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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPolice Officer – “I have never once arrested a member of the NRA” (O Steve is not in suppot of this!
Last edited Sat Apr 20, 2013, 08:59 PM - Edit history (1)
Note that I work for the largest police dept in the state. Many officers that I know are tired of being outgunned and support many different measures of control. Here is an example of what they would have faced had he not turned the assault weapon on himself after killing 8 others: :
Police: Nine killed in shooting at Omaha mall, including gunman: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/05/mall.shooting/
Omaha Steve
Police Officer – “I have never once arrested a member of the NRA”
http://patriotoutdoornews.com/6198/police-officer-i-have-never-once-arrested-a-member-of-the-nra
Posted on: April 16th, 2013
Below is an email ClashDaily.com received from a Florida police officer. Enjoy.
- Doug Giles
Hello Mr. Giles -
Awesome site. I am on it constantly. I really appreciate all you do for our country.
I am a police officer in a large agency in Florida. I have served on the streets of this city for 16 years and have seen more than my share of “Gun Violence,” with several occasions where the bullets were intended for my head.
FULL letter at link.
= new reply since forum marked as read
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haikugal
(6,476 posts)Never? Is that the first question he asks?
Skittles
(153,160 posts)THAT'S THE FIRST QUESTION! 
markpkessinger
(8,396 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)white guys. You know, the criminals who discriminate, hate, rip folks off with fountain pens and lies, vote for racist congress people, etc.
Over 95% of nra members are callous white folks, and most are bigots.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)Last edited Sat Apr 20, 2013, 08:45 PM - Edit history (1)
and btw, that logo is SICKENING 
edited to take out accusation 
Omaha Steve
(99,632 posts)What part of my statement is pro-NRA: Note that I work for the largest police dept in the state. Many officers that I know are tired of being outgunned and support many different measures of control. Here is an example of what they would have faced had he not turned the assault weapon on himself after killing 8 others: massacre video on youtube
Maybe you missed this under the video: Police: Nine killed in shooting at Omaha mall, including gunman: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/05/mall.shooting/
OS
Skittles
(153,160 posts)that first link was slow :O
Omaha Steve
(99,632 posts)
Skittles
(153,160 posts)
treestar
(82,383 posts)Not statistical evidence.
No doubt some of them have been arrested.
brucefan
(1,549 posts)He's never arrested a member of Moveon.org etc. etc. never mind
ileus
(15,396 posts)Typically people that care enough about something to pay to join a group are pretty good citizens.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)and gun perverts.
ileus
(15,396 posts)bowens43
(16,064 posts)alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)I would never have expected a post this stupid from you.
Disappointing.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)I already received a scolding from Steve
spin
(17,493 posts)That might provide some of the explanation.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)spin
(17,493 posts)In any significantly large group of people, you will always find a few individuals capable of murder.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Last edited Sun Apr 21, 2013, 12:57 AM - Edit history (1)
spin
(17,493 posts)and have done so on a regular basis for over 15 years.
I pose no danger to anyone except a person who would attack me with the intention of putting me in a hospital or six feet under and has the capability to do so. Of course a criminal would feel that I was dangerous while most rational people would not.
I passed the background check to get a concealed weapons permit which is not surprising as I held a government security clearance for 40 years. With the exception of three traffic tickets, I have a spotless record. I suffer from no mental issues and I do not abuse alcohol or drugs. In fact I rarely drink alcohol.
If you honestly feel that I am dangerous because I often carry a handgun, you are excessively paranoid. That is probably why you have often accused me of being paranoid because I do carry.
You should be more concerned about individuals who illegally carry a firearm. Your chances of ever being shot by a person with a license to carry is less than your chance of getting hit by lightning. Of course that assumes that you are not attacking him with the intention of hurting or killing him.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)spin
(17,493 posts)but am realistic enough to know that there is still a slight possibility, my five shot snub nosed .38 revolver is enough for me.
Recently I have occasionally carried a 7 shot .22 magnum snub nosed revolver not because it has more rounds in its cylinder or because it is more powerful, but because it is even lighter than my .38 caliber snubbie.
If I was really worried about being attacked I would lug around my Colt .45 pistol. Doing so would be a real pain in the butt and would be harder to conceal under clothing normally worn in Florida.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)The only question is: what are you afraid of?
spin
(17,493 posts)Do I wear a seatbelt because I fear an accident or do I realize that if one happens I have a far better chance of surviving?
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)If you carry a gun in the city, you are the one who is paranoid.
If you promote guns, as you do on gungeon, you are even more dangerous to society.
Finally at your age, it might be time to consider hanging up your guns, at least in public, especially if you are on any type of medication.
spin
(17,493 posts)Or for that matter anyone who legally carries a firearm?
As I have stated the only person who worry about the fact that I am armed is one who would attack me with the intention of seriously hurting or killing me.
I hope you don't fit that description. You strike me as having more intelligence than a street thug.
I don't think that the fact that I take medication to keep my blood pressure and cholesterol under control and medication to prevent acid reflux has any bearing on my ability to responsibly use a firearm.
I am a candidate for a hip replacement, consequently I walk with a noticeable limp. A street predator might pick me out of the herd as easy prey. I can't run away and I am well aware that I would have a difficult time in a violent encounter with a much younger thug. I do place value on my health and my life so I see some value in being prepared in the very unlikely chance that I am attacked.
I take ibuprofen to manage my pain and avoid any drug that might prove addictive. I've seen far too many people who have become hooked on stronger drugs. I have no wish to fall into that trap.
I appreciate your concern but once again you are allowing your very active imagination to cause you to fear me.
billh58
(6,635 posts)Anyone carrying a gun in the public venue is a potential threat to all around him or her. Assuring us that we have nothing to fear from you, as long as we behave in your presence, is not acceptable. Your "word" means shit to me because I don't know you, and that makes you just another stranger with a fucking gun.
You want to keep a gun in your home? That's your right and none of my business. You carry in public, that becomes my business especially because you conceal your gun and your intentions.
You are a part of the problem Bubba.
spin
(17,493 posts)We are overwhelming law abiding responsible citizens and pose no real danger to other honest citizens.
The state of Texas publishes an excellent report on crimes of all natures committed by those who have carry permits which you can review at: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/reports/convrates.htm
If allowing people to carry firearms was a significant problem surely at least one of the 39 states that has passed "shall issue" concealed carry would have repealed it by now.
Florida has had "shall issue" concealed carry since 1987 and we now have the lowest level of gun violence in state history.
Florida firearm violence hits record low; concealed gun permits up
Debate continues over relationship between guns and crime
By JACOB CARPENTER
In the so-called Gunshine State, home to the most gun permits in the country, firearm violence has fallen to the lowest point on record.
As state and national legislators consider gun control laws in the wake of last month's Connecticut school shooting, Florida finds itself in a gun violence depression. The Firearm-involved violent crime rate has dropped 33 percent between 2007 and 2011, while the number of issued concealed weapons permits rose nearly 90 percent during that time, state records show.
http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2013/jan/06/fla-firearm-violence-hits-record-low/
While you have every right to your opinion, I feel that your fear of those who legally carry is irrational.
billh58
(6,635 posts)paranoia makes you dangerous, and that it drives you to feel a need to be armed at all times is irrational. You, and your Gungeoneer buddies, excel at spouting statistics ad nauseam, but I have a simple statistic for you: my chances of being shot by you and other concealed carriers is 100% greater than that of being shot by someone who isn't carrying a firearm. Just ask the family of Travon Martin, or the families of the other innocent people killed by concealed carriers who were only "standing their ground" about their views on concealed carry.
The Second Amendment does not give you the "right" to carry a gun in the public venue -- the NRA gave you that privilege through coercion and the corruption of politicians to pass dangerous laws. I am thankful that I don't live anywhere near you, and I know that because my state does not permit concealed carry except in extraordinary circumstances, and we have the absolute lowest gun injury and death rate in the nation. There are many guns in Hawaii, but we don't walk around with them in fucking public, and they are ALL registered and permitted.
And your, and your Gungeoneer right-winger buddies' claim that you are a breed above, and your motives are as pure as the driven snow is laughable. If that were true, you wouldn't need a fucking gun to feed your desire to feel important. You people are no better that any other school yard bully, and you're too cowardly to wear your fucking gun where everyone can see and avoid you. You are deceitful in your actions, and cunning in your defense of your anti-social behavior. Your protestations that as a group you are statistically more law-abiding than ALL other Americans is yet further proof of your arrogance and self-aggrandizement.
From past experience with you and your "cold dead hands" kind, I know that there is no such thing as "getting in the last word," and that is not my intention in any event. My posts are for others to read in the hopes that as a group we can restore sanity to this country. The NRA's, and your, dream of arming the entire country for profit at the expense of needless injury and death will be defeated. Not overnight, or maybe not in this decade, but it WILL be defeated.
spin
(17,493 posts)He appears to be a cop wannabe. He did the right thing when he contacted the police about a suspicious person but overreached when he left his truck to pursue Martin. A person with a carry permit is not a cop or a vigilante.
In my opinion it is quite possible that Zimmerman approached Martin with an attitude. Martin might have found himself facing an aggressive individual who didn't properly identify himself. It might be possible that Zimmerman flashed his gun in order to intimidate Martin and if so, Martin might have had good reason to fear for his life. In fact it might be argued that Martin was legally standing his ground and had every right to attempt to disarm Zimmerman.
Of course I am basing my opinion on what I have read about the case. I have not seen the evidence and Zimmerman will get his day in court to present his side of the story. A jury will hear the evidence and make a decision on his guilt or innocence. That's fair.
Yes, gun rights supporters often use statistics to support our views. Gun control advocates often rely on emotion rather than facts. It's often claimed that most people who legally carry concealed are bloodthirsty vigilantes looking for the chance to blow someone away but statistics do not support this. Millions of people in our nation legally carry firearms yet incidents where a firearm is used on the street for legitimate self defense are fairly rare. Surely if we were as bad as suggested there would be several hundred incidents every year where someone with a carry permit shot another person.
Gun violence in Florida is at an all time low despite the fact that almost a million resident Floridians have carry permits.
Florida firearm violence hits record low; concealed gun permits up
Debate continues over relationship between guns and crime
By JACOB CARPENTER
Posted January 6, 2013 at 5:15 a.m.
In the so-called Gunshine State, home to the most gun permits in the country, firearm violence has fallen to the lowest point on record.
As state and national legislators consider gun control laws in the wake of last month's Connecticut school shooting, Florida finds itself in a gun violence depression. The Firearm-involved violent crime rate has dropped 33 percent between 2007 and 2011, while the number of issued concealed weapons permits rose nearly 90 percent during that time, state records show.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=2729004
Gun violence in the United States has dropped significantly despite the fact that "shall issue" concealed carry is the law in 39 states.
Gun Violence
How Prevalent is Gun Violence in America?
According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, 467,321 persons were victims of a crime committed with a firearm in 2011.[1] In the same year, data collected by the FBI show that firearms were used in 68 percent of murders, 41 percent of robbery offenses and 21 percent of aggravated assaults nationwide.[2]
Most homicides in the United States are committed with firearms, especially handguns.[3]
Homicides committed with firearms peaked in 1993 at 17,075, after which the figure steadily fell, reaching a low of 10,117 in 1999. Gun-related homicides increased slightly after that, to a high of 11,547 in 2006, before falling again to 10,869 in 2008.[4]...emphasis added
***snip***
Nonfatal Firearm-Related Crime
Nonfatal firearm-related crime has fallen significantly in recent years, from almost 1.3 million incidents in 1994 to a low of 331,618 incidents in 2008. Since then it has risen; in 2011 there were 414,562 incidents.[6]
http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/gun-violence/
You suggest that I am a coward because I don't carry my firearm openly. Currently Florida law prohibits open carry in public. If that changes I may decide to carry openly. I doubt that that will happen as open carry is scary to many people and might frighten tourists. Florida welcomes tourists and has no desire to scare them away.
You appear unfamiliar with people who legally carry as you suggest we are bullies. Bullies start fights. If you start a fight and end up using your weapon you will probably be charged and land in prison. Consequently if I find myself in a heated argument, I am more than willing to walk away even if it makes me look like a coward. If anything, carrying a firearm makes you more polite. Even if you are not armed, getting into a fight might lead to you losing your carry permit.
At some time in the future the Supreme Court will probably rule on bearing arms in public. Much will depend on the makeup of the court at that time. The current court would probably rule that the decision is up to the states.
I suspect that eventually the gun control crowd will finally win and Americans will be disarmed. I don't expect that this will happen in my lifetime and it may never happen. Time will tell.
On a positive note I wish to compliment you for being fairly polite. I respect your views even though I disagree with them.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Last edited Sun Apr 21, 2013, 03:03 PM - Edit history (1)
I honestly did not ask for a medical history, but pain can affect one's judgement.
When one feels like prey, they could well misinterpret a situation. Apprehension impacts judgement. Aging impacts judgement.
In drugs to treat high blood pressure, alpha blockers, like clonidine and methyldopa, can sedate and confuse. Reserpine can cause depression. Betablockers can cause the appearance of dementia although this is rare. The most common side effect of betablockers is fatigue or drowsiness.
I doubt that if you had to take pain meds, or anti-depressants, you'd leave the gun at home. Millions are on these drugs, and carry. They too consider themselves safe, right up until they aren't.
spin
(17,493 posts)with carry permits misusing their firearms because of the meds they were on?
You are allowing your active imagination to run wild and consequently have developed an irrational fear of those who legally carry.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)spin
(17,493 posts)where some old guy shot a fleeing teen in the last yer alone.
avebury
(10,952 posts)my biggest concern about any gun owner is how well he/she secures any weapons in a home, vehicle, etc. All you have to do is surf the net to see how many incidents occur where a child get a hold of a loaded weapon and harms/kills himself/herself or harms/kills someone else. Society tends to call incidents like that "oh what tragic accident" instead of demanding that gun owners be responsible for their weapons and for incidents like this.
Gun ownership should not come with it a free pass from responsible behavior.
http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/3-year-old-nephew-of-state-trooper-dies-after-accidentally-shooting-himself-with-uncles-gun/news/2012/12/17/56646
http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/us/new-jersey-child-shooting
http://kidshootings.blogspot.com/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2302412/Boy-4-dead-shooting-chest-Easter-Sunday-church.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57578566/child-shoots-kills-tenn-deputys-wife-at-weekend-cookout/
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/02/houston-boy-shoots-self-with-stolen-gun-while-dad-slept-nearby/
http://kidshootings.blogspot.com/2013/02/2-year-old-pennsylvania-boy-shoots-self.html
spin
(17,493 posts)All mine are secured while I am at home and when I travel, one is on my person.
In Florida I have have a loaded handgun in my car without a carry permit as long as it it's "securely encased" which means it can be in a glove box. Occasionally a child is in the car. That's one of the reasons that I have a carry permit.
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)TMI, dude. 
spin
(17,493 posts)Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)Have you ever been attacked? Are you likely to be attacked? Do you fear the possibility of attacks?
Unless there is a significant likelihood of attack on your person, there is no actual reason for you to carry a pistol. Gratifying your ego is not a good reason.
spin
(17,493 posts)I haven't been hit by lightning either. That doesn't mean that I feel I can't be hit by a lightning bolt.
I know several people who have been attacked by an armed individual and were damn glad that they had a concealed carry permit. Fortunately they didn't have to shoot the attacker.
I didn't go through the trouble and expense to get a concealed carry license merely to impress people. It would make little sense to get such a license and leave my handgun at home in the safe.
I have no problem with the fact that you believe that I have no reason to carry a firearm. I hope that you are right that I will never have to use it for legitimate self defense which is the last thing that I ever want to do.
My daughter was glad that she had a carry permit when she attracted the attentions of a stalker who had a record of alcoholism and violence. She filed a restraining order but it did little good until this fool was finally arrested a year later and spent five weekends in the local jail which interfered with his drinking habit. The judge warned him that if he violated the restraining order again he would spend a year in jail.
If she would not have had the carry permit she would have had to wait three months to get it. I don't believe the stalker ever knew she had one and it was fortunate for him that he never attacked her.
I can't say for sure that this guy was all that dangerous but he did enjoy terrifying women and he was good at it.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)Paranoia.
spin
(17,493 posts)and those who carry concealed.
It doesn't bother me in the least what your think but let me assure you that I and the majority of those who legally carry are not excessively paranoid.
We just have a more realistic view of life and prefer to be prepared. Chances are that I will never have a reason to use my firearm for legitimate self defense but statistics do not come with a guarantee.
The odds of being a victim of a violent crime during adulthood are greater than 2 to 1. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and the U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, Youth Violence Research Bulletin — February 2002)
http://www.witnessjustice.org/news/stats.cfm#violentcrime
Of course much depends on your age, race and lifestyle. When I lived in a fairly high crime area of Tampa, my chances of being a victim were much higher than now that I have retired and moved to a smaller town in north Florida.
Still I have personal friends who are local police officers and they inform me that violent crime does happen in this area. They see no problems with my carrying a concealed weapon and feel that it is wise for me to do so.
I am more inclined to listen to them than I am to you.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)No, paranoia is the correct word to use in your case.
spin
(17,493 posts)I practice situational awareness which mainly means I don't walk down dark streets with a cell phone glued to my ear but am reasonably alert to my surroundings. That simple tactic alone will prevent most violent attacks as a street predator looks to surprise his victim.
My lifestyle makes it highly unlikely that I would be attacked. I don't do stupid things like visit an outdoor ATM after dark.
If my situational awareness fails me and I find myself facing a thug who demands my wallet I will appraise him to determine how dangerous he is. If I feel that all he wants is my wallet, I will just give it to him. I can always replace my money, my credit cards and my ID. It's not as easy to replace my health and I don't want to end up six feet under.
I have no intention of drawing my weapon unless I intend to fire it. Doing otherwise might escalate the situation. However if I honestly feel that the person I am facing is irrational or angry and intends to attack me or if he turns aggressive after I give him my wallet, I will use my weapon to attempt to stop his attack.
I'm fairly good at judging people. Once shortly after I moved here I was walking a Boston Terrier when I was approached by an individual with a distinctive limp who asked me for a buck. Something about him set off my radar.
I just smiled and said, "Sorry,man. I'm just out walking this dog and I don't have any money on me." Everything ended peacefully.
When I described the man to the cop who was rooming with us at the time, he laughed and said, "You ran into Little Eddie. He just got out of prison for mugging an old guy like you. We've arrested him several times over the years and he'll probably be back in shortly. He's a druggie looking for some cash to support his habit. Don't let that limp fool you. He runs like the wind when we chase him."
Had this guy actually attacked me I would have probably tried what remains of my martial arts skills to attempt to subdue him. He was far younger but smaller than I am and scrawny probably because of his drug use. He didn't appear to have a knife of gun on him.
Of course that might have been a foolish decision as small street fighters can be as tough as nails and can often defeat a person with martial arts training as they may not know many techniques but are good at the few they use. Still I have no desire to shoot another person unless absolutely necessary.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)You admit that the likelihood of such an attack is remote. So why do you carry a gun?
spin
(17,493 posts)Therefore if you insist that I am paranoid despite what I have said, then I will not waste my time attempting to change your view.
I have been called a lot things in my life and being called paranoid is far from the worst.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)An attack which you admit has not happened and almost certainly will never happen. How is this NOT paranoid?
You have certainly not made any sort of case for carrying a concealed weapon. If you were honest, you would admit that, in fact, you have no good reason for carrying a pistol. Nor do over 99% of the people who carry concealed weapons. I could make nasty comments about penis substitutes, but I shall refrain.
spin
(17,493 posts)That insult is tired and worn out. Usually when I read it, I am reminded of my days in an elementary school yard. I could point out that if I did suffer from a feeling of inadequacy, I would carry a handgun with a far longer barrel then the 1.875" barrel that my snub nosed revolver has.
I have fire alarms throughout my house and a fire extinguisher eight feet from where I am sitting but I have never had a house fire during my lifetime. That doesn't mean that I am excessively paranoid that my house might burn down but merely that I wish to be prepared in case of a fire.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)May well go off and kill or injure someone. Is that what you want? Of course not. Yet it is far more likely to happen than you might need to fight some mythical attack.
Pistols have one and only one purpose: To kill people. I am concerned that people feel some inchoate need to carry them. Not all are sober and responsible like you. Many get drunk or angry and shoot. I am not saying that you are all George Zimmermans -- but one of him was one too many.
No, there it NO good reason for concealed carry, and plenty of good reasons not to.
spin
(17,493 posts)Recently manufactured handguns do not fire even if dropped.
I carry a S&W Model 642 revolver.
Gun Review: Smith & Wesson Model 642
Posted on September 28, 2011 by Ralph
***snip***
Frankly, the trigger of any new Airweight is as stiff as a dead carp and cries out for a power assist. Or at least a windlass. Measuring the pull weight is tough since it exceeds the limit of most truck scales, but 200 kilos sounds about right. That’s a total exaggeration of course. Would you believe more than 12 pounds?
The upside of the heavy trigger is that it’s very safe and the gun is unlikely to go off accidentally. In fact, during the first range session, a new shooter may begin to wonder if it will go off intentionally. Not to worry. The revolver will fire every time.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/09/ralph/gun-review-smith-wesson-model-642/
Pistols have far more uses than just to kill people. I've enjoyed target shooting handguns for over 40 years and so far I have never shot an animal or a person. I've merely punched a lot of holes in paper.
My S&W 642 is primarily designed for self defense and concealed carry. It can be lethal but there's an excellent chance that a person shot with one will survive. I don't carry it to kill a person but to stop his attack.
I think that you fail to realize that handguns can be used for legitimate self defense as well as to cause a tragedy when misused. Here's just one example:
By KATU.com Staff Published: Apr 1, 2013 at 12:37 PM PDT Last Updated: Apr 1, 2013 at 5:20 PM PDT
OREGON CITY, Ore. – An man who police said grabbed a 22-year-old woman by her hair and assaulted her Sunday night got quite a surprise when she pulled out her handgun to defend herself.
Police said the suspect ran away when he saw the gun. The woman was not seriously hurt.
The attack happened near the intersection of JQ Adams Street and 8th Street in Oregon City at around 10:20 p.m., according to police. The woman had just parked her car when the suspect grabbed her by her hair from behind. Police said he dragged her down a sidewalk until she reached into her purse and pulled out her legally-owned gun.
"Everything that I've seen at this point, she seemed like she was very brave and she contacted the police and she took appropriate steps to protect herself," said Oregon City Police Sgt. Matthew Paschall.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/Woman-22-fends-off-attacker-with-handgun-200921511.html
OwnedByCats
(805 posts)that bother me - those who have a legal conceal and carry license and know how to properly handle a weapon. The ones that scare me are the mass amounts of illegal guns in circulation. It seems as though we don't talk about that much here. Some want to attack responsible owners and completely gloss over the big part of the problem.
My father is getting on in years and he can barely walk. He has owned guns his whole adult life (legally I might add, he also just retired from a government job where he had a security clearance) and has never shot anyone. He has a small handgun for protection, but mostly just at home because he has enough trouble getting around at home much less in public. He has a security system on the house, but the cops are at least 10-15 minutes away as he lives in the sticks. There have been other robberies on his road. You can't really expect him to run away from a confrontation as he can barely walk. I feel better that he has something just in case. It may never happen, the security system itself could scare them away, but you NEVER KNOW. My dad is not paranoid, he's a realist. He knows that people might see him as a sitting duck, so he has something for protection. I know a lot of people who have guns for protection and they aren't paranoid wannabe criminals just looking to gun someone down. This broad brush of gun owners is extremely unfair.
My concern are the ones that are truly looking to harm people and most willing to kill with a gun don't care if they break a few gun laws on the way. I have no problem with background checks and waiting periods etc, even getting control over guns that can hold high capacity clips, but I have huge problem with asking law abiding people like you and my father to give up their guns while I have no handle on controlling the illegal amount of guns in circulation. You know they won't give up their illegal guns if law abiders give up theirs. Not only are they punishing people who have been responsible, but they also leave those people with no protection against the illegal owners. You certainly have little chance of winning a gun fight with a knife or a baseball bat.
I know what it's like to live somewhere that has gun bans. Maybe that's why the criminals scare me and not people like you. It wasn't the utopia everyone thinks it would be and here it would be significantly worse based on population difference and illegal guns in circulation are much more.
Many many people have protected themselves with a gun and not always having to shoot the perpetrator either. Sometimes just pointing it or shooting a warning shot is enough. But if that perpetrator has a gun also, what are your chances unarmed? Not good.
spin
(17,493 posts)One factor that rarely gets mentioned in the gun control debate is that a very high percentage of gun violence is the result of drug gangs fighting over turf. Chicago is a good example.
If we are ever to reduce gun violence in our nation we should first start by better enforcing existing gun laws and severely punishing those who are caught breaking them. It's rare for a person with a carry permit to shoot an innocent person but it is common for a gang member who is illegally carrying a firearm to shoot a member of another gang or to shoot into a crowd of people during a drive by shooting.
Often even a violent felon who is caught carrying an illegal handgun gets off with a slap on the wrist or probation. If he were to receive a lengthy sentence for violating the law, he would be off the street and other gang members might decide to leave their firearms at home rather than risk being caught.
Many criminals obtain their firearms from people who have smuggled either stolen or illegally purchased weapons into the inner cities for street sale. Stronger punishment for the straw purchase of firearms and for selling guns illegally would help reduce this problem.
New legislation that would help reduce the flow of firearms into the hands of criminals should be passed. That includes requiring background checks for all purchases at gun shows.
Our NICS background check system is far from up to date and efficient as many states fail to input records on a timely basis or fail to flag those who have been legally adjudged as having serious mental issues that should disqualify them from buying a firearm from a dealer or at a gun show. This can be corrected without the necessity to pass new legislation.
Unfortunately these ideas can prove expensive as they require more cops on the street and more cells in our prison system. Politicians often favor "feel good" laws such as another AWB for that reason. Sadly even if all rifles similar to the AR-15 were banned and confiscated, violent gun crimes would not decrease significantly. Handguns are the weapon of choice for criminals and drug gangs. A mentally unstable person might not be able to use an assault style rifle to kill a large number of people but not all mass murders have involved the use of such weapons.
Limiting magazine capacity might accomplish a little, but magazines can be swapped quickly with just a little practice. A 10 round magazine is often more reliable than a hi-cap magazine which can cause a firearm to jam.
Such "feel good" laws target honest citizens and do little to curb criminal violence or massacres by the few who run amok.
In my opinion better enforcement of our existing laws and improving them by passing legislation that would truly be effective is the best course at this time.
We should also consider the legalization of some drugs which would take much of the profit motive out of drug smuggling. We lost the War on Drugs decades ago.
Our mental health care system needs some improvement. Most of the recent mass murders have been committed by individuals who waved numerous red flags which were ignored.
There are no simple or inexpensive solutions to gun violence.
OwnedByCats
(805 posts)In my opinion as well, the gun situation is not an easy fix with more laws or confiscation, especially if we don't enforce them and cannot control the amount illegally in circulation. I also feel if the laws were enforced properly, and yes if caught with an illegal gun, penalties should be harsher and actually applied - it would help a lot. It strikes me as suspicious any time someone would not go through the proper channels to carry a gun legally. I think we could have a million laws on the books and these people would still possess guns illegally because they are bypassing the laws we have in place now. If we confiscate them, the criminals will still have them. I learned that through experience and the gang culture was one of the biggest problems, as seems to be the issue here too.
I also see what you're saying about the AR-15, if you look at how much more often handguns and others are used in gun deaths and non fatal injuries, guns such as the AR-15 are rarely used in comparison, but that's not mentioned too much either. I think people would still get their hands on them, as with a lot of things we ban or make illegal to possess and use, drugs being a prime example. Prohibition was a huge disaster, but we learned our lesson on that one after a few years. With drugs however, things should have changed on that a long long time ago.
One fact of life is that some people don't give a damn about the law - always has been that way, always will be that way. What we can do is try to get to the root of the problems to reduce gun crime, but that appears to be too difficult for some to contemplate. Hence the "feel good" laws you spoke of. It just makes me feel like they want to do something, even if that something is not going to make very much of a difference. For me that is not good enough.
Our mental health care is atrocious in my opinion, some people being treated with SSRI's and other drugs that they shouldn't even be on. I've been there myself. If I tell a doctor I suffer from depression, the first thing they want to do is put me on something, even if I have tried it in the past under a previous GP and said it did not work. I had tried several and never felt any better at all, luckily it didn't have any homicidal or suicidal tendencies for me, but it can for others.
As long as we have as much gang related crime as we do, as long as we continue the war on drugs, not enforce laws already in place, dropping the ball with the mentally ill - you're going to keep seeing people dying from guns whether we have bans in place or not. It's about the criminal element and illegal guns are pretty popular in those circles - I mean why not? They have no qualms breaking every other law.
This talk of people being "paranoid" because people like you and my father have a gun for protection is troublesome to me. Look at all the violence in the world, and not just from guns - any kind of violent crime that does people harm. That's not paranoia, that's reality. As much as guns have taken lives, they have saved them too - whether people want to hear that or not. The viciousness I've seen as of late towards law abiding gun owners, I just wish that much contempt was shown for the ones illegally possessing guns.
spin
(17,493 posts)I was recently talking to a person who told his doctor that he was having difficulty sleeping.
The doctor gave him a test with a number of questions. The test showed that he had some degree of depression so he was prescribed a drug called Lexapro. One possible nasty side effect of this drug is that it can cause suicidal thoughts. That's exactly what happened to my acquaintance while he was driving. He said that out of nowhere he was overcome by a sudden feeling of absolute hopelessness and felt the solution was to run his car into a bridge abutment. He had a difficult time overcoming this sudden desire and managing to make it home.
My friend did some research and found that some people say the test he took was designed so there was no way to pass it. I haven't taken the time to research this issue but I suspect there might be some truth in it.
We elect politicians to solve our problems. Gun violence is a difficult problem to solve. Real solutions are expensive, hard to implement and often get little attention from the media. Politicians wish to get reelected which is understandable and "feel good" laws are often far less expensive than effective laws and make the politician look like a "hero" to his constituency. That's why "feel good" laws often get passed.
Unfortunately just as drugs have side effects, poorly conceived laws have unintended consequences. It is wise to be concerned when high emotion leads to a bill being rushed through the Congress and passed into law.
The War on Drugs was passed without considering the failure of Prohibition and has led to organized drug gangs that are terrorizing our nation just as Prohibition led to organized crime.
The first Assault Weapons Ban was poorly conceived and really didn't ban anything except for cosmetic items on firearms such as bayonet lugs or flash suppressors. Hi-cap mags were always available during the ban as long as they had been manufactured before a certain cut off date.
Prior to the first AWB military style rifles such as the AR-15 were uncommon and unpopular with the shooting public. They were viewed as inaccurate and unreliable and useless for hunting and target shooting. Shooters often ridiculed them as "Mattel Shootin Shell Rifles." Therefore most gun owners were not all that upset by the AWB.
Banning anything makes it more attractive. At first only a few shooters bought military style rifles during the ban but they gave these weapons positive reviews. Today this rifles are very popular with the shooting culture.
The unintended consequence of the first AWB was that it made these weapons very popular. Consequently it is very difficult if not impossible to pass another AWB.
OwnedByCats
(805 posts)many people tend to want what they can't or shouldn't have. This varies depending on the person. Someone like me, who strictly stays on the legal side of life because I value my freedom too much, will find that if there is no chocolate in the house, I want it more. If I have it in the house, the craving isn't as bad. Then you have the people who have the sort of personality who find illegal things extra attractive - could be guns or a type of gun, could be drugs, or other illegal activities. It's human nature for many people. Doesn't make it right, but it is what it is. I wish we could be more constructive with laws but I know we are sorely lacking in that department.
Your friend is exactly the kind of person who shouldn't be just pawned off with drugs that at best will not offer any change, at worst cause suicide or result in homicide, or both! The easy thing is just to write a script rather than treat the condition properly. While it never happened to me, I have known people who noticed some very dark things about themselves after having tried one or more of these medications. I'm sure they help some people, but everybody is different. Not everyone is going to take well to certain medications. I'm glad your friend was able to resist the urges he had while taking Lexapro, that must have been so scary!
spin
(17,493 posts)He called his doctor who told him he should continue to take it but he refused.
OwnedByCats
(805 posts)license. It's always highly recommended that patients tell their doctor if they experience thoughts of suicide and/or thoughts of hurting others and any doctor worth their salt would take those patients off them pronto!
I'm glad he was able to gain control before he acted on those feelings. Unfortunately they do grip some people so severely that they are incapable of thinking rationally. He was lucky indeed!
Sheesh, with doctors like that it's no wonder we're seeing people do some pretty messed up things which seem to have little explanation.
spin
(17,493 posts)Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)You still have not given any decent reason for your carrying about a deadly weapon. Anecdotes happening to other people demonstrate nothing except your paranoia.
spin
(17,493 posts)as chances are that I would be carrying it because I was a violent criminal.
You suggest that I need a reason to carry a firearm. In a few states that is true but in Florida and many other states that is not a requirement. In 1987 Florida passed "shall issue" concealed carry. One of the reason that the state did so was because the legislators felt that allowing honest citizens to carry would deter street crime. It did.
Simply put my reason for carrying a handgun is because I can.
If you wish to call me paranoid, it doesn't bother me in the least. I have to admit that I find your fear of those who legally carry shows that you are paranoid as you do view the dangers posed by those who carry in an irrational manner. The only time a person would need to fear a person who is legally carrying is when they chose to attack him with the intention of inflicting serious injury or to kill him. Smart street thugs fear armed citizens more than they do cops.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)Your argument is essentially: On the remote off-chance that someone might attack me, I am armed. That is paranoia, pure and simple.
I fear you, far more than I fear "thugs". You, or someone like you, may start shooting and hit me. Thanks for not giving a damn for the safety of anyone except yourself.
I would say that "gun nut" describes you, sir. Paranoid gun nut.
OwnedByCats
(805 posts)Neither of you knows if he'll ever be attacked or not. You both can make an assessment of the risk and I don't care how little a risk it appears to be, you cannot predict the future for him or yourself. Shit happens, sometimes where you would least expect it to happen.
In the area I grew up in, crime is very little. We have break ins and minor crimes here and there, but violent crime rarely ever happens. However one day a woman was working alone in a convenience store and she was kidnapped from that store and killed. Everybody was shocked because that shit just didn't happen here, until one day it did. I also worked at a convenience store at the time, much of the time alone and it scared the crap out of me. Then we found out this wasn't a random hit. It was done by people she knew because she was due to testify against them in a court case. Nonetheless my employer went out of state to buy pepper spray for us girls (pepper spray was not legal in my state). Even though the chances were still very slim, I carried that around with me every time I worked alone - just in case.
BTW, I'm not comparing one weapon of defense that incapacitates to one that can kill someone. My point is that even though my chances of being attacked were slim I still carried protection. The odds of me getting into a car accident is not very likely either (although higher than actually getting shot), but I still wear my seatbelt, and not because it's the law but because I know my chances are better of surviving if I do wear it. You can be the best driver in the world but you never know when someone else, who you have no control over, is going to ram into your car.
On the same token, you never know when someone is going to try and do you harm. Not too long ago, and it's been some 20 years after the first kidnapping and murder - another incident happened, but this was random and more heinous than the previous incident. A woman was leaving the mall with her 10 year old daughter at 9pm in the evening. A man approached them, carjacked them and drove to a remote place just down the road. He tied the mother up with duct tape, raped the 10 year old who subsequently got away and while she was getting help, he killed her mother. Luckily once police got there he had not gone far. They didn't know him and he didn't know them, completely random. Turned out he had been arrested a couple of months prior for having a 100 gigs worth of child pornography on his computer. Tons of videos and pictures. He got out on bail and went on to attack this mother and daughter. I live in the sticks and there are 12 sex offenders living within a 10 mile radius of my house. In more populated areas it's significantly higher. Does it make me nervous or scared? Hell yes. Does that make me paranoid? No because a threat can happen anywhere to anyone. Nobody is immune and to say one should not be prepared for something just because it will probably never happen, is ridiculous.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)However, when you say
Nobody is immune and to say one should not be prepared for something just because it will probably never happen, is ridiculous.
Then you are saying that I should take precautions in case the gravity cuts out and I find myself drifting off into space.
When his precautions endanger others, then I say he is not being reasonable. He claims that they will not, but why should I believe those claims?
I think we are done here.
OwnedByCats
(805 posts)What if gravity cuts out?
You know what, if I had the choice to walk around with you or him, I'll take him because at least if some deranged psychopath decided to start shooting, I'd have a better chance of walking away alive with him. It's awfully difficult to stop a gunman with just a menacing look or by cowering in the corner.
Why don't you ask what it was like for Susanna Hupp who had the unfortunate experience of losing her dad when he bravely tried to intervene unarmed against an armed gunman in the Luby's shooting in Texas, then subsequently lost her mother as well. The kicker about that situation was Susanna owned a handgun for protection and kept it in her purse. Two months prior, a new law came into effect that meant Susanna could only keep her gun in the car if she were to go anywhere with it. She obeyed that law and to her horror realized during the shooting that her gun was no longer in her purse but in the car. Her father tried to rush the guy during a reload - the guy was too fast and shot her father. Her mother was then shot in the head while cradling her father as he lay dying. She was fortunate enough to find a way out. He shot 50 people and killed 23 with 2 semi-auto pistols. She could have got herself killed trying to shoot him if she missed, but she was proficient with her gun and had a good chance, she could have saved some lives if only that gun had been in her purse. The scorn that you show towards a man who carries for protection, I would hope you would have some for the man who just decided to blow a bunch of people away because he was disgruntled with his life.
Now we're done.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"We just have a more realistic view of life and prefer to be prepared"
That's a common rationalization from those who have little understanding of other opinions ...
(Six of one, half a dozen of the other, and both idiotic premises based on little more than self-validating via the mechanism of justifications based on little more than anecdotal evidence)
spin
(17,493 posts)a rationalization. You can define it anyway you wish.
Some people go through life with the attitude that nothing bad will never happen to them. I have had posters tell me that, "I have walked through dangerous neighborhoods all my life I've never been attacked. That's fine and good but no guarantee that it will never happen.
I had a co-worker who was shot in the leg by a thug. The 9mm round clipped the femoral artery and he almost bled out before the EMTs arrived. Fortunately he was in Tampa and very close to a hospital.
When he returned to work told me, "I never saw any need to carry a handgun but now I'm going to get a concealed weapons permit and carry like you. I never expected that I would be attacked in a good neighborhood like the one I was in."
I told him how to get a carry permit and emphasized how important a good concealed carry instructor is. Too many people simply take a course at a gun show. A good instructor is more expensive but will take the time to be sure you know how to safely handle a firearms and will take you to a range and instruct you on the basics of defensive shooting.
In passing, I don't recommend that everybody run out and get a handgun and a carry permit. Guns are not for everybody.
Response to Omaha Steve (Original post)
blueknight This message was self-deleted by its author.
Dash87
(3,220 posts)That psychology I will never understand.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)
Omaha Steve
(99,632 posts)A church decided to put up signs at all entryways about no weapons, so some members quit the church.
spin
(17,493 posts)I know atheists and agnostics that own firearms and support gun rights. I know very religious people who refuse to own one.
I feel you are painting with a broad brush.
Dash87
(3,220 posts)Wasn't his whole philosophy nonviolence? When did Jesus ever advocate taking someone out?
spin
(17,493 posts)which were the handgun of the day.
35Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”
“Nothing,” they answered.
36He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’b ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”
38The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”
“That’s enough!” he replied.
Luke 22 NIV
Some argue that the swords Jesus spoke of were merely symbolic but Peter did slice off the ear of Malchus a servant of high priest, with his sword.
Legitimate self defense is not frowned on in the Bible. Murder is.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)... ever seen that you have posted OSteve. My respect for you, just took a big hit. (And from my hometown, no less.)
Fuck the NRA.
Omaha Steve
(99,632 posts)From the title: (O Steve is not in suppot of this!
Note that I work for the largest police dept in the state. Many officers that I know are tired of being outgunned and support many different measures of control. Here is an example of what they would have faced had he not turned the assault weapon on himself after killing 8 others: :
Under the assault weapon actual massacre video: Police: Nine killed in shooting at Omaha mall, including gunman: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/05/mall.shooting/
Omaha Steve
How do you get I support the info in the post?
dionysus
(26,467 posts)
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)It wasn't hard to see. 
spanone
(135,831 posts)Jeremy Almond
(26 posts)The powerful are protected from wrongdoing.
Ganja Ninja
(15,953 posts)Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)So much bullshit out there. Just so much.
Just this week on Facebook I've come across people posting fake quotes from Robin Williams and Bill Cosby where they sound, supsiciously, exactly like Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity. It's like they are too ashamed to admit where the quotes actually came from, so they attach a random celebrity's name to it in the hopes it will sell better.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)But I'm sure it was petty and non-violent, whatever it was.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_mcveigh
From the source:
"McVeigh was a registered Republican when he lived in Buffalo, New York, in the 1980s, and had a membership in the National Rifle Association while in the military."
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)
booley
(3,855 posts)Statistically aren't the odds against him in particular arresting a member of such a small group?
And since the issue is how the NRA blocks gun regulation, how is this relevant anyway?
I doubt he's arrested the board of BP. doesnt' mean BP hasn't done harm to this country
