grass prairie on the eastern plains.

[HiPointDem]

152. and you've just made my point. grasses are plants designed to survive low rainfall & drought.

they hold soil and are not 'unsustainable'.

it is people's practices which are unsustainable.

[truebluegreen]

157. Native grasses are so designed, but they won't look like lawns

unless or even if you water the crap out of them. Many of them are bunch grasses.

Lawn grasses in general are a disaster.

[HiPointDem]

159. depends on where you live & what kind of grass. plenty of places where grass works just fine

without any watering at all.

kentucky bluegrass is one of the common 'thirsty' lawn seeds. it's *native* to:

"practically all of Europe, northern Asia and the mountains of Algeria and Morocco."

the right grass for its environment, and not unsustainable.

[TheMadMonk]

38. Single largest crop in the US. /nt

[d_r]

59. I wish you could eradicate it

from my hillside yard in Tennessee. The stuff grows so fast it is going to kill me one day mowing it. Maybe not eradicate it but at least slow it down!

I once heard a botonist say that the history of the world was one of a great war between the trees and the grasses, and all of us animals have just been unwitting participants used by one side or the other.

[NutmegYankee]

88. My grass thrives just fine w/o water or fertilizer.

What would replace it?

[Gravitycollapse]

108. It probably helps that you live in Virginia.

[NutmegYankee]

109. I don't live in Virginia. Try the Nutmeg state...

[Gravitycollapse]

110. Ah, sorry. It probably helps that you live in Connecticut.

[NutmegYankee]

111. And that would be true.

The point I wanted to make is that dumping nitrogen makes it greener, but it grows fine even in the rocky nutrient poor soils of Connecticut. Most of the East can sustain grass without watering it.

And without grass to create yards or meadows, the only other choice is forest. Really really dense shrubby forest.

[truebluegreen]

145. Connecticut, right?

Grass is suited to your climate.

[alittlelark]

136. Gonna 'reply to all' here....

If you have grass growing as a noxious weed find a neighbor w/goats... they are likely w/in a mile. If your grass grows w/o water or chemicals..... YAY !!!

If you live in an area where you need to water that 'green desert' or smother it with pesticides and fertilizers....... STOP. Seriously. STOP.

Grass is great for livestock and bad for US.

[truebluegreen]

146. +1000 n/t

[littlemissmartypants]

7. Dryland farming. eom

[thelordofhell]

8. Atlanta is in worse shape

Texas also

[dbackjon]

44. And most of California

[NYC_SKP]

9. K/R.

But I'd argue that Las Vegas might give you competition re least sustainable city.

[progressoid]

10. Bit of a canary in a coal mine

Water shortages are going to hit a lot of the world.

But like many problems, we would rather be reactionary than proactive.

[KittyWampus]

11. Sorry, I think Las Vegas takes the "least sustainable" prize.

[Gravitycollapse]

12. Las Vegas learned how not to run a city from Phoenix.

[dbackjon]

45. LV has a water problem. Phoenix does not

Why are you spreading out and out LIES?

[Gravitycollapse]

94. I'm going to mark you down as being part of the problem.

[dbackjon]

150. And you are marked down as someone that spreads irrational fear

With nothing to back it up

[Mosby]

14. that's completely wrong, az and phx don't have a water problem

Farmers use most of the water in az.

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special26/articles/0103conserve-main03.html

And phx has a 100 year water plan.

http://m.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/stories/hydrating-phoenix-quenching-a-city-in-the-desert

[Gravitycollapse]

17. Wow, wasn't expecting propaganda in this thread.

A. Do not confuse my disdain for suburban sprawl with my inability to recognize that desert farming contributes to our water problems. In fact, if you go up thread you will notice I advocate against farming here. Although the share of farming in this state is continuously decreasing as more farm land is being bought up by corporate home builders.

B. There is no 100 year plan. That figure is entirely made up. Nice try though.

http://grist.org/climate-energy/the-least-sustainable-city-phoenix-as-a-harbinger-for-our-hot-future/

[Mosby]

20. that article is pretty thin on evidence

Mostly just a string of unsupported opinions.

At least the author points out the neighborhoods with grass, trees and shrubs are cooler than xeriscaped areas, which ends up saving the residents in the green areas a ton of money for electric bills.

Farmers use an obscene amount of water to grow shit like tomatos and melons, that water can be converted to residential and commercial use in the future.

[Gravitycollapse]

25. Do you have a bit of evidence that xeriscaping has had any effect on the heat island?

Or is this simply wishful thinking?

Wishful thinking is the core value of the "sustainability" movement in Phoenix. It revolves constantly around bourgeoisie self-congratulating. The development of sustainable technology does not guarantee its effective implementation.

[dbackjon]

23. You really have no clue what you are talkin about

Arizona led by Bruce Babbitt passed the most progressive water laws in the nation

[Gravitycollapse]

26. Are you joking? Bruce Babbitt helped doom this state.

Progressive water laws, my ass.

[Dreamer Tatum]

37. You ARE aware that Phoenix sits on an AQUIFER, yes?

probably not.

[dbackjon]

48. This seals it - you are just a troll.

[Gravitycollapse]

95. Do you not realize the irony of your posts in here?

[dbackjon]

46. The only one spreading lies and propoganda in this thread

Is you.

[Retrograde]

24. Are they still air-conditioning the outdoors?

On the plus side, the area is encouraging more xeroscaping, and public transport has improved to being usable (at least in the Tempe area), but what always gets to me when I'm there are all the misters spraying water to cool down outdoor eating and shopping areas.

[Gravitycollapse]

27. Yes, air conditioning the outdoors is a staple of Arizona.

[Nevernose]

80. And ranchers use 90% of AZ's agricultural water n/t

[LeftInTX]

15. I agree. I wonder why they didn't convert that to xeriscape?

[Electric Monk]

16. and then there's the millions of dollars, year after year, that they throw down the NHL hole

that is the Phoenix Coyotes.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/391050-why-the-phoenix-coyotes-will-never-succeed

I'm stumped why anyone ever thought it would be a good idea to play hockey in the desert

Talk about an unsustainable use of resources.

[caseymoz]

21. In the 90s, people thought anything was possible.

In the age of the over-leveraged dotcom startups with no business plan, the Phoenix Coyotes fit right in. Hockey in the desert? Why not? Isn't fusion energy just around the corner?

[Blue_Tires]

50. To be fair, the Coyotes came at a time

when there was a LOT of southern NHL migration/expansion to non-traditional markets (some places have worked better than others)...Cities were building new, shiny, state-of-the-art arenas, and the NHL was chasing the bucks...

Not to mention the fact that Phoenix has a lot of retirees from northern states...

[ChazII]

19. Most homes now have desert landscaping

even in the older neighborhoods. The cities have classes on which types of desert landscaping would be best for the yards. Scottsdale is very pro-desert and fines those who misuse water.

This is another golf article.
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/20100619phoenix-golf-course-water-proposal.html

And this from New Times

Gregg Garfin, who has dedicated his life to studying droughts at the University of Arizona's Institute for the Study of Planet Earth, confirms that Phoenix is flush. "People ask me, 'Where should I live if I want a reliable water supply?' and I always say, 'Phoenix.'"

No one is saying you should waste water. But in this town, it's awfully hard to come up with a reason not to.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2008-04-17/news/no-one-is-saying-you-should-waster-water-but-in-phoenix-it-s-hard-to-come-up-with-a-reason-not-to/

[Gravitycollapse]

22. Actually, the older neighborhoods have more desert landscaping than the new ones.

It's the exact opposite effect. The massive expansion of our suburban areas has brought in non-native mentalities.

There is the extremely harmful idea that we can tame the desert and that every suburban house must have a lawn. That mentality has only been growing.

[dbackjon]

47. Again, you are wrong

Most new developments limit the amount of grass allowed.

[waddirum]

71. not true

Pretty much every new development (North Phoenix, Scottsdale, Anthem, etc.) since the early 1990s are xeriscaped and lawn free.

[Gravitycollapse]

98. Horse shit.

[SheilaT]

30. Read Cadillac Desert

by Marc Reisner. It came out in 1986. I read it back then, and we were living in Phoenix at the time. It's a real eye-opener about all of the parts of this country that we shouldn't be living in.

I do currently live in Santa Fe, which is also a semi-desert. Before I moved here 5 years ago I gave a lot of thought to the water issue. I am certainly no expert, but I will probably not stay here for the rest of my life.

Oh, and are they still allowing people to build swimming pools in Phoenix? You can't do that here in Santa Fe, for what that's worth.

It's my opinion that the underlying problem is that so many people chose to move to the desert parts of this country, and then decided it would be perfectly okay to reproduce the life styles they had back in Ohio or Massachusetts or wherever. By 1962, when I originally moved to Tucson, the pollen counts were already well above what they'd typically be in the East, and it was a given that if you didn't have allergies before you moved there, you'd get them in a few years. Fifty years ago. So none of this is new, it's just that so many prefer to ignore the truth.

[OnlinePoker]

33. Swimming Pools

I don't know if they are allowing new pools to be installed, but I just went on Google Earth and there are a shitload of them in a lot of backyards. None of them are covered (allowing evaporation to suck all that water away). Not only should they ban new pools, they should ban old ones as well.

[truebluegreen]

147. Excellent, excellent book!

I still have my copy and as a native of Colorado and later resident of various states in the intermountain West, I can attest to its usefulness and veracity. The problems highlighted in the book have only been exacerbated by climate change.

Much as I love my mountains and big skies, I had to move to a place where it rains...I couldn't bear to see my beautiful land dry up, burn down and blow away....

[quakerboy]

32. Im guessing the fact that many seem to

Turn the heat on if it drops below 80 outside also adds to the relative unsustainability factor.

[awoke_in_2003]

34. Same could be said of Vegas...

all those people with nice green grass lawns. We will get a clue one day, but it will be too late.

[dbackjon]

41. Future development site

Watered either with canal water, or more likely reclaimed sewer water.

Doesn't make sense to landscape if they are going to be building on it soon.

grass keeps it from being dusty - which IS a major problem in the phoenix area.



Your scare tactics are laughable. Least sustainable? Hardly. Brink of collapse? You have no clue.

[Spider Jerusalem]

49. That's a problem, yes...and golf courses, and lawns...but agriculture is a bigger one

use of water resources to grow tomatoes and lettuce so people on the East Coast can have fresh produce in January has more to do with Arizona's water-use problems than all the lawns and golf courses in Phoenix. (2/3 of water use in Arizona is agricultural.)

Irrigated agriculture is the largest use of water in Arizona, using about 68% of the available water supply. In the past, this percentage was as high as 90%; reductions have been the result of both urbanization of agricultural lands and heavy investment by the irrigated agriculture industry in conservation measures both on-farm and in delivery systems.

http://www.azwater.gov/AzDWR/StatewidePlanning/Conservation2/Agriculture/

[former9thward]

52. The entire OP is flawed.

I live in the Phoenix area and we don't have a water problem. I notice you have given no links to the so-called "estimates" that we will ration water by 2016.

[dbackjon]

151. Yup!!

[Turbineguy]

53. In my minds eye

I see a bunch of goose-stepping republicans practicing for a Nuremberg style rally.

[snooper2]

54. GOOD JOB! You found the only patch of grass in Phoenix

The bigger problem with Phoenix is nobody every introduced the residents to crayola---


Every house, even the trim is all tan or beige..

Not a red door or even maybe a little light green trim work to be found

[indepat]

57. Had a stopover at the Phoenix airport ten years ago and as we were landing, was

astounded to see swimming pools in twelve of thirteen backyards on one block.

[DesertFlower]

90. we had a pool in our last house. almost every house

did.

[d_r]

58. the Collapse documentary

the one for Jared Diamond's book, is dramatized by acting out future archaeologists studying what caused our society to collapse. They are digging in Phoenix and they say "well, the people knew that a water emergency might come, because almost every house had a concrete tank in the back yard, obviously to store water in case of emergency."

I thought it was funny the way that they would look back on swimming pools.

[JCMach1]

60. But is it grey water irrigated???

[dbackjon]

73. Good chance, yes

Where I used to live in Chandler (Phoenix suburb) helped pioneer the use of reclaimed sewage water. The entire 2 square mile development is irrigated (front and back yards) via a central irrigation system that uses reclaimed sewage water.

[galileoreloaded]

64. i agree

tell all the boomers to stay home and quit moving here.

[waddirum]

72. I think every American has the right to live anywhere in the U.S.

I don't dig "nativism" of any kind.

[LanternWaste]

160. Regardless of the consequences they may bring tomorrow, today's "freedoms"

"every American has the right to live anywhere in the U.S...."

Regardless of the consequences they may bring tomorrow, today's "freedoms" (i.e., little more than a way to rationalize convenience, pampered lifestyle, self-satisfaction and gratification) are bandied about like so much change in one's pocket.

It's truly a sorrow that we've decided to exchange tomorrow's sufferings for todays' "freedom", and have forgotten that everything has a price-- all the easier to justify when it's rarely the individual who has to pay that price, but rather some unnamed person in our future that we may conveniently ignore.

[OldHippieChick]

65. I was at a conference in Phoenix in the middle

of August a couple of years ago (gov't sponsored, hence the venue). The conference was at one the gazillion Marriotts in the area - and they were watering their lawn at noon! When I complained to the staff, they simply shrugged as if they didn't have a clue what I was talking about. Holy mackerel.

[Matariki]

66. Phoenix is just about the stupidest place I've ever been. Sorry, but it's true.

I lived there for about a year back in the 80's. I swear, most people's brains were literally baked and not functioning correctly. Which is what happens when you 'sunbathe' in August in 120 degree weather. The entire 'lifestyle' centered around guns, alcohol, jacked up trucks (that require ladders to get into and get something like 5 miles to the gallon). The main pastime seemed to be driving those trucks into the desert to drink and shoot things. And the pointless fountains and irrigated golf courses? Morons. Everything about the place screamed flagrant, ignorant wastefulness.

It's no wonder the state is so deeply republican and has the likes of Jan Brewer and Joe Arpaio.

[dbackjon]

75. Glad you are gone

Arizona is better off without you.

I don't own a gun, drink, drive a truck etc, and I love it here.


So please, avoid Arizona - FOREVER.

[Matariki]

67. Phoenix: The World’s Least Sustainable City

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/02/15/425798/phoenix-worlds-least-sustainable-city-green/?mobile=nc

The 17,000-square-mile region known as Greater Phoenix depends on a water supply pumped 300 miles uphill from the overallocated Colorado River, now in the second decade of a drought that has shrunk its volume to unprecedented lows. From 1990 to 2007, Arizona added fossil-fuel pollutants faster than any other state — the rate of increase was more than three times the national average … Once a haven for TB sufferers seeking respirator relief, by 2005 the Valley’s infamous Brown Cloud was drawing the lowest national grades from the American Lung Association for air quality in both ozone and particulates …

To cap it all, climate change [has] targeted the state for special attention in the years to come. As Jonathan Overpeck, Arizona’s leading climatologist (and one of the chief authors of the seminal 2007 assessment by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change), warned the state’s House Environment Committee in 2009: “Whether it is drought frequency, the increase in temperature, or the decrease in soil moisture, we are in the bull’s eye — the worst in the United States.”

[galileoreloaded]

70. agreed! its horrible and stupid.. stay away!!

[dbackjon]

74. Another bullshit article that doesn't have a clue

Phoenix doesn't depend on Colorado River water. We bank most of our allocation.

Most comes from gravity fed canals from the Salt/Verde/Agua Fria rivers.

[Matariki]

76. Just out of curiosity can you point to links backing that up?

My understanding is that Phoenix gets its water from the Colorado river. Things may have changed, but just saying it's a 'bullshit article' doesn't make it true.

I really am curious and am not picking a fight with you.

Like I mentioned, I lived in Arizona in the mid 80s and the place was truly awful. But I've heard that it's changed quite a bit since then.

[dbackjon]

83. Up thread there is a link

36% of our overall water usage does come from the Colorado River through the CAP. A lot of it is banked, both in Tucson and Phoenix.

I have lived in Phoenix on and off since 1988. Arizona (other than 5 years in Tennessee) for 30. It is a great place. Sorry you had a bad experience, but your stereotyping all Arizonans based on some experiences you had almost 30 years ago is bad.

[Mosby]

91. link

Despite the doomsayers' predictions, Phoenix and the state as a whole have a 100-year plan to meet the water needs agriculturally, residentially and commercially — a plan that's updated and revisited every five years. Phoenix currently gets its water from several sources: the Colorado River (36 percent), the Salt River (54 percent), groundwater (3 percent) and reclaimed water (7 percent).

http://m.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/stories/hydrating-phoenix-quenching-a-city-in-the-desert

Don't tell anyone but Phoenix is a great place to live. The area I live in is something of a restaurant mecca now, tons of local places with great prices.

[Matariki]

92. Thanks for the link - looking forward to reading it.

Now, if only you can vote out those damn Republicans and do something about Joe Arpaio.

[JCMach1]

165. I could make a pretty good argument for Dubai

but yeah, Phoenix is bad

[Matariki]

78. I can find link after link saying that Phoenix has a water problem

Yet there are a few people in this thread that insist that there is no shortage of water. So, instead of snark or knee jerk denial, I'd love to see some back up of that claim.


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/pf_article_111186.html

These are the ten largest cities by population that have the greatest chance of running out of water.

3. Phoenix
Major Water Supply: Colorado River Basin
Population (U.S. rank): 1,593,659 (5th)
Population Growth Rate: 21.2% since 2000
Average annual rainfall: 8.3 in.
Like many of the other western cities on this list, Phoenix is extremely dependent on water imported from the Colorado River. This is because nearly half of the water the city's residents use comes from this significant source. As the Colorado River Basin enters the eleventh year of its drought, the city's reliance on the river may soon become a serious problem. If the drought continues, water deliveries to Arizona could potentially be cut back. To keep up a sufficient water supply, Phoenix is adopting an aggressive campaign to recycle water, replenish groundwater and try to dissuade over-consumption. Time will tell if it these measures will be enough.

[Matariki]

81. More links.

Phoenix-area growth raises water fears

Phoenix and LA Spar Over Colorado River Water

Studies Show Southwest Faces Water Shortage

[Gravitycollapse]

87. Yeah, good luck with that. The few in this thread will not back up their claims.

Because they can't.

[dbackjon]

154. Everything in those links

Blows your OP out of the water, so to speak.

[dbackjon]

153. Everything in your links

Backs up what I have been saying, and refutes the OP's assertation that Phoenix will run dry of what in the next few years.

[emsimon33]

79. The miles & miles of large open canals bringing water across the desert from the Colorado River

It always amazed me that these canals weren't covered by something such as solar collectors. The amount of water loss to evaporation must be HUGE!

When I lived in Tempe which is next to Phoenix, I would amaze visitors from out of state by taking a heavy load of wash--such as towels--and hanging them on the clothes line outside. As soon as I had finished hanging the towels I could start back at the front of the line taking down the towels in order as they would already be dry!

We waste a lot of water in this country; and, having lived a lot of places, Arizona was among the worse offenders.

[FarCenter]

85. Phoenix, like most of the US, is only 50 to 70 years old.

Most of the buildings, roads, infrastructure in the US dates from after WW II.

Phoenix population in 1950 was 726,183, compared with 4,192,887 in 2010.

In another 60 years it may be back down to 726,183.

Stuff is temporary.

[mn9driver]

86. In 100 years, Phoenix will be gone.

As global warming really kicks in decades from now, parts of the country will become lethally hot for part of the year. Meaning, without cooling people will die within hours.

Unlike lethal cold, which people can dress for or improvise a heat source to defend against, lethal heat cannot be escaped without serious and reliable air conditioning.

[DesertFlower]

89. i live in phoenix and it amazes me

how much grass i see. i have my own well, but when we lived in our last house our water bill was quite high.

[markpkessinger]

105. Does Phoenix offer any kind of Xeriscape rebate program . . .

. . . along the lines of what Albuquerque offers? (See http://www.abcwua.org/content/view/132/222/ ).

[DesertFlower]

107. i don't think so.

[markpkessinger]

112. That's unfortunate . . .

. . . I first learned about xeriscape when I visited a friend who had moved from New York to Albuquerque. It seems to have been widely adopted there, to the point where traditional grass lawns, which seemed to be pretty rare, really looked out of place.

[Safetykitten]

121. Many of the cities offer rebates or money outright to get rid of lawn.

Last edited Fri May 3, 2013, 12:40 AM - Edit history (1)

A design I did for a client that took all his lawn out won the client an award from Scottsdale.

[Safetykitten]

93. Ah, the monthly Phoenix is fucked report.

Well THAT seals it. Time to flee this place. Tucson, you too, all of you, get the fuck out. Oh, and Flagstaff, you are on the dreaded doomed city list. What could we do in the meantime, before the place is filled with sand again? Well, lets try this.

All people that live "back East", you better keep the fuck out of here, and that means no coming here in the winter and hanging by the pool, unless you are part of a crack team of futurists that know what the score is, and are giving out warnings with the brunches by the pool.

Golfers, you need to keep the fuck out of here too. No coming out here and playing that game (which I agree is a sickening meld of arrogance, selfishness, and stupidity that is unmatched), and sipping drinks and talking about moving here.

Californians, you need to stay away also. As much as Phoenicians love your money, your house flipping, equity refugeeing, because I buy a Prius I am not so craven, you all screw this place up, and it is not the lawns you buy by the roll at Home Depot to turf up your latest flip that is the worst.

Vortex holers. You think that mind control gets the water out of your tap and shower magically before you go on that animal spirit/French wine tasting excursion in Sedona? Well it don't. So next time you are here, bring your own water.

Lettuce eaters. Where do you think THAT comes from, along with other tasty vegetable treats? Not the big bunny.

So excuse me if I ignore the water thing here in Phoenix and in Arizona in general. The one thing that Arizona does do in this monumentally fucked up state is control the water. They do that quite well, thank you very much. People see swimming pools. People see plants along the freeways and roads. Strange, California has a water issue too, but I do not see the red flag waving in their face. Have any of the people here describing our impending doom actually see how they water the plants on their freeways? Impact sprinkler heads. Lots of them. No drip irrigation. That's just for starters.

The poster found probably one of the only large expanses of lawn left at an ASU facility, as ASU main is content to fill every inch of space with a building and a xeriscape landscape. ASU west has a lawn! OMG! You people don't deserve things like that in Arizona. So thank you for the concern, thank you for all your impending doom stories that are not applicable to anyone else in the nation. You know, New Jersey rebuilding on barrier islands, Maryland developing every last inch of space, Florida, well...is Florida, Texas and their blow up towns pastime, the Midwest and their wind moveable abodes, and the neverending spring floods and "let's rebuild THAT!

So see you all at the Hyatt Scottsdale this winter, as you are slumming here, and we will pour you a big glass of sand. Because we care.

[Gravitycollapse]

97. There are literally dozens if not hundreds of large grassy areas on the ASU campuses.

Have you ever actually set foot on any of these campuses? Or are you just kind of hoping what you're saying is correct?

[Safetykitten]

99. Yes, actually I have. Other than recreational fields the grass is a negligent amount.

[Gravitycollapse]

100. Go into Google Earth and take a look for yourself. What you're saying is entirely untrue.

[Safetykitten]

101. No, it is not. The percentage of buildings to turf and actual turf area is small.

Yes, there is a large lawn at the Gammage, and that is part of the character of a masterpiece FLW building. For the size of the campus the turf area is not big.

The ratio is just not big. You better pick another example, say like up in Scottsdale.

[Gravitycollapse]

103. Stop talking and take a look. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

[Safetykitten]

118. Uh, no you do not know what you are talking about.

Doing doodles on Google Earth means nothing.

By the way, that large one? That's a recreation field for students. Is that ok with you? Or should they rock that?

[Gravitycollapse]

119. I did that Google Earth drawing for you. I am on campus right now. I am here 5 days a week.

I know where grass is located. Although I didn't even bother pointing out every single field.

And, for your information, I do not support having gigantic grass recreational fields in any capacity in this state.

[Safetykitten]

120. What are you in the landscape program there? Is this your little thesis?

I graduated from ASU in the early 80's. Then a degree from the landscape architecture program at U of A. What you don't know would fill Tempe Town Lake.

There has been a massive program of tearing out turf on the campus. Many areas that were turf are not. Have you taken a look at the architectural abortions that they have added to the campus, the east side specifically? No turf, A forest of Palo Verde trees in a sea of stone. The new residence halls on the south east side? All no turf, except in relatively small areas in the courtyards.

So you don't think that ASU students should be able to have a turf area to play football or softball on?

Try telling all the valley cities that you want to plant what you want. Not happening. Has to be on the state low water list. California do that? Uhhhhh. NO.

[Gravitycollapse]

122. You're telling me you graduated 33 years ago and your experience is still relevant?

Those new residence halls on the south east corner of campus are part of the honors college (which I am a member of). And the entire interior of the complex is carpeted with grass.

[Safetykitten]

123. Your stupidity is really showing.

Yes, there are turf areas small in relationship to the building area as I said. People living in rat maze new concrete block dorms LIKE some turf.

Do you even know what LEED standards are, you imbecile honors student?

Oh and on edit...what exactly are you doing here consuming our precious water? You better not be floating down the Salt River.

[Gravitycollapse]

126. You have nothing. So you insult me. That's fine.

[Safetykitten]

128. I have something. I will teach you some things.

ASU requires a certain level of LEED compliance for all the new building on campus. All the newer buildings, I believe in the last 7 years have been LEED compliant for energy and water use inside and out. All those buildings have water that needs to go somewhere during an event. Either they go into retention, those large landscape areas with plants,(no turf) or the water is engineered to flow through planting areas adjacent to the building, or go into the main retention area or both. During different rain events, the retention areas fill up, and water the plants there, all low water use plants per the ADWR plant list. Only ADWR plants are allowed to be planted ANYWHERE in the state according to the management area.

Do other states do this to this level? NO.

Is turf allowed in the right of way in other states? Yes. Arizona? NO.

Do other states have water event retention guidelines that approach Arizona's standards? NO.

I can go on and on, but will not. There are areas that have turf at ASU? Yes, because IT IS A CAMPUS. Does it have an excessive amount? NO. Are they refining more areas as they overbuild the campus? YES. Some places because of the design and heritage of the building have some turf. Old Main has a turf area around it, like Old Main at U of A. It is part of the historical context of the building. I advised a client on a project of a Mid-Century iconic Phoenix high rise building and the turf area it had. I told him to keep it. It is part of the buildings design.

I am not a turf lover, but the excesses of tearing every blade of grass out is just not constructive or wise.

[Gravitycollapse]

132. I'm here to tell you that I don't give a single shit about the heritage of our grass lawns.

If you know anything about the LEED ranking you'd know it's a sliding scale. And just because it qualifies for LEED certification does not mean it is sustainable. As I'm sure you already know, given your educational background.

You can find the LEED rankings of the various new ASU buildings here...http://www.asu.edu/fm/albums/leed/leed_facts.htm

The honors college is on that list.

[Safetykitten]

134. OMG, If you are a landscape architect student, I weep for the future.

Yes it is on the list. And?

But YOU know better than LEED guidelines and Sustainable Sites. You. No grass for anyone. 53% reduction in irrigation consumption. Not acceptable. Make those suckers sit on gravel.

LEED Gold, but not good enough for you. It has grass.

[Gravitycollapse]

138. It's adorable that you think government standards on sustainability are ideal...

Or even up to par. The fact that the honors college barely attains half the points on the scale is not confidence inspiring. And as I was just in the honors college about 10 hours ago, I can tell you the photo portrayed in that list is reflective of the interior of the complex. Grass is more than an accent. It is everywhere.

[Safetykitten]

124. Please, please don't be in the ASU landscape program...

My worst nightmares for landscape architecture in Arizona would be realized.

[Safetykitten]

125. Oh and another thing. What the fuck does the fact that I graduated 33 years ago have?

Honors program huh? Try some class.

[Gravitycollapse]

127. Who knows more about the current state of the Tempe campus?

Someone who is a current student? Or someone who graduated in 1980?

Hmmmmm...that's a tough one.

[Safetykitten]

129. Obviously not you.

Because I know fellow design professionals that are very close to the ASU campus design criteria and guidelines, and actually design the buildings you slouch to and fro from. So when you are in a non-iPhone moment, you would actually see the design intent and success of low water use plants and landscape design. We talk about this very topic oddly enough.

[Gravitycollapse]

130. When was the last time that you actually walked through campus? Be honest.

[Safetykitten]

131. Last week. Read my previous response.

[Gravitycollapse]

133. In what post did you state you walked through the ASU campus last week?

[Safetykitten]

135. Last week. But a more important point...

If you are a landscape architecture student, and I pray that you are not, as your moronic my way or the highway views on grass would make you a darling addition to any LA office that would make your career very difficult. Because if you were paying attention in class you would realize that landscape architecture is not an absolute this way design process, Sometimes turf is ok, and as I said, I am NOT a big fan of turf. But certain areas and places need it for basic human activity. A park, a campus, these traditionally have some turf. Yes, even in Phoenix, they have turf in these places. Also we have turf in places where it is not needed. The marketplace is solving this, as you drive around you will see many areas that turf is being replaced by decomposed granite. This is good. Water is becoming too expensive to put on lawns.

What is not good is the demand of students like yourself that feel that the entire Phoenix area should be devoid of turf, even as possibly you do not even live here, and will go back to wherever you came from and be secure in the knowledge that where you are, YOU deserve grass. Even though say Illinois should not have turf either and native grasses instead.

But keep on making your little point that here, no grass is allowed, and I will think of the hilarity that will ensue as you have your first client in say, a Phoenix LA firm tell you he wants some grass. 500 square feet say in a small area for people to sit by. You will tell him no. Absolutely no. And by judging from the talent that is produced by the ASU program, you will be kinda between a no grass area and a decomposed granite area.

[Gravitycollapse]

137. I've lived in Phoenix since 1993. And your own argument is confused and inconsistent.

You talk about how grass can be replaced. Yet you also claim that grass is necessary. You talk about how the heritage of grass is important. Yet you are now claiming that it is too expensive to maintain lawns.

But keep insulting me. That makes perfect sense.

[ChazII]

116. Thank you for posting.

I have not been on ASU main for a decade but even when I left in 1980 they were beginning to make plans to change the campus.

[Politicalboi]

102. Wind turbines produce water

Arizona has plenty of space for those, and plenty of wind. They should make a huge patio of solar panels here to run the school. Take out the grass, and put pebbles and cactus and table and benches.

[Gravitycollapse]

104. Granted, ASU has built a massive infrastucture of solar panels.

[pinto]

106. Water is the primary 21st century challenge throughout the southwest.

Even alongside urban congestion, transportation, economic inequalities, etc. water is a basic for all communities.

[Recursion]

114. A Sam Kinison quote comes to mind

Too bad I can't find a youtube clip of it

[Junkdrawer]

170. That great "There's no more water. Nothing grows here. You have to move." rant?

[Junkdrawer]

172. Found this:

"I'm like anyone else on this planet -- I'm very moved by world hunger. I see the same commercials, with those little kids, starving, and very depressed. I watch those kids and I go, 'Fuck, I know the FILM crew could give this kid a sandwich!' There's a director five feet away going, 'DON'T FEED HIM YET! GET THAT SANDWICH OUTTA HERE! IT DOESN'T WORK UNLESS HE LOOKS HUNGRY!!!' But I'm not trying to make fun of world hunger. Matter of fact, I think I have the answer. You want to stop world hunger? Stop sending these people food. Don't send these people another bite, folks. You want to send them something, you want to help? Send them U-Hauls. Send them U-Hauls, some luggage, send them a guy out there who says, 'Hey, we been driving out here every day with your food, for, like, the last thirty or forty years, and we were driving out here today across the desert, and it occurred to us that there wouldn't BE world hunger, if you people would LIVE WHERE THE FOOD IS! YOU LIVE IN A DESERT! YOU LIVE IN A FUCKING DESERT! NOTHING GROWS OUT HERE! NOTHING'S GONNA GROW OUT HERE! YOU SEE THIS? HUH? THIS IS SAND. KNOW WHAT IT'S GONNA BE A HUNDRED YEARS FROM NOW? IT'S GONNA BE SAND! YOU LIVE IN A FUCKING DESERT! GET YOUR STUFF, GET YOUR SHIT, WE'LL MAKE ONE TRIP, WE'LL TAKE YOU TO WHERE THE FOOD IS! WE HAVE DESERTS IN AMERICA -- WE JUST DON'T LIVE IN THEM, ASSHOLES!"

--From an appearance on Rodney Dangerfield's "It's Not Easy Being Me," 1984.


And the clip:

[AZ Progressive]

117. Speaking of Wasting Water...

Imagine the amount of evaporation from this on a 110 degree summer day in Tempe (Phoenix Metro)





not to mention the opulent golf courses of the Phoenix metro area:





And plenty more of grass:

[Laelth]

148. Great pics.

The Valley of the Sun is, truly, a beautiful place, but it is not a sustainable environment for more than a million people.

-Laelth

[dbackjon]

155. So you object to recreation areas?

You don't want kids to play soccer, softball or baseball?

You do know that most of the golf courses and "ponds" are filled with reclaimed sewage water, right?

[JDPriestly]

139. Los Angeles has a rather mild form of rationing, but it is definitely water rationing.

And many of us are putting in succulents for sustainable yards. I for one am having a lot of fun getting to know succulents. Rocks and succulents can be beautiful if artfully arranged. Some succulents bloom. I have one tiny succulent plant -type that is a ground cover and has delicate pink blooms. Others have large yellow or orange blooms. Many of my succulents turn red at the edges or entirely in direct sun.

I plant vegetables in pots. That way I can control my water use better.

[Jamastiene]

141. I despise perfectly mowed lawns like that to begin with.

I am sure that one gets watered a lot to be that green. Most lawns that look like that get watered constantly. I wonder if there is any data available on how many gallons of water it uses per day.

K&R

[LanternWaste]

158. Our desire for a convenient lifestyle has superseded any priorities

Our desire for a convenient lifestyle in the here and now has superseded any priorities we may collectively give to a sustainable environment for tomorrow-- all too often in the name of "freedom".

I wish that was limited only to one city or one region, yet it's a first- and second-world planetary problem we will have to solve... and the longer we wait, the more expensive and the more expansive the solutions will be.

[WinkyDink]

167. Why would I wonder about a desert?

[Junkdrawer]

169. Look at the bright side....

Ever since the West discovered Easter Island, people have wondered "What went throught the mind of the Rapa Nui as they cut down the last tree?"

Now we'll know.

[undergroundpanther]

171. lawns

of grass that must be cut ov er and over,weeded,watered,fed,stupidist invention and waste of time and resources EVER.

I hate lawns.