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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsRachel Mocks UFO Citizen Hearing
Rachel Maddow mocked an upcoming UFO Citizen Hearing on her show tonight. Whether you are sympathetic to UFO theories/conspiracy theories or not I believe this is bad journalism. This is typical corporate covering of the UFO phenomenon. If a news organization believes a topic is important enough to cover on their program they should take the subject seriously and inform their audience. Not mock the subject matter. If she believes the people participating in this event are dupes or hucksters she should invite some of them on her show and take them down.
Personally I have an open mind on the subject and would enjoy credible journalists investigating it. Not just mocking it. There have been several astronauts, commercial and military pilots, sworn military and law enforcement personnel reporting UFO activity. Whether you believe in UFO's or not it's a subject worthy of serious discussion. Why would people in serious positions with professional licenses and reputations at risk report such fantastic stories? Whether they are suffering from mental illness, simply mistaken, or lying fame seekers I would like to see a credible news organization get to the bottom of it.
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fadedrose
(10,044 posts)First was David Shuster, who was interested in an Ohio sighting. He was on it for a week, and he disappeared.
Then there was the Science guy at CNN, who spoke of having seen one during a "weird" week, and he was removed from the air 3 days after the week started and hasn't been seen since. He had 2 days to go. Forgot his name, Miles something or other.
Rachel had a "freak" week a few years ago where she promised to talk about all weird topics, maybe it was called "weird" week, and the promos mentioned "ufo's" - The week came and left without one word about ufo's although they were promised...
Then there was Dylan Ratigan. He had some guests on that talked about ET books they wrote, and shortly after that, gone. Where is he now?
No one mentions ufo's anymore except the History Channel, and they mix it in with ghosts, vampire auras, etc., and they do that to cover their butts.
Everybody had a very good reason for leaving, but all within a day of mentioning ufo's.
Rachel needs this job, and we need her. I applaud her pretending to take it lightly. She probes the details of every topic and wouldn't mention the faux hearing if it didn't mean something to her.
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)
ZX86
(1,428 posts)It was a disgrace. He just mocked her. He didn't take the subject seriously at all. And when I say seriously I don't mean belief in UFO's. If commercial and military pilots are reporting other worldly happenings during the performance of their professional duties there should be serious investigations. Not just "Nothing to see here, move along" attitude.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)this than the lay public. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but to me there is a concerted effort of disinformation and psyops to keep all of this at bay. To me, it's because more knowledge might well shatter religion which is the glue that holds IMO many individuals together in an unstable world to them.
Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)If there is a level of top secret security above the presidents level of clearance then he wouldn't know. Or if he is on a "Need to Know" basis, where they need to know in order to do their duties.
Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)and the government has spent millions of dollars to make these sightings go away and discredit claims. Project Blue Book is the most famous program.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Blue_Book
Some of the government explanations are truly hilarious "swamp gas". If you look into the accounts of what happened in Roswell, it is hard to explain by other means. There are witness reports of memory metal having been found at the scene. Many credible investigators have been dumbfounded by events. UFO sightings increased greatly when we began nuclear testing. There is more than what they are letting on here. Even Tesla had a design for a anti grav device that looked similar to a UFO.
Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)"Many credible investigators have been dumbfounded by events."
They can't figure crop circles out. Roswell... if they are so advanced, why the crash? We already found alien life on a meteorite. So we know there is life out there. It's just whether there is evidence of intelligent life.
http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2011/03/nasa-scientist.html
Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)Are you saying an advanced species would be immune from accidents? Now that would be truly advanced.
They are many things in this universe that are beyond our understanding.
Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)Plenty of UFO crashes in movies.
Brainstormy
(2,380 posts)A very interesting example of this sort of thing is the so-called crop circles in England in which wheat and rye and other grains—these beautiful immense circles appeared and then—this was in the '70s and '80s—and then over progressive years, more and more complex geometries. And there were lots of people who said that these were made by UFOs that were landing and that it was too complex or too highly mathematical to be a hoax.
And it turns out that two blokes in Southern England, at their regular bar one night, thought it would be a good idea to make a kind of hoax to see if they could lure in UFO enthusiasts. And they succeeded every time—every time an explanation was proferred: a peculiar kind of wind, they then made another one which contradicted that hypothesis. And they were very pleased when it was said that no human intelligence could do this. That gave them great satisfaction. And for 15 years, they succeeded in these nocturnal expeditions using rope and board—all the technology they needed.
And in their 60's, they finally confessed to the press with a demonstration of how it was done. And, of course, the confession received very little play in the media. And the claims of alien influence had received prominent exposure.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/space/sagan-alien-abduction.html
truth2power
(8,219 posts)Doug and Dave (the two blokes) probably did hoax a few crop circles.
But their contribution, such as it was, was insignificant.
Get hold of this book: "Secrets in the Fields: The Science and Mysticism of Crop Circles" by Freddy Silva. The author effectively knocks down their claims of having done the hundreds of circles over many years. Also, the book details how one can tell the "hoaxed" from the, shall we say, truly "unexplained".
The author doesn't claim to know, definitively, who or what is creating these things, but raises a lot of reasonable questions that need to be answered.
Well worth a read, for those with an open mind.
Peregrine
(992 posts)It was contamination from the ground. Check some credible sources. Check Phil Plait.
Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)I only went on what I learned around 2005. Same one I learned about back then. ALH84001
Jack Sprat
(2,500 posts)It may be that one of their initial in-briefings includes a warning that the subject of UFOs are handled by a secret agency and that their "need to know" will never reach that level of security unless it is determined that there is a threat to national security.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)On "the Fourth of July" movie, where the POTUS is taken to Area 51 and asks why he was not told before, "no need to know."
It was funny, but in some aspects true to form in aspects that most watchers were probably surprised.
Of course a computer virus fed from an Apple computer (product placement from hell) was funny.
Still, a favorite sound track of mine.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)this go unfeathered, real, imagined ... or possible. Presidents come and go, all politicians come and go ... the facilities, they stay ... and some are politically neutral ... unless their funding is cut. ... but I find it really hard to believe they do not exist.
Yep, as I've read, a couple of presidents have tired to find out what was/might be going on ... and they got nowhere. From what I've read Bush senior was the closest to some of this stuff ... because of his positions prior to the presidency. And apparently he remarked to the press once something to the effect ... you don't know the half of it ... when the press pushed him onetime for somemore information.
Also, there are already plans drawn up with how to respond to an alien encounter ... something like that.
As Stephen Hawking has said ... we have no idea what an alien encounter might be like ... we naively assume (some) that they will be benevolent ... they could in fact be quite hostile. As he has said ... better to be quiet in our corner of the vast universe until we somehow have some idea of what is going on in the big picture.
Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)I can believe we don't know the half of it. Might be the first time I believe a Republican.
unrepentant progress
(611 posts)After bumping around for a while, including a stint with NASA, he was hired by PBS Newshour in 2010. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_O%27Brien_%28journalist%29
Dylan Ratigan contributes to NBC News and was last seen on the Rachel Maddow Show in January 2012. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dylan_Ratigan
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)..deep space nine to teach on earth.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Miles_O'Brien
AverageMe
(91 posts)Never said anything except "I saw something weird last night" to a couple of my friends the next day. The second time I was playing with my dog in the yard and the dog reacted to it also. She sat down and watched it. I guess it caught her attention because it was also making a strange high-pitched sound. Like I said, it was very, very weird.
AverageMe
(91 posts)Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)people who haven't seen it don't understand.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)ones frame of reference.
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)night as one of my best experiences. Totally out of the blue.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)plumbing and also had electricity, for example! Today, we have more things to play with, but in the big picture, we don't know crap.
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)understand. imho
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)the front passenger seat of my car. We were mesmerized to say the least and
she pointed to it and said, "ET Mommy, ET!" I was SO glad she did...because I
couldn't believe my eyes. I reported the sighting the next day to local law
enforcement and the Hynek center at Northwestern University. My daughter and
I weren't alone in the sighting.
NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)in the twilight sky, twin streaks of flame moving very quickly for about two seconds. It was fairly far off, so it must have been big. No idea what it was.
What did you see?
Captain Stern
(2,201 posts)..etc.
Can you guess what it is?
shanti
(21,675 posts)what is it?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Shivering Jemmy
(900 posts)He wanted to become a hydroponic farmer:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/03/22/dylan-ratigan-unplugged-ex-msnbc-host-turns-hydroponic-entrepreneur.html
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)complex place ... it's a fool's mission to mock that we know little of ... my background is in the sciences and I always pay attention to some of these folks. Yes, there are some real kooks, but not to dismiss all of it ... Humans on earth are infantile ... hell, 100 years ago many people were happy to have electricity and indoor plumbing. I've read where "if" visitors were here they could well be several billion more years advanced. ... yet some profess to be experts and dismiss those having had some type of experience ...
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)RKP5637
(67,108 posts)more I realized in the really big big picture we know little ... anyway, I try to keep a neutral perspective ... what's fiction today might well be fact tomorrow ... and what's fact today might will be riddled with inaccuracies later on ... And LOL, with a lot in between!
magellan
(13,257 posts)Not little gray/green aliens.
Owl
(3,641 posts)They're swarming all over us!
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)but that's part of the cover-up-- to equate UFOs with green men
Thank you! 
forestpath
(3,102 posts)people who believe in God.
I didn't see her show (don't watch anything on MSNBC anymore) but I think it sounds like bad journalism too.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)cvoogt
(949 posts)/nt
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)
&imgrefurl=forestpath
(3,102 posts)
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)What we have, in both cases, is a number of testimonies of personal experiences of alien encounters or religious transfiguration, unsupported by corroborating evidence, and usually from obviously unreliable people.
But there are significantly more people who've claimed experiences with deities than with UFOs.
Gore1FL
(21,130 posts)What is the "marginally more" evidence for God, then?
While I don't believe any intelligent forms of it has visited here, I expect the universe to be teeming with life. That's based on available evidence, though at this time not really testable. I have seen nothing to indicate a God, but plenty to explain a universe without one.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)Gore1FL
(21,130 posts)For thousands of years, humans "witnessed" the universe revolving around the earth. They experienced heavier things falling faster than lighter things, too.
That doesn't equate to evidence. That equates to people interpreting partial data in unsupportable ways.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)It's evidence that they had an experience they do not understand. To say "god did it" as some kind of viable and plausible explanation is ignorance.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)If enough other people claimed to had personal experiences of God, I would accept that I was the only person who hadn't.
Strong evidence scaled down is weak evidence, but still evidence.
I think you may be confusing "evidence" with "proof".
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)evidence
noun
1. that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.
2. something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign: His flushed look was visible evidence of his fever.
3. Law. data presented to a court or jury in proof of the facts in issue and which may include the testimony of witnesses, records, documents, or objects.
verb (used with object)
4. to make evident or clear; show clearly; manifest: He evidenced his approval by promising his full support.
5.to support by evidence: He evidenced his accusation with incriminating letters.
Having an experience that one does not understand and then attributing that experience to "god" is not evidence for "god", it's evidence of a person having an experience they do not understand. Nothing more.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)I think your position is entirely circular.
You know that people claiming to have had religious experiences must just be confused, because God doesn't exist.
You know that God doesn't exist, because there's no evidence for it.
And you know that there's no evidence for it because people who claim to have had religious experiences are just confused.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)I know nothing about the existence of any god, but what I do know is that there is nothing empirically based that supports the assertion that a god, a being or entity that operates outside the natural laws of the universe and the reality we live in, exists anywhere but in our imaginations.
There are myriad reasons why people attribute things they do not understand to god, aliens, and ghosts, but none of those reasons are evidence of their existence.
Might I recommend this book, The Believing Brain: From Ghosts and Gods to Politics and Conspiracies---How We Construct Beliefs and Reinforce Them as Truths by Michael Shermer.
Bestselling author Michael Shermer's comprehensive and provocative theory on how beliefs are born, formed, reinforced, challenged, changed, and extinguished.
In this work synthesizing thirty years of research, psychologist, historian of science, and the world's best-known skeptic Michael Shermer upends the traditional thinking about how humans form beliefs about the world. Simply put, beliefs come first and explanations for beliefs follow. The brain, Shermer argues, is a belief engine. From sensory data flowing in through the senses, the brain naturally begins to look for and find patterns, and then infuses those patterns with meaning. Our brains connect the dots of our world into meaningful patterns that explain why things happen, and these patterns become beliefs. Once beliefs are formed the brain begins to look for and find confirmatory evidence in support of those beliefs, which accelerates the process of reinforcing them, and round and round the process goes in a positive-feedback loop of belief confirmation. Shermer outlines the numerous cognitive tools our brains engage to reinforce our beliefs as truths.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Believing-Brain-Conspiracies-How-Construct/dp/0805091254/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0/184-6897440-3912744
Only by understanding ourselves and how our brains actually work, can we move beyond silly superstitions and fairy tales. YMMV.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)If - as seems to be the case - the answer is "not much", I recommend learning about it before trying to decide what is and isn't evidence.
If you do know a bit about bayesianism, and just aren't applying that knowledge, the question you need to ask yourself is "Which will have more people who claim to have religious experiences: a universe with a God who sometimes grants religious experiences, or an (otherwise identical) universe without one". Then, plug the answer into bayes' theorem, and you'll see why it's evidence.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Empirical evidence, like that we get from neuroscience, I find to be more convincing. YMMV.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)People saying "I believe X" is not evidence for something being true.
People saying "I have experienced X", however, is. In this case it's not sufficient evidence to convince me, but that's not relevant.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)And nothing more. Just because people believe it to be "X" does not mean it is.
Understanding why people believe said experience to be "X" is where neuroscience and understanding how our brain actually works comes in.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)What people "experience" has been accepted as evidence in U.S. courts for hundreds of years.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)that is factual for everyone.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Eye witness testimony is not evidence? I think you are confusing proof with evidence. Similar but not the same.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)So bringing that context into this conversation is a red herring.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)You seem to want to change the meanings of words to fit your argument. Eye witness observation is evidence. It may not be conclusive evidence in scientific terms but it is still evidence.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Or are you just picking one post where you feel you can challenge my usage of a word?
What is your point? Nit-picking?
ZX86
(1,428 posts)I reject the premise. Belief in God(s) is worlds apart from speculation that a civilization has mastered long distance space travel. One is pure fantasy (an old European looking man with a long white beard creating and intervening in the daily lives of humans) and inhabitants of another planet with technical abilities that is beyond our own.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Having an experience that one feels is god or aliens is not evidence of gods or aliens. It's evidence of an experience and nothing more.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Before 1992 there was no scientific evidence that there were planets orbiting stars other than our own. There was no empirical evidence to support it. It didn't mean planets didn't exist. It was just beyond our science at the time. The Kepler Mission changed that.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Of gods or aliens. I've never claimed that either do or do not exist, only that there is no evidence to support the idea that they do.
In the case of supernatural beings, or gods, everything we do understand about the universe makes that possibility less and less likely.
With aliens, it is increasingly likely that there is life elsewhere in the universe. Sightings of UFO's is not evidence of aliens.
That is all I claim.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)I have no empirical evidence aliens exist either. I'd love to show you a crashed flying saucer or a ray gun. Anything tangible. I'll be the first to admit that eye witness testimony is not conclusive proof. I don't believe in space aliens just because someone say they saw one anymore than I'd believe in God because some guy had a vision and talked to a burning bush.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)People claiming that a UFO, something they were unable to discern in the sky, is aliens, deserve the ridicule they receive and the lack of press the subject gets.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Let's say an Iraq war vet returns from overseas and claims to see ghosts of the people he witnessed killed there. Would you mock and ridicule him because you don't believe in ghosts?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)And people who persist in espousing ridiculous ideas will inevitably get some of that ridicule, whether they are preachers or soldiers.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Are you the kind of hippie who spit on Vietnam vets as well?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Due to what he/she was exposed to. But the IDEA remains rediculous, veteran status has nothing to do with it.
And before you go and make a total ass out of yourself by trying to insinuate that I spit on war vets, you should know that I am a war vet. 21 years of my life was given to my country in service. Please don't denigrate that with your ignorance about me or what I've done.
Again, what is your point? You are all over the place.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)deserve the ridicule they get. Last time I checked military pilots report UFO's and a good number of commercial pilots are military veterans. You claimed they deserve mocking and ridicule. Not their ideas. I believe people who are mistaken should be informed and educated. Not mocked and ridiculed. It's a form of bullying which I find disgusting.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Again, seeing something in the sky and not knowing what it is is one thing. Claiming that it is an alien spacecraft is rediculous.
There is a difference. I've seen "UFO's" too. But I make no claim about what I think it was other than I could not identify it.
You keep jumping back and forth, conflating the fact that people do see things that they cannot identify in the sky all the time. That is not ridiculous.
Claiming that the unidentified object is of extraterrestrial nature IS.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)General Bruno Lemoine, Air Force (former auditor of IHEDN)
Admiral Marc Merlo, (former auditor of IHEDN)
Michel Algrin, Doctor in Political Sciences, attorney at law (former auditor of IHEDN)
General Pierre Bescond, engineer for armaments (former auditor of IHEDN)
Denis Blancher, Chief National Police superintendent at the Ministry of the Interior
Christian Marchal, chief engineer of the National Corps des Mines and Research Director at the
National Office of Aeronautical Research (ONERA)
General Alain Orszag, Ph.D. in physics, armaments engineer
Jean-Jacques Velasco, head of SEPRA at CNES
François Louange, President of Fleximage, specializing in photo analysis
General Joseph Domange, of the Air Force, general delegate of the Association of Auditors at IHEDN.
The group was responsible for the 'COMETA Report' (1999) on UFOs and their possible implications for defence in France. The report concluded that about 5% of the UFO cases they studied were utterly inexplicable and the best hypothesis to explain them was the extraterrestrial hypothesis (ETH).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COMETA
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Was there some other point you were trying to make?
zappaman
(20,606 posts)if their opinion is ridiculous.
Goes with the territory...
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)That's the point. On Rachel's Show she pointed out that the White House had answered the group's petition and they should have been satisfied while ignoring opinions of many politicians, scientists, engineers, and high ranking military officials like the contributors to the COMETA Report. If the subject matter had been WMD's or oil in the Gulf and former high ranking government officials of a close ally like France had differing opinions of the facts she would present those opinions whether she agreed with them or not.
She also kept repeating the word "fake" in association the the mock with the hearing. Fair enough. But something tells me she would not take this tone when describing Con. Conyers Downing St. Memo unofficial hearings he had to hold in the Capitol basement. She also made a big deal of the cost of the event, former congress person's fees, and who foot the bill as if it was some secret the group was trying to with hold from the public. It is obviously a publicity stunt by an activist group like every other publicity stunt by activist groups who have expenses to pay. It's not a conspiracy. It's called an expense account.
It was very lazy journalism.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Last edited Mon Apr 15, 2013, 04:48 PM - Edit history (1)
to support their assertion, then their assertion can be dismissed. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. In the case of UFO's being of extraterrestrial origin, there is no evidence at all, therefore it is ridiculous to continue to argue that that idea needs further consideration.
The Argument from Authority or argumentum ad verecundiam is a logical fallacy.
If you have a problem with Ms. Maddow's reporting technique, take it up with her.
In the end, there is ZERO evidence that any UFO has origins elsewhere in the universe. To continue to argue that UFO's are of extraterrestrial origin lacking any evidence at all is ridiculous.
Upon review, it would appear that you are upset that Ms. Maddow did not give this issue the treatment you feel it deserved. In light of our conversation and agreement that no evidence exists to support this idea, why are you so upset about her coverage?
WCLinolVir
(951 posts)has a primary function, which is survival, and forms beliefs based on what it perceives as the selfs role in the society and physical environment and the ability of self to maintain a homeostasis, if you will. Those patterns of meaning are to me, the result of the brain creating that homeostasis from a number of different sources and experiences. In the case of young children who are victimized, this can be particularly devastating to the psyche, as the brain tends to create beliefs of survival with passivity and powerlessness, as the brain rightfully perceives the inequities and tries to insure survival. The younger these beliefs are formed the harder it can be to understand why you seem to hold onto beliefs that are destructive. Learning to re-frame and re-educate yourself requires understanding, and patience. The same problems happen with war vets. The issues are of course complicated with PTSD as prior beliefs are destroyed and sense of self is redefined. Somewhat of a core destruction, as the threat to self causes the brain to compensate with beliefs that do not serve us well. The part that is crazy making is when the brain associates self as the risk factor. It creates a hopelessness and rage.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)
thanks for that post LOL
forestpath
(3,102 posts)not worthy of a journalist. But then, she has plenty of company in the media.
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)1) Please provide me with how you have decided that there are more
people who have claimed experiences with "deities" (???) than with
people who have had experiences with UFOs. I didn't know anyone was
keeping track.
and...
2) How is it that you 'know' people who have had experiences that you've
obviously not had are unreliable?
Thank you.
onehandle
(51,122 posts)...coming here would be a major waste of time.
I know there are other intelligences out there, but they have never been here.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)onehandle
(51,122 posts)To accomplish interstellar travel, you would be so far ahead of our reality, that we would be gnats to them.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)
Moonwalk
(2,322 posts)...that's argument from lack of evidence. If we use that, then I'll ask you how you know there aren't a lot of things--like leprechauns, or that I'm having bad luck from a witch's curse, or that the world wasn't created 6000 years ago and god just put down dino bones older than that to test us....
You can't prove any of that's not true either, can you?
It doesn't work that way, as much as you want it to work that way. No one gets to pull the "you can't prove it's not true" argument and put the burden of proof on those telling you to prove it's true. YOU have to prove, with compelling and viable evidence, that there are UFO's. And, sorry, no, people seein' 'em, even "reputable" people isn't good enough. We know how faulty eye-witnesses are to a crime, how easy they get it wrong. We also know that "reputable" people have claimed to have seen angels, ghosts, demons, etc.
That something was seen doesn't mean it was real--or that it was what you think it was. I'm a sci-fi writer, and I'll tell you that from what I know about space travel, I totally doubt we've been visited. Because distances are loooooooong, getting the power to cross them super-friggin' hard, and the time-window to know that some planet has intelligent life on it is so incredibly narrow that you'd have to be super fast, super powerful, and super able to scan a super amount of space in order to pinpoint one of those rare moments...and if you've got that sort of power, visiting us would be a waste of time.
I mean, do you understand that when we look at the stars we're looking back in time millions if not billions of lightyears? Let's say we actually did see a civilization on a planet that far away...we're looking at them a billion years ago. Who knows if they're still around. If their planet or sun is still around? We can waste that much time and energy if we like, but if all we want to do is say "hi" there are easier ways to do that. Why visit?
But by all means, present your evidence. I mean, real evidence. Aliens, parts of a space ship, trails that indicate certain technology....anything outside of some picture that doesn't show anything or some person who said they saw it.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)There may be advanced technologies that we are not aware of that makes travel instantaneous, such as some quantum entanglement on large scales.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)quantum entanglement is blurred out at scales little larger than the planck. it would require more energy than exists in the entire universe to teleport a person from one side of the room to the other, were it even possible to do so.
these aren't debatable opinions. these are empirical facts about the cosmos.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)However, if we are talking about theoretical civilizations supposedly billions of years more advanced, you don't think they may have technologies that overcomes what we perceive as limitations?
That's rather arrogant ... and slightly unbecoming.
Moonwalk
(2,322 posts)We see bits of them here and there--is there some reason they can't keep themselves hidden if they really want to be hidden? And the reason we've no real evidence is because "the government is covering it up because we'd panic"? You do understand that beings that can jump instantaneously across light years don't get covered up by governments that are, to them, like a medieval village would be to us. It'd be like knights in armor trying to hide stealth bombers--and those able to pilot them, and take those "stolen" from them back with drones, bombs and high-powered rifles.
If such aliens want to stay hidden, then there would be no friggin' way we'd ever know they were there. If they didn't, then we'd know. Why, after all, would they care if we "panicked." And why are they jumping from their world to ours? Beyond a chance to look at some primitive species as we might in a zoo? And what about all these reports of people being "experimented on?" How does that make sense? That kind of jump technology expands across all aspects of science--meaning they probably have a device that can scan the planet and have the DNA sequencing of every living being on file within a few seconds.
I mean, people act like these aliens can jump across light years, and yet for some reason they're still in the 50's when it comes to all other kinds of technology--like they have to float above us in saucers and do experiments on us (why? why couldn't they know about us by now?). This is like predictions of people talking on video phones but still brewing coffee in old fashioned coffee pots. If you've got the chip to video conference, you've got the chip to make you coffee at a certain time of the morning. Ditto you've got a chip that can do laser surgery on you, and scan brain matter down to the molecules, etc.
If these aliens have instant jump capabilities, then either everything the UFO people say they're doing makes no sense at all...or they're totally alien and inscrutable and what's the point? We're never going to see 'em or understand them because they're too alien. Either that, or they've got one hell of a sense of humor--their jokes on us haven't changed since the 50's (eye-witnesses seeing something "big and fast," pictures out of focus, claims of experimentation--all the same for sixty years); so I guess they find those jokes as funny now as they did then...maybe that's why they visit us. To play jokes on us and laugh.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Real star, with a world in the life zone.
The analogy made by actual scientists, like Michio Kaku, is more like Columbus and the great colonization era.
It could also be that even with the most advanced of tech, there are accidents.
And no, I am not in the school of Aliens built the pyramids, but we have a few medieval paintings that show either an asteroid (likely explanation) or a UFO.
I was shooting the breeze with a couple sci if writers, one is actually a particle physicist, and we were talking the Fermi paradox, I am sure you know what that is, and the Drake equation. What if, we were talking plot by the way... Aliens have actually intervened in human history? No not by building the pyramids...you silly, but at the genetic level...
We were just playing with what ifs over a cup of coffee, in a few cases wine, at a sci if convention. But among scientists...it is no longer taboo to speak of this just for fun...
And if we ever actually...find actual proof, none that I have spoken to, will be too shocked.
You say you write sci fi, keep with the latest...but there is only one way the Drake equation results in zero, and as more actual hard science comes in, it's less and less likely.
Moonwalk
(2,322 posts)
And 22 lightyears is certainly doable.
As for Drake's equation, no one's arguing that there isn't other intelligent life in the universe. For fuck's sake, we're surrounded by other intelligent species on this planet and we might just find something interesting living under the frozen ice of Europa. Any scientist or sci-fi writer will happily agree that there is other life in the universe; and we'll all agree that some of it is undoubtedly intelligent (by our standards). Probably a lot of it. It's a big universe after all. Hubble deep field picture--a small area of space--found 5,500 galaxies--that's GALAXIES. Our one galaxy has up to 400 billion stars! So. Odds are good.
But Drake's equation doesn't say that said intelligent life is going to appear concurrent with us and/or near enough to reach us. The friggin' dinosaurs lasted 160 million years. If you were an alien species on Gilesse 581 looking at Earth, then for 160 million years all you'd see on our planet were giant, mostly featherless birds. You might well give up looking at Earth after a few million years. And just how long is your civilization going to last anyway? Long enough to catch a glimpse of humans evolving?
And we modern humans--ones that cultivate and build and such, have only been on Earth for 200,000 years. Hmmm. We haven't even managed to make it to 1 million years--we might not make it even that far. My point is, is NOT about whether there is or is not other intelligent life in the universe. Let's not even argue that--there is. There's tons of it! The question is, how many of these beings are at the exact height of FTL space travel RIGHT NOW. Not millions of years ago, not a million years in the future? How many of these planets are waiting for the dinosaurs to die off before something like us can appear? How many had something like us and all we're seeing is the dying star of that once illuminated their civilization, but now is almost gone, and so are they? Many highly intelligent species may not be like us at all. Living under oceans, or in methane atmospheres. Why would they even look for life on planets with land or oxygen?
And how do they find us? 400 BILLION stars. We're hiding at the end of one of the tail ends of the spiral and we've only been sending out radio waves for something like 93 years. I don't for a moment doubt extraterrestrial life is out there. The odds of that are high. But the odds that an advanced race that can--MAYBE--visit us (and we're going to have to accept the breaking of a lot of laws of physics here for that), one that is living now and living near enough to "Hear us," etc, etc, etc....the odds are waaaaaaaaaaaay down on all that. I think we need more than Drake's equation if we're going to argue that aliens have been dropping in on us at all--most especially if we're going to say they did so before radio waves announced our presence to the universe.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I have.
Yup, there is an app for that by the way.
Current data, IMO we are talking three to five concurrent civilizations. The distances are such that the chances of actual contact are low, but not inexistent. It's about the same odds of a singe person hitting the power ball ( the lowest odds actually, lower than Cal Lotto by orders of magnitude by the way)
But as low as they are... They still exist.
And mind you, astronomically small, and that is why more and more scientists are talking of this in this way.
And we still have 3% we can't account for world wide...chances are once you actually take care of the classified stuff...it's down to very few events, but one should be enough to get us to ask what if.
And that is the heart of not just the scientific method, but curiosity. This is what makes us human and leads to progress. It is those few not explainable events that are the heart of a thesis that outside the US several governments, chiefly France and Brazil, but also Mexico are for information release...why? It is time to look at these few events under the eye of the scientific method and find out if...
And if it's e graduate class, better stay that way...they can pull that stunt, and decide that they want our world...pretty much game over for us.
LTX
(1,020 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)The lowest number is two.
LTX
(1,020 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)The variables themselves go into decimals, and you can enter zero any where, or near zero, and you get zero civilizations. Given we are here, that is the wrong result.
Here, from SETI
http://www.seti.org/drakeequation
There are online places you can go solve it...by plugging variables in.
As a science fiction writer I have played with higher numbers and once got 5,000 plus civilizations in the galaxy...distances are still a problem.
LTX
(1,020 posts)I was conceiving of the set as external to us. (But I took a bath today, so I have that going for me.)
And thanks for the link.
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)If lots of people are being duped by hoaxters they should have a credible news organization inform them of the truth. Not mock the subject matter. Isn't that the function of news organizations?
Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)they might not be from far away. They may be from a different time/dimension. If they know how to fold time, they could be from far away.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)because you say things like that. and if you don't know what's wrong with what you said, then you can add that on, too.
Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)How much research have you done into it? I have read probably close to a 100 books on the subject.
Do you really think you know every thing that is possible?
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)And plausibility is what separates genuine wonder from tin foil hat wearers.
Mnemosyne
(21,363 posts)Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)everything we know about magnetic fields may be wrong. He has three interesting videos on Youtube.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)..who knows a damn thing about quantum mechanics..
..to take this utterly *stupid* fucking thread seriously.
it's beyond insulting. it's shit like this that the media starts *HARPing* on when we show up to protest and some of us are wearing tin foil hats on their sleeves, and acting like they know jack shit because they watched a youtube video.
give me a fucking *break*.
this is on youtube too.. shall i cite it as a 'scientific' reference?
**geocentric earth guy**
utterly pathetic.
GoneOffShore
(17,339 posts)Right up there with the UFO'ers.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)To think that you know all possible certanties on the universe, especially taken from an anthropomorphic view.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)it doesn't take hubris to dismiss obvious woo.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)You think quite highly of yourself in the fact that you know with certainty everything in the universe. What is and isn't possible, from an anthropomorphic view.
I happen to believe that we haven't been visited, either. But I have the humility to know that we as a species can't possibly imagine all of the possible ways that interstellar travel would be possible (and convenient). We just don't have the capability to know.
If you can't understand that "arblegarble", then I can't help you. You can continue to be the reigning know-it-all and resident prick in this forum.
All the best.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)and maybe you mean 'anthropocentric'?
if you can't understand why i might call argleblarble on ya, you should try looking both of those words up. i don't have to think highly of myself to dismiss woo. i can just work from first principles.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)Still doesn't excuse you from being an unmitigated jerk, principled or otherwise.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)..that your position is baseless woo. you don't like that i'm calling bullshit on obvious bullshit, so you attack me.
classy.
keep calling me names. i promise not to alert. really.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)Not I.
What baseless woo am I putting forth? My position is that it's unlikely we've been visited. I don't believe we have (the same position as yours).
I'm only asserting that the way you've been coming off with absolutely certainty has been rather arrogant.
Classy, indeed.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)with your very first post to me.
scroll up..
..
little more..
..
there ya go!
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)The way you've behaved towards others is you making it about you.
Unless you want to make it about me. Which I can live with. 
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)You would call his drawing of the satellites of Jupiter, not woo, heresy.
Yup, you made up your mind, and it matters little that more than a few scientists do not agree with you on the theory. Your attitude is actually pretty neo colonial, if we humans have not done this, obviously none have.
By the way, given current technology you were correct in supposing robots are used for interstellar travel. Guess what sparky? This is actually considered as a serious possibility for sentient life to expand across interstellar space...not just by science fiction writers (chiefly Asimov) but by serious thinkers on the subject. (See Michio Kaku et al)
I will not live to see it, neither will you, but we should be getting ready for a gen ship within 100 years... Perhaps FTL within 250, given the speed of development. What we will both see is an earth like planet in a life zone within the decade. There are two good candidates already.
ET visiting, if, big if, they are, let's hope it remains peaceful... And if is there, for one simple reason, anybody capable of crossing interstellar distances is way ahead of us...and if there is hostile intent, both a worry of Sagan and Hawkins chiefly, we are simply put...screwed.
But there are these 3% of events that are not explained yet. Some I am sure are classified planes by the way
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)I read his book, "Hyperspace", quite a few years ago. I need to get more from him. The guy is epic.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)And like Sagan he uses all kinds of caveats, but will not completely dismiss it.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)They were willing to entertain quite a few things, but with, as you say, caveats.
Our Dear Phillip, no such luck.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)And what we write in science fiction has a knack of at times becoming real. This goes from subs that can stay submerged for months on end (Verne) all the way to first contact using robotic machines (Rama II and Asimov) this has not happened but, space is immense, to think we are alone is beyond hubris.
Drake's equation would have to have one zero to come up as zero... The low end, I have solved it, leads to three advanced civilizations at one time in the galaxy. The Fermi paradox (we have had no contact) is IMO explained by the interstellar distances. But we have 3% of events that are not explained...even if some (surely) are classified military craft, even if one event is not explained that opens possibilities. And the question becomes, as a person who asks questions, what if?
Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #237)
Phillip McCleod This message was self-deleted by its author.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I will call BS when I see it. And you have been attacking, personally mind you, people who do not agree with you.
You can use the ignore button though, or the alert if you so chose. Go ahead
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)am i uber hubrific?
it's true i'm quite daring. dashing, even.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)what they said was fine.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)Not only that, but it would require enormous amounts of energy to be expended. I'd like to think we'd notice a fusion-powered or antimatter-powered starship pointing their exhaust at us while they decelerated for years!
Ever read "If the Universe Is Teeming with Aliens... Where Is Everybody?"?
Excellent book.
If intersteller travel is cheap and fast and easy (warp drive, Alderson drive, hyperdrive, etc.) then we should not be here; our planet would have been colonized millions of years ago.
Even if they used sublight travel, they should have been here millions of years ago in one form or another.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)for not being a gullible tool.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)A lot can happen out there.
It might be that we're in a part of space that is difficult to travel through. Stars are too far apart or something.
But the odds say we're alone, or at least there are millions of light-years between us and our nearest neighbor.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)..that whole lack of gravity and friction thing means other than the distant pull of stars once an object starts going along a vector, it stays on that vector.. including the velocity component.
the extraordinary distances however mean that no living being can get from one star to another. sure the spaceship might make it.. eventually and probably long after the earth is a cinder.. but the pilot would be toast.
robots. we're being visited by robo-aliens. 
..
there really is *nothing* to keep an open mind about re, UFOs.
spin
(17,493 posts)
Space travel using constant acceleration
***snip***
Interstellar traveling speeds
If a space ship is using constant acceleration over interstellar distances, it will approach the speed of light for the middle part of its journey when viewed from the planetary frame of reference. This means that the interesting effects of relativity will become important. The most important effect is that time will appear to pass at different rates in the ship frame and the planetary frame, and this means that the ship's speed and journey time will appear different in the two frames.
Planetary reference frame
From the planetary frame of reference, the ship's speed will appear to be limited by the speed of light—it can approach the speed of light, but never reach it. If a ship is using 0.5g constant acceleration or greater, it will appear to get near the speed of light in about a year, and have traveled about half a light year in distance. For the middle of the journey the ship's speed will be roughly the speed of light, and it will slow down again to zero over a year at the end of the journey.
As a rule of thumb, a constant acceleration ship journey time will be the distance in light years to the destination, plus one year. This rule of thumb will give answers that are shorter than the correct answer, but reasonably accurate no matter what the G force is as long as it is above, say, a half G.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_travel_using_constant_acceleration
Space Travel Under Constant 1g Acceleration
The basic principle behind every high-thrust interplanetary space probe is to accelerate briefly, and then coast, following an elliptical, parabolic, or mildly hyperbolic solar trajectory to your destination, using gravity assists whenever possible. But this is very slow.
Imagine, for a moment, that we have a spacecraft that is capable of a constant 1g (“one gee” = 9.8 m/s2) acceleration: your spacecraft would accelerate for the first half of the journey, and then decelerate for the second half of the journey to allow a visit at your destination. A constant 1g acceleration would allow human occupants the comfort of an earthlike gravitational environment where they would not be weightless except during very brief periods during the mission. Granted such a rocket ship would require a tremendous source of power, far beyond what today’s chemical rockets can provide, but the day will come, perhaps even in our lifetimes, when probes and people will routinely travel the solar system in just a few days. Journeys to the stars, however, will be much more difficult.
The key to tomorrow’s space propulsion systems will be hydrogen fusion and, later, matter-antimatter annihilation. The fusion of hydrogen into helium provides energy E = 0.008 mc2. This may not seem like much energy, but when today’s technological hurdles are overcome, fusion reactors will produce far more energy in a manner far safer than today’s fission reactors. Matter-antimatter annihilation, on the other hand, completely converts mass into energy in the amount given by Einstein’s famous equation E = mc2. You cannot get any more energy than this out of any conceivable power, or propulsion, system. Of course, no system is perfect, so there will be some losses that will reduce the efficiency of even the best fusion or matter-antimatter propulsion systems by a few percent.
http://www.skythisweek.info/constant1g.pdf
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)i didn't say it was easy to travel *fast* through space, just that it is easy to travel through it. don't even need a spacesuit as long as one doesn't mind being simultaneously frozen, cooked and asploded.
of course get out there in the middle of nowhere and the merest gravitational tug will be enough to send one hurtling toward a star. still at very slow speeds it will be a nice looooonnnnnnnnnnnnnggggggg trip.
spin
(17,493 posts)Time dilation and space flight
Time dilation would make it possible for passengers in a fast-moving vehicle to travel further into the future while aging very little, in that their great speed slows down the rate of passage of on-board time. That is, the ship's clock (and according to relativity, any human traveling with it) shows less elapsed time than the clocks of observers on earth. For sufficiently high speeds the effect is dramatic. [19]For example, one year of travel might correspond to ten years at home. Indeed, a constant 1 g acceleration would permit humans to travel through the entire known Universe in one human lifetime.[20] The space travelers could return to Earth billions of years in the future. A scenario based on this idea was presented in the novel Planet of the Apes by Pierre Boulle.
A more likely use of this effect would be to enable humans to travel to nearby stars without spending their entire lives aboard the ship. However, any such application of time dilation during interstellar travel would require the use of some new, advanced method of propulsion. The Orion Project has been the only major attempt toward this idea....emphasis added
Current space flight technology has fundamental theoretical limits based on the practical problem that an increasing amount of energy is required for propulsion as a craft approaches the speed of light. The likelihood of collision with small space debris and other particulate material is another practical limitation. At the velocities presently attained, however, time dilation is too small to be a factor in space travel. Travel to regions of spacetime where gravitational time dilation is taking place, such as within the gravitational field of a black hole but outside the event horizon (perhaps on a hyperbolic trajectory exiting the field), could also yield results consistent with present theory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation
The advantage of constant 1 g acceleration is that the space travelers would suffer none of the side effects of living in a zero G environment.
The biggest problem is any impact from space debris while traveling at high speed. Perhaps far in the future we will drag a fair sized asteroid into near earth obit and mine its resources. After it is hollowed out, we could provide living space inside the core and equip it with an advanced propulsion system. Then we would have a vehicle to use to journey to near stars.
Of course we will have to find a way to avoid destroying our civilization by misusing our technology in a catastrophic world war. That's the big test we face.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Assuming we aren't in the boondocks.
NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)An advanced civilization seeds DNA into the soup of primordial worlds and then pops in from time to time to check on progress.
On one trip back they found the planet teaming with dinos so they tossed a rock at it and tried again.
Under that scenario we have to hope we were what they were hoping for. Who knows? Maybe they just wanted a planet with a bunch of cherries.
NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)just hidden among us. Just saying.
And the many many sightings of UFOs would be part of their presence.
Duh.
Logical
(22,457 posts)was right to mock it.
This is like mocking ESP believers or Ghost believers or astrology believers. No difference.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)If somebody is selling bogus cancer treatments I would expect them to take the subject matter seriously and take down who ever is perpetrating the hoax. Not just mock the snake oil salesman. The purpose of a news organization is to inform their audience, not mock what they don't believe in.
Logical
(22,457 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)She would have doctors on her show explaining why the treatment doesn't work. She has guests on her show all the time explaining why this or that is pure "bull pucky". I would enjoy the same analysis on the UFO phenomenon.
Logical
(22,457 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)If alien visitation is not real why are commercial and military pilots reporting them? That is the story. Not whether you believe in UFO's or not. Are these pilots crazy? Hallucinating? Lying? What's the deal?
Logical
(22,457 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)That's the question. Would you want to fly on a plane piloted by a person who mistakes clouds, flocks of birds, or swamp gas for solid, intelligently controlled objects?
Logical
(22,457 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)That's the difference. If a pilot wants to believe in UFO's as a part of his personal belief system I could care less. If he/she is seeing UFO's on duty it's a cause for concern.
Moonwalk
(2,322 posts)...that tell said pilots that these things are birds, clouds, swamp gas. Now, at least. In earlier times, we just had to rely on the guys making mistakes and, alas, that resulted in a lot of crashes.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)It's one thing to say I saw something I can't identify. It's another thing to report a solid object under intelligent control. Many these reports are objects of fantastic sizes like football fields and/or traveling at fantastic speeds and performing maneuvers that defy physics as we know them.
Moonwalk
(2,322 posts)--but the movie "Flight" was no exaggeration. There are a lot of pilots in AA--and a scary number of them fly drunk, high, doped up, groggy, etc. And even more scary to say, but the Aviation industry let's them get away with it. And I see no reason why any of them saying "Saw something weird, didn't know what it was..." would be at all hard at thing to say. Seems like a very simple mistake to me when you consider what things are out there that ARE of fantastic sizes and ARE moving at fantastic speeds that ARE NOT space ships. You really need to do more research on weird and crazy weather phenomenon before you make such blanket statements as "it's not a simple mistake..."
Sorry. It is.
And just how many of these reports were made by sober pilots? Do you have the blood tests on all these men and women who make such reports? If not, then once again, you shouldn't make blanket statements like "it's not a simple mistake."
It's incredibly simple.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Do you really believe that commercial and military pilots that report UFO's are drunk? Seriously? Can you cite just one case where this has been confirmed? You are the one that is making blanket statements with out a shred of evidence to back it up.
xtraxritical
(3,576 posts)Occulus
(20,599 posts)really ought to be taken seriously and have their claims examined as seriously as their credentials warrant, wouldn't you say?
I'm about 99.999% certain that the pilots we're peripherally discussing have seen something, but if they're New Craft with functional inertial dampeners to account for their impossible flight paths and brand spanking new, never-before-seen propulsion methods, don't you think the media owes it to the public to rationally discuss such possibilities?
Note: I don't think they're seeing alien spacecraft. I think they're seeing new air/space craft built by us very Earthbound humans, and I'd very much like to know the characteristics of those craft and why they're considered so novel. Remember, the SR-71, the F-117, and the B2 bomber were all considered "UFOs" before they were unveiled.
I think these people really did see something, and I'd very much like to know how advanced the things they saw actually are.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Occulus
(20,599 posts)the public, and some of those same pilots, had never seen before.
I will not discount the claims made by pilots, but I will not classify those craft as alien spacecraft. They may be very advanced air/spacecraft, and they may have new systems undergoing testing, and some of those systems may indeed be most exotic, but I'm almost entirely certain they're all our construction.
That kind of makes it more exciting. Suppose we have built a functional inertial dampener. Suppose we have constructed a new propulsion system requiring no liquid or solid fuel, but using a frm of field propulsion powerful enough to account for ridiculously arbitrary movements during flight.
Isn't that a whole whole hell of a lot more exciting than "it's aliens"?
alarimer
(16,245 posts)Especially if Congress is wasting their time and taxpayer dollars on this nonsense.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)from personal experience and serious inquiry.
As noted in the past here (long ago posts) I have.
I am open minded on the topic. I found things I did not expect and which don't go along with either my religious or science side.
No simple way to explain what I have heard (or in rare cases seen). I try to keep an open mind and see that the universe is a lot more interesting and complex than my mind can grasp.
Apophis
(1,407 posts)but not so open-minded that your brain falls out.
Logical
(22,457 posts)So I guess everything is real!
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)'frame of reference.' Same here ... "I try to keep an open mind and see that the universe is a lot more interesting and complex than my mind can grasp."
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Your mind is not as open as you think it is.
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)result of ghosts, gods, or aliens, etc. It is rather those of you who haven't
had these experiences of putting words into our mouths. I, for one, who has
no idea of the origin of what I saw, who freely admits just that. Don't sign
me off as some lunatic fringe that believes in little green men aliens.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Ever pray to God?
ZX86
(1,428 posts)To conflate the topic with other paranormal topics is not a fair comparison. When the US Air Force convenes a committee of scientists to study ghosts and bigfoot you may have a point.
Mnemosyne
(21,363 posts)one many years ago. He was one of the sanest, calmest men you could meet. He did not believe until that night.
And President Carter saw...
I'm not saying it was space travelers they saw, but they did see something.
See post #105 also.
Logical
(22,457 posts)we basically have no better footage than we did 30 years ago.
Here is the hard evidence? A crashed ship from 100s of years ago? A ship flying over NYC? Etc?
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)anecdotal evidence in their cases..
..appeal to authority in yours.
two fallacies in one! we have a winner!
Jack Sprat
(2,500 posts)Pilots do matter. Police witnesses do matter. Astronaut witnesses do matter. Military personnel do matter as witnesses. All of them matter much more than just you. Who are you compared to any of them?
If we are to believe that you are the higher authority above all of these people, then I'd rather hear it from Bigfootville or the Easter Bunny.
You don't know anymore than anyone else about UFOs. Who are you kidding? You can't shit the shitter.
Logical
(22,457 posts)UFO sightings by Police and Pilots and Military are easily explained.
Jesus, where is your damn proof? Hard evidence?
Jack Sprat
(2,500 posts)All close-minded people are incapable of seeing beyond their own narrow vision. To you, I'm sure the earth remains as flat as it did when the Roman Church insisted that it was.
Most of us see infinite possibilities despite our admission that we have no absolute answers or absolute proof at this time. Can you solve the absolute answers to quantum mechanics? You give us all the impression that you have all the knowledge and just dispense it to us at your leisure. Suppose you just solve quantum theory for us and save science some valued time.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Pseudo science! I can't wait to read it!
Jack Sprat
(2,500 posts)You know everything.
Logical
(22,457 posts)NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)thanks for being open-minded!
Logical
(22,457 posts)NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)Sure, I'll look at such a list, but that hardly refutes your ridiculous overstatement.
aint_no_life_nowhere
(21,925 posts)doctrine, refusing to believe that intelligent life could evolve anywhere else than the place where God placed Adam and Eve.
After all, for some, the supposition is that 1) there are civilizations and intelligent life somewhere in the millions of stars contained in the estimated 50 billion galaxies in our universe and 2) one of more of these civilizations has detected us and arrived or had already expanded into our local area of space. Aliens = intelligent, civilized life. You can't compare it to ghosts, leprechauns or fairies because we’ve never had proof of at least one group of ghosts or leprechauns whereas we do have proof of at least one example of intelligent civilized life in the universe: ourselves. Therefore, the issue isn’t that intelligent life exists in the universe (we are the proof), it’s uniquely that there is somewhere a SECOND example of it beyond the Earth and that it has traveled here. Since scientists have theorized the probability of millions of space faring civilizations and their peoples in the countless habitable planets in the countless galaxies out there, the main controversy is one of travel, not of existence.
Then there is the claim that there is no physical evidence. Actually there is evidence of physical landings by heavy objects on the ground where eyewitnesses have claimed to have seen them. There is photographic and video evidence. There is radar evidence. There is evidence of radiation in the vegetation surrounding alleged landings. There is evidence of radiation burns on the bodies of eyewitnesses who claimed to have had ‘close encounters’. Of course there is multiple eyewitness evidence of people like airline pilots, military officers and police offers who didn’t previously know each other, located at different positions during the same alleged sighting. What other kind of evidence could there be? It leaves very few possibilities. The only other kind of evidence would be an actual crashed vehicle, one of its inhabitants, or both. If this involves a civilization with the technical wherewithall to get here, there's probably thousands of times less likelihood of a vehicle crashing than any man made vehicle crash landing. No government in the world would tolerate any private person remaining in possession of such evidence and that is exactly what eyewitnesses have claimed, such as in the Roswell incident. Therefore, the only type of evidence that would convince the non-believers is one that would not be allowed to be known to exist as soon as its private custodian reveals its existence.
And then there is the issue of what UFO means. It certainly doesn’t mean little green men. It’s something we can’t identify. There have been hundreds of thousands, perhaps even into the millions of sightings of things throughout the world in past decades. Almost all can be explained but there are some that cannot. Since the number of world sightings have been so numerous, even the small percentage of unexplained sightings around the world constitutes a significant number. Most of these accounts resemble each other in the strangeness of their details. Are people experiencing some form of psychosis or hallucination? Maybe. If so, that in itself would be worthy of scientific study since many eyewitnesses are professional people, law enforcement, military, and scientists who are disposed to not hallucinate very regularly.
And if the number of unexplained and strange sightings by reputable individuals doesn’t fit within the idea of a UFO or a mass hallucination, is there some other scientific explanation such as a natural phenomenon native to the Earth that we still don’t understand?
There are many scientists who have promoted the idea of studying UFOs because the various governments on Earth have not made an effort to do so. For example, Peter Sturrock, who has a Ph.D. in astrophysics from Cambridge, UK and is an emeritus professor of applied physics at Stanford University organized a panel of scientists to study the phenomenon a few years ago. It was the only such scientific panel study in the last 40 years. Here’s what professor Sturrock was quoted as saying by CNN at the conclusion of the panel’s study:
“…And the only question asked of the panel was that, do you believe that further study of this kind of case, this kind of evidence, might eventually lead to answers to the problem of understanding the cause or causes of UFO reports? And the panel felt, yes, this would be a promising line of research for the future….”
Sturrock describes some of the incidents studied by the panel in his book The UFO Enigma. He doesn’t claim that UFOs exist or claim to know what they are, but he promotes their further study, a notion Rachel Maddow seems to pooh-pooh. Sturrock is a celebrated scientist having extensively published and having won several awards and honors. He’s certainly no crackpot. Michio Kaku is another scientist who has proposed the real possibility that there is something definitely worth studying as far as UFOs are concerned. Considering the resumes of just these two scientists, I’d take their expert opinions over Rachel’s (whom I generally admire) in this instance.
Peter Sturrock
B.A., Cambridge University, 1945
M.S., Cambridge University, 1948
Ph.D., Cambridge University, 1951
Radar Research Establishment, 1943-1946
St. John's College and Cavendish Laboratory, Cambridge, England, 1946-1949
National Bureau of Standards, 1949-1950
Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique Fellow, University of Paris, 1950-1951
Atomic Energy Research Establishment, Harwell, 1951-1953
Fellow, St. Johns College Cambridge, 1952-1955
Research Associate, Microwave Laboratory, Stanford Univeristy, 1955-61
Ford Fellow, European Organization for Nuclear Research, Geneva, Switzerland, 1958-1959
Professor of Space Science and Astrophysics, 1961-present
Director, Institute for Plasma Research, Stanford, 1964-1974, 1980-1983
Deputy Director, Center for Space Science and Astrophysics, 1983-1999
Fellow, American Association for the Advancement of Science
Fellow, American Physical Society
Fellow, Royal Astronomical Society
President, Society for Scientific Exploration, 1981-2001
Rayleigh Prize, Cambridge University, 1949
Gravity Foundation Prize, 1967
Hale Prize, American Astronomical Society, 1986
Arctowski Medal, National Academy of Sciences, 1990
Space Science Award, American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, 1993
Quantess
(27,630 posts)Usually she only weaves off-topic things to tie into relevant events.
OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)http://www.wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/1975RABAT01225_b.html
1. PERHAPS RELATED TO PHENOMENA DESCRIBED REFTEL, MARCH
18 LE MATIN CARRIED REPORT THAT HUNDREDS OF CASABLANCANS
HAD SEEN TWO UFOS HOVERING WEST OF CITY ON PRECEDING
EVENING. OBJECTS DESCRIBED AS GREENISH IN COLOR, BECOMING
LUMINOUS BEFORE RISING SLOWLY TO DISAPPEAR OVER
WESTERN HORIZON. ON FOLLOWING DAY, PAPER SAID SAME
PHENOMENON OBSERVED OVER RABAT AND FES AND EVEN OVER
NORTH OF SPAIN BUT EXPLAINED IT AS NO MORE THAN AN INFREQUENT
CONJUNCTION OF VENUS WITH SIRIUS, CITING "AMATEUR CASABLANCA
ASTROLOGIST" AS AUTHORITY. (WE PRESUME ASTRONOMIST TERM
INTENDED).
2. WE HAVE NOT BEEN QUERIED OFFICIALLY BY GOM AUTHORITIES
ON PHENOMENON AND HAVE SEEN NO REPORTS ON OTHER UFO
SIGHTINGS. LE MATIN'S EXPLANATIONS SEEM TO HAVE SATISFIED
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
PAGE 02 RABAT 01225 110917Z
THE FEW DIPLOMATS AND OTHER OBSERVERS WHO INITIALLY
WONDERED WHETHER THE U.S. MIGHT HAVE BEEN INVOLVED.
NEUMANN
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
https://www.wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/1976RABAT05209_b.html
1. YESTERDAY, THE 23RD OF SEPTEMBER, COL HOUSNI BENSLIMANE,
COMMANDER OF THE ROYAL GENDARMERIE, REQUESTED TO SEE ME AT
1000 HOURS THE SAME DAY. WHEN HE ARRIVED, COL BENSLIMANE SAID
THAT THE KING HAD SENT HIM TO DISUCSS THE SIGHTINGS OF
UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS (UFO'S) OVER MOROCCO ON THE NIGHT
OF 18-19 SEPTEMBER. ACCORDING TO COL BENSLIMANE, THE
GENDARMERIE HAD RECEIVED CALLS FROG AGADIR, THE MARRAKECH AREA,
CASABLANCA, RABAT, KENITRA AND OTHER AREAS REPORTING THE
SIGHTING OF UFO'S BETWEEN THE HOURS OF 0100 AND 0130, THE
NIGHT OF 18-19 SEPTEMBER. REPORTS FROM THESE WIDELY SEPARATE
LOCATIONS WERE REMARKABLY SIMILAR, I.E., THAT THE OBJECT WAS
ON A GENERALLY SOUTHWEST TO NORTHEAST COURSE, IT WAS A
SILVERY LUMINOUS CIRCULAR SHAPE AND GAVE OFF INTERMITTENT TRAILS
OF BRIGHT SPARKS AND FRAGMENTS, AND MADE NO NOISE. HE PROMISED
TO PROVIDE FURTHER DETAILS TODAY, THE 24TH OF SEPTEMBER AND
ASKED THAT WE FURNISH ANY INFORMATION THAT WE MIGHT HAVE ON
THESE SIGHTINGS. COL BENSLIMANE SAID THE KING WAS PERSONALLY
INTERESTED. I PROMISED THAT WE WOULD DO WHAT WE COULD.
2. TODAY, THE 24TH, A MAJOR MOHAMED LISSAOUI OF THE ROYAL
GENDARMERIE MET WITH DATT AND GAVE HIM A SUMMARY OF THE
SIGHTINGS. LISSAOUI ALSO PERMITTED DATT TO LOOK AT DRAWINGS
CONFIDENTIAL
CONFIDENTIAL
PAGE 02 RABAT 05209 250817Z
OF THE UFO PREPARED BY VARIOUS INDIVIDUALS, INCLUDING HIMSELF,
WHO HAD SIGHTED THE UFO.
3. THE TIMES OF THE SIGHTINGS VARIED FROM 0100 TO 0200 HOURS
ON THE MORNING OF 19 SEPTEMBER, WITH THE MAJORITY OF THEM OCCURRING
BETWEEN 0100 AND 0130 HOURS. SIGHTINGS WERE REPORTED FROM
AGADIR, KALAA-SRAGHNA, ESSAOUIRA, CASABLANCA, RABAT, KENITRA,
MEKNES AND THE FEZ REGION. THERE WAS GENERAL AGREEMENT THAT THE
UFO WAS PROCEEDING ON AN APPROXIMATELY SOUTH TO NORTH COURSE,
GENERALLY PARALLEL TO THE MOROCCAN ATLANTIC COAST, AT AT
ESTIMATED ALTITUDE OF 1,000 METERS, AND THAT THERE WAS
ABSOLUTELY NO SOUND FROM THE UFO.
4. DESCRIPTIONS OF THE UFO FELL INTO TWO GENERAL CATEGORIES,
I.E., A TYPE OF SILVER COLORED LUMINOUS FLATTENED BALL (DISC-
SHAPED), OR A LARGE LUMINOUS TUBE-SHAPED OBJECT. OBSERVERS
REPORTED THAT THE OBJECT INTERMITTENTLY EMITTED BRIGHT SPARKS
FROM THE REAR.
5. MAJOR LISSAOUI SAID HE WAS SENT TO BRIEF DATT ON THE
SUBJECT BECAUSE HE HAD HIMSELF SIGHTED THE UFO WHILE RETURNING
FROM THE CITY OF KENITRA AT ABOUT 0115 IN THE MORNING. HE
DESCRIBED THE UFO AS FLYING PARALLEL TO THE COAST AT A RELATIVELY
SLOW SPEED, AS IF IT WERE AN AIRCRAFT PREPARING TO LAND. IT
FIRST APPEARED TO HIM AS A DISC-SHAPED OBJECT, BUT AS IT CAME
CLOSER HE SAW IT AS A LUMINOUS TUBULAR-SHAPED OBJECT.
6. I FRANKLY DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO MAKE OF THESE SIGHTINGS,
ALTHOUGH I FIND INTRIGUING THE SIMILARITY OF DESCRIPTIONS
REPORTED FROM WIDELY DISPERSED LOCATIONS. IN ANY EVENT, I WISH
TO BE ABLE TO RESPOND PROMPTLY TO KING HASSAN'S REQUEST FOR
INFORMATION, AND WOULD APPRECIATE ANYTHING YOU CAN DO TO
ASSIST ME IN THIS.
ANDERSON
CONFIDENTIAL
It's important to get ahead of the curve and manage opinion. Got to make sure the people asking questions aren't taken seriously.
MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)Doesn't belong in General
ZX86
(1,428 posts)The topic is news journalism.
MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Of a UFO citizen's hearing at the National Press Club where former members of Congress, including Mike Gravel, are getting paid 20k each. It's about weird news, but news nonetheless.
Logical
(22,457 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)That makes it easy to laugh at.
For the record, no doubt there is intelligent life in the Universe, but if they have actual evidence the powerful do not want it out. I believe we would see panic.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)UFO sightings south of the border are reported often. The military released one the Air Force got.
Here in the US...I believe we would see a real end of days panic.
Brazil and France pretty much have released files too.
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)spring evening in 1983. One of my best experiences and I'll never
forget it. It turned out I wasn't the only one that evening who saw
it. I reported early next day to local police who told me in confidence
officers too had such experiences as did an American Airline's pilot.
Interesting you mention the sightings south of the border. I saw a
documentary earlier this winter on Hulu about them. Most interesting.
Too many people have seen them for us all to be kooks. imho
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)..and bigfoot and nessie..
paleeze. personal anecdotes are not evidence and yes, it is asking *too much* too take your word for it.
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)
Feel better?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Then there is the other 3% that can't.
The difference is a few national governments are quite open to the possibility, ours, not so much.
In fact, project blue book was used as a tool of control, not done in any serious way.
And if you think we are alone in the Universe....
I will leave it at that.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)..just that no life form can make it from one star system to another. it's not a matter of technological feasibility, but of the physical constraints of the universe itself.
there *probably is* life on other planets, but those life forms are not ever coming here, and we are never going there.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Nowhere near fast enough...read on solar sail technology.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)..still nowhere within a lifetime of any life form.
then there's this problem.. as the velocity of the R.S. increases, it requires exponentially more energy to go 1 m/s faster. what's worse, as the ship approaches even C/2, it starts to resemble light itself. get up to 3C/4 or so and the rocket and everyone in it are not just dead, they are basically just random bits of incoherent matter getting sucked into nebulae. go light speed and you are light. blink. bye.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I played with one type of drive in fiction, that a few physicists said it's also possible. I guarantee both, if all the technical issues, see energy chiefly, are overcome, are not just within lifetimes, but in one case within minutes... It will take half an hour for you to make the translation from Alpha Centauri to Earth... Two hours, calculations needed not to jump into the sun, from a system 50 LY from Earth, such as my fictional Chara II. (The actual Chara system is closer)
I have talked to people who do this thing called particle physics and string theory.
One of them happens to be my cousin, when we rarely see each other we talk of this shit, not because little green men are visiting, but because we will need to leave the solar system or go extinct. What pray tell you tells you other intelligent species did not, or are not, having the same needs? Stars have finite fuel up you know. Any intelligent species will understand the life of stars once it reaches a certain tech level.
But right now we can, theoretically mind you, cross interstellar space with our current tech base. Oh and building a gen ship would take the World's GNP for a generation. I have no idea, neither do you, if we survive technological adolescence, if and when we will develop possible FTL.
Anybody who has, is way ahead of us. So earth is visited (if at all) for research in a benign way, or scouts to strip it of resources.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)You are correct.
There was a time humans did not control fire either. It is theorized that it was that event that led to brain development due to more easily processed proteins and vitamins in the long term it led to agriculture and writing.
I would say that FTL travel would be in the same category as fire.
Bay Boy
(1,689 posts)...but just a reminder that UFO means Unidentified Flying Object and not necessarily from an alien planet.
First instance I was driving down a city street and saw a fantastic display of flashing lights flying slowly over the city I live in still!
I stopped and pulled over, got out of my car and stared at it. As it got closer it finally came into to full view. It was a small private plane with an array of lights slung under the wings that flashed the message "Vote for Smith for Mayor". If I hadn't been in a position to stop and get a good look at this airplane I'm sure I would have thought it was something extraterrestrial to this day.
My second experience was along Lake Huron. I saw a red and green light hovering above the horizon coming right at me as I stood on the shore. As I stood dumbstruck at this sight it continued coming at me and now I could hear it too! It continued coming at me and then revealed itself to be a boat. What had confused me is that there was a fog on the water that I wasn't aware of. This fog created a false horizon that I wasn't aware of. If this boat had turned 90 degrees and continued it's journey in any other direction I would have been left thinking this was extraterrestrial also.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)A very bright light at 03:00 hours. Was so intense that it woke me up, no sound. So a chopper it could not be.
The other two were very much earth based phenomena.
In Mexico though, UFO sightings are almost accepted and nobody makes fun of it. The Government has also been very open (like a few other governments). The US government s almost alone in saying that there are no unexplained cases. Within US borders, probably, many of the 3% are classified aircraft.
There is a slow trend towards like what it looks like disclosure. I am assuming there s something to this, why the disclosure movement.
I am willing to bet most of that 3% are explainable, but if only one event can't be explained, then we are talking of possibilities here.
And I am still pretty much in the what if school of thought because asking questions and looking at the possibilities has led to advances...I like to throw the same exact caveats people like Michio Kaku, degrassee Tyson and Car Sagan, rip, like to throw in as well. It just opens the possibility.
But that experience as a young child, pretty much made me read science fiction and science, and look into space exploration...amazing eh.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)I was driving home after dark one evening from a high school dress rehearsal of the King & I.
My five yr. old daughter was one of the King's kids....so she was with me. We came within about
2 miles of our neighborhood and I could see red flashing lights ahead....a lot of them. I thought, oh no, I just want to get my daughter home asap.
As we approached closer I realized the lights
were somewhat elevated but not way up in the sky. Driving ever closer to a stop sign at a cross street I thought that I was going to soon see one gigantic helicopter....it was hovering over the pine tree studded parkway (the cross street). When I stopped at the stop sign I was about forty feet or less from the base of the trees and this 'thing' was still there and the lights were VERY bright. I rolled down my window because I couldn't hear anything...helicopter like...and still didn't. We just sat there dumbfounded. The thing didn't move at all. My daughter pointed at the object and said, "ET Mommy! ET!" It was then I knew we both were on the same page.
I suppose it was a couple minutes and it moved a bit left and then right and slowly moved down the parkway to my right. Well, I had to follow it....I did...it speeded up as did I and then it started to really move and so did I...which was stupid with my daughter in the car but I did. There weren't any other cars around....sleepy little village of commuters and people cranked it down early on week nights having to catch early morning trains to Chicago. I was probably going 60 in a 30 down the street following this thing when the road ends at the entrance of a golf course. The thing turned right again over the clubhouse and ""WHOOSH" it disappeared into the night sky!
My husband thought I was kooky but my daughter set him straight! The next day I reported it to the police basically to find out if others had seen it and to the Hynek Center at NorthWestern University in Evanston north of Chicago. The latter told me there were similar sightings 80 miles south after the time I saw it and that was the direction it was headed before the "WHOOSH"!
Hynek found no military explanation, of course, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it!
What always got me was that it was so quiet and it hovered! ?????
immoderate
(20,885 posts)--imm
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)I wasn't searching to see a UFO, nor did I even know much about them.
It just happened most unexpectantly and my daughter and I were
almost entranced. People can say what ever they want but to this day
my daughter, who will be 35 in a month, remembers. I'm just passing
on what I saw.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)If you are not suggesting that, then just what are you suggesting?
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)bright...but my guess is it was eliptical in shape. I don't know anything about
what the U.S. has for aircraft. Anyone's guess is as good as mine. It was an
experience!
2naSalit
(86,586 posts)I will be blasted for this but I have seen a variety of "things" in the sky and I am sure you saw something that may not be of human construction. I might live out in the sticks but it gives me a far clearer view of the night sky by having no light pollution. I see the satellites pass overhead regularly, am well aware of most military craft, am acquainted with individuals who have even more "qualified" knowledge of the crafts made by/for American military. And I have been in the company of others while watching these "things" fly over our remote location. We have seen some pretty odd stuff, from small to frighteningly large crafts rather often of late, and yes, we know what drones are and have seen them too... and what I am talking about are not even close to drones. IN fact, there have been over a dozen in the past year. I don't have a camera that would accommodate the speeds of these things at night, one would have to be waiting with high-powered lenses and high-speed digital capabilities ON A TRIPOD to capture clear and to some plausible imagery to satisfy naysayers, be we saw what we saw and nobody can tell us that we did not see anything of interest regarding "not of human construction" objects in the night sky.
Those who adamantly oppose any mention of such sightings can flame us and denigrate what I have said to their satisfaction but what I have seen, over many decades, is what I saw. I do not have a clean explanation of what they are/were but they didn't look like anything humans on this planet would have constructed or have any control over.
If you live in an artificially lighted environment, and from reading many posts on this web site not many of you do... you might not have a chance at seeing the sky with an unjaded perception of what's out there regardless of your indoctrination in the sciences.
Archae
(46,327 posts)A much simpler (and more plausible) story says simply, these UFO tales are the Cold War/Space Age version of old fairy stories.
It's real easy to say "I saw a UFO!"
But what was it?
A refracted star or planet?
An advertising balloon like the "UFO" I saw on my way home?
These groups who keep screaming "government cover-up" just can't get the evidence they would need, since it isn't there.
And nowadays just about every third person on the street has a camera in their telephone.
Yet to date, no clear photos or videos.
Some fakes that the guy who made them admitted were fake, to show they could be made.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)tangible truth is still lacking!
Archae
(46,327 posts)Just as there is no tangible truth for unicorns, dragons, Hobbits, fairies or the Easter Bunny.
It's called the human imagination.
And our imaginations can up with things we just *KNOW* are "out there," but in reality they are just imaginary.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Just as imaginary and lacking tangible truth as unicorns, dragons, Hobbits, fairies or the Easter Bunny.
Surely you agree?
longship
(40,416 posts)Half the people in the country already believe that UFOs are space aliens. I don't think they are panicking, do you?
Seth Shostek of the SETI Institute said that the last time they had a credible intelligent signal they heard from the NYTimes, but never from any government agency. The mystery lasted a bit more than a day before the signal was identified as not alien intelligence. But apparently the folks at the radio observatories were very busy that day before they figured it out.
Nobody panicked, nor would they, I believe.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)But I do believe quite a few in the general population would panic.
Me...I am mostly curious, but thnk Bible Belt.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)on Hwy 50 across Nevada and if any of you know US 50 you know how completely empty it is and back in the 70s and 80s you wouldn't see a car for 100 miles or an hour and sometimes more. Anyway, I saw 3 "things" flying at a speed I could not imagine in close formation from one horizon to the other about 500 ft altitude following the contour of the ground. I had never seen anything like it before with rounded flat edges. I jumped out of the car and watched them disappear. That was my UFO story for several years.
Years later watching the news, I was confounded to see them. What I saw in 1981 must have been early test flights of stealth fighters. They must have been top secret at the time. I looked at a map and noticed the flight path was from one military area to another to the north.
So much for my UFO story. Haven't seen a UFO since.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Unexplained flying object, and most are explainable, sometimes years later.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)ghosts, leprechauns, or Bigfoot while on duty I think it's a story worth investigating. Hallucinating in the cockpit is a public safety issue.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)
..sorry.. that one's still burning.
Purveyor
(29,876 posts)found on this planet...at least while humans roam.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Purveyor
(29,876 posts)
immoderate
(20,885 posts)
--imm
2naSalit
(86,586 posts)I didn't know there was a vid on youtube, thanks for the post!
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)2naSalit
(86,586 posts)And I hope you have some molecular reconstruction process as it will be ashes immediately after I'm done with all my other parts too!
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)zappaman
(20,606 posts)
Whisp
(24,096 posts)everybody know That.
This is something like Galileo days and thoughts, isn't it? wot? WOT?
Deep13
(39,154 posts)UFO conspiracy theorists are in the same boat as those who think vaccines cause autism and those who think the POTUS is a foreigner.
There is no reason to investigate a non-issue, especially since it was debunked 50 years ago. It distracts from real problems and real issues.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)vaccines cause autism and the origin of birther nonsense. These "non-issues" are explored and explained all the time.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)Ever see the NOVA documentary on the intelligent design trial in Dover, Pennsylvania? It was great. They showed how the lawyers traced back the entire creation science hoax to religious fanatics pushing an agenda.
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)me. Who debunked UFOs 50 years ago? Just one sighting or were
all sightings debunked? Thank you.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)...was debunked. It was the fears of the Other projected into the space age. Plus, the universe is pretty roomy.
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)the fear of others....out into space. Yes, I'm aware the the universe is
roomy, as you put it, obviously big enough to include UFOs.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)..and *too big* to include alien life forms traveling from one star to another.
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)..i am not the topic of discussion.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Star travel would take generations, but it is actually technically possible. Right now Solar Sails could take us to oh Alpha Centauri in twenty human generations or so.
FTL, is possible in the form of a star drive as posited in Star Trek, no, Warp Drives are not just fantasy, physicists believe it might be possible. As technology advances we will find a way to do such as well, either that or die with this solar system.
In fact, the speed of light is now thought not to be absolute, and areas of space have different speeds, depending on dark matter.
As to others visiting Earth, if it is happening, big if there, it's the Anthropology class coming to see the strange happenings here, from Gliesse III, (no, did not make up the star or the planet...it is in the Life Zone)...and are so damn advanced let's continue to hope they think we are just a good study subject and not a threat.
Anybody capable of crossing interstellar space...we are puny.
You would do well to read more into what actual scientists have to say on the subject, in fact...the science channel had a marvelous series last month on that.
They played with all kinds of possibilities. But then again, closed minds are wonderful. The reality is that 3% of all sightings can't be explained.
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)...then we can guess any space-faring beings would have colonized outward from their home world, as we will also do someday soon. Too many folks start with the supposition that there are no beings who could traverse the vast distances of space when inhabitable worlds are many light years away. That's certainly true, but only if you believe they begin their travels from the home world and with our level of technology.
Frankly, though, I would more likely believe any curious and technologically advanced people would send out probes, not living beings, for exploration. No reason to leave the comfort of one's alien living room in order to explore the wonders of space.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Voyager is a fascinating program, just now reaching the Kuiper belt.
What I was addressing is the fact that interstellar travel is possible right now...it is a one way ticket and would take generations.
When people say it is not possible...it is...we could...right now.
And robotic probes, we have effectively already launched the first interstellar probe.
We will overcome Voyager with probes specifically designed of that in the next hundred years...but if we are just putting our toes into the stellar ocean, and there are others more advanced out there...
In my spare time I still read astronomy and exo biology and the NASA pages. I am fascinated not just by the practical side of research, but the possibilities.
And if there is somebody out there, and they are trying the same we are, there is an astronomically small chance we will contact each other. If that ever happens, it will change humanity in ways we can't predict.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)What's sad is how some people treat the topic like a religion and talk about their "faith" in it. Their "belief".
This is a major turn off for people who deal in reality.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)Gore1FL
(21,130 posts)I have seen her go over-the-top in stupid and unprofessional ways that do not become her normal standards.
Riftaxe
(2,693 posts)as practiced by the Fox/MSNBC crowd have professional standards?
Gore1FL
(21,130 posts)I expect bias form both. When a segment needlessly divides her audience in an attempt to be funny, she does dive into "Fox and Friends" levels.
I didn't the show last night. I can't speak for or against the segment discussed in the OP either in content or presentation. She does have an occasional history of not kaboshing things that are clearly echo-chamber jokes from her staff meetings. It doesn't become her.
gateley
(62,683 posts)If you're going to mock for the hell of it, what makes you any better than FOX?
It's pretty rude and classless to insult peoples' personal beliefs.
I don't believe in God, but I don't mock people who do.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)The Citizens Hearing is not a collection of people espousing their belief systems. It's about real people testifying their alleged first hand knowledge UFO encounters or UFO evidence. If they are naive dupes or enterprising hucksters I have no problem with them being mocked. I would just like some information first, like this person reporting seeing the UFO has a history mental illness, an arrest record as a con artist, he used to take a lot of acid in the hippy days. Something. Just mocking with no additional information just doesn't cut it for me.
Jack Sprat
(2,500 posts)she believes nothing will come of it and that it's all for show. Plus the cost of presenting it seems unnecessarily astronomical.
No doubt they will discuss witness sightings, which everyone acknowledges are unidentified flying objects. But since nobody can produce proof of what the objects are or whether they are flying under intelligent guidance, it will all end up where it started....unknown origin.
I personally believe that the now thousands of witnesses have definitely seen UFOs of some kind, but until it is known or becomes known what is guiding their flight, it will remain an open question.
So we wait and continue to wait. Air Force personnel have now gone on the record as witnesses themselves. But the regular Air Force is not even kept abreast of advanced R&D like Area 51. UFOs files are under the auspices of a separate and higher level of government, I believe. What do you think?
gateley
(62,683 posts)or aren't.
These people must be frustrated and if they are top secret, they'll never get their questions answered.
As for extra terrestrial -- who knows? I'd like it to be (and in a way it seems odd if we're the only intelligently inhabited planet capable of space travel). But the bottom line is I haven't had a sighting or been affected in any way, and although I feel for these people who are wondering and even scared, I'm not too interested one way or another.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)..if there was a 'citizen hearing' demanding the 'truth' about sightings of the second coming.. well as far as i'm concerned they put themselves there *for me to mock*. indeed they would serve no more useful purpose, imo.
gateley
(62,683 posts)Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)they've gotten answers.. they just didn't like them.
gateley
(62,683 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)But witnesses giving first hand testimony. Commercial and military pilots, air traffic controllers, sworn military and law enforcement types. I really have no problem with you or any other crank on the internet mocking them but I expect a little more from a news organization whose job it is to inform the public.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)We're alone in this galaxy.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)The issue is why are commercial and military pilots reporting solid, intelligently controlled objects while on duty?
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)Commercial and military pilots are reporting seeing intelligently controlled objects that are not conventional aircraft. As a news consumer I'd like to know what is causing this. Mocking the entire issue is lazy journalism.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)AKA: Pablum.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)..are pushing 'intelligent design' in the workplace. this does not mean we have to give them any more credibility than the flat earthers or geocentrists.
it's called an appeal to authority and it doesn't count.
Apophis
(1,407 posts) Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Those who treat it and everyone associated with it as a carnival full of hucksters and con artists that put on a show for the rubes, but it's a really good show that's lots of fun.
Those with a lot of hope that it's real because it would be really COOL to find out there is more,..etc, Horacio.
And finally those who have actually SEEN stuff.
Count me in the last group.
Javaman
(62,528 posts)those who don't care.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Javaman
(62,528 posts)
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts) <----The "little green man"Javaman
(62,528 posts) Apophis
(1,407 posts)I see them all the time.
But I don't associate them with aliens.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Apophis
(1,407 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Apophis
(1,407 posts)The eye of Ra looks like the disc of the sun.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)A soft glowing object at extremely high altitude going a thousand plus mph did a 90° turn without slowing down.
roscoeroscoe
(1,370 posts)i've seen several mysterious sights in the sky; above ft. bliss tx, above iraq, and north east of area 51. my father saw one of the mass ufo sightings over new york city. we know people who saw the mass of ufo's that rose out of the santa monica channel some years ago. so i have some personal experience.
also, i follow the topic closely. you know, there's an early stereo photo of a ufo? another photo taken in something like 1927. there are fading polaroids at the lil' alien in rachel, nv of cowboys, or fishermen, with big silver craft sliding across the sky behind them.
there is an active disinformation campaign on the situation, going all the way back. so, sure, be a sceptic, but please don't paint with the broad brush. without being any kind of true believer, i feel fairly confident that something is going on and has been for a long time. ufo's, planetary mysteries. may i suggest john keel, jacques vallee, and the book hunt for the skinwalker.
we really don't know much about the greater world yet.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Jack Sprat
(2,500 posts)Or I think so. You are right. There are far too many reliable and credible witnesses to scoff at it all. And the ones who are scoffing at you have no reliable evidence to the contrary. Many of them scoff at anything that isn't absolute and proven.
The most impressive account of a UFO encounter for me was the sighting by the Deputy Base Commander and USAF SP unit in 1980 at the RAF base in England. This incident included an actual touching of the craft during its' time on the ground. The TSgt who examined the circumference of it made notes, felt the warmth of its' outside surface, and felt a pulsing of whatever propulsion system it had. Now maybe they are all lying and fabricating the story, but I have a gut feeling they were being honest.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)at best or heresy at worst. I keep an open mind.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)there was no evidence for planets orbiting other stars. It didn't mean they didn't exist. It was just beyond our science at the time. That of course isn't proof that Earth is being visited by alien spaceships but our present day understanding of the universe is not the be all and end all of scientific knowledge.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)I think we know far less than what remains to be known.
randome
(34,845 posts)RKP5637
(67,108 posts)about the universe and beyond. We haven't even made it to being infants ...
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)The question is whether or not Earth has been visited by aliens, and there is not one single shred of scientific evidence to support that. Scientists pretty much universally reject the claim that we have been visited by aliens, there are no peer reviewed scientific studies to suggest visitation.
No one is saying we are alone in the universe, scientists have been working for years to find evidence of life on other planets, scientists will not claim we are alone in the universe but most of them do think we are alone on Earth.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)Then why doesn't Rachel invite these scientists on her show and inform her audience instead of just mocking the entire subject matter?
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)People who try to make alien visitations a political issue deserve to be mocked.
If you want to watch intelligent discussion about the search for alien life that is based on real science rather than tin foil hat speculation then dig out some old Carl Sagan documentaries. Sadly since his death we have not seen much smart discussion on this topic, instead we get History Channel nut jobs.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)climate change, oil in the environment, etc. That's a non-starter.
Usually Rachel cuts through the BS on the topics she covers. If a group of right wingers claim that they are pro-life are having a rally she will correctly focus her story on the anti-woman aspects of the affair and the history of the participants being anti-woman. The story on this UFO Citizen Hearing is not whether alien life is visiting Earth but why are commercial and military pilots claiming to see UFO's. That's the story here.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)She has scientists on to discuss real issues related to politics, alien visitations are not a real issue that effect anyone's lives. You can not pretend climate change science and UFO speculation are even remotely related.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)If they weren't Rachel wouldn't be covering the topic on her show. You can't have it both ways. Either the subject matter is worth discussion on her show or it isn't.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)The other is only worthy of mockery. Sorry, but not everything is worthy of serious discussion, I don't expect Maddow to have serious discussions on Bigfoot sightings or unicorns either.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)the bigfoot you may have a point. When witnesses the caliber of commercial and military pilots report seeing bigfoot you may have a point. When world governments such as France and Brazil release their documents on bigfoot you may have point. Until then you're just blowing smoke.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)You are the one that is blowing smoke by trying to compare the two. UFO sightings have far more in common with Bigfoot sightings than they do with climate science.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Why did the U.S. Air Force commission a study on it? What about the COMETA Report? The following people participated. Do you consider them a bunch loons?
General Bruno Lemoine, Air Force (former auditor of IHEDN)
Admiral Marc Merlo, (former auditor of IHEDN)
Michel Algrin, Doctor in Political Sciences, attorney at law (former auditor of IHEDN)
General Pierre Bescond, engineer for armaments (former auditor of IHEDN)
Denis Blancher, Chief National Police superintendent at the Ministry of the Interior
Christian Marchal, chief engineer of the National Corps des Mines and Research Director at the National Office of Aeronautical
Research (ONERA)
General Alain Orszag, Ph.D. in physics, armaments engineer
Jean-Jacques Velasco, head of SEPRA at CNES
François Louange, President of Fleximage, specializing in photo analysis
General Joseph Domange, of the Air Force, general delegate of the Association of Auditors at IHEDN.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)I am not familiar with COMETA in particular, but I will read up on who these people are. I am not going to either embrace or dismiss them until I know more about them than just their names and titles.
I do know however that NASA is not putting out any evidence of UFOs, and I am not seeing a wealth of peer reviewed studies on UFOs, instead most scientists seem to laugh at the UFO nuts.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COMETA
I think you're getting my point. There is not a lot of peer reviewed studies on UFO's. There is not a lot of credible journalism on the UFO topic. Just mocking. If all these commercial and military pilots who are reporting UFO sightings are crazy, liars, or just mistaken let's have the scientific and journalistic communities investigate and put it all to rest. Mocking is a poor substitute for legitimate investigations.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)I also just found a clip of the Maddow segment you were talking about, she cited facts about the fake Congressional hearing that is being funded with big money from an unknown source, while there was some mocking the story was more focused on the facts of the case than it was on mocking. She showed exactly why the people holding this fake hearing deserve to be mocked.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)I wish it was peer reviewed. That's the point. There is a dearth of serious reporting and investigations on widespread reporting of UFO activity made by commercial and military pilots, sworn military and law enforcement officials.
I fail to see who is funding the fake hearing makes any difference. Did she bother ask? As far as I know it's not secret. I assume it's from donations to various UFO groups. But even if it's some singular rich guy what does it matter? What matters is the testimony presented and the credibility of the witnesses.
I remember when Con. Conyers had to hold unofficial meetings in the Capitol basement regarding the Iraq War. Do you believe the entire WMD topic deserved mocking too because it was not an official meeting?
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)That puts one massive dent in their credibility if you ask me. Rachel was absolutely right to call this fraud out.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)The credibility of the witnesses is what matters. Otherwise every committee that has a Republican on it would have no credibility.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)So you have a panel in which each member was paid off with tens of thousands of dollars from an unknown funding source and eye witnesses who saw something they can not explain. If they can't explain it of course the UFO nuts will interpret that as proof that we have been invaded by aliens. People who take this hearing seriously should be mocked.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)How does who sits on the mock congressional panel relate to the quality of testimony being given?
Additionally eye witness testimony is an accepted form of evidence in every court room in the nation. Has been for hundreds of years.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Will probably be laughed at by a jury.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Do this regularly in the science channel for example.
NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts):eyeroll:
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Show me some documented evidence to support alien visitation and I will open my mind to the idea, the problem is over decades of claims no one has been able to produce one single piece of physical evidence. With all the cameras in the world it seems that at least one person could get a photo that is more detailed than a blurry grey oval off in the distant sky.
As someone else said we should all be open minded but not so open minded that our brains fall out.
NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)there is a lot of info out there, and a lot of junk. There is a lot of disinformation too, because this is an officially verboten topic and it's very clear the govt doesn't people to know just how much good UFO evidence there is.
So I think it's unrealistic for this to be studied the same way as normal science. I also think it's unrealistic for you to expect physical evidence to be out there for everyone to see.
A lot of people just want to write this all of as kooky conspiracy theory stuff, but believe me, the whole topic is way more complicated and real than most people seem to want to admit.
Maybe this would be of interest:
http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-National-Security-State-Chronology/dp/1571743170/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1365967647&sr=8-2&keywords=richard+dolan
"Richard M. Dolan is a gifted historian whose study of U.S. Cold War strategy led him to the broader context of increased security measures and secrecy since World War II. One aspect of such government policies that has continued to hold the public's imagination for over half a century is the question of unidentified flying objects.
UFOs and the National Security State is the first volume of a two-part detailed chronological narrative of the national security dimensions of the UFO phenomenon from 1941 to the present. Working from hundreds of declassified records and other primary and secondary sources, Dolan centers his investigation on the American military and intelligence communities, demonstrating that they take UFOs seriously indeed.
Included in this volume are the activities of more than fifty military bases relating to UFOs, innumerable violations of sensitive airspace by unknown craft and analyses of the Roswell controversy, the CIA-sponsored Robertson Panel, and the Condon Committee Report. Dolan highlights the development of civilian anti-secrecy movements, which flourished in the 1950s and 1960s until the adoption of an official government policy and subsequent "closing of the door" during the Nixon administration."
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)There are no aliens visiting Earth, if there are mysterious aircrafts appearing in the sky then we absolutely should try to identify them but too often the people who think they can identify them are nutcases who have no clue as to what they are talking about yet think they have unravelled some huge conspiracy. The problem is instead of actually investigating what the unidentified craft actually are people want to immediately assume that they are alien spacecraft when there is absolutely no evidence to support such a possibility.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)The participants of the COMETA Report would disagree. There is a big difference between conclusive evidence and no evidence. You are being disingenuous to say there is "no evidence". Here is a list of the participants.
General Bruno Lemoine, Air Force (former auditor of IHEDN)
Admiral Marc Merlo, (former auditor of IHEDN)
Michel Algrin, Doctor in Political Sciences, attorney at law (former auditor of IHEDN)
General Pierre Bescond, engineer for armaments (former auditor of IHEDN)
Denis Blancher, Chief National Police superintendent at the Ministry of the Interior
Christian Marchal, chief engineer of the National Corps des Mines and Research Director at the National Office of Aeronautical
Research (ONERA)
General Alain Orszag, Ph.D. in physics, armaments engineer
Jean-Jacques Velasco, head of SEPRA at CNES
François Louange, President of Fleximage, specializing in photo analysis
General Joseph Domange, of the Air Force, general delegate of the Association of Auditors at IHEDN
The group was responsible for the 'COMETA Report' (1999) on UFOs and their possible implications for defence in France. The report concluded that about 5% of the UFO cases they studied were utterly inexplicable and the best hypothesis to explain them was the extraterrestrial hypothesis (ETH).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COMETA
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)No one making these claims is putting their evidence up for peer review, there is no science here at all only unsubstantiated claims.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts) ZX86
(1,428 posts)You're hung up on whether UFO's exist or not. The issue is commercial and military pilots are reporting them. I don't want pilots reporting crazy nonsense then allowed back in the cockpit. Do you? That's the problem with the radical debunkers. So focused on mocking woo and completely ignoring the public safety issue of commercial and military pilots weaving bizarre stories of their on duty experiences.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Pointing out that alien visitation speculation is not science makes me a radical debunker?
For your info I believe people have seen strange objects in the sky, what I do not buy into is the absurd notion that those strange objects are alien spacecraft.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)The issue is not whether alien spacecraft exists. The issue is why are our commercial and military pilots reporting them. I know you really, really, want this to be about woo. It's not.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)So someone saw something in the sky they could not identify. Who cares? The next time I see a strange creature in the woods that I can not identify should I demand congressional hearings to determine it was not really an alien?
People see things they can't identify all the time, it does not mean those things can't be explained logically.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)The other 3%' I bet a good number are military classified craft. Both the US and the USSR used it as cover. But if you have just one that cannot be explained that should raise questions.
As to unexplained creatures in the woods...that has led to the discovery of new species, even today.
Asking questions is what humans do, but it seems not on this subject, even when we have astronauts with supposed sightings.
This refusal to ask is not just cultural...but almost needed. We pride on good space and air defenses, admitting this is not good.
Are they coming? Way too many caveats, but if they are...I am sure the US would see an end of days panic.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Commercial and military pilots report UFO's while on duty, responsible for all the passengers on their aircraft and all people the they are flying over and you ask, "who cares?" On one hand you claim anybody who believes is a nutcase not worthy serious consideration then immediately turn around and say persons responsible for hundreds of lives can have hallucinations in the cockpit and it's no big deal?
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Sorry, but to the best of my knowledge there have been no cases of pilots ramming UFOs in the air, once that becomes a real issue then I might agree with you that Rachel Maddow should have a serious discussion on it. As it stands however you just look ridiculous when you act alarmed at the threat posed to airline passengers by pilots who claim to have seen a UFO.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)On one hand you claim that people who believe in UFO's are nutbags then when confronted the fact that persons in positions of responsibility claim to see UFO during the performance of their professional duties it's no big deal. You can't have it both ways.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)I am sure there probably are some pilots who are nut cases who may have seen something they couldn't identify and jumped to conclusions about what it was. I do not however believe that necessarily makes them dangerous pilots, just as I don't think people who hold ridiculous religious beliefs are necessarily dangerous pilots.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)I believe pilots should be able to identify objects in their professional environment. It's not an issue of personal beliefs but of competence on the job. I don't care if a pilot wants to believe in bigfoot. I do care if a pilot sees bigfoot in the cockpit while on duty.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Back when they were first testing the stealth bomber people whould report UFO sightings, the stealth bomber project was classified at that time so the public was not informed as to what they were. Please explain to me how you think a pilot should have gone about identifying a stealth bomber before it became declassified.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)It's up to investigators to determine what the pilot may or may not have seen. My issue however is when pilots report objects that do not have wings, hover, are as big as a football field, accelerate beyond known speeds, or perform maneuvers beyond our understanding of physics. While unknown plane shaped vehicles are interesting it's these other reports that seem "out of this world" that need thorough investigation.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Maybe pay off some former members of Congress to pretend to take them seriously?
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Either the witnesses have credible testimony or they don't.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)If you have evidence they have no credibility please present it. You know, things like history of mental illness, drug abuse, history of lying, conviction as con artist. What are you basing this assumption on?
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)So what's deal then? We still have a serious problem here. All of these commercial and military pilots, sworn military and law enforcement officers are mentally ill, obsessive liars, legally blind? Or is this one of those, "nothing to see here, move along" type situations?
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)You have things reversed, first comes the hypothesis, from here, its to be tested, first by the one who proposed it, then by their peers. If the hypothesis fails in testability, repeatability, and/or predictibility, then it is a failed hypothesis. If its authors, or other people wish to believe in the hypothesis, regardless of the lack of evidence, then it becomes pseudoscience.
Not believing in unproven, unprovable, and debunked hypotheses isn't a sign of a closed mind, believing in them despite lack of evidence, or in the face of evidence against them is a sign of a closed mind.
pauliedangerously
(886 posts)...but asserting that these "unidentified flying/floating objects" are aliens from space, which is what the UFO Citizens Hearing is all about, is about as credible as denying anthropogenic climate change or evolutionary theory. Clever way to get a UFO discussion in GD.
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)Whether it's UFOs, ghosts, Bigfoot, astrology, werewolves, etc.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)Angels are more socially acceptable, so you may not want to mock those people if you want to stay popular.
However, a less socially acceptable belief of the same type is okay to mock, in your opinion.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)Anyone beyond the age of say....eight who still believes Santa, Dragons, Bigfoot, Angels, Aliens, Ghosts, Non-racist Republicans ever existed is open game to be mocked.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)Why are otherwise sane people so bewildered by horseshit?
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)just bedazzled by it..
can't..
stop..
lOOking!!!
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)She's not actually mocking the notion of UFOs, she's mocking the fact that someone is paying $600,000 to conduct a fake hearing for the cameras with paid former members of congress each being paid $20,000 each to play a part in the hoax.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)
Sid
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)If some entertainer is on the morning show, will watch to see them(like Robert Redford the other day). Otherwise don't watch MSNBC, CNN,Fox, PBS, CBS,NBC,ABC or any other news on any network.
I know my opinion. Don't need anyone to spin it for me. I am not a dreidel and I don't get spun. (a dreidel is a toy fellow Jewish people like myself play with during the holidays).
(also see musical reference Don McLean "Dreidle" .
as for the UFO issue-
never forget Tim Russert took out Kucinich in the last debate Kucinich was in.
Dennis was too polite. He should have told Russert to go .... ........ and talked about politics like he did in the 20 minutes of free airtime he got before voting for President Obama's health care plan.
never forget they took down Dan Rather who had true info and nothing ever proven false and it was 60 minutes people that stabbed him in the back worse than anyone else.
In fact, the only person I will listen to besides Al Sharpton is Carl Bernstein.
Neither of the two ever maliciously lie to me.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)
piratefish08
(3,133 posts)and do not contain life.
we don't even know what the hell is at the extreme bottom of our own planet's oceans.
to 'know' that UFO's do not exist is just plain ignorant.
Response to piratefish08 (Reply #127)
SidDithers This message was self-deleted by its author.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)what is plain ignorant is expecting anyone to give any credibility at all to anecdotes and appeals to authority. the onus is on the tin foil hat crowd to produce some evidence, not unsubstantiated claims.
these so-called sightings are no different than any other pareidolia. someone sees a flying object and can't identify it, so we must stretch science and reason to fit our ignorance.
that is ignorant.
i won't have any of it. there are excellent scientific reasons to dismiss the possibility of life ever reaching earth from another star. there is no evidence to compel a change in that position, so yeah.. insofar as epistemology is concerned, that's sufficient grounds to claim common knowledge.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Are you a friend of Michio Kaku who is open to the possibility, or for that matter Shostak?
You might call it appeal to authority, but these two do not fully discount it, even with current technology.
I invite you to read on it...this is literally a moving target.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)..which aside from anecdotal evidence is all the tin foil hat crowd has.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Which is the point the scientific community makes regularly...that is not tin foil.
You have a closed mind. If you were alive when Galileo drew the moons of Jupiter, you would have called that tin foil as well, or rather heresy.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)You did.
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)Yes, given the infinite size of the universe, and even the extreme size of our galaxy, I'm sure that life does exist elsewhere. Most likely some of it is intelligent, far more advanced than us.
However, that's a far cry from believing that aliens are visiting us. There simply is no concrete evidence of that.
get the red out
(13,462 posts)I won't touch the 'not of this world' arguments, but I wonder if a lot of strange stuff in the sky isn't black project tech that uses developments paid for by taxes that the taxpayers see no benefit from. That pisses me off and mocking the entire subject keeps investigation into that possibility impossible.
bike man
(620 posts)were many reports of UFO sightings.
Then one day, the 'U' in UFO was identified.
People make stuff up to explain what they don't understand. Various stories involving a multitude of different deities comes to mind - some say all these deity stories are mythology. Maybe the same can be said for a 'U' FO before it becomes an 'I' one
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,339 posts)She presents an entertaining mix of journalism and dismissive mocking.
I think former congresswoman Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick (D-MI, Detroit) is participating in the hearing. For a considerable bit of money plus expenses.
Response to ZX86 (Original post)
Turborama This message was self-deleted by its author.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)I will assume this is satire.
But I will give you are real answer:
There is no credible evidence of UFOs. Let me correct that. Every reported UFO has been shown to be something other than an alien spacecraft, something perfectly rational and logical such as airplanes, weather balloons, swarms of insects.
And notice, since everyone now has a phone with a camera that shoots video, there are far fewer reported UFOs. Why do you suppose that it? It's probably because there is so much footage out there that any claimed UFO sighting will be easily debunked.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)A point that UFOlogists often made is that auto accidents happen every day, but there were no films or pictures of them happening - or something along those lines.
I can't remember the movie - it might have been Close Encounters, or an earlier one - but the line, used to demonstrate that there are common phenomena which elude photographic documentation, really stands out.
Now, a meteor streaks across Russia and is captured on multiple dash cams, or one is seen on security cameras in the US - and car accidents on video are commonplace YouTube favorites.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)As to less...in the states maybe...there was one over the national parade in Mexico City a few years back, caught in both civilian and military cameras. It has not been explained.
Then again, Mexico no longer tries to deny it.
Berlum
(7,044 posts)Mockers can mock all they want. I am not trying to convince anyone else of anything. But I know what I saw. No amount of propaganda or derision will cause me to join in GroupThink.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)which generally works best when we apply it to ourselves as well.
Berlum
(7,044 posts)
GoneOffShore
(17,339 posts)NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)thanks
Victor_c3
(3,557 posts)He was assigned to project Blue Book and he never talked about any of the specifics. All he said about the subject was the next time we hear anyone say something about UFOs, you might want not want to be so quick to discount them.
Iggo
(47,552 posts)K&R.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Everyone has a right to their opinions on these topics.
Do I believe we are being visited by aliens. To be honest, I don't know. I believe there are things out there in the sky that we can't explain or that governments won't explain.
GoneOffShore
(17,339 posts)This thread is Lounge worthy. And as Iggo said - A hot mess.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)As a news consumer I expect news programs to dispense information, not mockery. You can tell by the thread count and the hearing itself that this is a topic many people find interesting. If the people participating in this Citizens Hearing are dupes or con artists shouldn't the public have the right know? If the subject is important enough broadcast isn't also important enough to take seriously?
Commercial and military pilots are reporting UFO activity. Whether you believe in little green men or not it's a subject that deserves sober investigation. Pilots hold responsible positions that affects the lives of all who ride with them and those they fly over. Should pilots who reports seeing a UFO be allowed to return to duty? Should they be summarily fired? Should they be held in a mental facility for 72 hours? Simply laughing off the subject is irresponsible.
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)Seems like a pretty sneaky way to slip a CT/woo thread into GD.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)can't stop lOOking.
i think i just saw a kardashian in the bar car. or was it a cardassian?
ZX86
(1,428 posts)I see Rachel take down CT virtually daily on her program. She will trace back one looney idea after another who's origins are usually a Breitbart or World Nut Daily website. But on this subject simply eye rolling and mockery is sufficient? Something tells me if the same caliber witnesses (commercial and military pilots, air traffic controllers, sworn military and law enforcement) claimed to see BP dumping oil in the Gulf of Mexico she wouldn't be so dismissive of the subject matter.
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)is, in itself, a full-blown CT. We (liberals, progressives, etc) just look silly when we espouse CT crap.
You can tell yourself and the rest of us that your post is only about "responsible journalism", but if you really cared about "responsible journalism", you'd have used one of the many thousands of REAL instances of irresponsible journalism to bolster your case. Instead, you cited some made up controversy surrounding UFOs getting mocked on Maddow's show.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)Try arguing about something I actually said instead of making up things never claimed.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)on the physics of space travel..
http://www.physics.uc.edu/~sitko/Spring00/11-Travel/space_travel.html
Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)
If we are developing this technology... and they are so advanced...
Look what happened to Kucinich. He said he saw a UFO, and was labeled nuts. Rachel Maddow is playing it safe.
Ancient Aliens is on the History Channel today. They just showed this cloaking technology.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)..as to be both invisible *and* intangible. plus with their mind powers they can wipe any slip-ups.
i bet they're in the room with us ..
right ..
now!
Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)So I'm talking to an alien right now.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)like this uncanny urge to eat rodents whole..
Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)her... any day.
Not that we know if it's a woman.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)
Duer 157099
(17,742 posts)how religion is so easily accepted by our society, and yet another phenomenon, which actually may be the real source for most "religions" is dismissed as folly.
Do we have evidence that our planet is controlled by otherworldly beings? HELL YES. Just take a look at the Catholic Church, for one example.
Silly humans.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)Brava!
gollygee
(22,336 posts)aint_no_life_nowhere
(21,925 posts)Last edited Sun Apr 14, 2013, 03:47 AM - Edit history (3)
but sometimes she's an ass. No one's perfect.
Many, many legitimate scientists have not only not dismissed the possibility of ufos, whether as evidence of extraterrestrial visitation or something else but have called for further scientific investigation of the 5% or so of the phenomena that cannot be explained.
Peter Sturrock (Ph.D in astrophysics at Cambridge University, UK) an emeritus professor of applied physics at Stanford University has not dismissed the ufo phenomenon and in fact organized a study panel of eminent scientists at Stanford University just a few years ago on the subject. While he didn't conclude that ufos exist or are of extraterrestrial origin or representative of some other phenomenon, he stated that the subject merits further scientific investigation. I dare say that he's more qualified on this subject than Rachel Maddow.
B.A., Cambridge University, 1945
M.S., Cambridge University, 1948
Ph.D., Cambridge University, 1951
Radar Research Establishment, 1943-1946
St. John's College and Cavendish Laboratory, Cambridge, England, 1946-1949
National Bureau of Standards, 1949-1950
Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique Fellow, University of Paris, 1950-1951
Atomic Energy Research Establishment, Harwell, 1951-1953
Fellow, St. Johns College Cambridge, 1952-1955
Research Associate, Microwave Laboratory, Stanford Univeristy, 1955-61
Ford Fellow, European Organization for Nuclear Research, Geneva, Switzerland, 1958-1959
Professor of Space Science and Astrophysics, 1961-present
Director, Institute for Plasma Research, Stanford, 1964-1974, 1980-1983
Deputy Director, Center for Space Science and Astrophysics, 1983-1999
Fellow, American Association for the Advancement of Science
Fellow, American Physical Society
Fellow, Royal Astronomical Society
President, Society for Scientific Exploration, 1981-2001
Rayleigh Prize, Cambridge University, 1949
Gravity Foundation Prize, 1967
Hale Prize, American Astronomical Society, 1986
Arctowski Medal, National Academy of Sciences, 1990
Space Science Award, American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, 1993
immoderate
(20,885 posts)How are ex-congressmen considered experts? Neither are the people they are interviewing. It's a peep show.
The idea we have been visited by aliens is nonsense. That they may visit us in the future is possible, but it's also possible to win the Lottery a dozen times in a row!
How many civilizations with "faster than light technology" are within 1000 light years of us? Why have we not detected them with our instruments that can measure the granularity of the background radiation? And remember it's 900 more years before they can detect us.
There are many more reasons why it is extremely unlikely that we will ever encounter an extraterrestrial intelligence.
--imm
ZX86
(1,428 posts)It's pretty obvious that the people hired to chair the hearing are not UFO experts.
My understanding is that the UFO community wants the testimony of commercial and military pilots who have witnessed UFO's have a forum to relay their experiences. It's not a forum on FTL transportation.
immoderate
(20,885 posts)They want to testify! And I guess they should be satisfied. They believe their eyes.
Then there are those who can't differentiate science fiction from reality. Maybe the same as those who confuse mathematical theory with scientific theory.
FTL transportation is only implied if they invoke aliens, like space men. Then there's a whole list of inconsistencies that ensue. See, if they are or were here, they had to come from someplace. And passing through a worm hole, and knowing if and where you will come out is ah,... easier said than done.
Is it impossible? No. But given the magnitudes of space involved, and the bound duration of humanity, it will take more than incredible luck to entertain these visitors.
Are they out there? Sure. And there's probably one that looks like Sasquatch. But there so little time!
--imm
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Who actually do science, like high particle physics, who do not discount this out of hand...due to the small percentage of incidents that can't be explained.
immoderate
(20,885 posts)But it's not a high level of probability, is it? Run the numbers.
--imm
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)It used to be no way, no how, forget it
Now that we are finding planets, exo planets, by the bucketful, the cocksureness of the scientific community is no longer there. Mind you...odds are small, astronomically small...they used to be none. That used to be the educated opinion...I think a certain series of Mars canals made them gun shy.
And as I have written elsewhere in this thread about 3% of all incidents world wide can't be explained. I will grant some are classified craft. (Like stealth craft). Then there is that really small percentage that truly can't be explained. It used to be people laughed at the mere possibility... People like Sagan, Kaku, and others no longer just discount it. In fact, Sagan was among the first to go...what if? His novel Contact used current knowledge by the way.
What is hilarious these days is that while the scientific community is leaning towards the possibility, people outside of science are going no way, no how.
I find that quite fascinating actually.
For the record odds right now are at or under hitting the power ball.
immoderate
(20,885 posts)It's close.
--imm
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)The odds went down by orders of magnitude. Why once will be sufficient.
Two weeks ago, five times in a row.
(And yes, I admit to buying a lottery ticket now and again, but just one..supper lotto, far better odds, you need 100,000 to get one recent higher)
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)
frogmarch
(12,153 posts)posted this photo of a plasma event 
(See the sprites? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprite_) on UFO investigative journalist Leslie Kean’s Facebook page, she blocked me from posting there again. She claims to be looking for the truth regarding UFOs, but I don’t believe it.
One neat thing that resulted from my posting on her page is that a Pleiadean wanted to friend me.
Rachel wasn’t ridiculing the concept of ETs. She was ridiculing the bogus conference.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts) apocalypsehow
(12,751 posts)And there has never been so much as a solitary speck of credible evidence pointing to the proof of any kind of sentient extra-terrestrial life, either.
Good for Rachel.
Archae
(46,327 posts)They'll take one look at our "entertainment" called "reality TV," (like Honey Boo Boo on "The Learning Channel," and leave.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)next
Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)
Sid
Iggo
(47,552 posts) ZX86
(1,428 posts)the world's oldest hall monitor.
valerief
(53,235 posts)
NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)It's a disgrace.
fried eggs
(910 posts)A lot of my childhood is just a blur. I don't recall a lot of things that my siblings do. The psychic said that it was because UFOs were abducting me and erasing my memory. I dismissed her comments, of course. Now that I'm a parent, the memory loss is occuring again which made me reevaluate what she said. What if she was right and the UFOs are abducting me and my child now?
olddots
(10,237 posts) 
Knightraven
(268 posts)They have of a long time. They have also went the other way at times as well. It all depends on what way public opinion is going if they mock or do something more of a serious nature.
Right now we are in a mass mock everything wave. But it will change, always does.
IDemo
(16,926 posts)The idea that aliens are piling into the intergalactic equivalent of the family SUV and traversing vast distances in space to engage in keep-away games with jet aircraft strains credulity. Are highly advanced civilizations still not beyond a little teasing for fun? That, and the Christmas tree lighting and aerial acrobatics seems to imply that all they really seek is to dazzle and frustrate other beings for the entertainment value.
See "Santa Claus Hypothesis" in Carl Sagan's book "The Cosmic Connection" for his view on UFO's. The existence of extraterrestrial intelligence is extremely high, but the likelihood of them feeling motivated to visit us is equally low.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Commercial and military pilots reporting UFO's is the issue. That's the starting point. You're jumping to wild speculation of the motivations of space aliens. I just want responsible news coverage of why commercial and military pilots are reporting UFO's.
IDemo
(16,926 posts)Again, any craft containing aliens is a wildly improbable scenario. Just the fact of them doing so would place them at least roughly only a bit beyond our present stage of development when looking at the millions of years it took us to get here. It is very likely that most alien civilizations are not just a bit, but vastly beyond our technological state and not inclined to engage in such pedestrian exercises. "They" have unimaginably more advanced means of exploring the universe than to rely on the glorified motor homes of UFO lore. That's presuming we are fascinating enough to bother with, which I strongly doubt.
What motivation might such aliens have?
1 Find out if we pose a threat to the InterGalactic Neighborhood - laughable.
2 See if they can learn anything from our technology - see no. 1.
3 Explore the possibility of interbreeding with humans - unlikely unless you're from rural Alabama.
4 See if humans make good eatin'.
5 Steal our resources - "They" would have long since figured out how to obtain or create raw materials as needed.
I'm not arguing that "They" don't exist, just that the odds they feel the least interested in our somewhat ordinary star and us is vanishingly tiny.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Among the hucksters on it where the likes of Michio Kaku, you might want to find this highly speculative piece of well, science on the edge.
It has possibilities as to why you might see contact
It includes what we believe might be the propulsion used...and the why.
Now if you believe this is a fools errand...then don't bother.
Personally I found it very well done.
And Kaku said something which s very true, crumbs off the technological table will destabilize our civilization and change the species forever.
IDemo
(16,926 posts)While utterly disregarding such things as population growth, energy depletion and climate change. I rate him as only slightly more credible than Raymond Kurzweil when it comes to predictive capability.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)And we must stop SETI and all space exploration.
(And actually he had talked sbout climate change and population growth, but to each his own)
I just got one question, how the hell do we recall radio waves and the two Voyagers?
IDemo
(16,926 posts)Although I'm highly doubtful of the success of SETI for precisely the reason I mentioned - there is likely an extremely narrow slice of time during which any civilization would rely on broadcast technology that would be detected. We are already on a sharp downward turn here with most communication taking place via fiber, coax cable and satellite (see: http://www.bidstrup.com/seti.htm).
The only time I read Kaku discussing energy depletion and climate change was to dismiss them as challenges that humanity would overcome, without really getting into the details. I haven't read or viewed all of his works, admitted.
I'm not sure what you mean by "recall radio waves and the two Voyagers". Was that something you felt I'd suggested should or could happen?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)But to each it's own.
Have a good day
ZX86
(1,428 posts)If space faring aliens do exist we probably have no more clue what there motivations are than insects know the motivations of humans. It would be like expecting a caveman to understand why modern man has an interest in building an atom collider. Two completely different worlds.
phobos
(21 posts)Here is the deal with this "Citizen hearing on Disclosure". In 2001 this guy named Steven Greer has a "disclosure" press conference at the National Press Club. People went bonkers because he had all these so called witnesses who had military and government credentials saying UFOs were real. Greer has ridden his notoriety from this event to fame and big time $$$. Greer is a huckster and snake oil salesman.
So now, every few years people who are part of the UFO lecture / conference / book selling circuit have press conferences at the National Press Club. It gives the event unearned notoriety because for one, stupid people think that the National Press Club is a actual government agency (it isn't) or they think that the National Press Club sanctions the things said at National Press Club events (they don't). In fact anybody can hold event at the NPC. So, the UFO hucksters realize this and so they have events there to give themselves a veil of officialdom. They use this to sell books, DVDs, alien goo gahs, and tickets to UFO conferences.
Now this guy named Stephen Bassett who is behind the "Citizen Hearing on Disclosure"is another one. He used to have the X-Conferences in Gaitherburg MD. He is an actual lobbyist for the UFO issue (He's registered with the FEC, I checked). Since the Greer thing in 2001 a whole subculture within the UFO community sprouted up called "Exopolitics". People that adhere to Exopolitics believe in a priori truths that aliens have visited Earth and that the government has covered it up. They have created a fakey political activist organization around uncovering these truths and trying get the government to spill the beans about UFOs.
So these Expolitics people term their activism as "Disclosure" as in the US government disclosing what it knows about UFOs. It's really just gimmickry bull shit to sell books, DVDs, alien goo gahs, etc. The people testifying in the "hearing" are the exact same people who testified at Greers "Disclosure Project" event at the NPC in 2001. Every so often they have to reinvent themselves to sell more books. All the UFO "experts" all know each other from conferences and various other projects they create, they all have each others backs and try to sell each other to various, TV programs, publishers, conference promoters, etc.
These people are all hucksters and in the end it all come down to The Al-ighty -ollar.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)The UFO community is filled with them. There are also no shortage of hucksters willing to peddle cures for cancer. That doesn't equate to all those seeking cures to cancer as snake oil salesmen. I would refer you to the COMETA Report. Do you consider the following a bunch hucksters selling snake oil?
General Bruno Lemoine, Air Force (former auditor of IHEDN)
Admiral Marc Merlo, (former auditor of IHEDN)
Michel Algrin, Doctor in Political Sciences, attorney at law (former auditor of IHEDN)
General Pierre Bescond, engineer for armaments (former auditor of IHEDN)
Denis Blancher, Chief National Police superintendent at the Ministry of the Interior
Christian Marchal, chief engineer of the National Corps des Mines and Research Director at the
National Office of Aeronautical Research (ONERA)
General Alain Orszag, Ph.D. in physics, armaments engineer
Jean-Jacques Velasco, head of SEPRA at CNES
François Louange, President of Fleximage, specializing in photo analysis
General Joseph Domange, of the Air Force, general delegate of the Association of Auditors at IHEDN.
phobos
(21 posts)It's like the poster from the X-Files "I Want To Believe" I really do, but I'm not going to lie to myself just to fulfill some wishful thinking about the universe. Having proof of aliens would be awesome, or so I imagine, it would mean that everything up to that point in human history is simply wrong. It would mean that my existence on this flying mud world inhabited by barely sentient angry apes, was greater than what I had thought it had been. But like I said, with all the "sightings" there is not one shred of proof.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)that planets existed outside of our solar system. Does that mean every tin foiled hatted crank with a wild conspiracy theory has a point? Of course not. But with scores of commercial and military pilots reporting UFO activity it's a topic that bears serious investigation. Not mocking from the journalistic community.
Response to ZX86 (Reply #413)
Name removed Message auto-removed
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)The universe of ufo cranks is not limited to the US.
We have had several governments do releases.
I look at this issue in this way, while astronomically low, there is a chance of contact... Mind you winning the powerball has better odds.
We still have 3% of incidents not explained. More than a few are classified craft, I am willing to bet. But even if one is for real...
Bur on a serious matter, both the USSR and the US used the UFO phenomena to cover up classified craft, but they started during WW II, or earlier.
If there is any evidence, let not just the US government come out, but others. brazil. Mexico, and France have opened files, completely. We need this to happen world wide, and not to cranks, but actual scientists...I'd like SETI folks, and university researchers to go at it.
For the record, among the scientific community this used to be the kiss of professional death, not any more.
Oh and welcome to DU by the way
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)Aunt saw it. My dad found three patches of burnt grass where it landed.
But he also found a map from some US government agency that the pilots left behind. So it was clearly some sort of experimental aircraft.
Drale
(7,932 posts)Ghosts, Bigfoot. Stuff that doesn't hurt anyone else and generally have intelligent people who also believe but treat religion, something that hurts millions and keeps millions of others in ignorance with reverence and never, ever mock or degrade those people.
Rex
(65,616 posts)nt.
