A cartoon that isn't funny

[Bucky]

See? No punchline. Not unless we get our shit together, that is.

[liberal N proud]

1. k&r

[annabanana]

2. yep! . . . . . n/t

[niyad]

3. that cartoon says it all, in very clear, simple, easy-to-understand terms. the pukes will probably

scream if they see it.

that, combined with your sig line, pretty much covers everything.

[WillyT]

4. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[LittleBlue]

5. K&R!

[Starkiller228]

6. Socialist ideals are great and all

But you can obviously tell this cartoon was just from some smartass (probably a Ron Paul supporter) who has enough time on their hands to just bitch about America. Yes, some of these are problems, but the overly-egotistical way it's presented is annoying.

Not sure how it was suppose to be funny, if it even was going for that, it just seems like the old tired nit-picking on America because "blah blah is better in Europe". Yawn. Just remove the south, we'd be off fabulously. Then again, this author should realize the population difference between Nordic countries, and the U.S, among other factors.

[arcane1]

8. I doubt a Ron Paul supporter would promote spending more money on education n/t

[Blue_Tires]

142. Especially since Paul is on record for eliminating the Dept. of Education

[zeemike]

9. You do know what nit picking is don't you?

A nit is a very small louse that is hard to see...
the problems he outlined are not small nor are they hard to see...that is if you are not so self centered that all you think of is your own problems and what effects you alone.

Putting a whole generation of kids in heavy debt is not a nit...it is a gigantic problem.

[zeemike]

24. Kids are just little yous

They reflect society because society teaches them from the time they are borne.
If they are screw-ups then it is because you taught them to be screw ups in some way or the other...(note that the you I speak of is people in general not you specifically...fair, because you speak of screw-ups in general not any one specific one)

Pogo said it first..."We have met the enemy and he is us"

[Occulus]

26. Hmm. No, that's not a gigantic problem

The problem is you (note that I am using the personal 'you' here, and NOT the editorial 'you') and people like you who refuse to admit, accept, and acknowledge just how goddamned fucking bad the situation really is, and the role your government-can't-do-anything-right cancer of a proudly pig-ignorant worldview has played in ALL our misfortunes!

I can't help you because you will not be helped. You're convinced, yet completely bereft of one shred of evidence in support of your fantasy. Comprehending the evidence screaming at you and blinking million-candlepower strobes three inches from your eyes would entail you admitting how goddamned wrong you are. Your fragile mind can't handle that level of cognitive dissonance.

So pack your stupid Republican trolling up and take it the fuck outta here, sister. You aren't welcome and we don't want you here.

[Occulus]

43. I grew up in the 80s, kid. Listen to this because I'm only going to say it ONE time.

In the 1980s, before that addled evil fuckschmuck Reagan convinced too many of us that we didn't need a social safety net and that greed was good, a high school graduate could, even with loans, go to college, get an education, graduate, get a GOOD job, buy a house, and start raising a family. This was expected. Not that they would do it, mind you, but that they could.

My father had the sole income in my family, under $60K/yr. On that income, he put both me and my sister through elementary, middle, and high school WHILE my mother stayed home because, get this, she didn't need to work in order to support us. She didn't even have to supplement my father's (modest!) income. One income, at what my father was making as a MIDDLE MANAGER, was enough to put two kids through school (both of us graduating with honors, thank you very much), DOUBLE THE SIZE OF THE HOME ITSELF, and get us a start into college. Yes, we both had loans. The payments on these, even on a minimum wage, did not cripple our futures. All my classmates who went to college and got loans experienced the same thing.

In less than ten years following my entry into college, higher education became progressively more and more unaffordable. My mom is in her seventies now. She works only because she wants to, because the house was paid off well over ten years ago. No mortgage, and her house is paid for, free and clear, including the property upon which it sits. Neither I nor my sister- with four kids of her own, living in a trailer park- will ever see the level of security or financial independence our parents had. NOT because we're shiftless layabouts, NOT because we make bad decisions, but because there. Isn't. Enough. Money. Coming. In.

We will NEVER own homes. We can't afford it. We won't ever be able to, even if we work as hard as we can and get as many hours as possible (this assumes an after-graduation job NOT in our degree fields, which happens too often to be anything but a showstopper). Neither I nor my sister will EVER be able to go back to school. The loan payments and debt we would graduate with are simply too crippling; without an absolute placement guarantee following graduation, the math simply does not add up. Minimum-wage work cannot pay off a four year (or longer) college degree, and there is no place in the nation- not one city, village, or town- in which we can work our way through school and pay rent and bills, all at the same time. In fact, there is no city, village, or town in which any American can work a minimum wage job and afford a two-bedroom apartment of any size. Not. One Village. City. Or. Town.

And really, that isn't too goddamned much to ask for, now, is it? To be able to work through school, pay rent and the bills, etc.? Minimum wage work used to be able to do that much, at least. Oh yes, roommates. I'm almost fucking 40. *I* have a roommate, and I'm not even in school. Make that math work, jeanyuss.

THESE. THINGS. ARE. NOT. OUR. FAULT. We both, in our own lifetimes, remember when that situation was not only not the case, but an entire galaxy removed from what we and everyone we knew and grew up with experienced as "America". We remember, clearly and with anger and the white-hot fury of a thousand exploding stars, the fact that when we grew up, a single income could support a family of four, pay for a home, go on vacations, buy Christmas gifts (mountains of them), put the kids into school and still have enough left over for elderly old Ma to live well in her old age. And not a bit of that, not one bit, was on a government handout of any kind.

That isn't possible any more. Stop denying reality. We're fucked as a society, and we didn't do it to ourselves. It was done TO us by the greedy-assed motherfuckers on Wall Street and in the overpaid and vastly underworked administrative offices of our schools and colleges, the predatory nature of our student loan structure, and oh yes, FUCKING REPUBLICAN ASSHOLES who wanted this situation, profited from it, and blame us for the shards of hope littering the floor of our china shop due solely to that goddamned FUCKING golden bull on the sidewalk in New York City that romped its way through our store, shattering our dreams as it went.

Wake the fuck up. You're wrong six ways from Sunday, and refusing to admit it puts YOU at fault, too. My only consolation in all this is that, given the direction things are headed and thanks in large part to your toxic apathy and misdirected blame, as well as those of people just like you, you will suffer the bitter fruits of phantom free-marketeer self-sufficiency more than I will.

Maybe you'll learn a thing or two as you struggle. And you will struggle, more than you ought to have. The pisser of it all is, you're telling the very people who don't want you to face that that they're wrong, placing blame where it does not in any way belong, and outright refusing the potential this country has to offer you if you and those like you would just get up off your dead asses and HELP FUCKING FIX IT.

[Kali]

64. EXCELLENT rant!

rightfuckingON!

[Rhiannon12866]

68. Well said! Hope that he reads this...

[Arugula Latte]

79. What Occulus said.

[HughBeaumont]

102. Now THAT'S a punch worthy of applause.

I grew up in the 80s too. Mom never had to start working . . . until Reagan. Dad's income used to be enough . . . until he got laid off during Reagan. Unfortunately, he had to go on strike three times during the 80s to retain the killer retirement benefits he now enjoys while he watches his precious Faux News. I think the 1990s college kids were the last generation to be afforded a higher education without being saddled with crippling debt for life. I graduated in 1994 with no student loan debt. I paid for college with a crap job AND had a car. I don't think today's graduates can say the same thing; not because they have no work ethic, but because even someone making what I make TODAY couldn't even afford college.

Bean counters were the worst thing to happen to America's economy, finances and industry. In their quest for continuing and ginormous profit, they kind of forgot about the need for additional business in order for that to happen. If you don't pay your workers, they can't buy shit. We only cared about one portion of society for 32 years running now. Their needs became first, foremost and ONLY, and for us, they made higher education less affordable and harder to obtain. I don't even get how no one saw this coming or how anyone thinks or ever thought that this is any kind of feasible economic or societal model.

[onlyadream]

107. I'm six years ahead of you

And I agree with EVERYTHING you said. I was VERY lucky that my house was bought just before the bubble started growing. A year after we bought our house we were astonished at the prices. We knew we couldn't afford our house if we had to buy it again.

I feel sorry for all the young couples who are scratching and clawing to make it in this world.

[kdmorris]

108. Awesome rant!!

In 1980, I turned 11.... I know these things of which you speak!

[gaspee]

143. Hey, Me too

turned 11 in 1980, that is.

[Bucky]

109. I think we have the same demographic profiles

That description of your family's situation is identical to mine. Of course in the 70s and 80s, making $60K was significantly above the median income, but it wasn't living high on the hog, either. In general, there was a more favorable distribution of income in those days. College today is prohibitively expensive. My daughter, who just got out of college, is up to her eyeballs in debt. The idea of me owning a home is near science fiction. Housing, cars, health insurance.... all the things that you have to buy to get by in live--the big ticket items that are commodities rather than luxuries--take up more of the family income than ever before in US history. This is the thing that's squeezing the middle class.

When I was in school, our economics teacher taught us that your housing costs (be it rent or mortgage) should cost 1/3rd of your monthly income. When I realized a few years ago that I and most of my friends were paying over 40%, some more than 50%, for housing I asked my dad what they taught him in his day. He said in the 50s the figure was 25%. This one item has in two generations gone from 25% to over 40% of income. Now THAT is a squeeze. I asked my colleague at the school I teach at what figure they use for today's kid. He replied, "Oh, the state curriculum in economics doesn't deal with practical matters like that."

The system wants us both squeezed and dumb.

[SomeGuyInEagan]

123. Most excellent rant.

I am a few years ahead of you, so had it better.

Actually, I should say I had it lucky. I had the totally dumb fucking luck to be born at a time and a place ... where the leaders of my state and city believed in a strong PUBLIC education system, both k-12 and higher ed. And I benefited greatly from the work of the people generations before me so that my dad could work SAFELY in a factory, with a 40-hour workweek, with oversight in place (actually funded oversight, not just underfunded policies) which insured that his employer did not have an unsafe working environment or pollute the river one block away with factory waste or steal the employee pension fund (that happened later, during the Bush years).

Just dumb fucking luck for me. But a lot of work and sacrifice for those before me. And my duty to fight and work to bring it back for the next generation who will do the same for the generation which follows.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

125. Right beside you.

This deserves to be an original post. Well said. I am keeping this post. Thanks.

[prairierose]

129. Very well said.....thank you for saying it......n/t

[Rainngirl]

130. Dear God, Occulus!

That was BEAUTIFULLY done! Cathartic for me and dead-on accurate.

[RoseMead]

133. Thank you.

I, too, grew up in the 80s, and I watched things unfold just as you described. That is the truth, and only someone very young or very nearsighted (or very rich, and comfortably cushioned against hardship) could fail to see it at this point.

[Yooperman]

139. B - I - N - G - Fucking - O!

[noiretextatique]

141. excellent!

it's important that young people understand: america wasn't always as fucked up as it is now.

[Bucky]

111. How can you say you "lean socialist" when your 1st post inthread ridicules socialist ideas?

I think you're confused too.

[Iris]

31. Really? The whole country's problems is all because of kids wasting their lives away on meaningless

things? (And I don't even want to know what you think is meaningless).

Why are you here?

[IdaBriggs]

35. Reality and you have trouble getting along?

The KIDS are "the screw ups who corrupt our country" - not the Republcans (mostly Old People), not the corporatations (think Kids are in charge there?), not Faux Snoze (not a Real Kid working there, but a whole bunch who want to LOOK young!), and not by the establishment who don't even let people vote until they are 18 - yet YOU have the nerve to blame those Darn Kids.

Troll.

[WCLinolVir]

94. Does someone pay you to write that drivel?

Cause I have a hard time believing there is actually any thought process involved unless the purpose is disinformation. Maybe it's a mild dissociative disorder. I'll give you the benefit of a doubt.

[Webster Green]

99. Corporations are not a problem?

OMG! & WTF?!

They are a huge problem. Are you familiar with fascism?

[Lady Freedom Returns]

100. +1

agree, troll.

[Doremus]

126. I think "paid shill" might be more accurate. nt

[morningfog]

48. I'm with you! Fuck education! Fuck schools!

Lazy ass students trying to learn! FUck that! Go push a broom, you lazy punks!

I think you may be lost.

[tkmorris]

90. What meaning?

It started with you thinking that a Ron Paul fan would make or appreciate the message in that cartoon, which is about as likely as finding Rage Against the Machine on Mitch McConnell's iPod. The rest of it, and everything else you've said in this thread, was equally nonsensical. You might want to consider the notion that the reason behind the disagreement you are sensing is not that you are misunderstood but rather that you have a lot to learn about the topic you have chosen to expound upon.

[Bradical79]

124. You simply made a stupid statement

Your lack of comprehension of what Ron Paul libertarians believe in and how that compares with socialist ideals made your post pretty meaningless. This isn't a simple a simple disagreement, this is you joining in on a conversation without the basic understanding of the vocabulary and looking foolish in the process.

[olegramps]

127. To be kind, you actually lost me with your contradictory statements. Are you lost? Wrong board?

[MyOwnPeace]

12. I'm sorry, but............

you seem to be offended by the points being made.

Just consider which point?

Americans spend more on prisons than education.
And you call that something that is "blah blah....Europe?"
Do you not consider that fact a problem?

Just "remove the south" - that's your solution?
Is the "south" a burden that we must carry and not account for or use as an excuse?
Does that mean that we can continue to point to some region as an excuse for not making things better?

And the "population difference between Nordic countries" is another factor.
OK, so it's a factor - does that make things better here?
Should we "give up" because there is a "population difference?"

Again, sometimes the truth does offend - or hurt because of the obvious. But that doesn't mean we should deny or excuse it.

[morningfog]

49. You are letting your mask slip.

Anti-education, pro-death penalty, pro-prisons. Hmmm.....Enjoy your stay.

[Zoeisright]

52. I'm offended by the stupidity of people like you

who think that kids wasting time is the cause of this nation's problems. This country spends more on prison because people (mostly minorities and the poor) are sent to jail for minor offenses, like a hungry person stealing a bag of meatballs.

Here's the cause of the disaster that is the American economy, sparky: THE RICH. Since Reagan the asshole was in charge, the rich have siphoned off 97% of the economic growth in this country. This results in a huge disparity (I know that's a big word, but stick with me) between rich and poor, which causes exactly the problems we have been seeing.

God. Grow up, kid. Sounds like the others you so despise are just like you.

[Occulus]

76. No, troll, what we hate is greedy, self-entitled assholes TAKING more than they actually earned.

Do you really think a CEO sitting on his ass all day on one of twelve different corporate boards, a person who ensured his company paid ZERO in taxes for a whole damn decade, is in any reality worth $12,000+ AN HOUR?

That's not "hard work". That's FUCKING THEFT, and should be a FELONY.

And if you didn't pay taxes for ten years, you'd be in prison for exactly that!

[HughBeaumont]

119. Speaking of felonies and theft . . .

Riddle me this: how does a guy who was

* indicted on 98 counts of securities fraud and racketeering,

* eventually convicted of 6 counts of fraudulent securities reporting (felonies, last I checked),

* sentenced to 10 years in prison (of which he served less than 2 years),

* forced to pay $200 million in fines, $400 million in restitution (he paid $1.1 billion for all
lawsuits related to his actions while working as a junk bond trader at Drexel)

. . . come out of prison even richer than he was before???

Michael Milken has a net worth of 2 billion dollars.

If any of US stole even $500, we'd never work again and die in squalor.

It's because he was allowed to keep some of his wealth despite being convicted of securities-related felonies.

It also shouts loudly at the fact that once money goes to the top, it stays there no matter WHAT.

[zeemike]

57. You are getting a rough welcome here

But we play hard ball.

But I got a challenge for you...to answer these questions when ever you feel like it and have the time.

If we have more idiots in prison, then what makes them idiots?

If all of those European countries have much less crime that we do does that mean they have the death penalty?....cause most of them did away with it way long ago.

Does it mean that because we have more in jail than all the other countries in the world, we have the least crime?
Or does it mean that our society is the biggest failure?

And in those Nordic countries they take tax money from people and give it to students...let's say ten tax payers contribute to one student...If you scale that up it remains the same...so is it the amount of money total that bothers you then?

[Occulus]

58. We are spending more money on prisons BECAUSE WE ARE PRIVATIZING THEM.

We have more people IN prison because of 1) the drug war and 2) CONTRACTS STATES SIGNED WITH THOSE PRIVATIZED PRISONS MANDATING OCCUPANCY OF 95% OR HIGHER.

There's also the school-to-prison pipeline. A corrupt judge in PA got thrown in the slammer for throwing schoolkids into the system, for "offenses" as tiny and inconsequential as tardiness to class. He's serving time now, and most (NOT all) of those convictions were reversed and most (NOT all) of the criminal records expunged.

The Innocence Project has freed a lot of people wrongfully convicted of crimes the project was able to conclusively prove, to a 100% certainty, they did not commit. Many of those released were facing capital punishment. But for that project, we would have executed people who are 100%, no denying it innocent (NOT "not guilty&quot of the crimes for which they were imprisoned. Those people alone are more than enough reason for anyone without a completely broken moral compass to oppose capital punishment for any crime, be their guilt ever so obvious.

Or are you okay with killing innocent people because you think they probably did it? If that's the case, put a gun to your head, and paint the wall with what passes for your brains, because I sure as hell don't want you living in the same society I do.

"How much would it cost to give all citizens grants to help them? A lot..... Way lot. "

Do you have any fucking clue how unimaginably vast the US budget is? Have you even the faintest, foggiest notion of how much of that is spent on one and only one thing? Has it ever entered your mind that maybe, just maybe, the Pentagon could take a 10% hit per year- not even the hit many of us take on our health insurance premiums when they inevitably rise yet again- and we could go a long, long way to sending every adult to college who wanted to go?

Have you any conception of the enormous vastness of this country's wealth, or how small in relative terms a guaranteed college education as every American citizen's birthright actually costs, by comparison?

Can you explain to anyone without sounding like a completely heartless prick douche scumbag why you don't want that for yourself and your own children?

"I don't get it.... At all."

Wrong.

You refuse to try to understand the truth and its supporting evidence, even when that truth bites you in the dick.

[Occulus]

67. Did you even READ what I wrote here?

I already answered your stupid question before you asked it, and if you'd bothered to read, you wouldn't have asked. You're still incorrectly placing blame on "criminals", when a judge (now rightly behind bars on corruption and bribery charges, I believe) in PA was throwing kids in prison for being tardy to class, and who was getting monetary kickbacks for it, state legislatures are agreeing to contracts with private prisons (a thing which should not exist, ever), and the 100% innocent people freed from death row due to unconducted DNA tests, faulty, flawed, or coerced eyewitness testimony, corrupt crime lab technicians using sloppy procedures that ended in wrongful convictions, and on and fucking on.

You know who I blame? I blame YOU, and everyone who shares your complete lack of any moral compass. I blame you because you just cannot bring yourself to believe that horrible things happen to completely innocent and undeserving people, GOOD people who have done nothing at all wrong and are only trying to get by as best they can, and that they don't share some small part of the blame for the miseries unjustly, unfairly, undeservingly, and for all of that occasionally intentionally inflicted upon them for a fucking profit.. Guess what? That's at the heart of what's wrong with America- heartless black-souled discompassionate unethical immoral motherFUCKERS like you, who love blame, and cannot abide blameless reasons.

[WCLinolVir]

96. I say this with all due respect, maybe a visit to your doctor might be in order.

If you are taking meds, he may be able to adjust your dosage. If I were you I might consult a neurologist as well. Just show him your posts.

[Ruby the Liberal]

13. A Ron Paul supporter?

Wanting free education?



Oh, and welcome to DU.

[Martin Eden]

17. The Socialist Ideal puts ownership of business in the hands of the people, not corporations

Universal Education is something we already do half-way, and half-assed.

I'm not advocating the elimination of privately owned, for-profit business.

I'm saying our capitalist economy would function much better for everyone if we invested more in Education than in prisons and the military.

[cyberswede]

36. Are you a high school student?

You mentioned "my high school," so I wondered.

[cyberswede]

39. I wish you well in college.

And I hope the economy is much improved by the time you're prepared to enter the workforce.

But I disagree that properly funding our schools wouldn't make a significant difference.

[morningfog]

50. Ah. That explains so much.

I wish you the best as you learn. You have so much ahead of you.

[Dragonfli]

74. Then I commend you for diving right in and joining in the discussion

I hope this experience helps you in two ways.

1. I hope you learn something, anything, or even many things. Read what everyone posts to you carefully and decide for yourself if it makes sense, but remember, research is your friend.
2. I hope this experience helps you to grow a thick skin rather that scaring you into timidity, we can't hurt you from a keyboard and if you could hurt one of us that way then that "one of us" has a skin so thin as to require being encased in cushioned gauze and placed gently on a pile of pillows.

In truth I will be dead before very pressing problems are solved unless they are solved very , very quickly.

You, quite unfairly IMO, and your entire generation will bear the worst effects of these very pressing problems that assholes my age or older are responsible for creating, and melodrama intended, I am very fully convinced that if your generation does not implement solutions or find and then implement those solutions your generation will be among the very last, if not the very last.
For that, I very sincerely apologize because it is obvious you have not been around long enough to have done anything to deserve such a burden.

Good luck

[Rhiannon12866]

77. Very well said and that's my hope, too

I still learn something new here every single day. Good to see you, my friend. Hope you're doing well...

[Dragonfli]

91. It is something I felt deeply, and meant sincerely, thanks

Always good to see you, I love that you manage to understand the severity of the problems and care just as deeply if not more so and yet still manage to be so good natured and likeable, it is a great part of your nature and shows great depth of character.

I am a good survivor, but my health and mood have suffered greatly over the years, I am becoming a bit too angry (understatement) and have lost a great deal of patience and character. I think most of those good parts died with my wife, we were very much a combined entity, more like two halves than two people and most of the good stuff came with her and died with her I'm afraid.

I will continue to be the angry elder Simpson yelling at the clouds to use that anger in the hope that even if I piss people off, I will awaken at least a few.

It will only be until such a time that two halves again become whole, a far more enlightened being that I miss and can never hope to ever be alone. This requires faith that souls exist beyond corporeal being, I am not too terribly sure that is the case, I am not really a faith based entity, but I have a similar lack of faith that endings are quite so permanent, I know that I don't know.

[Rhiannon12866]

98. Thank you so much...

That's certainly one of the nicest compliments I've ever received. I guess I've been here long enough that not much gets to me, and, if it does, I've learned to step away rather than just reacting.

And another thing I've learned is that none of us can know what's really going on with anyone here. I tend to be sympathetic until I learn otherwise. I know that you've been through a lot, things none of us would wish for, and yet you're still here and still carrying on, which certainly speaks well for you.

I don't know what I believe, either. I sort of thought I knew, but I lost my mother over a year ago, just a terrible accident, so I'm still trying to process that and have trouble accepting what I'd rather not face up to.

And you do tend to influence people more if you appear to be reasonable. I hope that I've managed to appear that way. I have lost my temper more than once here, though it was quite awhile ago, and that made me step back and realize I wasn't doing myself or anyone else any good.

You do have a lot to be angry about and I concede that, but you have so much more than that to offer, and folks on DU have to be some of the most compassionate I've ever encountered. You're certainly not alone, not on DU, nor ever truly separated from the one whom you loved the best. Let her inspire you. Though she was here a short time, she certainly inspired people, and you're still here to carry that on.

[October]

104. Agree. Hoping he/she reads this again and again

This person is young yet - and cannot begin to understand how much has changed since Reagan. Some of us remember being able to afford mortgages, clothing, non-Frankenfood, vacation, cars, insurance, medical treatment, college. -- you know, LIFE, on a middle-income salary. Now? Notsomuch.

Sad how corporations shame their workers, whilst writing all the rules and penalties that they don't have to live by.

[tkmorris]

92. You might want to go read the ToS you agreed to when you joined us

You won't last another 24 hours if you don't.

[Dragonfli]

97. Come on man, he is obviously telling the truth about his age

I don't think he will learn if you put the kid gloves on, but he also will not learn if not exposed to better arguments than he likely has heard and is just repeating, he doesn't know much yet and that silly libertarian bullshit is coming at him from loudspeakers of polluted media constantly from many directions.

argue with him, vehemently if the argument is important and can make the argument, don't pull your punches, but give him a chance to be exposed to something more meaningful than the crap he obviously has been exposed to.

Gotta learn somewhere, better here than the conservative alternatives no?

[Martin Eden]

51. I'm not suggesting we spend another $10 billion on education.

I'm suggesting we spend one hundred times that amount.

The things you mention are real problems and the task before us is immense -- but not insurmountable.

Of course we have to do more than throw money at the problem; we have to make quality education of our young citizens from preschool through college our highest societal value and national priority.

Despite the current problems, there are nevertheless many dedicated teachers who strive and occasionally succeed in making a difference in the lives of their students. Sometimes all it takes is consistent mentoring or one spark or the opening of a door for a developing mind to take one small step (read: giant leap) beyond the circumstances of their home, their peers, their poverty.

We have to make the teaching profession an honored, better compensenated, and attractive career for the best among us -- and demand the best from those in whom our future is entrusted.

The effort to improve the lives of human beings at a young age is more possible and less costly than trying to turn lives around after a failed education. The worst failure of all would be to give up without making the greatest possible sustained effort. We would be resigning ourselves and our country to a downward spiral that ultimately takes us all down.

[Nevernose]

78. I hope, for your sake, that you go to a nice school

Between my wife and me, who are both teachers, I can quickly come up with a few things our schools and school district needs.

Roofs that don't leak.
Reliable air conditioning (the Mojave gets pretty warm).
Paint
Textbooks.
Novels.
Computers.
School supplies.
ELL teachers.
Full day kindergarten.
Special Ed teachers.
Better pay for teachers so we can attract better teachers -- and keep the many good ones we have.
Busses.
Lower class sizes.
More schools to reduce crowding.

If you think that all schools are funded equitably or adequately, I want you to picture this: 55 kids from the hood, some of whom are gang members, in a classroom designed for 25 students. There are 15 textbooks that refer to "our current President, Bill Clinton." 95% of the kids are on free and reduced lunch, the free lunch today is chips and salsa, and you're providing four or five of them with food for the weekend. At the end of the day, you will give one student a ride to the local homeless shelter. Also, all 55 of them (15 of whom are sitting on the floor) are freshman. There is no Sped teacher to help those who are Sped, nor is there an ELL person to help with the roughly 40% who are still learning the language. None of them are at grade level, because there weren't the resources available to help them ten years ago.

Is isn't some feel-good movie, this is my life and the life of thousands of children I've known through the years, and it's the reality in many districts. It's usually not that bad in the suburbs, but many rural and urban schools are far worse off than most people realize.

[Occulus]

81. Parents wouldn't have to buy supplies for the rest of the class for the year, for one thing

And yes, elementary school children are required to bring exactly that these days, and for that purpose. Their parents pay for it. Not the schools.

Every child in America could go to school under a program like the Kalamazoo Promise, for another.

We could build or rebuild state-of-the-art technology into every classroom in every school in every state, for another. We could- and should- demolish and rebuild a whole lot of the schools themselves while we're at it.

I don't think you really comprehend what's possible with such an unimaginable sum of money. This is common; many Americans think NASA is "expensive" in relation to the national budget (wrong wrong wrong, by the way- NASA's budget is a straw in a tornado by comparison). These sums are beyond belief, literally more money than any one person can possibly comprehend the potential of. So on that one point, you're forgiven- it's literally beyond your understanding.

The answer is, we spend less money on education now than we should, by a very great chasm of difference between what our schools have and what they actually need. No, money does not translate into competent teaching, nor does it directly lead to actual learning. But you can't do either one effectively when you're asking parents already stretched too goddamned thin to scrape a little more butter from the empty plastic tub.

[Bucky]

113. I'm a teacher. I don't think you know very many.

Are you in high school right now? I'm sorry if you have teachers that mostly talk about themselves. In the school I teach at, that doesn't go on. No one's "making friends" with students, although effort is made to make classrooms learning-friendly environments. We cover a shit-load of content every day in my class. In fact, I think the state has dumped more than a reasonable learning load on my kids in my content area (world history). Your grievance, with all due respect, sounds like it's based on anecdotes, or episodes from a TV show, rather than from a reliable survey of current teaching practices.

[Dragonfli]

21. You talk about socialist ideals and imply libertarians are behind expressing them?

You are, excuse me, one "dumb fuck example", that proves the point of the message.

With only a very minimum of education you would know that Ron Paul libertarianism is about the closest thing to the exact opposite of socialism within our country. Right libertarianism is one of the most fascistic political belief systems here in the US at this moment in history.

Just as a fun little project try looking up the word antonymous and ponder it.

[JackInGreen]

25. You have set a stellar

example of that last problem you've mentioned, have a great day and I hope your stay is not long.

[Dragonfli]

42. Sorry I AM an asshole, I should fix that someday. I like to state exactly what I think

without worrying too much if it hurts someone's feelings, it is a horrible character flaw I have developed these past dozen or so years because, I believe, right or wrong (and I could be wrong) things are getting exponentially worse for this country and the world in general, leaving us much less time to repair things than we actually have. I simply think we have run out of time for politeness, coddling those in denial, or showing sensitivity towards either fanatical hero worship or apathetic quietism. It shows, and people rightly are offended by me quite often.

Take a moment and think, perhaps accidentally you are making a huge error in judgment regarding the possible motives and/or intentions of the author of this cartoon.

No, it does not make any sense at all to claim or believe that "Libertarians are usually the ones complaining about this shit" and it is a really uninformed assumption "that one of them would write something like this."

They rail against what the author appears to think about the value of universal free education and support of the population, again it is like an anti-libertarian complaint, in fact, it would be far more reasonable to assume a Ron Paul supporter would be disgusted by this cartoon. They like to complain, sure, but their complaint would be the exact opposite of this IMO valid and reasonable complaint about our nation's attitude towards education.

Their toon would make the argument that we are hurting our country by spending any money at all for education, and would claim it is the responsibility of each individual, no matter their resources, to find a way by God to to educate themselves! Perhaps make a clever invention and get rich enough to be able to afford some private, completely for profit university, even tho one would probably need an excellent education to create such a clever profit making thing before they get rich and can thus afford that education. They are not only selfish, they are a bit crazy, and their theories are pretty damn stupid any way you look at them.

This is the closest I have come to making an apology here in probably 7 or 8 years, so feel coddled and comforted by that rare honor.

[Dragonfli]

56. Oh no, not at all! Feel free to judge me all you want, many do and find me a complete asshole.

I just think your judgement will likely waste our time unless you make some sort of logical argument in support of that judgement. Hell, we need to find solutions and completely disagreeing with me, with some sort of intelligent argument may help to find some idea small or large that may help us avoid complete domination by world wide profit driven greed that reduces 99.9% of the world population to starving, disease ridden modern serfs with no hope of avoiding worldwide extinction. An extinction that will likely be the result of providing this profit by destroying anything necessary, no matter how essential to survival, in pursuit of one more dollar in some multi-billionaire's ledger.

Please, and don't spare my "feelings".

[MrMickeysMom]

69. I think you have to have a plausible argument, Starkiller...

You perhaps are a bit young and certainly inexperienced in presenting the argument against investing in education because the outcome of that investment will greatly contribute to a democratic society, not the smarmy bullshit that spewed forth since Kennedy's dream died with him... certainly the kind of workforce who will help mankind sustain itself and make your children proud of you.

The cartoon is not funny... it's meant to hold a fucking mirror up to all of us here... it's about at realistic as it gets. The fact that it offends you is puzzling, but then, you are probably don't understanding, so instead of feeling insulted, why don't you just think about it.

I hope you learn from others. If you get stung, consider it a favor, because you've got a lot to learn about what we've pissed away for too long, which is an investment in taking care of a society who pay it forward to future generations.

[Dragonfli]

83. You made a very good point there

"Giving boatloads of money to schools won't really improve the system unless the groups I listed actually give a shit about the system." that is what I meant by "apathetic quietism and I agree with you, it is one of the things that pisses me off, it should piss you off (maybe not as much as it does a grumpy old fuck like me, you are too young for that).

A point that you might consider as well, whereas it is true that Gov and money cannot solve the problem if very few give a shit about anything, it may very well also be true that without the help of the resources you will need, again, you will not be able to solve the problem, IMO it will take both money and motivation.

Consider for a moment that those needed resources appear to be mind bogglingly expensive on the scale needed to help, it will take a pooling of resources to accomplish it. You mentioned in one of your posts that you lean a bit socialist, this pooling of resources is the core of that philosophy, and socialists believe that is what, among other things, a healthy government is used for. You may or may not believe this yourself, it is something you must decide for yourself, but it is at least a reasonable belief. Can you agree it is somewhat reasonable?

[Occulus]

85. When those parents get home at 3AM from their second job

I'm sure they'll have all the energy in the world to care.

Not that it'll do any good. The kids are asleep and wake up in a few hours. If their homework isn't done, there's nothing TO be done. That's that.

Did you ever wonder if maybe, just maybe, if we straightened out the nation's economic situation, those same parents might be able to work ONE job each, instead of two, because it pays enough to support a family, and would then have enough time to be home when their kids got out of school, so they could BE THERE FOR THEM?

Fun fact: many parents raising children in school, parents who work minimum-wage jobs, DO NOT KNOW from one week to the next whether or when they'll be working, that it may not be the same shift they worked this week, or that they'll know IF they're working that day IF they get a phone call by the time the shop closes up?

Do economic factors affecting these families you're spitting on with such enthusiasm even enter into your equation at all? Parents can't be there for their kids to help with their homework if their boss tells them with no warning that it's third shift this week, you know.... and parents can't plan for school concerts or parent-teacher conferences or ANYTHING else when they don't know from one week to the next what their hours are, AND THAT'S THE BEST JOB IN TOWN, AND THEY WERE LUCKY ENOUGH TO BEAT FIFTY OTHER APPLICANTS FOR IT.

[Warren Stupidity]

27. Youse misspelled oldyurp.

[Occulus]

29. And derp.

I'm surprised it didn't say EMAHGHERD on top of it.

[pscot]

30. Enoy your brief visit here

[L0oniX]

33. Enjoy your stay here. n/t

[Arugula Latte]

80. Truth hurts, huh?

Enjoy your stay here at the DU.

[WCLinolVir]

89. Blah, blah, what did you say? Remove the south??

Like that would solve our problems. Socialist ideals are not what drives an investment in education. I don't see anyone just bitching about America, I see valid issues being raised about our priorities here. And by the way, Europe is better in many regards.

[Warren Stupidity]

105. It was a bet on how many members could be insulted in one post.

[steve2470]

116. Ok you're still here from what I see and you're still 16 or 17 or 18 years old from what you say

Your age

My son is 17, so I can relate to you that way.

Despite the rough welcome you've gotten, try to keep an open mind and learn all you can here. If you acknowledge that you are ignorant (we all are, to some degree about something) and that you've made mistakes in your statements, you will find a nice home here.

If you double and triple down on your ignorance and lack of reasoning, you will be booted very swiftly.

Don't get booted. Obey the TOS at http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice

Learn. Apologize when necessary. Best wishes.

[marble falls]

117. So annoying trumps the truth.

[valerief]

121. Go play with your gun. nt

[zeemike]

7. Nope. not funny at all.

But completely and tragically true.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

10. Why? Ideology has triumphed over reason and common sense. nt

[Bucky]

114. Thank you.

I think we're living in a post-practical world. Policy makers live in a world without consequences.

[mindwalker_i]

11. Who needs an education

When you've got TV?

[L0oniX]

34. ...and video games. n/t

[mindwalker_i]

41. At least with video games, you're interacting with it

as opposed to just sucking it down.

[DirkGently]

14. Excellent. (nt)

[TheDebbieDee]

15. Bill Clinton said often during his 1992 Presidential campaign that it is cheaper

to send a person to college than to send that person to prison.

Twenty years later, it would be cheaper to send a person to college for 4 years than to send that person to prison for 1 year. It pisses me off that repukes would rather spend $ to send our soldiers half way around the world to kill people than to $ dollars providing health care to Americans.

[CrispyQ]

44. Yes, but when you send a person to college for 4-6 years,

you don't make as much profit as when you send them to prison for 20-to-life.

Adding a for-profit motive to lock up our fellow citizens is anti-democratic. But since Reagan, anyone using the social safety net is scum. We have an incredibly punitive mindset, where most Americans think that anyone locked up deserves it & of course, something like that would never happen to them.

[Rex]

23. Plutocracy always trumps democracy.

Profit always trumps social equality. And when your government, corporations and media all are owned by the same people - you don't get to say when enough it enough. They do.

Ya not a joke, just the truth.

[burrowowl]

46. K&R!!!!!

Yup! Idiot Murians!

[woo me with science]

47. And it's happening under Democrats as well as Republicans.

Our system is hopelessly corrupt.

[snooper2]

53. The population of Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark combined are ~25.5 million

The US population is around ~315 million



Comparing the work and money required to rebuild a 1974 Fiat convertible versus restoring a 57' Chevy

[Occulus]

86. Direct question: 10% of the annual budget of the Department of Defense = ?

Follow-up: What could be done to benefit all of us with that 10%?

How about 15%?

Take your time. Any honest answer will refute the pathetic excuse you just made. We're both better and more capable than your laughable insinuation.

It's people who think we aren't who are near the core of all of these problems we face.

Which are you?

[snooper2]

87. Yes we can afford single payer..

Will it look like Finland, probably not. Use Canada for an example. That's pretty close to the system we need.

comparisons matter----

Also, 10% of the defense budget should be going to research into new nuclear fusion reactors FYI

[Occulus]

88. Lockheed may well have built a working IEC device capable of generating net power

Their timeline for the first production unit matches Bussard's Polywell design, including target date for bringing the first one online, as well as what physical description Lockheed gave. I'm confident we will have fusion power generation within five to six years.

Single payer is one thing we could afford. A system guaranteeing four years of higher education if a b c are met to high school graduates nationwide would be another possibility.

As I said in another post to this thread's pet troll, the sums we're talking about here are truly vast, almost beyond the ability of any one human being to allocate, or even comprehend the true size of. It's an abstraction to most of us, something we'll never ever come into contact with in a single lump. Hell- we have people right here on DU who think NASA gets too much money and we can't afford it any longer, and NASA's budget is a teaspoon from the Pacific ocean. Yet on every last NASA thread I read here, there's always at least one complaining that NASA gets too much money.

That only shows people complaining about government funding for this or that project or department or whatnot really don't understand the numbers involved. It's a problem, and one that needs to be dealt with if we're ever to get people to understand just how much money this country truly has at its disposal.

[Gravitycollapse]

93. There is no mechanism that can convert energy at greater than 100% efficiency.

And in fact it is practically impossible for conversion to come close to 100% efficiency.

So there is no such device you speak of.

[Occulus]

95. I didn't say that.

I said "net power". Two different animals; this actually is possible, and Lockheed claims to have a design that will work.

Of course it won't be 100% efficient. That's impossible. It will, however, generate more power than is required to turn it on and sustain the fusion reaction, and that's kind of the point.

[Gravitycollapse]

101. Ah, alright now I see what you meant. Apologies.

I tend to get overly defensive when it comes to laws of physics.

[Rex]

132. New laws or just old ones?

[Warren Stupidity]

106. So we should enjoy economies of scale and have lower per capita costs.

Was that your point?

Perhaps you want to elaborate on how a social safety net is not only affordable but appears to increase prosperity at 30million, but is unworkable at 300million. Where exactly is the tipping point?

[Bucky]

115. Ha!

Well played, sir

[Posteritatis]

136. Apparently the tipping point is 15 degrees West or something. (nt)

[Posteritatis]

135. So? Are you implying both have the same amount of resources to work with or something? (nt)

[tinrobot]

137. Why does having more people make it harder for us to educate people?

I don't get the logic.

We have a higher per capita income than all of those countries, except maybe Norway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita

And all of those countries have a higher cost of living index than us...
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jsp

So each person in the US has more money and spends less of it to live. That should make it relatively easier to get an education, not harder.

[Liberal_in_LA]

54. k&r

[treestar]

55. So their rich don't own their politicians?

What keeps us hopeless is that in spite of being able to elect our representatives, we still have no say. Just what is that? A lack of belief in democracy?

[Dreamer Tatum]

61. Scandinavia: When You REALLY Need to Feel Smug. nt

[galileoreloaded]

63. r vs. K

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

65. "America is the first country to have gone from barbarism to decadence without the usual intervening

"America is the first country to have gone from barbarism to decadence without the usual intervening period of civilization." - Oscar Wilde

[Starry Messenger]

66. It's Spring Break this week!

Don't feed the you know whats that are off on vacation.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

71. Nothing like a family gathering to bring out the reason we'll never be rid of idiots.

Tells me the same thing after every run in with a cousin or two. Too much money in the hands of those without ethics or morals brainwashing our bigots.

[Mr.Pain]

82. Total agreement

The strength of the people is the Strength of the nation. Healthy people = healthy nation, educated people = intelligent nation, strong people = strong nation. Where would we be if... we spent more on our future generations than we spend on making war?

[Douglas Carpenter]

84. thanks ... saving this one for facebook

[MiddleFingerMom]

103. !!!

.
.
.

.
.
.

[Javaman]

110. we as a nation suffer from glutenous stupidity. nt

[99Forever]

112. Correct, no punchline...

.. just more authoritarian fail coming our way. I'm lucky, I won't live much longer, but the shame that is the legacy we leave behind haunts me.

It didn't have to be this way.

[malaise]

118. There is a punchline Bucky

This is presented as the model for the rest of the world to follow

[valerief]

120. Oh, there's a punchline, well, a punch. We keep getting it in the face from our

elected official puppets and the armed goons who protect the 1%.

[PotatoChip]

122. Excellent OP. Thank you Bucky. n/t

[olegramps]

128. There is only one solution, just one to our present disaster, elect Democrats.

It is IMPERATIVE that the Republicans are defeated in every election, be it local, state or federal. They are obstructionists that have brought the nation to the brink of collapse. They have engineered the massive transfer of wealth to the top 10% while impoverishing the working class.

I would like to remind Americans that until the Civil War the government was totally financed by tariffs. The Founders realized one fundamental economic truth. For a nation to be successful and its citizens a measure of economic stability, the country must be self sustaining. When corporations are allowed to outsource manufacturing to take advantage of virtual slave labor wages not only without any reprisals, but with tax breaks, the wellbeing of the working class was doomed.

Unfortunately, much of what has transpired has been the result the working class swallowing the propaganda that unions were their enemy, tariffs were anti-productive, and they would be well taken care of by a benevolent management. The fact is they allowed themselves to be taken for a ride to the poor house. It is not the fault of the Global Economy, its the same old greed that enslaved American workers until Roosevelt overturned laws prohibiting unions and laid the foundation for the greatest transformation in the well fare of the working class in the history of mankind.

[felix_numinous]

131. We waited too long

and didn't nip the consolidation of power while it was quietly growing behind the scenes. With the purchase of media, people were being distracted and programmed while these people changed the rules in order to steal the country out from under us, and continue to do so.

Most people here agree with the separation of church and state--but we also need the separation of military, corporate, press, and the banks from political (people represented) power.

This consolidation is like a check in chess--just when we make progress in one area (lets say a social victory), we get hit from another area (an unnatural ecological disaster). The question remains, can the American people realize on time that we CAN check mate these people if we all unify and dedicate ourselves to one cause?

We have GOT TO STOP allowing them to bait us into fighting with each other--RECOGNIZE it--because they WANT us to fight with each other--instead of channeling our anger in a collective way to resist and change this power structure.

We must find a way to break up this consolidated power because it has become sociopathic, before they destroy any more life.

[napoleon_in_rags]

134. rec #314!

Wow, this message is resonating with every one. Great post.

I agree, its at a crisis point. Another thing I see happening is the true devaluation of degrees. They've created a culture where its no longer as strongly correlated with intelligence or competence. As the schools are forced more into the realm of having economic necessity as their prime motivation, they are compelled to award degrees to those with money, rather than those with academic greatness. The long term result is the devaluation of the meaning of a degree, to the point where it indication a more expensive employee but not necessarily a more intelligent or competent one. A devalued symbol of class status more than of knowledge and skills.

[kurtzapril4]

138. Love the cartoon.

Don't love the fact that I feel like I'm hearing 1/2 of a phone conversation, vis a vis all of auto-removed posts. Oh well.

[smirkymonkey]

140. K&R