Drinking age poll

[Nye Bevan]

inspired by darkangel218's thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022533928

42 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
	Keep the drinking age at 21.
	11 (26%)
	Lower the drinking age to 18.
	25 (60%)
	Lower the drinking age to 19 or 20.
	0 (0%)
	Do something like allow beer and wine at 18 but no hard liquor until 21.
	2 (5%)
	Raise the drinking age to higher than 21.
	2 (5%)
	Something else, explained in the thread.
	2 (5%)
	1 DU member did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[Whisp]

1. either raise army enlistment age to 21

or lower the drinking age to 18.

It's wrong that an 18 year old kid can sign up for Iraq and not be able to legally have alcohol. Bizarre.

[bowens43]

3. why should this be tied to enlistment age?

that is completely ridiculous.

its also ridiculous to train teenagers to be killers and then send them off to fight for oil cartels....

[Whisp]

5. because now they are telling those people that enlist that they aren't old enough

to have a beer, but they are old enough to go to war and lose limbs and lives.

makes not sense.

war doesn't either, I'd rather have enlistment for war at age 75 only. if troops are needed, go draft and snap up some of those rich creeps kids too.

[whatchamacallit]

44. I agree

If you can go to kill or be killed, you're way beyond societal protection.

[Broken_Hero]

47. Took the words right outta my brain pan, fully agree nt

[Wounded Bear]

2. I consider this a local issue....

What works in urban NYC may not be right for outer Montana.

I don't support a national law on this one.

[KamaAina]

15. It used to be

the way the feds forced 21 on everyone was to threaten to withhold federal highway money from states that wouln't play nice.

Care to hazard a guess how old I was at the time?

[Wounded Bear]

18. I was 18 when they lowered it in Tennessee....

That was in 1971 IIRC. Do the math.....

The feds also forced the 55 mile speed limit, and dropped it after a while. The drinking age would probably follow the same path.

I'm a progressive, but I still think this is a local issue. Making it a national issue just gets the corporate interests more involved, which is never a good idea.

[NaturalHigh]

4. I hit the "none of the above" button.

I don't know the answer. Pluses and minuses for any option.

[Apophis]

6. If you're old enough to get drafted, you're old enough to drink.

[Sadiedog]

58. Exactly!

[Wounded Bear]

70. So, since we don't have a draft....

nobody can drink?

[Warren DeMontague]

7. I think once we have computers driving all the cars instead of people

lowering the drinking age will be fine.

[Nye Bevan]

8. The Economist magazine actually pointed out that driverless cars would be good for country pubs (nt)

[Warren DeMontague]

10. I've been saying that for years. Jesus, when I was still drinking, what I would have given for that.

I had a friend killed by a drunk driver, so I absolutely wouldn't get behind the wheel myself, but I spent a ton of money on cabs.

[pipi_k]

35. Perhaps...

I mean, I could be able to go along with that.

Because here's the thing...my friends' and families' rights to stay alive/not be injured or maimed by a drunk driver trumps the rights of the drunks' "right" to drink.

[Warren DeMontague]

37. you don't have to tell me. I had a friend killed by a drunk driver.

but drinking is one thing, drinking and driving is something else. the latter is never ok.

[pipi_k]

41. They are different...

but each one can cause pain.

Just like someone who drinks and then inflicts terror on his family.

My father lost his license for a long time for leaving the scene of an accident he had while DWI.

But the majority of his drinking happened around the house, where we kids (and my mom) had to deal with the fallout. He broke her jaw with a beer bottle. Threatened to knock us kids through the wall if we made one move to go with our mom when she tried to leave one day. Ripped down the Christmas tree and tore the phone from the wall. Tried to strangle my mother.

One day when I came in for supper from playing outside I accidentally tripped over the case of beer he had sitting by the back door. I'll never forget him calling me a "clumsy, long-legged bitch", and then having to choke down my supper while feeling like a worthless piece of shit.

All that isn't OK either.

Perhaps my view of alcohol is skewed just a bit because of my experiences. I would just as soon see it banned altogether, but we all know how Prohibition worked out...

[Warren DeMontague]

42. I have a lot of alcoholism in my family, too, so I hear you.

I'm personally convinced that there's something fundamentally physiological at play, at least with many forms of it-- carried by genetics... as such, there are some people who simply shouldn't touch the stuff. I'm one of them; last time I drank, Bill Clinton was president.

And there's no question that the drug is dangerous, causes volatility, and can turn lots of people- not just alcoholics- into stupid, mean and violent bastards.

(For me, growing up and then given the people I hung out with, like in college, the whole notion of "drinking socially" or "recreational drinking" was pretty skewed- my idea of "recreational drinking" was always to get plastered. Someone like my wife, who has a half glass of wine and is like "oooh, I'm tired" and stops there... that was really not on my radar.)

I'm generally anti-prohibition on a lot of things- starting with, because it doesn't work, as you mention... but I certainly think laws against or around alcohol make more sense from a public health and safety stdpt. than they do against, say, pot.

I'm sorry for your experiences. I can sympathize with them, and I know a lot of others can too.

[Bay Boy]

53. So is the liquor industry

subsidizing the research for computer controlled cars?

[Warren DeMontague]

59. Frankly, it seems like a no-brainer for a lot of reasons, starting with cell phones- and traffic.

Computer driven cars able to route themselves around traffic or otherwise modulate for jams will function a lot smoother than what we've got now. Plus then you wouldn't have the situation of the 2 hour traffic jam on the 405 because an attractive young woman is changing a tire on the side of a freeway in a halter top. (Yes. I have seen that phenomenon)

If we're going to force people to do these huge commutes, why not let them sit back and relax- or work- during the drive.

(And yes, for the record, I support high-speed rail, light rail and public transpo too)

[Bay Boy]

60. You will have to prove this...

...with pictures.
"Plus then you wouldn't have the situation of the 2 hour traffic jam on the 405 because an attractive young woman is changing a tire on the side of a freeway in a halter top. "

[Duer 157099]

73. That is complete and utter BS

I've driven the 405 countless times in my life.

ANYTHING on the side of the road is a cause for a traffic jam.

[Warren DeMontague]

74. For some reason that freeway was what popped into my head

"405" and "Traffic Jam" being synonymous.

It's entirely possible that the example I was thinking of took place on the 101 outside of Novato.

[Duer 157099]

75. The same thing happens on the 101 outside of Novato

I think it is every freeway in California. Can't speak about the rest of the country though.

[Warren DeMontague]

76. yeah, the Novato Narrows is pretty bad. Still, LA traffic is one of a kind.

Only place I've ever seen a traffic jam at 3 AM.

[Ian David]

9. I would keep it at 21 in public, or 18 at home under parental supervision. n/t

[kestrel91316]

77. When my sister and I were teens our parents let us each have a small glass of wine

with dinner when they did, which was basically only when we had spaghetti or lasagne, or holidays like Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Easter.

No mystique, no fascination with getting drunk - my parents were very modest drinkers. We learned to drink responsibly in a safe environment. I'd hate to think of today's neopuritans on DU having any say in that. There was absolutely nothing wrong with it.

[badtoworse]

11. It was 18 when I was 18 and I know the shit that I did.

Keep it 21.

[baldguy]

16. +1

[Nye Bevan]

19. And if the drinking age had been 21 when you were 18,

no drop of alcohol would have passed your lips until your 21st birthday?

Or would you have done pretty much the same shit, but illegally?

[badtoworse]

21. I'm going to take the 5th on this one

[jeff47]

46. It was 21 when I was 21, and I know I did the same shit.

Keeping it at 21 doesn't fix the problem you are trying to fix.

[badtoworse]

57. We should compare notes sometime

...over drinks, of course. To your point, I do think I had a little more maturity at 21 than 18, but not all that much. (My wife might argue that nothing has really changed in that department despite 40+ years of "growing up&quot

[Puzzledtraveller]

12. ban alcohol, promote gange

[onehandle]

13. It should be nationally paired with the lowest age at that you can legally fire a gun...

...in whatever state that is.

'Today I am a man.'

[Flashmann]

14. I'm of the mind

That if at 18,you can vote,be tried as an adult,be legally expected to ACT as an adult,with the attendant responsibilities,serve in the armed forces,risking life and limb,get married without parental consent,serve on a jury,you should damn well be able to buy a stinking beer...

[randome]

26. Plenty of things you can't do until 21.

You need to wait until 21 to do the following:
Apply to adopt a child.

Gamble.

Go on a cruise unsupervised.

Rent a car.

Hold an airline transport pilot's license for an airplane, helicopter.

Apply for a provisional license to drive a large passenger vehicle or heavy goods vehicle.

Supervise a learner driver (providing you have held a full license for the same type of vehicle for at least three years)

In some states, you cannot marry without parent(s)' permission until 21.

You also cannot be President at age 18.

[Flashmann]

28. You also cannot be President at age 18.

Or at 21.....

[randome]

29. Right. I meant that last to show something else that doesn't automatically accrue at 18.

All the items listed do not occur at 18 so one is NOT legally an adult in all matters.

And 35 is the minimum age to be President.

[JustAnotherGen]

17. I selected 18

But 19 works to for the northern states. When I was at Niagara U in the early 1990's we used to WALK across the border from NY and buy/bring back cases or buy and drink at a bar all the time. It's silly to have drinking at 21 on one side of the bridge and 19 on the other.

Oh - and I didn't ALWAYS go there. Anyone could chalk and id and even today the kids in the big three cities in NY (NYC, Buff, Roch) can and do get solid fake id's to drink.


I don't see what the big deal is with a kid taking a cab to a bar on a Saturday night and sharing a pitcher with friends.

[snooper2]

20. raise it to 37

[Coyotl]

71. I was thinking 24.

[Generation_Why]

22. I didn't get drunk until I was 22.

The age 21 requirement, being too socially awkward to party, and living in a dry county deprived me of doing what I always wanted to do.

[Johonny]

23. I've never seen drinking alcohol do anyone a lick of good

and seen many people in my life totally ruined by it. On the other hand I don't know many people that waited until 21 to drink no matter what the "legal" drinking age was.

[Comrade Grumpy]

50. That's a pretty one-sided view.

Millions of people enjoy alcohol responsibly every day.

[Bay Boy]

62. and it's been helping

ugly people get laid since the stone age.

[Johonny]

63. I see people drink all the time, I just ain't never seen it do them any good.

So yeah that view is pretty one sided. I didn't say people don't drink and responsibly (whatever that actually means) all the time. That's why I see no reason to fight over a "drinking" age that I full well know people pretty much ignore. You could argue higher drinking ages lead to more binge drinking, you can also argue higher drinking ages lower DUI deaths.

My post in no way tells people not to drink alcohol, but when my one friend that quit drinking asked me if I missed drinking. I responded to him "Not really, I never seen drinking alcohol do anyone a lick of good". If you want to drink I honestly don't care. If you ask me should you drink... I won't pretend to tell you drinking is bound to lead you to any positive improvement in your life. The statistics on alcohol are pretty narrow in terms of benefits and pretty high in terms of costs.

[TwilightGardener]

24. With the recent rape case, I'd say keep it at 21.

The less teens have access to alcohol, the better. Teen girls especially need to understand that drinking makes them vulnerable and unable to control a situation or protect themselves.

[HereSince1628]

25. Purchasing age should be at age of majority.

Age for beginning consumption is a matter to be worked out within the family. With accountability for bad outcomes falling onto the adult responsible for providing the beverage.

When I say accountability I mean ranging from child abuse/neglect all the way through depraved indifference

[randome]

27. Not everyone has a family.

And those who do don't always have responsible parents.

[HereSince1628]

30. That's all true.

Parents and guardians can certainly make mistakes.

But it doesn't really change my position. Parent's and guardians are already part of the problem. Making them accountable is key.

Also, I'm of the opinion that creating a broad mystic of alcohol in society and the tendency to endorse drunken bad behavior as components of 'rights of passage' is more dangerous.

[Zoeisright]

31. Oh for god's sake, not this stupid shit again.

Lowering the drinking age results in increased injuries and fatalities among teenagers. We've already done this shit and it was a complete disaster. A higher drinking age means at least 1,000 fewer DEAD teenagers every year in this country. READ this from the AMA and LEARN something.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/physician-resources/public-health/promoting-healthy-lifestyles/alcohol-other-drug-abuse/facts-about-youth-alcohol/minimum-legal-drinking-age.page

[CRK7376]

32. For all those

young men and women who serve our nation in the military that are between 18-21, they should be allowed to drink alcohol. When I enlisted the drinking age was still 18, but times changed and the age went up. I didn't drink then and seldom drink now, even after combat deployments, but that's my choice. My young Soldiers should be allowed to drink if they are willing to serve. My college age sons should also be allowed to drink whether the choose to serve in the military or not. I personally would not mind at all seeing stricter enforcement/prosecution of drunk driving etc regardless of the age of the individual.

[LadyHawkAZ]

33. 18 anywhere with a valid military ID

18 for at-home with adult supervision.

21 for purchase or bar access.

[jeff47]

48. 18 year olds are adults

Legally, they could supervise themselves.

[LadyHawkAZ]

64. HA! I knew what I meant...

but it didn't quite come across right, did it?

18 at home with someone of legal purchasing age (21 or over)- how's that?

[jeff47]

67. Yet my point still stands

They're legally adults. The law says they are 100% responsible for their actions.

So why do they need a "more adult" to supervise? They're either adults, or they're kids. Either they can do the things any adult can do, or we need to extend childhood by another 3 years.

[LadyHawkAZ]

72. Yes, your point stands

I recognize that it's legally unworkable, it's just what my personal preference would be. You could call it the result of too many years working with alcohol coupled with seeing too many teenagers hit age 18 with minimal life coping skills.

[Logical]

66. Why for military only? Better than a 18 year old coal miner? n-t

[Nye Bevan]

34. One idea I had is as follows.

How about allowing 18-20 year olds to buy alcohol, only if they have completed some kind of alcohol safety education? Perhaps a total of 12 hours or so of classroom instruction. This could entitle them to a special notation on their drivers license or a separate ID card. The classroom instruction would cover the dangers of binge drinking and alcohol intoxication and so on.

[winter is coming]

36. That's an interesting idea.

[pipi_k]

39. I like your idea and...

would gladly volunteer to help educate young people.

Of course, many people might not like parts of my message, which would involve being graphically honest about what alcohol can do to someone.

At least half my family died, either directly, or indirectly, from alcohol, but the two worst cases were these:

My daughter's husband eventually developed ascites

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascites

and had to have his abdominal cavity drained at least 4 times. His abdomen got so huge that his navel stuck out, as large as a baseball. One day it burst, spewing blood all over his kitchen. It was removed, and he had nothing but a big scar there the rest of his life (which turned out to be less than two years after that). He died in 2005.

My brother, who died at the age of 40, two years ago. He was in and out of the hospital at least ten times in 18 months. His organs failed one by one. He started bleeding from various orifices. He was not a long-time alcoholic. In fact, he only smoked pot, but the company he worked for started testing employees for pot, so he switched to alcohol. Because it's legal, you know. I don't know of anyone who has died from pot smoking, but half my family has died from (legal!!!) alcohol.

I would probably also show these kids the photos of my daughter's car after she and a past boyfriend were hit head-on by a drunk driver in 1995, nearly killing them both.

Yes. Education. Definitely.

[Douglas Carpenter]

38. other - increase it to 55

in fact that should apply just about everything. Other than violent assaults - once a person turns 55 they should be allowed to do anything they want. Prior to that there should be a series of strictly enforced rules on just about everything.

[Nye Bevan]

40. kick

[Taverner]

43. Lower the drinking age to 18, RAISE the driving age to 21

[retread]

45. If there was a way to keep drunks of any age from harming others, 18 would be ok. Since

there isn't, 98 or older.

[Le Taz Hot]

49. I don't know about anyone else

buy the group of kids I hung out with started drinking at about 13. By 18 we had it down. The point being that 18-year-olds are going to find a way to drink. Why screw up their record with a stupid bust (underage drinking)?

[HockeyMom]

51. Drinking age was 18 and the voting age was 21 when I was that age

I lived in Manhattan. I know they wanted to raise the drinking age to 21 because of drunk driving. WHO drives in MANHATTAN???? I either WALKED home, or took a taxi. I think both drinking and voting age should be 18 years old. Because of when my birthday fell in late November, I could not vote until I was 22. I was furious over that one.

[liberal_at_heart]

52. well when they lower the drinking age I'll be sure to get a bus pass

I sure won't want to be on the roads if they lower the drinking age.

[Nye Bevan]

56. Get one anyway. More environmentally friendly (nt)

[liberal_at_heart]

61. I actually enjoy riding the bus when I can but I have two disabled people in the family

so I do a lot of driving. My husband does take the bus a lot but I still drive him to a lot of places as well. My son is 14 and autistic so it will be some time before he is ready to learn how to use the bus system. I've been driving people places for a long time. I definitely love the relaxation that comes from riding the bus.

[Warpy]

54. Lower the drinking age. Raise the driving age.

Kids need to know what alcohol does to them before they get behind the wheel of a car, not after.

A few drunken wipeouts on a bicycle are survivable and won't take people with them and are enough to convince them that no matter how they feel, alochol isn't turning them into Superman.

[pipi_k]

69. I'm such a spoilsport...

While it's true that some drunken bicycle mishaps are survivable, it's also true that they can be deadly as well.

A drunken kid on a bike cuts out in front of traffic, killing only himself.

Or...a drunken kid on a bike cuts out in front of traffic, causing a car to swerve to avoid hitting him, sending the occupants of that car into a tree or head on into the other lane.

Just about anything done under the influence is never a good idea.

[Warpy]

79. More will survive on bikes.

It's how they do it in Europe and it seems to be working for them.

Hell, just walking while plastered is dangerous. So is just sitting there. I've taken care of a lot of skull fracture patients who fell off bar stools.

It's still safer than letting them drive and then introducing them to alcohol.

[timdog44]

55. I voted to raise even higher.

I don't think that mentally, a person who is 18 is able to handle the consequences of alcohol. Actually there are a lot of people at age 30 who can't. But people at age 18-25 still are not totally developed and matured enough to be drinking alcohol. And I would tie it military age if you want to, because I don't think young people have the capability to rationally choose to go to the service until an older age for the same reason. People are to quick to put young people in places of responsibility that they are not able to deal with. Of course there always exceptions, but that would have to be dealt with in some other way which I don't know how to do.

[etherealtruth]

65. I am not a fan of alcohol

However, if we (as a society) hold folk under 21 accountable as adults (and we do) ... the choice to drink should be theirs.

[Recursion]

68. This sounds like a good case for states to decide

This isn't like drugs or guns where there's a contraband material that can pass over state lines; this is about behavior, and we can see what works best.

[PRETZEL]

78. I'm not totally convinced this is a local issue or a national one

I remember when I was 18, we used to drive a half hour west and go to Ohio or a half hour south into West Virginia. At the time, both sates legal age was 18 with most of the bars just across the border were generally filled with Pennsylvanians Friday and Saturday nites. We had to drive so yeah we were being totally irresponsible.

Back then, if you were under 21 you could drink beer in those states, but it was basically watered down beer, the 3.2 beer. You couldn't drink wine or hard liquor, only beer.