General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHubby made an observation about 3-D printers
We were supposed to go shooting this weekend but the snow storm that hit our area prevented that. So, while it was fresh in ourminds we were discussing gun control laws and the effect 3-D printers would have in making things like magazine bans impotent. Then, in mid-conversation, he says that 3-D printers were the world that both Marx and Adam Smith were looking forward to.
He said Marx wanted the workers to possess the means of production so they couldn't be held economically captive while Smith promulgated the free market to foster competition, lower prices and better goods. He said with 3-D printers both men get what they wanted and the worker/consumer is the person who will be better off for it.
Not that I feel the need to but I can't think of an argument against this.
onehandle
(51,122 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)Depressing, really; it's the only thing some people can see whenever the technology's mentioned.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)A few years ago I heard a story about a guy who worked at a research-facility nearby. He stole radioactive material and stored it at home. Eventually he got caught.
The results:
1. He got cancer.
2. His apartment was welded shut. Not decontaminated. Locked down and never to be opened again.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)basement. So that's a big stumbling block. What's your solution? Or are you just fear riffing?
Mika
(17,751 posts)Many dental labs are using 3D printing now, but it still requires the printed wax/resin part to be cast in metal, and for gun parts they would have to be high density castings with no porosity.
Printing is only half of the job.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)I'm talking about how the means of production are becoming de-centralized and with that decentralization more people who would, once upon a time, be confined to the role of laborer can now see a day when they can own their own means of production for whatever they can best realize.
Concurrently, as more people become producers market cometition brings its best elements with it: lower costs, higher quality, more choices.
And the technology will continue to improve beyond what we see today. It won't just be 3-D printers as we currently see them. I'm thinking this will be a win-win-win scenario.
theKed
(1,235 posts)Third-World potential. With, now, several open-source 3D printers available it can help developing communities without multi-national corporate involvement.
http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Main_Page
Kinda veering off your topic a bit (sorry).
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Actually, you're spot-on.
I'm not opposed to corporations just because they're corporations, they're only as bad or good as the people running them. But you're point about economic independence through open-sourcing and accessibility of the means of production is exactly what I'm addressing.
I hadn't thought about that aspect in the developing world and I think it is an excellent point.
theKed
(1,235 posts)the open source movement is the real driving force behind economic liberation - which 3D printing is a part of. But without freely available, inexpensive means of getting a printer it could be priced ot of the hands of the masses with no real way to stop it.
the Global Village Construction Set, from the link above, once complete, will have 50 fully-open source designs freely available - everything from cement mixers, to industrial robots, to wind turbines, and even an open source car and tractor design.
The other aspect is accessibility of materials. Having a 3D printer is wonderful, but if the material being used in it is withheld, it doesn't do a lot of good.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)If the demand is strong enough someone, somewhere will provide the supply. Demand = dollars, ripe for the taking.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)theKed
(1,235 posts)publicly available for free.
Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)The only thing to sell would be the printers, and the material to print. Your ideas will be copied by neighbors who will make it better or worse. And as far as copying guns, we don't copy money with printers, so they could make it illegal to print guns that kill. Make the printers not be able to print those. Just like speak and spell couldn't say fuck even though you typed it in. LOL!
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)I doubt everyone would have a printer or would want one. I'm sure everyone would want a Rembrandt and more-or-less could afford the materials but -- let's face facts -- they lack the requisite talent. There's no shame in that. People have different talents and that's part of what makes people awesome.
The nice thing about open economies is they are pliable. If 3DPs become a significant part of an economy the economy will shift accordingly. Automation didn't kill the need for manual labor, it turned manual laborers into engineers, programmers, operators and service technicans. Less time spent on manual labor meant more time for leisure and those who provide for that as well.
TeamPooka
(24,229 posts)Mika
(17,751 posts)DesMoinesDem
(1,569 posts)Clames
(2,038 posts)The rest of it is a combination of aluminum and steel forgings that are machined.
DesMoinesDem
(1,569 posts)It wasn't.
Clames
(2,038 posts)Mika
(17,751 posts)Direct Metal Laser Sintering (DMLS) Overview
kudzu22
(1,273 posts)that functions perfectly. No need for the magazine to be metal. And it's just a matter of time until someone designs an AR-15 lower receiver that can be all plastic.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Because we still can only price things based on scarcity.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)And thank-you for actually addressing the subject of the OP.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Iain Banks, in his "The Culture" books, pointed out that in a true post-scarcity society, the entire idea of economics would likely become obsolete. Citizens of The Culture are fond of commenting, when faced with a scarcity society, that "money is a sign of poverty."
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)There will have to be a downside to it though.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)some AI will use the technology to create a race of killer androids that enslave humanity.
I suppose that could be called a downside.
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)Just practically speaking, there's going to be a downside to it.
We're not talking about a butter knife or something like that. These 3D printers are supposed to change the whole game or whatever, right? If they go to that sort of level, there's bound to be some substantial risks and downsides to the application of this is within physical reality. I think human history shows that quite clearly.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)These machines and those like them will ultimately create everything from the useful to the novel to things that just ought not be. Their only limit will be human imagination and people tend to imagine what they desire. Sadly, many desire bad things.
On the hopeful side, however, I see that person with the Next-Big-Thing idea no longer limited by the hunt for venture capital. She wins, her consumers will win and her future employees will win and anyone else among them will be able to create their own Next-Big-Thing.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)needs, clothing, unless you don't mind wearing plastic tarps, so there are limits. But for some stuff, like tools, it seems to be pretty effective. I suppose you could do a lot kitchen accessories too, like plates and flatware. However if you want to make your own clothes and linens, you can buy a fine loom and put it in your basement, if you have one, and weave away. I suppose with a combination of equipment you could become fairly self-sufficient and not dependent on manufacturing.
The downside though is that manufacturers traditionally were big job producers. However, since that faction has moved to Asia, maybe it's worthwhile looking at means of home production.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)It won't be just shaped plastic. Or maybe a 3-D printer will create the machine needed to fabicate linens for more people.
I think it's an exciting time we live in.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)loom components are hard and usually made of either wood or metal. The yarn or thread you'd have to spin yourself although the spinners could be made on it. I have a hand spindle made of wood, but I've seen women use a stick with a DVD disk and still spin effectively. It's just a skill you learn. What you use to make it easier is many and varied.
timdog44
(1,388 posts)that first thoughts are of using it as a means to make a killing machine of any kind.
There are so many other very worthwhile pursuits with a printer of this kind. And in that vein it does put free market principles into action. And owner operator businesses making infinite types of widgets, or total products for sale.
Skraxx
(2,977 posts)Not guns. I want my 3d printed love doll, stat.
timdog44
(1,388 posts)intelligent discussion here on DU.
Skraxx
(2,977 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)timdog44
(1,388 posts)Amazing how an original post can go down the tubes so fast. Especially one with promise such as yours.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)Was that a robot shall not harm a human being.
Even before Asimov had written those books, though, robots were used in aiming naval guns.
timdog44
(1,388 posts)War seems to be on the mind, first of all.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Sadly it's the gun nutbars who are getting all the coverage right now...
timdog44
(1,388 posts)for some time now.
Medical applications are the first I thought about. I have seen, and I wish I had the site, where they have printed a persons skull as a replacement for that person, due to some trauma. Wonderful. Hope the good news keeps coming.
Also saw where the thinking is to use them in space to print replacement parts and tools. Just amazing the thinking.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)timdog44
(1,388 posts)I am real excited by all this.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)Case in point: most of the reactions in this thread, or any other thread on DU about 3D printing.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)My own plans for when I get one are a lot less controversial, anyway, but I can see more than one application for the things aside from "they will give our enemies power!"
timdog44
(1,388 posts)see an enemy behind every tree and rock, and as you say "it will give power to our enemies". It is the same with any new invention. It can be used for good or evil. There is no stopping 3D printing at this point. And I don't think there is a way to legislate the uses. We can only hope to stay one step ahead and show the good that can come.
timdog44
(1,388 posts)The technology to give me a new back, is I think, sadly, far enough in the future that I will no longer be here on earth.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)I grew up recently enough that I 'should' take that sort of thing for granted, but I'm continuously astounded at the things people are coming up with.
timdog44
(1,388 posts)I hope for you all the things that are coming.
I have not given up, but at 65, things need to happen quickly. Somethings are a mystery until one day, there it is.
XRubicon
(2,212 posts)I can print 100 dollar bills, make whiskey, grow pot all at home. But I don't, you know why?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Making a gun or a magazine isn't illegal, unless they scheduled the high capacity magazines under the NFA.
XRubicon
(2,212 posts)Besides being clueless of material science and benefits and efficiency of mass production, the post is thinly veiled pro gun propaganda.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Just their sale. Now, scheduling them under the NFA would be different, but even Feinstein was leery of going that far.
XRubicon
(2,212 posts)Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)The rest of the post about owning the means of production is nothing but total eyewash; the main thrust was gunner propaganda...."You can't stop us from getting what we want."
Yeah, you'll just be a criminal with contraband, the same as if you fabricated your own fully-automatic fire weapon in a machine shop.
Funny how few saw it.
The other gunners recognized it immediately.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)talk about the economic implications of what 3DPs can do for an economy.
What are the expected results of allowing the means of (non-gun related) production becoming more accessible to more people?
XRubicon
(2,212 posts)They are restricted in materials and size.
Great business model, you can make overly expensive things with crappy material properties.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Now look at the industry. Power increases as costs decrease yet it remains highly profitable, employs millions, empowers billions and has yet to reach its zenith. 3DPs are a nascent technology but one that I believe has as much potential.
XRubicon
(2,212 posts)Mass production is why you can afford a good computer.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)won't come in to play with decentralizing the means of production through 3DPs and similar technologies.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)I think there is much promise to be found in technology that allows people to turn their ideas into the Next-Big-Thing without having to hunt for inaccessible amounts of start-up capital.
My dad was a union carpenter during his early career until he saved up enough to start his own business. But the money he was saving was material prosperity the family had to forego at the time as we looked to better things in the future. We also suffered a near-debilitating setback along the way once he did own his business. Now, a 3DP would not be applicable to my father's trade but the fact that start-up costs can be prohibitive and quash worthy efforts is well-founded. I think 3DPs will alleviate that for many, many people and I think that is an awesome potential to those people and society as a whole.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)XRubicon
(2,212 posts)You are free to make $10 a piece plastic toothpicks all you want...
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)XRubicon
(2,212 posts)Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)Custom anything is somewhere between "expensive" and "producers will not even speak to you unless you're an established business," depending on what you're trying to work with.
Got some plans for after I try to pick one up sometime over the next year, not particularly worried about how that's going to work out.
Of course, you've already made up your mind that the only applications they have will be criminal or worthless, so I'm not sure if there's any point in continuing this whole discussion.
XRubicon
(2,212 posts)Its going to cost you alot too.
Good luck
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)A magazine, OTOH, doesn't have to look like or fool anybody; it just has to work.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)and I'm loathe to type this but -- please, no gun references. I'm trying to make this thread about economics.
It's not my place to tell you or anyone else what to speak about but the subject is being used to distract from the intent of the OP.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)There are "chemical printers" in the works that will be able to synthesize AZT... Or meth.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)Any kind of universal chemical synthesizer is way further out than a printer that works with a handful of bulk materials like even the highest-resolution 3D printers around today. There is nothing close to what you're talking about anywhere near market that isn't falling entirely within large institutional budgets.
Fretting about 3D printers being able to synthesize meth is not only already becoming a tired cliche, it's in the same neighborhood as fretting about the Internet becoming sentient and rebelling against humanity.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)If a chemical printer could bring more life-saving treatments to the consumer I think it would serve to underscore my sense of hopefulness. Obviously, quality control would be an issue.
This leads me to think of an interesting point. What sort of regulatory scheme should we have that maximizes innovation while protecting the consumer from the malicious or negligient?
unblock
(52,250 posts)or would "trigger" be the more appropriate term?
hunter
(38,317 posts)We're simply kept in the dark about it so a few oligarchs can reap unfair benefits.
All the software I use is free. I don't need Microsoft or Apple. Art and music I get directly from the artists. I've got no cable or satellite television, I don't watch network television, I haven't seen a television commercial for a long, long, time. Yet still I live.
I can plant a seed in my garden and it grows.
I think good food, safe shelter, appropriate medical care, and education ought to be everyone's right. Beyond that we ought to have multiple competing economic ecologies, not all convertible to the metric of a single currency.
It's a broken system where the people with money dictate the direction of a society.
Ideally I think we would live in a society where the population is voluntarily declining, and we would live in a world of increasing abundance. The scrapyards of a failed economic system would be our mines. No need to plunder the earth further.
There shouldn't be any homeless people in the USA, there are plenty of empty homes. There shouldn't be any hungry people, there is plenty of food. There shouldn't be any illiterate and uneducated people, there are plenty of people who could teach. There shouldn't be anyone without access to appropriate medical care. Nobody should be without meaningful work, there is much meaningful work to share.
That we still have so many problems tells us our present economic system is a dismal failure.
New technologies like 3D printing, or digital music transfers, won't change the broken economic system, but they will further illuminate its shortcomings.
mike_c
(36,281 posts)Think about the transition to the industrial revolution, because that's primarily what Marx was talking about. Prior to the IR, most manufacturing was small scale craftsmanship. If you needed a chair you went to the woodworker or cabinet maker's shop and he used his tools to build you a chair. If you needed a shovel you went to the smith, who used his forge, anvil, and hammers to make you a shovel. If you needed a shirt, you went to a weaver who used his loom to make your cloth, which you then took to the seamstress or tailor who used their tools to cut and sew the garment. If you needed a violin you went to the luthier, and so on. Sure, you might also buy these items from a merchant, but ultimately they came from workers who owned the means for producing them.
In each case, economic transactions were between the consumer and the owner of the means of production, the tools, skills, experience, and so on. Sure, they might pay rent to someone else, or dues, or license fees or whatever, but they personally owed the means of manufacture. In many cases they acquired them through an apprenticeship process that both taught them their skills and provided them with the means to practice them, i.e. ownership of the means of production.
After the IR, those workers typically relocated to a factory where they ran someone else's machines-- an employment model that is so common today that we take it for granted, but which utterly destroyed a way of life that prevailed prior to the IR. Since they no longer owned those machines, which also made relatively unskilled workers better able to manufacture things that only capable craftsmen could produce previously, the only real commodity workers retained in the market was their time (and to a lesser extent their skills, but when factory owners can make workers compete with one another to work for less, skill often becomes a secondary issue-- employers can teach the limited skill set necessary to run the machines, and job insecurity helps make that worth the employer's while). To this day, most such workers are paid by the hour, and while more skilled workers might make higher hourly wages than less skilled workers, employers still pay them for the hours of their lives rather than for the goods that they produce.
Where virtually all non-agricultural manufacturing workers prior to the IR owned their means of production, most do not today. Instead, they work for someone who owns the building, the machines, the transport, whatever. The capital necessary for ownership of the means of production used to be dispersed among workers, but now it's taken almost entirely away from them and concentrated in the hands of the "owners."
hunter
(38,317 posts)It's time for "We the People" to flex some muscle.
The "board of directors" of the USA is We the People, one vote per adult.
We ought to be nationalizing any and all industries that are not contributing to the common good.
There are a few I can think of right away -- the health insurance industry, the pharmaceutical industry, miscellaneous "defense" contractors, large sectors of the banking and "financial" industry, the fossil fuel industries... all would be a good start.
Maybe if we nationalized one or two of the very big fish it would inspire the other big fish to behave themselves.
I'd be a hard core socialist if I was the boss.
On the Road
(20,783 posts)Economically, it is nowhere near as efficient as mass production and unlikely to compete with it in the foreseeable future.
3-D printing may open up some small business and craftsman opportunities in certain areas.
I do like the idea of comparing developments to both Marxism and capitalism. It is a good thought process, and is in line with the Hegelian thesis-antithesis-synthesis method.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Yeah, he tries to play the unread, apolitical blue-collar schtick but every now and then he hits one out of the park. It makes me kinda hot and bothered just thinking about it.
Anyhoo -- back to business. I absolutely agree with you when you say --
However, the key phrase is "foreseeable future." This is a frontier technology and if you had asked anyone as little as 10 years ago about 3DP-esque technology it would have seemed only a pleasant fantasy. Now, the mere knowledge that these things exist has created an excitement. I truly look forward to the next 10 years
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)By "the means of production" Marx didn't mean "... of plastic widgets".
A 3d printer can't print energy, or software, or electronics or food.
Most of the stuff I've seen turned out by a 3d printer could have been done better by a dextrous person with a block of wood and a pocketknife. It's just another tool, optimized for certain kinds of tasks.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)But they can manufacture a combine that allows 1 person to create food for thousands so that those others can stop subsistence farming and take up other industries such as energy production, engineering, research, etc.
It may be a tool but we use tools to save labor which in turn frees labor for other pursuits -- and a smidge of leisure.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)The combine doesn't create the food any more than the pipe creates the oil.
I think Marx meant to say that 3d printers are the opiate of the masses.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)And I understand the relation of tools to work. But that's my point: not only can we do more work because our tools allow us to but we can now pursue different kinds of work because now a few can produce for all what all used to have to do for themselves. Farmers have doctors because the farmer has the tools to produce enough for food the doctor, her nurse, the hospital administration, the janitors, the pharmaceutical company, the chemists, the college professors, the electric company workers that power it all, the road pavers, the police men, the government regulatory body, etc etc etc.
Now, with this new technology, I think we're watching the dawn of another phase of human industry that sees the means of production decentralized to the middle class.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)It will always be cheaper to buy the plastic coat hanger at Target than it is to make it on your 3d printer.
What it will do is to enable a garage engineer to invent a better coat hanger... for factories to mass produce and sell at target.
Old and In the Way
(37,540 posts)It really became operational after CAD came on the scene. part designs could then be prototyped quickly and cheaply via 3D printing systems. I was buying rapid prototype parts 15 years ago. As others have alluded, the value of 3D printing won't replace plastic injection molding for hi-volume, low cost parts...the systems will be bought by people who want to create models directly or produce 1-off customized components - I can see that aspect taking off. (Models R Us) ...but it will never lead to an economy where everyone makes the parts they need to build their own washing machines, salad shooters, etc.
GiveMeFreedom
(976 posts)of ART being made with this technology. I could make a badass Tiffany lamp or two with something like this. Gosh, the possibilities in the art world are staggering.
d_r
(6,907 posts)they aren't going to do much good when it runs out
PopeOxycontinI
(176 posts)these things will just add to other forms of automation and outsourcing in causing more
unemployment. As far as means of production goes, these would only be good for trivial
plastic and maybe some small metal consumer goods. You can't print a house,
you can't print food, you probably can't print a smart phone and certainly
not a laptop. So, what's left? Car parts? Paperweights? I both believe and hope
that 3D printers are mostly hype.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Factories can't produce food either but they can manufacture a combine that allows 1 person to create food for thousands so that those others can stop subsistence farming and take up other industries such as energy production, engineering, research, etc.
It may be a tool but we use tools to save labor which in turn frees labor for other pursuits -- and a smidge of leisure.
This is a very new technology and it makes productivity accessible to more people for lower capital. We already have "printed" circuitboards so perhaps more extravagant combinations of features will become more and more available. Imagination is a good thing.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)Simpler electronics are already being done in a few ways, with more elaborate stuff somewhere between "a few years further out" and "already available," depending on the builder's electronics background.
Your other points - that manufacturing should be agriculture, and that it's a bad thing for people to be able to make things more easily - are both too breathtakingly ignorant to warrant much of a response.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Can you imagine if the internal combustion engine or assembly lines had been equally dismissed? Actually, I'll hazard a guess they were but thankfully their proponents ignored the critics and went forward in spite of them.
Punch card computers? What'll ever become of those thiings!
Clames
(2,038 posts)3D Printed car...
http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/bulletin/plastic-3d-printed-car-ready-for-the-streets/14330
3D printed house...
http://www.psfk.com/2013/02/3d-printed-plastic-house.html
Computer parts are already 3D printed using advance lithography techniques. Won't be long until other parts can be printed and the whole production just becomes a series of printers linked together. Coupled with the rapid down-scaling of multi-axis CNC mills it really will be only a matter of years before one could setup a home business that could fabricate high-quality precision goods.
PopeOxycontinI
(176 posts)that should make us very afraid, though. That would mean the only people employed
would be those involved in the manufacture, delivery, installation, and industrial scale
operation of these printers, doctors, lawyers, therapists, and shitty low-end service jobs.
we're talking a 50% or more Unemployment rate.
Clames
(2,038 posts)Specialized industries breed large numbers of other specialized small businesses in support. 3d printed homes would spawn furniture, appliances, decorative trim, flooring, lighting, plumbing, HVAC, etc.
PopeOxycontinI
(176 posts)The internet and PC were supposed to yield ponies and cotton candy, too.
Instead they brought us outsourcing, over the top automation, and 24/7
leashing to the office for those fortunate enough to still have jobs.
Technology (aside from healthcare and energy) has run out of potential
to increase the quality of our lives.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)print his or her own cheap plastiic crap, and nothing more. Someday, it may do more, but not now. Making useful stuff is neither cheap nor easy yet.
timdog44
(1,388 posts)There is useful "stuff" being printed as we speak, and has been for a couple years. It may not be cheap at this time, but no new innovation is cheap at the beginning. I think you need to look at some of the links cited above.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)The issue is "ordinary" people having the ability to "make" useful stuff. I'm not seeing it. It's still a technology in its infancy when it comes to widespread use, frankly.
Mopar151
(9,983 posts)But 3D printers are not the only way to make these parts on a small scale. When you fabricate, weld, cast, and machine, your choice of materials expands exponentially compared to "addative processes" (like 3D printing).
I routinely make stuff more complex and difficult than 30-shot clips, including reverse engineering from some pretty sketchy examples. Apparently, being smart enough to make bananna clips lessens your desire to posess them to a considerable degree.
timdog44
(1,388 posts)and informative thread. It is what I expect here at DU.