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Kurovski

(34,655 posts)
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:16 AM Mar 2013

Online Bullying – a New and Ugly Sport for Liberal Commenters--The UK Guardian--Oct. 2012

I could not find this article posted on DU, but if it's here, it's still worth a revisit.



"Over the past couple of years, I've watched the rise of a new form of online performance art, where liberal internet commenters make public sport of flagging potentially problematic language as insensitive, and gleefully calling out authors as needing to "check their privilege" (admit their privileged position within society and its associated benefits)."

*SNIP*

"Increasingly, I've started recognising this kind of behaviour for what it is: privilege-checking as a form of internet sport. It's a kind of trolling, with all the politics I agree with, but motivations and execution that turns my stomach. It's well-intended (so well-intended), but when the motivations seem to be less about opening dialogue about the issues, and more about performance, righteousness, and intolerance toward those who don't agree with you … well, I'm not on board.


This is where it starts to feel like the "GOD HATES FAGS!" sign-wavers. While the political sentiments are exactly opposite, the motivations are remarkably similar: I WOULD LIKE TO DERAIL THIS CONVERSATION AND HAVE AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE WITNESS HOW RIGHT I AM. I don't care if your politics are progressive and your focus is on social justice: if you're shouting at people online and refusing to have a dialogue, you're bullying. I don't care if you're fighting the good fight: if you're fighting in a way that's more about public performance, shaming and righteousness, I'm not fighting with you.

… Even if I agree with your goals."


A good deal more to be found here......



http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/18/online-bullying-ugly-sport-liberal-commenters

131 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Online Bullying – a New and Ugly Sport for Liberal Commenters--The UK Guardian--Oct. 2012 (Original Post) Kurovski Mar 2013 OP
I think we need to reflect on what we do as a community more. Kurska Mar 2013 #1
I like how the author ended the article: Kurovski Mar 2013 #3
Very good end to the article and yeah that is a little funny bout the names. n/t Kurska Mar 2013 #5
Well said. n/t OneGrassRoot Mar 2013 #23
What I've noticed over the past year is a species of self-righteous mob behavior Hekate Mar 2013 #2
Or how about that old couple in Florida whose address was tweeted as being George Zimmerman's JVS Mar 2013 #4
Yes, that too. Those innocent people could have been killed. Hekate Mar 2013 #6
There's been plenty of self-righteous mob behavior right here on DU. n/t L0oniX Mar 2013 #65
Yes there is. nt Mojorabbit Mar 2013 #131
It is the reaction that must be expected when the rule of law has failed. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #102
If only we liberals were less mean, things could get done. bleever Mar 2013 #7
I only give up being mean for lent, so I should talk. Kurovski Mar 2013 #9
Yes. sibelian Mar 2013 #8
+10000 to that. MattSh Mar 2013 #21
Bringing it back home I am reminded of Meta... Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #10
It definitely could have applied to Meta. pacalo Mar 2013 #12
And to the current threads on the election of the new Pope Sherman A1 Mar 2013 #18
For sure! pacalo Mar 2013 #19
What I find disturbing Sherman A1 Mar 2013 #20
for reference RainDog Mar 2013 #106
Pope and Catholic are on my auto-hide list. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #44
I hide no one and nothing. Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #47
Do you feel a need to read the table of contents UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #48
Point taken, but I am sure you understand mine as well Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #49
I do. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #50
After reading the OP, I thought meta also. HappyMe Mar 2013 #46
So, you're against self-righteousness?1! pacalo Mar 2013 #86
I'm probably on there. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #103
No, you aren't on my ignore list. HappyMe Mar 2013 #110
Sounds like a good idea. I didn't know you could do that. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #115
At the top right, click on HappyMe Mar 2013 #116
Absolutely get the red out Mar 2013 #52
yup, my reaction is to just trash the "privilege" threads quinnox Mar 2013 #11
I think I'm going to go back to trashing all threads related to rape. pacalo Mar 2013 #13
I feel the same way quinnox Mar 2013 #14
I started to wonder if I was one of the few who didn't get the super-secret memo about some pacalo Mar 2013 #15
you and me both quinnox Mar 2013 #17
This article is crap. mattclearing Mar 2013 #16
It's not about "telling some right-wing asshat that they benefit from privilege" muriel_volestrangler Mar 2013 #31
Perhaps. mattclearing Mar 2013 #70
Yep. Progressives being mean is a huge issue... desth threats, rape threats, and redqueen Mar 2013 #41
. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #45
Thanks. mattclearing Mar 2013 #72
It looks like an observation on the part of the author. I think she says so in the text. Kurovski Mar 2013 #100
I tend to agree with you wryter2000 Mar 2013 #54
Her vagueness seems to suit people just fine... redqueen Mar 2013 #66
Yep. mattclearing Mar 2013 #74
The tolerant of my intolerance argument occurred to me as well. mattclearing Mar 2013 #73
We have to point out insensitivity until people everywhere learn to express themselves in ways that sibelian Mar 2013 #75
That's ok. mattclearing Mar 2013 #95
Not everyone uses words with the same intent. Kurovski Mar 2013 #96
Agreed. mattclearing Mar 2013 #97
It's insane. Warren DeMontague Mar 2013 #22
Here is one of the 446 comments I read. Kurovski Mar 2013 #24
Part of another comment: Kurovski Mar 2013 #25
It's very odd in that we are seeing an ever-widening gap between rich and poor Kurovski Mar 2013 #26
It's from half a year ago Turborama Mar 2013 #40
You are not alone in your observations... Old and In the Way Mar 2013 #56
A few weeks ago on "Up With Chris Hayes" Kurovski Mar 2013 #71
well said....a great article backwoodsbob Mar 2013 #27
I "quit" for many months because it seems ridiculous to argue with people I mostly agree with... KittyWampus Mar 2013 #58
One of the big ones: The Straight Story Mar 2013 #28
Pretty Much Explains... KharmaTrain Mar 2013 #29
Remember when DU didn't suck? TransitJohn Mar 2013 #30
I think META exposed well the dark side of DU The Straight Story Mar 2013 #32
Excellent article. 99Forever Mar 2013 #33
Interesting. I believe every responder to the OP up to this point is male. nt Zorra Mar 2013 #34
that has what to do with what exactly? backwoodsbob Mar 2013 #35
That's kind of the fault line that is being exploited here. Old and In the Way Mar 2013 #57
LOL RZM Mar 2013 #36
I read a lot. And the point is, I find it interesting that that Zorra Mar 2013 #38
Just as most that seem fixated on it seem to be or where raised upper class and white. TheKentuckian Mar 2013 #42
I find it interesting that you can be so sure of gender just by user names. yellowcanine Mar 2013 #55
User names actually have little or nothing to do with it, Zorra Mar 2013 #104
I think you are blowing smoke. yellowcanine Mar 2013 #111
maybe the fact this article quoted in the OP was written by a woman should be of interest then too quinnox Mar 2013 #37
That it is. nt Zorra Mar 2013 #39
Wow. You are better than me at figuring out someone's sex from their username (nt) Nye Bevan Mar 2013 #43
I'm sorry, I believe you are making somewhat irrelevant assumptions. nt Zorra Mar 2013 #105
You mean like the sex of the posters? (nt) The Straight Story Mar 2013 #108
Touche. pacalo Mar 2013 #125
It isn't true, and you could have checked it. Kurovski Mar 2013 #76
"It's an invitation to rumble." pacalo Mar 2013 #80
Please, allow me to spell it out for you. I'm sorry if my online technique of communicating may be Zorra Mar 2013 #107
I think you missed the crux of the OP and the problems people here on DU are having The Straight Story Mar 2013 #109
Yes, good points, but every day we see examples in the news of Zorra Mar 2013 #121
Well I say Thank You - for one of the better replies here The Straight Story Mar 2013 #122
You make a lot of assumptions about the motivations of other people. yellowcanine Mar 2013 #113
I spent an hour composing a response, and lost it with a finger slip. Gaaa! Kurovski Mar 2013 #119
Maybe some people just don't want to kick it. pintobean Mar 2013 #114
Imported meta from another site without any geek tragedy Mar 2013 #51
Want a good example? The outrage from many DU'ers when Southern Fried Chicken, Collards etc KittyWampus Mar 2013 #59
Sounds yummy. Just missing some BBQ and yams. nt geek tragedy Mar 2013 #60
Well, this Cracker ate/eats a lot of that under moss-draped oaks beside big breezy lakes. Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #61
Soul food doesn't care what color is the soul's body. GoCubsGo Mar 2013 #87
Heirloom peas w/ a little ham used to be cheap. Now you can't find 'em. Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #93
LMAO... your subject line cut off after 'chicken'... so I thought you were going to mention redqueen Mar 2013 #64
OMG, I remember that brou-ha-ha WolverineDG Mar 2013 #82
"Online bullying - a New and Ugly Sport for Liberal Commenters" yellowcanine Mar 2013 #53
I guess I'll be the first to mention liberals with guns. Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #62
Say what? yellowcanine Mar 2013 #63
Sorry for the crypnotic effect. Everyone was talking... Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #94
I knew what you meant. Kurovski Mar 2013 #98
I guess I didn't get it because I don't accept your premise. yellowcanine Mar 2013 #99
Well, great. I'm reassured that 2A advocates are just that, Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #101
To call asking for more regulation of guns "bullying" degrades the term. yellowcanine Mar 2013 #112
Don't buy your arguments in their face... Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #117
NRA is not irrelevant because "pro-2A" is an NRA talking point. yellowcanine Mar 2013 #118
Please. You are so tendentious; talk about cheapening the term "bully." Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #120
Nice - "I will end this conversation... good day." but BTW - here is 1 more dig. yellowcanine Mar 2013 #123
You try editing for flow & structure with a piece if crap smart phone. Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #126
It's cute how she acts ike lliberals are unique. redqueen Mar 2013 #67
Authors almost never create the titles of their articles. An editor does, Kurovski Mar 2013 #77
What a bunch of bullshit. Zoeisright Mar 2013 #68
Well that's just skipping around the issue, really isn't it? sibelian Mar 2013 #69
I think "Bullying" is overused and misused, but that's my opinion and I've lived long Kurovski Mar 2013 #79
Self-delete WilliamPitt Mar 2013 #78
I remember this guy on DU who posted about taking his favorite girl at the time out for an expensive KittyWampus Mar 2013 #81
Was that... Kurovski Mar 2013 #88
And if I remembered every slight, I'd be a ball of rage. WilliamPitt Mar 2013 #90
She's an author who has seen too many readers' comments derailing the subject matter pacalo Mar 2013 #83
here is what cshe says: Kurovski Mar 2013 #85
As a Meta survivor (heh), I found her observations were right on the money. pacalo Mar 2013 #89
She pretty much nailed Meta (nt) The Straight Story Mar 2013 #124
yep libodem Mar 2013 #128
Love your signature! pacalo Mar 2013 #129
I can't see it on my phone libodem Mar 2013 #130
it's about progressives bossing each other around. "More liberal than thou" Kurovski Mar 2013 #84
"Will, did you read too fast?" WilliamPitt Mar 2013 #91
OK "strong and silent" I think I see what you mean. Kurovski Mar 2013 #92
So the author wants more communication Rex Mar 2013 #127

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
1. I think we need to reflect on what we do as a community more.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:25 AM
Mar 2013

What are we saying and why are we saying it? If we're saying it just to put someone in their place, maybe we aren't a lot better than the people we criticize for doing that.

I will say that I think the progressive movement is far more civil than the equivalent on the right, but I don't want better than equivalent. I want us to be leagues better in the quality of our dialogue.

Kurovski

(34,655 posts)
3. I like how the author ended the article:
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:50 AM
Mar 2013

"I wish we didn't have to spend so much time fighting with each other."

Hey, our names look good together!

Hekate

(90,714 posts)
2. What I've noticed over the past year is a species of self-righteous mob behavior
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:48 AM
Mar 2013

I think the common denominator between the behavior noted in your link and what I have below is the anonymity of the Internet, but it can have real consequences.

A restaurant customer left an insulting note instead of a tip. A waitress put the note online. The waitress got fired.

So far, so ordinary. But then it got really ugly.

Thousands of posters weighed in on the issue, flooding the Facebook page of the restaurant, threatening boycotts, calling ugly names. The customer's name was revealed, and other information as well. Thousands of posters weighed in on the customer, making ugly comments and even threats.

There was no sense of proportion, no mercy, just howls for retribution and "justice" based on the barest outline of facts.

Folks, this is what a mob looks like, and the behavior extended to the pages of DU that night. It's very troubling.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to finally write my observations.

JVS

(61,935 posts)
4. Or how about that old couple in Florida whose address was tweeted as being George Zimmerman's
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:52 AM
Mar 2013

The internet is really good for assembling a misinformed or ill-informed mob.

Hekate

(90,714 posts)
6. Yes, that too. Those innocent people could have been killed.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:15 AM
Mar 2013

Maybe just beaten up, or had their house or car vandalized -- like that might have been trivial somehow, not being death, you know. "Ooops, my bad, we got the wrong old people."

Not good.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
102. It is the reaction that must be expected when the rule of law has failed.
Wed Mar 27, 2013, 01:57 AM
Mar 2013

In our country, for example, marijuana dealers go to jail, and bankers who commit fraud or launder drug money pay fines.

That causes people to feel that they are themselves responsible for rendering judgment and justice in situations like that of the waitress.

An injustice was done. The waitress had no recourse because her boss's decision was supreme. There was no arbiter or court to which she could appeal for justice.

And so, the "mob," feeling that she represents them, that they could be the next victims of the injustice, rush to her defense or at least to loudly condemn the wrong they assume was done to her.

The "mob" identifies with the victim of injustice. That is understandable.

If people felt that we had a justice system to which a person like the waitress could appeal for a fair decision, they would not feel compelled to respond so vehemently.

That's my opinion. I'm just happy we have as little violence as we do. I'm happy we have as much harmony as we do --because we do not have justice, not for the little people.

bleever

(20,616 posts)
7. If only we liberals were less mean, things could get done.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:27 AM
Mar 2013

And at the same time, I hate people fighting the progressive agenda with reactionary attitudes.

It's a puzzlement.

Except it's not. When was the last time a conservative was dragged to death behind a pickup truck?


Hey, friend, that's the kind of mood you caught me in.


Kurovski

(34,655 posts)
9. I only give up being mean for lent, so I should talk.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:37 AM
Mar 2013

Hello, old pal. a hug, and some

Where is the ravishing patsy these days?

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
8. Yes.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:33 AM
Mar 2013

This bit in particular is ..... familiar:

"Look at me look at me look at meeee! I am the very MOST aware of my privilege and am therefore the very BEST progressive on the entire internet!"

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
10. Bringing it back home I am reminded of Meta...
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:40 AM
Mar 2013

Or so many discussions on the main forums, in which the goal seems not to inspire an exchange of ideas, a discussion or debate, but rather to post provocative threads on divisive issues then shred any who offer anything other than abject and instant surrender to the purity and righteousness of the original poster. Often they go beyond this, and a challenge on any point, no matter how slight or ludicrously presented, is responded to as if it were a challenge to the entire ideology.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
12. It definitely could have applied to Meta.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:55 AM
Mar 2013

Look at meeeee! Aren't I the most righteous in all the DU world!

Sherman A1

(38,958 posts)
18. And to the current threads on the election of the new Pope
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 04:29 AM
Mar 2013

While I am no fan of the RCC and it's history, I have seen several hijacked, shouting down other members who dare to question, try to find something possibly positive in the situation or have differing opinions than the "righteous" ones.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
19. For sure!
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 04:34 AM
Mar 2013

I stayed away from those threads when I began to see the downshift in discussion, but I was glad to see the Catholics rise up to say "enough is enough".

Sherman A1

(38,958 posts)
20. What I find disturbing
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 04:46 AM
Mar 2013

in the threads on the Pope, Steubenville and alike is the complete lack of civility and willingness to at least consider another's point of view or at least their feelings. It is very much "MY OPINION IS THE ONLY OPINION" and the rest of you should just fall in line agreeing with me.

To me it simply comes down to bullying nothing more.

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
47. I hide no one and nothing.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 01:52 PM
Mar 2013

I might not respond to a topic, but I want to see it. Respectfully, I think this tendency promotes cognitive dissonance -- something we must all guard against.

 

UnrepentantLiberal

(11,700 posts)
48. Do you feel a need to read the table of contents
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:03 PM
Mar 2013

of every magazine on the magazine rack when you walk by one? Do you make sure you check the schedule of every channel before you watch TV? If you don't visit DU for a few days do you peruse every forum to make sure you didn't miss anything?

A handful of anonymous people on the internet arguing back and forth and back and forth and back and forth about the Pope is of little interest to me. It just clutters up GD.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
46. After reading the OP, I thought meta also.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:25 AM
Mar 2013

Self righteous 'my way or the highway' attitudes don't encourage discussion. You have to either agree 100%, or just stay out of the thread entirely.

My auto-hide list is unfortunately growing.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
103. I'm probably on there.
Wed Mar 27, 2013, 02:05 AM
Mar 2013

Which is funny, because I do not have an auto-hide list.

I've always loved argument. I was raised on intellectual argument, married it, learned it. I'm not always right, but I always learn a lot from it. The Socratic method -- always questioning hones your thinking and makes you honest.

I think the article criticizing the critics is just sour grapes by someone who is not up the intellectual challenge of those frustrated people who are never listened to except on the internet.

I can imagine that professional pundits find the amateurs quite annoying. After all, if you are an expert opinion-giver, all those less experienced, less articulate, less well-known, wanna' be opinionators must be a terrible annoyance.

A little democracy is a good thing, but when the plebes start criticizing the aristocrats -- and on the internet no less -- now that is disgusting isn't it?

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
110. No, you aren't on my ignore list.
Wed Mar 27, 2013, 07:11 AM
Mar 2013

My auto-hide list mostly includes words that are included in thread titles that are destined from the start to become nothing more than insult fests.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
116. At the top right, click on
Wed Mar 27, 2013, 10:56 AM
Mar 2013

'my account', then click on 'trash can'. You can greatly improve DU by using the word trash can.

get the red out

(13,466 posts)
52. Absolutely
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:30 PM
Mar 2013

I have experienced those traps. There are literally some topics that cannot be discussed without someone lying in wait to pounce on and set the offender right (or run them off).

 

quinnox

(20,600 posts)
11. yup, my reaction is to just trash the "privilege" threads
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:54 AM
Mar 2013

whenever they pop-up. Basically, they seem to be trying to get people to feel guilty for factors beyond their control - being born white, being male, etc.
I just think they are dumb and a waste of time. And its true, there is an element of self-righteousness and finger wagging involved in them too, probably that is one reason some post them, it puts themselves on a pedestal >

 

quinnox

(20,600 posts)
14. I feel the same way
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 04:01 AM
Mar 2013

I honestly have been thinking about putting the word "rape" in the exclusion list, so any threads with that word in the title are automatically trashed. I really don't understand why, but there seems to be a handful of duers who seem to love to post threads about that topic, constantly.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
15. I started to wonder if I was one of the few who didn't get the super-secret memo about some
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 04:08 AM
Mar 2013

crazy rumor that DU had been infested with a slew of rapists. All rape, all the time, ad nauseum.

mattclearing

(10,091 posts)
16. This article is crap.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 04:16 AM
Mar 2013

Every time I see someone berate progressives for doing something which republicans and even independents are ten times worse about, it pisses me off.

The idea that the person pointing out privilege is the bad guy, when the opponent is generally spouting some maker/taker elitist bullshit, really aggravates me.

At least the obnoxious progressive can spell, and I think this writer may not be too clear on the difference between righteousness and simply being correct.

Telling some right-wing asshat that they benefit from privilege and shouldn't judge themselves superior isn't self-righteous bullying, it's standing up to a bully.

At any rate, this article is some ridiculous straw man shit. For someone who sees so much of it, this writer gives no concrete examples, just lots of generalist, mushy nonsense.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,321 posts)
31. It's not about "telling some right-wing asshat that they benefit from privilege"
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:22 AM
Mar 2013

It's about telling progressives that they benefit from privilege. And whether it's done in a productive way, or as a simple 'holier-than-thou' rebuke.

"Every time I see someone berate progressives for doing something which republicans and even independents are ten times worse about, it pisses me off. "

That could have been a quote from the article.

mattclearing

(10,091 posts)
70. Perhaps.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:39 PM
Mar 2013

I've re-read this article a few times since my initial post. I may have been harsh. My main concern is that this is still basically an anti-PC argument. I think most people know the difference between pointing out that 'tranny' isn't an acceptable term and a trigger warning for globophobes on an article about balloons. I don't imagine there were any belligerent globophobes screaming in all caps. "how dare you marginalize me for my fear of balloons," and even if there were, the writer couldn't be bothered to provide a link.

An anti-PC argument, even from left of center, still seeks to excuse behavior that is insensitive and/or ignorant. This writer is complaining about the solution when the problem is still far from solved.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
41. Yep. Progressives being mean is a huge issue... desth threats, rape threats, and
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 09:52 AM
Mar 2013

the ubiquitous mean conservatives, I guess those are less interesting phenomena.

Kurovski

(34,655 posts)
100. It looks like an observation on the part of the author. I think she says so in the text.
Tue Mar 26, 2013, 10:13 PM
Mar 2013

Having picked the wrong fight is her point. That's what she's observing.

She states that she won't fight it at all.

No fighting.

Of course, I won't begrudge it if you perceive those to be " fighting words."

But again: She won't be beside you in your fight. Or so she says.

wryter2000

(46,051 posts)
54. I tend to agree with you
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:35 PM
Mar 2013

It's hard to evaluate what she's talking about without at least a few examples, but I suspect you're right that it's the sort of "you must be tolerant of everything, including intolerance" crap you sometimes see on liberal sites. "Am I being fair to the racist?"

She says at one point that she's almost forced to defend the "asshole." If the person's being an asshole, is it bullying to point out that they're being an asshole?

Still, what she said is too vague to really be sure what she's talking about.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
66. Her vagueness seems to suit people just fine...
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:00 PM
Mar 2013

makes it easier to project what they're thinking about onto what she's writing.

mattclearing

(10,091 posts)
74. Yep.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:48 PM
Mar 2013

A lot of the agreement here immediately projects the piece onto recent DU flamewars. I don't think those examples really fit the bill.

mattclearing

(10,091 posts)
73. The tolerant of my intolerance argument occurred to me as well.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:46 PM
Mar 2013

I was saying above that any anti-PC argument, even from left of center, still seeks to excuse insensitive/ignorant behavior. This writer seems to have picked the less progressive side of this argument. The more progressive argument is, "We have to point out insensitivity until people everywhere learn to express themselves in ways that don't hurt and/or marginalize others." That's not bullying; it's the exact opposite.

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
75. We have to point out insensitivity until people everywhere learn to express themselves in ways that
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:56 PM
Mar 2013

It is this EXACT IDEA with which I disagree totally.

mattclearing

(10,091 posts)
95. That's ok.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 09:20 PM
Mar 2013

I don't see that viewpoint as bullying, though. This article is basically making excuses for people who might one day be considered different from those who use socially unacceptable terms for their fellow humans only by degrees. Today it's the n word, and things like bitch and retarded are on notice, but tomorrow it could be fatty or any other number of frankly horrible terms which are unacceptable.

I think pointing out the harmful intent and consequences of that kind of behavior is a worthwhile pursuit.

Kurovski

(34,655 posts)
96. Not everyone uses words with the same intent.
Tue Mar 26, 2013, 03:10 AM
Mar 2013

Not everyone reacts the same way.

That author has young women as her followers. The word "bitch" means many more (and different) things to them than it does to their grandmothers, and most likely they don't use it around grandma. they really don't need to be lectured on it.

You could spend the entirity of a life addressing directly every use of the word bitch in the world today. It's not always used hatefully.

Just flipping channels, you can hear it every single day Network, not just cable.

it's a case of "I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means”

I don't use it at DU. Just using it derails and annoys. maybe in ten more years, if DU is still around it will return with ease.






mattclearing

(10,091 posts)
97. Agreed.
Tue Mar 26, 2013, 04:06 AM
Mar 2013

It's not necessarily the word so much as the perception fueled by the use of language to set people apart, to make some superior and others less than. That is worth combatting, and I believe that this kind of thing continues to improve with time. The Internet has accelerated the process, as people learn more and more about each other.

Kurovski

(34,655 posts)
24. Here is one of the 446 comments I read.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:39 AM
Mar 2013

"Great article, I read it on their website yesterday. i don't think most readers here are too familiar with the extent to which this kind of thing occurs on liberal, and particularly feminist online spaces. CIF is essentially protected due to its size and the variety of people who comment here but it's very easy for a loud, obnoxious minority to effectively take over a smaller site and push their agenda on to it by name calling and excessively touting victim status, which ends up driving many more mainstream posters away.

Example: I once saw a harmless two paragraph post about tasteless Jersey Shore-type male jewellery turn into a 300-comment mass pile-on because apparently saying male jewellery is often tasteless is tantamount to the height of transphobia. And woe betide anyone who accidentally throws in the words 'lame' or 'insane' (ableist).

These people are cowards who are too afraid of engaging with anyone different to them that their idea of progress is to insult and bully people who are meant to be their allies, rather than trying to do anything concrete. To point out that many of them are white, privileged (in the traditional sense of the word) university graduates is almost a cliche."

Kurovski

(34,655 posts)
25. Part of another comment:
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:50 AM
Mar 2013

"The thing I never bought about the labeling of statements as "the tone argument" is that most people who mention it ignore the point of debate in this particular context - not just to distinguish fact from falsehood, but also to effect social change.

Obviously the emotion or style with which something is said does not affect its truth-value. But it does affect the penetrative ability of the truths you may be attempting to impart, by discouraging would-be debaters and discrediting yourself to people who might be more amenable to your views.

The only problem with criticizing tone is when it is used as a substitute for criticizing a position - in other words, as an emotional argument rather than as a legitimate critique of a person's willingness to engage in constructive discussion..."

Kurovski

(34,655 posts)
26. It's very odd in that we are seeing an ever-widening gap between rich and poor
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:16 AM
Mar 2013

in this country. and suddenly there is this shift from class disparity being addressed, to an overwhelming divide between the sexes being reinforced.

Just at the time when we would need each other more than ever.

if I were even more paranoid than I am I might suspect some vast organized operation to keep us occupied while that 1% finishes us off.

Latin America, here we come. if there is an epidemic of rape and bad attitudes about it now, let's see what it's like when we can no longer fund local police departments to any effective degree.

It is. Just so insane.

What is accomplished.? Division, and lots of it.


BTW, there is more in the comments section that seemingly addresses the chronic farking of DU. It's from a year and a half ago, and that seems to be when it started across some of the internet.

Divide and conquer. That's what the big girls and boys ALWAYS like to do.

Old and In the Way

(37,540 posts)
56. You are not alone in your observations...
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:36 PM
Mar 2013

I am in complete agreement. I am convinced that there are more than a few posters who use their anonymity to tie this board up in semantic knots.

Kurovski

(34,655 posts)
71. A few weeks ago on "Up With Chris Hayes"
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:40 PM
Mar 2013

he did an episode on the worldwide feminist movement, in it Mona Eltahawy mentioned how the Right wing uses reasonable sounding ways to disrupt discussion, and word wrasslin' would be one of them

A troll is a troll is a troll. The result is the same, no matter where it comes from. it's fun, but it's still trolling.

I could not find much video on the show, but it was a good one.


http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/02/07/feb-9-gloria-steinem-marlo-thomas-melissa-harris-perry/

EDIT: i'm also going to include folks who would purposefully Use language that they know will cause a storm, and no other purpose. I think the vast majority of DUers can unravel the whole schmeer. The jury system used to *mostly* prove that out. I miss not seeing the jury results for that reason.


 

backwoodsbob

(6,001 posts)
27. well said....a great article
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:06 AM
Mar 2013

I've almost quit this site a half dozen times in the last year not for anything personally said against me but because of the absolutely mean and divisive manner that more and more people have when approaching threads.

It seems like the intent here for far too many isn't to further discussion or inform people about news and events,it has rather become nothing more than a sport where the goal is to win as many threads as possible and shout down any who don't toe the line.

If Meta hadn't been shut down I probably would have completely quit with this site.It became nothing more than a launching platform to take personal grudges into the main forums and set up virtual lynch parties to go after posters who dared disagree with the loudest amongst us.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
58. I "quit" for many months because it seems ridiculous to argue with people I mostly agree with...
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:57 PM
Mar 2013

I didn't even notice that Meta had been eliminated.

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
28. One of the big ones:
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:12 AM
Mar 2013

"The intolerance and inability to respect that those who share your values might not share your opinions on this particular subject."

KharmaTrain

(31,706 posts)
29. Pretty Much Explains...
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:15 AM
Mar 2013

...why my postings and time on DU have been less and less...even DU vacations aren't helping any longer...

TransitJohn

(6,932 posts)
30. Remember when DU didn't suck?
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:21 AM
Mar 2013

At its inception, DU was on its way to being THE online progressive home. It was much better than Kos or FDL. Of course, the the purges came, and there are few quality content contributors left. Thanks for posting.

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
32. I think META exposed well the dark side of DU
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:25 AM
Mar 2013

So much so that even Skinner took a permanent vacation from it

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
33. Excellent article.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:57 AM
Mar 2013

And some very thoughtful responses, both at the article itself and here on DU. Good food for thought, thanks.

 

backwoodsbob

(6,001 posts)
35. that has what to do with what exactly?
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 09:25 AM
Mar 2013

I said for far too many on EVERY issue this has become nothing more than a *win the thread* sport.

I never said or implied anything about sex and/or gender in my comment and quite frankly never thought about that,instead making a comment about the general nastiness that has erupted on this and many other sites in general.

How the fact that I am male effects that comment is baffling to me.

Old and In the Way

(37,540 posts)
57. That's kind of the fault line that is being exploited here.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:47 PM
Mar 2013

making every male on this board into a rapist/rapist apologist/rapist enabler is becoming the 'goto' tool to take down this site as a place to talk about all progressive issues. Rape posts are sucking the life out of this site. Been on this board for over 12 years and I've never seen such a narrow subset of posters so focused on a single issue topic.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
38. I read a lot. And the point is, I find it interesting that that
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 09:37 AM
Mar 2013

the majority of Duers who posted in this, and are concerned about "privilege checking", are male.

Could be just a coincidence, I suppose.

TheKentuckian

(25,026 posts)
42. Just as most that seem fixated on it seem to be or where raised upper class and white.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:02 AM
Mar 2013

and seldom, if ever, seem to be concerned with the overall wealth disparity, unemployment, poverty, access to education and its quality, homelessness, or labor and generally those most vexed about privilege are always trying to downplay their's with horseshit like "despite being white and comfortable financially I'm quite low on the privilege index", yeah sure you are if you have like thirteen eyes, no legs, were abused as a child, and so ugly that you have to hang a fillet around your neck to get the dog to play with you.

yellowcanine

(35,699 posts)
55. I find it interesting that you can be so sure of gender just by user names.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:36 PM
Mar 2013
Really, even when the user name does seem to be obviously male or female, and many aren't, one can never actually be sure, is that not true?

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
104. User names actually have little or nothing to do with it,
Wed Mar 27, 2013, 03:23 AM
Mar 2013

except that I already knew that several posters were male simply because I have read many of their posts in the past.

If I told you the rest the CIA will sequester and dissect me.



 

quinnox

(20,600 posts)
37. maybe the fact this article quoted in the OP was written by a woman should be of interest then too
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 09:30 AM
Mar 2013

Kurovski

(34,655 posts)
76. It isn't true, and you could have checked it.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 06:01 PM
Mar 2013

The article is written by a woman.

But the fact that you didn't even have to tell us why you found it "interesting" is exactly why the article is to a degree about your online technique of communicating.

It's an invitation to rumble.

And a good day to you, dear DUer.



pacalo

(24,721 posts)
80. "It's an invitation to rumble."
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 06:54 PM
Mar 2013


Zorra: Interesting. I believe every responder to the OP up to this point is male. nt



Flamebait, pure & simple.


Zorra

(27,670 posts)
107. Please, allow me to spell it out for you. I'm sorry if my online technique of communicating may be
Wed Mar 27, 2013, 06:37 AM
Mar 2013

a bit too honest and direct for you. So I'd like to make it a bit clearer:

I really, really, sincerely and genuinely, totally don't like racism, sexism, misogyny, homophobia, etc.

And I really don't like seeing the racist, sexist, or homophobic slurs that help perpetuate racism, sexism, or homophobia used on a progressive board.

So I, and many others, point it out. If that makes me a bully in your estimation, sir,, then,...well, then I'd say your priorities are totally fucked up, from a reasonable progressive point of view, and that maybe someone is hitting a nerve and you maybe should pay attention. OMG, now I've gone and done it, I'm just another one of those silly progressive bully (insert your favorite slur for slutty, outspoken, uppity woman here:__________ just trying to be right. No, it couldn't be that maybe there is some validity and constructiveness to what I, and those minorities of which I am a member are trying to accomplish by pointing out things that might just possibly be actually destructive, could it?

So sorry if I upset you and hurt your feelings when I point out that it seems regressive to call a woman a "c", a black person a "n", or a man a "d". But regression seems to be the current trend in the Democratic party, so I suppose defending and promoting the use of slurs should be expected nowadays.

Oh, no...I'm voicing my opinions, and being a horrible bit bully again aren't I?

What are you, and the rest of the apologists for demeaning language, really defending? And why are you defending it so vehemently and continuously, at the same that time republicans are trying to take away the rights of women, and the Supreme Court is basically deciding if lgbt are to be considered to be legally human?

So, that's what's interesting, and yes, it is true that it was mostly, or all, men who had responded up to that point, and yes, of course I know a woman wrote that piece...it seemed like quasi conservative third way pseudo-progressive tripe to me...just so yesterday, you know,

like Mississippi, 1957...

...."We got the right ta call 'em anything we want, and anyone says I'm wrong needs to STFU, specially them Ivy League libruls comin' down heah, tellin' us how we's sposed ta think and what we's sposed ta say"

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
109. I think you missed the crux of the OP and the problems people here on DU are having
Wed Mar 27, 2013, 06:59 AM
Mar 2013

It is not the conversation so much as how it is conducted.

You, in general from what I have seen or noticed, have not been one of those that would fit what the OP was discussing.

But as to some issues you brought up: So sorry if I upset you and hurt your feelings when I point out that it seems regressive to call a woman a "c", a black person a "n", or a man a "d".

Something most would agree with you on.

Oh, no...I'm voicing my opinions, and being a horrible bit bully again aren't I?


I think we all voice our opinions here on a regular basis on many topics. It is not always what people say but how. And again, there are a few who are filled with abject hate who, instead of trying to discuss the topic at hand, go way off the tracks and accuse everyone of hating women, feminism, etc and rant half the thread.

I believe the OP was (partially) in reference to that.

And why are you defending it so vehemently and continuously, at the same that time republicans are trying to take away the rights of women, and the Supreme Court is basically deciding if lgbt are to be considered to be legally human?

And liberals are there to help stop the republicans and ensure people have rights they deserve. So let's focus on such things and not start telling every man who holds open a door he is sexist and needs educated. Just because people don't agree with you (using you here in the broader generic) on how to interpret things from micro aggression and benevolent sexism does not mean they hate women's rights and are somehow idiots who need constant instruction and teaching.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
121. Yes, good points, but every day we see examples in the news of
Wed Mar 27, 2013, 03:51 PM
Mar 2013

continuing widespread racism, sexism, and homophobia.

If we simply blow off and accept what are essentially kinder, gentler forms of expressing these ugly phenomena that are so deeply rooted in many cultures. what does that say, and what does that do?

Thirty years ago it was commonplace for straight people to call LGBT persons all kinds of derogatory slurs. If we did not resist, and protest, and most progressives did not join us, nothing would have changed.

Dominant groups often have a bit of difficulty understanding the position of minorites. What seems like a silly trifle to a member of a dominant culture might be another little brick that minority groups are struggling to remove from the wall in order to bring that wall down. And it is very often extremely difficult for us to get many members of the dominant culture to see it, because you don't, and have never, had to live it.

There are many intuitive, insightful, and intelligent members of minority groups here. When they try to post about issues that are well known within the group, but not even recognizable to the dominant culture, they're not doing it for their health, popularity, to be a bully, ,etc. They are trying to make the domination culture feel what they feel in their experience, in order that may further and more deeply understand that experience.

We are doing it to try to remove one more little piece of the wall, and we know it will take great persistence and determination to do so.

Because it always has. You apparently don't understand what the fuss is over benevolent sexism, how it is a holdover cultural institution rooted in the widespread all pervasive misogyny that existed in the past, and stuck as another "just the way things is" brick in the wall of the present.

It's difficult. We unsderstand that you are on our side, but just not fully cognizant of what we are trying to do to move us further down the road toward the ultimate goal of genuine equality.

Dentist, gotta go.

peace

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
122. Well I say Thank You - for one of the better replies here
Wed Mar 27, 2013, 04:40 PM
Mar 2013

Better than some I have used as you were absent the snark

You see I *DO* get what this is all about - I have for many years and I think I have posted some good ops that cover it (like when my now X found out she had Parkinson's and how folks view beauty, etc).

I am on the side of those in the minority - from gays to women to those suffering from mental issues, etc.

You said:

There are many intuitive, insightful, and intelligent members of minority groups here. When they try to post about issues that are well known within the group, but not even recognizable to the dominant culture, they're not doing it for their health, popularity, to be a bully, ,etc. They are trying to make the domination culture feel what they feel in their experience, in order that may further and more deeply understand that experience.


And what I would like to say in response is that many here are on the same side. What folks take umbrage with, if you will, is the HOW of it all and how it is explained by a few.

A vocal minority bum rush folks and attack them. We are on the same side, want the same things, but are made to be the enemy.

To be perfectly honest I get the core ideals expressed - holding doors open for women only, treating women differently than one treats a man, etc and so on.

But - and there is always a 'but' it seems - attacking those on your (and I use that in a general sense) side over smaller things when they are trying to help on the larger things in a visceral way does not help.

You can have people fighting for your equality day in and out, but when you start attacking them they will get naturally defensive. I am a progressive, vote that way to insure women have a right to choose, and have - over the years I hope - posted threads here that expose sexism.

I can't think of any DU'ers I know who want less than equal rights for women and gays. The problems that arise though are because a few will tell the many how they feel when they actually feel differently. Folks would be more than happy to have an open and honest discussion - but some want to make it personal and tell people that if they don't tow the line 100% on something they hate women.

Going back to holding open doors, since that was a hot topic for me and others, I did so for reasons that many may not get unless they were a man raised by a strong woman. My mom helped many out, taught me to treat others as equals, she was one of the people in this hood who welcomed the first black family here and stood up to those who were against them moving in.

You did so because it was right - not sure why, never fully asked why, but understood that it was something I should do out of respect for women. Yes, I did the same for men and others depending on the situation but in a general sense mom told me you hold the door open for a lady because it was the right thing to do.

Now, in this phase of society, I have to question every action I do. Mom taught me to be kind to everyone. But she stressed being good to black folks (who, around here, were treated like crap) and women (who also were treated like crap). She didn't tell me to treat white folks and men a certain way, maybe because they didn't need it at the time.

I come here, to DU, and find that liberal guys like me - to some - are the problem. And yeah, I have an issue with that.

Day in and out we have your, and other people's, back. But we get our asses kicked because we are told we don't get it, we don't care, we don't understand.

Maybe we don't fully get it. Maybe you don't fully understand what I am going through. But time and again you have folks here willing to work with women, with gays, with other minorities all in an effort to make a change for the best - and the people who are on the same side get their asses ripped.



yellowcanine

(35,699 posts)
113. You make a lot of assumptions about the motivations of other people.
Wed Mar 27, 2013, 09:22 AM
Mar 2013

How about saying what you think and allowing others to say what they think and not putting words into their mouths or thoughts into their heads or making assumptions about what they are thinking as a result of them being a certain gender? The discussion will go much better for you, I assure you.

Kurovski

(34,655 posts)
119. I spent an hour composing a response, and lost it with a finger slip. Gaaa!
Wed Mar 27, 2013, 02:39 PM
Mar 2013

I'll just cut out the prose and say maybe it would be easier on us all to pay more attention to intention. We might see less fighting when all are generally in agreement anyway.

I would ask that people take some of their passion and challenge, or inspire (rather than "bully') other people to challenge the ideas and dictates in their religion that are the source, and certainly the anchor that holds in place and justifies treatment of women, gays and even other races

I know for a fact that being told that God hates you because you're gay is worse than being called a derogatory term, but the knowledge that the term is justified by a God is the power behind all the abuse.

Anyone today who is about the business of "god's work" keeping his wife constrained and gays in contempt, needs disabusing of those notions in the year of our lord, 2013. Challenge the source. But a person can't fight fire with fire. Being dissmissive of them won't do it. Fortunately In some parts of the world, that person is just being...left behind. Still a long way off.

It's more difficult to get to the entrenched source of a problem.

And...The article says more than "words" being an issue, I just wanted to interject that.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
51. Imported meta from another site without any
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:13 PM
Mar 2013

actual examples of this supposed Fred Phelps-like abusive behavior.

Awesome.

I guess if people want to imagine that this author is describing the purported victimization of the 'politically incorrect' at DU, they're welcome to.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
59. Want a good example? The outrage from many DU'ers when Southern Fried Chicken, Collards etc
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 04:04 PM
Mar 2013

were served to celebrate Martin Luther King Day.

And the image I'm hotlinking to is from a commentator who did try to push it as being racist.

Come to find out, the staff who assembled the menu were mostly black. And this menu was comprised of MLK's favorite food.

GoCubsGo

(32,086 posts)
87. Soul food doesn't care what color is the soul's body.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:27 PM
Mar 2013

It feeds that soul, regardless. And, this white Midwesterner-by-birth loves the stuff. Especially that sweet potato souffle, and the corn bread and greens.

Hell, I even love grits.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
64. LMAO... your subject line cut off after 'chicken'... so I thought you were going to mention
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 04:58 PM
Mar 2013

the great corn flake chicken hatefest.

Then again one could also refer to the Olive Garden idiocy.

Or any of the many breastfeeding or circumcision debates.

Yes, DU never ever had an ugly side before meta

WolverineDG

(22,298 posts)
82. OMG, I remember that brou-ha-ha
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:05 PM
Mar 2013

totally a moment, with Northern DUers schooling us Southerners about how "racist" we are for wondering what was wrong with this menu, since EVERYONE in the South eats fried chicken & greens.....

yellowcanine

(35,699 posts)
53. "Online bullying - a New and Ugly Sport for Liberal Commenters"
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:32 PM
Mar 2013

Seems kind of shouty and trollish right there and about "shaming and righteousness....."

And I thought there were precious few specific examples given - mostly vague generalities. It seems the article is mostly about the author calling attention to herself by calling out people for ...... exactly what?, precisely the thing she is being critical of.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
94. Sorry for the crypnotic effect. Everyone was talking...
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 09:10 PM
Mar 2013

about intolerance & bullying among liberals, yet left out DU's history of treatment of 2A advocates. Until I mentioned it. I guess I could have posited that piece of irony anywhere.

yellowcanine

(35,699 posts)
99. I guess I didn't get it because I don't accept your premise.
Tue Mar 26, 2013, 10:04 AM
Mar 2013

I have served on plenty of juries and I have yet to see one example of gun advocates being bullied. They hold their own. BTW, "gun advocate" is not the same as "2A advocate". That is an NRA red herring. Few are advocating repeal of the 2nd Amendment, on DU or anywhere else.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
101. Well, great. I'm reassured that 2A advocates are just that,
Wed Mar 27, 2013, 12:25 AM
Mar 2013

and those who make up DU are on the frontlines of liberal & progressive thought.

I don't know about NRA red herrings or the ubiquitous "talking points." I do note among pro-2A proponents more concern about the disingenuous reminder: "No one is trying to take your guns." California tried unsuccessfully to pass a bill to do just that; other states also pulled legislation effecting the same. We are aware of those on DU who do advocate 2A's repeal, but the concern is over those who want bans, here & in political position.

Different perceptions on bullying, I guess.

yellowcanine

(35,699 posts)
112. To call asking for more regulation of guns "bullying" degrades the term.
Wed Mar 27, 2013, 09:04 AM
Mar 2013

And if you are going to use such a broad definition of bullying it seems to me it is the NRA and their backers who are trying to stifle debate, prohibit scientific studies on guns in society, and gag doctors from talking to patients about guns. And what is disingenuous is the NRA insistence that any reasonable regulation is the beginning of gun confiscation. Gun regulation vs. gun confiscation is a false choice and the NRA knows it.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
117. Don't buy your arguments in their face...
Wed Mar 27, 2013, 11:24 AM
Mar 2013

The characterizations the controllers have used fall frequently in the categories of personal & character smear, accusations that pro-2A folks are Republican trolls, are reactionairies and have no feelings about the deaths of children, among
others. Perhaps you have grown enured to these attacks? Perhaps you think they are accurate? I don't know. But you should review the archives (hell, just look over the recent stuff).

BTW, the term "bullying" is not cheapened by Pro-2A folks; as you infer they can handle it. It's the controllers which have cheapened the practice by failing in the effort.

Also, I'm not in the NRA; so that organization's behavior is irrelevant to this thread.

yellowcanine

(35,699 posts)
118. NRA is not irrelevant because "pro-2A" is an NRA talking point.
Wed Mar 27, 2013, 12:09 PM
Mar 2013

Sorry, but when one uses the same language and defines the debate the same way you are going to be associated with their arguments. If you don't like it, quit defining the debate as "pro-2A" vs "controllers" because that is not what the debate is about. It is about what kind of gun regulation is reasonable given our culture and our Constitutional freedoms - all of our Constitutional freedoms - not just 2A. And please don't put thoughts in my mind or words in my mouth. Just because I disagree with the term bullying as you define it doesn't mean I "infer they can handle it" and just because I disagree with your characterization of the gun debate on DU doesn't mean I am "enured to these attacks" or "think they are accurate." You make unwarranted characterizations of my arguments - does that mean you are bullying me?

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
120. Please. You are so tendentious; talk about cheapening the term "bully."
Wed Mar 27, 2013, 03:12 PM
Mar 2013

Last edited Wed Mar 27, 2013, 04:32 PM - Edit history (1)

I don't feel the least bullied by you.

I will end this conversation on a fairly undeniable note: Virtually every argument the Controllers disagree with here in the gun debate on DU is called an "NRATalkingPoint," marcus registrada. Maybe that's a drill, maybe that's mantra, maybe that's "cheapening" terms. Frankly, I think most folks on DU are kind of sick & tired of that form of rather extremist rhetoric. Have a good day.

By the way

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1172&pid=116779

yellowcanine

(35,699 posts)
123. Nice - "I will end this conversation... good day." but BTW - here is 1 more dig.
Wed Mar 27, 2013, 05:14 PM
Mar 2013

Keeping it classy. Talk about tendentious.....

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
67. It's cute how she acts ike lliberals are unique.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:06 PM
Mar 2013

People argue. This kinda crap goes on between people of all political ideologies, about all kinds of things (not just privilege)... one gets the impression that someone called her out for an insensitive remark, and rather than just disagree and move on, she's decided to not only carry a chip on her shoulder over it, but also cast this event as a sign of some huge problem that's unique to liberals.

I've seen this editorial bandied and picked apart multiple times since it was written.

Kurovski

(34,655 posts)
77. Authors almost never create the titles of their articles. An editor does,
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 06:26 PM
Mar 2013

and it needs to be catchy.

I think even that's covered in the comments section, but I did ten hours of reading yeaterday and i'm not certain.

One thing that is clear is her theory that people do it for an audience. people who demand that you see only one point and communicate it "properly" by narrow standards. She has invited outraged folks to email and discuss, and she claims she's had---was it one?--respondent to that in her career.

Wouldn't overt examples be a form of public shaming? People could just search down who she was talking about.

Re-read the article if you really want to know what it's about, and this time think iin terms of progressives being narrow of thought, and unforgiving of the other. Maybe it will seem less generic to you and the themes will emerge. it also seemed clear to me that she feels some people use it for sport ot therapy. Again, I read every single comment too. Over 400 of them.


I do agree that it's not the most tightly written piece. There is info there on the page that reveals it was pulled from a blog entry.

I can't too greatly fault those who decry its level of vagueness.

Zoeisright

(8,339 posts)
68. What a bunch of bullshit.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:13 PM
Mar 2013

The worst and most bullying comments I ever see on ANY online forum or article comments are by repukes. Please.

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
69. Well that's just skipping around the issue, really isn't it?
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:22 PM
Mar 2013

One group bullies so another doesn't? Doesn't really work like that.

Kurovski

(34,655 posts)
79. I think "Bullying" is overused and misused, but that's my opinion and I've lived long
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 06:48 PM
Mar 2013

enough to know words rise from the culture, even memes can't be imposed inorganically without many years and millions of dollars of media'

"Progressivews who bully", like many new concepts that seem untrue for us, or "out of character", but of course there is some truth. (I think using "bullying" in this context in the article waters-down the word's meaning. But that train left the station long ago)

As example, the term" rape culture" has a lot of truth behind it. it's shocking, accusatory, but the more you think about it the more it makes sense.

Shock is good. self-examination is good. But if someone is just being an asshole, that;'s not the greatest way to breakdown defenses. A bully does indeed act like an asshole to tear the other down, but what is the gain? Or the goal?

I suspect some people on this thread see the author as something of an asshole, and are reacting as one would expect. Her message is being blocked.

When someone acts the arsehole on DU, be it over religion, guns, sex, likewise too the perception that one is merely being attacked by an asshole blocks whatever communication, transmission of info, that could have occurred.

It happens everywhere.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
81. I remember this guy on DU who posted about taking his favorite girl at the time out for an expensive
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:01 PM
Mar 2013

dinner and getting his virtual ass handed to him because many DU'ers thought expensive dinners where the work of the devil.

Kurovski

(34,655 posts)
88. Was that...
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:29 PM
Mar 2013

W-I-L-L?

Seriously, I was trying to think of a time when liberals went after him, but my memory sux.

I know it has happened 1-78 times.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
83. She's an author who has seen too many readers' comments derailing the subject matter
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:17 PM
Mar 2013

with their own semantics issues.

Kurovski

(34,655 posts)
85. here is what cshe says:
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:23 PM
Mar 2013

I'm the Seattle-based publisher of a network of lifestyle websites read by roughly one million people each month. Almost all of our readers are women, most of them are educated and many of them are quite politically liberal.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
89. As a Meta survivor (heh), I found her observations were right on the money.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:35 PM
Mar 2013

You win the thread of the year for posting that article, Kurovski. Great find.

Kurovski

(34,655 posts)
84. it's about progressives bossing each other around. "More liberal than thou"
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:17 PM
Mar 2013

"My way, or you're a right wing thug"

You can't say the word "derp" etc.

Will, did you read too fast?

of course Righties win the bullying contest, they always have throughout history.

This is about Lib-on-Lib crime.

EDIT: Kurska's response #1 at the top of the thread says it all, IMO.

Kurovski

(34,655 posts)
92. OK "strong and silent" I think I see what you mean.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:16 PM
Mar 2013

"...I'm not on board with the tactics – which essentially amount to liberal bullying, and are way worse than anything I see from the conservatives who swing by my publications."

She would not have the kind of traffic you find on yahoo...she has young women as an audience "offbeat" lifestyle. How many 52 year old right wing men look for hip, edgy wedding ideas? I'm guessing her conservatives are the SE Cupp variety, but even younger. i can also see second wave extremist morality squads swooping down on 'em. That's the implication in the article. I imagine they'll be seeing a few well-heeled pissed off grans re-visiting again soon.

"ya"

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
127. So the author wants more communication
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 01:13 AM
Mar 2013

but doesn't care about a b or c. Those conditions mean the author will ignore you completely.

Goodluck with that.

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