Why Can't We See That Boston Is More Like Newtown Than 9/11?

[Coyotl]

Why Can't We See That Boston Is More Like Newtown Than 9/11?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-alexander-meyers/boston-terrorism-newtown-shooting_b_3139500.html

A week of intense and rapid events in Boston. We are saturated after a flood of words and images. A clear description of what happened is emerging. White hat. Black hat. Two loaded bags infiltrated into the crowd. Boom. And again. Suspects on the run. One dead, the other captured. Beyond bare bones the detail, its sheer quantity, is uncanny. And still these chaotic and riveting scenes, where do they take us?

A bomb in the streets of Boston is something new. We judge the new by what we know. Only by saying what it looks like can we understand what it is. And it is from there -- appearance and belief -- that our reactions will, for good or for ill, take their course. That is why pretty much everything depends on what we see when we look at the screen. At that crossroads words and images catalyze and explode.

However charged with meaning, pictures do not speak for themselves. From shock to fear to terror. The story-machine of imagination stretches out from the image. It's the words and the wordsmiths that over and over tutor interpretation. That's what builds the doors and gateways of the public sphere, that's where choice chooses and action moves us.

......

[snooper2]

1. because one was done by a kid who was off his fucking meds

and the other was done by religous fucking nuts who probably should have been on meds--


I guess there is a connection

[sinkingfeeling]

21. If religion is the key to that, then let's ask what is the difference between

Christian extremist Eric Rudolph, who did serial bombings, and these two? Why didn't anybody charge Rudolph with 'terrorism by weapons of mass destruction'?

[snooper2]

28. I don't think those terms were floating around then, but in theory he should have been

[merrily]

29. Mindset became different after 911.

After 911, many things we would have called crimes before 911, including the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center, began to be referred to as "terrorism" or "domestic terrorism."

Besides, there have always been different rules for religious rightist criminals/terrorists who are not Muslim.

[Buzz Clik]

2. Not buying it.

Newtown was a guy who intended to kill people's babies one by one, and did so. Cold blooded murder. One at a time.

I would struggle to find anything as low as that. Planting a bomb and walking away is damned horrid, but not the pure evil we saw at Newtown.

[marions ghost]

3. Not the pure evil as at Newtown?

Murder is murder. Nothing less cold-blooded about the bombers. The guy who shot kids is worse than the guys who killed and maimed, walked around for two days acting like everything was normal, then shot a policeman dead point blank and threw more explosives at others?

Dead children are no sadder than dead young adults and severely injured adults.

You don't make any sense.

[WinniSkipper]

7. "Murder is murder"

Might want to check the criminal code on that.

Do you think Lanza and these guys are on the same mental footing?

[Buzz Clik]

9. +1

[marions ghost]

10. "same mental footing"

--clarify---

[WinniSkipper]

14. Sure

Let's say both Lanza and Suspect #1 lived.

Do you think Adam Lanza would have been adjudicated sane to stand trial? Do you think there was a chance he would not have been found sane? I personally think at most it would be 50-50.

Now ask yourself the same question about Tamerlan Tsarnaev. 100% could stand trial.

Therefore I would argue - murder is not murder. That the motivations of the two suspects are entirely different.

[marions ghost]

23. Mass murderers are insane sociopaths. Period.

--whatever is adjudicated is whatever the system at the time decides. If they can get an insanity defense for one guy and not the other--it does not mean the other perp isn't every bit as insane. They just can't prove it. Happens all the time.

Motivations are similar. "I'm frustrated, pissed off and I feel like killing some people" is what it boils down to, in both cases. And for both, a depressed, fatalistic view of their own life worth prevents them from caring what happens. All the arguments about "they do it for glory" don't wash to me. I don't even think it's that rational.

Neither Lanza nor #1 was sane.

[Junkpet]

32. It's just not that easy...

...to claim that all mass murderers are insane sociopaths. It's hard to think that Lanza had any other motivations but to kill and be killed. He knew he wasn't getting out of that school alive. On the other hand there are more than likely some level of political motivations by the Boston bombers. They had every hope to get away with it..and possibly continue it. That, right there, shows that they were cognizant of reality and that what they were doing was wrong, i.e., sane. It's extremely important for us to identify the distinctions between these different rampages because the motivations are so completely different.

[marions ghost]

43. There is no rationalization of either

unless you think that mass murder can in any way be taken to be a sane act.

Doesn't matter about whether they hoped they could get away with it or not. Lanza and the Tsarnaevs did not care about that. They knew they could be killed. Suicide by police is no better than self-suicide. Cognizant of reality? Nothing the Tsarnaevs did convinces me they were cognizant of reality in the way that say, a Mafia hitman is. They are all angry young sociopaths. Kill people I don't like, is the motive. Feel better no matter what happens. None of their motives were rational, unless killing innocents for your political beliefs is rational.

This is what people don't want to see in this. The similarity.

[WinniSkipper]

44. Very simplistic way of looking at it

And the easy way out.

These two incidents - the motivations - are not the same at all. And unfortunately for you - "they are all crazy" - the one size fits all, is not reality. It sounds nice, though.

[marions ghost]

46. I'm willing to believe they are different variants of insane

but definitely insane. There are no rational motives in either.

You might read up on the psychology of killers.

Not saying all killers are insane (some kill in self-defense, and other reasons that you could argue are rational).

All mass killers are insane. All are delusional. I stand by that. Doesn't matter how you want to slice and dice the motivations, point of view, or rationales.

[Junkpet]

47. No, YOU might want to read up on psychology. PERIOD

Like a hitman kills someone he's told to kill (i.e., someone's enemy, if not their own), for whatever purpose, these two (and moreover, just the older brother) felt that "Americans" were his enemy. Age, size, race, political affiliations do not matter as long as the primary qualification matches (i.e., being "American&quot . Mass murderers may have a higher propensity of being "insane", but the insanity shoe does not fit all.

Yes, like all killers, mass or otherwise, there's a combination of factors that drive someone to kill (discriminantly or indiscriminantly). If those factors have a basis in reality and the killer can be shown to know right from wrong, they are sane. Just because you couldn't do it doesn't mean that other sane people can't. Your definition of sanity or normalcy is not the basis for our legal system or general morality.

[marions ghost]

55. My definition of sane is "not the basis for our legal system or general morality"

If you think our legal system is entirely "moral" & just, I've got a python filled lot in Florida I want to sell ya.

If the court decides he's sane or insane, then that's how it will be judged. But that doesn't have a whole lot to do with whether he is actually "sane" or not. Happens all the time. Ask someone you consider an authority figure about it.

Does it really matter? He killed and maimed randomly. He is insane, but he probably can't get a lawyer good enough to ensure him a cushy place for the insane. He'll end up in supermax forever, if they don't go for the guillotine.

Prisons are alternate mental asylums. If anyone gets out of there with any sort of sanity after a long sentence, they're lucky.

I think the insanity shoe fits all mass killers (not all killers). So tell me a mass killer you don't think is insane?

[Buzz Clik]

8. Ok. It doesn't make sense to you. I explained it, you disagree. I'm fine with that.

But, I guess you also disagree with the OP who takes the opposition position that I took, which again disagree with your concept that "murder is murder."

[Sekhmets Daughter]

33. I'm not certain 'murder is murder' is accurate....

Many pilots in WW II reported being less emotional about the bombs they dropped on civilians unseen than soldiers on the ground who were faced with killing those they could see.

I think all murderers are short-circuited, but there is something viciously brutal about as person who can look into the face of their victims and kill them.

It has nothing to do with a perceived difference between dead children and dead young adults.

[marions ghost]

37. No difference in murderous intent

I think it's interesting that people make any distinction between mass murderers here--as if it's worse to kill when you look into the eyes of the victim than when you don't. Did they not kill the cop looking at him (and wound with intent to kill the other?) And if the hijack guy had been American and not Chinese....

I don't think the comparison to military killing is applicable.

I'm sure it is easier to drop bombs than be on the ground in combat but I don't think you can compare military people to mass murderers --because military killing is socially sanctioned and soldiers are trained to kill as their job (doesn't make it any easier when they have PTSD later).
It is not called a crime, though what Bushco did should be. It is sanitized. But still killing.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

42. I wasn't comparing military people to mass murders....

but to other military people and people in general. Nor am I comparing the end results of different murderers. I just think it is easier for someone to kill when not face to face with the victims and that those who do so are even more disturbed.

If you consider that the 9/11 hijackers faced all the victims on the airplanes, and that the Boston bombers saw at least two of their victims in advance, then Lanza/ Newtown have much in commonm with both of those events.

I think it is equally interesting that you can't see a distinction between a murderer seeing and not seeing his/her victim.

[marions ghost]

45. You are not a sociopath

like people who kill in cold blood. So it's hard to imagine the thinking. Lanza is not "more disturbed" than the Tsarnaevs. This type of killer does not "see" their victims--victims are targets of hate, not people like them. Empathy does not exist in this type of killer. Eye contact or no, they will kill.

Mass murderers do not connect with ("see&quot their victims in either case. They have become as cold as a soldier who knows he must kill the enemy (in self defense which is more rational, but still is cold killing). In the minds of mass murderers, their targets become their enemies, for their own sick reasons. They are in a war with Self, their dark side.

So if I read correctly it seems you are saying that the plane hijackers, the two bombers and Lanza
DO have much in common--which is what I am saying also. And I would add that the Columbine guys, the Norway killer, Aurora killer, Tucson, DC snipers, Va Tech all have much more in common than not. That is the scary part. We have a lot of time bombs ticking in disturbed young males around the world.

So maybe we agree.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

56. Yes, I think in a broad sense we do agree...

and a smaller number of disturbed females are lurking out there as well.

[marions ghost]

57. yes

usually the females are found around the acting out males--

I think of Lanza's mother, the Tsarnaevs mother (looking like an influence on them), sometimes it's a girlfriend or sister. On rare occasions it is a female killer like the guys. But for the most part the perpetrators are male.

I think there is an increasing problem, especially in America, but also in other countries, with frustrated narcissistic young men who develop without a conscience and are capable of committing atrocities.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

58. Oh! I had never before considered

the narcissistic aspect of their personalities. A personality disorder for which there is no real cure and which can require years of therapy just to bring awareness to the narcissist! It explains so much about those who commit these atrocities, as they fail to recognize any needs or desires but their own.

I believe we are beginning to see more female recruits in the foreign countries. I know I've seen things written about the growing number of young females seeking martyrdom.

[marions ghost]

59. The way I see it

is --not every narcissist is a sociopath, but every sociopath is a narcissist. Definite overlap. There is a fine line between the narcissist lack of empathy and self-focus, and the sociopathic complete lack of conscience and cruelty. It's in the same ballpark. They can do brain scans now that indicate sociopathic tendencies in the context of a psychological evaluation using other criteria.

Sociopaths & pathological narcissists can both appear to be functional in society and fool a lot of people. That's what is scary. Like in this case, the FBI can argue that they really didn't have cause to detain the guy. It can be very hard to predict who is going to snap and do something like this bombing. Older brother might have been predicted, but not with younger brother. And yet younger bro is just as sociopathic.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

61. I was thinking about just that since our last exchange...

not every narcissist is a sociopath, but every sociopath is a narcissist. I was tying to think of why I would miss the narcissistic aspect of their profiles.

The lack of predictability is what makes these cases so disturbing, indeed frightening. There are times I feel as though we are sitting on a giant pile of kindling, just waiting for the spark that will ignite the mass.

[marions ghost]

62. "Lack of predictability...waiting for the spark."

We are definitely on the same wave. Unfortunately.

--------

There are lots of interesting books out there on this topic of psychopaths/sociopaths. This is a good one I've read lately:

"The Wisdom of Psychopaths: What Saints, Spies, and Serial Killers Can Teach Us About Success"--by Kevin Dutton

One of Slate’s Twenty Overlooked Books of 2012

"In this engrossing journey into the lives of psychopaths and their infamously crafty behaviors, the renowned psychologist Kevin Dutton reveals that there is a scale of “madness” along which we all sit. Incorporating the latest advances in brain scanning and neuroscience, Dutton demonstrates that the brilliant neurosurgeon who lacks empathy has more in common with a Ted Bundy who kills for pleasure than we may wish to admit...

Dutton argues that there are indeed “functional psychopaths” among us—different from their murderous counterparts—who use their detached, unflinching, and charismatic personalities to succeed in mainstream society, and that shockingly, in some fields, the more “psychopathic” people are, the more likely they are to succeed. Dutton deconstructs this often misunderstood diagnosis through bold on-the-ground reporting and original scientific research as he mingles with the criminally insane in a high-security ward, shares a drink with one of the world’s most successful con artists, and undergoes transcranial magnetic stimulation to discover firsthand exactly how it feels to see through the eyes of a psychopath."

[Sekhmets Daughter]

64. Good! We can be scared together!

Thanks for the rec of the book. I just downloaded it to my Kindle.

I've known several highly successful people who seemed psychopathic at times. I'm sure I'll find this fascinating reading!

[marions ghost]

65. Not to mention the psychopaths we know

only by their actions in government office...and the bloody trail they leave on their rise to the top.

Once you see the pattern, you can recognize it. I'm hoping more people will see it in future. It helps to understand the pathology. I find that empowering.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

66. Yes indeed...

empowering is the exact word...once you identify the enemy, you can plan their defeat!

[marions ghost]

67. Yes

[Sekhmets Daughter]

68. I don't have that smiley...

but it's been nice meeting someone who thinks the same way!

[marions ghost]

69. I posted this in another thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022743611

Harris & Klebold:

"The killers, in fact, laughed at petty school shooters. They bragged about dwarfing the carnage of the Oklahoma City bombing and originally scheduled their bloody performance for its anniversary. Klebold boasted on video about inflicting "the most deaths in U.S. history." Columbine was intended not primarily as a shooting at all, but as a bombing on a massive scale. If they hadn't been so bad at wiring the timers, the propane bombs they set in the cafeteria would have wiped out 600 people. After those bombs went off, they planned to gun down fleeing survivors. An explosive third act would follow, when their cars, packed with still more bombs, would rip through still more crowds, presumably of survivors, rescue workers, and reporters. The climax would be captured on live television. It wasn't just "fame" they were after—Agent Fuselier bristles at that trivializing term—they were gunning for devastating infamy on the historical scale of an Attila the Hun. Their vision was to create a nightmare so devastating and apocalyptic that the entire world would shudder at their power."

"The Depressive and the Psychopath"

This really excellent article about the psychology & motives of Harris and Klebold is at:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/assessment/2004/04/the_depressive_and_the_psychopath.html

------
So now I am signing off--but good talking to you too. Stay sane. Not easy in this world, but it helps to know others have the same concerns & POV.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

70. Thanks for the info...

You stay sane as well!

[Skidmore]

5. That is one of the most disgusting bits of moral relativism I've ever read anywhere.

Whether you look a little kid in the face when you pull a trigger or sit on a stoop while triggering a bomb in the midst of a crowd of strangers and then walk away, there is no difference. Callous, cold, impersonal evil. Not one is better or more redeemable than the other.

[Buzz Clik]

6. "disgusting bits of moral relativism"? What a fucking drama queen.

Jesu Cristo, is it possible for you to disagree with someone without going into histrionics?

(this is where you alert my post to prove my point ... 3, 2, 1...)

[riderinthestorm]

11. This is rich irony...

... after the hyperbole meted out in DainBramaged's thread.

It SHOULD be possible to disagree with someone without going into histrionics but that doesn't seem to happen here anymore.

[Buzz Clik]

17. Still pouting?

That is ironic.

[riderinthestorm]

30. LOL. You would think that...

[Skidmore]

13. Wrong, slick.

This where I let my words stand and you try to explain to the rest of us the gradations of evil and when murder is acceptable.

[Buzz Clik]

16. I said precisely what I meant, and I stand by it without further explanation.

A civil disagreement should be possible without dishing out insults. You're absolutely free to insult the holy hell out of me -- just don't expect me to run away or cower.

[Skidmore]

18. Your moral relativism certainly does stand on its own merits.

You need say nothing else.

[stevenleser]

19. I agree with you. Its totally different to stare at a 5 yr old child down the barrel of a gun

and then pull the trigger versus drop a package with a timer in a crowd and walk away.

Not only that, Lanza individually stared at twenty 5-yr olds, one at a time and pulled the trigger. You have to be completely without empathy to do something like that. Zero feelings, zero regard for humanity.

A bomber can engage in all kinds of rationalizations about those who he may or may not harm. He doesnt have to stare at them while he takes their lives.

[Buzz Clik]

22. ..

Thanks. You risk much agreeing with a disgusting moral relativist, but life is full of potholes.

And, by the way, you stated the case far better than I.

[marions ghost]

25. A bomber might be more cowardly

but that does not make him more rational or have any more regard for humanity.

Zero empathy, zero regard for humanity, in both cases.

They looked down the barrel of a gun at that poor young cop and they would have killed more (and said they would have killed the guy whose car they hijacked). I think they had a lot more killing planned.

Ridiculous to say there is any difference between Lanza, and Tsarnaev #1 & 2.

Let's look at the similarities--young sick males from disturbed backgrounds. Both with influence from extremist ideas--Lanza's mother a Prepper and the Tsarnaev fundy Islam. Much more alike than different.

[Junkpet]

35. ...and yet...

...the hijacked the guys vehicle and ended up dropping him off because he "wasn't American". That explains the differences pretty clearly to me. Additionally, #2 went back to school the next day and didn't off anybody. These two brothers were completely sane and had completely different motives than Adam Lanza.

[marions ghost]

39. incorrect

They did not drop the Chinese guy off. He says they were running out of gas, pulled into a station, and both got out to fill up and while one was inside, the Chinese guy jumped out and ran for it with Tsarnaev cussing at him. This was just after they killed one cop and wounded the other (intended to kill him).

Neither of the brothers is completely sane. They are both completely messed up. Sociopathic is insane. You can split hairs all you want about motives. The motive was the attraction of killing and how that gives a sociopath a feeling of power and release of intolerable tension. Temporarily.

Jails are partly mental institutions.

[Junkpet]

50. incorrect...

...only the MIT officer was shot prior to the carjacking. Additionally, the victim of the carjacking has said that the older Tsarnaev brother told him that they wouldn't kill him because he wasn't "American". At that point they still had delusions of slipping away or they would have just killed that guy on the spot as they are accused of doing to the MIT officer. Whether or not the carjack victim was released or escaped seems like splitting hairs because they apparently weren't too concerned about him. Non of these actions are the actions of bloodthirsty killers...they are acting much more like contract killers who's mission was to kill Americans and escape. Their motive was obviously not just to kill, but to complete their mission killing Americans/causing fear and potentially fracturing the American way of life and escape in any way possible.

[marions ghost]

54. you lost me at splitting hairs

over whether they are "bloodthirsty" killers or contract killers.

Pretty sloppy for contract killers. The smart thing would be to leave town right away. One guy even had his car in the shop. Delusional--bingo. Young, deranged and badly twisted.

"fracturing the American way of life"? No, you might be thinking of 9-11. That was the fracture.

[Skidmore]

26. Both objectified their victims and did not see their humanity.

Essentially they are the same in their disregard for humanity. I'm certain that Lanza would have rationalized his actions had he survived. I do believe that the Tzarneav had the crowd in his field of vision when he detonated those bombs by phone. Neither action is one whit different than the other.

[riderinthestorm]

31. The Boston bombers stared right into Jeff Bauman's eyes and placed the bag.

Or the 8 year old Martin who was killed, he was right next to the bomb. They had to have looked right at him.



Jeff Bauman actually provided eye witness testimony because they DID stare right at him.

[marions ghost]

40. Right

they knew who their victims were. They were every bit as satisfied with themselves as Adam Lanza in a shooting gallery.

[HappyMe]

38. That makes a hell of a lot of sense.

[avebury]

51. One has to wonder if the kid that did the Newtown

shootings might have acted differently if the Boston Marathon bombing had happened first. Mass shootings are very much a copy cat crime. Will the BM bombings become a copy cat crime for other crazy people?

[reformist2]

4. Because it's not. Terrorism has the potential to be truly catastrophic.

[LeftInTX]

12. Well, I certainly would not compare it to 9/11

You can't compare a home made bomb to a well financed, organized group who took flying lessons, hijacked huge planes, and became kamikaze pilots

[Nye Bevan]

15. So stupid. Boston and 9/11 were motivated by Islamic extremism.

Newtown was perpetrated by a mentally ill guy who had access to a large arsenal of weapons.

[still_one]

49. But it is not politically correct to say it is motivated by Muslim

extremism no matter what the facts are or the perpetrators say

[Cleita]

20. Cuz there's ferriners involved who are also Muslim.

Sacre bleu! Hair on Fire!

[onenote]

24. Maybe because its not

If the Tsarnaev brothers could've figured out a way to blow up an entire building in New York City instead of Boston, I have little doubt that they would've done that rather than simply drop a couple of pressure cooker bombs on the sidewalk during the marathon. They wanted to wreak as much havoc and cause as much death and injury as they could and the Boston marathon presented them with the easiest, most convenient target for doing that within their limited capabilities. They had no particular grudge against the marathon or the people that were killed and maimed. Exacly what motivated them is still emerging, but that much seems to be clear. On the other hand, I have little doubt that if Adam Lanza had been given the choice of blowing up a department store in Newtown and shooting first and second graders, he would still have chosen the latter. He had specific targets in mind. Why? Also still emerging. But it appears likely to be some specific grievance that he perceived that he associated with that school and/or school children or their families.

[stillcool]

27. I think it's more

like the DC sniper then anything else.

[zipplewrath]

36. Or Columbine

The primary difference between these events was competence and efficiency. Columbine tried to make bombs but failed. Ultimately it was about a few guys that wanted to lash out. We'll never know, but the older brother was about the right age for the onset of schizophrenia. That could give it more in common with Newtown.

[wercal]

34. Its a loaded question

Why is being comparable to 9-11 the litmus test? Surely some acts which don't match up to 9-11 are considered terorrism, right?

And it doesn't really matter. Lanza is dead of course, so I'll use the Aurora bomber as an example. He's been charged with murder and attempted murder...and if convicted will be imprisoned/institutionalized until he attains room temperature.

So will the Boston bomber.

So what does it matter what they are charged with?

But after clearing those too hurdles...I'll bite.

After Newtown and Aurora, we saw terrible images on TV - but neither caused me to lock my door at night. These were succinct criminal acts.

Boston was a bit different. First, doing it at a high profile event for maximum live coverage is a calling card of terrorism. Second, they well....um...'terrorized' the neighborhood. You know, planting additional bombs a few nights later...an entire city with their doors locked and businesses closed. It directly affected the movements, ability to go to work, and ability to do business for a couple million people - classic terrorism.


And, I think it leaves a wider door for various conspiracy type charges, if it turns out they had assistance from a third party.

[Lex]

41. Strikes against innocent human beings by someone with a "cause"

and I don't care if it's religious extremism or some crap that only exists in someone's mind (like McVeigh or the Newtown kid killer).

They are all alike in that way.

[still_one]

48. Because it isn't. Boston was an attack because of hatred for Americans and their

action in the Middle East according to the bombers

[JI7]

71. that was BS , there is nothing to show they had issues with our foreign policy

everything we know shows the older brother got worse as he kept having personal failures.

[still_one]

72. From all accounts, they were upset about Iraq and Afghanistan, and in the older brothers own words

he did not like Americans

[DCBob]

52. I think its more like Columbine.

Two young men confused, angry, misfits, with few friends and feeling they have nothing to lose.

[ileus]

53. Because it's not?

[Lizzie Poppet]

60. Oh, I dunno...maybe because it isn't?

[datasuspect]

63. is oklahoma city a red headed stepchild in all this?