Question: Are there any laws regulating when a neighborhood can be locked down?

[Junkdrawer]

How is this handled? Discretion of the police? Do elected officials need to approve? a judge?

[aristocles]

1. Yes, it's called the 4th amendment

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[Junkdrawer]

2. "unreasonable searches and seizures" and there lies the rub....

Unless it's guarded by some checks and balances, just about anything can be deemed "reasonable".

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Exigency circumstances

It's well established in US law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exigent_circumstance_in_United_States_law

Usually a "lockdown" and entry intro private property. This is a few blocks and happens often, unfortunately.

Boston was in the news because of the high profile suspect and the size of the area involved. But seriously we have one of these per PD almost per shift in San Diego...

Anytime you have a foot bail entering people's property the cops come right behind. Lockdowns and swat hapen once a shift for the county.

Remember Dornan? Not only was the navy base on lockdown, but so was a good section of Point Loma.

[Junkdrawer]

5. So now it's up to police discretion?

Doesn't it seem that some further oversight is called for?

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. It's not now. It's been this way for decades

If not longer. It is part of the concept of hot pursuit.

It used to be that pursuits stopped at the state line, in a few cases at the county line, but with mutual aid these now continue not just across county lines, and state lines, but even international lines. Whenever we have a suspect trying to enter Mexico, for example, the border is not just shut down, but the other side has judicial federal police waiting. Similar agreements are now in effect with Canada, where the RCMP is there.

Those arrested this way "under hot pursuit" are just cuffed, but returned across the border, no fuss, no muss. This rarely happens going to the US, but that is because that border is jammed. So fleeing to the US is rare as can be.

If you didn't realize this, one of the reason the police chatter was "in the clear" in Boston is because you had multiple local, state and federal agencies in the same channel...the 10 code has enough variations... Hell with Dornan our local wants and warrants channel became the channel, they could not push it county wide, but again...so many agencies that they were "in the clear."

And yes, it's always been up to the police command... It is not new. It's been going on for a long time and SCOTUS has found it perfectly legal, and it goes back to the time of Magna Carta actually.

People are just noticing now, but I can tell you, we had a couple of those last night, and the night before, and so on. They usually involve a chopper, and a block.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

44. Do you have anything that documents that Exigent Circumstances was asserted as the basis for

searching homes without warrants? Statement from purported residents have said it went both ways (mandatory and refused)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

6. Exigent circumstances only go so far

Though the judiciary is not fond of Monday morning quarterbacking the police in the middle of mess, it can be fought afterwards in court. Best approach is to get multiple plaintiffs to do discovery and catch the government actors in lies. Works pretty well.

Still waiting to get good information if the searches in Boston were mandatory and done under exigent circumstances doctrine or not. Some residents say yes, others say no. My guess is that both are right and different teams handled it differently.

[Junkdrawer]

15. Want to bet that class and race were involved in the voluntary/mandatory differences?

Seems some neighborhoods are locked down regularly.

[RILib]

56. MIT, that lower class Black institution

Really, come on.

[graham4anything]

4. I was very happy with cops patrolling the gas lines after Sandy.Stopped chaos

[Junkdrawer]

7. Say what you like about Mussolini, he made the trains run on time.

got it

[graham4anything]

9. I am not a supporter of Chaos and vigilantism and Zimmerman(s).

I do wish however that FDR went into Germany a helleva lot earlier and it saved 20 million people instead of waiting for an excuse because he felt USA was not willing to save those lives. A timely drone would have in 2013 stopped that though maybe a week earlier than the first death.
Who wouldn't want that?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

12. But you are a supporter of 1%er authoritarianism

not to mention foreign adventurism and interventionism, which leads to chaos and US lead vigilantism.

[graham4anything]

14. FDR and Teddy Roosevelt used their power and were authoritarianists too

yet, those with guns/bullets sleep with them they are so afraid of boogie men.

I know gun people hate Bloomberg. Their guns/bullets are at stake.

How's the rating of Kelly A? Dropped 30 points. She can/will be beaten in the next election.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. You cite historical rich white imperialists as good examples? Some of their actions make

Bloomie and Bush look good.

[11 Bravo]

36. It's always amusing to witness an attempt to view an historical figure ...

through an 80 year old prism. FDR was, by any measure, a hugely progressive influence on American politics; yet you narrowly characterize him as a "rich, white imperialist". I am not, in fact, a professor, but it occurs to me that the United States in 1933, when FDR assumed the Presidency, was a vastly different nation than it is today. It would be instructive, if a time machine were available, to drop your progressive butt into the early 20th century and witness how efficient you would have been in instituting the transformative nature of that rich, white imperialist's truly progressive vision for America.
Was he rich? Yup. White? Guilty as charged. Flawed? Fuck yes, just ask the thousands of Japanese-Americans who were unjustly imprisoned during WWII. But it still strikes me as intellectually lazy if not downright dishonest to dismiss him in the terms you used.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

39. He did a lot more than just intern the Japanese and TR was worse

If you look at my statement in the context of who I was responding to, it was suitable and appropriate.

The poster worships authoritarian 1%ers and cited these two in a word salad response. Pointing out his errors are like shooting fish in a barrel

The farther back you go in history the more "people of their time" historical figures become. It excuses much

[11 Bravo]

45. Has not everyone who ever lived been a person of their time?

What other choice was available to them? I am willing to at least attempt to view them through the appropriate prism.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

49. You might as well say that no one does evil in their own eyes and pardon everyone including Pol Pot

Stalin, Wayne LaPierre, all the Nazis, and the BFEE.

[11 Bravo]

59. So now FDR is on a par with Stalin, Nazis, and Pol Pot?

As soon as Mike Godwin was able to quit laughing, he called and said to tell you that you just lost the argument.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

60. No, it points out that using using a 'nuanced view in their historical context' is a crock

Citing nazis as I did does not qualify as Godwin. It was a list of horrific historic figures, if your logic was followed, that would be absolved. A classic reductio ad absurdum

[Revanchist]

10. There's a difference

There's a difference between maintaining order in a public area and conducting house to house searches without a warrant.

[graham4anything]

13. And the haterperp was on someone's private property. Thank God they caught him

and if the car had gas, he could have attempted to get into Times Square a million could have died. Thank God he didn't.
(Though I believe he would not have gotten the car into NYC.)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

43. A million could have died?

DU's hyperbole budget is seriously overdrawn this month. It resets on the 1st. Please restrain yourself until more quota is available

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. Patrolling gas lines is not the same as going into houses without warrants

[graham4anything]

18. After we reinterpret the 2nd, later on we can talk about other things.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

41. Glad to see you are becoming more forthcoming about your real agenda

As you sellout our natural rights to the 1%ers. Tell us, what did they give you for them?

[graham4anything]

46. I have been against guns from day 1. My angle is clear. Everybody has an angle.

angle=agenda
everyone should get theirs on the table

because this isn't a let's talk about our cats board with only cat lovers on it.
because through it all
I love them and mine.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

48. And clearly the 4th amendment as well. In what order are the 1st through ther 10th on your list

for abolishment?

[graham4anything]

51. It's funny how the NRA knows the 2nd will be reinterpreted, so they start in with the 4th

[ProgressiveProfessor]

52. Well in this case you endorsed its blatant violation, so I thought it best to start there

There are not the so called NRA memes, they are your own words. Own up to them

[galileoreloaded]

53. of course you were..

authoritarians love love love order.

[Bluenorthwest]

8. I just have to say that this sort of question around Boston reminds me of those geezers

who refuse to evacuate in an emergency because they want to express their liberty to stay in place and be washed out to sea. I have yet to hear of even one person who wanted to go out during the search for the bomber which makes sense because it was dangerous to do so.
To use the term 'lock down' suggests that force was used or needed. That the community was not working together but being forced to do as they did. I think it is very sad to see a strong community action like that day in Boston painted as something done to the people when the people were willing partners in it.
I wonder if the OP is saying that had the OP been present, they would have desired to go outside during that crap? One can tell the OP was not present. But what if the OP had been....

[graham4anything]

11. Yup.I applaud the people that applauded after it was over.

Made me rethink about this hatred for cops and law enforcement and how misplaced it is.

"It's funny when you get this close, it's kind of hard to hate"-Harry Chapin, The night that made America famous(c)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. As you did when OWS was suppressed

Requiring cops to follow the law is not a bad thing, no matter how you spin it. Cops don't like it, but that really should not matter, unless you are into authoritarian government.

Checkout DU member Carlos Miller's blog about those sorts of things: www.carlosmiller.com

[graham4anything]

19. Everybody has an angle-Bing Crosby. Mutual I'm sure-Doris from same movie.(c)

War power acts is legal and have been reapproved two or three times.

Don't like W? Don't elect Jeb.
Work to elect Hillary Clinton and keep Barack Obama's agenda forever.

There were no riots during Katrina. But off duty vigilantes on Danzinger Bridge

Martin Sheen and Father Berrigan were arrested countless times. They never whined about it nor used hyperbole.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. Alll of which has nothing to do with the discussion

and is just so much word salad.

[Bluenorthwest]

24. Sorry but what I am saying is not about the cops, it is about the people and community.

I don't know Boston at all, but the PD in Los Angeles is basically a gang with badges, and NYPD have horrific and deeply racist policies as well. Much if not most of the criticism law enforcement agencies get is very valid and the aftermath of the search in Boston shows us exactly why those agencies need to be held to extremely high standards. There must be enough trust in civil authority to allow citizens to feel good about cooperating in times of emergency or mutual need. LAPD would never see the level of cooperation Boston had, because so many have great and righteous reason not to trust the police. This is why abuse by law enforcement personnel is such a terrible thing, it is not only an attack on a citizen or citizens, it is an attack on the very fabric of our communities, the all important trust and mutual interest that keeps our social contract intact.
In Boston, I was impressed by the people of the city during the whole thing. Their police did their jobs. As time goes by, the important thing to do is to honestly dissect each action and choice that was made and seek to weed out the bad and nurture the good. This means the language needs to be accurate on all fronts. If any officer exploited the moment for personal agendas or made poor choices or acted with great heroism, all of these things should be spoken of as they were and are.
Make no mistake, the people who do most damage to the public trust on an ongoing basis are police officers. I hoped the Bostonian folks would stay inside because of police incompetence as well as criminal threat. LAPD's manhunts often get random citizens shot many times. That's worth hiding from. And that sort of crap is why people do not have trust and why that sort of crap should not be tolerated by people or by PDs. It is those very crimes by police that lead to people not wanting to evacuate, or freak out if the police suggest staying inside during a dangerous situation.
So I'm not defending the police as a people, I'm saying the language used should reflect the reality, and our objective should be full respect for all people and all rights and not a shred of tolerance for police abuses because such abuses lead to distrust of our society and that is fucking dangerous shit indeed.

[graham4anything]

35. NYPD has SOME and was 100% worse under Giuliani.They are an entity unto themselves

Boston/LA/NY did have one thing in common-William Bratton.

Not giving any opinion about Mr. Bratton, but they shared him.

Ray Kelly is the current police chief, he is alot better.
And NY does have the 96 hour blue wall of silence.
BUT-one has to remember, like reporters who were embedded in General's jeeps,
it is not easy when a bad one is out there with good ones.
The good ones life is dependent upon the ohters.

Which is why cameras on all sides make any abuse aparent and transparent.

SO MORE cameras are a good thing. Both the public and the official cameras

and either way, If you see something suspicious, report it.
That includes abuse.

But having a manefesto like that Dorner did, did not make Dorner a good cop, it made him a vigilante ex-cop who had properly been fired for not being a good cop.
SO he abused the system, not once, but twice. End of story.

[truebluegreen]

22. Can we please all remember that Boston was not LOCKED DOWN?

The public was asked to stay at home, off the streets.

Whether that was an over-reaction (I think it was) is another question.

[Junkdrawer]

23. Boston was one thing. But when it threatens to be part of the New Normal....

City Of Philadelphia Advises Residents On What To Do If Ordered To ‘Shelter In Place’

During last week’s events in Boston, residents were told to “shelter in place,” which raises the question, would you know what to do if a similar order was issued in Philadelphia?

In the Emergency Management section of the City of Philadelphia’s website, there are now some guidelines for residents to follow.

First and foremost, the city says residents should be prepared to shelter in place for at least three days, which means stocking supplies like medications, food, batteries, drinking water, flashlights and more inside of an emergency kit.

And if a shelter in place order is issued, you and your family should go indoors immediately with all doors and windows locked and your fireplace damper closed.

...

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2013/04/24/city-of-philadelphia-advises-residents-on-what-to-do-if-ordered-to-shelter-in-place/

[leveymg]

26. With "Fireplace damper closed" - in case Santa turns terrorist, or in case of . . .?

what? NBC attack by MSNBC?

[Junkdrawer]

28. Things that make you go hmmmmm....

Saw that too.

Could be echos of the Dirty Bomb scares of the Bush era.

[Bluenorthwest]

27. Nature is the main reason it is wise to be ready to shelter in place. Did you miss Sandy?

After the Northridge quake, in my building of 50 units about 6 of us had so much as breakfast present. 3 houses had water stored. This is LA, where people are reminded to stock up on these things.
Most States, Cities and Counties spend a bit of energy trying to get people to have some supplies on hand. In case of storm, quake, volcanic activity....
The idea that people should keep a few days of necessities on hand in case of emergency is not new, nor is the practice normal, no matter how many times you tell people to do so, after the quake they still come and knock on my door looking for breakfast and then lunch, dinner, water to make the toilet flush, a bucket to put the water in....

[Mojorabbit]

29. I live in florida and am always prepared for a hurricane

We also get a lot of tornados though not the big ones. I could last a good while if I had to shelter in place. I think it should be voluntary and that if one goes out and gets into trouble after dismissing the request they should be well advised before hand that firefighters and police will not be coming to save their butt if they get into trouble. Win Win

[Junkdrawer]

30. Actually, I didn't miss Sandy....

Less snark - more whitespace.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. That is standard only... For a dirty bomb

Or major chemical spill.

There is one place in my town that if it goes, that advise (except the chimney) would be more than just pertinent. (Gas storage facility, that smoke is very toxic). A few others where the same goes, plastics.

The Philly EOC is pulling things back from the post 911 hysteria...only thing missing is duct tape and plastic.

FYI, this has been a real fear of DHS for over a decade now. So every terror attack that is confirmed I expect that to be rinsed and recycled...call me, a confirmed cynic.

But that is what is going on. The 72 hour emergency kit is just common sense... And not just good for chemical, nuclear, bio attacks (somebody get them fainting salts for that emergency comminity and the couch) it is also pertinent for a major snow storm...for example

[graham4anything]

47. We were told we would not have electricity for 9 days during Sandy. On the 9th day there was light

and we were told what we should do
and we did it.

never once needing any gun or bullet
never getting frantic
never worrying when it was dark

why?
Because we were all in it together.

and you know what-
the police and firemen and those who were part of the armed services, and bankers and lawyers and doctors and those unemployed and so on , everyone was in the same place

and we preservered.

and I for one was damn happy the police were watching the gas lines, and enforcing the ration odd/even.
We all got gas.

and one by one the stores re-opened, the food became available, the gas problem ended
and we didn't shout police state/martial law.

Those that shout that are not even getting what martial law is. And there was none in Boston.
It was though like a major snowstorm. Only a fool who was not part of law enforcement would put themselves/and/or their family in danger and not follow the voluntary advice

Nothing worse during a snowstorm than someone getting stuck and because of that person who didn't stay home the plow couldn't get through
Or the selfish person who goes to work with the flu and because they lied during the year and called in sick so they could have a day off, goes and gets everyone else infected who didn't get the flu shot (let alone the ones that won't get a shot because Wakefield the Quack told them not to).

etc

[datasuspect]

25. i use Texas as a barometer for many things

once this shit starts happening in Texas, i will know this country is gone for good and that the people in it get whatever they deserve for trading their fundamental liberty for the ILLUSION of safety.

[kestrel91316]

32. Are you aware that Boston was NOT "locked down"??

People were ASKED to stay in their homes out of a concern for their safety because a mass murderer/terrorist was running loose in their community and the police were in hot pursuit.

But thanks for continuing to spread that nonsense around.

[Junkdrawer]

34. There are times when I expect snaky responses to a thread....

This was not one of them. All I asked was if there were laws regulating lock downs. And my OP didn't mention Boston.

Curious.

[Posteritatis]

37. The implication could not be more obvious. (nt)

[HiPointDem]

38. what *is* the 'implication,' then? do tell.

please make a list of the questions we are not allowed to ask for fear of getting a visit from the snark and smear patrol.

[Mopar151]

42. We are kind of used to this in New England

Blizzards, Ice Storms, 'Nor'easters - We stay in practice, and the "authourities" know that ringing the bell without need will screw things up. The right of New Englanders to discreetly snoop on the neighbors and complain about the weather some more shall not be abridged! - but, as they say in Maine, "You don't have to be a damm fool about it!"

[Savannahmann]

58. Don't you think there is a difference?

Between nature telling you it would be unwise to leave your home, and the Government telling you that you aren't permitted to leave your home? Then there is another difference, between nature dropping a tree on your home, making it impossible to stay, and the Government dragging you out at gunpoint telling you that you aren't permitted to stay until they decide the suspect is no where around.

One we are powerless to do anything about. We can't influence any action on Nature's part. We can get together, and tell the Government that it is unacceptable. We have some power, for now, over one. We may never have power over the other.

[Mopar151]

61. There was never an offical order.

There was a request from the Governor. Just like having power lines down in an ice storm. If the order is offical, you gotta be ready to arrest anyone who nominally violates it, and we got no time....
Look, we gotta be careful about this stuff - but this was well played.

[smirkymonkey]

62. Oh boy, the obtuseness is particularly thick these days.

Of course it is all coming from non-Bostonians. We were simply requested to shelter in place for our our own safety and that of others. Why is that so hard for people to understand?

[treestar]

40. It would involve exigent circumstances

Something would be happening in the right now time frame. And something or someone dangerous. Do people really want to go looking for the suspect themselves, or worry about him being out there? If you knew, you'd stay home or leave the area in most cases. Maybe there are some vigilantes who want to help the cops, but not many.

[Fumesucker]

50. Only about 65% of murder cases are cleared with a conviction these days.

In many large cities the clearing rate for murder is under 50%.

What that means is that at any given moment there are quite literally thousands of murderers walking around America who have never even been arrested.

These are dangerous people and they are everywhere. Doesn't that make you afraid to leave your home?

[treestar]

54. It's one thing to know they are out there

in general but another to know a specific one is there. What we don't know doesn't scare us. I can't picture most people shrugging their shoulders where they specifically know John Doe Maniac could be in their neighborhood.

[LanternWaste]

55. It certainly does when a tornado is sighted three miles away

"Doesn't that make you afraid to leave your home?"

It certainly does when a tornado is sighted three miles away and the local population is asked to stay indoors... despite the fact that there are "at any given moment there are quite literally" hundreds of severe weather conditions "walking around in America..."

[Fumesucker]

57. The statistical likelihood is that there is murderer much closer than that to you

And once a tornado is gone it's gone, not so with murderers, they just keep accumulating.

According to data made available by the FBI, In 2011, an estimated 14,612 persons were murdered in the United States, 35% of that is 5,114 so that many murderers *per year* accumulate on our streets.

Humans really suck at threat assessment, witness the number of people who are terrified of flying but think nothing of the much more dangerous drive to the airport.