A massive manhunt and siege in West Texas now?

[Playinghardball]

[onenote]

1. Is there a need for one?

Is there someone running from the police?

No, there's not.

So this is just more of the same logic-less nonsense we've seen here before.

Could you at least try to be original?

[villager]

4. -1

n/t

[zappaman]

5. +2

to offset the -1.

[villager]

8. -3

The numbers make neither you, nor the deliberately point-missing reply, right.

Or even part of the intended conversation, actually.

[zappaman]

29. That cuts both ways.

+4

[Javaman]

96. - infinite.

I win.



this is ridiculous.

[zappaman]

106. Hey, you started it so you must think it means something.

+infinity...squared.

[Javaman]

109. I'm rubber your glue...nt

[southernyankeebelle]

7. Oh I dunno, you need to take a chill pill friend. He is right you know. If a terrorist off

the street could have gotten into that warehouse he/she could have moved that stuff closer so it could make it a bomb. Yes it is an accident. However, the CEO of the company is responsible and should be arrested knowing what his company has done was wrong. If I were the citizens I would have a class action suit against this company. Make them an example when you knowningly do something that they aren't suppose to do then you pay the fiddler. So I agree with his sign.

[Rex]

26. I dunno is the CEO in custody that owned the plant?

Is he being held by police for questioning? No and no. Not nonsense, you just don't like the message and ya some of it is embellishing (we don't need a siege, just clean up) BUT the point still remains.

I DOUBT the CEO will spend one SECOND in a police station. That is NOT how America(tm) works.

[onenote]

28. Ever hear of Don Hughart? I kinda doubt it.

He's an executive at Massey Energy who was charged with, and pled guilty to criminal acts related to the Massey mine disaster. Gary May is another official who has been convicted. There is a good chance that the feds may bring charges against former Massey CEO Don Blankenship.

And they managed to do that not only without any manhunt or siege, but also without having to hold anyone for questioning and without placing anyone into custody immediately after the mine disaster.

How could they manage to pull off such a feat while they had to have a manhunt and siege after the Boston bombings?

BECAUSE AS ANYONE WITH A FUCKING OUNCE OF SENSE CAN TELL, THE TWO SITUATIONS AREN'T REMOTELY COMPARABLE.

[Rex]

33. Wrong.

Sorry if the OP rubbed you the wrong way.


EDIT - and how many are in prison for their crimes? Blankenship will NEVER be in jail for his crimes. Nice try but fail.

[onenote]

36. I don't think you know what the word "wrong" means.

At least that's what the available evidence indicates.

[Rex]

38. You just listed people that are not in jail

so no you are not doing anything here but proving my point, thanks btw.

[onenote]

39. that would ccme as a shock to gary may.

Who is serving a 21 month sentence. And Don Hughart is scheduled to be sentenced in June. And Blankenship may yet face charges. So thanks for proving MY point, which is that the two situations aren't remotely comparable. Oh, and when he entered his guilty plea at the end of February, Hughart specifically implicated Blankenship as a co-conspirator and the feds are being very coy about what their next move is going to be, but it is widely assumed that going after Blankenship is very much on the table. But you seem to have a nifty crystal ball that says Blankenship will never face the consequences of his acts. Could you also tell me who is going to win the World Series?

The bastards that failed to maintain a safe workplace in West Texas are far from off the hook and I hope and expect that they will fac serious jail time for their actions and inactions; at the same time, unlike the Boston bombers, they don't pose an immediate threat to the public nor is there any indication that they are a flight risk. Try as you might, the facts just get in the way of your rant.

[JDPriestly]

46. Perhaps you did not understand the OP? Response to OneNote.

It is a cartoon. It is sarcasm. It takes a situation, depicts it by carrying the content of the situation to an extreme -- intentionally. It isn't supposed to be 100% "true." Its truth is on a higher level that requires the ability to understand metaphor, contrast and similarity. It is supposed to make you think.

The OP and its cartoon point out that the two situations, one in Boston and the other in West Texas, do have something in common. In each of them people died. In the West, Tex. situation far more damage was done and more people may have died than in the Boston one. And in each of those situations, the deaths were not due to natural causes, but to human conduct. So that is one similarity in the two situations.

Since the Boston one was "terrorism" or murder of the kind in which the "terrorist" or murderer is easily identified as a public enemy, as a criminal or worse, whereas the West Tex. situation involved people in suits who simply neglected to do their jobs or perhaps a criminally neglected to do their jobs or who were sloppy and permitted sabotage to happen, we get very excited about the "terrorism" and angry at the "terrorists" in Boston. We don't get nearly so upset and aren't nearly as interested in the deaths in West, Tex. Now maybe you are, but most Americans aren't as upset by the one as by the other.

We spend enormous amounts of money and energy investigating murders and terrorist acts if they are done with bombs or guns.

We spend next to nothing on enforcing regulations that could make chemical companies such as the one in West Tex. safe for their employees and surrounding communities.

The message is we should do more about passing and enforcing regulations such as those governing fertilizer companies.

Now I've said in six paragraphs what the cartoon tells you in a glance.

I think the cartoon is very effective. I think there are people who criticize the cartoon because they don't like or agree with its message.

Let's use our intelligence here please. The OP is great in my opinion.

[mikeysnot]

54. I concur

two explosions, two different handling by the authorities...

Let's just throw BP on the heap also..

[onenote]

61. I understand it. I just don't agree with it.

Yes it is a cartoon. Yes the two situations it addresses have a similarity: they involved conduct that caused death and human suffering. In both cases the conduct was reprehensible. In both situations the conduct should be punished. I don't know of anyone claiming otherwise.

But the OP takes these similarities and glosses over an important difference -- one that society recognizes and the law recognizes. We do not regard or respond identically to intentional acts and to acts that are the result of a reckless disregard for life. To give an example: we do not regard or respond the same to someone who, with extreme reckless disregard for the life of their children or those of their neighbors, and for the sake of saving a few bucks, doesn't secure their swimming pool as we respond to or regard the person who grabs a kid and throws that kid in a pool and holds the kid under water with the specific, deliberate intent of killing that child.

Some may argue we should treat those two circumstances exactly the same. But I think they are different and trying to equate them in an effort to argue that we should take the reckless action more seriously than we do strikes me as a poor way to make the argument.

[JDPriestly]

113. But how can you assume what the intent was in the fertilizer factory?

To me there are instances in which failing to follow regulations that are intended to protect the safety of employees equals intent to maim or kill.

Think asbestos. Those companies knew that large quantities of asbestos could kill people who were regularly exposed to it.

A person who runs a fertilizer factory most likely knows very well that there is a great danger of an explosion. Was this the first explosion in that plant? The first fire?

A person who runs a fertilizer factory most likely knows the chemistry of his products. Flammability is one of the well known characteristics of certain chemicals like fertilizers.

Most corporate or professional farmers probably know that about the fertilizers they use.

Conscious disregard of the safety of others and criminal neglect can kill, and when they do, it makes no difference to the victims and their families whether the killing was intentional or not. It may make a difference to a judge or a jury, but not to those who are dead. There is the law and then there is life and human sentiment.

[sabrina 1]

82. Blankenship, a real terrorist, will never be prosecuted. He has too many friends in power and too

much money. All criminals should be prosecuted. Bush, Cheney, Rice, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld and the rest of the war criminals who killed and terrorized so many, many innocent people. But we would have to be an actual civilized democracy for that to happen. So it will not.

CEOs are protected no matter how criminally negligent they are. 11 men died in the Gulf explosion and we KNOW it was criminal negligence, but no one was charged with manslaughter in those eleven cases. Yet they are still dead and they should not be.

[onenote]

83. Well, hate to break it to you but you couldn't be more wrong about the Gulf explosion

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2012/November/12-ag-1369.html

If you know so much about these things, how could you get something like this so wrong?

[sabrina 1]

85. The supervisors are charged with manslaughter. The Corporation admits to manslaughter but is fined

rather than banned from operating in the US ever again. Fines are just part of their operating budget. That corp has been responsible for more than these deaths. They have destroyed whole communities in other countries, hired thugs to brutalize native people who protest their destruction of their environments. This was finally an opportunity to nationalize our oil industry and end the profiteering which puts money before people.

And the offshore drilling ban, lifted by the President just 18 days before this terrible tragedy, should not only be reinstated, it should have been strengthened. And then a commitment to reducing our dependence on oil by replacing it with other sources of energy, should have immediately begun. Australia eg, now provides 5% of its population's energy with alternative energy.

I am glad someone is being held accountable, but the Corporation itself has a history of these tragedies and should be banned from operating in this and any other country where they have caused so much damage.

[ctsnowman]

97. +1

Corporations are people too my friend.

[Sgent]

64. BP workers charged with manslaughter in deadly Deepwater Horizon Gulf blast

Two men who worked for BP during the 2010 Gulf oil spill disaster have been charged with manslaughter and a third with lying to federal investigators, according to indictments made public Thursday, hours after BP announced it was paying $4.5 billion in a settlement with the U.S. government over the disaster.

A federal indictment unsealed in New Orleans claims BP well site leaders Robert Kaluza and Donald Vidrine acted negligently in their supervision of key safety tests performed on the Deepwater Horizon drilling rig before the explosion killed 11 workers in April 2010.

The indictment says Kaluza and Vidrine failed to phone engineers onshore to alert them of problems in the drilling operation.Another indictment charges David Rainey, who was BP's vice president of exploration for the Gulf of Mexico, on charges of obstruction of Congress and false statements. The indictment claims the former executive lied to federal investigators when they asked him how he calculated a flow rate estimate for BP's blown-out well in the days after the April 2010 disaster.

Rainey's lawyer said his client did "absolutely nothing wrong." And attorneys for the two rig workers accused the Justice Department of making scapegoats out of them.

------

The problem with the financial institutions is that they have to prove criminal intent to charge them with fraud. They have charged some of the lower level people, but intent is hard to prove if an executive has plausible deniability. Hence Sarbanes-Oxley which removes those requirements. Of course DU is fine with ex post facto laws when they damage people they don't like.

[rhett o rick]

60. Do I understand you are choosing to stand with the corporate killers? nm

[onenote]

62. If you're talking to me, the answer is no.

I think that they should be punished severely. I expect they will. Will that punishment necessarily be the same as the punishment meted out to the Boston killers? I doubt it and I'm not particularly troubled by the fact that the law has long drawn a distinction between a willful, deliberate, intentional homicide (i.e. First Degree) and a homicide resulting from extreme recklessness (Second Degree).

[MineralMan]

2. I hadn't heard that the owners of that

fertilizer place were fugitives. Can you link to something that says they are?

If not, this is completely bogus.

[JDPriestly]

47. It's sarcasm.

[MineralMan]

66. Since you are not the OP,

I will not take your word for that. Sorry.

[truth2power]

99. I don't know whether Jonathan Swift wrote satire...

We can't ask him. He's dead.

[MineralMan]

100. And now we've moved two people beyond the OP.

The farther you go, the less you know.

[truth2power]

103. I have no idea what you're talking about, but anyone who posts on DU

should be able to recognize satire.

To the point, though, why shouldn't these companies who flaunt safety regulations be held to account the same as people who set off bombs in a public place?

Criminality in both cases.

[MineralMan]

105. They will be held to account. That doesn't happen

overnight, though. First, an investigation has to be done to determine exactly what happened and why. In the case of a disastrous fire and explosion, this can take a long time. If the company is insured, which it certainly should be, claims will be filed by those who were affected. More investigations will take place before those claims are paid.

Lawsuits will certainly result from this and similar disasters. In today's legal environment, those can take a very long time to be decided.

Criminal charges? Well, those occur, as well, but not until all the investigations are done.

The reality is that, by the time things happen, we will all have forgotten about this. The people affected will not have forgotten, though, and the accounts will remain to be settled.

It looks like this business owner violated some laws that require reporting things. Penalties for such violations are usually fines, though. Unless some criminal negligence caused this explosion, it is unlikely that the owner will be doing any time in jail or prison. But, we won't know that for months or years.

The bottom line is that owners of businesses have a responsibility to operate legally and safely. Some do, and some don't. But even the ones that do operate completely withing regulations and laws can experience a destructive fire or even a devastating explosion. It happens many times a year in the United States and elsewhere.

Investigations are underway. I'm not part of those investigations, so I don't have a lot of information about why what happened in West, Texas happened. Perhaps I'll find out, but I may have forgotten about this incident because of others before that information is available.

[JDPriestly]

112. It seemed easy enough to figure out to me.

[indepat]

3. Realization of a right-wing wet dream: laizze-faire capitalism run amok

[xtraxritical]

42. Even worse if capitalism is completely laizze-faire it immediately

degrades to fascism (which it has in the USA even with regulation).

[villager]

6. Fascinating, the deliberate missing-of-the-point in this thread

n/t

[onenote]

10. So you're saying the point about whether there is a manhunt was completely irrelevant to the thread.

Dumb thread.

[villager]

11. Apparently not so dumb as to keep you from participating in it

...though coming into the thread with an intact sense of humor would help...

[LanternWaste]

17. As I'm not very clever (nor pretend to be)...

As I'm not very clever (nor pretend to be), you will be forthcoming in allowing us this point most relevant point you allude to rather than simply dangling it on a stick, yes?

And you will of course, illustrate for us the relevant transference of meaning from one to the other particular subject (in other words, an analogy) for those of us who don't pretend to be clever or have a heavy-handed dogmatic ax to wield, yes?

[JDPriestly]

49. Please see my post at number 46. If I didn't get the number right, please check for my posts on

this thread. I explain for the "not very clever," your words not mine.

I take it you are having a bad day.

[former9thward]

9. These disasters happen in every economic system.

Do you really think the only place there are industrial accidents is in capitalist countries?

[villager]

12. Do you really think a record of ignoring environmental regulations and safety standards....

....should just be dismissed out of hand as "business as usual?"

[former9thward]

14. Did you do a lot of work building up that strawman?

Nothing will be dismissed. It will be investigated thoroughly and there will be sanctions if any regulations were violated. I suspect there will also be civil suits.

[villager]

19. yes. we are living in a golden age of corporate responsibility.

Sorry that I overlooked such an obvious fact.

[former9thward]

50. Whether the corporation is responible or not is besides the point.

There will be investigations by multiple government agencies. Either they followed regulations or they didn't. Now if you think all these agencies and courts are all bought out by the corporations then I guess we are at an end.

[villager]

76. for some of us, it's the exact point

n/t

[0rganism]

27. "sanctions" and "civil suits" are a far cry from having the guilty parties do time

just sayin'

we wouldn't tolerate a wealthy convicted criminal paying his way out of serving time, and doling out a tiny per-victim amount to settle a class-action civil suit for wrongful deaths. No one I associate with would be satisfied with that scenario, but corporate crooks pull this shite all the time and walk away with their stock options intact, even when their gross negligence kills as many people as a standard-issue massacre.

[former9thward]

48. If there was a crime then they will do time.

What crime do you think was committed?

[JDPriestly]

53. We should prevent these incidents.

4 million working Americans are injured in the workplace each year.

4,609 Americans were killed in the workplace in 2011.

http://www.osha.gov/oshstats/commonstats.html

The investigation may show criminal neglect, may show just ordinary neglect, may show sabotage, who knows? But, as a nation, we should have done more to prevent it.

[former9thward]

58. Yes.

I just replied to you elsewhere about the problem. When I was working in Chicago for OSHA I was on a first name basis with the workers at the Cook County morgue because I had to go down there so often investigating workplace deaths.

[MineralMan]

13. Do you really think?...

That is the salient question to ask that poster. Industrial accidents happen everywhere. They're awful, and most could be prevented, but they happen everywhere, regardless of the political system where they happen.

China has them all the time, and so did the Soviet Union. They're very common in all industrial societies.

[former9thward]

15. Exactly my point.

The OP seems to be saying it is a "capitalist" problem. I reject that.

[MineralMan]

16. Yes. It should be rejected. Industrial accidents are caused

by industry. Industry can be dangerous. The entire premise for this thread is mistaken.

[zipplewrath]

18. Actually, the lack of regulation

Industrial accidents are most directly related to a lack of regulation. You can trace this back to the early days of the railroad industry where there was a significantly high accident and injury rate until the feds stepped in and started the heavily regulation of the industry. Probably the golden standard for safety regulation is the HIGHLY regulated industry of commercial passenger aircraft. We've gotten to the point where virtually every accident these days can be traced to some attempt or another to simplify/circumvent/relax a regulation of some sort or another.

Accidents happen in dictatorial governmental structures because there often is NO real regulatory environment, much as is often pursued by "pure" captialists. Capitalism shares a similar flaw with dictator/single party systems such as the USSR and China. Texas being a shining example where they brag about avoiding federal regulations.

Which is the point that many of you are working so hard to miss about the OP. You're searching for the imperfections in the metaphor, and avoiding the intended point about capitalistic regulatory structures (or lack thereof).

[MineralMan]

20. Of course a lack of regulation contributes to industrial accidents

and disasters. So does complacency on the part of people who run and work in industry. Poorly-operated businesses in small towns all around the world are accidents waiting to happen, regulatory laws or not. I'll give you an example:

A number of years ago, I was visiting my parents in my home town. My father, who was the chief of the local volunteer fire department, had to do an inspection on a business operating in that small California town. Since I was there, I went with him. The company, like the one in West, Texas, was mostly an agricultural supply company. It was located in a part of town that edged up to open farmland, and the business was across the street from a residential neighborhood, with cattle grazing land on the other side.

Well, my dad did a walk-through of the place with me trailing along. As we went through the business's warehouse area, I noticed a large number of 55-gallon drums, stacked pyramid fashion on the back wall of the warehouse area. So, I wandered over to see what sorts of things were in those drums. Afterwards, I took my father aside.

I counted 20 drums of acetone, mixed in with drums of liquid herbicides and pesticides in those pyramids. I pointed that out to my father, who took another look. Now, I'm no chemist, and neither is my father, but we both know how volatile acetone is and what a low flashpoint it has. When we talked about what might happen if there were a fire in that warehouse, fueled by acetone and heating and burning the herbicides and pesticides in the adjacent drums, it was clear that there was a disaster in the making. The wall where they were stacked was on the street facing the residential neighborhood. Such a fire would have been a nightmare for the small fire department and for the residents of that neighborhood.

Complacency. To make a long story short, the company was forced to cease operations at that location by order of the fire department and given 48 hours to remove all drums containing anything flammable or toxic. They did so, because you didn't screw with my father in that town when it came to hazardous fire-department related stuff. The entire company packed up and moved to another town.

The people running the business didn't even understand the hazard they had created. They were morons. They just sold the stuff to the local farmers and other businesses. In many towns, such a situation would not have resulted in any action being taken, and the company would have continued its operations.

[Fumesucker]

21. You appear to be saying that if you didn't happen to be with your father nothing would have happened

That doesn't really make me feel all that warm and fuzzy.

[MineralMan]

65. No, I am not saying that at all.

I do know more chemistry than my father, so I pointed that out to him. He hadn't gone yet to that area. He would have seen the same thing I did. The point was that the owners did not recognize the danger. Such situations exist everywhere.

[zipplewrath]

23. Complacency doesn't happen in a vacuum

Complacency exists where there is no/lax regulation. A place like Texas, where regulation is seen as contrary to the goals of capitalism, which is the OP's point.

[Wednesdays]

86. No, but a dirt bag happens in a vacuum.

Edit: and that just plain sucks.

[Stainless]

22. Industrial Accidents are Caused by Violations of Procedures

I retired after 43 years as an Industrial Designer. I worked in Industrial plants before OSHA existed. I've seen first hand how owners and managers cut corners and ignore regulations. The premise of this thread seems very valid to me. My experience includes design and construction management on facilities projects in mining and manufacturing, including explosives. The rules and regulations that the United States enforces are designed to prevent and minimize death, injury and property damage. When you have an explosion such as the one in Texas that was caused by willfully ignoring regulations then you have a case of criminal negligence. The owners belong in jail, but I doubt if anything other than a fine will be imposed.

[SunSeeker]

24. Yes, sadly true. The last fine they got was for $30. (yes, the decimal is in the right place)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Fertilizer_Company_explosion

[BobbyBoring]

35. It's even more dangerous when all the rules are broken

Plants that carry this much fertilizer (bomb making material) are required to disclose to DHS the amount they have on hand at any given time. DHS didn't know this place even existed until after the fact. They had way more on hand than they would have been allowed HAD they reported it.

These people just blatantly ignored the rules to increase the bottom line. I think that's what the op was implying~

[truebluegreen]

25. Interesting grouping:

China, and the Soviet Union, and cancer-stage capitalist 'Murica all have tight regulatory standards, great safety records and high regard for their workers and the population in general.

Not.

[Fumesucker]

31. Germany is an industrial society

I can't recall the last time I heard of a major industrial accident in Germany.

Certainly nothing on the order of this recent explosion.

[Art_from_Ark]

67. Well, there was an accident at a chemical plant in Oestrich-Winkel last year

that released poison gas into the atmosphere and local residents were advised to close their windows and stay indoors, but yeah, it was nothing compared to what happened in West, Texas.

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/giftgas-unfall-im-rheingau-verletzt-mehrere-feuerwehrleute-a-849870.html

[CBGLuthier]

98. Yeah but Germany has an advantage

All their factories are less than 70 years old thanks to Herr Hitlers urban renewal projects. The clever bastard got the US to foot the bill for the demolition work and the rebuilding.

[lsewpershad]

32. I'm not sure [MHO]

but I think when they find the the responsible person or persons they are usually executed... not suggesting this of coure but here money talks. Here When a poor bum is RESPONSIBLE for the death of another he usually spends long periods in prison [at least] while the robber, "murderous" barrons pay a relatively "minimal" fine and walks. More importantly he continues his business as usual.

[freshwest]

72. An issue that is usually overlooked is the relation between these employers and the towns.

In small towns like West, these firms are among the most stable employers for those involved in agriculture, which was once known as one of the most dangerous jobs to life and limb.

In order to maintain ownership of their family's rural homes and maintain those ties, the locals will take hazardous jobs. When the place is rebuilt, they will go back to work gratefully.

If the place shuts down, they lose their place in the country, where their families may have lived in for generations, be uprooted to a large city where they will be at the bottom in terms of employment.

They are proud of their lives where they are and don't see things the same as city people. I've seen people in rural areas work in terribly unsafe jobs, as it was the only employment.

The bottom line is they want to stay there where they can afford to live. Some are no more than high school educated. You may have seen different things, but this is what I've observed.

I'm not saying it's the best thing to do and I'm not excusing the employer. But I don't expect anyone to be coming after the owners. JMHO.

[LeftInTX]

75. This place only had 9-13 employees (the number varies between sources)

The local Ag agent said that the agriculture community enjoyed the products and services, but it wasn't a major job provider at all.

[freshwest]

79. Well, they may rebuild and they may let it go. Rebuilding it would make a few jobs for a while.

I still don't see any prohibitive punishment being meted out there. Fines, yeah. Isn't the state still under the 'voluntary' plan set up under the Shrub?

Bad idea, and I'm not even sure there is much of a regulatory mileau in the state anymore with Governor Goodhair and his faith-based approach. The things he's done are worse than GWB, but I left the state during his reign of dumbassery. What I've heard is all bad.

The state of Texas used to have a lot to say in terms of regulating so many things and it seems that all that knowledge base has been thrown away. What do you see happening here?

I understand the frustration and the attempt at equivalency, using the worlds terrorism in terms of financial institutions, this corporation, etc. but none of this is that simple.

Those who rail at the excesses of the financiers (I have suffered greatly under the shenanigans since the Reagan years) forget, or perhaps never knew, how horribly interwoven all of these things are. Not because they are all crooks.

But a cancer has grown since Reagan, the Randians have taken over and weakened the whole, yet it still staggers on. No one wants to see this go away, unless they are not in need of manufacturing to keep going. But the fertilizer factory, sheesh.

Without having ever gotten into large scale agriculture (more of a hobby farmer at best) I don't think these manufacturers are really worth while - but then again a large outfit might never be able to get enough needed nitrogen, etc. from natural sources. I did attend an ag college a few years and knew people getting their degrees - they are not dummies.

So I don't think this is going to change anything unless the public makes an uproar. How is the media handling this there?

I considered the Waco and Hill country to be progressive areas at one time.

[LeftInTX]

90. On a human scale, the media is very good

However, it's pretty much been about the lives lost and the town itself. A few bits and pieces about the dangers of ammonium nitrate, but nothing critical or hard hitting.

The investigation into this is slow. A little too slow, but maybe it's me. The owner did not have a comprehensive fire plan and that is what probably led to the lives lost. Apparently there were no sprinklers installed. Most of the lives lost were with the volunteer fire department. I read they were putting out a fire when the place exploded.

As for the actual inventory and location of ammonium nitrate and anhydrous ammonia - that information hasn't been made public either. One expert speculated that the ammonium nitrate was possibly in a rail car and not within the facility. The explosion happened at night and I think the facility was closed for the evening.

I do think that communities that have these facilities in their backyards are probably going to make sure that they are up to safety standards.

[freshwest]

91. I remember a bad pipeline explosion in what was then the lovely town of Brenham.

There are a lot of dangers that people don't know about. As I saw more things being handed off to the cheapest contractors, more accidents were happened. That started with Reagan, cheap labor and all that crap.

OSHA was weakened, so many things were lost when Carter was put out of office. We have a generation that never knew the kind of working conditions we once had, and how serious the regulators were about safety. And we didn't have such widespread wage theft as now.

From that first video, it appeared the fire was in a field outside the main buildings and the wind was high and it got into the areas with explosive materials, I doubt a sprinkler would have stopped it. The way the place blew was really something.

At this point I hope that those in rural areas and others, will be able to pressure these owners to do the right thing. It doesn't seem government workers are getting any respect down there.

I'm really appalled at what I head in the news. Everytime I go down to visit, it's not bad. But it just feels different, the emphasis isn't the same at all.

[LeftInTX]

93. I moved to Texas from Wisconsin when Reagan was president so it's alway seemed low regulation to me

Gosh, I remember our house was being built and if us girls walked outside the day laborers would start whistling etc. I kept thinking that the workers were probably getting paid not much over minimum wage. Very different from Wisconsin which is unionized.

When my husband started working as a teacher in 1985 he earned only $8,000 a year. Bill Clements was governor and he was a snake. Thank God Mark White was elected and he gave all the teachers a huge raise. My husband's salary went up to $17,000 the next year!

I agree that Perry is much worse than Bush. Perry spoke at one of my son's events when he was Lt. Gov. He arrived at this event with such pomp and arrogance and hair. The first thing my husband said was that he reminded him of a televangelist. Perry seems racist to me too.

[Ed Suspicious]

37. You say accident, I say willful negligence leading to tragic outcomes.nt

[snappyturtle]

55. Amen. nt

[JDPriestly]

52. We can do better. I heard a radio program about how little, how infinitesimal our budget

is for inspecting OSHA violations.

OSHA budget

FY 2011: $573,096,000
FY 2012: $583,386,000

OSHA inspections

FY 2011 Total Federal inspections: 40,648
FY 2011 Total 18(b) State Plan inspections: 52,056
[Source: OSHA Directorate of Enforcement Programs]

Worker Injuries, illnesses and fatalities

4,609 workers were killed on the job in 2011 [BLS revised 2011 workplace fatality data*] (3.5 per 100,000 full-time equivalent workers) — almost 90 a week or nearly 13 deaths every day. (This is a slight increase from the 4,551, fatal work injuries in 2009, but the second lowest annual total since the fatal injury census was first conducted in 1992).

. . . .

"Every day in America, 13 people go to work and never come home. Every year in America, nearly 4 million people suffer a workplace injury from which some may never recover. These are preventable tragedies that disable our workers, devastate our families, and damage our economy. American workers are not looking for a handout or a free lunch. They are looking for a good day's pay for a hard day's work. They just want to go to work, provide for their families, and get home in one piece."
– Secretary of Labor Hilda Solis, Workers Memorial Day speech April 26, 2012

http://www.osha.gov/oshstats/commonstats.html

Workplace deaths and injuries are a shameful problem in the U.S.

4 million workplace injuries per year.

[former9thward]

56. I agree.

As I have said on other threads I worked for OSHA for 14 years both as a supervisor and an inspector. The number of OSHA inspectors is about 700 nationwide. Given the millions of worksites in the U.S. each worksite could expect an inspection every 150 years or so. OSHA was started in 1970 by Nixon and no administration since then, including this one, has ever given the agency much support. (Also of course no congress, no matter who was in control, has given the agency much support).

[snappyturtle]

30. People are touchy here today, aren't they? I understand completely what

you're saying. This event in West, TX was just as terrifying as
the bombings in Boston. Authorities are still trying to get a handle
on the # of dead and missing....so it's STILL a terrifying event for
those families who have members unaccounted for or on their
death beds. Long way from closure here.

I hope we can all agree that this (West,TX) event is terrorism of
the local populace, not unlike that in Boston EXCEPT it was done
under the guise of deliberate disregard for regulation that our
capitalistic system seemingly excuses and punishes with fines.
Yes, the tragedy could happen under a different economic system.
I don't think your point was anything more than pointing out that
it happen to occur under our system, capitalism.

If the SCOTUS regards corporations as people then I think it's time
to write up the arrest warrants for the (capitalistic) terrorists.

Isn't it amazing that for all the 24/7 coverage of Boston happenings:
learning the names of the suspected terrorists, their families, backgrounds,
friends, education levels, and constant looped news that we know zilch
about the perpetrators (owners) of the West,TX plant. I don't even know
the name of the plant???? Could it be that for some reason that maybe
because a Muslim isn't involved that it's just not that important and
therefore not 'real' terrorism? (of course, all of this, imho.)

[onenote]

34. Is the guy that intentionally fails to lock the gate on his swimming pool

in violation of an ordinance requiring that he do so equally culpable in your mind if and when a child drowns in that pool as a guy that drags a kid to the pool and shoves him/her under the water and holds them there until they've drowned?

Is the owner of a taxi company that, in order to save a dime, fails to repair the brakes on his cab culpable to the exact same degree when that cab is unable to stop and runs over a child as is a driver that, in a perfectly functioning car, willfully runs their car into a crowd with the specific intent to kill and maim people?

Just curious if you see any difference.

[snappyturtle]

43. I know where you're going with this. Don't let the owner of the plant

off the hook! He knew the risk....he knew the volatility,,,,
he knew lives were at risk. He gambled. Others lost.

[onenote]

44. I have never suggested that he should or will be let off the hook

To the contrary, I've made it clear that I hope and expect that the owner of the plant will be held criminally responsible and serve time. But that doesn't mean that I'm concerned that he hasn't been arrested or charged yet. It took a long time for the government's investigation of the Massey mine disaster to result in criminal charges, but one person is serving time, one is awaiting sentencing, and the CEO was implicated in court as a co-conspiratator six weeks ago and it is thought that the feds are working on bringing criminal charges against him in the not too distant future.

[snappyturtle]

45. It just looked like you were making possible excuses for the owner.

Last edited Mon Apr 22, 2013, 07:07 PM - Edit history (1)

It's amazing that the owner's mug isn't on teevee! I am well
aware that the wheels of justice grind slowly unless........
you're a different kind of terrorist. imho

[onenote]

63. well, that would be a mistaken understanding of my point.

[snappyturtle]

71. You're telling me it "takes a while" to bring a corporate criminal to justice.

I know that. I'm suggesting that if the perpetrator is other
than corporate, justice moves right along. Need I give examples?

[onenote]

74. If the perpetrator has engaged in deliberate, premeditated, intentional murder, it definitely moves

along more quickly in the sense that there is a greater urgency to apprehend the person, particularly where there is a strong likelihood that they will continue to commit such acts and/or flee. Someone who engages in extreme reckless disregard for life by ignoring public safety regulations has engaged in reprehensible behavior, but is not as likely to be a flight risk and does not present the same risk as someone committing intentional acts of violence. If the CEO of the fertilizer plant was on one side of the street and the Boston bomber was on the other, which one do you think should be apprehended first?

Moreover, like it or not, its typically more difficult to make out a case of 2nd degree murder arising out of an industrial accident than it is to make out a case of intentional murder involving someone with a gun or a bomb. Proving causality, for example, can require expert witnesses etc. that are not needed in a typical first degree murder case.

Again, I'm not defending the fertilizer plant owners -- the government should pursue them vigorously for their extreme recklessness and seek criminal penalties for second degree murder. But to think that can be done quickly is not realistic. Even a first degree murder case, such as the one brought against McVeigh, took two years from the time of the bombing to conviction (and another four years until he was executed).

[snappyturtle]

77. Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

Maybe what I am getting at is that we need to change.
The owner of the plant is dangerous. Does he have more
stores of dangerous chemicals he's unreported to the
gov.t, e.g.? We've all ready had above 90 degrees here
west of Austin. The heat is coming.

Frankly, I wouldn't want to be the one (now that I know how
things have turned out) to decide which of the criminals to
apprehend first. I think they both need immediate attention.
The owner in Texas better be a long way away....Texans don't
like to be messed with any more than Bostonians, as I heard
repeatedly the last few days. For his own protection the law
should step in.

IF the Texas fire that started was set, letting time pass while
the legal beagles sort matters out isn't good. I can only hope
the law enforcement is seeking out individuals to come forward
with recall of any activity that might be regarded as suspicious.
And maybe they are but where's the news coverage?

Why can't we handle both with all expedience?

[onenote]

78. The company that owned the plant is a local company with a handful of employees

the owner lives in the same town.

My point is that some of the posts seem to think nothing is being done in response to this event -- that somehow the perpetrators are getting away with it and are doing it elsewhere. Well, others may be doing it elsewhere, but almost certainly not this company. In addition, the site was immediately secured as a crime site after the explosion and investigators from at least two federal agencies were on the scene almost immediately to start gathering evidence. People seem to want more done, but its not clear to me what more could be realistically to have been done in response to explosion at this point in time. The scene is secured. Investigations are under way. The owner of the plant has been identified and there is no indication that he's engaging in this same misconduct elsewhere. Waiting to bring charges after the evidence is gathered makes more sense to me than just arresting him while investigators are still gathering facts and building a case and then having him released on bond. If there was any evidence that he's a fight risk, it would be one thing, but there doesn't seem to be any such evidence.

[snappyturtle]

84. Thank you. You've told me more than I knew. I knew

the company is very small and that the owner is local. Where
have you learned the rest?

[LeftInTX]

92. Others on DU have sleuthed the company

It's very easy to do if you have any business savvy. I don't, but I read the info from other posts that linked to sites like this: http://www.manta.com/c/mm67kv5/adair-grain-inc
The company is a fertilizer depot. It has 9-13 employees depending on the source. It has revenues of $5-10 million per year.

[snappyturtle]

94. Thank you. I guess what I really don't understand is why

the M$M isn't falling all over itself to cover the story.
Doesn't anyone else think this is very odd?

[JeaneRaye]

40. paradise

Texas... a libertarian's paradise....except when they're the ones asking for Federal assistance. So tell me...when are they going to secede, anyway?

[snappyturtle]

51. OH how soon we forget. This country had G.W.Bush for President

for eight long years. I think a lot of us were stunned by
his occupation (by hook or by crook) of the WH. And, that's
not unlike what Texas is putting up with today with the
Governor. He's a hypocrit...what else can I say?

I do not think that the victims of the plant explosion should
be made to wait for assistance that could be tied up in years
of litigation. Do you think that Federal assistance is not
warranted? If Boston had been flattened like much of West, Tx
I don't think we'd think twice that the situation called for
assistance. Again, a duel standard. Seems to depend on who
does the terrorizing.


Welcome to DU.

[JeaneRaye]

104. I totally agree.

The victims of the plant explosion should receive assistance. My only point was that several of the Senators from Texas, namely Ted Cruz and someone named Flores, voted against disaster relief for the victims of Hurricaine Sandy but are now asking for relief for their own state. And yes, it is a dual standard. People in Texas who wish for secession, should keep in mind that if that happens, they are on their own.

[snappyturtle]

107. I totally agree with you too! The secession thingie?

It's just chest thumping by a bunch of people who don't
realize the phrase, "Don't Mess with Texas" is referring
to littering!

[JDPriestly]

41. We forget that people can die from lack of regulation just as they can die from terrorism

and gunshot wounds. Doesn't happen every day, but when it does the deaths can be numerous.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

59. After 9/11 they talked about terrorist attacks at chemical plants....

The big fear was deadly explosions or toxic clouds of gas killing thousands, even millions.

Deregulation is the culprit here.

The owners of these places are driven by GREED and when something like this happens their first reaction is to cash in on their insurance policy.

Has anyone looked at that dollar amount?

[drokhole]

68. For those who don't seem to get it...

West Fertilizer Co. Failed To Disclose It Had Unsafe Stores Of Explosive Substance

"It seems this manufacturer was willfully off the grid," Rep. Bennie Thompson, (D-MS), ranking member of the House Committee on Homeland Security, said in a statement. "This facility was known to have chemicals well above the threshold amount to be regulated under the Chemical Facility Anti-Terrorism Standards Act (CFATS), yet we understand that DHS did not even know the plant existed until it blew up."

(snip)

"I strongly believe that if the proper safeguards were in place, as are at thousands of (DHS) CFATS-regulated plants across the country, the loss of life and destruction could have been far less extensive," said Rep. Thompson.

(snip)

It reported having 270 tons on site.

"That's just a god awful amount of ammonium nitrate," said Bryan Haywood, the owner of a hazardous chemical consulting firm in Milford, Ohio. "If they were doing that, I would hope they would have gotten outside help."

In response to a request from Reuters, Haywood, who has been a safety engineer for 17 years, reviewed West Fertilizer's Tier II sheets from the last six years. He said he found several items that should have triggered the attention of local emergency planning authorities - most notably the sudden appearance of a large amount of ammonium nitrate in 2012.

Texas Fertilizer Plant Failed To Disclose Massive Amount Of Ammonium Nitrate

"The U.S. Department of Homeland Security requires fertilizer plants and depots to disclose amounts of ammonium nitrate, which can be used to make a bomb, above 400 lbs. The West, Texas plant, West Fertilizer, reportedly held 270 tons of the substance, 1,350 times that limit."

West Fertilizer Co. had spotty regulatory history, records show
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-fi-mo-west-fertilizer-co-had-spotty-regulatory-history-records-show-20130418,0,519911.story

This wasn't merely an "accident" waiting to happen and went way beyond gross "negligence". Their actions in what lead to creating what was, in effect, a massive bomb was deliberate. They then not only purposefully withheld this fact, they had a history of violating safety regulations. All in the name of the mighty dollar.

[mojowork_n]

87. Great 1,000th post

I had to scroll all the way down to the end of the thread to see actual links to what's been pretty widely reported now.

Absolutely puts this all in a different context. One thousand three hundred and fifty times the permitted amount is pretty clearly a serious violation. The history of violating safety regulations to save a few bucks shows where the priorities were.

[GliderGuider]

69. A society only responds strongly when it feels its core story is under threat.

Events like 9/11, Boston, the Branch Davidians and marijuana smoking threaten the social narrative about What America Is. They don't threaten the fabric of America, only its story. Gun deaths, sociopathic bankers, the deletion of civil liberties, wars of aggression - these do NOT threaten the "Story of America", and so are not pursued vigorously (if at all).

I could make a case that rather than threatening "The Story of America", gun deaths and sociopathic bankers are actually an integral part of it. Paradoxically, moving against guns or bankers is what would threaten the story, which is why there is such a violent response whenever anyone suggests gun control or banker control.

[GreenStormCloud]

70. That's West, Texas, not West Texas.

West, Texas is a tiny town north of Waco, TX.

West Texas is a huge region of the state from the Pecos River to the New Mexico border.

[NCTraveler]

73. Is someone running?

Before the manhunt, I suggest someone rings their doorbell.

[lonestarnot]

80. k & r

[itsrobert]

81. How about a Citizen's Arrest

nt

[AAO]

102. Where's Gomer when you need him?

Citizens Ahrayust! Citizens Ahrayust!

[blkmusclmachine]

88. They're just "savvy businessmen."

Nothing to see here. Move along, folks. Forward!

[Separation]

89. Gonna add my nickel thought.

I am, and have been a hazmat certifier in the military. I've been certified for around 8 years now. Basically I can classify, label, and determine any type of hazmat for transportation and storage.

Now, I don't know how it works on the civilian side but in the military, hazmat is no joke. Twice a year we are inspected for discrepancies. If for instance there is a major spill and it was due to negligence. They would levy a fine, that fine is not paid by the government, it is paid for by the commanding officer, out of his own pocket. The worse I saw was a $10,000 fine against the CO.

Now with this being said, their were some obvious violations at this company. The Buck stops at the CEO, unless he is a good buddy of somebody waaaay up there, or has pictures of some dead hookers in a senators car....expect him to go to jail.

There is no need for a manhunt for this guy. I'm sure the guys in suits have already visited him and was told not to leave town. If they think he is a flight risk, then yeah, they will arrest him. Mark this post, he will be going to jail.

[CBGLuthier]

95. wow when some people get hold of a meme, no matter how fucking stupid it is,

they just will not let it go.

[BlueStreak]

101. Can we at least agree the fertilizer plant was a weapon of mass destruction?

After all, it killed 5 times as many people as the pressure cooker bombs killed.

At some point there isn't much difference between gross negligence and a willful act of violence.

[hay rick]

108. Wilfull neglect is also a form of violence.

The Boston bombers intended to kill and maim. The fertilizer company CEO surely hoped not to harm anyone, but he had to be aware of the risks and chose not to take either the reasonable steps or the legally-required steps to mitigate risk. Both sets of victims are maimed or dead. I find the manslaughter motivated by greed (avoiding costs of compliance- including opportunity costs) and reinforced by the "job creator" sense of privilege even more repulsive than the unleashing of violence for a misguided cause.

We have unavoidable risk of both kinds of violence in our society. Sadly, our media salivates over one story while it runs away with its tail between its legs on the other. Perhaps providing security measures are seen as a business opportunity while regulatory compliance is viewed as an expense which should be minimized like any other business cost. One bottom line: Homeland Security's budget is approximately 100 times greater than OSHA's. Terrorism- it's what's for dinner.

[WinkyDink]

110. And no federally-funded "compensation," either.

Choose your death carefully!

[George II]

111. Is that picture supposed to be humorous?