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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMocking old folks who are worried about paying their bills?
Really not a good idea.
Maybe the Chained CPI will be in the final bill, maybe not. Maybe removing it will be the bone we'll get thrown to make the budget better-received by the public, since a whole lot of it just advances this RW trend of our economic system anyway.
At this point nothing would surprise me. Time will tell.
But in the meantime, there are millions of people who are worried at the thought that their increases in SS will fall even further behind the true cost-of-living increases each year. It is no exaggeration to say that there are millions of elderly people in this country now who struggle to pay their bills, to buy food and heat their homes and pay for their meds.
Given that wages for younger workers have not kept pace with the generations before them, this is bound to get even worse without significant changes. Instead of such changes, we are being...what... threatened with the Chained CPI?
And when people express concern, confusion, fear, or anger about this they are being mocked, or dismissed, or marginalized. Maybe everyone who thinks this debate is funny should have to spend a few months on a limited, fixed income with no nest egg, with limited mobility, in shitty public housing so they can see what it is like.
Or wait, better yet, maybe we could address the real problems of growing poverty, growing inequality, unemployment, and the gutting of public infrastructure rather than chipping away at what little we have left.
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gaspee
(3,231 posts)It's the smugness I find insufferable.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)"Americans have it better than most other countries."
"You don't know what REAL poverty is!"
What has happened to compassion?! Where is the caring and understanding?!?
myrna minx
(22,772 posts)who are helping aging parents as well as terrified how on earth we will ever ever make ends meet in in our old age. $5.00 is a lot of money to many people. There must be some rather wealthy people who post here who can shrug off these proposals and who find mocking of the fears of our most vulnerable a fun sport.
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)
99Forever
(14,524 posts)
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Make no mistake about it: The Third Way mask of pretending to care about the same issues as traditional Democrats has been dropped, and the vicious contempt of corporatists for the fears of seniors and the poor to this assault on our already tattered safety nets is on full display.
This is the attitude of utter contempt that claims to represent our party now. Don't think that people aren't paying attention.
boilerbabe
(2,214 posts)green for victory
(591 posts)[IMG]
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Cleita
(75,480 posts)I couldn't quite see the brand. Do you know?
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)I consider that to be a good thing. When they were pretending it was even more infuriating, because they didn 't do it very well. I prefer them with the mask off, to be honest. It allows people who didn't always get what was going on to finally see it clearly.
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)1. I saw another post (or perhaps a graphic shared elsewhere) which said we need to stop fighting against other age groups. It's yet one more way TPTB keep everyone distracted from the raping and pillaging, by keeping the citizens fighting amongst ourselves.
2. I noticed a mocking tone, similar to what you describe and as we've seen in a few posts here on DU where there is insensitivity toward the concerns of older people and this whole SS-chained CPI discussion, in Abbie Huntsman (?) on last week's Bill Maher show, with Bernie Sanders. She was really disrespectful and came across as a whiny brat, imho. It's not that the younger generation doesn't have a lot of worries and concerns -- they do! But the mocking tone is unnecessary and extraordinarily selfish.
3. I don't know what's really going on with the whole budget/SS/chained-CPI issue either and what Obama's intentions or hopes are with it, but what I do know is that the optics, for Obama, are HORRIBLE. Horrible, horrible, horrible.
smokey nj
(43,853 posts)Marr
(20,317 posts)No response at all, huh?
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)....and I usually turn off my PC if I think we have to go to the storm shelter. I hope you understand that my family is more important than responding to your post or any other's for that matter.
Additionally, I have a few posters on "Ignore". If you think the response was so good, why don't you copy and paste it for me so that I don't get accused of not responding.
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)....but I don't see any specific attacks on the elderly. Where are those specific posts expressing any dislike of the elderly?
Marr
(20,317 posts)Have a nice day.
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)....I place you on "Ignore".
Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)Have a nice day yourself. Next time, post links to SPECIFIC posts if you want to make your point. Throwing up multi-reply threads to try to prove something (and expecting your recipient to wade thru dozens of replies) is, itself, intellectually dishonest.
Marr
(20,317 posts)Are you kidding?
Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)Does Anyone Know When My SS Payment Will Be Cut?
Pissed at President Obama? Feel Like Skipping 2014?
Obama doesn't care much for a certain group on the left
Again, post SPECIFIC links to posts mocking the elderly. If you can't, you owe an apology.
Marr
(20,317 posts)Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)Thank you for the SPECIFIC example.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Some smart ass asks for something, thinking no one will do it. Then when that smart ass gets it handed to him, in spades, his only response is "nuh uh."
Lame and predictable.
Marr
(20,317 posts)I'm not going to waste my time with that kind of nonsense.
PETRUS
(3,678 posts)When I look at them, it seems clear to me that people are "being mocked, or dismissed, or marginalized" for expressing "concern, confusion, fear, or anger about" proposed cuts to the safety net. (OP's words in quotes) Does it look different from some other perspective, or is there some dissembling going on?
On edit: For all we know, the OP may not even be talking about DU.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)expressing concern about the proposed cuts to SS. There IS dissembling going on but most DUers know what is going on and have a number of years. They are just getting more bold now as they rush to try to defend the long held Third Way hope of getting their hands on SS.
'You shall know them by their works' or in this case, by their 'words'. We do, they are fooling no one and it's good to see them finally come out in the open so we have no doubt as to what work we have to do to rid the Dem Party of the Third Way.
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)You snarked a request and got more than you asked for. The decent protocol is to respond. How about just saying "thank you" and acknowledging that the poster you questioned was right?
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)and evacuated to the storm cellar, or was it the one right after than where you said you were having a VERY good day? The juxtaposition of those contradictory statements really stood out as I read this thread.
I can tell you this, for me, family in peril day is never VERY good just 'cause I got to snark at someone on the internet.
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)And I read 46. It is not a response to the post. It is a reason to not have responded.
How about a response?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Considering this forum is a Democratic forum though, it is a surprise to see it here.
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)...elderly as far as I can tell. Evidently, because I don't go along with the attacks coming from certain posters, I must hate the elderly and the poor. Incredible.
I'm 62 and just got my first SS retirement check. Thank goodness, because we've been through Hell over the past four years while I've been applying for, and have been rejected for job after job after job. My wife has been forced to work two jobs, we've sold off all of our assets to include my wife's wedding ring and our second car, and we've been forced to take food stamps over the same period of time.
At least you were polite in your response. Thanks.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)we were on FR perhaps. But we are not.
I posted an example of a thread. I believe Democrats do not generally find starving people amusing. But who knows, so much has changed over the past number years, I could be wrong.
I am sorry if someone accused you of hating the poor, I know that is not the case. But glad you were able to start collecting from SS and hope things will be better for you and for all of us in the future. 
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)....it seems some folks need to take a step back from saying things they would never say to anyone face-to-face.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)poor. Maybe because I spent a few years fighting with Right Wingers online, it just seems so familiar. They claimed we were 'humorless' also when they mocked the poor, much like that actually. When someone has a history of mocking democrats, women, gays etc. it is even less amusing.
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)....I'm sure that will earn me eternal damnation on DU.
So be it, I've got thick skin for an elderly poor person.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)You can't see everything on DU and you are lucky you missed it, frankly.
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)you wife had to work so hard. You ask for empathy from others because of that. But others in the same position you see as worthy of ridicule. Mel Brooks explains it all when speaking of what is tragedy and what is comedy:
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger, comedy is when you fall down and open sewer and die." Mel Brooks
Tragedy is when I go without a job and my wife has to work, comedy is when you have to eat garbage to help keep the taxes low on the rich, that's your version. If it happens to you, it's awful and true, if it happens to others, it is worthy of some funny puppy pictures and name calling.
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)....the elderly and/or the poor.
I'll be waiting.
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)
iemitsu
(3,888 posts)from suggesting that seniors are too well-off to belittling those who are concerned about the radioactive materials being introduced into our environment from Fukushima or the toxins from the BP Gulf spill.
It seems clear that DU is the target of a Psy-Ops program designed to belittle all legitimate progressive concerns and make it appear that those concerns are "out in left field".
We need to be aware of this element on this board and not allow it to lessen our own commitment to making positive changes in our society.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)cat food.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2655007
But it sure isn't a surprise, what might be expected in fact, from former freepers I suppose. I remember much the same exact garbage from the far right when I used to waste time trying to talk to them. They always thought they were so clever and funny.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)hanging around here and mocking Democrats and other people who are genuinely concerned about their future. :pffft:
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)
cordelia
(2,174 posts)
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)attempting to diminish the nastiness of his thread.
Too clever by half. Or so they think...
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)and the primary yankers always bested. Always entertaining...
Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Just another team player with no interest in anything except keeping score in The Big Game.
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)He's made a baseless accusation and I've called him on it. If you want to join the fun, feel free. Find ANY posts by me ridiculing the elderly and/or the poor.
As I stated very clearly to Bluenorthwest, I'll be waiting.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Now, if you want to look @ #3 You asked, "Please link any post by a DUer mocking the elderly for ANY reason". To which 99Forever replied, eight minutes later, answering that Quixotic challenge with 4 examples from which you, very un-Don-like, ran away.
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)....where is a link to ANY post where I did anything of the sort. Please post it here. If not, please apologize.
Additionally, there are some folks that I have on ignore....if I can't see the poster, I can't read their posts. Get it?
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)
RainDog
(28,784 posts)
ellie
(6,929 posts)alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)If you don't immediately fall in line with X group, they accuse you of mocking the poor and vulnerable. Perhaps a post here and there does it: I haven't seen credible examples. The charge strikes me as a way of inflating one's own side (and ego) while attempting to intimidate anyone who isn't immediately identifiable as "one's own." Indeed, there seems to be some weird revenge fantasy afoot, whereby people who may have even disagreed with any of the group in the past are themselves liable to be set upon at any moment. A weird time on this board.
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)Lots of very mean-spirited people saying lots of very mean things about lots of other people. It does not seem restricted to one group or the other. That said, I have seen plenty of people mocking the other DU factions - and this is the worst factionalism the board has ever seen - but not much of this mocking of the poor. I suppose I get that people making the claim immediately identify themselves as The Poor in order to pretend that the meanness coming their way is directed at The Poor (a more rhetorically effective victim strategy than seeing it as what it is, mockery directed at some online opponents for being online opponents). People aren't "mocking the poor," even in that thread: they're mocking the other online group that is, incidentally, also mercilessly mocking them, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth - the glories of our new and improved system of "civility" - a catastrophe. This particular type of dishonesty (pretending that mockery of online adversaries is mockery of poor and needy), I'll admit, bothered me more earlier, when it was first used, but it has become a tiresome commonplace, so one can only roll one's eyes at it and hope this place gets better. It can't get much worse.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)I liked you then, now not so much.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Miss the old Markus.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)I'm sure we'll be friends again one day. Not sure why you're angry with me, but I wish you well (and your son and daughter, if I have the right person).
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Sorry if I was pissy, got a ton of things going on here.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)A rhetorical game. A victim strategy for winning an online argument.
It's not. It is real life. Advocating for the poor, no matter how vociferously, is not some online game. Being poor and talking about it online is not a game. Around here, these days, in fact, I would say it is incredibly brave.
To quote a wise DUer elsewhere on this thread:
This is the attitude of utter contempt that claims to represent our party now. Don't think that people aren't paying attention.
This is so crystal clear.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)Both in your original accusations, and in your further claims here.
Your original accusations are pure nonsense. Nobody is "mocking seniors." Nobody is "mocking the poor." Nobody is "mocking the needy." Indeed, not a single one of the examples you and your cohort posted above, and that you now demand "response" for from some unlucky soul, demonstrates your point. No, in each case, the post supposedly mocking seniors, supposedly mocking the poor, supposedly mocking the needy or the hungry - in each case - the post is actually mocking a cohort of self-appointed advocates on DU. Whether it should be doing that is another matter.
Whether your claims here are some strategy, sub-conscious or not, I don't know and don't care. You'd like to represent posts mocking YOUR ONLINE GROUP or TEAM as posts mocking seniors, the poor, the needy, the hungry. Why your group is doing this is clear enough: you either actually want to paint yourselves as the noble oppressed fighting the heartless, drooling "mockers" - or, more embarrassing, you actually believe such shit. Either way, I'll leave you to your nonsense and your self-righteousness.
You tell us these posts mock the poor, or seniors, or the needy. No. They're mocking your online group, the self-appointed advocates. Very obviously in each case. They're not laughing at needy seniors. They're laughing at your group. Not because you're made up of or arguing on behalf of seniors, or the poor, or the needy, but because you're behaving in a ridiculous manner on this board. You conflate the two to appear more noble or because you foolishly believe your own rhetoric. It's a ridiculous claim either way.
tokenlib
(4,186 posts)Some of us have lost good paying jobs and been thrust into the service sector. Some of us have college degrees and are fighting for jobs at Walmart with younger people because there are no jobs. Some of us have gone through a second round of student loans that sucked away all that "wealth" we should have socked away for retirement..because our chosen careers fizzled due to outsourcing.
Republicans say we didn't make the right choices and it's out own fault. Bull shit!
A lot of us will need our Social Security because 401k's suck and we never had a defined pension except in our dreams. We are SCARED! We trusted in this President and scraped the bottoms of the piggy bank for him. We don't need to hear of three dimensional chess, and how he "only" proposed it--this is not the President we voted for. And if congressional dems support him on this--they are not the people we voted for.
The "protections" offered in return only protect the few--not the many who will be struggling. Thirty years of concessions to reaganomics and now corporatism are eroding whatever economic security we had. This is NOT necessary..
Self-appointed?? BULLSHIT! It is our OX that is going to be gored....and for too many of us, it will be all we have left.
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Last edited Thu Apr 11, 2013, 11:49 PM - Edit history (5)
You'd like to represent posts mocking YOUR ONLINE GROUP or TEAM as posts mocking seniors, the poor, the needy, the hungry....
You tell us these posts mock the poor, or seniors, or the needy. No. They're mocking your online group, the self-appointed advocates...They're not laughing at needy seniors. They're laughing at your group. Not because you're made up of or arguing on behalf of seniors, or the poor, or the needy, but because you're behaving in a ridiculous manner on this board. You conflate the two because you foolishly believe your own rhetoric. It's a ridiculous claim either way.
That was horrifying, in fact.
Perhaps it is natural, if your own primary mission is advocating for the interests of a political "team," to assume that anyone responding to you is also posting merely as part of an opposing "online group or team".....to assume that the fear and horror and anger that people express to you over these needless assaults is just "team rhetoric" like your own and could not possibly be genuine or related to their own or other actual human lives in any way.
The reflexive and facile certainty with which you announce this imaginary distinction between people talking to you at DU and "ACTUAL" Americans who would be affected by the Chained CPI says volumes about how you view these discussions and the level of seriousness you attribute to them.
DU was a discussion board for human beings on the internet before the corporate defense talking points arrived. We are people, and the vast majority of us are not paid to be here. We are out here living the policies that you so blithely assume are just rhetorical games for us. Our lives, our families' lives, are being assaulted by the one percent and their politicians who apparently also see us as just some abstract advocacy group to be defeated with clever rhetoric.
You just drove home for all of DU the problem Cal has been underscoring here, better than Cal or I or anyone else ever could. I don't think I've ever seen a post more revealing of why Americans are mad as hell at what is happening to our country and our government and our media. It is all a game of Monopoly to the one percent. The propaganda is a game. The rhetoric is a game. And the voices of Americans trying desperately to be heard by the ones wielding the ax are dismissed as just talking point scrimmages to be managed and gleefully defeated with rhetoric.
I have written several times this week that the Third Way mask has come off to reveal what corporate-style empathy and morality and compassion really look like. Your post here takes the cake.
tokenlib
(4,186 posts)Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)
quakerboy
(13,920 posts)far wiser words than I had to express it.
Im on no team. I don't have any du group. I don't even do much posting here anymore. But damn my blood pressure goes up when I see the damage this is doing, just as words, without even being voted on, much less passed. Then I think of who I know personally who would suffer if this thing happened. Then I expand that across tens of thousands of groups of acquaintances just like mine, and I get sick.
And then I get onto DU and people here say "who cares, its not real anyway". Or just flat mocking people who want to do something, anything, to prevent this, who just want it undone. Who desperately wish the last week could be rewound and replayed some other way.
I am baffled. I can only think that the disruptors have won. There are a few people of in leftist lalaland. There are a few people who are conservative plants. there are a few very loud "centrists". There are a few True blue Obama supporters. There ain't Much of A DU anymore though. I have as yet to see a serious discussion of the issue anywhere on any page of DU that hasn't been derailed in a few posts or less by hateful crap, posted by people with 10k+ posts who ought to know better. And that's sad. Maybe its time for a divorce. DU, OU, LU, and IRARBINPRNU can each go our own way, we don't seem to have much in common anymore. Maybe we never did.
myrna minx
(22,772 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts).. I am thankful you are on the side of the people. If the Third Way gamester you just verbally body slammed, isn't ashamed, it damn well should be.
You are absolutely spot on, this isn't a game and those it affects are human beings, not bargaining chips OR rhetorical tools for assholes to score point on the internet with.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)every word of it. And his post applies far beyond this little corner of the internet - all the hyper-partisan mainstream political discourse has NOTHING to do with human beings. It is all a game. A game directed by people who will win no matter what.
Woo wins the thread
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)haikugal
(6,476 posts)
FSogol
(45,485 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)who is doing it. Someone who spent years on Right Wing sites mocking women, gays and democrats in general, while holding back somewhat after being exposed, eg. I guess it is understandable they would slip every once in a while and reveal who they really are.
But it doesn't belong here on DU and as you can see, thankfully, a majority of DUers find it disgusting.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)Once again, I completely disagree. All the examples I've seen have been aimed at the behavior of your (admittedly large) group of online intelocutors, not the poor, not seniors, not the needy, but the interlocutors, and they've been aimed that way not because you are advocates, but because people are objecting to your own nasty behaviors. It's hard for people to see our own nasty behaviors - but they are surely flying around on all sides here. I find a lot of what I see coming from your group sickening as well, as do many others. Not sure we're going to get past that hump, but there is a lot of ill will and despicable posting going on from everybody - including y'all.
Cheers, sabrina 1. I like and respect you, but that's my judgment of the current situation.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)it is simple. I am a Democrat because that is the party of the people. SS is the cornerstone, the crown jewel of Democratic legislation. It has saved the lives of untold numbers of seniors, the disabled and dependent children. It is a MORAL program. Republicans are the anti-SS legislation and have been trying for decades to get their filthy, thieving hands on it to gamble it away on the Wall St. Casino.
To me, if you are not willing to stand up for that one program which affects the lives of millions of the most needy Americans (lord knows we have little else in this country to take care of them) then you are not a Democrat.
No democrat would even think of opening the door even a crack to let the predatory capitalists stick their foot in.
If that is nasty, then I wonder why it has only become nasty very, very recently.
To be completely honest with you, I have no personal interest in any politician. The last ten years have changed me from a naive, 'our party can do not wrong' to someone who has learned, after so many disappointments, that THAT was a dangerous thing to be, a total, blind partisan. I spent several years standing up for this party against the most vicious, and if you want to see nasty, right wingers.
Now I stand up for the people, the issues. And I don't much care who the elected representative is, what s/he looks like, what nice kids they have, we all have nice kids, what they do in their private lives, it's none of my business.
When it comes to politicians now, I care about one thing, how they vote on the issues. Period.
Funny thing, nothing I said here would have been considered 'nasty' until very recently. And I'm going to be completely honest once again. I believe that this president has made it very difficult for people, who like I used to be, truly want to believe in him because he is a democrat.
It's hard for them to defend his policies so they lash out at those of us who no longer are willing to defend those who betray the people's interests.
I was there once, I know how it felt to try to defend politicians I really, really wanted to be able to defend even when they did things that really not defensible, such as voting for ANY Bush policy. But I tried. It was hard, it made me angry often at those who saw the truth. But I was angry at the wrong people. I won't make that mistake again.
I wish I could apologize now to all of those I argued with because THEY were right and I was wrong. No politician should be defended when they act against the people's interests. I know that now.
And if that's nasty, I'm sorry. What I consider nasty is to call people who are trying to stand up for the people, 'professional democrats' or 'whiny, hysterical handwringers' or whatever other names they have come up with. I understand to an extent though. They can't defend a Democrat selling out on SS so they have to resort to pointing the finger somewhere else. That is what name-calling is always about. I don't and never did engage in it.
But their anger andor nastiness doesn't move me, bother me or do anything to change my mind. Because finally, I am free of the need to defend people I don't know, are acting against the interests of the American people, who were sent to DC to protect programs like SS, and it is a good feeling.
I respect you too, we just don't agree on this which makes me a little sad because we should.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)And sometimes they craft some haughty language to go with it, but they have a very hard time coming up with any examples. I mean, half of this thread was you saying 'no one mocks seniors' now you are saying 'both sides are wrong'. The consistency is lacking.
Both sides refuse to negotiate! Both sides! Sides! Teams! Groups!
Don't you ever just speak for yourself? Why take on the mask of a group? Several of the defenders of cuts speak in the plural 'we don't agree with you'. I have asked several who the 'we' is, is it the royal we, a mouse in your pocket, some mysterious clique of 'we'?
So first it was 'no one is doing this' now you are saying there are groups and your group does it, but so does 'the other group'.
What about YOU? As an individual? Why all this ranting about teams and groups? Are you seriously surprised that many Democrats oppose this cutting of benefits? You think such opposition needs to be organized? That is extremely naive and also self serving.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)Last edited Fri Apr 12, 2013, 09:56 AM - Edit history (1)
When I say groups, I am not referring to organized actions. I am referring to factions. They may be matters merely of agreement rather than organized affiliation. If you think you know what a "Third Way Dem" is and what an "FDR Dem" is, who is part of the "Cult of Personality" and who is a "Real Democrat," who is a "Realist" and an "Emoprog," then you recognize factionalism on the board. If you see a poster's name and say immediately before reading the post "I am going to agree and like this" or "This asshole again?" then you are part of a faction, pure and simple (cue the righteous ones who will now deny that they ever do this, that they read every post on its own merits, and play the "speak for yourself" routine - you do it and you know it). Pretending not to understand that and demanding a focus merely on individuals is a ridiculous denial of basic social dynamics. One need not have "officially" joined a faction to act in concert - it is crowd dynamics and factionalism all the way down. The factions on this board are attacking each other in obvious ways, but they are attacking each other as "the opposing faction," not as seniors, or the poor, or the needy.
Even if somebody has a worthy cause, they sometimes act like an asshole or make silly arguments. If they are mocked for acting like an asshole or making silly arguments, and try to hide their assholery or silliness behind their cause (you're not mocking me because I'm acting like an asshole or making a silly argument, but because I am poor!), then that's just dishonest and disingenuous and a further development of asshole behavior. And that's what's happening.
IveWornAHundredPants
(237 posts)There's another name: opinions. You appear to have an extremely tribal worldview, a need to group people into categories before you can deal with them. The Breakfast Club came out in 1985 - time to move on.
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)...before you start calling anyone out.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about.
IveWornAHundredPants
(237 posts)
babylonsister
(171,065 posts)I agree, it's definitely not as much fun coming here as it used to be. Lots of ill will...
Marr
(20,317 posts)
Puglover
(16,380 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)what I felt and got my post hidden. Of course ...there is a DU gang including a mod who are out to get me IMO.
Look at this accusation: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=297857
Marr
(20,317 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)deliberately bankrolled for the purpose of infiltrating the Democratic Party and passing corporate legislation like the theft of Social Security. It is well past time to be honest about about what is really being done to us by those who pretend to be our allies.
"Guess what? Chained CPI is the bright idea of Third Way, the Dem "policy shop.'"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2489745
The Third way folks are the real "professional left"...er...one percent posing as left.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022644983#post155
Wall Street uses the Third Way to lead its assault on Social Security
http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2012/11/wall-street-uses-the-third-way-to-lead-its-assault-on-social-security.html#more-3690
Third Way is run by a man who Laursen terms an “acolyte” of Pete Peterson. Peterson is a Republican, Wall Street billionaire who has two priorities – imposing austerity on America and privatizing Social Security. Privatizing Social Security is Wall Street’s unholy grail. They would receive hundreds of billions of dollars in fees and ensure that their firms were not only “too big to fail,” but “too big to criticize” if they could profit from a privatized retirement system. (We do not know who funds Third Way because it refuses to make its donors public. Given who dominates its Board of Trustees, however, the donors must be overwhelmingly from Wall Street.)
Third Way’s self-description has some elements of honesty, admitting that it is “led by a prominent private sector Board of Trustees, drawn from finance, industry, academia, the non-profit sector and government.” The order is revealing – the board is dominated by finance, with a thin veneer provided by industry, and with the barest patina of “academics” and “government.”
Here are key excerpts from their web site identifying their board.
· John L. Vogelstein
Mr. Vogelstein is the Chairman of New Providence Asset Management, LLC and Senior Advisor to Warburg Pincus, LLC. [He co-managed that huge private equity firm.]
· Bernard L. Schwartz
Mr. Schwartz is Chairman and CEO of BLS Investments, LLC.
· David Heller
Mr. Heller … was … the Global Head of Equity Trading for Goldman Sachs.
· Georgette Bennett
Dr. Bennett—an award-winning sociologist, criminologist, and journalist…. [Yeah criminologists!]
· William D. Budinger
William D. “Bill” Budinger is the founder of Rodel, Inc., where he served for 33 years as its chairman and CEO. [Rodel manufactured semi-conductors.]
· David A. Coulter
Mr. Coulter serves as Managing Director and Senior Advisor at Warburg Pincus, focusing on the firm’s financial services practice.
Mr. Coulter retired in September 2005 as vice chairman of J.P. Morgan & Chase Co. He previously served as Executive Chairman of its investment bank, asset and wealth management, and private equity business.
· Jonathan Cowan
Prior to co-founding Third Way, Mr. Cowan founded and ran Americans for Gun Safety…. In 1992, he co-founded Lead…or Leave, which became the nation’s leading Generation X advocacy group. [He lobbied to protect “second amendment rights” to bear arms and led a Pete Peterson inspired group urging “Gen X” members to unravel the safety net.]
· Lewis Cullman
Mr. Cullman was the Founder and President of Cullman Ventures, Inc., a diversified corporation that included the At-A-Glance group, which manufactures and markets diaries….
· William M. Daley
William Daley served as President Obama’s Chief of Staff from January 2011 until January 2012.
Prior to his Chief of Staff role, he was Vice Chairman … of … JPMorgan Chase, from 2004 until 2011.
As Special Counsel to President Clinton in 1993, Daley coordinated the successful campaign to pass the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).
He was co-chair of the US Chamber of Commerce Center for Capital Markets Competitiveness. [This is code for deregulation of finance.]
· John Dyson
Mr. Dyson is Chairman of Millbrook Capital Management, Inc. (MCM), a private investment firm.
· Robert Dyson
Mr. Dyson … is Chairman and CEO of the Dyson-Kissner-Moran Corp., a privately owned, diversified investment holding company….
· Andrew Feldstein
Andrew Feldstein is the CEO and Chief Investment Officer of BlueMountain Capital Management….
Prior to co-founding BlueMountain in 2003, Mr. Feldstein spent over a decade at JPMorgan where he was a Managing Director and served as Head of Structured Credit; Head of High Yield Sales, Trading and Research; and Head of Global Credit Portfolio. [“High yield” is a euphemism for junk bonds.]
· Brian Frank
Mr. Frank is a Director and Portfolio Manager at MSD Capital, L.P., the private investment firm founded by Michael Dell.
· Michael B. Goldberg
Mr. Goldberg joined Kelso & Company in 1991 as a Partner and Managing Director. [Private equity.]
· Peter A. Joseph
Mr. Joseph has been in the private equity investment business for over twenty years….
· Derek Kaufman
Derek Kaufman is Head of Global Fixed Income at Citadel LLC. He is a member of Citadel’s Portfolio Committee.
Prior to joining Citadel in 2008, Mr. Kaufman was a Managing Director at JPMorgan Chase….
· Derek Kirkland
Mr. Kirkland is a Managing Director and Co-Head of the Global Financial Institutions Group at Morgan Stanley’s Financial Institutions Group in Investment Banking.
· Ronald A. Klain
Ronald A. “Ron” Klain is President of Case Holdings, and General Counsel of Revolution LLC. [Case is an investment fund for the holdings of AOL’s founder.]
· Thurgood Marshall, Jr.
Mr. Marshall is a partner at Bingham McCutchen LLP, and a Principal of Bingham Consulting Group. Mr. Marshall counsels and devises strategies for advancing clients’ interests before Congress, the executive branch and independent regulatory agencies. [He is a lobbyist for a firm best known for representing financial firms.]
· Susan McCue
Ms. McCue is President of Message-Global, LLC, a strategic communications and public affairs firm she founded in January 2008 to advance progressive campaigns, activism and issue advocacy in the U.S. and globally.
· Herbert Miller
Mr. Miller, former CEO and Chairman of The Mills Corporation, one of America’s most innovative and successful mall developers and managers, founded Western Development Corporation (WDC) in 1967 and serves as its Chairman, Chief Executive Officer and Principal Stockholder.
· Michael Novogratz
Mr. Novogratz has been President and Director of Fortress Investment Group LLC….. Prior to joining Fortress, Mr. Novogratz spent 11 years at Goldman Sachs….
· Andrew Parmentier
Mr. Parmentier is a Founding and Managing Partner of Height Analytics. He and fellow Managing Partner John Akridge formed the company in January 2009. He has worked in the financial services industry since 1997….
· Kirk Radke
Recognized internationally as one of the top private equity attorneys during his 28 year career at Kirkland & Ellis….
Among professional activities, Mr. Radke is Co-Chair & Organizer of the International Bar Association Private Equity Symposium, Founder of the Private Equity General Counsel Network, Founder of Legal Series and Co-Founder of the Private Equity Law Firm Roundtable.
· Howard Rossman
Dr. Rossman is a President and Founder of Mesirow Advanced Strategies, Inc. and a Vice Chairman of its parent, Mesirow Financial Holdings Inc. He is responsible for all aspects of fund management, including manager due diligence, strategy analysis and asset allocation.
· Tim Sweeney
Mr. Sweeney has been President and CEO of the Denver-based Gill Foundation since October 2007. For more than 30 years, he has worked to advance equality for all people regardless of sexual orientation or gender expression.
· Ted Trimpa
Mr. Trimpa is a partner with the international law firm, Hogan Lovells LLP.
· Barbara Manfrey Vogelstein
She has over 24 years of experience in venture capital and specialized equity investing. [S]he was a Partner of Warburg Pincus, one of the world’s largest private equity firms.
· Joseph Zimlich
Mr. Zimlich is the Chief Executive Officer of Bohemian Companies, a group of family-owned real estate and private equity holdings.
Twenty of the twenty-nine trustees come from finance (counting the lawyer whose specialty is representing private equity firms). Their most common background is Mitt Romney’s – private equity – and hedge funds. The nine non-finance members include:
A Pete Peterson acolyte who previously created supposedly centrist front groups for gun rights and an effort to enlist “Gen X” in Wall Street’s assault on the safety net
A developer of giant malls
A semi-conductor manufacturer
A manufacturer of diaries
A criminologist/journalist
A PR specialist
A gay rights activist
A lobbyist at a firm best known for representing finance
A lawyer
The board includes three representatives of “main street” (malls, semi-conductors, and diaries). They are not heavy hitters compared to the finance representatives. On finance issues, Third Way is Wall Street. It is run by Wall Street for Wall Street. It is liberal only on social issues such as gay rights – and Wall Street created Third Way to focus on finance.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Rmoney said he thought Simpson Bowles recommendations were important to consider.
And Obama smiled and said that he was on board with Simpson Bowles as well.
If you voted for Obama knowing that, what else can be said? He told you what he wanted to have happen. And it is happening.
Meanwhile some 600 billions a year goes to "modernize" the biggest military on earth.
Too bad us seniors require food, and cannot be force fed scrapped military items.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Also, I get to vote for 4 offices serving out of DC, 2 Senators, a House Member and the President. Of those 4 Democrats, 3 oppose these Republican policies, only the President agrees with Mittens.
So I voted for 3 Democrats and I also voted for 'not Mitt'. What else can be said? 3 to 1 against. That's what can be said.
Also, I can say I'll never again vote for a Third Way 'centrist', nor for anyone associated with Barack Obama. I do not vote for right wingers with mediocre imaginations.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)with Barack Obama."
You are not alone in that at this point. Best thing to do is focus on Congress. I noticed over the past few elections that the whole focus has been on the WH elections. We have learned now that the POTUS can only be effective, for or against the people, if Congress supports him. The real power is in Congress.
First thing the people need to do now is to ignore the Presidential race. I think it has become clear that we will never get a real Progressive president to even make it to the nomination. But all of our energy is sucked up by that race.
I hope that changes this time.
ForgoTheConsequence
(4,868 posts)The poor in this country and the lower middle class have been long forgotten about, by both parties. The upper middle class and the wealthy always think they know whats best and when a poor person speaks up they tend to be very condescending to them. We wouldn't take this from Republicans we shouldn't take it from Democrats.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)Triana
(22,666 posts)would address the growing poverty issue and help SS since more would be paying more into it, and if obstinate brats (Repubs) would get off their dead asses and pass Obama's jobs bill, our public infrastructure could be repaired (and that which is being privatized ought not be such as the schools and USPS).
Instead we're force-fed bullshit propaganda about what a threat the debt/deficit is. But the bigger and more immediate issue is JOBS JOBS JOBS and it has been since Day 1 of Obama's first term.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Gov nothing and would stimulate the economy.
But then the goal would have to be to make this a better country for all Americans. It is not, Wall St runs this country and no one will get to the WH unless Wall St approves of them. THAT is what we have to change.
Milliesmom
(493 posts)He comes by the third week of every month and takes me to buy $50. worth of groceries to last until my next months SS check comes in. He knows I run out of food just about then as my money never (NEVER ) goes far enough, I pay my bills,(just the cost of living, heating etc, buy food and then I have no money left) If some emergency comes up money wise it is S.O.L., this is my life, no dinners out, no travel, no nothing extra. Not my dream of retirement.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)and you must have raised that kid right
There seem to be quite a few people who honestly believe we have an adequate 'safety net'. We don't. We have systemic poverty and it doesn't take a whole lot of looking (at statistics -or- actual people) to see it.
There are also people who have a tendency to nitpick the anecdotes of others (well, if you'd get a cheaper cell phone and get rid of your dog....) as though any of those decisions are easy, or would save enough to make a difference. They'll never admit it is systemic no matter the statistics, the trends, the 'macro' picture. Instead they blame the individual and push this mentality through pundits and propaganda.
One thing about being poor that really compromises people's 'freedom', is the lack of peace of mind that comes with economic insecurity. There are people who have no idea what that feels like.
I hope we see a day when NO ONE has to know what that feels like.
But these days, there are a lot of people who do. I suppose the only reassurance that offers is that you are not alone.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Great post.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)Applause!! I agree completely.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)future. It will be some forgotten shut-in, starving quietly to death.
sorefeet
(1,241 posts)I worked like a fuckin dog for 44 years, my body is broken for the profits of the corporations. I can't leave the country because no one wants me and I can't afford it. I have been used and am the laughing stock of the elite. We are nothing but tools, when you wear out they just throw you away and get a replacement.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)EVERYTHING is a commodity, ESPECIALLY people. As soon as you become unable to work, you become a "useless eater".
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Thank you. You are speaking for so many besides just yourself.
SCVDem
(5,103 posts)I would wonder when they only wish to buy one bullet.
Hopelessness is death one day at a time.
I guess the Tea Party doesn't care about killing Granny any more as long as the budget is balanced and taxes on the rich don't go up.
One day at a time.
carolinayellowdog
(3,247 posts)Just knowing that the elite of both parties and the entire punditocracy disdains us is deeply depressing.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)"Hopelessness is death one day at a time."
I hope you don't mind if I quote you. I've been living that for more than five years.
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)generations before them"
Correction: Workers wages have stagnated since the 1970's.
Overworked America: 12 Charts That Will Make Your Blood Boil
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/06/speedup-americans-working-harder-charts
The generation before you, which I assume is the the baby boomers generation, enjoyed no real
increases to their incomes despite their productivity.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)Some great stuff there.
You are right about the boomers, and the divide has ramped up even faster since then, like in the first graph at that link. Especially with that 'average income of the 1% thrown in there. It makes it very clear where all the profit is going.
Damn.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Liberalynn
(7,549 posts)
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)MichiganVote
(21,086 posts)tokenlib
(4,186 posts)socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)in any significant way. Without a total systemic change.
Blue Owl
(50,373 posts)n/t
KoKo
(84,711 posts)Here and There on the Internets since Bush left Office. I only heard it once Obama was Elected and it went on...and on...and on.
It's been everywhere from MSM to NYT, WaPo to filtering to the RW Blogs then Picked up by the Left by supporters of Tearing Apart Franklin Delano Roosevelt's NEW DEAL.
Its paid for by the Petersen Foundation, mainly...and it's supporters who can contribute on Partisan Think Tank Blogs and then carried by even LIBERAL Democratic Webs Sites.
No matter How Often it's Shot Down..that MEME on all the Comment Sites...it still "Lives" through the Petersen and other Foundation money to try to trash the "NEW DEAL." They've been working for DECADES on IT.... They sure aren't going to stop now...and they NOW have OBAMA in their Pocket...so it seems...sadly.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)needs to be answered. Eg, who are these people who attack use words like 'boomers' and 'professional left' etc. Maybe because I spent so many years online arguing with the far right, I am very suspicious when I see the same language they used to describe democrats, being used her. At least you'd think they would get some material, some different tactics.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)and that's where I think it came from. Petersen has been around a long time...in the background. He has many in his pocket. While we were all worrying about Mellon-Scaife funding Ken Starr during Clinton investigation years...Petersen has been out there. Not a peep did we know how important he was and the ear he had of powerful Democrats.
Check out this New Source Watch Investigation of the "Fix the Debt Crowd" and Petersen. Look through the Powerful Names...and you will see the Democratic connections. They are "Bi-Partisan"
with some ugly bedfellows. It helps explain why Obama has been disappointing. I think he's been captured for awhile by these people.
I think Bill Clinton was also...and Hillary. It's Third Way, Neo Lib along with the "Moderate" Repugs who have Power on Wall Street and inside the Military Industrial Complex. Revolving Door Politicians.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Fix_the_Debt%27s_Leadership
Good information to share with those who may not know. Thanks! We need to walk, no run, away from the third way neo-libs...NOW!
Enough of Trojan Horse politics!
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)BanTheGOP
(1,068 posts)We need to forget about the inhouse arguing that the rethugs are constantly wanting us to do here on DU. Instead, just get a wealth tax added, get the excess trillions of dollars out of private ownership, and pay for everyone's needs without instituting a tax at the low levels. Pure and simple. Done deal.
tokenlib
(4,186 posts)Would love a financial transction tax too!! A few pennies out of the hide of that e-trade baby/toddler would solve a lot of problems...
Harriety
(298 posts)
bigtree
(85,996 posts). . . the same programs in his first term.
Folks should quit piling on the anxiety and quit worrying seniors that that the cuts have a chance in hell of becoming reality. That would be a start. Maybe if there weren't so many interests using this lonesome proposal to attract attention and money to their cause, we'd see a more balanced discussion which didn't fail to include their weak-to-non-existent prospects for success in this Congress.
We could also do with an honest assessment of the things this administration has done and is still working on to 'address the real problems of growing poverty, growing inequality, unemployment, and the gutting of public infrastructure,' instead of pretending like this WH budget proposal represents the sum of this President's efforts.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)in the first place does not? That is so contradictory. Proposing them, asking the Congress to enact these cuts, that does not cause anxiety among seniors and others, but any opposition to that proposal DOES cause anxiety? Convoluted and strained rhetoric that is not even managing to pose as logic or reason.
bigtree
(85,996 posts). . . issues like this can be explained without scaring folks with falsehoods; like claiming that cuts to SS are imminent or pending because of this WH budget proposal to Congress.
Are you just incapable of describing the political landscape and the history of WH budget guidance to Congress and the fate of the vast majority of proposals like this one which have no legislative vehicle without alarming folks? Or, is it that it just doesn't fit the narrative of catastrophe that you want to convey?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)and many, many other things?
http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/cepr-blog/even-with-exemptions-chained-cpi-proposal-will-end-up-hurting-low-income-people
If you have information about exemptions, you should post it. If you just have questions, ask them. Which is it, I sure don't see any supporting evidence for your question wrapped assertion.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)And your attempts to derail it confirm the affirmative answers I've seen elsewhere.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)You posted claiming you wanted information, I gave you information and you act upset by that? Did you even bother to read the link? Or would becoming informed challenge your already cemented views?
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)never waver. It is on full display in this thread.
Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #114)
Post removed
Lifelong Protester
(8,421 posts)I don't want to make it a generational thing, but I do have to say from my own experience, that the further away you are from SS and retirement, the easier it is to have a cavalier attitude, as if it doesn't affect you.
Listen up! Your retirement years, if there ever again will be such a thing, are closer than you think. Like objects in the rear view mirror.
And quite frankly, if one thinks it is ok to mock oldsters, or deny youngsters, or immigrants, or whomever is the 'whipping boy' group, THAT IS WHAT TPTB WANT! It is called 'divide and conquer'.
We need to stick together, not marginalize some group so it is "just a little better"for ourselves.
Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)locks
(2,012 posts)Obama's answer to the complaint that his budget proposal will hurt seniors is: We make up the cuts in Social Security for really poor seniors by giving them a "bonus". Most seniors including myself get about $1000 a month which does not cover basic living expenses but does not qualify for Medicaid. This means that persons over 76 will get a slight increase each year until it will make up for what they're losing after 10 years, at age 86. But don't worry, if you live to 95 your monthly check will increase. Will it cover home care, hearing aids, dental care, eye care, all my meds? No, but you'll have Medicare...oh, wait it doesn't cover those either.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)fund. If he has to 'fix' what he is proposing, then it is already a bad decision.
And, to repeat once again, cutting SS will not reduce the Deficit. Because SS had nothing to do with the deficit. But by proposing it as he has, he is perpetuating the Right Wing lie that SS in some way caused the deficit. It's unconscionable to perpetuate that lie.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)is, to me, the glaring, blinding, obscene red light of offense in this whole discussion.
We have been so absurdly, offensively propagandized by the one percent that we now waste time arguing over whether it is acceptable for a Democratic President to ASSAULT us, as long he includes some vague promises to spare a few of the most vulnerable as part of the deal.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)raise benefits so that everyone has enough to live on without any interference from
Wall St or their employees in our government.
This proposal, 'we are going to take care of the most vulnerable' turns SS into a welfare program the long held desire of the Right so they can do what Alan Simpson did, accuse SS beneficiaries of being 'greedy old geezers, taking welfare from the government'.
SS doesn't need any charity thank you very much. The fund needs to be distributed through raising benefits, which would also stimulate the economy, take care of the most vulnerable, and would not cost the Fed Gov anything. Iow, a stimulus program already paid for by the people.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)You are right. SS, but also and especially this country and government as a whole, has far, far more than enough to ensure that every single one of us could live without hunger and fear. We are deliberately kept in a state of vicious competition and desperation for the basics of life, because it is profitable to the one percent.
It is a fundamental evil perpetrated on millions of us, by a corrupt few.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I think we're supposed to be better than that
MisterP
(23,730 posts)just like Qadima attacked Gaza to stop the *real* warmongers from getting into power
usGovOwesUs3Trillion
(2,022 posts)They are only concerned with their own agenda, not what happens to most people.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)
MrYikes
(720 posts)My basic concern about DU is the lack of conversation about the Democratic Party. I see many threads about the republican party and how to fix it, but seldom about ourselves....and it is needed. So this thread is a good thing, a look in the mirror.
Thanks.