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Recursion

(56,582 posts)
Fri Apr 26, 2013, 12:23 AM Apr 2013

Is Canada or Mexico a better comparison to the US?

This came up in a couple of threads on guns but it seems to apply to a lot of things so I thought I would break out an OP for this (and hopefully we don't have to bring guns into this).

My contention is that the US is more like the revolutionary democracies to our south than the social democracies to our north and in Europe. My arguments:

Like Mexico, Brazil, and pretty much the rest of Latin America, the US has a Federal government organized along Montesquieu's lines with a strong executive independent of the legislature; the head of state is also the chief of government. Canada and the European countries basically all have a parliamentary system with a weak executive tied to the legislature, and a figurehead head of state (a monarch in some cases; a ceremonial president in others). Elections in the US and Latin America are at scheduled times and there are frequently irregularities in the casting and counting of votes. Elections in Canada and Western Europe (and I'm going to stop adding "in general" and other qualifiers like that from this point on; let this be a blanket acknowledgement of some exceptions) are not scheduled and are generally free from serious irregularities.

Life expectancy at birth is in the low 80s in Canada and Europe; it's in the high 70s in the US and Latin America.



The Gini coefficient (a common measure of income and wealth inequality) of Canada and Europe is in the 20s and 30s; it's in the 40s and 50s in the US and Latin America. (Lower is better, or at least more equal.)



Homicide rates (what started this whole question) are not quite so easy to categorize.



For Canada and Europe, they're around 1.2 per 100K. For Latin America, they're in the teens. We're at about 5 per 100k, or basically right in between them.

Our per capita GDP is also a weird one; it's off the charts high, higher than Latin America or Europe (Canada's is too). The US and Canada are up there with places like Brunei and the UAE (and it's no coincidence that the US and Canada have a ton of natural resources, too.)

Now, for the less chart-able stuff:

The US and Latin America are revolutionary democracies with histories of slavery and a still-present underclass along racial lines (for most of central America it's indigenous peoples rather than persons of African descent.) Canada and Europe are not; they have racial minorities descended from people who came there willingly.

Canada and Europe have strong, functional safety nets and are, in short, full social democracies. The US and Latin America are not (for one thing, the system of government I mentioned above makes it structurally difficult to effectively become a social democracy -- parliaments can in general pass laws more easily than federal republic systems).

Another interesting point is that though I have placed us with Latin America, on everything but Gini we're in between Latin America and Canada/Europe. I suppose you could see us as the most European of the Latin American countries or the most Latin American of the European countries. And I suppose that's also the question.

Anyways like I said this came up in a series of threads on guns. Not to drag that flamebait in, but the reason it was an issue was because we were comparing our homicide rate to various countries. For instance, we have a much higher homicide rate than Canada, but a much lower one than Venezuela. (And much weaker gun laws than both.) Which one is the apt comparison?

I just don't see us as a social democracy. I'd like for us to be one, but I'm not sure our cultural and constitutional makeup really make it entirely possible, so I'm stuck doing what I can to clean stuff up around the edges (eg PPACA rather than a real public health care system). Any thoughts? (And, yes, I mentioned guns but that was just the starting point and I'd really rather not have this devolve into that discussion if possible.)

16 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Is Canada or Mexico a better comparison to the US? (Original Post) Recursion Apr 2013 OP
Kick LeftInTX Apr 2013 #1
A combination of the two. The US is too heterogenous to be categorized into one or the other, nt geek tragedy Apr 2013 #2
We should be more like Canada and Europe BainsBane Apr 2013 #3
There was some slavery in Europe Art_from_Ark Apr 2013 #4
Great thread! I'll sign off on responses #1 and #3 WhaTHellsgoingonhere Apr 2013 #5
Living in Alaska, Blue_In_AK Apr 2013 #6
Very interesting! This has been on my mind a lot. These sorts of things. Quantess Apr 2013 #7
Yeah, what's up with that? BainsBane Apr 2013 #8
The USA was more like Canada & Europe applegrove Apr 2013 #9
I think you're being a little bit unfair to your country Brimley Apr 2013 #10
Interesting take BainsBane Apr 2013 #11
The problem with Canada is the people are too nice davidpdx Apr 2013 #12
Far, far more like Canada. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2013 #13
It's "weird" in that it's far higher than the EU average. So is Canada Recursion Apr 2013 #15
Well, I know Mexico is really trying to do a lot of reforms. Lobo27 Apr 2013 #14
We're retiring mimi85 Apr 2013 #16

LeftInTX

(25,317 posts)
1. Kick
Fri Apr 26, 2013, 12:35 AM
Apr 2013

Interesting. I think we are trending more toward Mexico, whereas 30 years ago we were closer to Canada.

Mexico has an income equality issue that Americans like to poke at, but it seems like we are trending in that direction too. I know people from Mexico who complain about the poverty and how the money is in the hands of a few rich people.

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)
3. We should be more like Canada and Europe
Fri Apr 26, 2013, 12:45 AM
Apr 2013

We certainly have the wealthy to be, but our economic system and the influence of money on politics creates conditions that lead to dramatic inequality of wealth and high homicide rates. Note that in comparing homicide in particular, you are positing us against former war zones, like Central America, or countries like Mexico and Colombia, where violence has dramatically weakened state power. Then of course there is the fact that leftist ideologies and governments have real political potential in Latin America but not here.

Mainland Spanish America best fits your comparison for revolutionary independence movements, but most of the slave societies do not. Haiti truly was a revolutionary movement, but as a successful slave rebellion it shocked slaveowners throughout the Americas into understanding just how dangerous independence movements could be. That is a big part of the reason you didn't see successful armed movements for independence in other slave societies like Cuba, Puerto Rico, and Brazil, which the exception of Bahia where ironically it was slaves and freedpeople who took up arms to expel the Portuguese from the city.

Art_from_Ark

(27,247 posts)
4. There was some slavery in Europe
Fri Apr 26, 2013, 12:53 AM
Apr 2013

It was outlawed in France during the French Revolution (around the same time it was being outlawed in Rhode Island), and in England in 1833 (although it was allowed to survive about a decade longer in some parts of the Empire like Ceylon and India). What differentiates it from American slavery is that it was not region-based within the mother country, and did not make up a substantial part of the economy in the mother country, like it did in the Old South.

Blue_In_AK

(46,436 posts)
6. Living in Alaska,
Fri Apr 26, 2013, 01:03 AM
Apr 2013

it seems a lot more like Canada up here, but I'm sure that's just the climate and culture. I wish Alaska was part of Canada. It makes more sense.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
7. Very interesting! This has been on my mind a lot. These sorts of things.
Fri Apr 26, 2013, 01:05 AM
Apr 2013

WTF Greenland and homicide rate!?! Who knew?

applegrove

(118,652 posts)
9. The USA was more like Canada & Europe
Fri Apr 26, 2013, 01:21 AM
Apr 2013

in the past. It is heading in the direction of Latin America even as Latin America improves its inequality. Brazil may pass the USA going in the opposite direction one day soon.

 

Brimley

(139 posts)
10. I think you're being a little bit unfair to your country
Fri Apr 26, 2013, 01:53 AM
Apr 2013

Let's look at population density: Mexico is #1 among the three, with my country in last place, even though we're #1 in geographic area. People with less personal space must adjust accordingly, and that includes mindset as well as societal structure.

My country is vast, and vastly underpopulated. That sets off a different socioeconomic paradigm from the get-go.

Your country. America. Well.

I am very honest in saying I admire you people. I am equally honest in saying the reason I admire you people is that you are totally FUCKING insane! What industrialized country on Earth is still debating evolution? What other country allows the open display of flags which commemorate the most shameful part of its past? (Hey, try hoisting a swastika in Germany. You WILL be arrested.) What other country believes it normal to have people walking around in public, going into schools, going into malls, going into churches with loaded handguns on them???

But, insanity is a two-way street. I mean, seriously, in the late 18th century, what would make a group of farmers with no former military organization think they could rise up and expel the British Empire---the most powerful since Rome itself---from their little collection of Ruritanias? Ridiculous!

And why the Hell would two brothers from a hick town in Ohio think they could do what people had dreamed of from the time before civilization, building a machine that could fly like the birds do? Preposterous!

And what fucking LUNATIC came up with the idea---ladies and gentlemen, suppress your guffaws!---that men could, one day, walk on the Moon??? Oh Stop It! You're killing me!

Your weaknesses and your strengths are not opposed, my American friends: They are fused into the alloy of your national character. Thus, despite all the justified praise and the equally-justified condemnation, it is you, the United States of America, which best represents all off humankind: The bad, the good, and everything in between.

What shall ye choose? (Just to take the pressure off, I wanna remind you that the fate of all humanity rests upon your decision. Happy Friday.)

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)
11. Interesting take
Fri Apr 26, 2013, 02:03 AM
Apr 2013

"I am very honest in saying I admire you people. I am equally honest in saying the reason I admire you people is that you are totally FUCKING insane." You sum us up pretty well.

I do wish we could excise the militarism. I often think that it would be great to be a nice country that minds its own business, like Canada.

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
12. The problem with Canada is the people are too nice
Fri Apr 26, 2013, 02:24 AM
Apr 2013

and that is a compliment. I've met very few Canadians that I've disliked. My dad's side has a Canadian connection through his father (and it's clear the nice genes skipped a few generations). I grew up in Oregon and only went up to Canada once, when I was young and my great grandfather was dying. I have just a few passing memories of the trip. While I keep saying I'm going to come visit, I've just never made it.

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)
13. Far, far more like Canada.
Fri Apr 26, 2013, 03:09 AM
Apr 2013

There's nothing weird about your income per capita, it's just high. Showing a result you don't want isn't weird. And it's a better measure of similarity than the three you've linked put together.

Also, in terms of the rule of law and lack of corruption, you're much more like Canada than Mexico.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
15. It's "weird" in that it's far higher than the EU average. So is Canada
Fri Apr 26, 2013, 03:25 AM
Apr 2013

So, yes, in that way we're like Canada and UAE and unlike Latin America or Europe.

Lobo27

(753 posts)
14. Well, I know Mexico is really trying to do a lot of reforms.
Fri Apr 26, 2013, 03:13 AM
Apr 2013

For example, I have an Aunt that lives down there, and not like it matters but yes she is a white woman from Mississippi. My uncle, her husband is from Monterrey, Mexico and he works for big cement company as a driver.

They have two kids, so they may get sick every once in awhile. Well, she recently told us that because he pays taxes, they all get free healthcare and his mom is covered as well. That blew our mind, to think that they have been able to set something like that up.

I know this probably has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but it just seems that our neighbor to the south is slowly improving. And at the same time we are slowly going backwards.

mimi85

(1,805 posts)
16. We're retiring
Fri Apr 26, 2013, 03:28 AM
Apr 2013

in Baja California, Mexico. Rosarito Beach. Can't walt. We already own a place on the beach. Gorgeous beaches, gorgeous men (whoops, I'm married, forgot for a minute, although he's fine with it), super friendly people. Great drinks and fabulous sunsets. And cheap! Best place for love, drinks, shopping and other men (as I said, I'm married, but he's totally cool with it as I mentioned before). One of the most fabulous places ever! Only a couple of years to wait. Sigh.

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