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Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:34 PM Mar 2013

Hubby made an observation about 3-D printers

We were supposed to go shooting this weekend but the snow storm that hit our area prevented that. So, while it was fresh in ourminds we were discussing gun control laws and the effect 3-D printers would have in making things like magazine bans impotent. Then, in mid-conversation, he says that 3-D printers were the world that both Marx and Adam Smith were looking forward to.

He said Marx wanted the workers to possess the means of production so they couldn't be held economically captive while Smith promulgated the free market to foster competition, lower prices and better goods. He said with 3-D printers both men get what they wanted and the worker/consumer is the person who will be better off for it.

Not that I feel the need to but I can't think of an argument against this.

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Hubby made an observation about 3-D printers (Original Post) Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 OP
I won't feel free until I have a backpack nuke production line in my basement. nt onehandle Mar 2013 #1
What does that have to do with economic theories? Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 #3
It's more about the kneejerk fear of 3D printers people have been trained to exhibit. Posteritatis Mar 2013 #51
Storing radioactive material at home has its downsides. DetlefK Mar 2013 #4
In your scenario how to you obtain and handle the fissionable materials? Can't print them up in your Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #67
Those who 3D print parts will have to have casting facilities also. Mika Mar 2013 #2
I'm not talking about gun parts Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 #5
It also has great theKed Mar 2013 #14
No, not veering off-topic Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 #15
It'ss my opinion that theKed Mar 2013 #18
"a printer it could be priced ot of the hands of the masses with no real way to stop it" Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 #29
The costs of 3D printers have been plummeting, not rising, for years now. (nt) Posteritatis Mar 2013 #87
Because the designs are theKed Mar 2013 #91
If just about everyone had a printer Politicalboi Mar 2013 #26
*If* just about everyone had a printer Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 #31
and yet the guys who made this gun with 3D printing didn't need metal casting.... TeamPooka Mar 2013 #6
lol. Yes they do. Mika Mar 2013 #7
lol. No they don't. DesMoinesDem Mar 2013 #42
They only made the lower receiver. Clames Mar 2013 #45
Yes, I know. Mika thinks the lower receiver they made was cast in metal. DesMoinesDem Mar 2013 #46
That's not quite how I interpreted that post. n/t Clames Mar 2013 #92
Direct Metal Laser Sintering (DMLS) Overview Mika Mar 2013 #8
You can print an all-plastic magazine kudzu22 Mar 2013 #9
The World of Abundance is not something we have an economics for yet Recursion Mar 2013 #10
But this strikes me as first tangible step of that journey Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 #11
Iain Banks, in his "The Culture" books, pointed out... Lizzie Poppet Mar 2013 #36
There may not be an argument against that idea The2ndWheel Mar 2013 #12
Maybe Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 #13
Well, yeah, sure, there's always that The2ndWheel Mar 2013 #21
I dig what you're saying. It's a sort of Rorshach test of one's ethics and morality. Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 #28
Don't think they can weave cloth and that is one of humanities major Cleita Mar 2013 #16
Well, I'm sure as technology makes more of the means of production available to more people Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 #17
I think you could probably make a loom on one considering the Cleita Mar 2013 #72
My thoughts on the 3-D printer are that it is a shame timdog44 Mar 2013 #19
I Agree, The First Thought About What It Shold Be Used For Should Be Porn Skraxx Mar 2013 #20
Nice to have timdog44 Mar 2013 #23
Happy To Oblige Skraxx Mar 2013 #25
I tried. Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 #33
I know. timdog44 Mar 2013 #34
Thank-you Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 #40
lol Dash87 Mar 2013 #88
Asimov's first law of robotics in his novels Recursion Mar 2013 #41
Sadly. timdog44 Mar 2013 #48
that was my first concern too, but there is a lot of good potential... Blue_Tires Mar 2013 #47
I have followed 3D printing timdog44 Mar 2013 #50
Here's an article on that, with links to others Posteritatis Mar 2013 #61
Thank you. timdog44 Mar 2013 #69
Mostly because people are making the technology about the gun nutbars Posteritatis Mar 2013 #59
Most people I see dragging the discussion to weapons are people afraid of the printers. Posteritatis Mar 2013 #54
I think a lot of the people who drag weapons into the fray timdog44 Mar 2013 #56
My specific use is selfish. timdog44 Mar 2013 #70
Might be surprised. I watched a guy tie shoes with a robotic hand the other day. Posteritatis Mar 2013 #76
It truly is amazing. timdog44 Mar 2013 #77
Except you will be a criminal XRubicon Mar 2013 #22
What law would you be breaking? Recursion Mar 2013 #30
OP stated magazine bans will be impotent against 3d printers XRubicon Mar 2013 #32
The ban as currently countenanced doesn't outlaw their possession or home manufacture Recursion Mar 2013 #35
I guess you win... lol XRubicon Mar 2013 #62
Was waiting for someone else to get it. Ikonoklast Mar 2013 #38
Good grief. If you're so concerned about the gun implications then Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 #43
Things made in 3d printers are much more expensive XRubicon Mar 2013 #71
Once upon a time computers were pretty crappy too. Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 #73
Yes, because of mass production and advances in materials XRubicon Mar 2013 #81
You are, of course, correct but there's no reason to assume that same factor Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 #82
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and I have skirted all efforts to make this a 2A discussion. Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 #39
Are you saying it's illegal to make *anything* at home? (nt) Posteritatis Mar 2013 #53
Just stuff that is illegal... XRubicon Mar 2013 #58
You seem to think "stuff that is illegal" is the main sort of thing these are designed to make. (nt) Posteritatis Mar 2013 #60
What can you make of at least equal quality cheaper than traditional method? XRubicon Mar 2013 #63
Pretty much anything I want made to my own specifications, for starters. Posteritatis Mar 2013 #64
This custom anything will be limited to a few materials and size will be restricted XRubicon Mar 2013 #68
Custom car shops are going to have a field day with those things AngryAmish Mar 2013 #24
Why didn't 2D printers do that to currency? jberryhill Mar 2013 #27
Well, they did, actually, so Treasury had to come up with new bills that are harder to fake Recursion Mar 2013 #37
If I can make a small request Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 #44
Fair enough. How about drugs? Recursion Mar 2013 #49
The only places I've heard regular talk about those are FUD-laden news editorials Posteritatis Mar 2013 #57
I would like to focus on legitimate purposes Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 #66
unfortunately, you can't unpress the gun button around here. unblock Mar 2013 #52
I think we already do own "the means of production." hunter Mar 2013 #55
mostly we don't.... mike_c Mar 2013 #74
Every corporation operating within the USA is a subsidiary of USA incorporated. hunter Mar 2013 #98
3-D Printing is Good for Custom Parts On the Road Mar 2013 #65
"I do like the idea of comparing developments to both Marxism and capitalism." Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 #75
Overstated. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #78
Factories can't produce food either Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 #84
Real estate is the means of food production. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #99
Food production is not the sole industry of human society -- because of technology Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 #101
It'll fuel creativity, but it won't decentralize production. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #104
3D printing started a long time ago. Old and In the Way Mar 2013 #79
I like the idea GiveMeFreedom Mar 2013 #80
unless you can print oil on them d_r Mar 2013 #83
Um...no thanks PopeOxycontinI Mar 2013 #85
As I noted up-thread Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 #89
There's architects working on printable housing right now, actually. Posteritatis Mar 2013 #90
Preach it! Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 #93
Good thing you are wrong about this technology. Clames Mar 2013 #94
Oh, then maybe I'm wrong... PopeOxycontinI Mar 2013 #100
No, it'll create lots of jobs rather. Clames Mar 2013 #102
Sorry, I just don't buy it. PopeOxycontinI Mar 2013 #103
As of now, 3D printing lets the average person MineralMan Mar 2013 #86
I beg to disagree. timdog44 Mar 2013 #95
I've been following it all along. MineralMan Mar 2013 #105
Hate to break it to you Mopar151 Mar 2013 #96
Thank you for an interesting timdog44 Mar 2013 #97

Posteritatis

(18,807 posts)
51. It's more about the kneejerk fear of 3D printers people have been trained to exhibit.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:31 PM
Mar 2013

Depressing, really; it's the only thing some people can see whenever the technology's mentioned.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
4. Storing radioactive material at home has its downsides.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:44 PM
Mar 2013

A few years ago I heard a story about a guy who worked at a research-facility nearby. He stole radioactive material and stored it at home. Eventually he got caught.
The results:
1. He got cancer.
2. His apartment was welded shut. Not decontaminated. Locked down and never to be opened again.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
67. In your scenario how to you obtain and handle the fissionable materials? Can't print them up in your
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 06:04 PM
Mar 2013

basement. So that's a big stumbling block. What's your solution? Or are you just fear riffing?

 

Mika

(17,751 posts)
2. Those who 3D print parts will have to have casting facilities also.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:37 PM
Mar 2013

Many dental labs are using 3D printing now, but it still requires the printed wax/resin part to be cast in metal, and for gun parts they would have to be high density castings with no porosity.

Printing is only half of the job.



Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
5. I'm not talking about gun parts
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:45 PM
Mar 2013

I'm talking about how the means of production are becoming de-centralized and with that decentralization more people who would, once upon a time, be confined to the role of laborer can now see a day when they can own their own means of production for whatever they can best realize.

Concurrently, as more people become producers market cometition brings its best elements with it: lower costs, higher quality, more choices.

And the technology will continue to improve beyond what we see today. It won't just be 3-D printers as we currently see them. I'm thinking this will be a win-win-win scenario.

theKed

(1,235 posts)
14. It also has great
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 01:55 PM
Mar 2013

Third-World potential. With, now, several open-source 3D printers available it can help developing communities without multi-national corporate involvement.

http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Main_Page

Kinda veering off your topic a bit (sorry).

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
15. No, not veering off-topic
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:02 PM
Mar 2013

Actually, you're spot-on.

I'm not opposed to corporations just because they're corporations, they're only as bad or good as the people running them. But you're point about economic independence through open-sourcing and accessibility of the means of production is exactly what I'm addressing.

I hadn't thought about that aspect in the developing world and I think it is an excellent point.

theKed

(1,235 posts)
18. It'ss my opinion that
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:12 PM
Mar 2013

the open source movement is the real driving force behind economic liberation - which 3D printing is a part of. But without freely available, inexpensive means of getting a printer it could be priced ot of the hands of the masses with no real way to stop it.

the Global Village Construction Set, from the link above, once complete, will have 50 fully-open source designs freely available - everything from cement mixers, to industrial robots, to wind turbines, and even an open source car and tractor design.

The other aspect is accessibility of materials. Having a 3D printer is wonderful, but if the material being used in it is withheld, it doesn't do a lot of good.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
29. "a printer it could be priced ot of the hands of the masses with no real way to stop it"
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:18 PM
Mar 2013

If the demand is strong enough someone, somewhere will provide the supply. Demand = dollars, ripe for the taking.

 

Politicalboi

(15,189 posts)
26. If just about everyone had a printer
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:47 PM
Mar 2013

The only thing to sell would be the printers, and the material to print. Your ideas will be copied by neighbors who will make it better or worse. And as far as copying guns, we don't copy money with printers, so they could make it illegal to print guns that kill. Make the printers not be able to print those. Just like speak and spell couldn't say fuck even though you typed it in. LOL!

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
31. *If* just about everyone had a printer
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:25 PM
Mar 2013

I doubt everyone would have a printer or would want one. I'm sure everyone would want a Rembrandt and more-or-less could afford the materials but -- let's face facts -- they lack the requisite talent. There's no shame in that. People have different talents and that's part of what makes people awesome.

The nice thing about open economies is they are pliable. If 3DPs become a significant part of an economy the economy will shift accordingly. Automation didn't kill the need for manual labor, it turned manual laborers into engineers, programmers, operators and service technicans. Less time spent on manual labor meant more time for leisure and those who provide for that as well.

 

Clames

(2,038 posts)
45. They only made the lower receiver.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 04:53 PM
Mar 2013

The rest of it is a combination of aluminum and steel forgings that are machined.

kudzu22

(1,273 posts)
9. You can print an all-plastic magazine
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 01:14 PM
Mar 2013

that functions perfectly. No need for the magazine to be metal. And it's just a matter of time until someone designs an AR-15 lower receiver that can be all plastic.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
10. The World of Abundance is not something we have an economics for yet
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 01:21 PM
Mar 2013

Because we still can only price things based on scarcity.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
11. But this strikes me as first tangible step of that journey
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 01:35 PM
Mar 2013

And thank-you for actually addressing the subject of the OP.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
36. Iain Banks, in his "The Culture" books, pointed out...
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:34 PM
Mar 2013

Iain Banks, in his "The Culture" books, pointed out that in a true post-scarcity society, the entire idea of economics would likely become obsolete. Citizens of The Culture are fond of commenting, when faced with a scarcity society, that "money is a sign of poverty."

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
13. Maybe
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 01:46 PM
Mar 2013

some AI will use the technology to create a race of killer androids that enslave humanity.

I suppose that could be called a downside.

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
21. Well, yeah, sure, there's always that
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:28 PM
Mar 2013

Just practically speaking, there's going to be a downside to it.

We're not talking about a butter knife or something like that. These 3D printers are supposed to change the whole game or whatever, right? If they go to that sort of level, there's bound to be some substantial risks and downsides to the application of this is within physical reality. I think human history shows that quite clearly.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
28. I dig what you're saying. It's a sort of Rorshach test of one's ethics and morality.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:12 PM
Mar 2013

These machines and those like them will ultimately create everything from the useful to the novel to things that just ought not be. Their only limit will be human imagination and people tend to imagine what they desire. Sadly, many desire bad things.

On the hopeful side, however, I see that person with the Next-Big-Thing idea no longer limited by the hunt for venture capital. She wins, her consumers will win and her future employees will win and anyone else among them will be able to create their own Next-Big-Thing.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
16. Don't think they can weave cloth and that is one of humanities major
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:02 PM
Mar 2013

needs, clothing, unless you don't mind wearing plastic tarps, so there are limits. But for some stuff, like tools, it seems to be pretty effective. I suppose you could do a lot kitchen accessories too, like plates and flatware. However if you want to make your own clothes and linens, you can buy a fine loom and put it in your basement, if you have one, and weave away. I suppose with a combination of equipment you could become fairly self-sufficient and not dependent on manufacturing.

The downside though is that manufacturers traditionally were big job producers. However, since that faction has moved to Asia, maybe it's worthwhile looking at means of home production.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
17. Well, I'm sure as technology makes more of the means of production available to more people
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:08 PM
Mar 2013

It won't be just shaped plastic. Or maybe a 3-D printer will create the machine needed to fabicate linens for more people.

I think it's an exciting time we live in.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
72. I think you could probably make a loom on one considering the
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 06:19 PM
Mar 2013

loom components are hard and usually made of either wood or metal. The yarn or thread you'd have to spin yourself although the spinners could be made on it. I have a hand spindle made of wood, but I've seen women use a stick with a DVD disk and still spin effectively. It's just a skill you learn. What you use to make it easier is many and varied.

timdog44

(1,388 posts)
19. My thoughts on the 3-D printer are that it is a shame
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:18 PM
Mar 2013

that first thoughts are of using it as a means to make a killing machine of any kind.

There are so many other very worthwhile pursuits with a printer of this kind. And in that vein it does put free market principles into action. And owner operator businesses making infinite types of widgets, or total products for sale.

Skraxx

(2,977 posts)
20. I Agree, The First Thought About What It Shold Be Used For Should Be Porn
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:24 PM
Mar 2013

Not guns. I want my 3d printed love doll, stat.

timdog44

(1,388 posts)
34. I know.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:29 PM
Mar 2013

Amazing how an original post can go down the tubes so fast. Especially one with promise such as yours.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
41. Asimov's first law of robotics in his novels
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:41 PM
Mar 2013

Was that a robot shall not harm a human being.

Even before Asimov had written those books, though, robots were used in aiming naval guns.

timdog44

(1,388 posts)
50. I have followed 3D printing
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:23 PM
Mar 2013

for some time now.

Medical applications are the first I thought about. I have seen, and I wish I had the site, where they have printed a persons skull as a replacement for that person, due to some trauma. Wonderful. Hope the good news keeps coming.

Also saw where the thinking is to use them in space to print replacement parts and tools. Just amazing the thinking.

Posteritatis

(18,807 posts)
59. Mostly because people are making the technology about the gun nutbars
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:50 PM
Mar 2013

Case in point: most of the reactions in this thread, or any other thread on DU about 3D printing.

Posteritatis

(18,807 posts)
54. Most people I see dragging the discussion to weapons are people afraid of the printers.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:33 PM
Mar 2013

My own plans for when I get one are a lot less controversial, anyway, but I can see more than one application for the things aside from "they will give our enemies power!"

timdog44

(1,388 posts)
56. I think a lot of the people who drag weapons into the fray
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:44 PM
Mar 2013

see an enemy behind every tree and rock, and as you say "it will give power to our enemies". It is the same with any new invention. It can be used for good or evil. There is no stopping 3D printing at this point. And I don't think there is a way to legislate the uses. We can only hope to stay one step ahead and show the good that can come.

timdog44

(1,388 posts)
70. My specific use is selfish.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 06:13 PM
Mar 2013

The technology to give me a new back, is I think, sadly, far enough in the future that I will no longer be here on earth.

Posteritatis

(18,807 posts)
76. Might be surprised. I watched a guy tie shoes with a robotic hand the other day.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 06:59 PM
Mar 2013

I grew up recently enough that I 'should' take that sort of thing for granted, but I'm continuously astounded at the things people are coming up with.

timdog44

(1,388 posts)
77. It truly is amazing.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:06 PM
Mar 2013

I hope for you all the things that are coming.

I have not given up, but at 65, things need to happen quickly. Somethings are a mystery until one day, there it is.

XRubicon

(2,212 posts)
22. Except you will be a criminal
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:30 PM
Mar 2013

I can print 100 dollar bills, make whiskey, grow pot all at home. But I don't, you know why?

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
30. What law would you be breaking?
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:20 PM
Mar 2013

Making a gun or a magazine isn't illegal, unless they scheduled the high capacity magazines under the NFA.

XRubicon

(2,212 posts)
32. OP stated magazine bans will be impotent against 3d printers
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:25 PM
Mar 2013

Besides being clueless of material science and benefits and efficiency of mass production, the post is thinly veiled pro gun propaganda.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
35. The ban as currently countenanced doesn't outlaw their possession or home manufacture
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:34 PM
Mar 2013

Just their sale. Now, scheduling them under the NFA would be different, but even Feinstein was leery of going that far.

Ikonoklast

(23,973 posts)
38. Was waiting for someone else to get it.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:37 PM
Mar 2013

The rest of the post about owning the means of production is nothing but total eyewash; the main thrust was gunner propaganda...."You can't stop us from getting what we want."

Yeah, you'll just be a criminal with contraband, the same as if you fabricated your own fully-automatic fire weapon in a machine shop.



Funny how few saw it.

The other gunners recognized it immediately.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
43. Good grief. If you're so concerned about the gun implications then
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:45 PM
Mar 2013

talk about the economic implications of what 3DPs can do for an economy.

What are the expected results of allowing the means of (non-gun related) production becoming more accessible to more people?

XRubicon

(2,212 posts)
71. Things made in 3d printers are much more expensive
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 06:16 PM
Mar 2013

They are restricted in materials and size.

Great business model, you can make overly expensive things with crappy material properties.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
73. Once upon a time computers were pretty crappy too.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 06:23 PM
Mar 2013

Now look at the industry. Power increases as costs decrease yet it remains highly profitable, employs millions, empowers billions and has yet to reach its zenith. 3DPs are a nascent technology but one that I believe has as much potential.

XRubicon

(2,212 posts)
81. Yes, because of mass production and advances in materials
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:30 PM
Mar 2013

Mass production is why you can afford a good computer.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
82. You are, of course, correct but there's no reason to assume that same factor
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:33 PM
Mar 2013

won't come in to play with decentralizing the means of production through 3DPs and similar technologies.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
39. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and I have skirted all efforts to make this a 2A discussion.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:37 PM
Mar 2013

I think there is much promise to be found in technology that allows people to turn their ideas into the Next-Big-Thing without having to hunt for inaccessible amounts of start-up capital.

My dad was a union carpenter during his early career until he saved up enough to start his own business. But the money he was saving was material prosperity the family had to forego at the time as we looked to better things in the future. We also suffered a near-debilitating setback along the way once he did own his business. Now, a 3DP would not be applicable to my father's trade but the fact that start-up costs can be prohibitive and quash worthy efforts is well-founded. I think 3DPs will alleviate that for many, many people and I think that is an awesome potential to those people and society as a whole.

Posteritatis

(18,807 posts)
60. You seem to think "stuff that is illegal" is the main sort of thing these are designed to make. (nt)
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:51 PM
Mar 2013

Posteritatis

(18,807 posts)
64. Pretty much anything I want made to my own specifications, for starters.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:59 PM
Mar 2013

Custom anything is somewhere between "expensive" and "producers will not even speak to you unless you're an established business," depending on what you're trying to work with.

Got some plans for after I try to pick one up sometime over the next year, not particularly worried about how that's going to work out.

Of course, you've already made up your mind that the only applications they have will be criminal or worthless, so I'm not sure if there's any point in continuing this whole discussion.

XRubicon

(2,212 posts)
68. This custom anything will be limited to a few materials and size will be restricted
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 06:04 PM
Mar 2013

Its going to cost you alot too.

Good luck

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
37. Well, they did, actually, so Treasury had to come up with new bills that are harder to fake
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:35 PM
Mar 2013

A magazine, OTOH, doesn't have to look like or fool anybody; it just has to work.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
44. If I can make a small request
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:48 PM
Mar 2013

and I'm loathe to type this but -- please, no gun references. I'm trying to make this thread about economics.

It's not my place to tell you or anyone else what to speak about but the subject is being used to distract from the intent of the OP.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
49. Fair enough. How about drugs?
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:23 PM
Mar 2013

There are "chemical printers" in the works that will be able to synthesize AZT... Or meth.

Posteritatis

(18,807 posts)
57. The only places I've heard regular talk about those are FUD-laden news editorials
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:49 PM
Mar 2013

Any kind of universal chemical synthesizer is way further out than a printer that works with a handful of bulk materials like even the highest-resolution 3D printers around today. There is nothing close to what you're talking about anywhere near market that isn't falling entirely within large institutional budgets.

Fretting about 3D printers being able to synthesize meth is not only already becoming a tired cliche, it's in the same neighborhood as fretting about the Internet becoming sentient and rebelling against humanity.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
66. I would like to focus on legitimate purposes
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 06:00 PM
Mar 2013

If a chemical printer could bring more life-saving treatments to the consumer I think it would serve to underscore my sense of hopefulness. Obviously, quality control would be an issue.

This leads me to think of an interesting point. What sort of regulatory scheme should we have that maximizes innovation while protecting the consumer from the malicious or negligient?

unblock

(52,250 posts)
52. unfortunately, you can't unpress the gun button around here.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:32 PM
Mar 2013

or would "trigger" be the more appropriate term?

hunter

(38,317 posts)
55. I think we already do own "the means of production."
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:39 PM
Mar 2013

We're simply kept in the dark about it so a few oligarchs can reap unfair benefits.

All the software I use is free. I don't need Microsoft or Apple. Art and music I get directly from the artists. I've got no cable or satellite television, I don't watch network television, I haven't seen a television commercial for a long, long, time. Yet still I live.

I can plant a seed in my garden and it grows.

I think good food, safe shelter, appropriate medical care, and education ought to be everyone's right. Beyond that we ought to have multiple competing economic ecologies, not all convertible to the metric of a single currency.

It's a broken system where the people with money dictate the direction of a society.

Ideally I think we would live in a society where the population is voluntarily declining, and we would live in a world of increasing abundance. The scrapyards of a failed economic system would be our mines. No need to plunder the earth further.

There shouldn't be any homeless people in the USA, there are plenty of empty homes. There shouldn't be any hungry people, there is plenty of food. There shouldn't be any illiterate and uneducated people, there are plenty of people who could teach. There shouldn't be anyone without access to appropriate medical care. Nobody should be without meaningful work, there is much meaningful work to share.

That we still have so many problems tells us our present economic system is a dismal failure.

New technologies like 3D printing, or digital music transfers, won't change the broken economic system, but they will further illuminate its shortcomings.

mike_c

(36,281 posts)
74. mostly we don't....
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 06:41 PM
Mar 2013

Think about the transition to the industrial revolution, because that's primarily what Marx was talking about. Prior to the IR, most manufacturing was small scale craftsmanship. If you needed a chair you went to the woodworker or cabinet maker's shop and he used his tools to build you a chair. If you needed a shovel you went to the smith, who used his forge, anvil, and hammers to make you a shovel. If you needed a shirt, you went to a weaver who used his loom to make your cloth, which you then took to the seamstress or tailor who used their tools to cut and sew the garment. If you needed a violin you went to the luthier, and so on. Sure, you might also buy these items from a merchant, but ultimately they came from workers who owned the means for producing them.

In each case, economic transactions were between the consumer and the owner of the means of production, the tools, skills, experience, and so on. Sure, they might pay rent to someone else, or dues, or license fees or whatever, but they personally owed the means of manufacture. In many cases they acquired them through an apprenticeship process that both taught them their skills and provided them with the means to practice them, i.e. ownership of the means of production.

After the IR, those workers typically relocated to a factory where they ran someone else's machines-- an employment model that is so common today that we take it for granted, but which utterly destroyed a way of life that prevailed prior to the IR. Since they no longer owned those machines, which also made relatively unskilled workers better able to manufacture things that only capable craftsmen could produce previously, the only real commodity workers retained in the market was their time (and to a lesser extent their skills, but when factory owners can make workers compete with one another to work for less, skill often becomes a secondary issue-- employers can teach the limited skill set necessary to run the machines, and job insecurity helps make that worth the employer's while). To this day, most such workers are paid by the hour, and while more skilled workers might make higher hourly wages than less skilled workers, employers still pay them for the hours of their lives rather than for the goods that they produce.

Where virtually all non-agricultural manufacturing workers prior to the IR owned their means of production, most do not today. Instead, they work for someone who owns the building, the machines, the transport, whatever. The capital necessary for ownership of the means of production used to be dispersed among workers, but now it's taken almost entirely away from them and concentrated in the hands of the "owners."

hunter

(38,317 posts)
98. Every corporation operating within the USA is a subsidiary of USA incorporated.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 09:40 PM
Mar 2013

It's time for "We the People" to flex some muscle.

The "board of directors" of the USA is We the People, one vote per adult.

We ought to be nationalizing any and all industries that are not contributing to the common good.

There are a few I can think of right away -- the health insurance industry, the pharmaceutical industry, miscellaneous "defense" contractors, large sectors of the banking and "financial" industry, the fossil fuel industries... all would be a good start.

Maybe if we nationalized one or two of the very big fish it would inspire the other big fish to behave themselves.

I'd be a hard core socialist if I was the boss.

On the Road

(20,783 posts)
65. 3-D Printing is Good for Custom Parts
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:59 PM
Mar 2013

Economically, it is nowhere near as efficient as mass production and unlikely to compete with it in the foreseeable future.

3-D printing may open up some small business and craftsman opportunities in certain areas.

I do like the idea of comparing developments to both Marxism and capitalism. It is a good thought process, and is in line with the Hegelian thesis-antithesis-synthesis method.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
75. "I do like the idea of comparing developments to both Marxism and capitalism."
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 06:44 PM
Mar 2013

Yeah, he tries to play the unread, apolitical blue-collar schtick but every now and then he hits one out of the park. It makes me kinda hot and bothered just thinking about it.

Anyhoo -- back to business. I absolutely agree with you when you say --

Economically, it is nowhere near as efficient as mass production and unlikely to compete with it in the foreseeable future.


However, the key phrase is "foreseeable future." This is a frontier technology and if you had asked anyone as little as 10 years ago about 3DP-esque technology it would have seemed only a pleasant fantasy. Now, the mere knowledge that these things exist has created an excitement. I truly look forward to the next 10 years
 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
78. Overstated.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:12 PM
Mar 2013

By "the means of production" Marx didn't mean "... of plastic widgets".

A 3d printer can't print energy, or software, or electronics or food.

Most of the stuff I've seen turned out by a 3d printer could have been done better by a dextrous person with a block of wood and a pocketknife. It's just another tool, optimized for certain kinds of tasks.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
84. Factories can't produce food either
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:38 PM
Mar 2013

But they can manufacture a combine that allows 1 person to create food for thousands so that those others can stop subsistence farming and take up other industries such as energy production, engineering, research, etc.

It may be a tool but we use tools to save labor which in turn frees labor for other pursuits -- and a smidge of leisure.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
99. Real estate is the means of food production.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:17 PM
Mar 2013

The combine doesn't create the food any more than the pipe creates the oil.

I think Marx meant to say that 3d printers are the opiate of the masses.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
101. Food production is not the sole industry of human society -- because of technology
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:38 PM
Mar 2013

And I understand the relation of tools to work. But that's my point: not only can we do more work because our tools allow us to but we can now pursue different kinds of work because now a few can produce for all what all used to have to do for themselves. Farmers have doctors because the farmer has the tools to produce enough for food the doctor, her nurse, the hospital administration, the janitors, the pharmaceutical company, the chemists, the college professors, the electric company workers that power it all, the road pavers, the police men, the government regulatory body, etc etc etc.

Now, with this new technology, I think we're watching the dawn of another phase of human industry that sees the means of production decentralized to the middle class.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
104. It'll fuel creativity, but it won't decentralize production.
Tue Mar 26, 2013, 12:08 AM
Mar 2013

It will always be cheaper to buy the plastic coat hanger at Target than it is to make it on your 3d printer.

What it will do is to enable a garage engineer to invent a better coat hanger... for factories to mass produce and sell at target.

Old and In the Way

(37,540 posts)
79. 3D printing started a long time ago.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:18 PM
Mar 2013

It really became operational after CAD came on the scene. part designs could then be prototyped quickly and cheaply via 3D printing systems. I was buying rapid prototype parts 15 years ago. As others have alluded, the value of 3D printing won't replace plastic injection molding for hi-volume, low cost parts...the systems will be bought by people who want to create models directly or produce 1-off customized components - I can see that aspect taking off. (Models R Us) ...but it will never lead to an economy where everyone makes the parts they need to build their own washing machines, salad shooters, etc.

GiveMeFreedom

(976 posts)
80. I like the idea
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:29 PM
Mar 2013

of ART being made with this technology. I could make a badass Tiffany lamp or two with something like this. Gosh, the possibilities in the art world are staggering.

PopeOxycontinI

(176 posts)
85. Um...no thanks
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:45 PM
Mar 2013

these things will just add to other forms of automation and outsourcing in causing more
unemployment. As far as means of production goes, these would only be good for trivial
plastic and maybe some small metal consumer goods. You can't print a house,
you can't print food, you probably can't print a smart phone and certainly
not a laptop. So, what's left? Car parts? Paperweights? I both believe and hope
that 3D printers are mostly hype.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
89. As I noted up-thread
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:57 PM
Mar 2013

Factories can't produce food either but they can manufacture a combine that allows 1 person to create food for thousands so that those others can stop subsistence farming and take up other industries such as energy production, engineering, research, etc.

It may be a tool but we use tools to save labor which in turn frees labor for other pursuits -- and a smidge of leisure.

This is a very new technology and it makes productivity accessible to more people for lower capital. We already have "printed" circuitboards so perhaps more extravagant combinations of features will become more and more available. Imagination is a good thing.

Posteritatis

(18,807 posts)
90. There's architects working on printable housing right now, actually.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:00 PM
Mar 2013

Simpler electronics are already being done in a few ways, with more elaborate stuff somewhere between "a few years further out" and "already available," depending on the builder's electronics background.

Your other points - that manufacturing should be agriculture, and that it's a bad thing for people to be able to make things more easily - are both too breathtakingly ignorant to warrant much of a response.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
93. Preach it!
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:20 PM
Mar 2013

Can you imagine if the internal combustion engine or assembly lines had been equally dismissed? Actually, I'll hazard a guess they were but thankfully their proponents ignored the critics and went forward in spite of them.

Punch card computers? What'll ever become of those thiings!

 

Clames

(2,038 posts)
94. Good thing you are wrong about this technology.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:24 PM
Mar 2013

3D Printed car...

http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/bulletin/plastic-3d-printed-car-ready-for-the-streets/14330

3D printed house...

http://www.psfk.com/2013/02/3d-printed-plastic-house.html

Computer parts are already 3D printed using advance lithography techniques. Won't be long until other parts can be printed and the whole production just becomes a series of printers linked together. Coupled with the rapid down-scaling of multi-axis CNC mills it really will be only a matter of years before one could setup a home business that could fabricate high-quality precision goods.

PopeOxycontinI

(176 posts)
100. Oh, then maybe I'm wrong...
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:31 PM
Mar 2013

that should make us very afraid, though. That would mean the only people employed
would be those involved in the manufacture, delivery, installation, and industrial scale
operation of these printers, doctors, lawyers, therapists, and shitty low-end service jobs.
we're talking a 50% or more Unemployment rate.

 

Clames

(2,038 posts)
102. No, it'll create lots of jobs rather.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:46 PM
Mar 2013

Specialized industries breed large numbers of other specialized small businesses in support. 3d printed homes would spawn furniture, appliances, decorative trim, flooring, lighting, plumbing, HVAC, etc.

PopeOxycontinI

(176 posts)
103. Sorry, I just don't buy it.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:57 PM
Mar 2013

The internet and PC were supposed to yield ponies and cotton candy, too.
Instead they brought us outsourcing, over the top automation, and 24/7
leashing to the office for those fortunate enough to still have jobs.
Technology (aside from healthcare and energy) has run out of potential
to increase the quality of our lives.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
86. As of now, 3D printing lets the average person
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:54 PM
Mar 2013

print his or her own cheap plastiic crap, and nothing more. Someday, it may do more, but not now. Making useful stuff is neither cheap nor easy yet.

timdog44

(1,388 posts)
95. I beg to disagree.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:26 PM
Mar 2013

There is useful "stuff" being printed as we speak, and has been for a couple years. It may not be cheap at this time, but no new innovation is cheap at the beginning. I think you need to look at some of the links cited above.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
105. I've been following it all along.
Tue Mar 26, 2013, 08:33 AM
Mar 2013

The issue is "ordinary" people having the ability to "make" useful stuff. I'm not seeing it. It's still a technology in its infancy when it comes to widespread use, frankly.

Mopar151

(9,983 posts)
96. Hate to break it to you
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:27 PM
Mar 2013

But 3D printers are not the only way to make these parts on a small scale. When you fabricate, weld, cast, and machine, your choice of materials expands exponentially compared to "addative processes" (like 3D printing).
I routinely make stuff more complex and difficult than 30-shot clips, including reverse engineering from some pretty sketchy examples. Apparently, being smart enough to make bananna clips lessens your desire to posess them to a considerable degree.

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