Is it violence to throw back non-lethal weapons?

[Earth_First]

Do you consider it violence to throw back non-lethal crowd dispersal weapons at law enforcement?

I am not talking creating your own, rocks, bottles, improvised devices, etc.

I am talking throwing back non-lethal devices such as tear gas canisters that have been utilized against previously non-violent citizens...

[RC]

1. No. It is self defense.

If this is in reference to Oakland, the violence is being perpetrated by the law enforcement.

[Scootaloo]

2. Good luck convincing DU'ers of this

The belief seems to be that the people on the streets should get mangled by the cops because it's "good PR," according to the people chugging faygo and eating moonpies behind their keyboards.

The only violence being perpetrated is by those filthy protestors, causing so much injury to those precious, innocent sidewalks and buildings! They barely had a chance to live, you monsters! property is more important than people!

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

22. Perhaps a bit more contemplation on ethics and morals is needed.

Having said that, let me be clear that I don't condone the actions of the cops in any way, quite the opposite.

If I have to prove myself, lets just say that I support the Occupy movement all the way. I have been active and on the front lines, so to speak, since 1961 in the civil rights and anti-war movements and lately helped organize and took part in Occupy protests in our town.

Don't be quick to judge someone sitting "behind their keyboards", just because they might not agree with everything you have to say.

Occupy needs to grow and become a worldwide movement, to do that, it needs to win the hearts and minds of a lot more people, it's going to be a long haul and it's not just about being reactionary and fighting the cops on the streets.

Yes, the press will lie, yes, the police will be violent, yes, it will take time, and yes, it will be unjust, but did I assume to much when I thought that you knew all that?

We ARE the 99%
Occupy everywhere!

[Scootaloo]

25. I'm not judging for not agreeing with me

I'm judging the pretentious cocksmacks who think that protestors should get their faces kicked in because it fulfiles the 101st keyboard legion's fantasies of being "activists."

Judgement is allowed, you know.

[Zalatix]

34. Yeah, good luck convincing me of THAT argument

seeing as I already AGREE with it.

[Earth_First]

4. I'd prefer this to be as broad as possible...

It seems that a lot of opinions have already been drawn on Oakland specifically, so I'd like to keep this as general as possible.

[mike_c]

3. violence in self defense....

eom

[kctim]

5. Without a doubt.

And no question about it.

[Rex]

6. Is the intention to injure law enforcement

or to just get the canister away from people out of safety concerns? Intent matters.

[Earth_First]

8. If it were *me* in that situation...

I would be inclined to throw it back as a result of public safety, not in a manner in which to hurt law enforcement agents.

Which; might I add are armed and protected to the teeth anyways...

[hack89]

11. If you throw it somewhere where there are no people

then it would be ok in my opinion. Throwing it back at the cops does raise the issue of intent - if a cop gets hurt then you will be in big trouble.

[Earth_First]

14. I'm sorry, but I'm throwing it back where it came from...

They are fully protected, head to toe; and beyond.

I'm not going to throw it anywhere where the average civilian has the potential of coming in contact with it.

[hack89]

18. Then it is an act of violence

pray you are lucky.

[Rex]

12. Same here.

That thing might explode (could be defective) and hurt people.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

7. Sitting down and remaining silent is a very powerful tactic.

But I don't expect many to understand why.

[Scootaloo]

27. No it's not, and I'm certain you have no explanation to back up your claim

I get ill when I see so many people claiming to be activists, and advocating nonsense shit like that. "Sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up, it'll work!" - Maybe if you're trying to make it easier to arrest you while getting nothing real accomplished, sure.

Friend, I hate to spoil your self-righteous back-patting, but... this isn't a movie. There aren't any soaring instrumentals to go with your defiant sitting-down, the cops aren't going to get a dawning look of realization, and no one is going to stand up and do the fucking slow clap for you. No single tears will be shed for you, you will not get into the headlines, all that happens is you get pepper spray in the face, zippers around your limbs, and some 250-pound testosterone junkie cramming his knee into your windpipe.

Why? because the system you are working against does not give a flying fuck about you. It does not give a flying fuck if you are sitting or standing. It doesn't give a flying fuck if you're walking or kicking. it doesn't give a flying fuck if you're blowing bubbles or blowing up a bus, because so far as it is concerned, you are an enemy to be destroyed, utterly and completely. Ground out, exterminated, and purged. You, and every other person that thinks like you.

That is the situation we are looking at. We are not looking at a Hollywood story of misguided-yet-reasonable men and women who, if we just talk to them, they will come around. No, we are looking at a group of people who knowingly and happily make their fortunes through slavery, brutalization, war, murder, and theft. They are fully cognizant of the fact that their prosperity is garnered by exploiting or even destroying the rest of us. Standing in front of them is a paramilitary force of men who, as is increasingly evident, came into their jobs for the sadistic thrill of maybe getting to rape someone with a nightstick and being immune to any legal injunctions from it.

So far, sitting on your ass doesn't seem to have changed any of that, Crabs. Maybe you should try the "shutting up" part now, I'll bet that'll do it.

[hack89]

9. Since "non-lethal" weapons can be very lethal under certain circumstances

I would say yes. Killing a cop by accident serves no good purpose and could put your fellow protestors at risk if the cops decide to retaliate.

[Earth_First]

10. Have you ever handled a live tear gas canister before?

They are extremely HOT

Secondly, have you ever seen the way they are delivered by law enforcement agents?

I highly doubt that a protester is going to kill a cop by throwing a searing hot tear gas canister back...

[hack89]

15. Lots of experience

so burning a cop is any better?

If you have the choice to throw it somewhere where there are no people and you choose to throw it directly at the cops then it has to be perceived as a violent act. Chucking hot pieces of metal at people will never be taken kindly by those on the receiving end.

[Earth_First]

17. So *I'm* supposed to embrace hot pieces of metal?

Hell no, self-defense is self-defense.

They can have it back!

[hack89]

19. All you have done is escalate the violence.

Self defense can be violent and can hurt people.

[sudopod]

32. your concern is noted nt

[hack89]

35. As is your gratuitous snark. nt

[slackmaster]

13. Yes, of course it is. Throwing any object at another person for any reason is an act of violence.

Even if it's done in justifiable self-defense. The only exceptions would be something done in the context of a game like baseball or football, or friendly horseplay.

Violence is not always wrong.

[ManiacJoe]

24. +1

[Yo_Mama]

16. Yes. n/t

[T S Justly]

20. Reciprocal, intent to save lives and and stop injuries? Understandable and acceptable. Wonder if ...

That would have legal standing anywhere, anymore?

[RKP5637]

21. My gut feeling is it will escalate the situation into more police violence.

Then, MSM will air endlessly protesters attacking cops, and the cops will react with more violence depending on the situation and claim they were under attack. Depending on how MSM misconstrues the story, many in the public will side with the cops. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

[Scootaloo]

28. They air that shit anyway

Since they're, you know, wholly owned by the people the protestors are protesting against. We've already SEEN that the media is more than happy to make up any bullshit claim it wants in order to denigrate and attack protestors. So it really doesn't MATTER what the protestors actually do.

If you are attacked, fight back. Because even if you lay there and take it like a good abused spouse, the media will tell everyone that you deserved it ANYWAY.

[RKP5637]

30. Yeah, sadly so true, and your last sentence summed it up well!!! "Because

even if you lay there and take it like a good abused spouse, the media will tell everyone that you deserved it ANYWAY."

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

23. Read what MLK had to say about morals and ethics.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=228358

[ZombieHorde]

26. This is a vocabulary question I guess, since a concrete example was offered.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/violence
vi·o·lence
noun
1. swift and intense force: the violence of a storm.
2. rough or injurious physical force, action, or treatment: to die by violence.
3. an unjust or unwarranted exertion of force or power, as against rights or laws: to take over a government by violence.
4. a violent act or proceeding.
5. rough or immoderate vehemence, as of feeling or language: the violence of his hatred.

Definition one could mean throwing anything, in any direction, is violent, but that is not what the OP means.

Definitions two, three, and four would be a "no."

Definition five could fit, but this is not what the OP means.

I don't think the example is violent.

[unionworks]

29. It doesn't matter

If it is morally right or wrong. Throwing anything at a cop can be a FELONY. I sympathize fully, but for your own sake PLEASE DON'T DO IT. The OPD are going to be on a federal leash soon, and will have to answer to justice. Don't be one of the last of their victims.

[randome]

31. Would you be willing to accept that your action might cause some rookie cop to lose his/her cool...

...and shoot someone? Maybe someone standing next to you?

Setting up a confrontation with the police and refusing to disperse and then throwing things at heavily armed cops? A recipe for a disaster.

[bvar22]

33. It WILL come to that eventually.

The 1% are NOT going to Let Go peacefully.
The situation HERE is very different from the one Gandhi faced.
If the LABOR movement in the USA had not faced this reality,
they would STILL be sitting outside the Company Gates, starving in the rain.


There have already been casualties,
and there will be many more.
I am NOT endorsing violence,
merely acknowledging its existence and historical likelihood.
Please be careful.