Amina a Tunisian Woman Protested about Anti-Women policies and Anti-Women acts in Tunisia.

[stevenleser]

Simple right? And when she was accosted by her own family, thrown into the psych ward, and threats were made by various political factions in her country to have her stoned to death, the European Branch of Femen organized global protests on her behalf.

This is not a European group 'imposing their worldview' on Tunisia or other countries in Asia minor.

For those who do not know, Femen is a decentralized organization not unlike Anonymous. Any woman can protest under Femen's banner. Any woman can start her own local Femen. That is what Amina did. She started Femen Tunisia. Some Egyptian Women have started Femen Egypt.

This is not Colonialism/EuroCentrism or any other such wharrgarbl. Nor was it Colonialism or Eurocentrism to protest Apartheid in South Africa. Nor is it Colonialism or Eurocentrism to protest virulently anti-LGBT policies in Uganda and other countries and we can go on.

These criticisms of Femen are ridiculous.

I recorded an interview with one of Femen's leaders, Inna Shevchenko, on Tuesday. I will play the interview on my radio show this Sunday/Monday.

[stevenleser]

1. Crickets Kick

[Quantess]

2. crickets, because you failed to mention that boobs were involved.

You also fell short on gratuitous finger-wagging.

[riderinthestorm]

3. Sad, wry laugh. nt

[stevenleser]

4. LOL, true!

[LadyHawkAZ]

7. +1

[La Lioness Priyanka]

5. while i am completely against people justifying their islamophobia by using women and gays

a practice that some people call pinkwashing. I totally do not get the criticism of femen.

[stevenleser]

6. I really think it is hostility about the showing of boobs. I think all else is a smokescreen.

Somehow that makes some folks so angry they are willing to hurl manufactured outrage after manufactured outrage at Femen.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

8. i think part of it is also that no one wants to admit oppression in their own culture

even if its accurate

[stevenleser]

15. I don't think that is what is going on here on DU. I think most of us are aware of global issues of

ethnocentrism, patriarchy/misogyny, religiocentrism, anti-LGBT bigotry etc including in the US and Europe. I do think that some manifestations of these biases are worse than others.

I think applying the 'colonialism' label to global movements for equality and eradication of bias are complete bullshit.

[stevenleser]

20. I think I just got exactly how you meant that. And I agree.

[Gravitycollapse]

11. You are wilfully misrepresenting the arguments of those opposed to FEMEN.

[stevenleser]

12. There is nothing to represent. At best, you advocate a form of belief segregation. That's at best.

Ethical treatment, rights, equality can only be promoted for people in your own nation/culture/ethnicity. That's a close cousin of ethnocentrism as far as I am concerned.

And that is if we take you at your word, which I don't.

The only thing different between Femen, and many other feminists who argue for the same thing for women in Asia minor is they show their boobs. That is what upsets you.

[Gravitycollapse]

19. More willful misrepresentation. Directing away from our argument to boobs.

If you trivialize our argument, you never have to address it. I see you at work.

[stevenleser]

21. As I said, your stated argument itself is a form of ethnocentrism. If you are happy to stand on that

I'm happy with my characterization of it.

If we take you at your word, one can only advocate for equality and freedom from bigotry for people in our own country/ethnicity/religion/etc.

[cliffordu]

29. And what, exactly are those arguments?

Ten bucks sez you can't name one honest point.... except for those (Filthy, Whorish, Rape Culture Approved) boobies.

Ok. Make that two points.


Dare ya.

(Sorry, Juries - please let this slide...some things need to be confronted openly, even if that means in the most cynical, crude, boorish way possible...)

[Gravitycollapse]

50. FEMEN does not and cannot speak for Muslim women.

As an anti-Islam group, especially a western anti-Islam group, that is a tacit conclusion.

[stevenleser]

57. And that is an ethnocentrist argument. nt

[Gravitycollapse]

60. ...

[stevenleser]

71. Oh, I know what that word means. Do you? You keep saying only people of certain ethnic backgrounds

are allowed to make certain statements.

[Gravitycollapse]

76. Ethnicity is the spurious connection. What I'm really talking about are power relationships.

[stevenleser]

79. What you're really doing is making it up as you go along, to attack Femen. And hide the fact that

your mad about them showing their boobs.

[Gravitycollapse]

86. Nope. Power relationships are the actual issue at hand here.

Hence, my original statements about FEMEN being a neo-colonial group. The imposition of their white, western, non-Muslim agenda on Arab Muslims.

All of those characteristics only matter insofar that they relate to the historical master/subject power dichotomy.

[stevenleser]

91. So it's not about ethnicity, it's about power. Oh yeah and because they're white, and not muslim.

But it's not ethnocentrism. But its because they're white and not Muslim and European. Oh yeah, and they are pretty and showing their boobs.

But they are dripping with neocolonial power, Femen is, so what they are doing is Bad bad bad!

Once again:

[Gravitycollapse]

93. You should read up on the separatist/liberationist movements.

[cliffordu]

98. Can you point us dummies to an actual statement

wherein they actually claim they do??

[Gravitycollapse]

106. At the bar right now.

If you don't want to wait until I get home, just look through the FEMEN website.

[cliffordu]

112. Sorry to interrupt your drinking...

[Gravitycollapse]

113. No worries. The drinking interrupted this debate.

I just don't have the means right now to search the website and post evidence while on my phone.

[cliffordu]

115. Somehow I simultaneously understand your predicament and

want to snark it at the same time.....

So instead of that,

I'm going to get another glass of wine and retire to the Lounge to clown around.

[idwiyo]

119. The don't speak FOR, they speak in SUPPORT OF. Please show some evidence that FEMEN

Speaks FOR Muslim women.

[Gravitycollapse]

132. Just one example...

[idwiyo]

135. Please explain what in that picture suggest to you FEMEN speaks FOR Muslim women.

[Gravitycollapse]

136. *sigh* If it's not self apparent to you, you're either not ready to see...

Or you are knowingly denying reality.

[muriel_volestrangler]

138. Are you aware of the difference between 'Islamism' and 'Islam'?

You need to be, to take part in this discussion. 'Islam' is the religion; 'Islamism' is the ideological belief that the principles of Islam should govern all laws and customs, which means the suppression of women. The Christian equivalent would be 'Dominionism'.

[idwiyo]

141. Thank you. I am really curious what is it they see in that picture that makes them believe

FEMEN speaks FOR Muslim women.

[idwiyo]

140. What is self apparent to me, is definitely not self apparent to you. What in that picture

States to you that FEMEN speaks FOR Muslim women instead of IN SUPPORT OF.

I see a woman, or to be exact physically abused woman, covered in black head to toe and a message that states stop Islamism. It translates to me as "stop abuse of women perpetuated by people who hold a set of religious beliefs." In this case it would be Islam.

What is it that you see?

[Coyotl]

124. I didn't know anyone was opposed to FEMEN. Who would that be?

[JI7]

42. Women have been going to Tunisia and showing off their Boobs for years and were never stoned

to death

[BainsBane]

13. Some on FEMEN's statements are hostile to Islam

Last edited Fri Apr 12, 2013, 01:29 AM - Edit history (1)

Statements written across their bodies that say "fuck the Qur'an," marching through Muslim neighborhoods in Paris with anti-Islamic messages. Such statements are as hostile to Muslim women as men. Without basic respect for a people, people do more harm than good, which is probably why so many Muslim women have spoken out against FEMEN.

If Amina feels good about her protest, that's fantastic, but there are thousands of Tunisian women protesting in other ways. Many don't see veiling as a form of oppression, particularly since it isn't required in Tunisia.

[Gravitycollapse]

23. It's more than some. FEMEN is an expressly anti-Islam group.

Which, like I've said already, is not itself bad. I am not a fan of religion. I do not however assume it is my place to "fight" for Muslim women, even if I do not like the religion they practice.

[BainsBane]

30. That's my understanding as well

But I don't have extensive knowledge of the group.
Many don't see that Islamophobia as problematic since they hold many of the same stereotypes.

[Gravitycollapse]

32. I've been looking through the FEMEN website.

On page 36. You should take a look.

http://femen.org/

[BainsBane]

37. My Ukrainian is rusty

[Gravitycollapse]

38. Oh sorry. At the top right of the page you can switch to English.

Here's the English link

http://femen.org/en

[BainsBane]

46. Much better

Thanks

[stevenleser]

31. Not completely correct. Femen is anti-religion. And they are anti-religion because they believe that

religion enables patriarchy and misogyny.

[cliffordu]

116. So apparently that woman's battered face is alright with you.

I would think that a feminist of any stripe would defend that woman to the death.


Too bad I'm busy enjoying the bennies of the Rape Culture, so what the fuck would I know.

[DeSwiss]

62. Hostility toward religion is a HUMAN RIGHT.

- Religions have no rights. None.

[BainsBane]

63. Despising 90% of the world's population

Is something not worth any of my time discussing.

[DeSwiss]

75. You're putting words into my mouth.

But since you have no valid argument against the point that I made about an institution and conflated and twisted that into an actual human being, then I suppose you have no other choice but cast aspersions and make shit up as you go.

And I certainly agree with you about not wasting time.

Consider it taken care of.

[BainsBane]

84. Deal!

[cliffordu]

103. Which 90% would that be???

Fuck me. It gets better every day.

[idwiyo]

120. Where did you get "despising" from? Projecting your own thoughts maybe?

A least show some evidence that FEMEN despises religious people. Otherwise, it would be intellectually honest to say "I believe that FEMEN despises religious women/people though I don't have a proof".

[BainsBane]

123. I was speaking of the poster's absurd comment

That religions, and hence the religious, have no rights. The one-dimensional conception of religion that is in vogue on this site is tedious and operates on the lowest level of intellectual discourse. I don't care what or if people believe in terms of religion, but I am not interested in wasting any more time on simplistic arguments.

As for FEMEN, they are clearly Islamphobic, and that prejudice is shared by many around here.

[idwiyo]

126. I do not think the are Islamophobic. They definitely support full separation of chirch and state,

For any religious denomination. They are also clearly against any religious influence on non-religious matters. Be it how women suppose to dress, or what they allowed or not allowed to do for example.
I presume you are aware that they also protest against Russian Orthodox Chirch and RCC? Not sure how that translates into Islamophobia. Care to explain?

[leftynyc]

137. Maybe, just maybe

we're waiting for someone to show us a country that is Islamic that is not a fucking disaster for women and their rights. If this group were said to be bashing Christianity, nobody here would give a shit.

[muriel_volestrangler]

139. 'Religions have no rights' is like 'corporations have no rights'

Your 'hence' is a failure of logic, and that has made your argument absurd. Saying 'religions have no rights' does not imply 'the religious have no rights'. The religious have the same rights as the non-religious.

[idwiyo]

142. Or are they Islamist-phobic? Or do they reject specific notions of mainstream Islam?

Are people Christian-phobic because they protest against homophobic and sexist policies of RCC and Evangelicals, for example?

[BainsBane]

153. When they write

"Fuck the Qur'an" across their bodies, that communicates Islamophobia and a profound lack of respect for the women they claim to want to liberate.

[idwiyo]

157. Why should anyone respect racist, sexist and homophobic book? Do tell.

[BainsBane]

160. as I said

it fits perfectly with the culturally imperialistic Islamophobia of many in the West. Congratulations in thinking superior your own culture that drops bombs and slaughters the benighted people who revere a sexist and homophobic book. Isn't it great the the UK and the US are wiping them off the map.

I wonder what you imagine there is to respect about people like us who finance the slaughter of innocent children and families day after day and then have the fucking nerve to look down our noses at the people we are killing? I can't imagine why you think you deserve respect when you view the rest of the world with such contempt.

[idwiyo]

162. I don't equate a book with people, obviously you do. The book IS racist, sexist and homophobic.

My question was: Why should I respect a racist, sexist and homophobic book. Care to answer?

[Trajan]

182. perfect example of a mischaracterization ...

Despising a religion is not the same as despising human beings ....

Religion = theology
Human Being = biological material ...

Typical strawman from these here parts ...

[BainsBane]

183. so the people would be worthy of respect

if only they abandoned the religion that defines their identity and thought like Westerners more concerned with accumulating wealth and dropping bombs than religious devotion?

[Phillip McCleod]

195. minus everything after the 1st 'and'..

..it would help. would be good advice for many westerners as well..

..*minus* everything after the 1st 'and' of course, which was added later by the poster in the process of putting words in their correspondent's mouth.

[BainsBane]

196. could I get a translation on that?

Thanks.

[Phillip McCleod]

200. nah. \n

[cliffordu]

100. "Many don't see veiling as a form of oppression, particularly since it isn't required in Tunisia."

That's some fucking Feminist argument.

Have you no shame?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

143. oh i agree with you on most of these things.

[bettyellen]

77. I was kind of on the fence about them...

just kind of wondering if they were using the best approach after seeing odd reports of events they staged in Russia. And the bull in a china shop approach in muslim areas of Paris. And the vehement anti-muslim statements I had seen attributed to them, that would probably be not helpful to someone like Amina.

I poked around a little to see what they had been up to before WTO and Pussy Riot, and honestly- they seem all over the map. Committed to no cause for longer than five minutes. Public toilets, better heat in their apartments, less prostitution (but not none)- just kind of random sound bites. It's seems they are more like a self promoting arty think piece (not necessarily bad, btw) than anything that resembles actually working for a cause. If only because so much of their message is self contradictory.

I don't think they are evil, LOL but I do think in some situations they may be doing more harm than good. I'm not sure what the fallout is for LT committed feminists working their communities after they come in and do their thing. From what I read Amina disavows any anti- Muslim sentiment (the flag burning in particular) and also feels the need to leave her country now. Is that good? Will Femen give her the job in Paris and that's the best outcome? I don't pretend to know. I worry about those left behind, after the stunt is over.

I also don't think they have been an international movement at all, but they certainly aspire to it. Lastly, I think they are popular in a way because they are not demanding anything really that anyone can act on, so people can feel all radical but not hurt their heads by putting anything into context or see the shades of gray, or god forbid- push for real solutions. So, yeah- on the fence.

[Luminous Animal]

92. I love this post.

I do appreciate political theater...

I've been a member of ACT UP, Lesbian Avengers, and the Women's Action Coalition. Every organization that I have been involved in would first consult with more conventional advocacy groups before initiating direct action.

For instance, when the Women's Action Coalition wanted to save the San Francisco Rape Treatment Center (which by the way, serves both men and women), we first went to the nurse's union (who was working tirelessly to save it) and asked them what we could do to augment their efforts but explained to them what our "action" would be if the city's supervisors seemed more willing than not to put the center's funds on the chopping block.

Their needs were; education of the issue (how the center became a model for similar centers around the county and how treatment wasn't merely forensic - a person could have been raped decades prior and still avail themselves of their services); letter writing (300 women sat an wrote letters to our supervisors and also enlisted 2 friends outside our weekly meeting to do the same); showing up for budget hearings and signing up to speak about the importance of saving the center using the education model; scheduling meetings with the supervisors that would be most apt to vote for cutting the funds to the center.

This was a months long process and it looked like we had the majority on our side but there were a couple of supervisors that seemed to be talking out of the sides of their mouth and their votes were crucial.

So we took action and the two supervisors who we believed were on the fence admitted to us that our action influenced them to vote FOR funding.

[bettyellen]

167. That's is how it's done! **APPLAUSE** I think it takes more than 15 minutes of fame, you know...

and their attitude toward other women - both in the muslim community and feminists in Russia- has been completely ignorant on top of disrespectful. I hate to be dismissive because I know people are often that way with pretty young women and it sucks.
But they do not seem to have the chops- aren't demanding or promoting anything REMOTELY realistic.
I think they really must appeal to a lot of people who like to hear easy simple minded slogans and never get off their asses and do anything except raise their fist in solidarity.

[BainsBane]

221. Advocacy designed to bring about real change is hard work

Publicity stunts are easy. Your post illustrates the difference very well.

[JI7]

110. i thought the protest for Japan was the strangest one

after the earthquake and tsunami .

[bettyellen]

166. oh, I missed that. I am trying not to be dismissive or snarky about what they are doing, but....

the interviews I have seen are kind of embarrassing, and their history of no sustained advocacy is impossible to find impressive.
I originally thought it was harsh when people called their actions "stunts", but now I think it's an apt description.
It appears now the leaders have hightailed it out of Russia to France and Germany and improved ONLY their own lives without accomplishing anything beyond gaining notoriety. Apparently Amina now feels the need to leave home instead of staying and fighting the good fight.

[redqueen]

147. Love this post.

I wish more people would think as deeply about this group. Others have questioned their finances, which is another angle that some seem to have avoided thinking too hard about.

[bettyellen]

169. thanks, I was disheartened to read they bailed on Russia instead of accomplishing anything.

I hadn't read anything about their fundraising except that they were painting their boobs and selling prints made by pressing them against poster paper. The leaders fetch double the price of newer protesters, LOL. So much for sisterhood.

[BainsBane]

178. That last statement strikes me as particularly insightful

"Lastly, I think they are popular in a way because they are not demanding anything really that anyone can act on, so people can feel all radical but not hurt their heads by putting anything into context or see the shades of gray, or god forbid- push for real solutions."

Makes sense to me.

[Gravitycollapse]

9. Amina has herself stated that she was not kidnapped nor thrown in a psych ward.

Get your story straight before posting.

[stevenleser]

16. And she said that while in the country where some political groups are threatening to stone her to

death.

Account for all the facts before posting.

[Gravitycollapse]

17. You didn't even mention her statements in your OP. You're an erasure.

[stevenleser]

18. I think that is a culturally and colonially biased statement against erasures. nt

[Luminous Animal]

35. Other Tunisian feminists have been threatened with death, too.

Did you mention them? Some left the country for a while but returned after the revolution to fight for women's rights despite the risks.

Threats from fucknut fundies towards Tunisian feminist women didn't originate with Amina's topless protest. Advancing women's rights may get you threats of beheadings, with or without clothing.

[stevenleser]

39. None of that is news to me. nt

[Luminous Animal]

45. Really. Did you mention them? You who told me that Muslim feminists are like Log Cabin Republicans..

or like a chicken at KFC.

Sure, Steve. You know ALL about Muslim feminists.

[stevenleser]

47. And just like Log Cabin Republicans, they exist in surprising numbers. And? nt

[JI7]

58. do Catholics support Child Molestation ? should they leave the church to prove they don't ?

[stevenleser]

64. Wrong question. The question to ask is, if Opus Dei promoted molesting children and the state

religion of several countries was the Opus Dei form of Catholicism and those countries were thus abusing children on a massive scale, and country X was discussing whether to adopt Opus Dei as its basis for a theocracy, would it be fair of people in other countries to protest against the chance that country X was going to start abusing children.

[JI7]

66. why do you not give the same consideration to Muslims rather than thinking they are all like the

Taliban ?

[stevenleser]

68. Are all Catholics "Opus Dei"? When you have figured out the answer to that, you will understand why

your characterization of my statement is wrong.

[JI7]

70. are all muslims like the fucking Taliban ?

[stevenleser]

73. Are all Catholics like Opus Dei? nt

[JI7]

74. no, and all Muslims are not like the Taliban

[stevenleser]

78. Now you are getting it. nt

[JI7]

80. i always got it , i know TUnisia unlike the idiot screaming about stoning to death there

[stevenleser]

83. If you got it, explain what I meant. nt

[Luminous Animal]

65. And you haven't a clue about the Tunisian feminist movement..

the threats and dangers they have faced. Or their goals and strategies.

Amina has been reported as being a Muslim and a feminist but, according to you, that is nigh impossible. She was insulted, for herself and on behalf of other Muslims, that a flag was burnt in front of a mosque. She was supportive of FEMEN's action overall but because she criticized that aspect of it, they released a statement demeaning her.

When I was in my 20s and living on Orange County, CA, I was riding the bus home from work and a white woman from South Africa was talking with the bus driver. It was during the boycott years (which, by the way, western protesters sustained with the SANCTION of the ANC) and they were discussing the boycott, the goals of the ANC, etc. I stayed out of it (surprisingly - because I was a hothead back then) until the woman said, "Oh, they don't know what they want. They're children!"

[stevenleser]

67. Let me know when you are ready to stop with the straw men.

When you actually address things I have said, I'll respond.

[Luminous Animal]

99. Why don't you admit up until like maybe yesterday you believed that there

was no such thing as a Muslim feminist. Or, if they identified as such (and recognized by their feminist Muslim sisters), they were to be taken as seriously as a chicken at KFC or a Log Cabin Republican.

Except Amina. A Muslim feminist. Who said what?

[stevenleser]

101. Why dont you admit you mischaracterized my statement. In fact you make two contradictory accusations

in this very post.

You say that #1 - I said there was no such thing as a Muslim feminist.

then you say #2 - I say Muslim feminists are to be taken as seriously as a chicken at KFC or a Log Cabin Republican.

These accusations are mutually exclusive. Pick one.

[Luminous Animal]

107. Prove that they are mutually exclusive.

[stevenleser]

108. I'm happy to let DUers read my previous statement and make up their own minds. nt

[JI7]

40. women have been protesting outside for years there and been threatened with stoning, death etc

[idwiyo]

121. And?

[HiPointDem]

131. "Some political groups" = a regional leader of one group who reportedly said she 'should' be stoned,

not that he was going to stone her, and then took it back on national tv.

[G_j]

10. Thanks, ill be interested in listening

I appreciate you pointing out the basic nature of this movement as being autonomous. Like other movements, people don't get it when there are no leaders.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/lesersense/2013/04/07/making-sense-with-steve-leser--n-korea-amina-femen-more

[BainsBane]

14. Amina's protest is completely valid

As are those of the thousands of Tunisian women who protest in other ways. The Muslim women who resent FEMEN have every right to express their views, whether you respect them, their way of dress, and religion or not.

[Luminous Animal]

24. Steve does not believe that there are Muslim feminists.

[BainsBane]

34. How is that possible?

Does he ignore their writings and protests? Or Is this another case of a man deciding what a feminist is? There seems to be a lot of that going around.

[Luminous Animal]

41. He says, since he has been to Muslim countries, they do not exist.

Or, if they do define themselves as feminists, they are like Log Cabin Republicans... i.e., self hating.

[JI7]

54. shit, the same can be said about Obama and all the other Democrats , Catholics make up

the largest number of Democrats in Congress. are all of those like Log Cabin republicans because of the VAtican . fuck, can we just say they support child molestation because of the issues of the CAtholic Church in that area ?

i'm an atheist and am very critical of religion, and especially of modern day Islam but i knew the difference between holding that view and viewing all the people of a religion a certain way.

[BainsBane]

55. They define themselves as feminists

There are scores of Muslim feminist organizations.
http://www.wisemuslimwomen.org/activism/

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/03/201332715585855781.html
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/shadya/muslimfeminism.html

[The Straight Story]

44. And if a woman says she is not offended by a dongle joke or door being held open

Is she just a victim of the patriarchy or can she actually decide that such things don't bother her?

And does she need educated about how oppressed she is?

[BainsBane]

49. Free associate much?

[The Straight Story]

56. So you can't answer that?

A woman says she is Muslim and to argue with her choices means someone is against her choices.

Another woman chooses not to be offended by a joke/etc and she is not making a choice.

Got it.

[BainsBane]

59. I don't care what people are offended by

I am tired of straw man arguments, however.
That whole controversy was about EEOC law, something too many here oppose.

[The Straight Story]

69. No, it was about what women should feel on an issue

If one said she was not offended, then she was wrong.

Women, and men, here on DU keep getting told their choices are bad because they do not conform to the choices others would make.

Some folks might like a 'culture' where they are free to exchange such jokes as they feel they are adult enough to handle such things without feeling oppressed.

Yet others strive to deny them that ability because others may not like it so let's change society for everyone to protect those who don't like it.

Some may not like what certain things in Islam represent and it might offend them. They see it as a symbol of oppression and want it changed. A joke. A head scarf. Etc.

[BainsBane]

81. If that's what you want to lecture people about

That's your problem. You obviously didn't read or understand anything I wrote on the subject. Nothing new there. I guess if one's goal is to reject women's rights a priori, ignoring what they actually say is a prerequisite.

In case you do decide you care what my concerns on that episode were, read this: http://www.rmlawyers.com/blog/2013/03/sendgrids-unlawful-and-retaliatory-termination-of-adria-richards.shtml

I won't hold my breath.

[Luminous Animal]

82. Eh eh. The door again. I hope you are in real life milking that canard for all it is worth...

to the amusement of your buddies because you aren't getting much traction here.

[The Straight Story]

88. Nice

You don't answer what I wrote and turn it around to be about me.

The door thing is a simple example.

If a woman decides she likes being part of a group/society that has benevolent sexism (such as doors, tires, etc) who are you to tell her she is wrong and oppressed and needs to be saved?

Did it ever occur to you that some women make such choices here just like others are saying women makes choices elsewhere to wear scarves/etc and follow rules of their society/religion because they want to and like to?

Why is it they are told here they are victims but elsewhere they are supported for their choices?

[BainsBane]

90. Quit making up bullshit

No one cares, and it's nothing but a time waster. Read what women actually write for a change. Is that really so difficult?

[The Straight Story]

96. How about you do the same

Women write plenty that some things don't offend them but then are told they should be offended.

From porn, to clothes, to ads, etc - women make a lot of choices that some feminists don't like and believe those women are so oppressed they need educated.

And that their choices are wrong because they have been brainwashed by the patriarchy. Except in this case because someone showed their breasts. So now that woman is wrong because she did not conform and women who stay in a patriarchal religion are right and don't need to see that they are being oppressed (which many of them are).

Make a choice to be part of such a religion/system. Ok, that's your choice. Make a choice that says you don't give a damn if a man opens a door, makes a dongle joke, etc - well - we need to talk sister so we can show you how truly oppressed you are.

Tell me - do you think women in the middle east are oppressed and taken advantage of? If so, would you like to expose that?

[BainsBane]

104. I'm bored with your straw man arguments

You've obviously never read anything I've written. Enjoy your conversation with yourself. You clearly have no interest in my views.

[Luminous Animal]

97. Benevolent sexism has nothing to do with any individual woman's preference.

It is a concept presented and studied that reveals that a woman, in the workplace that acquiesces to doors, lifting or carrying, doing simple tech... that is, giving way to a traditional man's "duties" may be putting herself at a disadvantage because she is inadvertently proving herself not up to personal responsibility and apt to be judged as less competent and thus not worthy of promotion or raise.

It is also a concept that reveals that a society or subculture that rates high on benevolent sexism is also high on malevolent sexism. That is, men in a society or subculture that deems women more fragile, more pure, more good and worthy of protection, will also more severely punish a woman for stepping out of that role. So, there is a dangerous component to benevolent sexism.

It's not merely a matter of door opening, despite the effort by some on DU to trivialize it as such. It is the infantilization of a thousand cuts

[idwiyo]

127. Seems to me like extremely convoluted concept. It makes an assumption that "benevolent"

sexism always results in malevolent sexism. There is no one without another. Males can not be just civil, they are sexist by the simple virtue of being a male.
I am always oppressed because I am a woman. If I insist I am not oppressed its because I am not educated enough. If I reject particular theory held dear by a particular group of feminists I am brainwashed by patriarchy, or something along those lines. I cannot possibly be my own free agent unless I CONFORM to the specific set of beliefs and rules on what to think and how to behave, held by a specific group of feminists. Public nudity would be one of such examples.

Yeah, whatever. IMNSHO, statements "Fuck your morals" and “My body belongs to me, and is not the source of anyone’s honour” also apply to situations where a particular branch of benevalent feminism tries to dictate to me how I should and shouldn't protest. YMMV, of course.

[bettyellen]

179. I think you are confusing "individualism" with feminism. Really common mistake.

[idwiyo]

181. Please explain how.

[bettyellen]

210. Individualism is about the personal choices you get to make. Feminism concerns itself with societal

issues, and how they evolved, and how to rectify them.

You are making the same mistake *many* men here do- personalizing everything to offend or suit your own concerns.
If everyone thought like that, none of us would ever be out there fighting to control our reproductive choices or end discrimination. It would be, quite literally every woman for themselves. There's nothing inherently feminist about that, but Ayn Rand would be proud.

[idwiyo]

223. You couldn't be further away from truth. Not that I am surprised.

My sig line should have given you a clue where I stand on Individualism vs Community, for starters.

As to feminism, my disagreement with some feminists mostly revolves around "how to rectify them" and victimhood mentality I flatly reject.

When it comes to men, I treat them the same way I want them to treat me - each one is an individual, each one has a capacity to treat others with respect, and dignity, and each one will be given a chance to prove me right. I refuse to see men as some kind of monolithic group wallowing in their "collective privilege" while waiting for a further chance to "oppress" me.

YMMV, of course.

[bettyellen]

228. when you prattle on about your individual relationships with men, it's individualism...

when Amina and Femen both decide bail on their communities after taking a quick stab at changing them, I'm kind of seeing the same thing. Every woman for herself.

Sure it's empowering, but has little to no impact improving society. I'll save my praise for those who stay and do the work.
I'm not sure where this victim thing comes from, but I'm not seeing much fortitude shown by this women you choose to idolize.

But I guess if you don't like when feminists try to rectify society's problems, then running away is the way to go I guess. Looks weak and more than a little selfish from where I sit.

[idwiyo]

231. Here we go again. Can you actually hold a conversation without dictating what someone else should

and shouldn't do?

when Amina and Femen both decide bail on their communities after taking a quick stab at changing them, I'm kind of seeing the same thing. Every woman for herself.

Maybe you should show them by example? Obviously you know better, what stops you from offering your expertise and doing something positive IRL, instead of typing away on Internet?

when you prattle on about your individual relationships with men, it's individualism...

It has nothing to do with individualism, it has everything to do with trying to be a productive member of community.

Sure it's empowering, but has little to no impact improving society. I'll save my praise for those who stay and do the work.

at the very least they are TRYING to o something, as opposed to posting messages on Internet.

I'm not sure where this victim thing comes from, but I'm not seeing much fortitude shown by this women you choose to idolize.

Victimhood mentality comes from you. Every single time you (generic) start moaning about them menz oppressing you with (insert DU outrage of the day here). Its always menz, patriachy, society, whatbloodyever. Always something holding you (generic) down.

But when a man tries to express their solidarity or support, they typically are torn to shreds within next few minutes because they didn't do it in a pre-approved way. Or something along those lines.

But I guess if you don't like when feminists try to rectify society's problems, then running away is the way to go I guess. Looks weak and more than a little selfish from where I sit.

Correction: feminists like you. Thanks deity you don't represent ALL feminists.

[bettyellen]

232. not sure why you would presume to know what anyone here does in their spare time

i guess you assume they'd come here to brag about doing things? Not me, sorry. Dead wrong about that, I have 25 years of activism under my belt, and it's NONE of your business, LOL. Unlike you, I don't come here to go on all about myself all the time.

This is a discussion board, I come here to discuss (not dictate, but thanks!) which involves typing. I guess you;re one of those people who thinks people discussing ideas is a waste of time. Which is fine, but look in the mirror, for fucks sake. You're whining on the internet about whining on the internet. It does't get any funnier than that.

[idwiyo]

233. 25 years of activism most definitely qualifies you to lead by personal example! FEMEN needs you to

show them the WAY! Come on, save them from themselves! They are not likely to change if you just keep posting here! They NEED you
to lead them IRL!

[bettyellen]

234. you might like to use DU to talk all about yourself and make up stories about others in an

attempt at getting gossipy or whatever that was supposed to be, but I do not.
But yeah, not surprised you ridicule the idea of getting off your ass and getting things done. Not a fan of feminism at all, it's pretty obvious you just are here to stir shit.

It's been really boring chatting with you, bye now!

[idwiyo]

235. Have a great day! :)

[stevenleser]

51. It's not correct. As with most of my detractors on the Femen issue, that person mischaracterizes nt

[Luminous Animal]

22. Amina flat out states she was not thrown into a psych ward. Address that.

[Gravitycollapse]

25. We can't trust her word. She's too oppressed.

[stevenleser]

27. According to your belief system, what you just said was colonialism. nt

[Gravitycollapse]

28. Man, that went miles over your head.

[stevenleser]

33. No, it didn't. I got your intended meaning. But applying what you claim is your belief system, you

have no right to even make any assertions about her being oppressed or not.

[Gravitycollapse]

36. Like a jetliner over the sea floor.

[stevenleser]

43. You just described an undersea craft with a magnetohydrodynamic drive. And here I thought I was

dealing with someone without knowledge of physics.

[Gravitycollapse]

53. Barking up the wrong tree with your wiki searching. My username is there for a reason.

[stevenleser]

61. I thought your username was just more Wharrgarbl like your attacks on Femen nt

[stevenleser]

26. I already have in multiple OPs. See my #16 above. nt

[JI7]

48. Femen is like that Quron Burning Guy in the United States , of course they have a right to protest

and do what they do.

[Coyotl]

125. Actually, not like that guy at all, just the opposite

That guy is a right-wing, nut case extremist.

[DeSwiss]

52. K&R! n/t

[Shankapotomus]

72. Epic debate going on here

I think it's safe to say that whether women are being manipulated and controlled by men in the name of Hedonism or in the name of Religion, both are wrong.

The only safe political structure a woman can truly claim the freedom of her own choice is one where she can choose between two extremes for her own body and not suffer the consequence of expulsion or worse.

[Deep13]

85. Agreed.

One of the things that deconstructing Orientalism and racism does is to make the previously condescending side realize that those who live in other parts of the world with different world views are just like them. Muslim women in the Middle East would be well within their rights to protest the commercial exploitation of women in America just as those who empathize with repressed women in North Africa are free to call attention to that.

[stevenleser]

87. Wow, very well put!

[Gravitycollapse]

89. Equality does not mean monolithism.

I think that's an important point that must be made here.

[BainsBane]

94. Of course they are within their rights to protest

Just like Muslim women have the right to tell them what they think about it.

[stevenleser]

95. And just like many Muslim women have the right to agree with them.

Although many don't dare say so.

[BainsBane]

102. Look at these Tunisian women

and tell me how they don't dare to speak their mind:




Have you figured out yet that veiling isn't required in Tunisia?

[stevenleser]

105. I wasn't specifically referring to Tunisia. I'm well aware Sharia isnt law in Tunisia YET.

And the YET is the point, as I have been saying.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-nisman/tensions-with-tunisias-ji_b_2998955.html

[BainsBane]

109. If you aren't talking specifically about Tunisia

Why link to an article on Tunisia. What do you think the women in the pictures I posted are protesting? There were dozens of protests against changes in the law before FEMEN even decided to pay attention to Tunisia? Just because you haven't paid attention doesn't mean it hasn't happened.Protest brought down dictatorship there. Remember the Arab Spring?

[stevenleser]

111. I'll say it again since Femen detractors seem to love to mischaracterize and misquote.

Many Muslim women agree with them, but are afraid to say it. That statement was not specific to Tunisia.

Then you posted a picture that said "These Tunisian women don't seem afraid".

That's great. Many Turkish women wouldnt be afraid either. I never said either would be.

I posted the article that describes that there is a risk that Tunisia is going down the road that will lead to Sharia being implemented there. That in fact, AST patrols some neighborhoods there already enforcing strict islamic laws. That issue is what caused Amina to protest like she did. And because it got the attention it did, AST and other Salafist groups are saying she should be stoned to death. So her life is in danger.

Isn't it simpler to actually address what I said than to make up things that I said?

[BainsBane]

118. How do you know what these Muslim women want?

How did you develop such mind reading abilities? And why do you feel compelled to dismiss the views of Muslim women who have expressed their views? And what countries have FEMEN protested about where women are afraid to speak their minds?

What is the fascination with protests that are confined to 3 to 4 word slogans? Do you share FEMEN's view that women "talk too much."

[idwiyo]

122. FEMEN actually said that women talk too much? Where?

Last edited Fri Apr 12, 2013, 04:49 AM - Edit history (1)

[BainsBane]

154. They marched into a woman's conference

topless of course, and announced women talk too much.

"Others say some of Femen escapades are meaningless, such as when Shevchenko clad in nothing but black panties, stockings, suspenders and a helmet disturbed a respected women's rights conference. The argument was that the experts talk too much and do too little."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/9369293

Here is an except from le monde diplomatique

"Shevchenko not only accepts this order of things, she approves of it: "Classic feminism is a sick old woman, it does not work anymore. It is stuck in the world of conferences and books." She is right: death to sick old women, they are not even pleasing to look at! And books? They are full of words that cause headaches.

In his excellent book on the use of bodies in politics, Claude Guillon said of Shevchenko's sick old woman: "Even the most charitable of readers would say that Shevchenko's statement expresses the presumption and the cruelty of youth. But we should also add: the greatness of its imbecility! The image of feminists as old ladies, cut off from the rest of the world - and if Inna read books she might have known this - is an abiding anti-feminist cliche. A pity to see it taken up by an activist who pretends to be renewing feminism." More recently, the group's members in France resigned themselves to publishing a book, of interviews. "In France, you have to publish something in order to be taken seriously," sighs one of the Femen in an interview in Liberation. Oh, the misery."

http://internationalboulevard.com/europe/115-france/194-the-fast-food-feminism-of-the-topless-femen

[idwiyo]

156. Quote: "The argument was that the experts talk too much and do too little." That's not what you said

You accused FEMEN of saying "women speak too much" to a casual observer that would imply that FEMEN does not respect WOMEN.
As in ALL women. Its a very dishonest statement on your part. Next time, please make sure if you quote someone you quote exactly what they said.

BTW, I agree with that statement. As evidenced here, some feminists seems to be spending a hell of a lot of time at their keyboards either fighting with other feminists or with everyone else, instead of doing something IRL. YMMV, of course.

[BainsBane]

158. google the event

before calling me dishonest.

I'm thrilled that you've found your activist true love that explains the world in five words or less. Reading and thinking is so difficult. It's so much easier to think "fuck dictatorship" and "fuck religion" is somehow radical.

They are talking about activists in France, not people like me. Is that really so difficult to figure out? I have had it with men telling me what feminism is. Instead of accusing me of dishonesty, pay attention to your own actions. I knew it was a mistake to take you off ignore.

[idwiyo]

161. YOU made a dishonest statement, YOU provided me with a proof of your dishonesty and its my fault?

And what does this have to do with anything:

I have had it with men telling me what feminism is.

You are of course welcome to put me back on ignore but do not expect that I would stop replying to your comments.

[BainsBane]

163. The statement is not dishonest

It has been widely reported, and you can easily google it. Interesting that you deny they said it, yet affirm your agreement with the idea.

It is also interesting that you assert feminists are worthless if they don't walk around topless with three word phrases on their chests. Your Hugh Hefner version of feminism truly is touching.

[polly7]

164. Wtf? Where did you come up with all that? nt.

[idwiyo]

168. This wouldn't be the first time this poster makes dishonest statements. Its kind of amusing really.

[polly7]

170. Yeah, I know.

But it gets old. Of course, she was using a sock to 'educate' me with using both her accounts on one thread a few days ago, so it's no wonder she won't get a link for her dishonest statement re FEMEN. Honesty isn't a priority, it seems.

[idwiyo]

173. ROFTLOL, THAT is absolutely hillarious. She definitely should get a point for "creativity".

Would you mind to send me a link by DU mail, please?

[zappaman]

176. +100! n/t

[BainsBane]

187. educate you?

No, I would never presume such a thing was possible. I don't recall talking to you at all. Were you the one saying women who didn't want to be raped should dress appropriately? That's the only conversation I recall with that sock, and I didn't think it was you. That would seem to conflict with your admiration of FEMEN here.

[BainsBane]

190. It's not a lie when I didn't recall

As I said, I didn't think it was you. So how was I educating you? Oh, pointing out you missed the point of the article. Yes, I can see why you would find that so objectionable. Alas for me, that conversation was not as memorable as the one i had with your pal, who said women not wanting to be raped should dress appropriately. You can read that yourself here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022606782#post216

I am sorry you went through a horrific experience of rape. I wish that experience on no one.

[polly7]

192. LOL!

I barely care enough to read one of you, let alone chase down your sock's bull*, too. Save the faux sympathy - I'm fine and don't want it, was just pointing out why your intentionally nasty accusation was so disgusting to me. I didn't miss the point of any article, as I told your sock, I'd just skimmed it and focused on the African women standing up to the multinationals as per the quote from the article I posted. And no worries ...... there really is nothing you can educate me on.

[idwiyo]

165. Accoding to the evidence YOU provided they did not say what you claim they did.

Also, I did ask you to please provide correct quotes instead of making up stuff.

I was very careful to make sure I said "some feminists", so it looks like you just made another dishonest statement.
Not sure where you get rest of the bullshit you imply I said from, but it was definitely not from my post.

And here is a copy of my post:

[

Response to BainsBane (Reply #154)

Fri Apr 12, 2013, 07:31 PM

Star Member idwiyo (1,701 posts)
156. Quote: "The argument was that the experts talk too much and do too little." That's not what you said

You accused FEMEN of saying "women speak too much" to a casual observer that would imply that FEMEN does not respect WOMEN.
As in ALL women. Its a very dishonest statement on your part. Next time, please make sure if you quote someone you quote exactly what they said.

BTW, I agree with that statement. As evidenced here, some feminists seems to be spending a hell of a lot of time at their keyboards either fighting with other feminists or with everyone else, instead of doing something IRL. YMMV, of course.

PS. bolding in quote is mine to highlight the relevant part.

[idwiyo]

174. Of course its dishonest. FEMEN said EXPERTS, you insist they said WOMEN.

You even sent me a proof of your dishonesty that confirms FEMEN said EXPERTS.

I stand by MY statement, that has nothing to do with your BS one. Here is a copy of my post:

Response to BainsBane (Reply #154)

Fri Apr 12, 2013, 07:31 PM

Star Member idwiyo (1,706 posts)
156. Quote: "The argument was that the experts talk too much and do too little." That's not what you said

View profile
You accused FEMEN of saying "women speak too much" to a casual observer that would imply that FEMEN does not respect WOMEN.
As in ALL women. Its a very dishonest statement on your part. Next time, please make sure if you quote someone you quote exactly what they said.

BTW, I agree with that statement. As evidenced here, some feminists seems to be spending a hell of a lot of time at their keyboards either fighting with other feminists or with everyone else, instead of doing something IRL. YMMV, of course.

[BainsBane]

193. okay, so your complaint

is that within the context of a discussion of a women's conference, I noted they said "women talk too much," which they did. But apparently the only women who talk too much are feminists, so my statement is false. Whereas you attribute a single set of beliefs and customs to 1/3 of the world's population because of the propaganda you've been fed about Islam to justify war? Really? And then you go on to agree that feminists talk too much, specifically the ones on this site, who aren't doing what you think our their proper role in life, to walk around with three word slogans painted on their bare breasts.

Does the irony of that sink it at any point? Your conception of what feminism is revolves around saying nothing, doing nothing but parading topless with three word slogans on our chests, and following through on nothing. In other words, make a big show and do nothing to disrupt patriarchy. Don't demand EEOC laws be enforced. Don't work for changes in prosecution of rape and domestic violence. Don't work to see women have better access to education. For you, the only legitimate feminism is one that appeals to the male gaze. Never mind that my middle-aged breasts would hardly satisfy the gaze of patriarchal media and audience voyeurs so enamored of FEMEN. By FEMEN's own words, I am too old to be a feminist. They might even think I dress like a man, as their leader has described older, evidently false, feminists. FEMEN explicitly defines older women as outside of their movement, as false and "talking too much."

FEMEN should be free to stage any protest they want, just as Tunisian, Turkish, Egyptian, Algerian, and American women are free to tell them what they think about it. But when you as a man claim to sit in judgment of what legitimate feminist activism is, that pisses me off.

Betty Ellen's comment here I think sums up best what this infatuation with FEMEN is about: " I think they are popular in a way because they are not demanding anything really that anyone can act on, so people can feel all radical but not hurt their heads by putting anything into context or see the shades of gray, or god forbid- push for real solutions."

Edit: Also so fair minded of you to denounce the clear untruths in the OP about Amina being thrown in a psych ward, but then that might interfere with your narrative of the evils of Islam, so don't bother criticizing that one. Keep it simple: boobies good, Islam bad. Hey, you've got your own ready made "feminist" ideology there. The hell with Simone de Beauvoir when everything can be said in four words.

[idwiyo]

197. Out of your entire post only 2 sentences are correct. Rest of it is dishonest bullshit. See below.

okay, so your complaint
is that within the context of a discussion of a women's conference, I noted they said "women talk too much," which they did. But apparently the only women who talk too much are feminists, so my statement is false.

First, I didnt make a "complaint", I made a statement.

Second, EXPERTS don't equal FEMENISTS and/or WOMEN.

In the context of that particular FEMEN's action we are talking about a SUBSET of EXPERTS who also happen to be experts in women rights & FEMALE (for the sake of the argument lets assume there were no males at that conference, though there must be at least one male women rights expert somewhere). Not ALL experts, not ALL feminists, definitely not ALL WOMEN. Just SOME women's rights female experts. And possibly at least one male, too.

So yes, your statement is false.

Whereas you attribute a single set of beliefs and customs to 1/3 of the world's population because of the propaganda you've been fed about Islam to justify war? Really?

Another dishonest statement based on false assertion that I justified a war in one of my posts.

And then you go on to agree that feminists talk too much, specifically the ones on this site, who aren't doing what you think our their proper role in life, to walk around with three word slogans painted on their bare breasts.

Another dishonest statement based on your own assumptions that have nothing to do with reality.

Does the irony of that sink it at any point? Your conception of what feminism is revolves around saying nothing, doing nothing but parading topless with three word slogans on our chests, and following through on nothing. In other words, make a big show and do nothing to disrupt patriarchy. Don't demand EEOC laws be enforced. Don't work for changes in prosecution of rape and domestic violence. Don't work to see women have better access to education. For you, the only legitimate feminism is one that appeals to the male gaze. Never mind that my middle-aged breasts would hardly satisfy the gaze of patriarchal media and audience voyeurs so enamored of FEMEN. By FEMEN's own words, I am too old to be a feminist. They might even think I dress like a man, as their leader as described older, evidently false, feminists. FEMEN explicitly defines older women as outside of their movement, as false and "talking too much."

Another dishonest statement based on your assumptions that have nothing to do with reality or what I or FEMEN actually said.

FEMEN should be free to stage any protest they want, just as Tunisian, Turkish, Egyptian, Algerian, and American women are free to tell them what they think about it.

First 2 correct statements you made so far. Just TWO sentences out of entire post.

But when you as a man claim to sit in judgment of what legitimate feminist activism is, that pissed me off.

I am a female. Next time, ASK instead of making assumptions.

Betty Ellen's comment here I think sums up best what this infatuation with FEMEN is about: " I think they are popular in a way because they are not demanding anything really that anyone can act on, so people can feel all radical but not hurt their heads by putting anything into context or see the shades of gray, or god forbid- push for real solutions."

That would be yours and Betty Ellen's opinion. You could have asked why I support them, instead of making assumptions and spending all this time trying to put them down, assuming you actually wanted to know.

[Deep13]

114. A lot of the FEMEN people are Muslim women.

And yes, free speech for all.

[BainsBane]

117. A lot?

Really? How many?

[Gravitycollapse]

130. From their own website, one person out of hundreds of photos.

It's interesting because FEMEN appears to be made up of about 5 women who travel internationally to pose defiantly in well photographed shots.

The entire thing looks staged. They seem to have an affinity for posing for magazine shoots like Marie Claire (it's on their website).

This all stinks of manufactured protest. Just look at the few women who seem to be everywhere. Petite white women. What the fuck do they know about living as an Arab Muslim woman?

[HiPointDem]

133. noticed that, have you? i did too. the same few people show up all over europe. i wonder where

they get the travel money, since they're apparently unemployed.

[polly7]

145. An interesting comment:

Moshan Th_Ph • a day ago ?
They are brave. A lot of feminists who go after Islamists get shit from other leftists for being 'racist'. I see it here in Europe all the time. The price paid is that a lot of young women, 2nd generation immigrants, are not allowed to move or think freely. They are seen as cattle to be married off to men they have never seen or have no real interest in getting to know either.

There are feminists - often Arab women themselves who have been through that hell - who have set up organizations who fight this. But they are still fightning an upwards hill by being condemned by the rest of the mainstream left for 'islamophobia'. I'd prefer to have the Islamists as enemies; at least they are open about their venom. It's the false equivalency, the cowardice and the anti-Western hypocrisy that I cannot stand from people who claim to be liberals but are anything but.


http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2013/04/femen-stages-a-topless-jihad/100487/

As to your picture, you maybe missed the ones of the Paris mosque protest?

[Zorra]

149. In fairness, Muslim women openly supporting Femen would probably be placing themselves in danger,

the severity of the danger being largely dependent on the country they reside in. Subsequently, it is impossible to determine how many Muslim women are Femen supporters.

...Arab League Wants Blasphemy Ban

At a meeting of the U.N. Security Council Wednesday, during the 67th general assembly, the head of the Arab League Nabil Elaraby called on the international community to criminalize blasphemy or acts that insult or cause offense to religions.

"While we fully reject such actions that are not justifiable in any way, we would like to ring the warning bell," Elaraby was quoted saying by the Associated Press. "We are warning that offending religions, faiths and symbols is indeed a matter that threatens in international peace and security now."

"If the international community has criminalized bodily harm, it must just as well criminalize psychological and spiritual harm," he said. "The League of Arab States calls for the development of an international legal framework which is binding ... in order to confront insulting religions and ensuring that religious faith and its symbols are respected."

Islam and Freedom of Speech

According to Islamic law, it is a criminal offense to speak ill of Islam, its Prophet, and its holy Scriptures (Qur'an and Hadith). Blasphemy is punishable by death.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Freedom_of_Speech
snip---
Practical Application in Islamic Countries
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Freedom_of_Speech#Practical_Application_in_Islamic_Countries

I am a democrat. I support autonomy, freedom, justice, and equality for everyone, everywhere. I am involved with the Democratic Party, Occupy, LGBT rights organizations, women's rights organizations, and race related rights organizations. I marched against, and have been, relentlessly critical of the war on, and occupation of, Iraq, and Afghanistan as well.

I am not an Islamaphobe. I am not a pinkwasher. Posting what is by all appearances to me factual information that support my views on justice and equality issues does not make me a pinkwashing Islamaphobe.

Please, do not attempt to slander me by calling me an Islamaphobe, or by implying or insinuating that I am an Islamaphobe.

[BainsBane]

150. Muslim women would be in danger

Like these Muslim women in Tunisia?



Or these women in Egypt?



Or these women in Turkey?



Because FEMEN is so radical? Give me a fucking break.

Don't attempt to slander you by calling you an Islamophobe, yet you have just slandered an entire people based on your absurd lack of education of the world, that apparently you feel some sort of pride about. You imagine there is a single monolithic Islam. No one needs to call you anything. Your words speak for themselves.

[polly7]

151. Or Iraq? Or Saudi Arabia?

However, according to Iraqi feminist Yanar Mohammed, since 2003 "Iraqi women have been brutally attacked, kidnapped and intimidated from participating in the Iraqi society…War and occupation have cost Iraqi women their legal standing and their everyday freedom of dress and movement".
– Various sectarian groups have thus taken it upon themselves to enforce the wearing of hijab in a violent way, taking away women’s choice.
– Many Iraqi women, due to their fear of being raped and harassed, are having to wear not only a veil but also complete black dress in order not to attract attention.
– In 2004, leaflets were distributed regarding conservative dress requirements for women; they were told they must wear hijab.

http://civics.sites.unc.edu/files/2012/05/WomeninIraqPPT.pdf

Iraqi Women Face Greater Danger, Fewer Rights
by ANNE GARRELS
January 29, 2008 4:00 PM
Listen to the Story

Most everyone in Iraq has suffered because of violence, but the lives of women have been, perhaps, affected the most.

Their right to go where and do what they wish has been dramatically restricted by the rise of Islamist parties and extremist groups.

Women's rights groups report that in the past six months, more than 100 women have been killed in the city of Basra for wearing make-up or what is deemed Western clothing. Those who dare to defend them have also been attacked and, in some cases, killed.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18518858

Of course, some Muslim women would be endangered. How do you speak for all Muslim women though anyway?

[Zorra]

172. Another totally dishonest personal attack post, ignoring the content of my post. Tsk tsk ~

Geez, you've only (apparently) been posting here for 7 months, and already have numerous hidden posts, 13 in the past 90 days alone; hope you don't mind if I don't take you seriously, and please, feel free to put me on ignore.

You seem to have a very interesting "pattern":

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/125519981

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/125519981#post17

I totally concur with what was said in this post from the threadlink posted above:

"But this action seriously undermines our mission here. It makes us look like shit.

I am trying to understand this now. Dammit."
---------
Please, please, please stop undermining our mission here with duplicitous posts as well as other questionable actions.

[BainsBane]

175. LOL

Well, if you can't defend your point of view, go for a gratuitous personal insult.
I specifically didn't attack you. As I said, your words speak for themselves.
Since you're banned from HOF, you have no mission to worry about.

[Zorra]

177. The truth is, I feel no need to defend my POV to you.

And even if I did, I doubt your ability to respond to it sincerely.

My words do speak for themselves, and I have nothing to hide.

Your words speak for themselves as well.

And that's really too bad.

Thank you for pointing out that I have been banned from HOF.

I was banned from there basically for calling out a member who was defending the most awful hate speech that I have ever seen on DU, and I have no regrets.

It was honest.

[idwiyo]

180. Aliaa Magda Elmahdy would defintely disagree with you. I am sure you know who I am talking about.

[Deep13]

218. All right, it's just the impression I have...

...and it is probably more accurate to say a lot of FEMEN people are former Muslims, like Ayaan Hirsi Ali is.

Seriously, would you voluntarily live under a system like the Saudis' have? West vs. East is an artificial, made-up category. If others are suffering from honor-related oppression, why shouldn't we protest it. Saying westerners should shut up and not get involved only plays into the patriarchal and imperialist power structure.

[BainsBane]

219. I looked through their entire site

and saw only a couple. Their protests are based primarily in Europe and they specifically oppose the notion that they should adapt their ideas to different cultural contexts.

No I wouldn't prefer to live in Saudi Arabia. I do believe women in Saudi Arabia have a right to set their own priorities, however. What especially bothers me is that people here on DU can't be bothered to distinguish between Saudi Arabia, Tunisia, or Turkey. You are educated and know better, so you have a responsibility not to contribute to such stereotypes. You've read post-colonialist theory, so put that to use on this board and don't contribute to the monolithic view of Islams and Muslims that is rampant here.

I attended a conference where a scholar gave a paper on honor killings. He pointed out quite persuasively that police and the media commonly label as honor killings cases that would otherwise be seen as domestic violence. A man kills his wife in Saudi Arabia or a Muslim neighborhood in London, it's an honor killing. Elsewhere it's a batterer who ultimately killed his wife. The Muslim woman is no more dead than the non-Muslim woman.

Tomorrow I'm going to attend a presentation on the affair of the scarf in Paris. That episode reveals that veiling is far more complex than FEMEN and most here understand.

"Islam and the French Republic: the Affair of the Muslim Headscarf (1989-2004)
Carine Bourget, French and Italian, The University of Arizona
In the second half of the twentieth century, France became home to a substantial Muslim minority. One of the most salient and long lasting effects of the phenomenon of immigration from North Africa to France will be to have moved Islam up to the rank of second religion of France.

The “affair of the scarf,” sparked in 1989 when Muslim girls were expelled from their public school for refusing to remove their scarves, started a national debate that culminated into the 2004 law that bans certain religious signs in public schools. This talk will give an overview of the development of the affair, and delineate the other issues that played into the debate, as both the French public school and the Muslim scarf became symbols for various crises affecting France. In addition, it examines how Arab writers living in France have presented the affair of the scarf in non-fiction writings. "

[Zorra]

230. It is very apparent that you simply wish to believe that we lowly DUers can't be bothered

to distinguish between Saudi Arabia, Tunisia, and Turkey. Actually, that has been made quite obvious by your assumptive, dishonest responses and twisted characterizations of the positions of DUers who place fact and evidence, that you apparently cannot, or will not, (for some odd reason) deal with, right in front of your face.

And believe it or not, some of us lowly hick DUers may be a bit more educated, and well traveled, than you are apparently able to perceive from your lofty heights.

Some of us who you apparently disdain were even born to different cultures, (are not even white! imagine that), have degrees from prestigious universities, and have even actually lived in non-Anglo countries for significant portions of our lives.

Of course, obviously, compared to you, so many of us lowly DUers are illiterate, uneducated, provincial moron hicks who lack the wherewithal to recognize that people from other countries and cultures may have different perspectives than we do.

I'm just really, really curious as to why would someone who is obviously so wise, educated, and cosmopolitan, would go to the trouble of creating a sock puppet expressly for the purpose of covertly alerting on the posts of DUers s/he disagrees with? A bit coarse and disingenuous, don't you think?

Let me digress into some unrefined DU colloquialisms, and ask ~ just what the fuck were you doing? Your relatively incoherent explanations of the incident were total bullshit and full of untruths and when pintobean called your bullshit out with fact, you used completely irrelevant personal attacks to dismiss him, just like you very often do when confronted with arguments from posters with valid arguments supported by sourced fact that challenge your beliefs.

This type of behavior, apparently creating a nefarious sockpuppet in order to increase you ability to alert, is incomprehensible when considered as anything but deliberately duplicitous and harmful to others.

Creating a sock puppet expressly for the purpose of covertly alerting on other DU members that you disagree with is just so very wrong. Apparently you used up all your available alerts on you alleged real screen name, so you decided to create a sock puppet in order to alert on even more DUers. Your explanation was lame and apparently full of untruths.

I declare, bless your lil ol' heart, how very nice of you. So gracious. Thanks so very much.

So maybe you have your story straight by now, want to try again? Would you like a shovel?

Which, naturally, would lead some of us to speculate if your real intention here is to try to get as many Duers who disagree with you posts hidden, and maybe, with any luck, even get them banned. Under the circumstances, the fact that you have 13 posts hidden in the past 90 days gives some of us even more reason for speculation as to your real intentions here.

Posting Privileges Revoked
Revoked on Reason Revoked by
Apr 4, 2013 Sockpuppet of BainsBane, which appears to have been created to get around limits on alerting imposed by the software.

Skinner
(Administrator)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=302058&sub=trans

BainsBane (7,615 posts)
3. OMG, Here's the story

View profile

Last edited Mon Apr 8, 2013, 06:29 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
I have a lengthy ignore list. I created a separate account some time ago to be able to read all the ATA posts because you can't read those signed out. Once I saw Skinner respond to a post in ATA saying people could have multiple accounts if they behaved themselves, (http://www.democraticunderground.com/1259892 ) I made a few posts with it an even sent a couple of alerts. I was not locked out of alerting from this account at the time. First night I did that Skinner noticed it was me and Tombstoned the account but was kind enough not to TS me entirely. For that I am grateful.

Now he thinks I created that account to circumvent alert restrictions, which wasn't the case. Regardless, it was an incredibly stupid thing to do, the sort of thing I did in the middle of night when I couldn't sleep.

So I will not do it again and just have to go on without reading ATA posts from people on my blocked list.

So some of the guys want to make a big deal of it. I ignore them. Whatever.

BainsBane (7,615 posts)
11. Yeah, at 3 in the morning
View profile
I somehow thought, it's okay because Skinner said you could use multiple accounts. After I communicated with him, I thought, what the fuck was I thinking? He rightly pointed out the use was not in good faith. It was an incredibly stupid thing to do. It wasn't the first time I've done something majorly stupid and it won't be the last, but it is the last time I'll use a sock. That is guaranteed. The thing had 19 posts and was active for one night. They'll talk about it for years, no doubt. So all the posts about a dogs life are about me. Hence my new sig line, which I have taken to appropriate and thereby remake the insult.

pintobean (8,695 posts)
17. It was active from March 11 to April 4
View profile

Last edited Mon Apr 8, 2013, 07:55 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
That's more than "one night".
The thing had 19 posts and was active for one night.

It looks like you accidentally posted from that account on March 22nd.

It looks like the rest are between April 2 and April 4.

About adogslife
Statistics and Information
Account status: Posting privileges revoked
Member since: Mon Mar 11, 2013, 09:46 AM
Number of posts: 19
Number of posts, last 90 days: 19
Favorite forum: General Discussion, 14 posts in the last 90 days (74% of total posts)
Favorite group: Gun Control Reform Activism, 1 posts in the last 90 days (5% of total posts)
Last post: Thu Apr 4, 2013, 04:14 AM

Here's the link to that profile.

If you click the transparency tab, you can see Skinner's PPR reason:

Sockpuppet of BainsBane, which appears to have been created to get around limits on alerting imposed by the software.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125519981#post11

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=776138

[Capt. Obvious]

236. LOL

[HiPointDem]

128. "thrown into the psych ward" = lie. "threats by various political factions in her country to have

her stoned to death" = lie.

when are you going to run your interview with the guy that works for Freedom House?

[Gravitycollapse]

129. I honestly can't believe this guy has a radio show.

[HiPointDem]

134. femen is being touted by a lot of middle east hawks; they cheered on the pnac coups too.

iraq, libya, syria....

they love freedom so.

[Zorra]

146. Interesting. Could you please post a link to the source of that information?

I'd really appreciate it; I've heard that expressed here before but can't seem to find any proof of it.

Thanks!

[HiPointDem]

215. I mean the hawks on this board. Many of the same people taking the hard line on Iran and

talking up the coups in Iraq, Libya, Syria.

[Zorra]

226. Really? Are any posting in this thread? nt

[BainsBane]

185. The more I read about them

the more they seem like the flash mob version of PNAC.

[BainsBane]

184. I don't find it suprising

all kinds of people have radio shows.

[MadrasT]

186. It's not a real radio show, it's blogtalkradio.

Literally anybody can set up an account there and broadcast their own "radio" show.

[Gravitycollapse]

189. Ah so it's like a podcast?

[BainsBane]

194. gotcha

makes sense.

[Zorra]

198. Here is my PM to Steven:

Hi, Steven ~

I feel awfully bad about the vicious insults that some DUers have directed toward you, and in particular regarding their mockery of your radio show. I would just like to take this opportunity to express my thanks and appreciation for the adamant and continual defense and promotion of women's and LGBT rights that are constant themes on your show, and hope you will keep up the great work you are doing for equality and justice.

Peace, Justice, Equality,

Sincerely,
Zorra

That's all.

[Gravitycollapse]

199. Cool story.

[Zorra]

201. It is a very cool story, and a very true story.

Steven discusses women's and LGBT rights on his show very frequently.

Scroll through the Feminist and LGBT forums and you will see his announcements regarding upcoming shows.

[Zorra]

202. Here's one I particularly enjoyed:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113723857

stevenleser (12,875 posts)

View profile
Partial transcript from the LGBT rights section of my show on Sunday
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/lesersense/2013/01/14/making-sense-with-steve-leser--week-in-review
.
.
.
TPM reported that in making the decision to withdraw, Rev. Louie Giglio commented that "the issue of homosexuality" is "one of the most difficult our nation will navigate, However, individuals’ rights of freedom, and the collective right to hold differing views on any subject is a critical balance we, as a people, must recover and preserve."

I just want to say something directly to Reverend Giglio, Reverend Giglio, a growing number of Christian denominations and Jewish synagogue organizations have embraced gay marriage and the LGBT community and have joyfully made them members of their congregations. I think you will discover, Reverend, that being against rights, equality, recognition and acceptance of your LGBT brothers and sisters is not about ecclesiastical issues, it’s about bigotry you have picked up over the course of your life. Whether you recognize it or not, that bigotry is a form of hate and once you throw off that hate, you will be a much better and happier person.
-----
Cool story, huh?


.

[Gravitycollapse]

204. Yeah, ground breaking stuff...

[Zorra]

205. Aww, you don't like what was said?

[Gravitycollapse]

206. He slam dunks the easy arguments. Yet cannot appreciate more complex...

less popular issues.

[Zorra]

207. Complex issues such as marriage, you mean? nt

[Gravitycollapse]

208. Complex issues like female agency.

[Zorra]

209. That's a really difficult concept for most men to feel and grasp, bro.

But I didn't detect that being any kind of relevant subject in what I posted.

[idwiyo]

224. Very cool! :)

[idwiyo]

203. +1 Totally agree with everything you said.

[Coyotl]

213. Right on.

It is so easy to be a critic, esp. on DU where people like to hide behind anonymity. I say, do your own radio show and then get back to us.

[redqueen]

144. Leaving such untruths unedited speaks volumes. nt

[Coyotl]

211. This info was in a previous thread on DU

Petitioning Tunisian Government : Amina must be safe
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022584293#post19

Sat Mar 30, 2013, 06:43 AM

Coyotl 19. Topless Tunisian Femen Protester Amina Tyler 'Is Home & Well', Says Lawyer Bouchra Bel Haj Hmida
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/03/26/topless-tunisian-femen-protester-amina-tyler-home-well-lawyer_n_2954864.html

A lawyer claiming to represent Tunisian topless protester Amina Tyler says she is safe and well and with her family.

Bouchra Bel Haj Hmida, who is also a well-known woman's rights activist, spoke amid conflicting reports on the Femen activist’s whereabouts. ....

On Tuesday Hmida told AFP: “I spoke to her yesterday, Amina told me she was doing well and would be going back to school soon.”

In an interview with Tunisia Live she said her client was not missing “and has never been in a psychiatric facility.”

Steve missed that post.

[Zorra]

225. "Steve missed that post".

Exactly, thanks.

[redqueen]

229. See posts 9 & 16 from Thursday.

This is pathetic that people are still pretending that his demagoguery is anything but flatly dishonest.

How hard is it to edit an OP?

[Coyotl]

227. Like, maybe, Steve is no longer reading this thread. It's just a forum

not a book going to print. No one is listening to the volumes it speaks except three people maybe.

[Zorra]

148. REALLY? Interesting. Why do so many sources indicate that these statements are, apparently, TRUE?

"19-year old female activist ‘Amina’, who posted topless photos on Facebook threatened with death"

Tunisian newspaper Kapitalis quoted the Wahabi Salafi preacher Almi Adel, who heads the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, saying: “The young lady should be punished according to sharia, with 80 to 100 lashes, but [because of] the severity of the act she has committed, she deserves be stoned to death.

“Her act could bring about an epidemic. It could be contagious and give ideas to other women. It is therefore necessary to isolate [the incident]. I wish her to be healed.”

If she committed the offence in Tunisia, Amina could be punished by up to two years in prison and a fine of 100 to 1,000 dinars [between £40 and £400], local media said.
http://www.ynaija.com/19-year-old-female-activist-amina-who-posts-topless-photos-on-facebook-threatened-with-death-photos/

Tunisian Woman Sent to a Psychiatric Hospital for Posting Topless Photos on Facebook
Amina, a 19-year-old who hoped to join the radical protest group Femen, is also threatened with death by stoning.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/03/tunisian-woman-sent-to-a-psychiatric-hospital-for-posting-topless-photos-on-facebook/274298/

A Tunisian woman who hoped to join the radical feminist group FEMEN has been sent to a psychiatric hospital after posting topless photos of herself on Tunisia's FEMEN website and receiving death threats. (note: threats, plural)
snip---
The head of the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice in Tunisia (enforcers of Sharia Law), preacher Almi Adel, expressed major disgust at Amina's actions.

"This young lady should be punished according to sharia, with 80 to 100 lashes, but [because of] the severity of the act she has committed, she deserves be stoned to death," he said. "Her act could bring about an epidemic. It could be contagious and give ideas to other women. It is therefore necessary to isolate [the incident]. I wish her to be healed."

According to Shevchenko, sending Amina to a psychiatric hospital is "a typical way of reacting to a woman's demand to be free — they say she's gone crazy or is being too emotional." Note: see "another hysterical woman"

http://www.policymic.com/articles/30887/amina-tyler-tunisian-woman-receiving-death-threats-for-trying-to-start-feminist-group

Topless Tunisian Femen Protester Amina 'Admitted To Psychiatric Ward By Her Family'
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/03/25/topless-tunisian-femen-protester-amina-psychiatric-ward--femen-_n_2949465.html

If you have information that contradicts the information in the sources that I have posted, would you please post it?

I really don't want to be spreading false information.

Thanks!

[HiPointDem]

152. because they all have the same source for that factoid: femen's Inna Shevchenko.

[Zorra]

155. Can you disprove it? nt

[Zorra]

159. That appears to be true regarding her being in a psychiatric hospital,

but not regarding her receiving death threats.

[Coyotl]

212. That is false according to her lawyer.

[Zorra]

214. Thanks, I assume you are referring to Amina going to the psych ward?

Did the lawyer also say the death threats were false as well?

[HiPointDem]

216. no. The internationally-known female Tunisian civil rights lawyer who represents amina didn't

say anything about the death threats.

She said amina hadn't been put in a mental hospital.

Here's an article about amina tyler's lawyer in an earlier case she handled. I'm sure she's just a shill for the new government, despite years of stories about her human rights activities.

TUNIS — Tunisia's Islamist-led government is "morally and politically" responsible for police attacks against women, the lawyer for a young women allegedly raped by two policeman and charged with indecency said on Thursday. "It has a political and moral responsibility," Bouchra Belhaj Hamida told AFP.

Police violence "is not organised, but the language of the (Ennahda) party on women has paved the way for it," she added. "Since October (when the Islamists were elected to power), there have been many cases of moral, sexual and financial harassment by the police. When they see a modern woman, a Tunisian woman, they reckon they have the right to hold them to account" for their behaviour, Hamida said. "Women victims (of harassment) are then condemned."

Hamida's client, who was allegedly raped on September 3, is accused along with her fiance of "indecency" by the policemen, the couple having been taken by surprise in an "immoral position," according to the ministry.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iFZas66ZTfXWK-Q_Qy5YhvHELh7w?docId=CNG.8102e0366ae9333ca191452bc9edf09b.5f1

[HiPointDem]

217. 'appears to be true'. can you cite someone besides femen on that? Bouchra Hamida is an inter-

nationally known feminist/human rights lawyer. I find her a more credible source than femen.

[Zorra]

220. What I was saying is that what you posted about her not being in the psych ward appears to be true.

Sorry, it really wasn't very clear.

Read it this way:

your post: "because they all have the same source for that factoid: femen's Inna Shevchenko."

my response: That appears to be true regarding her being in a psychiatric hospital
.
Meaning that, yes. it appears to be true that shevchenko was sole source of the information for all the articles

I do believe that the lawyer is credible.

[bettyellen]

171. I heard two different stories attributed to her about their "kidnapping" too

one that they were stripped naked in the forest and and left to walk to the next town, another that the security forces drove them.

[idwiyo]

222. According to Dear Leader himself something did happen. He is positively bursting with desire to say

more but is smart enough not too. Entire speech is a lesson (and perhaps a warning) to attendees on how to handle and not to handle such situations in the feature. The reason I say "warning" because there is always implied "it could be YOU next time if you try to do something I don't like" behind this kind of speech.

The video is in Belorussian: