Over 1,057,000 people have been killed by guns in the USA since John Lennon was shot and killed...

[onehandle]

From Yoko Ono:

https://twitter.com/yokoono/status/314339147672322050

[Mojorabbit]

1. If the 60 percent of gun deaths are suicides number holds up

then we have a huge problem. It is appalling that so many people are at the end of their ability to endure their lives. It is tragic.
Peace, Mojo

[Yukari Yakumo]

54. Don't forget accidents and instances of self-defense. {nt}

[graham4anything]

2. One of the greatest men of peace, died a violent death

and nothing has changed because of some greedy selfish people who only think of their
false icon, the bullet and a gun, and their authoritarian control over the majority of people
who want to end the insanity of bullets and guns in the streets in the hands of private people with a false interpretation of a corrupt supreme court.

[Eleanors38]

5. "greedy & selfish?" How many tens of millions are there?

[graham4anything]

10. 320 million Americans. The NRA is less than 4 million. 1%.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172115628

[Eleanors38]

26. You forgot the 80,000,000 other Americans, including millions of Democrats.

[graham4anything]

43. I loved Charlotte Rubens. She died at 102. Her son will win the Noble Peace Prize in'18.

Too bad she won't be here to see the Noble Peace Prize awarded to her son in 2018.
The same year Barack Obama is elevated to the US Supreme Court.

God Blessed us with Charlotte Rubens.

[apocalypsehow]

3. If a manufacturer tried to bring to market today a product that when USED AS INTENDED was projected

to kill over a million Americans in the span of thirty years, can you imagine the outcry? It simply wouldn't make it off the drawing boards or out of the patent process and onto a production line.



Time for America to grow up about guns and start taking the steps toward Australian/Canadian/Western European style gun laws.

[Eleanors38]

4. More bans and prohibitions? Same as it ever was.

[apocalypsehow]

7. Whatever that's supposed to mean. Bottom line is, as the country continues to turn Blue, meaningful

gun legislation is coming to the United States, my friend. Right along the lines of Australia, Canada, Western Europe, Japan, Mexico, etc., etc., the entire rest of the civilized world, in other words.

Better get used to it.

[Eleanors38]

23. The country's blueing would be facilitated by dropping gun bans.

[apocalypsehow]

27. Nope. n/t.

[Scuba]

44. Public opinion says otherwise. In January I was tailgating before the Packer/Vikings playoff ...

... game. Six of us Wisconsinites were talking guns - all gun owners. All agreed we'd be happy to live without our firearms if it would stop the killing. All agreed that high capacity/rapid fire firearms were unnecessary and unwanted. Half us us were Scott Walker supporters.

Your opinions are out of touch.

[Skip Intro]

19. +1.

[Shankapotomus]

9. + 1 nt

[Bay Boy]

11. I imagine one could say

the same thing if we only had mass transportation and someone wanted to invent the private ownership of automobiles.

[apocalypsehow]

13. And I imagine one could say...

...bullshit. And that one would be right:

Cars, when used as intended by the companies that manufacture them, are not designed to kill people, but to convey them places they wish to go.

But, then, you knew that.

[onehandle]

34. The gun fetishists goto straw man.

Automobiles serve a practical purpose.

Guns do not.

[Bay Boy]

59. Oh what bullshit!

Someone makes up a fantasy story about "What if guns were never invented?" and then complains about me suggesting something equally ridiculous about "what if cars were never invented?" It's all BS.

[SunSeeker]

71. Way to miss the point....

[Blanks]

38. No kidding. Compare that to the number killed by lawn darts. eom

[hack89]

47. Cigarettes have killed 13 million people since 1980

yet they are still legal and manufacturers introduce new products all the time. This week we saw how many people are killed annually by sugar.

I think you overestimate America's ability to be shocked into action.

[apocalypsehow]

49. Another absurd strawman argument. The day a mass murderer is able to take out a classroom full

of kids with his pack of cigarettes, you get back to us okay?

"This week we saw how many people are killed annually by sugar."

And the absurdities just keep on coming. If you can't discern the difference between a firearm spraying lethal loads of lead into human bodies - doing what it was designed to do, in other words - and folks consuming too much sugar to the detriment of their own health, then I can't help you. No one is "killed" by sugar, annually or otherwise: tens of thousands of people are killed by guns.

Of course, the offensive thing is you can the discern the difference - one would have to be either utterly unhinged or severely intellectually disabled in order not to be able to discern the difference - but simply don't care: this is "RKBA enthusiast" nonsense at it's worse, using any absurd argument and/or strawman at hand in order to deflect attention away from the real problem in this country, that being the proliferation and ease of access to firearms.

[hack89]

50. Just pointing out that it is hard to shock the American public

after the spectacular failure of the AWB this week, even you should be able to figure that out.

[apocalypsehow]

51. No, you were attempting to indulge in a pair of false analogies, that between guns which when USED

AS DESIGNED kill human beings by propelling piece of lead down a barrel at high speeds, and a pack Marlboro's or a bag of sugar.

It is an absurd analogy and ridiculous strawman; you were called on it; you have no effective reply; end of story.

[hack89]

53. I understand your frustration. It has been a tough week for gun control after all.

don't be sad - I am sure things will get better.

[apocalypsehow]

55. Not a bit of it: Colorado adopted three pieces of gun legislation just yesterday; NY's SAFE Act is

on the books; and other states are advancing meaningful gun legislation. The only thing holding up similar legislation on the national level is (1) GOP control of the House and (2) the peculiar rules in the Senate regarding the filibuster and adoption of amendments.

As the country continues to turn Blue, those impediments will be swept away. And then we'll see who is "frustrated."

[hack89]

56. Colorado passed them after they dropped the AWB - just like Congress.

You and I see eye to eye on most gun control measures with the exception of an AWB and registration. That appears to be the line that the US public is also drawing. Some good laws will come out of all this - universal background checks being number one.

[SunSeeker]

75. Yeah, and we get to sue the cigarette companies. But the gun mfrs made sure they're immune.

Gun manufacturers are the only manufacturers of consumer products that are immune from suit, thanks to legislation the NRA slipped into an unrelated bill years ago.

And we can prevent people from smoking in public buildings, where their smoke can affect out lungs. But I can't prevent gun nuts from stockpiling guns in my neighborhood where my kid plays--or even know that they're doing it. You call progressives "controllers," but I have no control over my and my own kid's safety when it comes to gun nuts. It is all in the hands of the gun nuts. The gun nut has control; gun nuts are the controllers, not the American people. It is a sick situation that has to change. And is changing.

America has been changed by Sandy Hook. It is obvious you still have not come to terms with that. Who would have imagined that gun control measures would be passed in COLORADO of all places just 6 months ago? And you call it a tough week for gun control....

[hack89]

93. I support all the Colorado gun control laws

the only gun control laws I do not support is an AWB and registration. Which is where America seems to be drawing the line.

My comment about a tough week was directed at the more fringe and extreme gun controllers who have fantasies of actually banning guns. Laws like universal background checks and cracking down on illegal gun trafficking are common sense laws that many gun owners support.

[SunSeeker]

110. You're not fooling anyone.

The AWB and registration ARE common sense laws. A majority of Americans support an AWB. Stop lying.

Your comment about a "tough week for gun control" was not directed at an "extreme gun controller" who wants to "ban all guns" but someone who wants what the majority of Americans want, an Assault Weapons Ban. You are the extremist.

[hack89]

111. How can I be lying when the reality is staring you in the face?

1. Congress won't pass an AWB.

2. No other state is attempting to pass an AWB.

3. Even Colorado did not attempt to pass an AWB.

It does not appear that AWBs are as popular as you think.

[SunSeeker]

112. Bullshit. The gun lobby is REALLY fighting the AWB, because it will cost them $$$$$$$$.

The AR seems to be the weapon of choice for gun nuts--because, you know, it gives them their manhood.



You do not and cannot refute that the majority of Americans want an AWB. The fact that Congress and cowering state legislators won't pass it does not mean it is unpopular, it just shows their cowardice in the face of the gun lobby's money wall.

Congress won't pass an increase in the minimum wage bill, nor close tax loopholes for the rich--both extremely popular measures. And what do all of these popular yet unpassed measures have in common? The oligarchs don't like them because it would cost them money.

[hack89]

113. A small majority want an AWB - about 56%

Additionally, that support is not evenly distributed. There are many states where the majority oppose an AWB.


And you are wrong about ARs and gun nuts. Handguns are the weapon of choice for mass shooters (and murders in general).

[SunSeeker]

116. The biggest body counts belong to ARs: Aurora, Newtown...

And the rest tend to use semi-automatic pistols with high capacity magazines, pretty much the functional equivalent of ARs.

[hack89]

117. Va Tech?

standard mag.

ARs kill maybe a 100 people a year. Handguns 30,000.

[SunSeeker]

120. Cho took 3 hours to kill 32; Lanza killed 26 in 5 minutes.

The fact is, when ARs are used the body count is staggering and happens way faster than with a hand gun. ARs have no business being in civilian hands. The majority of Americans agree with me.

But you will continue to defend ARs as you hijack thread after thread to spread your pro-gun right wing propaganda.

Maybe some day the mods will realize how much the gungeoneers make DU suck.

[hack89]

121. You have one example.

The Aurora shooter used a shotgun first, his AR jammed so he used a handgun.

Show me the list shootings with staggering body counts from ARs - I am curious to see what you really know.

[SunSeeker]

123. I already gave you 2 examples, and, I am not here to do your bidding.

You have wasted enough of my time on this thread. Every time I address your point, you change the subject. And by doing so, you veer off topic and derail the thread, all the while poisoning the thread with your right wing gun propaganda. It's your m.o. and I don't want to be your enabler.

If you want to jabber on about how wonderful and innocent ARs are, do your own research and post your post in the gungeon. This post is about Yoko Ono's tweet regarding how many people have been killed by guns since John Lennon was shot.

[hack89]

125. Didn't think you had anything. nt

[hack89]

114. More people think the NRA reflects their views on guns than President Obama

Question 40 from the Quinnipiac poll:

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/institutes-centers/polling-institute/national/release-detail/?ReleaseID=1847

[SunSeeker]

115. That is because the NRA and RW media lie that Obama wants to ban all guns.

The right knows how to push propaganda. Look how many people think Saddam was behind 9-11, or that there are death panels in the ACA.

But way to hijack this thread, hack!

[thucythucy]

132. I hate to say this, but

all this will hold true until the next disturbed person with a Bushmaster "Man Card" takes out a primary school, or a pre-school, or an intensive care neo-natal unit.

At which point everything will again be in flux.

The horrific thing is such an event is sure to happen.

Sure as the sun rises, and hundreds of millions of guns are sloshing around in our society, some disturbed person will work out his (most likely it will be a "his&quot issues on innocent people not similarly armed with "a man card."

I wish it were otherwise.

[graham4anything]

6. 800 mayors against guns. Yoko & Mike Bloomberg

[img][/img]

[ProgressiveProfessor]

12. You might want to check the felony rate of MAIG...

[onehandle]

40. They are standing pretty much where her husband was shot five times in the back.

I've stood right there too.

Heroic woman. I couldn't stand to live there if I was her.

[brooklynite]

8. Why is John Lennon a relevant marker point?

Plenty of people killed before him. Plenty killed after.

[onehandle]

15. I dunno. Maybe this Yoko Ono person knew him.

[slackmaster]

25. I think it's because the magic round number of one million has been surpassed recently

Really not a very big number over 42+ years in a country with as many people as we have, especially if you consider that more than half of those deaths were suicides.

We live in a very safe country. Most violent crime occurs in blighted areas of large cities.

[timdog44]

124. I beg to differ with you.

A million is a big number no matter what size the country is. No matter whether murder, suicide or accident.

[X_Digger]

29. It's an icon for the targeted group in this culture war.

When you want to motivate a certain section of folks, talk about John. Want to target a younger group? Mention Kurt (Cobain). Younger still? Tupac.

[Lizzie Poppet]

61. Precisely.

Dadrock pop musician becomes cultural icon to aging hippies by way of being murdered by a lunatic...

[subject]

129. Sgt Pepper's..., to say NOTHING of his vocal belief in non-violent protest and it's being

instrumental in cultural revolution that helped stop the Vietnam war which he was also loudly opposed to. Just like Martin Luther King JR., Mohandas Ghandi and Joe Kennedy (all killed with guns by the way). Hardly and I mean HARDLY insignificant group of dadrock pop schlockers that were made famous simply 'cuz they were murdered. The latter all made it into your history textbooks kid didn't they?....John did not. Wanna know why? It was cuz he was too contraversial, cuz he smoked weed and did LSD and believed in the power and beauty of love and his duty to express it.
John Lennon's death was the least significant thing about him.

[thucythucy]

130. I suspect he was "a cultural icon"

before he was murdered.

[JanMichael]

52. are you kidding?

John Lennon?

[Logical]

14. There is no way to disarm America at this point. Too many guns in circulation! n-t

[graham4anything]

17. 90% used to smoke. Now 90% don't.

Many people also used to march with the John Birch Society.
Now a handful of people do, and many more spit at them as they walk by.

The public changes.
The congress changes.
The judges change.

The NRA is dead, they just don't realize it yet.And without the NRA, there is no pro-gun movement.

They should be treated as the terroristic orgnaization they are. And a paper trail of where the money came from and where the money went.

[Logical]

24. This place was 100% sure things would change after Giffords and then Sandy Hook....

and nothing has changed and I doubt congress will change much.

The NRA is evil. And a right wing bunch of nuts. I 100% agree.

But 300 millions guns are not going to go away and banning them is against the constitution. And collecting them is impossible and illegal.

There are a lot of gun nuts and a lot of normal, democratic gun owners.

9,000 murders a year happen with guns. Out of 300 million guns owned.

Nothing will change.

[guardian]

31. In other words

"9,000 murders a year happen with guns. Out of 300 million guns owned."

Which is the same as saying 99.997% of all guns never are involved in a murder.

[SunSeeker]

127. No, there are 80M US gun owners and 40K gun deaths/yr.

So, every year, one in 2, 000 gun owners is involved in a gun death. Most are suicides.

[graham4anything]

42. as the old song said "Things get a little easier, once you understand"

The NRA is like the Knight who said Ni, dead.

The Mighty golliath NRA was defeated by the David, Meek Mike, the Great Equalizer
The NRA can gloat all it wants. It's dead.

[RoccoR5955]

16. Lennon wasn't murdered, he was assassinated!

His killer had all the symptoms of other CIA hitmen. You know those that assassinated King, and Bobby Kennedy.

[duffyduff]

21. He was murdered; there was no political intent involved in the killing. n/t

[RoccoR5955]

48. says you!

Believe me, there was plenty of political involvement in his assassination.

[Marblehead]

33. i saw a

youtube vid where Sean and Yoko admitted that they believe it was a hit....

[RevStPatrick]

62. Of course it was a hit.

He was about to make a big comeback.
And he wasn't going to keep his mouth shut.
It was a pilot project of the BFEE, who knew they were going to use the same MO a few months later when they hit Reagan. But first, they wanted to send the left into a tizzy over their fallen hero, so that they (we) wouldn't care as much when Reagan got it.

And... To me, that is one of the most powerful photographs ever taken...

[baldguy]

18. The NRA & its gun-nut allies say: "NOT ENOUGH!"

[slackmaster]

20. That's all?

Someone has been slacking off.

[WillyT]

22. K & R !!!

[The Straight Story]

28. And 50 million owned guns for 419,750,000,000 days collectively during that time

give or take. What percent is that?

365 * 23years * 50 million gun owners (did not include amount of guns owned)

[onehandle]

30. Fancy math.

Dead kindergarteners.

Guns fetishism will lose, eventually.

[The Straight Story]

32. Feel free to re-do it to show the % of guns vs guns used

If you don't like my fancy math. Actual guns outnumber owners though.

And some would say the same about abortions - that it is fetishism because of how people want to protect their right to have one (a right I am all for) no matter what.

Standing up for something you think it is a right is fetishism now? I will make sure to use that word instead of freedom or rights from now on for you.

[onehandle]

35. Put up with you and your weird ass, off topic posts polluting GD long enough.

Welcome to ignore.

[SunSeeker]

64. But now you'll never be on a jury for him.

I think a lot of DUers have been putting gungeoneers on ignore. And so less and less sane people are in the pool to be on their jury and therefore they seem to be surviving alerts--even when they say batshit crazy right wing troll crap.

[tarheelsunc]

69. I wasn't even aware of that. This should probably be an OP somewhere. eom

[SunSeeker]

70. They got rid of META, so I'm not sure where to post it...

[Melon_Lord]

45. Only certain rights...

Whichever ones happen to be popular based on the news cycle...

[Progressive dog]

36. Hey, we only have 4x the gun murder rate of the #3 country

and that's not even counting the gun suicides. The NRA propaganda team is hard at work spinning this into another reason we need more guns.

[ramapo]

37. The Second Amendment is more important

Nothing trumps the religious fervor that surrounds the Second Amendment. It means more to most of America than a million plus lost lives. Banning the manufacture and sale of some guns, god forbid buying guns back from owners, confiscating illegal weapons, even stringent licensing requirements for owners are all seen as greater assaults on our society than the loss of a millions plus lives. This is a sick, sick country.

[ReRe]

39. Probably the most important tweet I've ever seen...

... thanks Yoko Ono! Wake up America.

[Kalidurga]

41. I love threads like this they reveal a lot about people that post on them...

From the gun advocates I have learned this

*suicides deaths aren't tragic or violent so we shouldn't worry about those gun deaths.

* gun violence in urban areas isn't as important as gun violence in other areas and gun violence isn't as bad in other areas so you know carry on nothing to see here.

* statistically more people are killed by cars so it's not important how many are killed by guns and most gun deaths are suicides so they aren't an important part of the conversation anyway.

* lots of democrats own guns so we can't um like regulate them or those democrats might look to be a part of another party or some such nonsense.

Seriously do the gun nuts actually think about what they are typing or are they just too busy defending the right to own as many killing machines as possible?

[SunSeeker]

78. What I have learned is that we have a lot of right wing gun trolls masquerading as "progressives."

And they are making DU suck. I recently had one of our more prolific gungeoneers throw out a line about George Soros that is straight off of Fox News.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2541320

And yet the mods let them stay and hijack any threads that touch on guns, like they have this thread. It appears their purpose is to spread disinformation and derail any discussions that raise the need for gun control.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

81. Is that the post re

"George Soros gave $24 million to political groups in 2004 alone

"So don't tell me that progressive organizations can't raise money for important causes.

"Stop blaming the NRA for your failures.

In what way exactly is this, according to you, "straight off of Fox News"?

You didn't just make that up did you?

[SunSeeker]

85. Progressives don't raise George Soros as a bogeyman.

If you read the thread, you'll see he was implying that progressives could just go to Soros for any amounted they needed for gun control, in response to my discussion of the money wave coming from the NRA/gun manufacturers. The lie that George Soros writes limitless checks to the left is a Fox News meme. Just Google Soros on FoxNews.com and check out the opinion pieces. Also, just factually, Soros is not known to give to gun control causes.

As I stated in my response to him:

And how much did Fox News' favorite bogeyman Soros donate in 2012? How much did the Koch brothers?

The only billionaire I am aware of that donates any significant amount to gun control is Bloomberg. That hardly makes up for the wave of money on the right to block any gun control measures, like universal background checks that are supported by 91% of Americans. But it's not supported by the NRA, so we don't have it. The NRA IS to blame.

To suggest that the billionaire gun mfrs via the NRA have the same money as the left is a ridiculous lie.

Stop defending the NRA. They, and anyone who supports the NRA, has blood on their hands.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

91. Bingo! You got to write "NRA" five times.

[SunSeeker]

146. Um, try again, it was six. LOL

You really seem to have issues with math, as your other posts in this thread indicate. Sure you're not a Republican?

[AnotherMcIntosh]

147. OK. "NRA/gun" one time. "NRA/gun" and "NRA" for a total of six times.

[hack89]

139. You missed my point

it was not about Soros specifically. I was just pointing out that there is plenty of money for progressive causes. It just doesn't seem to be spent on gun control. You need to fix that if you want to succeed. That's all.

NRA bad - we get it. So now go and build a progressive counterpart instead of making excuses.

[SunSeeker]

140. I didn't miss your point. Nor your blatant use of RW propaganda.

Last edited Sun Mar 24, 2013, 08:24 PM - Edit history (1)

Which is what I was pointing out. And I am not going to go out and create a "progressive counterpart" even if I could. "Progressive NRA" is an oxymoron.

[hack89]

141. Progressive gun control counterpart to the NRA

stop being obtuse.

Are you really saying that it is impossible to go head to head with the NRA? I thought Newtown was a game changer - surely there is no better time to take on the NRA

[SunSeeker]

142. Well, now that you add the word "control" that no longer makes it a counterpart, but an opponent.

I though you were referring to a "progressive gun owners association"--something gungeoneers claim to be. And my point is that such a thing cannot exist. The "gun rights" position of the Republican-run NRA cannot mesh with progressive positions holding people above the profits of gun manufacturers.

If what you are now saying is progressives should go out and start their own opposition groups to the NRA, they already have, and they are numerous. But there is no monolithic gun control group since gun control--unlike the pro-gun position-does not have an industry funding it.

And as usual, you can't make your point without being abusive. I'm "obtuse"? Really? Sorry for giving your words their English meaning.

[hack89]

149. So it is impossible to be a pro-gun Democrat?

you really believe that?

So why can't those progressive gun control groups band together in common cause? Why can't they raise money? The Dems showed last year that there are billions to be had for Democratic candidates and causes. Why are they on the outside looking in? We are only talking tens of millions - it is not like the NRA is getting this massive funding that is completely beyond imagination.

I think the answer is that people are not passionate about gun control. It is important but not a top priority when compared to all the other issues. That is why everything is slowly fizzling out - there is no loud voice pushing Congress.

[SunSeeker]

150. No, just like it is not impossible to be an anti-abortion Democrat.

But it is not a progressive position. And no progressive raises Soros like you did.

Of course progressives are not going to have the same "passion" for gun control, just like they are not going to have the same "passion" for abortion availability. It is something we need in a civilized society and people who realize that aren't going to scream about it, but that does not mean they will not continue to work with determination. Most people's priority is the economy. Gun nuts and religious zealots will always out shout the rational voices. Folks like you will stay online all day and night looking for gun control posts to crap on. And when you can't find any, you go back to crap on ones they've already crapped on. Me, I have a life. It is a lovely afternoon here in So. Cal., and I am going out to enjoy it. Buh bye.

[hack89]

151. I am reassured with people like you on the pro-gun control team. nt

[Crepuscular]

46. Another example

of the all too frequent tragic consequences of untreated mental illness.

A sad irony that had Chapman used a gun in his failed suicide attempt, Lennon would most likely still be alive today.

[OverBurn]

57. It's a shame he's not with us anymore, I bet he would still be a great advocate of human rights.

[Iggo]

58. But they're irrelevant...

...somehow.

[LanternWaste]

60. Let's put a positive spin on this...

Let's put a positive spin on this...

It's merely one million and fifty seven thousand small prices we've paid to maintain a glorious and sacred cow.

[ErikJ]

63. Arguments against gun control

[AnotherMcIntosh]

65. Who made up that number?

[pediatricmedic]

66. Nobody made up the number, it is trackable

There is an average of about 30000 gun related deaths each year in the US. About two thirds of the number is suicides with homicides being the next big chunk at about one third.

600,000+ suicides and 300,000+ murders is a really sad statement on our society.

The suicides alone are equivalent to the losses of about 12 Vietnam wars or about 120 Iraq/Afghanistan wars.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

67. So instead of actually being trackable, it's based upon guesstimates. Got it.

[SunSeeker]

68. What number do you contend it is?

If you even care.....

[AnotherMcIntosh]

73. If I care? I care about a fact-based world. It is not in our best interest to rely upon made-up

numbers.

It's a propaganda tool to indicate mathematical certainty and authority where there is none.

[SunSeeker]

74. I knew you wouldn't answer my question. If you cared about the fact-based world,

you wouldn't own a gun.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

77. At what makes you think that I own a gun?

[SunSeeker]

79. Your answers and defensiveness. Do you? nt

[AnotherMcIntosh]

80. A tragedy occurred while I was sailing on Lake Michigan. A gust came up, rocked the boat, and all

mine fell over the side.

[SunSeeker]

82. It is too bad that "tragedy" didn't really happen; it could have saved you from a real tragedy. nt

[Paladin]

96. That Sort Of Chicken-Shit "Cuteness" Got Old, Years Ago.

If you're prepared to break the law to protect your precious guns, either admit it or stay silent.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

98. You do what you want. I do what I want. You don't get to tell anyone to "admit it or stay silent."

You don't like it. Too bad.

[pediatricmedic]

83. Try the FBI Crime Statistics/UCR or the Department of Justice, or CDC

I really don't want to go through the reports, but here are some totals from some of the years. Information is gathered primarily by the FBI. The information is out there if you want to find it.

2011: 32,1635
2010: 31,6726
2009: 31,347
2008: 31,593
2007: 31,224
2006: 30,896
2005: 30,694
2004: 29,569
2003: 30,136
2002: 30,242
2001: 29,573
2000: 28,663
1999: 28,874

[AnotherMcIntosh]

84. So that adds up to over "1,057,000 people"? People who exaggerate lose credibility.

[SunSeeker]

86. No, try reading the post. Those numbers are just for 1999 to 2011, and they add up to 396,646.

Which is in line with what one would expect. The 1,057,000 figure is for the much larger (33 versus 13 years) period from 1980 to now. People who throw out baseless barbs lose credibility.

[LAGC]

72. Do you really think that even if we could somehow make all guns go away

that people still wouldn't find other ways to commit suicide and kill each other?

Our society's high rate of violence has far more to do with culture than it does the particular tool so many use to end it all.

If people have the will, they will always find a way...

[SunSeeker]

76. Bullshit. Having a gun in the home increases your chance of suicide 5 times.

Last edited Fri Mar 22, 2013, 01:52 AM - Edit history (1)

Having a gun around makes otherwise treatable depression far more fatal.

I am a firm believer in people being able to end their life if there is no hope (terminally ill cancer patients in horrible pain, etc.), but it seems the vast majority of suicides are the tragic result of untreated mental illness or depression. Committing suicide due to mental illness or depression is not a choice--it is the mental illness consuming you. Having a gun in the house makes suicide over 5 times more likely.

http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/more-guns-more-suicides/

And as noted in another DU post, at one point the Israeli Defense Forces changed policy, so that soldiers leave their guns on base rather than bringing them home with them over the weekend. After the change, suicide rates dropped by 40%, mostly attributed to a drop in gun suicides on weekends. In particular, there was no significant change in suicide rates during the week, so it's not the case that the timing of the policy coincided with some other change which made soldiers less suicidal overall. It was a clear case of means reduction.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117295436 (citing http://gsoa.feinheit.ch/media/medialibrary/2010/12/Lubin_10.pdf )

You're 43 times more likely to be killed by your own gun (as Adam Lanza's mother was) than by an intruder's. You are unlikely to have an intruder. But you are very likely to get drunk, get depressed, get in a fight with someone in your house, or have your little kid find your gun. That's how people get killed. Having a gun in the house makes it far more likely that you or your loved one will get their head blown off.

Arthur Kellermann and Donald Reay. "Protection or Peril? An Analysis of Firearm Related Deaths in the Home." (The New England Journal of Medicine, vol. 314, no. 24, June 1986, pp. 1557-60.)

[LAGC]

87. So we need to disarm nearly 100 million law-abiding American gun owners because a statistical few...

...abuse them to commit suicide with?

How do you propose we do that?

I mean, look at this whole latest fracas: a whole lot of chest-thumping over a proposed Assault-Weapon Ban, and not only did we not get the ban, but a ton of people ran out and bought more guns!

If the goal is to reduce the amount of guns in circulation, we're going about it in the totally wrong way.

What we need is more education, not more laws. More awareness of folks suffering from depression and getting them the help they need.

But threatening to take away every swinging dick's recreation rifles just isn't going to fly.

[SunSeeker]

88. We don't need to take everyone's gun, we just need reasonable gun control.

Australia did it. Canada did it. Britain did it. We can do it too. I agree we need more education. People need to understand that guns don't make them safer; that it is just the opposite. Maybe then less people will choose to purchase guns and there will be less suicides...and domestic violence shootings. We were able to dramatically reduce smoking with anti-tobacco ads. And yes, getting mentally ill people helped is a huge need, but for now, Republicans refuse to pay for it. But 2014 is coming.

There was no "chest thumping" on the left over the AWB. The only people chest thumping are the gun nuts. Folks like a gungeoneer on this board who brayed about what a "spectacular failure" the AWB was, even though it has yet to be voted on. Reid did promise to let it get a vote as an amendment (which is how it was enacted in 1994--as an amendment). Hell, 6 months ago, no one would have imagined that anyone would have proposed an AWB, let alone get one voted on.

Gun nuts have been running out and buying guns in droves since Obama got elected. That is no reason to just give up. Sandy Hook has changed the country. I don't think there is any turning back.

[LanternWaste]

118. What specifically leads you to believe that the number was made up

What specifically leads you to believe that the number was made up rather than arrived at via the mechanics of simple statistics?

[fredzachmane]

89. In a country with 300,000,000 guns and 80,000,000 gun owners

1,057,000 in 32 years is not a lot.

[tblue]

90. It's a lot to me.

But then I think 1 is too many. Like that toddler who was shot today. Too many.

[LAGC]

92. There may be more to that toddler story.

Something doesn't add up there...

See: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022550223#post3

[Robb]

94. What, he's not dead from a gunshot wound?

[LAGC]

95. Follow the link.

If its true the mother is involved, I have a feeling that toddler would be just as dead even if she didn't have access to a gun.

[Robb]

97. You've made your feelings on child shootings quite clear.

Shall we review?

[LAGC]

99. It's tragic whenever a child dies.

Doesn't matter if its via gunshot, drowning, suffocation from fire/smoke, vehicular manslaughter, or any other cause.

Why does the cause of death matter so much to you?

[Robb]

100. LAGC on the Sunday Child Shooting Review: "Keep this crap out of GD."

Perhaps you'd like to explain yourself further.

[LAGC]

101. As I explained to you via PM:

I didn't realize gun threads were still being allowed in GD. Apparently they still are. My mistake.

I spend most of my time in GD, not the Gungeon, so I just assumed I wasn't the only one who was tired of seeing the same crap hashed out over and over again when we have a special forum for it. (Well, 2 forums now, thanks to you.)

While I don't understand your apparent obsession with news articles involving dead children, I guess if we have to still hash it out in GD, I'll oblige...

[Robb]

102. Your post is revolting.

The "glib psychopath" paradigm, with a little Libertarian rationalization and projection thrown in.

Absolutely disgusting.

[LAGC]

103. Alert on it.

And put me on ignore if you want.

If you prefer I don't post in any your threads, I'll gladly oblige.

Like I said, I have no intention of entertaining you in your little sheltered echo chamber either, so you can block me there too if it makes you feel any better.

[Robb]

104. No, please keep it up.

Nice to hear from a Democrat who doesn't care about child shootings. It's quite the curiosity.

...You do "vote for Democrats," right?

[LAGC]

131. I voted a straight Democratic ticket in 2012.

And guess how many of them were anti-gun here in Idaho? Not one. (At least not publicly, because it would have been political suicide.)

We were able to elect a decent centrist candidate for U.S. House Representative in Walt Minnick in the 1st Congressional District in 2008, but thanks to purity faction of the party, in 2010 many Idaho Democrats didn't vote for him the second time around, so now we have a teabagger in office instead.

Yes Walt was a Blue Dog, but I don't know about you, but I'd rather have someone representing me whom I agree with 75% of the time rather than someone I agree with maybe 5% of the time, if that.

That's the problem with politics today. So many want all-or-nothing, that way too often we end up getting nothing.

[Robb]

133. So this isn't yours:

(...i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu129/AMD_Fanboy/Photo09231757_zps12991121.jpg)


...And this isn't you:



You should talk to that LAGC guy, not only is he ruining your reputation, he's posting pictures from your private Photobucket account.

[LAGC]

135. You caught me there.

I admit, I couldn't bring myself to vote for Obama, not just because of the gun rights issue, but the ongoing never-ending wars and civil liberties issues as well. I knew Obama would win re-election though (just not Idaho) so it was more of a symbolic protest vote than anything else. I'm definitely glad Romney didn't win, and I think I helped convince at least a couple people on a couple different boards to NOT vote for Romney, so I did my part.

And I did vote for all Democrats in all local races, besides Sheriff, where there was no Democrat running.

Hopefully Brian Schweitzer (D) runs for president in 2016 so I can vote for him as well.

[Robb]

136. Cool story.

[LAGC]

137. It's the truth.

I'm not going to lie to you, I'm more of a left-libertarian than I am a stereotypical "progressive."

Social issues (civil liberties) are far more important to me than economic issues, but I still identify more with Krugman's economic agenda than I do any of the laissez-faire types on the right.

Even the worst Democratic candidate is far better than the best Republican.

If we could get rid of the GOP and replace them with the Libertarian Party, so that we didn't have to keep worrying about women's and LGBT rights being threatened and more bullshit bogus wars being waged each time the political pendulum swung the other way, the nation (and the world) would be a far better place.

[Robb]

138. I especially like where you say "I'm not going to lie to you."

[SunSeeker]

145. Robb, that was a hilarious subthread. Thanks.

The gungeoneers just won't let go of this OP for some reason, and they just keep digging themselves deeper and deeper...

[SunSeeker]

109. You tell people to put you on ignore so they can't sit on your jury.

That is the problem with putting people on ignore. Then we can't be on a jury regarding any of that person's posts. I imagine a lot of DUers have put the more prolific gungeoneers on ignore. Unfortunately, that means when their sick posts are alerted on, the jury pool has less sane people to draw from--and a higher proportion of fellow gungeoneers.

[onehandle]

106. Yeah. It was only 20 Kindergartners.

The body bag industry has plenty more in stock.

[kentuck]

105. It's not politically correct to point that out.

If we want to discuss political correctness.

[Gary 50]

107. Small price to pay...

Yes but a million plus deaths is a small price to pay so that tiny dicked assholes can feel like a man.

[Highway61]

108. How horrible

I remember that day like it was yesterday. How terribly sad that this happened to a man of peace. May he be making music with George somewhere "Across The Universe" as we speak.

Guns: Most despicable invention by man...EVER!

[Crepuscular]

119. So 1,057,000 killed with guns since 1980.......

and according to the linked story below, 547 of them were killed in what they define as "mass shootings" or shootings that involved more than 4 victims.

Works out to about 18 people a year. It would seem that the current angst about "assault weapons" and high capacity magazines is tremendously disproportionate to the actual threat posed by such weapons, particularly since the proposed AWB's do nothing to limit weapons that are functionally identical to those proscribed in the bill.


http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/547-dead-476-hurt-mass-shootings-since-1983-182605303--politics.html

[chocolatewatchband]

122. Question for you:

How many of those deaths were from handguns? Answer: The vast, vast majority. So please tell me why the focus is on ASSAULT WEAPONS? It makes no sense if you take it at face value. However, I NEVER take anything at face value.

[Bennyboy]

126. two Beatles, two attempted Murders, one gun, one knife, one

lived, one didn't. One lived in a a country that banned guns and the perpetrator used a knife to Murder George Harrison. George was not killed and lived for many years after the attack.

the other lived in a country that allowed handguns but found himself in a city/state that banned them, so he went to a state (georgia) that allowed guns, transported that gun to New York and killed John Lennon. Shot him 8 times I think.

[Crepuscular]

128. 8 times

with a .38 revolver. Good trick!

In actuality, Chapman fired 5 shots from very close range, Lennon was hit by 4 bullets.

The new magazine limit of 7 cartridges that was enacted in New York recently would have had no impact on what occurred.

Including mental health screening in a mandatory background check might have actually served as a deterrent, since Chapman had some pretty obvious mental problems and used a weapon that was legally acquired.

[Zax2me]

134. People. Killed by people using a gun.

The way this reads it is as if a gun floated in the air, pulled own trigger.

[ileus]

144. No no.....guns kill people, it sez so in the OP

[ileus]

143. All those murderous guns...

And people wonder why I carry.

[The Second Stone]

148. Over a million deaths from guns due to mental illness in many

cases. Many of these deaths could be prevented if our country took responsibility for mental health care of the public. Instead, we stigmatize mental illness and exclude mental health from benefit plans.