General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI haven't been able to shake the feeling I got when my daughter said "I think men are smarter than
women." To be honest it floored me. I thought I had set a good example etc.... It literally knocked me over, now I'm in a hurried search for biographies on bright and powerful women and books on the topic of female strengths and intelligence. I know that the current system of profit, money and power is not the best for women to operate in in order to show their best sides as capitalism only sees men and women as commodities and men win there because they make less risky employees (for many profit at any cost reasons).
DUers please send me your most pertinent information so I can help my daughter see how women are very intelligent and wise. She sees so many girls doing dumb girl stuff and I'm not sure what men she sees but obviously not as dumb as the girls.
Do girls try too hard? What's with the ridiculous shoes? Do women really like them or do they feel the need to be stylish according to the dictates of industry? Nail polish and toes done, push up bras and face paint. Does this all add up to females trying to please in a consumer world that takes away from the natural beauty and strengths of both men and women?
polly7
(20,582 posts)TimberValley
(318 posts)It is possible - I don't know of scientific data or such - but it is possible that men might have a very slightly higher IQ than women, just like it is possible that women might have a slightly higher IQ than men, or that both might be exactly the same.
Again, all I am saying is "possible" and "might." I would advise not to discount any possibilities on intelligence.
Before rushing to correct a misconception, one should find out whether it is actually indeed a misconception or not.
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)Toss in the usual box of salt about how well IQ tests do/don't correlate to anything meaningful.
petronius
(26,602 posts)was that in almost every class the top student would be male, but 6-8 of the top 10 would be women. I'm in a smaller department in a different state now, and the majority of our stand-out students for the past 4-5 years have been women...
starroute
(12,977 posts)The general agreement among the women in my dorm was that even at our elite college, the men tended to be at the extremes. Some were absolutely brilliant, some were flunking out. And meanwhile, the women attended the lectures, took good notes, studied for the exams, and got top grades -- but they didn't show that extra flash of genius.
But that was in the 1960s, and as you suggest, things may have changed. Certainly when you look at the progressive blogosphere, women seem to be overrepresented among those doing in-depth research, probing analysis, and acute commentary.
I forget the technical term for it, but years ago I read about how in the Indian caste system, women were expected to marry up -- which made it very difficult for high-caste Brahman women to find acceptable spouses. The suggestion was that a more informal version of the same expectation also prevents women in our culture from being willing to outdo the men. And that could certainly explain a lot.
alp227
(32,020 posts)raccoon
(31,110 posts)I think to a degree that is still true.
I know when I grew up (I'm a boomer), young women expected to marry up. We got the unspoken message that we were to find some rich, professional man. (By the way, never happened for me, nor for many others. )
IMO and IME, the more educated a woman is, the less likely she is to get married.
I know there are exceptions, but on average, it's been largely true most of my lifetime.
Never heard the term "hypergamy"; glad you mentioned it.
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)As individuals we excel in certain areas. I have strong verbal and analytical skills but am much weaker in mathematical and spacial ability. Some people excel in creativity and others in emotional intelligence. There are many types of intelligence, all of which contribute to society in different ways.
rainy
(6,091 posts)for the first time in history are passing men in IQ test scores according to research reported in 2012. Women are also getting more spots in ivy league colleges.
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)They have individual scores. And there is a lot of controversy over IQ scores and how much they are influenced by one's environment-or indeed, how valid a tool IQ is.
What are the implications for saying that an entire group of people is smarter than another group of people?
rainy
(6,091 posts)that's why I was not happy that she thinks that. it shows in her self esteem.
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)Yes, teach your daughters that they really aren't as smart as men.
Does any woman here actually find that to be the case?
Then there is the absurd assumption that IQ tests accurately depict intelligence, when they are known to be classist, racist, and sexist.
Beacool
(30,247 posts)Response to TimberValley (Reply #2)
Squinch This message was self-deleted by its author.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)Social Security for all of our retirement funds.
I'd say someone has an agenda this morning.
In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)[img][/img]
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)I tell her mostly every day the following:
Dream Big
Work Hard
Don't let anyone tell you that you can't do something when you know you can.
Be responsible for your own actions
Finish high school
Go to college and get a degree to depend upon yourself just in case you never get married or
want to get married.
Don't have a baby til after you finish college, then if you want find the right man wait 2 yrs then have a baby. But don't have a baby if you don't want one.
No one can make you happy but yourself. Don't depend on a man to do that.
I know she is young but you have to start young. I don't want my granddaughter to end up like her mother, her aunt and grandma on her mother's side and great grandmother on her mothers side. I don't come from that kind of a background. I try to tell her over and over that my little sister (her aunt) went to college and became a dentist because she worked hard and dreamt big. Now her twin daughter and going to dental school. I told her she can be anything she wants to be as long as she works hard. She has to have your support and the rest of the families support. Then she will be fine. It's up to us.
Victor_c3
(3,557 posts)My youngest is 2 years old and I don't think she has any concept of that yet, but my 4 year old does.
I stress over and over again to her how important school is. Whenever she tells me she wants to grow up to be an artist or a scientists or a truck driver I always have the same answer for her - "I'd be so proud of you!". So long as it was her choice and she was legitimately happy doing it, I'd be proud of her doing anything that she wants.
My newest thing is to stress to her never to be afraid of being wrong or making mistakes. You have try and make mistakes in order to learn things. My oldest daughter has a perfectionist streak in her which can be good and bad. It's heartbreaking to see her get so mad and frustrated because she can't draw a perfect circle or write a perfect looking lower case 'k' or whatever. However, she has a die-hard worth ethic and is always detail oriented. I hope that she can reach a happy balance in this aspect.
Like what you say, I also always stress how I will always love and support both of my daughters. I think it is a very important for them to know that they can pursue whatever life they want to pursue and to know that they'll always be loved and accepted.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)a dentist. But I would remember when she would study for tests and how she would cry if she got a grade she felt was wrong and would go and talk with the professor. She would take turns in calling each one of my sisters crying that she got a "B". I would think that is great. But she was such a perfectionist. She got selected to work in a hospital doing surgerys. While doing that she found out that she was pregnant with twins and one of them had water on the brain. But she was so much of a perfectionist that she had to be there constantly because she didn't want to let the others down. She was the first woman picked. So she felt the added pressure. She only had to do it for a year. But what pressure she was under. Sometimes she ended up in hospital. Well in the end she did have her babies and now the baby with the water on the brain graduated and will be teaching and the other twin will be a dentist next year. But again it was us siblings that made sure she went to college and made something of herself. Funny thing had my father not died when she was 11 and I was 22 she may never had gone to college because daddy thought girls were suppose to be wives. I don't blame him because he grew up in the time. Now its different.
Balance is so important. I like what you said and I am going to tell her that failure is a learning experience and it is ok as long as you learned from it. But then again no matter how much we try and teach them we hope and pray it sinks in.
mainer
(12,022 posts)My older son (who is pretty damn brilliant, and I'm so proud of him) once told me -- while he was in high school -- that he thought girls were much smarter than boys.
I don't think it has to do with what you, her parent, may have done. It has more to do with the milieu in which she's immersed at the moment, and the males and females of her immediate acquaintance. Clearly she needs to associate with more female achievers.
rainy
(6,091 posts)her boyfriend at the time is now doing research at UVA and she still thinks he's the smartest man in the world
TimberValley
(318 posts)Doubt it.
rainy
(6,091 posts)men are just a little stronger than women and women are just a little smarter than men
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)Madame Curie
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0036126/?ref_=sr_1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madame_Curie
Blossoms in the Dust
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0033407/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
Edna Gladney: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edna_Gladney
Sister Kenny
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038948/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
Elizabeth Kenney: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Kenny
bettyellen
(47,209 posts).... interests and dreams.
there is a period in the boy girl thing where they are a bit much with the competitiveness and put downs. (some never out grow this impulse!) it is not a great thing to broadbrush like this and also concern yourself so much with fitting into what she "should" be. Encourage her to study what she loves, and to listen to her own voice above all others, and she will be fine.
dawg
(10,624 posts)when you are still young and haven't yet figured out that they are just as shallow, petty, and dumb as the members of your own gender.
Dyedinthewoolliberal
(15,574 posts)winter is coming
(11,785 posts)First, some women apparently really like "fashionable" shoes and clothing. Don't ask me why; I'm one of those women who prefer comfortable shoes and clothing with usable pockets. I like well-made garments and attractive colors, but don't spend a lot of time worrying about what's "in" this year: I don't like shopping very much, so I'd rather wear something less extreme that I can enjoy for years, and I don't have a need/desire for the latest popular thing.
Second, instead of worrying about whether your daughter sees other women as intelligent, I'd be more concerned about whether your daughter sees herself as intelligent. Maybe she's Einstein. Maybe she's not. As long as she appreciates herself for whatever she is and doesn't assume that she isn't intelligent simply because she's female, you're doing okay.
Third, how old is your daughter? If she's a tween, or even a teen, a lot of girls seem to clump together around the things they think they're supposed to care about. There's a lot of social messages about what girls are "supposed" to be interested in. That doesn't mean your daughter has to care about them and it doesn't mean the other girls are stupid. I've known some very intelligent women who were into the shoes/hair/makeup thing. Women, like men, are individuals.
rainy
(6,091 posts)My daughter is 22 and she studied hard at UVA in the nursing program and now works at Duke hospital. I think she sees too many women not in the "smarter" positions in the hospital. I could be wrong but we didn't go into depth about her thoughts. We were going somewhere and just let it drop after a few comments.
starroute
(12,977 posts)I remember once being at a party where for some reason all the women were in the kitchen talking about contact lenses and all the men were in the living room talking about world politics. It doesn't mean the guys were smarter, because they certainly weren't. But women do tend to discuss personal and emotional issues to an extent that men don't -- and especially if you're a woman who finds that sort of thing silly and trivial, you might well conclude that men are more intelligent, just because their discussions seem more intellectual.
Response to rainy (Reply #21)
nenagh This message was self-deleted by its author.
demmiblue
(36,846 posts)niyad
(113,293 posts)where we try to have a daily herstory of women's actions and achievements, and daily biographies of some truly amazing women, as does the history of feminism, also under gender and orientation.
You might also direct her to the national women's history project: www.nwhp.org, and their biography section http://www.nwhp.org/resourcecenter/biographycenter.php, as well as all the other amazing resources at the site. She could also read Dale Spender's book "women of ideas" (actually ALL of dale spender's books).
Those are just a couple of suggestions. I know others will have many more, extremely valuable suggestions.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)What are your daughter's favorite subjects? How old is your daughter? I would say try to find some intelligent role models in the subjects that your daughter is interested in and try to find some that your daughter might have heard of. I like reading about female scientists like Emile du Chatelet or Marie Curie. A lot of young girls like to hear about famous people who have been in the news or on tv so you could mention women like Sally Ride or Danica McKellar, or Michelle Obama. Emma Watson is going back to college to finish her degree. Young girls love Hermione.
rainy
(6,091 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)As do Bob, Brent and Jerry.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)RainDog
(28,784 posts)...a French mathematician, physicist, and author during the Age of Enlightenment. Her crowning achievement is considered to be her translation and commentary on Isaac Newton's work Principia Mathematica. The translation, published ten years after her death in 1759, is still considered the standard French translation.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)1983 Nobel Laureate in Physiology or Medicine, was an American scientist and one of the world's most distinguished cytogeneticists. McClintock received her PhD in botany from Cornell University in 1927. There, she started her career as the leader in the development of maize cytogenetics, the focus of her research for the rest of her life. From the late 1920s, McClintock studied chromosomes and how they change during reproduction in maize. Her work was groundbreaking; she developed the technique for visualizing maize chromosomes and used microscopic analysis to demonstrate many fundamental genetic ideas. One of those ideas was the notion of genetic recombination by crossing-over during meiosisa mechanism by which chromosomes exchange information. She produced the first genetic map for maize, linking regions of the chromosome to physical traits, and demonstrated the role of the telomere and centromere, regions of the chromosome that are important in the conservation of genetic information. She was recognized among the best in the field, awarded prestigious fellowships, and elected a member of the National Academy of Sciences in 1944.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_McClintock
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)(Without needing to get into details about standardized testing, IQ tests, the meaning of intelligence, etc.)
If men are smarter, how come so many more women graduate from college every year?
RainDog
(28,784 posts)She was awarded the 2009 Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel, which she shared with Oliver E. Williamson, for "her analysis of economic governance, especially the commons". She was the first, and to date, the only woman to win the prize in this category. Her work was associated with the new institutional economics and the resurgence of political economy.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Growing up I remember seeing a lot of stupid boys, too. Much of what they were into seemed ridiculously inane to me.
The bottom line is, the lowest common denominator stuff is pretty low valence; it's tough for anyone who is smart, quirky, and different. The trick is to get em to embrace their differentness and roll with it, instead of feeling bad about it and trying to quash it.
I say this because I did the latter for many years and it didn't help me in life.
I have a younger relative who grew up much as I did, but was encouraged to do the former and he's already well on his way to being hugely successful with it.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)an American biologist and University Professor in the Department of Geosciences at the University of Massachusetts Amherst.[1][3] She is best known for her theory on the origin of eukaryotic organelles, and her contributions to the endosymbiotic theory, which is now generally accepted for how certain organelles were formed. She showed that animals, plants, and fungi all originated from protists. She is also associated with the Gaia hypothesis, based on an idea developed by the English environmental scientist James Lovelock.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynn_Margulis
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)She combined deep insight and imagination with rigorous science.
A true hero of incredible brilliance.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)Last edited Sun Apr 7, 2013, 05:00 PM - Edit history (1)
"I greatly admire Lynn Margulis's sheer courage and stamina in sticking by the endosymbiosis theory, and carrying it through from being an unorthodoxy to an orthodoxy. I'm referring to the theory that the eukaryotic cell is a symbiotic union of primitive prokaryotic cells. This is one of the great achievements of twentieth-century evolutionary biology, and I greatly admire her for it."
She was one of the most important voices to talk about the cultural baggage that scientists bring into the laboratory and how this impedes the ability to see other factors at work.
Long ago, when I was working on a project about the cultural baggage that men carried into science (who dominated the sciences because of the amount of time and energy needed to pursue such work and b/c of the cultural inhibition of women in such fields in general), she was someone who offered another pov. It was refreshing. I don't necessarily agree with her on every issue, etc. (not talking about science) but she was definitely a voice that deserved a wider hearing. I wish she had done more popular writing, like her ex. did.
Two other women that I think should be acknowledged more widely were part of research teams that discovered mitochondrial DNA - Margit M. K. Nass and Sylvan Nass and Ellen Haslbrunner, Hans Tuppy and Gottfried Schatz.
The discovery of mDNA has had repercussions in all areas of plant and animal biology, and helped to study early human evolution, too. mDNA also fits into the idea of symbiosis at the level of cell energy - and is a finding of a unique female attribution to genetic inheritance in all humans.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)The endosymbiotic theory is one of the most mind-blowing breakthroughs I have ever considered.
The concept of symbiosis and its implications for evolutionary theory in general was truly world-shaking.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)has moved away from the "captains of industry/social dawinism" view of life in general.
Me - I know I have a cultural bias to favor the idea of "balance" i.e. sometimes competing, sometimes cooperating entities in life - even tho I was taught, for so much of life, that "dominance" was what all life was about.
but it's clear that this isn't the case because of the web of life and the interdependence of species.
If I had to have a religion, I would probably worship trees for all the wonderful things they bring to existence... and who knows, they may even be our saviors - if only we were planting more of them and cutting down fewer of them.
Trees create chemical compounds that seed clouds to cool the earth.
Those same compounds may have life-saving applications in a lot of different ways - they're found in all plants.
(I've been reading about such things for something I'm working on... and the truth is that getting sidetracked into interesting topics is part of the fun of anything, at least imo.)
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Being unable to move, trees and plants have created powerful means to control the environment around them through chemical means.
Even the relationship between plants and animals, such as the secretions of trees to manipulate ants so that they "protect" the trees, etc. is so amazing. Endlessly amazing to me.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)It would be an interesting thought exercise to look at our lives from the view of other organisms who benefit from various actions.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)JI7
(89,249 posts)mercymechap
(579 posts)whose braggadocio dad told him that boys were smarter than girls.
treestar
(82,383 posts)It's hard to believe their purpose is just style.
I'd show her examples of strong women who don't wear shoes like that, say Hillary Clinton, etc.
And teach her about the Chinese foot binding, since it is such a clear example. There, the misogynists let us see their hand they were holding. The whole idea is make sure women are weaker. And think they need to be weaker to be sexually attractive.
We all want to be sexually attractive, guess which sex it is harder for? Make up, shoes, hair, all of it, the idea is to make it take longer for us.
Mnemosyne
(21,363 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)asked here where she got that idea..
she replies-
Boys are just yucky
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould. I have two main reasons for suggesting this book in this case, even though it is written by a man ( ):
1 - it discusses the history of the IQ test, which was originally meant to assess those who need more help learning, rather than as a test of one's raw mental capabilities. It also discusses the fact that women actually did better on the early IQ tests. The solution they came up with was to change the tests.
2 - it discusses the concept of "reification", that is, our tendency to accept something as real merely because it has been measured. One might, for example, measure the correlation between the length of the index finger and intelligence. Now there is no reason to believe there is a causal relationship there; however, merely making the measurement and presenting it with charts and words, tends to plant it in people's minds as something "real".
In general Gould has many great discussions of these topics, so if she is inclined to delve into logical exploration of this sort it would be time well spent.
A quick Google search for "female polymaths" and "female geniuses" came up with many, many results, some of which are:
Great smart women in history: Ada Lovelace, after whom the programming language Ada was named, has been called the first programmer. Marie Curie, who discovered radium, and who won two Nobel Prizes. Dr. Grace Murry Hopper, credited with inventing the compiler (a program that translates high-level code into machine language); she also coined the term "bug" for a computer defect after discovering a moth had caused a vacuum tube to stop working in an early computer. Emmy Noether, a mathematician who discovered Noether's Theorem in physics: every symmetry gives rise to a conservation law. Hedy Lamarr, most famous as a beautiful actress, collaborated with another person to create a "Secret Communications System" expressly constructed to assist in the defeat of Hitler; they received a patent for this in 1942 and gave it to the U.S. Government.
Women who were considered to be polymaths include: Hypatia, who lived in Alexandria in the 4th century, is known as the first notable female mathematician, and also taught astronomy and philosophy; Hildegard of Bingen, a Benedictine abbess who lived in the 12th century; Maria Gaetana Agnesi, an Italian professor in the 18th century was known as a linguist, geometer, theology, logician, algebraist, mathematician and philosopher.
Joan of Arc, a great military strategist and leader, led the French army to victory at Orleans in nine days after she was sent there by King Charles VII. She is the only one in history, male or female, to command the entire army of a nation when she was only 17.
And if we must go back to IQ as a measurement then let us not forget that Marilyn vos Savant; she had the highest recorded IQ of anybody, male or female, for 40 years (measured at 228).
Women historically have been barred from a full education; they had to deal with childbirth and child rearing and being treated as inferior and said to be of inferior intelligence.
Okay enough of the historical stuff. If she doesn't see men acting as stupid as women, get her to watch some of the current so-called comedies over the last 10 years or so. I am floored that she thinks women act more stupid than men do. No one has a corner on that market.
alp227
(32,020 posts)See this 2011 article by the NYT:
But now physical anthropologists at the University of Pennsylvania, which owns Mortons collection, have remeasured the skulls, and in an article that does little to burnish Dr. Goulds reputation as a scholar, they conclude that almost every detail of his analysis is wrong.
see also Wikipedia's collection of criticisms
LuvNewcastle
(16,844 posts)in any of the Jackass movies. That should tell you something right there. Women tend to be crazy characters in comedies, but not exactly stupid. Victoria Jackson is an exception, but we all know about her.
I've never understood why women have been considered to be less intelligent than men. When I was in school, I usually preferred hanging out with the girls. They didn't talk about sports all the time and were generally wittier. Most of my friends these days are guys, but that's because women my age tend to be married and/or have kids. I'm not particularly interested in hearing about kids and domestic life. But the single women I know are smart and are a lot of fun.
rainy
(6,091 posts)appreciate all your imput. Raindog I'm going to send her each one of your posts, thanks everyone.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)one more...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosalind_Franklin
Franklin is best known for her work on the X-ray diffraction images of DNA which led to the discovery of DNA double helix. Her data, according to Francis Crick, were "the data we actually used"[3] to formulate Crick and Watson's 1953 hypothesis regarding the structure of DNA.[4] Franklin's images of X-ray diffraction confirming the helical structure of DNA were shown to Watson without her approval or knowledge. Though this image and her accurate interpretation of the data provided valuable insight into the DNA structure, Franklin's scientific contributions to the discovery of the double helix are often overlooked[citation needed]. Unpublished drafts of her papers (written just as she was arranging to leave King's College London) show that she had independently determined the overall B-form of the DNA helix and the location of the phosphate groups on the outside of the structure. Moreover, Franklin personally told Crick and Watson that the backbones had to be on the outside, which was crucial since before this both they and Linus Pauling had independently generated non-illuminating models with the chains inside and the bases pointing outwards.[5] However, her work was published third, in the series of three DNA Nature articles, led by the paper of Watson and Crick which only hinted at her contribution to their hypothesis.
...and just to say - it sounds like she's bored by quite a few people she knows. A lot of people are happy to skip along the surface of life - and we can each decide how much time and energy we want to put into that sort of thing.
tell her others think she must have something going on to be concerned about the general dumbing down of too much of life... so she would do others a great favor to find something that's interesting to her and get involved in that subject, whatever it is.
she'll meet people who are more interesting to her, do something that challenges her, and not have to look to any one other person to provide her with the intellectual stimulation she needs.
...and congrats on raising a daughter who has a mind of her own!
RainDog
(28,784 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)You don't think smart women have mousy brown hair, thick glasses, wear old lady shoes, and no makeup, do you? Take a look at this list of sexy, beautiful women who fuss with shoes and nail polish and fashion, but are also smart. Intelligence has nothing to do with what you wear:
Judy Holliday - sexy actress. Mensa member.
Asia Carrera - porn star. High IQ.
Geena Davis - sexy movie star. High IQ.
Natalie Portman - sexy movie star. Psych degree from Harvard.
Jodi Foster - movie star. Yale degree.
Maggie Gyllenhaal - actress. Degree in Eastern Religion & lit from Columbia.
Rachel Weisz - actress. Degree from Cambridge.
Rashida Jones - Harvard grad.
Jennifer Beals - Actress. Yale grad.
Alicia Keys - musician. Graduated at age 16 as valedictorian from Performing Arts School, Manhatten.
Emma Thompson - actress, writer. Cambridge grad. Oscar for screenwriting.
Nora Efron - writer.
Sharon Stone - actress. High IQ.
Kate Beckinsale - actress. Oxford.
Jennifer Connelly - actress. Yale/Stanford.
Elizabeth Shue - Harvard grad.
(the list goes on and on, if you search for it)
Then there are stat studies:
Over the last 100 years, everyone in the developing world has been gaining about three IQ points, but women have been gaining faster, Flynn told ABC News. This is the result of modernity. In every country where women have an equal chance of modernity, women have caught men [in IQ testing].
Flynn has not yet published the results of his study, saving that for a book he will publish in September. But he told ABC News that he collected data from Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Estonia and Argentina on scores on a standard IQ test, called the Raven test. Each country tested at least 500 men and 500 women, most between the ages of 15 and 18, Flynn said.
In all of those samples, women are the equal of men, perhaps scoring a half point or a point higher, Flynn said.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2012/07/16/women-beat-men-on-iq-tests-for-first-time/
Finally, I would point out to her that in the end, it matters more what you DO with what intelligence you have, than what intelligence you were born with, assuming you have at least average intelligence. There are many highly intelligent people who don't reach their fulfillment level for various reasons...they don't want to study, or work too hard, or spend years in school, or whatever. There are also many people of average intelligence who rose to the height in their chosen profession because of hard work and determination.
Also, men's and women's brains are proportionately the same size, compared to their body size.
Finally, if the goal in life is to be happy, what matters most is to find what you want to do with your life, do it to your best ability, reach your potential, and have a balanced life that is financially secure and filled with love. A higher IQ doesn't necessarily equate with more happiness (although having sufficient intelligence helps a lot, so that you are better equipped to provide for yourself, have a choice of vocations and professions, etc.).
But it's okay to have wild nail polish AND be smart, too!
Butterbean
(1,014 posts)I'm not a moron or a fluff brain. I wear makeup sometimes because I like to put it on. *shrug* Judging women for wearing makeup and nail polish is just as bad as judging them for not wearing it. Personal appearance is not tied to IQ. To each her own, variety is the spice of life, and all that.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)I was pointing out to the OP just what you said. Wearing wild nail polish or being fashion oriented has nothing to do with intelligence. So my list of sexy and interesting women, all of whom dress high fashion iwth lots of makeup, and have oodles of brains with a work ethic.
Butterbean
(1,014 posts)personal example.
mercymechap
(579 posts)nolabear
(41,960 posts)Yes, Max is a she. Her website (I'm sorry but the name escapes me) is a trove of fascinating info.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)I have never understood the ridiculous shoes, the jewelry, the face paint, the silly nails, the push up stuff - and all the while these gals get upset if you don't take them "seriously"....nope, I admit I do NOT get it
Response to rainy (Original post)
nenagh This message was self-deleted by its author.
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)daughter why she thinks men are smarter than women. Ask it as a question, not a statement. And then listen calmly to what she says without passing judgment on the validity of each statement.
Beacool
(30,247 posts)What happened for her to feel that she's not as bright as men? I was raised by a fierce mother who would have told your daughter that the contrary is true. LOL!!!
I don't think that intelligence is gender based. There are very smart and very dumb people of both genders.
There are so many bright women in history and currently. There's a trove of biographies to choose from.
When I saw "The Help" I memorized Abilene's words to every child she cared for: You is kind. You is smart. You is important. What a great lesson to impart to every child, they are important, they have value, they are smart.
Response to rainy (Original post)
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savebigbird
(417 posts)I am shocked to read the age of your daughter! I am also very concerned about some of the responses here!
Something that I am quite interested in is Howard Gardner's multiple intelligences, and the view that intelligence is not a singular talent, but rather can be subdivided into separate categories. She might want to read about that.
In stark contrast to that view, the Binet IQ test, which I am assuming has been referenced multiple times within this very thread, measures a much more singular quality, and has been criticized as being biased based on gender, culture, and socioeconomic status. Plus, I highly doubt the numbers of females versus males having the teat administered to them have been comparable over the course of the past hundred years.
Is it that your daughter truly believes that all men, on average, are smarter than women, or are the men she interacts with at work in positions of greater power and influence with greater frequency? Perhaps networking with other female professionals might do some good.
Plus, high heeled shoes are marketed to females starting when they're little girls. A lot of them eventually succumb to the pressure of wearing uncomfortable shoes and clothing because they tend to be treated better because they wear them. That doesn't make females unintelligent - it's a reflection of our culture.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Or rather, you will not find an answer that will satisfy her. Whatever gave rise to her belief, it won't be answered quickly by a blog or an anecdote.
Everyone finds their own truth about how they measure themselves to others, and it generally comes from their personal experiences. If they've seen brilliant men promoted, they'll assume as your daughter does. If they've seen brilliant women promoted, perhaps they'll assume the opposite. Or maybe they'll adhere to the belief that every group is equal.
Truth is obscured when intelligence is quantified through testing because people extrapolate meanings in these measures that don't exist. I suspect the nail polish is just competitive instincts in women that are so strong they can become unhealthy. That doesn't necessarily mean they're less intelligent. I've heard this lack of intelligence stereotype applied to men as the "dumb jock", with no evidence to suggest that athletes are any less intelligent on average.
I think your daughter's truth can only be found from experience, and perhaps introspection to examine why she believes this. Instead of beginning by overwhelming her with stats and anecdotes, start first by asking her, "what is intelligence?" Her beliefs must be fully understood before attempting to change them.
alp227
(32,020 posts)Great book that debunks the theory of gendered brain development as nature and suggest that gender roles and stereotypes are more because of nurture. Washington Post review. Best suggestion I have so you can challenge your daughter's misguided beliefs.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)Victor_c3
(3,557 posts)I work in a small lab with another woman who is a chemist and my boss who is a woman and a trained chemist too. I sarcastically remind them that chemistry is man's work. To emphasize that point, I ask them to name all of the famous chemist they could think of. The only one any of us can come up with off the top of our heads is Marie Curie. So that kind of squashes my point. All of the other names of famous scientist people can come up with are usually physicists or biologists. After my "chemistry is man work" comment I usually end up cleaning glassware in the back
Anyways, Marie Curie not only was the first woman to receive a Nobel prize in science, but she was the first person to receive two Nobel prizes in different fields. She is most famous for her work on discovering radiation and was undoubtedly brilliant.
As was mentioned in a post above mine, I believe the only way to squash your daughter's sentiment that men are smarter than women is to challenge her. I don't know how old she is, but with a little bit of encouragement and direction you could turn this into a feminist spark for her. The only reason that men dominate so many fields is because society and culture both consciously and unconsciously perpetuates that. Illustrate that point to her and maybe explore some feminist theory with her and maybe she'll see things differently.
It is a struggle for women and it isn't fair that girls and women should regret not being born with a penis. I have two daughters myself and I'd hate for them to think that they could never be as smart or as good at anything as a man can be. I truly understand how you feel after hearing a comment like that from your daughter.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)I was basically slacking off and blaming on "girls aren't as good at math as boys are". My dad called my bluff and made me study harder. Of course, it worked. I was very good at math if I applied myself. I just bought in to sexist notions that girls were not good at it.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)Yes, it's entirely true that on most measures of mental abilities, men score higher than women *on average*.
So the statement "on average, men are smarter than women", while clumsy, is closer to being true than it is to being false.
But the intersex variation is tiny compared to the intrasex variation - on most tests, the difference in average will only be a few points, whereas the standard deviation for ... no, I'm realising as I type that this is probably pitching it too high for a child, isn't it.
What's a simpler, clearer way of explaining this... hmm.
I'm slightly embarrassed by how hard I'm finding it to come up with ways of discussing the issue without using words like "correlate" and "distribution". If your daughter is mathematically-minded, that's clearly the best way to do it, but if she isn't it's a bit harder.
"Sort of, but not really, and not by much. When you say "men are smarter than women", what you're literally saying is that "all men are smarter than all women - there is not one, woman, anywhere, who is as smart as any man". And that's obviously not true. It's true that, on average, men are very slightly smarter* than women, but there are lots of very smart women too."
Better yet, have a discussion about "thinking about things mathematically" with her before you have one about gender issues - being able to think in terms of correlations rather than absolutes makes it much easier to understand all sorts of things.
*I'm not even touching on the fact that intelligence isn't a single quality - there are lots of different things people use their minds to do, and while being good at those different things is usually strongly-correlated, the correlation isn't perfect. But there's an entire different discussion you could have with her about different kinds of "smartness" and lots of different ways of testing/measuring them, almost certainly including some in which women test higher on average than men.
dkf
(37,305 posts)If she thinks her friends are frivolous, maybe she is right. I'll bet she isn't focusing on intelligence so much as her personal opinion of their behavior.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)There are a multitude of brilliant women at UVA and other universities (there, of course are brilliant men there, as well ... but she already acknowledges this), the larger question might be : why has this young woman not included them in her circle of friends and acquaintances?
My daughter is finishing her second year at university ... her female friends are chemistry, physics and engineering students. These are incredibly bright and determined women ... every bit as bright as their male counter parts.
I guess I can't understand aligning one's self with those that are less than bright and then moaning about it ...
Turbineguy
(37,324 posts)But men and women are different. It ain't just the plumbing.
dawg
(10,624 posts)Like a Venn diagram.
For example, I have two good friends who work in the same office as each other. I'd be willing to bet that he has more shoes than she does.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)I love shoes, make-up and fashion .... I also have two degrees and did quite well obtaining them. As is the case with many people, my female friends have simialr taste.
My daughter is a chemistry major (in their honors program) at a very well respected state university. She, too, loves shoes, make-up and fashion. Her female friends are fantasitcally bright motivated young women.
Mercifully, we have never doubted our capabilities, nor have those around us. We have always viewed intelligence as gender neutral.
I can't imagine why your daughter would have these thoughts. I am very glad my sons and daughter do not.
rainy
(6,091 posts)Those are my comments. I just look around and see so much fuss over fake ideals when I think the emphasis on those things, trying to please others, makes women seem insecure in their looks and we allow the corporate men's world to tell us how to look professional. I could be all wrong about that. I wear makeup etc... but the minimal. That doesn't make a woman smart or not but overall it might say something about our perceived place in the world.
My daughter has struggled with self confidence for a long time because she is very quiet. Our society says quiet people are awkward so she feels like she doesn't fit in with the "in" crowds. She is so smart. Straight A's at UVA. She did work hard to get them. Now working at Duke hospital is a huge accomplishment. I have always been a strong woman, working, loving my job etc. I think her thoughts come from many places but looking around at college girl behavior there might be some evidence in her mind to her thoughts. I was just thinking out loud that observation might make her think that. Some, too many, girls behave ridiculously to please men. You know, girls gone wild kind of thing. Stupid shoes, fake glitzy nails, no class leggings in your crack. That kind of thing. Dumb guys at least don't try to attract so much attention to themselves. I still know they are out there and I don't think boys are smarter than girls ever.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)I strongly disagree with them.
I also believe (some) guys engage in parallel behaviors (just as SOME women do). Humans, especially early in adult life when attempting to define who they are, do very stupid things. have you ever seen "Jersey Shore?" (I actually have only seen snippets, that was too much for me).
I am sorry that your daughter suffers from low self esteem. I do attribute a lot of this to unattainable standards of success and beauty promoted by mass media. This has a particularly deleterious effect on women. My youngest child does not have the confidence and sense of self worth as his older brother and sister.
Where I depart with you is in the thoughts that young women are somehow to "blame" when cultural misogyny rears its ugly head. Sadly, I fear (if it is in fact the case) your daughter's sense of self is the reason for her perception ... not the actions of the young women that surround her.
My 19 year old daughter's boyfriend (an incredibly bright kid attending a top 10 university) refers to her as the "brains" in the couple (they have been together for 5 years) .... despite the fact the she is very attractive, loves shoes and has a great sense of style.
Though my children have been raised to understand that "beauty" is simply the convergence of societal norms and genetics, there is enough evidence to show that those that are perceived "more attractive" than their peers are (unfairly?) given advantages in many situations. In one of the articles below there is the statement: "Psychologists think good looking employees are often more confident as a result of their attractiveness .... " I am inclined to believe that this is what is truly at play.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/money/attractive-people-paid-better-work-attention-bosses-report-article-1.466980
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5330812/Beautiful-people-are-paid-more-than-counterparts-because-they-are-worth-it.html
Researchers discovered attractive people get paid better and rise higher up the corporate ladder than less good-looking colleagues of equal ability.
But they believe it may not be simply down to bosses lusting after beautiful members of staff, it may actually be because they are easier to work with and better educated.
Psychologists think good looking employees are often more confident as a result of their attractiveness and therefore shine and stand out in the office. It also leads to them being better qualified.
Comrade_McKenzie
(2,526 posts)But intelligence is not one of them.
I've found equal amounts of stupidity in all humans. All I need to do is scroll through my news feed on Facebook to see that.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Fighting stereotype is a worthy goal. Replacing an outlying stereotype with the prevailing one is no better.