Victim-blaming and woman-shaming claim another victim

[redqueen]

No, I won't say s***-shaming. Bcause there's no such thing as a s***.

This rape culture, where women are shamed for behavior that in men is met with a wink and a nod and even respect, has claimed another life. Please don't try to tell me that terms like 'playa' or 'man-whore' carry the same scorn in the same way that the words targeting women do. Just the fact that its necessary to put the word 'man' in front of 'whore' to use it about a man tells you all you need to know.

Blaming and shaming women costs lives. Girls and women need to know that they can come forward. That they won't be blamed, or shamed. They need to know someone will listen, and believe them.

Rape Culture Claims Another Victim: Teen Ends Life After Photo Of Her Alleged Gang Rape Goes Viral
...

Seventeen-year-old Rehtaeh Parsons’ suicide was the harrowing end to a story involving not only sexual assault, but also the issues of harassment and victim-blaming that are problematic symptoms of rape culture. According to her mother Leah Parsons’ post on her Facebook, Rehtaeh was subject to significant bullying from her peers, who labeled her as a “slut”:

“The (p)erson Rehtaeh once was all changed one dreaded night in November 2011. She went with a friend to another’s home. In that home she was raped by four young boys…one of those boys took a photo of her being raped and decided it would be fun to distribute the photo to everyone in Rehtaeh’s school and community where it quickly went viral. Because the boys already had a “slut” story, the victim of the rape Rehtaeh was considered a SLUT.”

But there were other issues with the investigation as well, Parsons told the Halifax Chronicle Herald: “[t]hey didn’t even interview the boys until much, much later” and “nothing was done about [the photos] because they couldn’t prove who had pressed the photo button on the phone.” She was told that even the distribution of the photos was “not really a criminal issue,” despite the fact that Rehtaeh was 15 at the time, meaning the photos constituted child pornography.

While the investigation was ongoing, Rehtaeh struggled with anger and depression leading to her hospitalization on one occasion. She also moved to a different city to avoid harassment of her peers, including a barrage of texts asking “Will you have sex with me?” and telling her “You’re such a slut.” The Steubenville victim similarly faced harassing text messages after her identity was revealed by news coverage, including threats resulting in charges against two teens.


http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/04/09/1840501/rehtaeh-parsons-rape-culture/

Link with more information, and a petition demanding an inquiry into the way this case was handled.
http://bellejarblog.wordpress.com/2013/04/09/rehtaeh-parsons/

[niyad]

1. this is so far beyond sickening. . .

. . .

Rehtaeh’s rapists are still out there. They are still in high school, they are still going to parties and they are, quite likely, still raping. Why wouldn’t they? They got away with it once, didn’t they? Rehtaeh’s rapists are still living normal, untroubled lives, and she is dead.
She’s dead, but even in the wake of her suicide and the attention her case has gained, government officials are refusing to review why the RCMP declined to lay charges against Rehtaeh’s rapist.

Instead, Nova Scotia’s justice minister, Ross Landry, released this fucking joke of a statement:
“As a community, we need to have more dialogue with our young people about respect and about support to educate our young boys and our young girls about what’s appropriate behaviour, what’s not appropriate behaviour,” Landry said.
“We have to make sure that we’re cognizant about what gets online and what doesn’t get online and what the impacts are, so it’s having that dialogue.
“That still doesn’t take away the fact that we’ve lost a beautiful young woman … and I’m very upset about the loss.”

Saying that we need to educate boys and girls about appropriate behaviour is victim-blaming. Saying that this wouldn’t have been a problem if the pictures hadn’t ended up online is like saying that rape is fine, but publicly broadcasting it isn’t. Calling Rehtaeh’s death a tragedy because we’ve lost a beautiful young woman is a joke – seriously, what bearing does her appearance have on how sad her death is? And since Landry is refusing to open an official review into how the RCMP handled this, isn’t he basically saying, “I think she was lying about the rape, but gosh, she sure was hot”

. . . .

http://bellejarblog.wordpress.com/2013/04/09/rehtaeh-parsons/

[nadine_mn]

124. the phrasing "educate ... about what's appropriate behavior" makes me vomit

Rape isn't a behavior - its a crime.... we don't call murder a "behavior" ffs

Taking pictures of it, distributing them and bullying a young woman - these are crimes.

Dismissing it as "inappropriate behavior" minimizes it and further blames the victim.

Just disgusting.

[niyad]

127. apparently this guy is in deep s*** for some remarks he made a few months ago in

another situation (see downthread--the poster lives in that area)

[alp227]

150. Yep. Reminds me of the US commercial media's Steubenville coverage

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/03/18/1732701/media-steubenville/

Actual ABC News description of the story: "every parent’s nightmare and a cautionary tale for teenagers living in today’s digital world"

Based on the existence of universal health care and widespread secularism among the people I thought Canada was the smarter American nation. But rape culture even exists there.

[Posteritatis]

206. I'm relieved local news is handling this one a bit better so far, at least

Nova Scotia's generally got some good, independent media who are more than willing to break out the fangs if something gets the various newspapers (and, to a lesser extent, TV journalists) angry.

I've been here 32 years and have never seen the provincial press as unanimously furious as they are right now. This won't be left alone.

[TheMadMonk]

156. They know. They also know they can get away with it. Education won't do it.

The only thing that will is the hammer of doom.

[geek tragedy]

2. K&R. nt

[quinnox]

3. lol, so you can't even spell out "slut"

Add another word to the forbidden list.

[zappaman]

5. What is a "slut"?

Apparently there is no such thing...

[quinnox]

12. good point

Glad that got cleared up...

[BainsBane]

40. why don't you tell us

[zappaman]

48. I'll let this woman tell you...

Margaret Cho: All-American slut

After her one lightning Sapphic fling, when she was working as the comic on a lesbian cruise to Alaska, Margaret Cho wondered whether she was gay or straight. She decided that she was just a slut. “Where’s my parade?” she asks in her new film, “I’m the One That I Want.”


More at
http://www.salon.com/2000/06/08/cho_2/

[BainsBane]

56. does that fit the circumstances of a young woman

who was sexually assaulted and then killed herself? Did you read the OP, or do you simply not care?

[zappaman]

77. You asked a question..

I answered.

[BainsBane]

132. no, you didn't answer

not even close.

[JI7]

76. "when shew as working as the comic"

[MineralMan]

173. Do you find this case amusing?

Read the OP again. A girl has died. I'd leave it alone, if I were you. Humor isn't called for at all.

[whathehell]

61. Yes, Zappaman..Why don't you tell us?

Since you find our attitude so ridiculous...What is YOUR definition of a "slut"?

[zappaman]

73. Sure.!

I use this definition (bear in mind however, that like unicorns, SLUTS apparently don't exist).

Slut= A very promiscuous person.

What's your definition?

[whathehell]

88. "Sure" my ass.

now give us all a laugh by trying to convince as how calling a MALE a "slut"

is even NEARLY as frequent an occurrence as reserving it for females.

[zappaman]

89. What's your definition?

And can you write it out or is the word SLUT just to scary to spell?

[zappaman]

115. Actually it can be applied to both genders...

"Hard to grasp for one of limited intellect, I suspect....Maybe you'd do better playing in the shallow end of the
pool."
Thanks for being so civil!

ETA: spelling and clarification.

[niyad]

119. looking at the hidden post and yours, one notices that they seem to be identical.

[BainsBane]

133. It isn't applied to both genders

that's the point. And you know that.

[zappaman]

134. Sure it is.

I have more than one male friend who refers to themselves as a "slut".
Some heterosexual, some homosexual.

Maybe you don't?

[BainsBane]

137. You do realize this OP is about a dead rape victim?

a young girl gang raped and now dead, shamed by her gang rapists to the point she committed suicide. Is there any point at which you are going to decide that matters at all?

[zappaman]

139. Sure it matters.

And it's heinous.
But you keep asking me questions about a different matter, so I'm kind enough to answer.

[BainsBane]

140. It's not a different matter

At all. It's the exact same matter. The child was slut shamed to death. Think about that, and think about what it is you are trying to accomplish in this thread.

[BainsBane]

138. dictionary

slut [sluht] Show IPA
noun
1.
an immoral or dissolute woman; prostitute.
2.
Obsolete . a dirty, slovenly woman.
Origin:
1375–1425; late Middle English slutte; compare dial. slut mud, Norwegian (dial.) slutr sleet, impure liquid

Word story
Slut first appeared in the written language in 1402, according to the Oxford English Dictionary , that great repository of language information. At that time, slut meant roughly what one sense of slattern means today: a slovenly, untidy woman or girl. It also apparently meant “kitchen maid” (”She is a cheerful slut who keeps the pots scrubbed and the fires hot.”). By the end of the 15th century the sense “a woman given to immoral or improper conduct” had come into use, and it is the only meaning in use today. Interestingly, the same second meaning, a promiscuous woman, developed for the term slattern.

[zappaman]

145. So that settles it then.

Contrary to the OP's statement "Bcause there's no such thing as a s***. ", we find out there is such a thing!
Thanks for clearing that up!

[BainsBane]

147. I'll explain it to you

She said there is such thing because she opposes the notion that women should be expected to be less sexual than men. Obviously it's a term used widely, but its use indicates a double standard. It assumes shamefulness in women's sexuality. Redqueen believes the differing expectations of sexual activity for women as opposed to men are sexist and therefore wrong. Get it now?

[zappaman]

158. Not sure...

Can men be sluts?

[BainsBane]

159. Game time is over.

[zappaman]

160. Damn.

Was hoping for an honest answer.

[BainsBane]

163. Like you had 5 hours ago?

[zappaman]

164. yes

and now.
and probably 5 hours from now.

can men be sluts?

[BainsBane]

166. Read my earlier replies to that question.

[BainsBane]

167. To this in particular

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2645979

[zappaman]

168. Obviously she wasn't.

Does that mean some women can't be?
And can men be sluts?

[BainsBane]

170. This is clearly pointless

Last edited Wed Apr 10, 2013, 04:38 AM - Edit history (1)

There is nothing I can say to convince you to reflect on the life of this young woman or the cultural ideas about women and sexuality that compounded the trauma of being gang raped.
Hundreds of thousands more like her who be will raped in this country this year alone, as will many, many millions across the globe. Many of them will die, either as a result of injuries sustainEd in the assault or the ongoing psychological trauma. These are horrific crimes that strike 25%-50% of women on the planet. There is nothing funny about this thread.

[Luminous Animal]

161. Sure, your male friend's define themselves as a s**ts sbecause they are proud

of the sexual conquests. They are bragging.

A woman, on the other hand can be accused as being a s**t for even one sexual encounter (sex on the first date). One hundred sexual encounters. Consensual sex. Or rape.

[zappaman]

162. What about the females I know that identify themselves as sluts?

Are they "proud sluts"?

[BainsBane]

165. Read the article linked to in the OP. How is the term used?

If the young girl was proud to have her rapists call her slut, why did she kill herself?

[BainsBane]

136. when was the last time a man was shamed for having several partners?

Last edited Wed Apr 10, 2013, 02:21 AM - Edit history (1)

to the point of committing suicide? When was the last time a man who was gang raped was called a "slut"? When has a male rape victim who committed suicide ever been an opportunity for ridicule on this site? Meanwhile, we witness more laughs over a corpse of a gang raped young girl. I can't imagine what it is that makes some consider horror like this entertainment.

[JustAnotherGen]

176. +1

[niyad]

6. you think this is FUNNY? did it occur to you that some of us will refuse to use a word that is

a deliberate insult to females? that we refuse to use patriarchal shaming words?

Sister Militant
AC, PHD
Blessed Order of the Sisterhood of Perpetual Outrage

[niyad]

15. remdi95

[geek tragedy]

16. So, the real outrage to you is uppity feminists

not using words like "sl**" and not the traumatization of rape victims via victim-blaming.

Now please tell us how feminists need to stop offending natural allies such as yourself.

[BainsBane]

144. If that's an ally

We are really in trouble.

[BainsBane]

46. You are censoring others' writing

because it's not insulting enough of women to suit your tastes. No one said a thing about what you've written. This is an OP about a young woman who was traumatized by rape and killed herself. That you find that as an opportunity to make jokes and insist women use the words you like is repulsive.

[LiberalLoner]

83. +1

[JI7]

9. it is spelled out in the article, people often don't spell out things like the N word, F word

which are offensive and used to attack black and gay people.

[geek tragedy]

13. Thank you for showing everyone what a pro-equality

and pro-feminist person you are by this sober, respectful response to a discussion of the real harm of rape and victim-blaming.

[niyad]

17. sadly, most of us are not the least bit surprised.

[geek tragedy]

19. I wish feminists would stop picking on natural allies

like this guy. They should be more grateful to him

[niyad]

25. supremely grateful. saves getting a new scratching post

[Whisp]

102. yeh, if only we were nicer to guys like that

then they wouldn't demean women and act like blankety blanks.

It's not their faults, the poor misunderstood dears.

[geek tragedy]

121. Submitted without comment

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1255&pid=19759

[BainsBane]

153. If I had a dime for every time I'd heard that

On this site. Funny how attacking allies is never a concern when talking about Obama, Democratic pols, or other members who disagree on non-gender issues?

[Cali_Democrat]

14. come on, man

After reading this disgusting story....that is your reply?

Jeez.

[quinnox]

22. so, what should my reaction be?

[Cali_Democrat]

26. Perhaps outrage about what happend to this poor girl?

[quinnox]

31. I didn't realize we all had to share your reactions...

But fine, I am outraged!

[geek tragedy]

34. Thank you, you can leave now. nt

[quinnox]

36. you are very welcome

[nomorenomore08]

28. Maybe focus more on the actual crime/tragedy?

[quinnox]

35. understood

I will endeavor to do better next time.

[nomorenomore08]

44. I'm not in the business of telling people what to think. Because it pisses me off when others

do that to me. All I'm asking for is some basic humanity here...

[niyad]

87. don't hold your breath on that one

[geek tragedy]

33. How about discussing the actual subject instead

of harassing the poster who refused to use a word.

[Jamastiene]

41. Just a tad bit of compassion for the victim of a gang rape would be a respectable reaction.

I see you have no problem with that part of the story. You just want to split hairs of whether or not some feminists will spell out the word, slut. There, another faction of the feminists you hate so much on DU will spell it out. Satisfied now? Are you still going to obsess over that word or are you going to at least try to fake it and pretend to show a little compassion for a rape victim who was further victimized and received no justice? Or can you fake that tiny little bit of compassion? Do you even think rape is wrong? is wrong with you that you cannot show even the tiniest big of compassion for a person who was raped, then victimized even more after the fact?

[quinnox]

49. You left out accusations of satanism

[Jamastiene]

63. I don't even consider Satanism all that big of a deal.

Geez, we have freedom of religion in this country. I know Satanists. They just follow a different religion than I do. I don't care if you worship Satan or not. Even a Satanist can show compassion for a young girl that was brutally gang raped, but not you.

[geek tragedy]

64. +infinity

Even a Satanist can show compassion for a young girl that was brutally gang raped, but not you.

[BainsBane]

81. zing

Thank you!

[smirkymonkey]

90. Thank you!

Took the words right out of my mouth!

[whathehell]

110. You are most welcome.

[nomorenomore08]

24. Out of this whole thread, that's the *one thing* you focus on?

Get a grip, dude!

[jeff47]

29. Maybe when you reach puberty you might understand. (nt)

[BainsBane]

37. Now you have to edit other people's writing

to suit yourself? Not enough men using misogynist language. You're on a quest to make sure women don't dare refrain from using foul words to insult themselves.

[geek tragedy]

42. he's looking to start a flamewar so his posse

can come in and alert-stalk.

[niyad]

117. and apparently they did

[opiate69]

142. considering who you are replying to,

[theKed]

149. ...

[BainsBane]

51. Your concern for a young sexually assault victim now deceased

is truly touching. I'm sorry you feel you have nothing of substance to contribute to the discussion.

[geek tragedy]

53. He said above he thinks this discussion is funny. nt

[BainsBane]

59. Yes, I know

It's clear that rape is a common source of yucks for some. Doesn't that make you wonder what we're dealing with here?

[geek tragedy]

45. Jury results (a microcosm of why DU sucks on gender issues)

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Tue Apr 9, 2013, 05:46 PM, and voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Pathetic alerter. Really pathetic.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I think the OP is trolling. Disruptive and divisive.Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I disagree. It's about having an adult conversation without useing asterisks.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: This is just trollish. Some posters do not spell out certain words, such as cuss words, and they generally don't get attacked for it. Jumping on someone's case for not spelling out the word "slut" just seems trollish to me.

I would love juror #2 to have the gumption to defend their sleazy claim that OBJECTING TO RAPE AND VICTIM-BLAMING is "disruptive and divisive."

I will bet a $25 DU donation that Juror #2 does not have the guts to do so.

[Posteritatis]

58. Fucking hell. This site, sometimes. (nt)

[geek tragedy]

62. Another post of his did get hidden, so we

are now deprived of his profound insights.

[BainsBane]

68. It's divisive in the same way Obama is divisive

according to Fox News. By making people aware of issues of race or gender (Obama or redqueen), they are puncturing the white male cultural norms that are the only acceptable basis of unity--unity by denying all voices and experiences other than their own.

[geek tragedy]

70. It's divisive in the way that seeking marriage

equality and protecting the right to vote are divisive, to a certain kind of person.

[BainsBane]

71. Exactly!

[whathehell]

93. Geek, excuse me, but

when someone gets a post hidden, aren't they supposed to NOT be able

to post anymore on that thread?

Quinnox is still posting after his post was hidden.

[Posteritatis]

106. If an earlier post gets nuked it can look like the person's still posting.

I haven't detected the stench of any new posts from the guy since the one I reported got hidden, though there were a bunch posted between the report and then.

[whathehell]

109. Okay, thanks. n/t

[jeff47]

113. "voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE." (nt)

[whathehell]

116. Wrong post.. Try this one:

quinnox This message was hidden by Jury decision. Show

[hfojvt]

131. are you juror #6?

I would be curious as to what the alert message was.

Four jurors voted to leave it alone.

[Luminous Animal]

55. I'm sure she is physically capbable of typing it out but she prefers not to.

It can be freeing ceasing to use gender slurs.

But no one is stopping you from using it.

[Luminous Animal]

146. Kick.

[whathehell]

67. lol, do you find it just as funny when people choose

not to spell out the perjorative "n*gger?

[bettyellen]

69. your reaction to this thread is to LOL? Is there ice in your blood?

you see this and click on it solely to make fun of the poster? WTF?

[BainsBane]

74. In India, gang rape results in mass protests in the street

Here: LOL and taunts that the OP doesn't use language designed to further demean a deceased girl, put through horrific trauma that led to her suicide.

[bettyellen]

78. this gang rape was a "first world problem" and we're just SJWs typing about it all......

:barf:

[BainsBane]

79. SJWs?

[Posteritatis]

112. "Social justice warrior." (nt)

[BainsBane]

128. that's a term to be proud of

Social Justice warrior? I don't think I live up to that label. I wish I did.

[bettyellen]

148. It's like PC, only mindless adolescents think its a bad thing. LOL

[gaspee]

84. Unbelievable

I don't get how you can think that your post is in any way appropriate. I seriously do not get people sometimes. I'm not sure if I want to when it comes to this level of callousness.

[mindwalker_i]

155. As someone who's gotten annoyed at the "word police"

This is completely different. When you call a man a pussy, it isn't meant as a slur against women. Really, I believe that. Calling anyone a slut is completely and totally a different thing! It's very definitely against women, and there's no fucking way around that! So seriously, STFU!

Asshole

[niyad]

4. child pornography is not a community issue

. . . .

To add insult to injury, the RCMP did not seem to invest much effort into investigating either the assault or the photograph’s distribution (though they are apparently now investigating the “sudden death of a minor” – useful, thanks). I won’t get into their failure on her rape case, as Anne Thériault has already done a good job of that. I want to ask why the fuck Rehtaeh’s mother was told by the RCMP that the distribution of the photo was “not really a criminal issue, more of a community issue.”

. . .

http://stephguthrie.com/2013/04/09/child-porn-not-a-community-issue-rcmp/

[redqueen]

7. Because as people keep telling us, revealing pictures of girls and women are going to be shared

and there's nothing anyone will do about it, so if it happens, the blame is all on the girls/women.

[niyad]

8. as I said, beyond sickening

[geek tragedy]

21. Cops not taking rape and domestic violence seriously?

Surely that never happens!

[LittleBlue]

10. Reminds me of that Canadian girl who hanged herself

She sent topless pics to some internet creep and he spread them around. She got bullied until she killed herself.

I cannot understand this at all. When I went to high school, I never saw anyone bullied like this. Then again, Facebook and twitter never existed, we didn't have modern text messaging either. Kids seem to have become monsters since those two websites came out. Bullying shouldn't be tolerated in schools but for some reason it still is.

[redqueen]

23. Online isn't 'at school'... the problem is cultural.

It is open season on girls and women.

Think of the women just over the last several years who have been viciously attacked online for daring to criticize sexism, misogyny, male privilege, etc. These are grown women and they are ground down from the deluge of vicious, ugly attacks.

Young girls don't have the thick skin yet, they're still trying to form it. How many girls have been shamed to death? How many will be before we stop treating hate speech against women as a joke?

[LittleBlue]

38. I still think the school shouldn't get off the hook

Who cares if it's online? That's just the medium of communication, the whole reason for that communication is school association. If the school is enabling bullies by doing nothing, they're still at fault.

Schools are still tolerating it as harmless when it is vicious. If adults did it, they would be charged with a felony. It should be illegal. The bullies should be expelled one by one until the rest get the message. Kids do this because they know they have nothing to lose; time to change that.

[Posteritatis]

50. It's a few years back, but I attended one of those schools

It was the standard attitude on the issue, somewhere between "utterly indifferent" and "actively supportive of the bullies as long as weapons weren't involved."

The other of the two had an even nastier reputation when I was younger, but it's cleaned up in the last few years. That said, they're both large schools with lots of scope for containing assholes, as is shown by the fact that I'm talking about them with someone who heard about them in an altogether different country. Ugh.

[LittleBlue]

105. That's crazy

It's shocking to see the indifference to what would be considered crimes in adults. Don't these people realize that by not correcting them, they are encouraging future criminal behavior?

[redqueen]

66. I agree with you that schools should do more.

Most schools have policies restricting their responsibility for policing behavior to what happens on school.property, but they could do more in other ways.

I don't know what you mean by adults being charged with a felony, though. Which crime would it be?

[bettyellen]

75. should be mandatory for schools to report to the local police. colleges sure don't.

[LittleBlue]

80. The girl in Canada was beaten up and nothing was done

I googled it, her name was Amanda Todd.

During the video, Todd writes that when she was in Grade 7, she used video chat to meet new people over the Internet and she received compliments on her looks. A stranger convinced Todd to bare her breasts on camera. The individual later blackmailed her with threats to expose the topless photo to her friends unless she gave a "show."[11]

Todd wrote that during the next Christmas break, police informed her at 4:00 a.m. that the photo was circulating on the Internet. Todd wrote that she experienced anxiety, depression, and panic disorder because of this. Her family moved to a new home, where Todd later stated that she began using drugs and alcohol.[11]

A year later, the individual reappeared, creating a Facebook profile which used the topless photograph as the profile image, and contacting classmates at her new school. Again Todd was teased, eventually changing schools for a second time. She wrote that she began chatting to "an old guy friend" who appeared to her. The friend asked Todd to come to his house where they had sex while his girlfriend was on holiday.[12] The following week, the girlfriend and a group of others attacked Todd at school while shouting insults and punching her to the ground. Following the attack, Todd attempted suicide by drinking bleach, but she was rushed to hospital to have her stomach pumped.[11]

After returning home, Todd discovered abusive messages about her failed suicide attempt posted to Facebook. Her family moved to another city to start afresh, but Todd was unable to escape the past. According to her mother, "Every time she moved schools he would go undercover and become a Facebook friend. What the guy did was he went online to the kids who went to (the new school) and said that he was going to be a new student — that he was starting school the following week and that he wanted some friends and could they friend him on Facebook. He eventually gathered people’s names and sent Amanda’s video to her new school", including students, teachers, and parents.[13] Six months later, further messages and abuse were still being posted to social networking sites. Todd's mental state worsening, she began to engage in self-mutilation. Despite taking anti-depressants and receiving counselling, she took an overdose and spent two days in hospital.[14]

Todd was teased by other students at her school for her low grades, a consequence of a language-based learning disability and for the time she spent in the hospital to treat her severe depression.[15]

On October 10, 2012, at about 6:00 PM (PDT), Todd was found hanged at her home.[16][17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Amanda_Todd

The students committed what we in this country would consider battery or possibly aggravated battery at school, and nothing was done. In the case you posted, it looks like rape and child porn. Even if these can't be proven in a court, they should still have the option to expel the offenders.

Without consequences it seems some schools have environments similar to Lord of the Flies.

[redqueen]

92. Yes, Amanda Todd.

I had forgotten she was actually beaten up.

Many people around the world joined in in shaming and ridiculing and mocking her.

This whole world is turning into Lord of the Flies.


Also, I didn't know that the school knew about Rheata's rape, or the picture that was circulating. I know that schools.will bend over backwards to avoid liability.

[Posteritatis]

27. And every. Single. Fucking. Time. People pile on to blame the victim. It's infuriating. (nt)

[nomorenomore08]

30. They want to believe it can't happen to them. Or to the women in their lives, if they're male.

nt

[Posteritatis]

39. Yep. Or that they deserve anything they get if it happens. (nt)

[JI7]

47. there is a big "she asked for it" in all of this

she just HAD to have done something. why did she go to the party, what was she wearing , did she ever show interest in any of the guys before etc etc .

at most they might give a "i'm not saying it was ok what the guys did BUT............... and go on the blame the victim again.

[Posteritatis]

52. I find it telling that a lot of local news sites disabled comments on articles about this. (nt)

[JI7]

65. that is interesting, i hope some outside reporters go in there and check it out

wouldn't be surprised if it's like Steubenville where there are many connections among those living there and refusing to do anything to go after the guys.

[Posteritatis]

72. Oh, local media will go on the warpath about this

People here are lucky in that regard - when someone gets the Chronicle-Herald or a few other local sources angry they do not take prisoners. I don't see them letting this go quickly.

The readers/commenters are another thing, unfortunately. Local news tend to disable comments on articles that are just going to get shat on by the mouthbreather demographic, and anything touching on bullying or most forms of rape draw them like flies, unfortunately.

The reporters themselves? They Get It on stuff like this around here, and they're pissed.

[redqueen]

86. Thank you, Posteritatis.

That is really good to hear.

[Posteritatis]

97. 140-year-old still-independent papers Get Things Done.

They're currently dragging the province, kicking and screaming, into a bunch of criminal and civil inquiries into a recently-closed foster home that had a lot of, well, the nightmarish abuse problems a lot of those tended to have in the past.

They got fed up with the stonewalling and spent an entire week devoting most of their issues to calling out surviving staff at the home by name, describing crimes in significant detail, taking statements from victims corroborating it, etc. They even dropped the "alleged" term that most journalists use in a lot of the claims, and outright dared the accused to try a defamation suit, because they were confident that it would end up with the newspaper vindicated and the abusers in chains.

About once every couple of years something infuriates them enough that they do something along those lines, but it was by far the most spectacular one I've ever seen from them. If they get worked up over this story at all, heads are going to roll in the local school boards, and probably among the RCMP and provincial government, too.

[nomorenomore08]

95. "...and anything touching on bullying or most forms of rape draw them like flies..."

People living vicariously through bullies and sexual predators? Sure sounds like it to me. They may simply lack the "opportunity" - or so I would hope - to victimize others in real life.

[Posteritatis]

99. A mix of that and purely conventional victim-blaming, pretty much.

Mostly the latter when anything vaguely bullying-related comes up. That and that idiotic old "I was bullied and I turned out okay!" line.

[nomorenomore08]

111. My response: "Yeah, all that bullying turned you into a fine human being. I can really tell."

[nomorenomore08]

60. I think of it almost like separating the "wheat" from the "chaff." The "worthy" from the "unworthy."

People do that a million different ways, this is just one more.

[JI7]

32. it happened before also but the internet, texting etc does make it worse

in that kids can't get away from it once school is over. or go to another school as this girl did since it's out there for everyone .

[Union Scribe]

18. "it quickly went viral"

People are disappointing. All the people sharing that and spreading it are sick fucks and should be prosecuted.

[nomorenomore08]

54. And then think of all the kids prosecuted for consensual (albeit underage) "sexting."

Something is seriously out of balance here.

[Posteritatis]

20. Her high school - the second one she went to try to get away from this - is right next to my house.

I can see it out my bedroom window right now, and went there myself in the nineties.

Absolutely everything about this sucks.

[alp227]

151. Posteritatis, since you're from the area, I as a lifelong American have some Q's.

I've considered Canada to be the smarter North American nation. They've beaten us (8 years and counting) in gay marriage. And in universal health care by something like 70, 80 years? But looking at the Amanda Todd and Parsons cases...and the local authorities' nonchalant responses like the provincial justice minister (what in the US is called an attorney general)...seems that rape culture transcends the border.

And NS has a New Democratic premier; the NDP in Canada is consider "social democratic" according to wikipedia. And 4 of 5 of the MPs from Halifax are from either the NDP or Liberal parties. Before looking up the info for myself I was about to ask if Nova Scotia is "Canada's Mississippi".

[Posteritatis]

204. I'll take a crack at those

First, the political aspects since you're wondering about those.

Canada is no more politically monolithic than the United States is. We're left of the United States politically, generally speaking, but we are kind of stuck with Harper for a couple more years thanks to the vagaries of the parliamentary system. The federal government tends to spend about three years under Liberal governance for every two it spends under the Conservatives in their various forms, though the system's probably going to be shook up over the next few decades between demographics and the major parties all reimaging themselves in odd ways. It gets odder when you look at federal/provincial jurisdictions, and the fact that those effectively mean that a provincial NDP or Conservative party can be very different from the federal ones, but that's outside the scope of this. Simply put, we're as complicated and flawed as any other nation of thirty-five million people.

Now, Nova Scotia in particular.

This province, along with the other three east of Quebec, are, shall we say, not the most advantaged region of the country, and haven't been for awhile. About twenty-five years ago there were some pretty bad collapses in the region's mainly natural resource-based industries and the resulting craptacularity is something we've only really started recovering from in the last few years. The part of Nova Scotia I spent my childhood in, Cape Breton, has something obscene like 18% unemployment and that's been improving. The provincial capital, Halifax, where all the mess this thread is about happened, is doing vastly better - and has a half-dozen universities, which explains the election results - but it's still a city in a province that spent a very long time absolutely in the gutter and that's got the spread of nasty cultural effects that implies.

The school whose students assaulted Parsons is in Cole Harbour, which is officially part of Halifax since the city amalgamated with a bunch of other communities back in the nineties, but is usually treated by locals as a separate town (along with a few of the other major communities like the one I'm in). If you take Halifax's issues as a whole and ramp them up somewhat you've got Cole Harbour - by the standards of the town as a whole it tends to be poorer and rougher, both physically and in terms of the population. The high school in particular has had an incredibly toxic reputation going back into the nineties when I was a student at another school (the one I mentioned in my post) - it was seen as the kind of place that was rife with violence, drug problems, and so on and so forth by students in the urban schools, so make of that what you will.

The school I attended was a larger one and had its own issues, feeding from some bad neighborhoods as well, but it also tended to be the school that people who had problems at Cole Harbour High would transfer to to try and get away from things. (A few people I knew back then had transferred to my school from there for safety reasons.)

In this particular case, I don't know if what's going on is "Cole Harbour District High School is still a cesspit," or if it's "Cole Harbour District High has a couple of dozen awful, awful people." Either's as likely, the latter probably a little moreso, and it's going to be under much more of a microscope in the coming weeks than the students and staff there have been used to since what amounted to a race riot back in the nineties. That examination's incredibly overdue.

As to the rape culture issue in general? Much as I hate to admit it, yes, Canada has a problem with that. There isn't a place on this planet that doesn't. I'd like to say we're better at it than some, which doesn't excuse the conduct when things like this happen. That said, I've been seeing Steubenville comparisons in this thread and others, and I don't think those apply much at all. There's a lot of vile little shits in Cole Harbour who brought about a kid's death by the usual circling of wagons that rapists' friends (or high school bullies in general) tend to do, and the Justice Minister almost certainly destroyed his career despite his backpedaling on the investigation issue this afternoon, yes.

On the other hand, the reactions towards this in local media since yesterday, and much moreso today, have been absolutely unanimous rage of a type I haven't seen in local news for a long, long time. Every single paper, down to the university ones, that prints in or near the province had this story on their front page - the only thing on their front page for some - with a tone at least as outraged as the discussions on DU have been having.

We very much have a problem, of course, because this happened in the first place. A bunch of students are going to keep defending what happened, keep protecting the assailants, because the types of people who do that in the first place tend to be valueless little shits who aren't going to be shamed by something like this at all. The police might hem and haw about reasonable doubt with the investigation, though they're going to be dragged back into trying to do something about it come hell or high water at this point. As for the population as a whole, there is absolutely not going to be one of those displays where half the locals start making excuses for the assailants, or talk about how the girl had it coming, or fret about the futures of those poor angels should the law come down on them. The province as a whole is way, way too angry about this right now, and a good chunk of them are exactly as embarrassed that it happened as they ought to be.

I know I am.

[Prism]

85. This is repeated victimization

I'm not sure name-calling adequately describes the situation. I don't even think the word bullying applies. This was assault from three angles of attack.

First her rapists assaulted her.

Then her peers assaulted her repeatedly by making sure she felt to blame and/or got what she deserved by being raped. To do that to a victim is to assault them.

And finally, the authorities, those charged with protecting her and seeking justice on her behalf, assaulted her by removing any refuge of trust and safety for her in this society when she was feeling most vulnerable.

I'd love to see all kinds of prosecutions rain down because of this.

[niyad]

94. and absolutely nothing will happen--read what the nova scotia justice minister said (reply #1)

[Posteritatis]

103. He's (1) toast and (2) trying to change his tune slightly

What went unsaid in his statement is the assumption - and it's certainly a correct one - that there's a lot of witnesses concealing or sitting on what they knew about the whole situation, and that the cops aren't sure they can make charges stick unless more detail comes forward. Everyone in both schools knows who did what and there's going to be a whole hell of a lot of pressure to get some of them to get off their cowardly, enabling asses and say something about it.

That said, #1 applies more. Landry's toast. He's in enough trouble with the public over the Home for Coloured Children fiasco a couple of months ago.

[redqueen]

100. Thank you for this post. nt

[TDale313]

91. So heartbreaking. n/t

[freshwest]

96. All those euphemisms only mean one thing. 'Boys will be boys. Think of their careers!'

Just loved this from the link:

“As a community, we need to have more dialogue with our young people about respect and about support to educate our young boys and our young girls about what’s appropriate behaviour, what’s not appropriate behaviour,” Landry said.

The 'educate ...our young girls' is priceless. Do I need a icon or should I just keep my mouth shut since she was 'just a girl'?



http://storify.com/chronicleherald/tears-and-a-call-for-answers-1



“Rehtaeh was a very sensitive person and very insightful. She was a critical thinker, she thought outside the box. She was always a deep thinker, she ran, always understood the plight of others. She had great compassion. That’s who Rehtaeh was,” said her mother, Leah Parsons.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2013/04/09/ns-rehtaeh-parsons-suicide-rape.html?cmp=rss

Apparently such people as Rehtaeh have no value in this world anymore.

[redqueen]

104. "Just a girl"

Those words say so much.

[TDale313]

107. ...

[seabeyond]

123. tears baby. i am just in tears. i wish... so wish, there were people to stand up for you, loudly.

we failed. each and everyone of us failed.

tears. it hurts so.

[BainsBane]

141. A girl's life cut short

It's so awful.

[smirkymonkey]

98. This is absolutely disgusting and incredibly heartbreaking.

People can be so incredibly horrible. I generally don't expect to find them here, but as this post proves, even this message board has its assholes.

[SunSeeker]

101. Thank you for posting this. nt

[IrishAyes]

108. Thanks for the alert

I signed the petition, with comments.

[Warren DeMontague]

122. Terrible story.

Perhaps Anonymous can shine some light on this situation the way they did in Steubenville.

One hopes. It sounds like the RCMP really really really mishandled this.

[840high]

125. k/r witj sadness.

[riverbendviewgal]

126. I am so ashamed because

she is Canadian raped by Canadians and her government did not do what should have bee done.


Shame on you Nova Scotia. Shame on your MP!!!!!

[chervilant]

129. So very sad...

And disgusted... I signed the petition. Hope the "authorities" do what they SHOULD HAVE DONE when this child was raped.

(While I am filled with sadness for this child and her family, I am also disappointed that the many DUers who devoted significant time and energy to "supporting" Femen protesters are not posting here, where they might express their concern and condolences...)

[one_voice]

130. This is unbelievably sad...

this poor girl was victimized repeatedly.

It breaks my heart to see stories like this.

I hold out hope that as these stories get more attention, more people begin to speak up and stop things like this from happening.

Instead of victims being shamed, the people trying to do the shaming are the ones shamed and punished for their actions.

My thoughts are with her family.

[DURHAM D]

135. This is so heartbreaking.

I hope someone is held accountable.

[Bonobo]

143. It's a terrible tragedy.

There's nothing more to say.

Dysfunctional societies create dysfunction.

[alp227]

152. Canada's Steubenville. Were her rapists football/hockey stars or something?

(Yes gridiron football is a mainstream sport in Canada and in fact there's a CFL.)

I hope Anonymous outs her rapists as they outed Amanda Todd's tormentors and the evidence that sent the Steubenville rapists to prison. from what i'm reading here even her school knew yet did nothing. so were those boys sports stars? popular kids? student government leaders? what was the school trying to hide?

[davidn3600]

169. Schools are infamous for not doing anything concerning bullying

Talk to any parent who's kid is being bullied, they've likely appealed to numerous teachers and administrations and nothing ever gets done about it. And then the school punishes the victim if they try to fight back. So it ends up being a helpless situation.

[Posteritatis]

208. I'd say it's a "public schools in general" problem

As the other response to your posts suggests, high schools have always had a lukewarm response at best to bullying. They either don't know how to deal with it, or (much more likely) they don't care. The school in question's in a traditionally troubled part of town as well - it's gotten better in recent years, but it was starting from some pretty wretched territory, and I can believe them screwing up something like this through sheer apathy and incompetence more than I could believe active policy-level protection of golden boys.

That said, some local news did catch that the high school knew about the assaults, almost certainly knew about the harassment (though they denied that), and chose not to speak to any students about it "so as not to disrupt any police investigations."

The press was treating that with precisely the respect it deserves this morning.

[IdaBriggs]

220. The problem was she didn't report it to the authorities when it happened.

It was (I believe) nearly a week later when she finally broke down crying/told her mother what had happened.

By that point any evidence (physical evidence, bloodwork, etc.) had either been washed away/healed, and it became a "he said/she said" with them saying the whole thing was consensual, and her insisting it hadn't been.

In cases like this, the school *CANNOT* play judge/jury (which student do they believe?), and they apparently stayed out of it (which furthered the unsafe situation for the victim, since this was a crime); the rapists very smugly correctly concluded there weren't going to be any consequences, the teenage girl began doing illegal drugs to cope/spiraled into depression/was tormented by her attackers, and (probably after being told she was not a credible witness due to her own drug use - sigh), etc. committed suicide shortly after a "final" decision was made not to prosecute her attackers.

This situation is similar to the idiot who reported that Pedophile Football Coach at a University to his supervisors; the correct chain of report when witnessing a crime is The Police. Reporting to any other "authority" (not licensed to investigate and prosecute) IMMEDIATELY creates a "he said/she said" situation, which frequently creates more tragedy.

In this case (in my opinion), with what they hoped was just "teenage drama" lacking any credible/verifiable evidence that a crime had actually been committed (other than 'bad judgment' by the parties involved - how do authorities not present determine consent amongst hormone ridden teenagers of similar ages?), the school chose to do nothing; the family removed the victim from the situation, but thanks to the internet/social media, the scum were able to continue to threaten/torture her, and apparently enlisted others (some of whom no doubt sincerely believed the criminals protestations of innocence/false accusation).

This is a tragedy, and there are many who will blame the victim for having put herself in a vulnerable position (unconscious fifteen year old at a party); for myself, I blame the rapists.

[Rex]

154. I am convinced

some people have no souls. None. They use other living creatures like they were tools or furniture. Able to toss aside a feeling, breathing, living person or animal like garbage in a garbage bin. Not even one shred of humanity in them.

It is simply astounding to me the evil some men do.

[BainsBane]

171. Evil and cruelty

I'm not sure how much cruelty a person needs to display until he becomes evil, but there is far too much of the in the world. I find it impossible to understand.

[smirkymonkey]

221. +1000

It amazes me too. And depresses me beyond belief. I simply cannot believe that any human being could be that callous and cruel to another.

[In_The_Wind]

157. This is horrible and sad.

[MineralMan]

172. Absolutely disgusting that this was handled so poorly.

Shameful.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

174. Other girls

I'm pretty sure that the deceased was bullied by other girls in her school. I've never known guys to "slut shame" girls.

[redqueen]

178. Why do you think her rapists took a picture and shared it? Because they thought she'd be pleased?

No, they did it to FUCKING SHAME HER.

[Posteritatis]

200. What the flaming holy fuck do you think rape is in the first place? (nt)

[IdaBriggs]

175. The RAPE VICTIM was *NOT* a SLUT - so "slut shaming" is NOT the point.

She was *CALLED* a slut to minimize the fact she was a RAPE VICTIM.

While you may want to change the meaning of the English language by saying "sluts don't exist", the word has a long history of use.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slut?s=t&path=/

SLUT? noun
1. an immoral or dissolute woman; prostitute.
2. Obsolete . a dirty, slovenly woman.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Origin:
1375–1425; late Middle English slutte; compare dial. slut mud, Norwegian (dial.) slutr sleet, impure liquid

Word story
Slut first appeared in the written language in 1402, according to the Oxford English Dictionary , that great repository of language information. At that time, slut meant roughly what one sense of slattern means today: a slovenly, untidy woman or girl. It also apparently meant “kitchen maid” (”She is a cheerful slut who keeps the pots scrubbed and the fires hot.”). By the end of the 15th century the sense “a woman given to immoral or improper conduct” had come into use, and it is the only meaning in use today. Interestingly, the same second meaning, a promiscuous woman, developed for the term slattern.

In common usage, a "SLUT" is someone whose CONSENSUAL immoral and improper actions usually involve non-community acceptable sexual activity; in this case, the victim was assaulted by "RAPISTS" (by definition non-consensual), and is therefore NOT a "SLUT" which false accusation undoubtedly contributed to her mental distress.

By accusing the VICTIM of being an immoral person or of having conducted herself improperly, the RAPISTS attempted to distract from the fact they are IMMORAL PEOPLE WHO COMMIT IMPROPER ACTIVITIES. This technique in psychology is called a "PROJECTION" and is specifically a "DEFENSE MECHANISM":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Psychological projection was first conceptualized by Sigmund Freud as a defense mechanism in which a person unconsciously rejects his or her own unacceptable attributes by ascribing them to objects or persons in the outside world instead. Thus, projection involves projecting positive or negative qualities onto others, and is a common psychological process. Theoretically, projection and the related projective identification reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted unconscious impulses or desires while the conscious mind is aware.

The theory was originally developed by Freud in his letters to Wilhelm Fliess - '"Draft H" deals with projection as a mechanism of defense' — and further refined by his daughter Anna Freud; it is sometimes referred to as Freudian projection.[4]

I am horrified by this story. I do not believe that "slut shaming" is the worst thing that happened because I believe a 15 year old girl being raped, publicly shamed, and her attackers celebrated instead of shot/jailed is the real problem, eventually being the motivation for her taking her own life is the Real Tragedy.

There is no excuse for this. NONE!

[redqueen]

177. Bullies used "s*** shaming" to viciously attack her. It IS a HUGE point.

The "real problem" is rape culture, which makes this shit so fucking common.

The "real problem" is that this rape culture results in the deaths of MANY young girls (both "pretty" ones and otherwise).

The "real problem" is that the same victim blaming and woman shaming goes on here, but people get pissed off when I attempt to discuss it because to them any attempt to discuss rape culture is somehow taken as a slight against them, personally, because for those types of people EVERY GODDAMN THING IS ABOUT THEM.

EVEN THE DISCUSSION OF THE GANG RAPE AND SUICIDE OF A YOUNG GIRL.

[IdaBriggs]

180. The POINT is that she was RAPED.

"Slut Shaming" - of which she was FALSELY ACCUSED - may have been a "secondary" problem, but *In My Opinion* the *REAL PROBLEMS* were that

1) She Was Raped.
2) EVERYONE knew she was Raped.
3) NO ONE Cared / There Was No Justice.
4) She was told SHE was responsible for her suffering.
5) She felt HELPLESS to prevent it occurring in the future.

When you tie it up with what I perceive to be NONSENSE about "slut shaming" while pretending the word doesn't even exist, or doesn't mean what it has meant for centuries, you seem to be missing the real points/sounding like a person with a specific agenda:

For you, "slut shaming" seems to be the problem, which you associate with "victim blaming" - for me, four rapists raped a girl, and she didn't feel safe because NOTHING HAPPENED TO THEM.

Our culture does not currently empower people to seek their own justice; as a civilization, we rely on police and our judicial system, which despite a record number of incarcerated citizens, does not satisfy the burning urge for justice for most crime victims, with an especial heinous record of abject failure to those who are victims of sexual crimes.

In my opinion, *this* is the real double-standard: "Trust that justice will be served/do not enact your own." When it fails, there is no sense of personal safety.

I wish she had killed the boys instead of herself. Unfortunately, that is not how we train our citizens, and odds are good these guys will commit future crimes (if they haven't already). There was no justice, the victim is dead, and the criminals roam free and are celebrated for their behavior.

As I said, "slut shaming" is the *least* of the problems this case brings up for me.

[redqueen]

182. S*** SHAMING AND VICTIM BLAMING IS WHY SHE DIDN'T COME FORWARD SOONER

IT IS WHY SHE FELT ASHAMED

IT IS WHY SHE ENDED UP DEAD

FFS

[IdaBriggs]

183. Your reasoning make no sense.

She was a crime victim.

Had she gone to the authorities as soon as it happened, the "grown-ups" would not have called her a slut. Her *peers* (whose opinion she apparently valued more than life itself, according to you) would have found out *after* her assailants were in jail. (Jail creates credibility for those who aren't privy to private details of assault.)

Instead, she decided to pretend the crime did not occur (which is very common with rape victims). She destroyed physical evidence, didn't get blood tests which would have "validated" her inability to consent, and didn't "cry out" to any adult who could have had her begin the necessary steps for a prosecution.

Her attackers, realizing there were no consequences, began to torture her BECAUSE THEY COULD.

She reported. She was told it was too late - her word against theirs - and the "evidence" was minimized.

She felt humiliated and helpless and killed herself.

NOBODY kills themselves because someone calls them a slut, especially when it isn't true. People kill themselves when they feel overwhelmed and helpless and see no change in their circumstances in the foreseeable future. This depression - also know as "anger turned inward" - was well known to her family by the point in time where she killed herself.

My view of the tragedy and the circumstances surrounding it has not changed. Your logic is NOT "logical."

[redqueen]

184. I'm sorry you don't see it. Very sorry.

But s*** shaming and victim blaming go HAND IN HAND.

And yes, it is why cops dissuade victims from pressing charges.

It is a huge part of the reason why many police departments handle this particular crime so horribly.

She felt humiliated and helpless and killed herself.

And why do you think she felt humiliated? Couldn't have been anything to do with the FUCKING S*** SHAMING, could it?

I give up.

[IdaBriggs]

186. The humiliated (in my opinion) comes from everyone knowing

that she can be assaulted with NO CONSEQUENCES.

She should have gotten justice. She didn't. Most rape victims don't.

I hate that. I don't think it has to do with "slut shaming" and "victim blaming" - we just don't know how to deal with sex crimes in our culture.

[chervilant]

213. "We don't know how to deal with sex crimes in our culture."

And, far too many of us are oddly ignorant of the history of the patriarchy and women's rights.

I strongly encourage you to read

Against Our Will (Brownmiller)

Beyond Power (French)

Ending the Silence (Thorne-Finch)

The Mermaid and the Minotaur (Dinnerstein)

For Your Own Good (Miller -- actually, anything by Miller)

Blaming the Victim (Ryan)

(This would be a good start, and will help you understand the fundamental flaws in your assertions.)

[one_voice]

190. +10000

[redqueen]

181. And FURTHERMORE

In common usage, a "SLUT" is someone whose CONSENSUAL immoral and improper actions usually involve non-community acceptable sexual activity;

No, it is a WOMAN whose NOBODYELSE'SFUCKINGBUSINESS activities anger people who would like to control women's bodies.

in this case, the victim was assaulted by "RAPISTS" (by definition non-consensual), and is therefore NOT a "SLUT" which false accusation undoubtedly contributed to her mental distress.

Women whose "CONSENSUAL immoral and improper actions usually involve non-community acceptable sexual activity" are raped too, and they aren't to blame, either, so this shit where "good" girls are differentiated from "bad" girls is NOT FUCKING HELPFUL.

A woman is drugged and rapists attack her? SHE DIDN'T DESERVE IT!

A woman gets drunk and rapists attack her? SHE DIDN'T DESERVE IT EITHER!

[IdaBriggs]

185. Your inability to comprehend the English language is bordering on frothing hysteria.

We are in agreement that NO ONE DESERVES TO BE RAPED. Why are you posting as if I disagree with that?

Consensual Sex is NOT RAPE.

Non-Consensual Sex IS RAPE.

This seems pretty obvious, and "slut-hood" (or the lack thereof) has *NOTHING* to do with this issue, so why you continue to conflate it is beyond me.



Your OPINION that the common usage definition of "SLUT" isn't REAL - despite the fact it is in the dictionary, and has been used since the 15th century - is ridiculous.

While you might believe that "NOBODYELSE'SFUCKINGBUSINESS" is the correct answer, like it or not, there are "community standards" about appropriate sexual behavior; these vary by community and social group. Generally they are "keep it private/not on the public bus" but these norms (which have been evolving/changing) still have power, but in this case they do NOT apply because she was RAPED (which is not the same thing as consensual sex).

Smart people usually choose to keep their noses out of other people's sex lives, but generally have agreements as to acceptable behavior with their partner(s). This discussion could go on longer, but since the key word is, was and always will be "CONSENSUAL" and the case we are discussing is specifically about a RAPE (by definition, non-consensual), conflating it with "slut shaming" sounds ... ignorant.

NO ONE kills themselves because someone else said something "mean" - especially when it is untrue. She wasn't a slut. She was a crime victim, and she didn't deserve it.

There really doesn't seem to be a point continuing with you because you just seem like you want to jump up and down insisting she was "slut shamed to death" which multiple years of working with rape victims and suicide prevention tells me is ludicrous.

It is a message board. You are entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it may be.

<== Attempt to restore humor because you can say the same thing back at me!

Your mileage may vary. Good luck with this thread - I don't think you are winning any converts.

[redqueen]

187. "NO ONE kills themselves because someone else said something "mean""

You really haven't been paying much attention at all, have you?

You came in here shouting and being rude, I gave it back to you. I regret that now, I should have taken the high road.

As for your insults and your laughing... all I'll say is thank you very much for showing your true colors.

[IdaBriggs]

188. My "true colors" have been on display since 2004.

Yes, I did pay attention. I also volunteered on a suicide prevention line for several years, and have worked with rape victims, so I am not ignorant of the dynamics, especially with victimized teenagers.

I stand by my statement. NO ONE kills themselves because someone else said something "mean" - there is *always* more to it than that, and feeling helpless/powerless is a part of it.

I have been paying attention. I just don't think your focus on "slut shaming" deals with the "real" issues.

If I was rude, please accept my apologies; yes, I "all capped" some stuff, but not an entire post (which you did). I think it says that this is *IMPORTANT* to both of us.

Its a discussion board - take a breath, and remember that the world is not going to end because someone (in your opinion, me) is "wrong on the internet."

Peace?

[redqueen]

189. Did I act like the world is going to end? I would like more solidarity among women.

You came in being rude, I made the mistake of joining in.

We exchanged our opinions. I'm done.

You keep on mocking, if it makes you feel good. ("someone is wrong on the internet", indeed.)


Also, FYI
http://www.bullyingstatistics.org/content/bullying-and-suicide.html

[IdaBriggs]

191. I came in disagreeing with you. I have re-read my post.

I don't think I was rude.

I am not mocking you. I am disagreeing with your reasoning, and doing you the courtesy of explaining why.

It is your option to decide whether to stubbornly "double down" and continue to repeat yourself, or conversely assume that I am NOT a complete idiot, and MAY have some valid points, which you can then use to modify your presentation/point to further your agenda, which HOPEFULLY involves making this world a safer place for everyone.

"Someone is wrong on the internet" was not supposed to be mocking. I am sorry it came across that way.

Peace and I'm done for a while.

ON EDIT: "Frothing hysteria" is Rude. I will leave it, because you correctly accused me of being rude, and deserve to be vindicated in that post. Please accept my apologies - I became enamored of my own prose, and apologize for some of the phrasing, but not the opinion (if that makes sense).

[redqueen]

193. And I apologize for going after you as I did.

I could have made my points much more calmly but I was angry at seeing some of the worst behaved people in this thread acting like innocents in another one about this same issue, and I responded to you with anger at them in mind. I am sorry.

[IdaBriggs]

194. This stuff matters to us, so we both got passionate about it.

It is all good.

Except for the burning rage that this CRAP is going on in the first place, of course. That just doesn't seem to be going away for me.

We are re-watching "Buffy" at my house; the fictionalized nature of the "power" of the protagonist to defend herself always makes me realize how "good television" really makes you think about society in a "safe" way.

The young beautiful blonde is the perfect "helpless victim" - until she kicks the butt of the Bad Guys who consider her "easy pickings!"

If only it were more true in real life - which is why it is such a painful look at society, even nearly fifteen years later.

Our most vulnerable are exactly that - vulnerable.

Argh!!!

[gollygee]

201. The article plainly says that people were calling her that

Last edited Wed Apr 10, 2013, 07:15 PM - Edit history (1)

whether or not it was true, she had people trying to shame her for supposedly being a "slut". And yeah verbal bullying does lead to suicide.

I agree the word is meaningless. It seems to mean, "Any woman someone doesn't like." It doesn't seem to actually be tied to promiscuity in use, though I know that's the definition, and even then I reject the definition as women shouldn't be held to a different standard to men, but the word "slut" is an example of one way we are.

[seabeyond]

207. i tried to find the article of a 12 yr old that committed suicide for being called a slut, and she

had never KISSED a boy yet.

12, fuckin' yr old.

this was all within the same week of amanda todd, and a 15 yr old that thru herself in front of a train. all for the same thing.

our. girls. are. dying. from mere words. words matter.

[chervilant]

214. "Smart people"?

Sexists and misogynists may be "smart people," too, but they still use pejorative terms to shame and control women.

I am dismayed that you can't seem to grasp redqueen's point, and I hope in your advocacy for rape survivors you were more sensitive to their experiences of patriarchal oppressions.

[IdaBriggs]

215. Redqueen and I arrived at a point where we

Understand and DISAGREE with each other, in what I hope is a respectful way when two people passionately believe in advocating for people dealing with these horrible circumstances.

I believe comments like yours which confuse the rights of crime victims with "patriarchy/misogyny and sexism issues" are frankly insulting to both the victim and those of us who advocate(d) for them.

She did not kill herself because of "slut shaming" - she killed herself (in my opinion) because she was in pain, felt helpless to protect herself, was told by "the system" that since she had not done what she should have done (reported instantly, not destroyed evidence, etc.) she had created a "he said/she said" situation, and she saw no way to end the pain in that moment except the way she did. ("Depression=Anger Turned Inwards&quot . Since I believe that she was raped, I am naturally enraged on her behalf; however, I find posts like yours (which seem to be twisting her tragic story to benefit your personal agenda) distasteful.

Bluntly, the word "slut" exists, has for centuries, and most literate people understand what it means. The girl in question was NOT a slut, and her sexual assault was a non-consensual act. She did not kill herself because she cared what "some people" were saying/lying about her - she killed herself because she was in pain with no end in sight, and most likely felt helpless to take action to advocate/protect herself in the future.

Our laws and law enforcement / judicial system do not know how to handle sexual issues; this girl is/was a perfect example of the ambivalence the victims themselves feel about the situation. Had she been robbed in a bank by armed strangers, she would have known that the police were available, etc. Instead, she knew who hurt her, and at a certain level, just wanted the whole thing to go away/pretend it never happened. This is also a common reaction to domestic assault. For many rape victims this "works" on a temporary basis, and sometimes it blows up badly.

It isn't about "patriarchy" because we see the same pattern with boys who are sexually assaulted: it is about safety/survival and not being expelled from your social community, or disrupting the status quo. Abandoned children have no one to take care of them, and they die - abused children rarely want to leave abusive homes or outcry because "better the devil you know" comes into play.

There is more, but I am busy. I know way more about these topics than I want to, and I will end by saying the over simplification you propose is infuriating.

[chervilant]

216. You are not in that young girl's mind.

You have no idea WHY this young woman committed suicide. You can only conjecture.

You seem smug about your knowing "way more about these topics," yet you are rejecting a fundamental socio-cultural construct which is-and has long been--damaging to both genders.

Furthermore, the age-old homily "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" exists precisely because words are damaging. Verbal attacks and verbal abuse are counted by survivors as among the worst abuses they sustained.

I have been an advocate for survivors of relationship violence for more than thirty years. I would never ignore the relevance of patriarchy, misogyny and sexism in the countless occurrences of violence against women. In fact VOCA and VAWA exist precisely because advocates for women worked hard to establish these vital pieces of legislation--despite the resistance of our patriarchal society.

Your posts, on the whole, sound arrogant and condescending. I can only hope that your advocacy has had a different tone.

[IdaBriggs]

217. Blah blah blah - talk about arrogant and condescending!

Your entire post can be summarized as follows: "POLITICAL AGENDA with Rape Victim squished into it."

The mother has clearly stated why she believes her daughter killed herself, and it starts with this: "Rehtaeh is gone today because of The four boys that thought that raping a 15yr old girl was OK" - have you actually read anything about this story? This is on the facebook page, for goodness sake!

The mother then talks about how the RAPISTS continued to torture her, which undoubtedly meant she didn't feel safe, and finishes with

Lastly, the justice system failed her.

Which meant she could be victimized again and wouldn't be safe going forward, which meant the pain was never going to get better, which meant she felt her choice was the only way to regain control....at least, these are the *typical* thought patterns of people who contemplate suicide - but not the only!

As I said in my previous post to you, this isn't just a "girl victim" thing - the same "don't tell" which caused her not to report (don't rock the boat!) happens with young males who are raped, as well as victims of domestic violence. It isn't "patriarchy, misogeny and sexism" so much as PERSONAL SURVIVAL, and since you don't understand the root cause, your actions aren't going to actually solve the problem, and therefore you will not get my support (or that of anyone else who is able to think beyond knee-jerk political agenda pushing) because you are not making logical sense.

I am clear on my position - this girl's family has every right to advocate for justice, and changes in the way our law enforcement and judicial system treat sex crimes, but the idea (which started the original post, and is why I originally responded to the thread) that she was "slut-shamed to death" is such a ridiculous concept ("she died because everyone else's opinions killed her?" - poppycock!) and so completely trivializes the pain that drives a depressed crime victim to suicide that it makes me actually respond to posts like yours, when I know you are someone with an agenda, and not a word I type will change your opinion anymore than reality changes the opinions of any other agenda convert, whether that be a religious zealot or a political one.

NOTE: If my reply is a little on the tart side, I truly hope you are able to see it as DIALOG and not verbal abuse. I *am* arrogant about my education on the topic, and I understand why you think I am condescending, since I think you are not being intellectually honest with your analysis, and my scorn for this attitude is probably "condescending" as a result.

I am going to leave the discussion with the assumption that you truly care about victims of these types of crimes, even if I find your efforts to "educate" the rest of us to be completely self-serving. May I suggest that since the technique you are currently using is so much more effective at turning potential allies to your cause AWAY that maybe you might want to find a different one?

Then again, if you do take responsibility for your own failure to communicate/recruit, you won't be able to think of yourself as "special" because you are the "only one(s) who UNDERSTAND" while the rest of us are just blithering idiots, so not sure if you really want more people in your "special club of victims of patriarchy, misogyny and sexism" (which needs to happen, if you actually want to change what you think is a problem).

Good luck.

[chervilant]

218. "...a little on the tart side..."

Besides your penchant for understatement, you seem wholly invested in detailing your position and denying the relevance of the socio-political environment within which these crimes transpire. So much energy expended to repeat your verbiage ad nauseum--why are you so derisive and dismissive about the relevance of patriarchy and misogyny in these crimes against women?

Please, don't bother to repeat yourself. I find you boorish and insulting, and I won't waste my time reading a rehash of your drivel.

[IdaBriggs]

219. Yeah! We have achieved mutual understanding!

Although I think "intellectually dishonest" is the best description of you, I will *happily* embrace "boorish and insulting" from you as one can best be judged by those who are friends - and those who are not.

Let me finish by using the classic: "Neener, neener!" and of course, "I'm rubber, you are glue!"



Someday our biographers will read this witty exchange, and question why we spent so much time on it. I suggest the title of the book be --

"QUICK! Drop Everything! Someone on the Internet is WRONG!"



Peace.

[Rex]

209. I kinda wondered why the OP wanted people to know

what terms she would not be using for the victim, since they did no apply at all. VICTIM BLAMING...yes absolutely.

Redqueen, sometimes you do not need to make a point to make another point.

[redqueen]

210. Because those are the terms people are using to describe what happened to this girl.

She was s***-shamed. She was bullied to death with it.

Whether you think the term applies or not, that is how she was attacked. As a s***. Mercilessly.

And please note, that when people say that 'But the term did not even apply to her!' they are agreeing by default that the word does apply to some women, which is something I disagree with so very strongly - this is a very important point.

[get the red out]

179. I am glad I don't have kids

Because if I were the mother of a daughter that something like this happened to I would be on death row before I was done.

Is it going to come to that? Where families start taking matters into their own hands to end the harrassment one way or another? I can see it happening, I can't be the only derranged person walking around getting thoughts like this. It is starting to appear that there may be no official justice with these evil, child rapist pieces of crap and their young cheerleaders.

I think the boys ought to be charged with murder as well as rape at this point and never see beyond the grounds of a prison for the rest of their lives.

[IdaBriggs]

192. So with you. nt

[Zorra]

195. The all pervasive objectification and sexualization of girls/women is primary to creating

this culture where far too many boys are insidiously influenced to deny/ignore the humanity of girls/women and treat them as "things", mere objects of scorn that exist solely for their personal physical gratification.

This horrible, heartbreaking incident is a clear illustration of the tragic effects of the rampant sexualization/objectification of girls/women, and the rape culture it fosters and perpetuates.

Sex sells, it's a major source of profit for global corporate business, and greedy corporate sociopaths will continue to market girls/women as sex objects for as long as it remains profitable, and the ignorant will continue to buy it, no matter what the resulting cost and consequence in human degradation, suffering, and tragedy.

Poor Rehtaeh. She was not only viciously raped and abused by four young boys, she was subsequently slowly tortured and murdered by this culture for the "crime" of being born female.

[redqueen]

196. Thank you for this post, Zorra. So much.

This is a very important aspect which I was afraid to bring up.

[Zorra]

197. You're welcome, redqueen.

I'm hoping more folks will connect the dots and start thinking about the correlation between sexualization/objectification and abuse/rape.

[Dr. Strange]

198. Nova Scotia justice minister revisits review of Rehtaeh Parsons case

http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/nova-scotia-justice-minister-revisits-review-of-rehtaeh-parsons-case-1.1231332

A move in the right direction (finally!), but I'm hoping Anonymous is on standby. Just in case.

[BainsBane]

199. if they'd done so earlier

She might still be alive.

[Judi Lynn]

202. Thank you. n/t

[Posteritatis]

205. Love the sweet sweet sound of that hundred-metre freestyle backpedal.

This is the second time an investigation like that has blown up in that idiot's face. Maybe the hint will sink in this time.

[redqueen]

211. I can't help wondering if the growing exposure, and

the resulting threat of Anonymous's possible involvement, is what motivated them to reconsider their refusal to investigate the handling of her case.

[Posteritatis]

212. The minister made a similar stupid mistake a few months ago

He blocked the idea of an official investigation into abuse at a foster home for black kids that had a really, ah, horrific reputation while it was in operation. (It closed about 15 years ago, and the survivors have been getting louder about what happened since.) That really, really, really upset people around here; the fact that he's doing the same thing about a much more immediate event especially infuriated everyone around here.

Even if the province was in an isolated bubble, the size of the "are you fucking kidding me?" chorus would probably have knocked him into reconsidering things. The fact that he's turning the province into an international punchline helps, of course.

[Judi Lynn]

203. Thank you, redqueen. Didn't hear about this until now. So damned wrong. n/t

[smirkymonkey]

222. Ugh! This makes me physically ill. I am sick to my stomach after reading this.

I am so in despair after reading how often this happens and how often the perpetrators get away with it. I just cannot believe it.