I think social promotion in schools is absolutely wrong...

[srican69]

There is an art to using shame and fear ( just as there is in praise and motivation) to make students work hard .... and schools should be allowed to practice it.

In the schools in my city - it doesn't matter how badly the students are struggling .. they are not made to repeat a year... and they get to stay with their group... and net result is that the high school is rated 2/10 (greatschools.org) while my taxes are touching 9000/year...


If this isn't fixed .. I need to get the hell out my town ....

[el_bryanto]

1. What is the argument in favor of social promotion ? nt

[srican69]

2. must be some positive reinforcement only crap justification to cover up

need to reduce school costs

if it takes an extra year to educate a student - then it is more resources a district has to spend on that kid and less else where.

[upaloopa]

4. Spending is not allocated to particular students.

There is a budget and schools live within its limits. Whether a kid passes or not doesn't increase or decrease the spending.

[el_bryanto]

5. You haven't gone and researched what the argument is?

How can you argue sensibly if you don't know what the other side of the issue is? I'm not an education expert but I'm capable of imagining some potential positive effects from social promotion.

[AverageJoe90]

11. Not to mention that shame & fear is pretty much a favorite Republican tactic anyhow.....

I was fortunate enough to go to a high school which didn't seem to emphasize that crap, but I do realize that it's fairly common in my part of the country.....it also probably helps to explain why Mississippi ranks among the worst in education as well....

[upaloopa]

3. Taxes for schools are property taxes based on appraised value

I don't see the connection between you taxes and promoting students to the next level. What is the connection?

[Pale Blue Dot]

6. With all due respect, I would like to see your evidence that "shame and fear" work in education.

I am a middle school teacher, and every year we have this debate about our students. Let me tell you what the evidence shows: if a student is struggling enough to be eligible for retention, neither retention NOR social promotion works for that student; there is likely to be more going on in that student's life than repeating a grade can fix.

But do you know who retention does affect? All of the students in the retained student's classroom. That "shame and fear" you're talking about often leads to misbehavior in the classroom, which can distract or infect younger students. So the retained student will, most likely, do no better while negatively impacting the educations of others.

Are you a teacher?

[srican69]

7. i have no data to back my claim ... but I think its fair to say that fear of failure drives a lot of

people to work hard.


and with regards to misbehaving students .. they should have no place in a class room .. and be suspended until they can get they can get themselves to behave

[Sharpie]

10. +1

[IdaBriggs]

13. So let me get this straight: Children who are *used* to failing, who have no

Last edited Mon Apr 1, 2013, 03:31 PM - Edit history (1)

role models for success, who see *no benefit* to an education because they are living in poverty/don't know anything else, are going to *magically* be driven to "work hard" because -- why? "A fear of failure?" When they have nothing to compare their lives to *except* failure? Regardless of such crazy things as learning disabilities, poverty, lack of sleep, or other problems usually caused by problems outside the control of your average public school teacher (which you know nothing about, since you are NOT actually *informed* about, because you aren't an educator, or somebody who bothers to research the actual impact - positive or negative - about social advancement) -- HUH?

And you further propose that children who "misbehave" should be deprived of an education, because what we *really* want is a bunch of uneducated juvenile delinquents with nothing to do hanging out on our streets, getting an education about the benefits of "hard work and reward" from the local drug dealers instead, right?

Are you out of your freaking mind? Do you not understand the concept of "throwing the baby out with the bath water?" Do you *get* that the only people who understand the value of an education are the adults in the room, and the average teenager would rather be sleeping in / playing with friends / enjoying a life *instead of* sitting in a classroom having someone babble on about stuff that seems completely NON-RELEVANT to their lives, but which we want them to believe will impact their lives???

We educate children because it is in society's best interests to have an educated populists.

I sincerely hope your ridiculously ignorant post is simply an April Fool's Joke.

Good Day.

I said, GOOD DAY!

[Pale Blue Dot]

14. Thank you. I'd recommend this a million times if I could.

This is yet another in a long line of condescending proclamations from non-teachers presuming to give educators simplistic solutions to incredibly complex problems as if we don't haven't had the brains to think about, study, and try these ideas ourselves by now. Sheesh.

[IdaBriggs]

15. I am hoping it is an April Fools joke.

I'm not a teacher, but it seemed like it had to be a joke - "do this, because I say so, based on no personal knowledge, education or experience" --



It makes me head hurt.

You couldn't PAY ME ENOUGH to be a public school teacher - it is like what my great-grandmother always said about being a "step-parent" :

"If your step-children fail, it is because of you; if they succeed, it is in spite of you. You cannot win."

Change it from "step-parent" to teacher, and "step-children" to students, and you get the commonly accepted myth of "teacher responsibility."

Add in the pay cuts, a few extra special needs students with no additional resources in the class rooms, a recession that hits already economically depressed areas the worst, teaching to a test that not everyone student has a chance in hell of passing, and I become convinced most teachers are in it more because of a passionate calling than because of the money.

End Rant (says the non-teacher).

[Pale Blue Dot]

17. I teach because I love the job and love my students (even the challenging ones)

You're right, however - it's frustrating to think about the number of things I can't control, and these past few years have been especially tough due to the scapegoating of teachers and the interference of people who have never taught. But when I have a group of students in front of me, in my classroom, I do have some positive control and influence, even if it's just for an hour a day.

[zipplewrath]

18. Some maybe

"Alot" maybe not so much, if you mean "most" anyway.

Shame a fear tend to make people defensive, which doesn't always result in high correlation to correcting personal defects.

People are "failing" for some reason and better we determine what they are and address them.

"Social promotion" is a bit of an oxymoron. Tagging a kid for remedial course work in some area of study (most likely reading and writing, but possibly math) is probably a good step, but that often doesn't represent the majority of their school work. Albeit, these fundamental short comings may significantly affect other areas of study.

"Holding someone back" may work in the first couple of years, especially if they are already the "youngest" in their classes. But if they are not, you are buying into a whole lot of other social issues that will be very dominant at times (size, social structures, etc.). Once one is in about 9th grade or so, no one is on any kind of rigid track, and the definition of what "grade" they are in is fairly pointless. The question is whether they will have enough credits/classes for a diploma (or pass state tests). So it would seem we are basically discussing 2 - 8th grade. There is plenty of time in there for a student to "catch up" so to speak, as long as the reasons for their struggles are identified. The problem with either social promotion or retention is that if the underlying cause is NOT identified, there is little that will help. Expecting the student to figure it out is probably a sure fire way of failing the vast majority of them.

[HereSince1628]

21. And it drives the anxious-dependent students toward dx's of anxiety disorders

Anxious dependent students are commonly 25% of a class.

If you know a student very well, you might be able to use that student's anxiety, but when you suddenly trip 6-8 students into highly anxious states, you get disruption and lose control of the classroom.

[msongs]

8. imagine a second grade class room full of 18 year olds. boggles the mind nt

[AverageJoe90]

9. I'm sorry, but.....

FORCING struggling students to repeat a grade.................almost never works; that's a huge part of the reason why Dubya's pet "No Child Left Behind&quot an ironic name if there ever was one!) legislation was criticized by so many.

And shame & fear? You can forget about that shit, because it won't work with most kids who really are having trouble succeeding(except perhaps those with masochistic tendencies, of which I admit there are certainly a few). What THOSE kids need is quality help and quality materials.

[SomethingFishy]

12. Oh yes shame and fear are exactly what students need...

I had a teacher shame me in front of the whole class the 6th grade. Over a bit of unfinished homework. I never forgot that vicious asshole. I never forgot his name and I never forgot what he did to me. I ran into him about 30 years after the fact. I asked him if he remembered me. He had no clue who I was or what I was talking about. You see he had done it to so many kids, so many times, that it was just another day for him.

A few years later a musician told my story in a song..

"When we grew up and went to school there were certain teachers who would hurt the children in any way they could...
By pouring their derision upon anything we did, exposing every weakness, however carefully hidden by the kids...
But in the town it was well known when they got home at night their fat and psychopathic wives would thrash them within inches of their lives!!!!"

Yeah shame and fear. It's a hell of a plan.

[Matariki]

16. Only a sadist would talk about an 'art' to shame and fear

That's just weird and wrong.

[pnwmom]

19. If there is an "art to using shame and fear" I don't trust the schools to be able to exercise it.

Maybe there's a good reason for holding some students back, but not this one.

[talkingmime]

20. Let me share something with you about that.

I grew up in "open space" schools. The elementary school (not counting K) had four levels: 1st, 2nd, 3rd/4th and 4th/5th. Their rhetoric was that those who stayed in the 3rd/4th area weren't being held back. Everyone knew that was bullshit and it was a stigma for the ones who didn't make it into the top eschelon.

I don't give a rats ass about school ratings. They're bullshit. The school districts with the most money get more money and the school districts with the least money get less money. It's about as fucked up and backwards a system as you could possibly come up with. It's designed to instill a feeling of failure.

It's also blatantly racist. Moving won't help, it's like that everywhere. Corbett wants to force low-performing schools to pay for bussing kids to high performing (translation: white) districts and on top of that force them to PAY the other districts for the tuition. Talk about regressive!!!

As a specific example, kids in Harrisburg would be bussed to Camp Hill (almost entirely white) and it would suck about $9-12K/year out of the already struggling Harrisburg schools for every student. Camp Hill is about as well funded as you get - anywhere in the country. They don't need the money. It's about destroying the public school system and replacing it with private schools (which suck, but funded Corbett's campaign).

Yes, Corbett is an evil fuck, but it's going on all over the country. When you hear "school choice" it translates into "no choice". The GOP will not stop until public education has been destroyed and their corporate sponsors own everything. Mark my words on that one.

[pnwmom]

22. I agree. This is all about supporting privatization by causing the schools to fail -- or at least,

to appear to be failing.