Swedish Judges Says Assange Allegations 'A Mess'

[xchrom]

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/swedish-judges-assange-allegations-mess-18869452#.UVw1zu1qP8s

A senior Swedish judge has described the sex crime allegations in his country against fugitive WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange as "a mess."

In a speech at Australia's University of Adelaide on Wednesday, Justice Stefan Lindskog, chairman of the Supreme Court of Sweden, listed legal obstacles to extraditing the 41-year-old Australian to the United States to face prosecution for exposing thousands of classified documents.

Assange has taken asylum in the Ecuadorean Embassy in London since last June to avoid extradition to Sweden on sex crime allegations.

He is wanted in Sweden for questioning over criminal allegations made by two women. But Assange says the Swedish allegations are a ploy to get him the Sweden from where he would be extradited to the United States.

Top Swedish judge backs WikiLeaks

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/top-swedish-judge-backs-wikileaks/story-fn3dxiwe-1226612036070

JULIAN Assange may be safe from extradition to the United States even if he returns to Sweden, suggests one of the Scandinavian country's top judges.

In a rare public lecture delivered in Adelaide, Justice Stefan Lindskog defended the leaking of classified information, saying the case against the WikiLeaks founder was "a mess", and raised many questions over the legality of the US ever being able to extradite Assange via Sweden.

"It should never be a crime to make known crime of a state," Justice Lindskog, the chairman of the Supreme Court of Sweden, told a crowd at the University of Adelaide on Wednesday night.

Swedish prosecutors are pursuing Assange for questioning over allegations of sex offences against two women.


Top Swedish judge backs WikiLeaks
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/national/16535763/top-swedish-judge-backs-wikileaks/


He added that extensive media coverage of the case has simply led to distrust in the legal system.

"I think it is a mess," he said.

Justice Lindskog also backed a suspected source to WikiLeaks, US soldier Bradley Manning.

He said the release of classified information was for the benefit of mankind - especially secret combat video in Iraq that showed the American crew mowing down a group of civilians and a Reuters photographer.

He said he hoped Mr Manning would have a fair trial.

[freshwest]

1. Sounds good for Assange. Get the Swedes to announce the same and it'll be done.

[TheMadMonk]

12. Trouble is, plenty of evidence makes Sweden a part of the Extraordinary Rendition...

...network, and also has a record of cooperating in a number of suspect extraditions to the US.

Notwithstanding how far I'd trust such an assurance, their steadfast refusal to provide such assurances when directly asked for them, is at least a little ominous.

[byeya]

2. Re: Manning. As was said in the 60s, military justice is to justice as military music is to music.

It's refreshing to here the words of the Swedish judge.

[xtraxritical]

16. I worship John Phillip Sousa.

[ReRe]

18. ;-)

I received the John Philip Sousa Music Award in high school.

[xtraxritical]

26. Third share first to first first in two years that's me 'n my trumpet.

[ReRe]

27. Entire percussion section & trumpet in HS, French Horn in college, piano, guitar....

Now? Nothing!

[xtraxritical]

54. I put down the horn quite a while ago, now I just do guitar.

I have an old old fake book with all the classics, Lazy River is my favorite.

[ananda]

37. I like Sousa too.

Loved the movie with Clifton Webb and all the music.

[malaise]

3. What is on trial here is democracy

and transparency - I hope Assange wins- governments cannot violate the rule of law and expect immunity and cover-ups when the truth is exposed..

[woo me with science]

36. [phone]

[randome]

38. But it's okay for Assange to do so.

Some 'hero of the people'. He won't abide by Swedish justice and he broke the terms of his bail.

It's his choice to stay holed up in an Ecuadorian embassy.

[sabrina 1]

55. Assange already won. It was clear from the day Wikileaks posted the CIA memo

on their site, musing over the best way to 'get him', discarding anything violent of course, we would never do that, and settling on a 'sex scandal' that it was going to happen.

Just months later coincidentally, right after Assange announced the info he had on a 'major bank', the phony sex scandal became a reality.

Anyone following the story from the beginning was never fooled. But they do know how to pull emotional strings.

Sweden's right wing government, together with Karl Rove who coincidentally also spent time in Sweden with his good friend who he helped get elected, were very 'cooperative' in helping that ridiculous case, now in its third year without charges.

Assange is very popular in his own country whose puppet government has angered many people there for not assisting an Australian citizen when he needed it.

What a sham this whole thing has been. Good to see people like this judge, finally speaking out.

[Nye Bevan]

4. So Assange should be able to return to Sweden for questioning as he promised to do (nt)

[UnrepentantLiberal]

8. That was good.

You made a funny.

[Zorra]

5. Yep. Aug., 2012 ~

Julian Assange is being smeared and framed by the 1%.

There is no case.

Even if these allegations were true, the alleged assault would be totally impossible to successfully prosecute, given that the forces of justice were applied with complete integrity.

This entire drama is a staged event by a vindictive 1% who are determined to punish Julian for exposing them for the monsters that they are. Using false allegations of sexual assault is the simplest way for the 1% to ruin a person's reputation, and to neutralize their post-allegation actions, without having to have any tangible evidence to do this with. They are using this case, which is already moot, in order to insure that Julian can no longer threaten the status quo of their dictatorial control over world affairs.

[bemildred]

6. All they have to do is guarantee not to extradite him.

The main reason I think they do plan to extradite him is that they won't promise not to. The handling of this case has never made sense as a sex crime.

[JVS]

9. Maybe they should question him in a location other than Sweden.

[bemildred]

10. Hey, that could work too! nt

[hack89]

11. Only if he agrees to be taken into custody if the Swedes decide to arrest him.

considering he has run twice, I don't think that will happen.

[JDPriestly]

19. Arrest him for having sex without a condom without consent?

Based on what evidence.

The testimony of a woman motivated by who knows what when there are so many political issues involved? Testimony of two women who corresponded on the internet before filing their charges? The evidence might warrant questioning in some situations, but here we are talking about someone who had consensual sex the night before with the woman or women and who has to be extradited at great expense and trouble.

There is something fishy about the Assange accusations.

Rape is a very serious matter. It is very possible in this case that the rape accusation is baseless and being used to cause people to look upon Assange as some kind of monster.

[hack89]

20. It might be baseless - that's why we have judicial systems to sort such things out.

which means that Assange has to respect the Swedish legal system. Until he does, they are under no obligation to give him special treatment.

[ReRe]

23. Seriously...

think of how the case would stack up. The accusers would have needed to have a physical examination replete with rape kit evidence ASAP after the event. If it was consensual, then there probably wouldn't be any physical injuries to note. BUT, there would be semen. And if the semen could be proved to have been Assange's, then maybe he would be found guilty? I don't quite understand that crazy law they have. If you don't use a prophylactic, then it's rape? Without evidence, how can they find him guilty? Guilty of what? Is it just he-said/she-said? And the woman is always considered innocent? Did they become impregnated?
If they have the proof, he's a sitting duck. If not, he should walk.

[Matariki]

28. And neither of the women accused Assange of rape

But wanted him to get an std test because of sex without a condom, which the Swedish law apparently interpreted as rape.

[ReRe]

29. Well, the STD test is moot now...

... ya think? So, did they get an STD? If not, then they didn't get one from him. Unless they were promiscuous and ended up with one from someone else and they just blamed it on him? I think the whole thing was bogus, just to get him extradited to the US. And that's another question. Julian wasn't American. How can the USG extradite him if he's not a US citizen? What are they going to do with him... send him to Gitmo? Or give him the Bradley Manning treatment? Would they try him in a military court, or civil court?

Some judge needs to come to his senses and throw the whole thing out, period. And the US needs to drop it. And Julian needs to go "underground."

[JDPriestly]

31. It's my understanding that he gave the evidence required for the STD

test. Besides, if one of them had an STD that could be ascertained from his biological samples, they would probably know it by now and that would be the accusation and a very different story.

[struggle4progress]

79. Untrue. The investigation into the rape complaint was reopened on the appeal of the complainant

Sweden reopens Wikileaks founder rape investigation
1 September 2010
Last updated at 06:50 ET
... The decision to re-open the case follows an appeal by a Swedish woman who has accused Mr Assange of raping her. In a statement about her decision to review the case, Ms Ny said of the rape allegation that "more investigations are necessary before a final decision can be made". She also said that an accusation of molestation - which is not a sex offence under Swedish law - against Mr Assange should be reclassified and investigated as a case of sexual coercion and sexual molestation ...

[Matariki]

88. True. As much as you seem to wish it were not.

Your link is an old link from 2010 and doesn't really contradict the allegations which were about a ripped condom. And came about after the two women contacted each other and decided they wanted std tests done

Link - with a later date than the one you posted:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-sweden


And also, there's this, which is much more recent - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/09/17/assange_case_police_report/ :

The case against Wikileaks founder Julian Assange may be on the brink of collapse following claims from the defence team that the central piece of evidence used in the case does not contain Assange’s DNA.

According to details that have emerged in a 100-page police report submitted after witnesses were interviewed and forensic evidence had been examined, the condom submitted for evidence by one of the key alleged sexual assault victims does not contain Assange’s DNA.

This whole thing is so, so OBVIOUSLY about something other than what is being claimed it's about.

[struggle4progress]

90. You wrote: "neither of the women accused Assange of rape." But one did,

as my link from the time shows

[Matariki]

96. Your link was old. AND it looks more like she's addressing the language of Swedish law

It's not clear. Or maybe she's just changing her story. If so, why?

[struggle4progress]

98. " It may well be that the serious allegations of sexual assault and rape are not substantiated

in court, but I have come to the conclusion that these are all matters for Swedish due process and that Assange is undermining both himself and his own transparency agenda – as well as doing the US department of justice a favour – by making his refusal to answer questions in Sweden into a human rights issue. There have been three rounds in the UK courts and the UK courts have upheld the European Arrest Warrant in his name three times. The women in question have human rights, too, and need resolution. Assange’s noble cause and his wish to avoid a US court does not trump their right to be heard in a Swedish court. I don’t regret putting up bail money for Assange but I did it so that he would be released while awaiting trial, not so that he could avoid answering to the allegations."
Jemima Khan on Julian Assange: how the Wikileaks founder alienated his allies
WikiLeaks – whose mission statement was “to produce a more just society based upon truth” – has been guilty of the same obfuscation and misinformation as those it sought to expose, while its supporters are expected to follow, unquestioningly, in blinkered, cultish devotion.
By Jemima Khan Published 06 February 2013 13:15


That quote, from earlier this year, is by Jemima Khan. She's a newspaper editor and seems to have views that are often similar to mine. In addition, she was an Assange supporter, who had put up money promising Assange's appearance in court and lost it when he jumped bail. BTW, complete jackass that he is, he didn't consult any of his supporters before jumping bail: it figured it was just tough shizz for them if they lost their money

[struggle4progress]

91. "a Swedish court approved a request to detain Mr Assange for questioning relating to one count

of unlawful coercion, two counts of sexual molestation, and one count of rape"
Q&A: Julian Assange and the law
9 October 2012 Last updated at 11:44 ET

So a woman complained of rape, and the investigation (after being dropped) was reopened on her appeal on the same complaint. Later a Swedish court issued an arrest warrant for rape

[struggle4progress]

93. "... The position with offence 4 is different. This is an allegation of rape. The framework list

is ticked for rape. The defence accepts that normally the ticking of a framework list offence box on an EAW would require very little analysis by the court. However they then developed a sophisticated argument that the conduct alleged here would not amount to rape in most European countries. However, what is alleged here is that Mr Assange “deliberately consummated sexual intercourse with her by improperly exploiting that she, due to sleep, was in a helpless state”. In this country that would amount to rape ..."
City of Westminster Magistrates’ Court (Sitting at Belmarsh Magistrates’ Court)
The judicial authority in Sweden -v- Julian Paul Assange
Findings of facts and reasons

So a woman complained of rape, and the investigation (after being dropped) was reopened on her appeal on the same complaint. Later a Swedish court issued an arrest warrant for rape. This was upheld not only by Swedish courts, but also by UK courts

[struggle4progress]

94. "The other woman wanted to report rape. I gave my testimony to support her story"

– Den andra kvinnan ville anmäla för våldtäkt. Jag gav min berättelse som vittnesmål till hennes berättelse och för att stötta henne.
30-åriga kvinnan: Jag utsattes för övergrepp
Berättar om anklagelserna mot Wikileaks grundare Julian Assange
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7652935.ab

So a woman complained of rape, and the investigation (after being dropped) was reopened on her appeal on the same complaint. Later a Swedish court issued an arrest warrant for rape. This was upheld not only by Swedish courts, but also by UK courts

[Matariki]

95. Struggle4progress you always seem to swoop down on any post about Assange

and post a lot of misinformation, insinuations, character assassinations, and derogatory pet names for his defenders.

Just look at the way you've gone through this thread, in one day.

I have to wonder why. I frankly find rather odd.

http://www.google.com/search?q=struggle4progress+assange&sitesearch=democraticunderground.com

[struggle4progress]

97. I've provided links for my assertions

[Matariki]

99. Seriously, if you're not being PAID to make anti-Assange posts in such bulk

then you have a severe and obsessive fixation.

I'm aware of you links. Most of them are questionable. But that's not really the point. I get that some people don't like Assange for various reasons, but few people seem as persistent and voluminous in their posts about him.

[struggle4progress]

100. Which of the links I've provided do you find questionable?

One comes from an article written by one of the women involved, saying she had supported the other woman in her rape complaint. One comes from the BBC, explaining that the rape investigation was reopened after one of the women appealed. Another comes from the BBC, explaining when a Swedish court had issued an arrest warrant for rape. I also provided a finding from the original judge at Belmarsh, explaining that the the Swedish warrant includes a rape allegation and that the alleged act would also constitute rape in the UK. I provided another quote from Jemima Khan, who contributed to Assange's bail and who reiterates that Assange is wanted in Sweden for a rape prosecution

If the story is worth discussing, then IMO it is worth discussing accurately and with attention to detail. Your inaccurate claim, that neither of the women accused Assange of rape, now seems to me thoroughly debunked.

Your response is informative: you attack this as a lot of misinformation and complain I must either be PAID or must have a severe and obsessive fixation

[Matariki]

102. I'd rather understand your obsession. Why do you post so much negative stuff about Assange?

[struggle4progress]

103. I simply disproved your claim: "neither of the women accused Assange of rape"

[Matariki]

107. I wouldn't call a 3 year old link "proof" - and I'm STILL interested in your anti-Assange obsession

and why you run through any and every post about him with old or dubious 'links'.

[randome]

105. Few are as accurate as struggle4progress, either.

Not meaning to get in the middle of a good sub-thread but it is what it is.

[JDPriestly]

30. As I understand it, he already submitted biological samples

to prove he did not have AIDs which was their first excuse.

It makes no sense. If they had some physical evidence, the journalists would probably know it because it would probably be mentioned in the extradition papers.

That is why I think the case is bogus and without evidence.


I could be wrong, but in the US the defendant is supposed to get the benefit of the doubt and be considered innocent until proved guilty. I guess that is not the Swedish law. Apparently they can hold people without a whole lot of evidence and without bail.

[ReRe]

32. I didn't know he submitted to tests...

.... I'm with you, JD. It's all bogus.

[JDPriestly]

43. I can't guarantee that I am right about that, but if he did not actually

have the tests done, he offered to have them done. I don't think this is about the possible transmission of a venereal disease.

[JDPriestly]

45. The presence of semen would prove that there was unprotected sex,

but it would not in any way prove that it was nonconsensual.

The consent can only be proved through hearsay.

That is the problem for me. It is strictly he said, she said.

[freshwest]

13. That would make for a quick resolution, unless it really *is* about a sex crime.

[bemildred]

14. Well, if nothing else it would expose his dissembling, if that's what it is.

Like I said, the main reason I think they did or do intend to extradite him, if they can, is because they won't promise not to, and the Swedish case does not appear in itself to have anything to do with his information dissemination "crimes", if that's what they are.

[struggle4progress]

56. Lindskog, in his speech, suggests forward extradition is highly unlikely

[bemildred]

58. Yeah, I read that. nt

[struggle4progress]

60. You can watch the speech if interested: I posted a link downthread

#47

It's an interesting speech. I don't think most of the reporters writing the stories about it actually heard much of it, since the headlines and stories don't seem terribly accurate

[bemildred]

62. I'm not interested.

Edit: the problem is Assange won't believe it, and he's the guy you have to convince to return to Sweden.

[struggle4progress]

66. Lindskog's speech is actually directed towards law and policy wonks:

he discusses at length, for example, the aspects of Swedish law associated with the illegal but unprosecutable leaking of police reports

[bemildred]

67. Exactly, that's the stuff I'm not interested in.

It doesn't appear to me that law and policy are relevant here, this is politics, spooks and secrets and daggers in the dark.

[bemildred]

69. To be clear: if they ever get him back to Sweden, such issues might be relevant.

Based on his past experience of the Swedish justice system, I think that most unlikely short of use of force to compel him.

[struggle4progress]

70. "his past experience" means what, exactly?

[bemildred]

74. Don't play stupid with me, or I'll go back to ignoring you.

He is clearly very unhappy with the Swedish justice system. That is not something I need to explain, it's a fact.

[struggle4progress]

75. I suppose he IS unhappy: UK courts have ordered his extradition based on a rape complaint

[bemildred]

77. Yeah, I expect he is not happy with the UK justice system either.

And that likewise makes it seem unlikely they will ever get him back to Sweden without public guarantees.

[struggle4progress]

80. Authorities usually don't negotiate conditions for extradition with persons who have been ordered

by the courts to be extradited. Assange is, of course, free to take the view that he is special and precious in this regard, and he is also free to attempt to persuade others of that, but it's a nice long uphill climb IMO

[bemildred]

82. Yeah, I know that. They already extradited him to Sweden, that's why he is in the embassy.

I think we just have a stalemate, and that's how I expect it to stay.

[rhett o rick]

7. The so-called centrists among us will not be happy. They support the suppression by the 1%. nm

[xiamiam]

15. well, they support their guy...once hes gone they'll be pretending to be outraged by injustice

but, the point is that a swedish judge is supporting wikileaks and recognizes the plot to destroy assange. Thanks for posting this

[whatchamacallit]

22. So true

It really is that pathetically simple...

[struggle4progress]

68. Lindskog, in his talk, in no way suggested there was any plot to destroy Assange

[treestar]

24. False

They simply do not agree that his problem is "suppression by the 1%" Don't mischaracterize others' positions - it makes you look dishonest.

[rhett o rick]

25. Of course they dont see the "suppression". They see it as security. The 1% protecting us from the

bad people. I think you would agree that so-called centrists dont like Assange and WikiLeaks. And the only reason I have heard is that they dared "break the law". The law that protects the 1% from scrutiny. They say that breaking the "laws" of the 1% will bring chaos. So I am assuming they are willing to give up freedoms for security. "It should never be a crime if you exposing the crimes of the state." I hope I got that quote correct.

If I mischaracterized your position, plez correct me.

[treestar]

39. Well, yes you do

No one knows if Julian broke the law or not, since he won't go and sort it out, using the lame excuse that the US is out to get him.

Manning may have broken the law, but, innocent until proven guilty. He was military here and had certain duties, so his court martial is no excuse for Julian to pretend he would even be treated unfairly here, even in his imaginary world where the US extradites him. He would have a full jury, not being military.

[rhett o rick]

40. I make it much more simple. Until Cheney goes to trial for the murder of thousands of children,

I cant feel any animosity toward Julian or Manning. The 1% dont get arrested, only the 99%. Whose side do you choose?

[JDPriestly]

44. My view on this precisely.

In the beginning, I saw it as a free speech, freedom of the press -- the internet being the new "press," issue. As more and more was released, it seemed to me that the problem was not the exposure of national secrets so much as the exposure of the idiocy of our diplomats and our national security bureaucracy's obsession with secrecy about many things that are not secret at all.

The abuses of human rights and violations of the rights of members of the press in Iraq were no doubt commonly known in Iraq. It is only the America that we have been kept in the dark about the war crimes and the suppression of their exposure.

So, over time, I have lost sympathy with my government and its paranoid and foolish attempt to keep its people in the dark.

Thank God or whatever you want to call the source of justice and peace for the Guardian. They are now among the angels of peace and justice. Our government, unfortunately, is not among the angels of peace and justice although it would like to pretend to itself that it is.

[treestar]

51. I don't have any animosity towards anyone

Well,maybe Cheney. But I am not willing that the criminal laws be suspended entirely while we wait for a prosecution of Cheney. That would be a bit anarchic.

[rhett o rick]

52. Of course we should not suspend the enforcement of criminal law, however,

we should not let the Elite use criminal law as a tool for political persecution. I dont trust our government for a second that they wont do everything in their power to make Assange an example of how they treat any and all who dare challenge the Power Elite like they did with Manning.

The governments brutal treatment of Occupy revealed the level they are willing to go to crush all attempts at controlling their power.

Our Constitution has been put on hold while the Power Elite fight their War on Freedom (Terror). Profit trumps all.

[sabrina 1]

92. So what is holding the Swedish prosecutor up from filing charges? It's been nearly

three years and she still will not file charges. At this point, most rational people, especially if they are familiar with the case, know the reason to be that they have no case. Their own patriarchal lawyer has all but admitted that this case would not hold up in court. But it serves a better purpose to keep pretending there is one. The CIA memo posted on Wikileaks revealed the plot to 'get him by smearing him with a sexual abuse charge'. You don't have to be genius to know why they wanted to 'get him'. They have effectively controlled our media and thought they were home free, until International News Organizations stepped up to the plate, Al Jazeera also, and they could no longer control information.

We look ridiculous to be going after people like this who are so popular around the world. The more he is persecuted, the more people admire him.

[struggle4progress]

59. All criminal process in Sweden should cease until Cheney is behind bars?

[rhett o rick]

63. That's a silly suggestion. nm

[struggle4progress]

65. I agree. Cheney's crimes have no connection whatsoever to the Swedish sexual complaints

[rhett o rick]

71. Cheney is protected by the 1% and Assange is persecuted by the 1%.

It amazes me that supposedly politically liberal persons would buy into the message of the 1% and demand Assange's head. I guess it's the messaging.

[struggle4progress]

76. I thought we had agreed Cheney had nothing whatsoever to do with the Swedish complaint

[rhett o rick]

84. I have given my stance here, what's yours? nm

[struggle4progress]

86. "Get the facts right first. Then do the analysis. And don't jumble things together"

[JDPriestly]

17. K&R

Because how in the world do you prove that a woman did not give consent to sex without a condom unless you rely on hearsay evidence. Two witnesses may be enough in some cases, but when the two witnesses were corresponding on the internet before bringing their charges and when their other evidence, physical evidence is lacking? It might be worth a try if you don't have to extradite the defendant.

But there is something very suspicious about the fact that Sweden was trying to extradite a potential defendant on so little evidence.

Now there may have been some really strong evidence that I cannot picture, but what in the world it could be, I do not know. I think that if better evidence than belated hearsay had existed, the press would have found out about it by now. That is because the attempted extradition of Assange was so controversial.

And, how are we to prevent our governments from committing war crimes, atrocities and other international crimes, if those who know about the crimes and evil dare not speak out?

Think of it. What if the USSR had successfully silenced Solzhenitzyn? Would we now know about the horrors of the gulags?

Whistleblowers deserve our support.

If Manning spoke up out of conscience, his sentence, if any, should be very light.

It is easy to punish the whistleblower for breaches of national security, but who punishes the war criminals themselves? The only punishment they ever get is that others learn the truth about their cruelty.

[muriel_volestrangler]

21. So the actual "I think it is a mess" quote seems to apply to the US extradition situation

The context being:

"What is classified under US law is probably not classified under Swedish law, and enemies to the US may not be enemies to Sweden," he said.

Thirdly, Swedish law protected sources who leak to the press, he said, and that protection meant a prosecution would likely not go ahead in Sweden and therefore may not be grounds for extradition.

He added that extensive media coverage of the case has simply led to distrust in the legal system.

"I think it is a mess," he said.

It's not clear from these (or the other articles about this lecture) if he did specifically say the sex crime allegations are 'a mess'.

FWIW, an article he wrote a few days ago, which is an extract from the speech: http://www.afr.com/p/lifestyle/review/julian_assange_swedish_judge_view_UKXfH1WonxwgZeaG0XnizI

[woo me with science]

33. K&R "It should never be a crime to make known crime of a state."

Perhaps Swedish justice works better than ours.

[randome]

35. I'm sure Sweden has no problem with releasing all their military and diplomatic documents, then.

Right?

When someone outside your country decides you don't have a right to privacy, that's called spying.

[rhett o rick]

41. Dont beat around the bush. Say what you mean. Do you want Julian to be

prosecuted? And Manning too?

I would just say try, plez try to keep prospective. Dick Cheney kill thousands of innocent children and torture some too. When he see justice then come back and spew your hatred for the whistle blowers that represent the 99%. Choose a side.

[randome]

49. I want him to face whatever charges or inquiries await him in Sweden.

With all the public attention he has brought to himself, it's beyond ludicrous that he's only in hiding because the U.S. government might 'disappear' him.

He's a coward and he needs to bring this farce to an end. I don't think he's going to, however. I think he will stay in the Ecuadorian embassy for a long time.

And Cheney is a criminal, no doubt about it. But that's not the issue here. To conflate Assange's 'goings on' in Sweden with what Cheney & Bush did is incomprehensible to me. Assange is not even on the level of a mass murderer so why is he hiding?

The answer is ego.

[rhett o rick]

50. I think there is a good chance that the USofA would love to

get there hands on him and subject him to the same treatment they subjected Manning. And I think he has every right to fear that. The USofA has put our Constitution on "hold" while we fight the War on Terror which should really be called the War on the Elite.

Mr. Assange is a threat to the Elite 1% and is being persecuted.

I side with the 99%. I say freedom is more important than security. Sadly some choose the security of the 1%.

[struggle4progress]

57. Assange doesn't fall under the UCMJ

[rhett o rick]

61. And so??????

[struggle4progress]

64. Credibility depends on getting the facts right:

Manning is charged under UCMJ Articles 92, 104, and 134; Assange could never be so charged as he is not subject to UCMJ

[rhett o rick]

72. I am not disputing that. The UCMJ isnt the only tool of the government. Especially with the NDAA as

signed.

[struggle4progress]

81. You suggested a parallelism between Assange and Manning. Now you mention NDAA, but Manning's

prosecution under UCMJ has nothing whatsoever to do with NDAA

[rhett o rick]

83. Sorry, I can see you are struggling with this. I believe our government

will persecute Assange like they are persecuting Manning. I am fully aware they are different and their cases are different.

I am discouraged when people defend the actions of the Elite 1%.

[struggle4progress]

87. Manning isn't being persecuted, as far as I can tell. He had access to restricted information,

due to his position as an enlisted man in the army, and after warnings from the army about his carelessness regarding security, he seems to have decided to release something like three quarters of a million documents to Wikileaks, including perhaps a quarter of a million diplomatic cables stretching over a period of forty some years

For a very small handful of those documents, he might be able to say honestly that he was driven by concern or outrage, but the size of the release clearly indicates that he could not possibly have even read most of the documents, let alone understood in any coherent way what the documents might mean. There were avenues along which Manning could have proceeded lawfully: in particular, under Federal law, he would have been entirely safe to raise any issues and shown any documents, that might have concerned him, with his Representative or Senators. Had he been interested in leaking to the press a small number of documents relating to specific issues, he might well have gotten cooperation from the press and might have much more support

Instead, he chose to send everything to a third party, whose use of it would be unclear. The Index on Censorship broke with Assange when reports surfaced that Assange's friend "Israel Shamir" had been peddling the embassy cables to the Belarusian regime to help them identify dissidents. A number of reporters at the Guardian became disillusioned when Assange, in response to concerns that the Taliban would use the cables to identify persons cooperating with the US in Afghanistan, expressed the opinion that the safety of such persons was of no interest to him

The US is governed by civilians, not by the military, and the conduct of US foreign policy, including decisions about release of embassy cables, lies with the civilian government, not with military personnel -- whether they be generals or privates. Manning's vandalism forced the re-posting of a number of foreign service employees, at some considerable cost and inconvenience

There is no credible scenario under which Manning would not be prosecuted under the UCMJ for randomly dumping hundreds of thousands of documents. If the military refused to prosecute him, the civilian government could only interpret that as a violation of the principle of civilian rule, and military officers would be removed and replaced until the principle of civilian rule was decisively restored

The military, moreover, will have its own internal reasons to prosecute: military matters often require a certain secrecy, and the military is not going to establish the precedent that dumping huge volumes of information, for everyone to read, is acceptable. I think we can say with some confidence that during WWI or WWII any Allied soldier, who released to the general public thousands of restricted documents (regardless of their content), would have been hanged quickly: fortunately, these times are not those times, so Manning does not face execution, though he will face a long prison term. I hope he gets out of prison still young enough to do something worthwhile, since he obviously has some intelligence

I suspect you and I share similar views regarding oligarchy, plutocracy, and war-mongering profiteers. If we do not share similar views regarding the importance of conventionial politics, then I might urge you to heed the advice of Anatoly Kuznetsov's advice in his lengthy Babi-Yar: "Despise politics, but never ignore it!" I hope we share similar views regarding the importance of grassroots organizing. But IMO success requires careful accurate thinking rooted in facts and details, and I worry that over-hasty idealization and easy sloganeering produces setbacks, disillusionment, and cynicism

[rhett o rick]

109. I try to keep things in prospective. Currently the criminals of the 1% dont get prosecuted

while those of us in the 99% do. I think that Assange's persecution is politically motivated. I would rather be wrong on the side of freedom than on the side of the 1%.

[struggle4progress]

85. If you actually listen to Lindskog's speech, you will notice that

he discusses some problems with the Swedish transparency laws, including the fact that police investigation documents are regularly leaked before the investigation is completed, as happened in this case

[Nye Bevan]

34. If the USA wants Assange, why don't they extradite him from the UK?

The UK is a closer ally of the US than Sweden.

[struggle4progress]

46. And extradition from the UK would be legally less complex: if, after the UK extradites

Assange to Sweden, the US were to request forward extradition from Sweden, Assange would be able to fight that extradition in both the UK and the Swedish courts

[treestar]

53. This ^^^^^^

That's what makes Julian's claims ridiculous.

[Comrade_McKenzie]

42. Assange is a conspiracy theorist with a persecution complex.

His shenanigans have done nothing to better the lives of me or anyone around me...

And I am ashamed that I ever defended him on here.

[struggle4progress]

47. University of Adelaide Live Stream: The Assange Affair

Public Lecture by Justice Stefan Lindskog of the Supreme Court of Sweden
3 April 2013, 7:00pm - 9.00pm (ACST)
Elder Hall, The University of Adelaide
North Terrace Campus
http://www.adelaide.edu.au/live/?utm_source=hootsuite&utm_medium=uniofadelaide&utm_campaign=socialmedia

About the first 10:00 minutes are just audience streaming into the auditorium. Justice Lindskog starts around 14:30.

[woo me with science]

48. kick

[WillyT]

73. K & R !!!

[brooklynite]

78. I wasn't aware that criminal cases were litigated through symposium speeches

I'm sure it makes his accuser feel better.

[struggle4progress]

106. Lindskog merely discussed some issues related the case, making no effort to resolve them

[G_j]

104. "It should never be a crime to make known crime of a state,"

[woo me with science]

108. [phone]