I don't like porn. I think it damn well does degrade women

[cali]

At least a lot of it does. No, I'm not saying it should be illegal. I am saying I see a lot wrong with it and I do think it has deleterious effects on some who watch a lot of it.

In a world where women have long been sexually objectified, porn ups that massively. And as many have noted, there's increased pressure on women, particularly young women, to "pornify" themselves.

<snip>

The porn loop is de rigueur, no longer outside the pale; starlets in tabloids boast of learning to strip from professionals; the “cool girls” go with guys to the strip clubs, and even ask for lap dances; college girls are expected to tease guys at keg parties with lesbian kisses à la Britney and Madonna.

But does all this sexual imagery in the air mean that sex has been liberated—or is it the case that the relationship between the multi-billion-dollar porn industry, compulsiveness, and sexual appetite has become like the relationship between agribusiness, processed foods, supersize portions, and obesity? If your appetite is stimulated and fed by poor-quality material, it takes more junk to fill you up. People are not closer because of porn but further apart; people are not more turned on in their daily lives but less so.

<snip>

After all, pornography works in the most basic of ways on the brain: It is Pavlovian. An orgasm is one of the biggest reinforcers imaginable. If you associate orgasm with your wife, a kiss, a scent, a body, that is what, over time, will turn you on; if you open your focus to an endless stream of ever-more-transgressive images of cybersex slaves, that is what it will take to turn you on. The ubiquity of sexual images does not free eros but dilutes it.

<snip>

http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9437/index1.html

I know that people argue on both sides of the issue, but I find the argument that the "pornification" of... well, just about everything in our culture, more compelling than the arguments that it's not a problem at all, or that it's a good thing. I don't think it's a good thing any more than I think processed food is good for you. In fact, I think the comparison between porn and big mac "cuisine" is a damned good one.

So slam me as a prude or whatever, though I have no problem with people being in control of their own sex lives. I don't think banning "big gulps" is the answer to the fast food addiction that so many have and I don't think banning or regulating porn, no matter how vile or degrading it is, is the answer to the pornification of our culture.

I don't have any answers.

[Soliveindenialthen]

1. Millions of people in America and all over the world enjoy porn

Besides who are YOU to determine what is right or wrong for others or what consenting adults can or cannot do whether it is watching porn or making porn, it is really not your business at all.

If you do not like porn, don’t watch it.

[cali]

4. I don't watch it, but that doesn't mean I haven't and it doesn't mean that I

can't have an opinion on it and express that opinion here. Don't like that? Tough fucking shit, sweetheart.

[arely staircase]

258. interesting company one keeps when they go down the old anti-free speech road

[Richardo]

7. You're late for your Reading Comprehension class.

[annabanana]

20. The OP is not suggesting a ban.

Your post is not conducive to rational discussion, but is rather a match on an imaginary pool of gasoline.

[Lochloosa]

36. Wow, 4 post and you slam one of the most respected members of DU. Enjoy your stay.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

40. x2

[MindMover]

280. probably a porn star ....

[cactusfractal]

43. Eight words into the post...

The OP says they don't think porn should be illegal. Your reply is irrelevant.

[abelenkpe]

175. I think you meant:

"Waaauuuuugh. I like porn and your post insulted what I like. Waaaauuuuugh."

[whathehell]

237. Yeah, you could say the same about Reality shows and Fox News

and no one is "determining" what others can do...That being

said, we have as much right to express our opinion on what we think

is healthy or not healthy for women and the society in general.

[Skittles]

297. you COMPLETELY miss the point

[lbrtbell]

301. Way to miss the point--deliberately

Porn harms all women, even those involved in it, because it perpetuates the patriarchal notion that women are sex objects and nothing more.

Porn harms girls, because they feel pressured to conform to porn standards. (Shaving public hair to make themselves look like plastic Barbie dolls is one result.)

Porn harms boys and men, through addiction and/or giving them unrealistic sexual expectations. I spend time on 4chan's notorious /b/, and even its denizens freely admit that porn has interfered with their ability to enjoy sex with a woman, compared to masturbating to porn. And if you want to see a bunch of young guys freak out, just post a picture of a woman with a normal amount of pubic hair.

I get so sick of people pretending that porn has anything to do with free speech. Just as screaming "Fire!" in a theater is harmful (and not free speech), so is porn.

The only people imposing on freedom of speech are those of you who call people prudes for preferring healthy, loving sexual expression over gutter debauchery.

People who enjoy porn are just like smokers--willfully ignorant of the harm they do to other people, and whining about suggestions that they stop harming themselves and others.

When boys and men view porn with "fantasy scenes" of rape, degradation of women, men ejaculating into women's mouths, women engaging in fellatio with horses, how are these people supposed to view women as anything but sex objects who "ask for it"?

Porn is one of the pillars of the rape culture, because it continually reinforces the message that women should be forced into sex, degraded, and treated like trash.

If you think all that is harmless, and falls under "freedom of speech", it says a lot more about you than the "prudes" you mock.

Sex is about love and respect, and I'm tired of porn apologists infringing on OUR freedom of speech.

Allow me to replace a few words in your rude statement, as an accurate comparison to show you how insensitive it is:

If you do not like guns, don't buy one.

Well, that solves the gun problem, just as your comment solves the porn problem!

[LittleBlue]

2. Don't look for answers to porn, there aren't any

I will now tell you why there is no "answer": because porn creates no questions. Bluntly, it is a performance with the goal of arousing men and women to orgasm, whether alone or with a partner. It does not create any questions because it is what it is, and no one mistakes it for anything other than that. It cannot be outlawed for various reasons: the porn industry would move to another country, and the Supreme Court would strike any porn ban as unconstitutional. What you see as "vile" or "degrading" is simply what viewers demand, and receive as a result. The huge variety in pornography and the ease of distribution dictates that the porn industry must cater to the tastes of viewers or become extinct to those who will.

Whether it's a good thing, a bad thing, or whatever, it doesn't really matter. Those who like porn will watch it, those who don't hopefully will not, those who make porn will cater to the tastes of the viewer. Judging by its huge popularity among men and women, it seems to be achieving its purpose.


btw

The porn loop is de rigueur, no longer outside the pale; starlets in tabloids boast of learning to strip from professionals; the “cool girls” go with guys to the strip clubs, and even ask for lap dances; college girls are expected to tease guys at keg parties with lesbian kisses à la Britney and Madonna.

I don't really see these as bad things. Younger people are allowed to explore more traditionally disapproved of sexual settings and practices. You have a choice: participate or don't. If you feel pressured, that is probably because men like looking at naked women doing sexual things, and that will never change. The alternative is attempted in the Mid East: men wear huge beards and women wear burqas, so that neither will be particularly attracted to the other based on looks. I'd rather we stick with what we've got.

[thucythucy]

123. "Whether it's a good thing or a bad thing

it really doesn't matter. Those who like porn will watch it, those who don't hopefully will not..."

Out of curiousity, do you come to the same conclusion about an attempted progressive critique of any other media or social discourse?

As in: "Whether homophobic, racist, sexist rants by ministers are a good thing or a bad thing really doesn't matter. Those who enjoy homophobic, sexist, racist rants will attend that church, those who don't won't..."

"Whether the History Channel runs a series portraying the devil as a black man who looks amazingly like our President, and Jesus as white, doesn't matter. Those who enjoy that sort of program will watch it, those who don't..."

Somehow I doubt it. Critiques of public media and/or discourse (and I would categorize porn as public media, since it's freely available to pretty much anyone who wants it) are a staple here at DU, and people rarely, if ever, post in reply that such critiques are pointless to raise.

Edited to add: actually, I just ran across a bunch of posts saying, essentially, "So what if the devil is portrayed as looking like Obama (and some dispute this) or is obviously black while Jesus of course is white. What does it matter?" Sigh.

And so of course the proliferation of porn, and the incorporation of soft porn themes into mainstream advertising, raises questions, just as the widespread dissemination of any media product raises questions. Progressives routinely critique advertising copy, political ads and discourse, media -- even fictional -- portrayals of social realities, looking for their intent and their potential impact. Why should porn be any different? Because it has to do with sex?

The alternative is not how "in the Mid East: mean wear huge beards and women wear burqas...."

The alternative to unthinking acceptance of any social or media reality is to begin a thoughtful discourse, which is precisely what this OP is doing.

I don't think it's ever a bad thing for progressives to ask questions. And I think it's very rarely a good thing, no matter what the topic, to assume that there are no questions worth asking.

[LittleBlue]

145. Because it's pretentious nonsense

It isn't about subtle racism, homophobia, or anything else that would not be recognized. This is neo puritanism dressed up in the clothes of social concern. "Raising questions" is an unsubtle euphemism for "what should we do about it?"

"Unthinking acceptance" = lol. If they didn't accept it, would anything change? Do you suppose that they don't know when a person is tied up and whipped that it isn't about degradation? Of course it is. But they don't care because it achieves its purpose: to get them off.

Out of curiousity, do you come to the same conclusion about an attempted progressive critique of any other media or social discourse?

This isn't media or social discourse. It's porn. Its purpose isn't to inform millions of voters, it has only one and it does it well.

But please, if you wish, do continue the massive failure of the modern anti-porn movement. The movement died stumbling right out of the gates. It looks to be doing exactly the opposite of its intended purpose, as people recognize (correctly) that it is a nanny mentality attempting to influence their behavior to be in line with what others deem "acceptable".

[thucythucy]

216. You precisely illustrate my point.

Which is that there are many progressives willing to discuss in political terms the content of most anything and everything, but as soon as anyone broaches the subject of porn's possible political or social inplications, these same progressives will immediately brand those asking the questions as "prudes" "nanny staters" etc.

The object of TV commercials and magazine ads selling dishwashing liquid or "feminine hygiene" wasn't to "inform voters" either. But in the 60s and 70s feminists deconstructed the images and messages of those ads for their overt sexism. But hey, why bother? If the intent of a particular aspect of media isn't "to inform" voters, then progressives should do nothing to question, evaluate, or challenge the messages contained. And "Birth of Nation" had nothing to do with fostering racism. Got it.

"This isn't media or social discourse. It's porn. Its purpose isn't to inform millions of voters, it has only one and it does it well...." It is most certainly media, and it certainly is a part of social discourse, whether you choose to acknowlege it or not.

Personally, I could care less what people do sexually, as long as it involves consenting adults. But as a progressive interested in gender justice I'm at least somewhat interested in evaluating the content and impact of messages produced by a multi-billion dollar industry generating millions of images and millions of hours of video every year, consumed by tens if not hundreds of millions of people, not the least of whom are young men who may or may not use porn to construct their own versions of sexuality.

That these images are linked to sex makes them all the more powerful, and important to discuss.

But hey, if you prefer not to, no one is forcing you, right? Certainly, if websites that, for instance, portray Asian women as sluts dying to be raped by white men have no impact whatsoever on fostering racism and sexism against Asian women, and websites that depict in glorious detail the gang rape of drunk teenagers could have had no possible impact on the thinking of the Steubenville rapists, then a single thread on whether or not images in porn have any political or social effect whatsoever can't possibly be of concern to you.

Just go on your way, and leave the rest of us poor peasants to our silliness.

[lbrtbell]

302. You're missing important points here

It does not create any questions because it is what it is, and no one mistakes it for anything other than that.

Young people today "mistake" it for what sex is actually about. Girls who don't want to give blowjobs or do anal sex are pressured into it, because they're told that this is "normal"...by the boys watching porn. By people defending porn. Being pressured into doing disgusting things you don't want to is unhealthy for the psyche. It IS vile and degrading. The porn viewers themselves are the first to tell you, that they enjoy watching women being "degraded" in porn. Saying otherwise is ignoring reality.

You see nothing wrong with things like "college girls are expected to tease guys at keg parties with lesbian kisses"? Expected by whom? By the guys who like lesbian porn. Again, young women are being expected to cater to the porn-fueled whims of young men. Why don't men have to cater to women's sexual fantasies? Oh, that's right--because women are either sex slaves or humorless prudes. Nothing wrong with that at all. (Do I even need the sarcasm tag?) Who cares about a woman's heart or mind, she's just there to turn guys on! And it's pretty damned insulting to me, as a lesbian, that men act as if lesbian sex is a masturbatory tool for THEM, rather than an act of love between US.

Younger people are allowed to explore more traditionally disapproved of sexual settings and practices. You have a choice: participate or don't.

What a simplistic worldview. They aren't being allowed, they're being pressured. And their choice is different from what you believe, as well. It's "participate and subjugate yourselves to men like a good little concubine" or "don't participate, and be called a prude, a whore, or a bitch who friendzones guys."

If you feel pressured, that is probably because men like looking at naked women doing sexual things, and that will never change.

No, one feels pressured because of what I explained, above. And where's all the porn of men catering to women's sexual fantasies? You think women don't want that? Got any figures on how much of that kind of porn is around, compared to the porn of women subjugating themselves to men?

I'll give you a hint--the romance novel industry makes a killing catering to women's fantasies, because the porn industry is overwhelmingly catering to men's fantasies. And I can guarantee you that the majority of women's erotica isn't as demeaning toward men, as porn is toward women.

You call the Middle East an "alternative" to the question of porn, but it's actually the other side of the "women as sex objects" coin. In porn, women are actively promoted as sex objects. In those countries, women are assumed to be sex objects, and therefore must be covered head to toe.

The REAL alternative: Erotic films in which there's a level of respect between the man and woman. Nobody's saying erotica should be eliminated, just that it's wrong to degrade women in the process.

You keep talking as if the OP suggested banning porn. As for answers, I have one: Start educating young people in sex ed, telling them that porn is not--and should not be--reality. That you should never do something that makes you feel degraded. That sexual partners should respect and not pressure each other.

Because that lack of respect is why date rape occurs.

[LittleBlue]

310. You have no right to tell them what they can do or expect in bed

Young people today "mistake" it for what sex is actually about. Girls who don't want to give blowjobs or do anal sex are pressured into it, because they're told that this is "normal"...by the boys watching porn. By people defending porn. Being pressured into doing disgusting things you don't want to is unhealthy for the psyche. It IS vile and degrading.

I'm sorry, but if they see oral sex as something they want, who are you to tell them what they can and can't do? Whether it's degrading is a choice they make, not you.

Whichever girls do not want to give blowjobs or perform anal sex DO NOT HAVE TO DO THIS. If they feel pressured, that's one of many pressures they will experience in life, and like with all other social pressures, they get a choice.

[Warren DeMontague]

311. Yes. Back in the sepia-toned days of yore, when I was a lad, there was no oral sex!

Well, actually, there was. A lot of it.

And the Nancy Reagan crowd was saying the exact same shit you hear in this thread, back then.

[Fumesucker]

3. America, simultaneously prudish and libertine

Hypocrisy is rapidly becoming our most significant national characteristic.

[marions ghost]

54. Good point

because naughty & bad increases the demand. Otherwise it would just be

Whatever anyone needs to stimulate the lower chakras, go for it. But if it becomes an addiction...well everybody knows when they've got an addiction. No lecture on that.

Whenever something becomes as huge an industry as this with such pervasive societal effects, we should analyze it.

I agree with the OP that some porn, not all, objectifies and demeans women. Duh. I mean, who doesn't agree with that? And maybe it is that element of ugly creepy porn that feeds rape culture. Its not much of a jump to see how the Steubenville Rape Crew could thrive on a steady diet of the worst porn. License to rape in the young & stupid.

Can't make any distinctions about it if all porn is sacred and we can't define any of it as damaging to women (and men, too, it can be argued when the rot seeps out in behavior).

Banning it, no. Calling some of it nasty & misogynist--oh yeah. And why is there a big appetite for that kind of porn?

[chervilant]

84. What about child pornography?

At what point in the pornography continuum do we place our marker and say "anything to the left is okay, everything to the right not so much"?

I've long observed that our species is in its adolescence -- fascinated by sex, drugs, and rock''roll. We are hedonists on the whole, and quite the hypocrites -- as others have already noted.

[marions ghost]

98. Child pornography is illegal in every state

--society says it is not OK. But ugly creepy pornography that is clearly degrading to women is OK just about everywhere. Very much alive and well. Despite the fact that we all have daughters who have a pretty good chance of being raped in their lifetimes (not to mention victims of other forms of violence).

I agree that we are not very evolved as a species, for many reasons. This is just one symptom.

[Mojorabbit]

266. +1000 nt

[marions ghost]

284. rec'd

thanks

[Threedifferentones]

300. Rapidly becoming?

We're a nation whose highest stated value is liberty and whose most powerful and influential founders owned other people as property. THat seems to me about as powerful as hypocrisy gets, and the centuries between then and now have been full of other examples.

[Upton]

5. How about we let consenting adults decide for themselves?

Some woman or man wants to go into or indulge in the sex industry, that's their business.. not yours.

[Richardo]

8. Nothing in the OP proscribes porn from anyone.

Just offered an opinion as to its perceived effects, that's all.

[Squinch]

9. I believe her second sentence made it clear that she has no desire to see it outlawed.

By the same token as your argument, some woman or man here wanted to voice an opinion on certain aspects of the sex industry. That's his or her business.

[chimpymustgo]

11. This is degradation of culture - not just women. It affects relationships of our sons and daughters

-edit-

"...is it the case that the relationship between the multi-billion-dollar porn industry, compulsiveness, and sexual appetite has become like the relationship between agribusiness, processed foods, supersize portions, and obesity? If your appetite is stimulated and fed by poor-quality material, it takes more junk to fill you up. People are not closer because of porn but further apart; people are not more turned on in their daily lives but less so"

-edit-

I think important questions are being raised about how porn is affecting our brains, our hearts - our expectations of the opposite sex. It's much more than a matter of individual taste - but what the culture is being fed.

[KoKo]

72. "Soft Porn" that's now mainstream in Advertisements, Web Ads...

(remember the "Asian Girls" ad here on DU?) plus the use of Celebrities to fixate on body types, weight, boobs or lack of, baby bumps, affairs with multiple partners hype, voyeurism of celebrities for their use as sexual objects to get eyeballs for ads online to support websites. Huffington Post is the best example I've found for "Soft Porn /Celebrity Porn Salaciousness." Arianna and AOL want to bring in the eyeballs but should news readers have to be inundated with "sex sells, celebrity misfortune in sexual relationships sells"...

I think Calli was calling attention to Soft Porn that's out there everywhere meant to sell products and not what one does in the privacy of home if you want to watch porn movies or web porn is not the issue. It's the Commercialization of Soft Porn all over the net and in mainstream places that was what she was trying to point out.

[Iris]

287. Good point.

And now that adolescents have easy access to porn, how does that affect their individual taste. Do they even know what it is given they aren't developing it based on personal experience and observation but based on what's being created by an industry?

I think the comparison between porn and fast food is dead on.

[Upton]

68. Yes..

advocating the right for people to decide for themselves, whether it be porn or whatever, is so always so "lame"..

Oh, I see you're looking for "answers" to your perceived problem of porn..I've got one for you, don't watch it.

[thucythucy]

140. So if some minister in a mega-church

preaches some racist, sexist, homophobic garbage, and a DUer posts something saying, "We should pay attention to this because it could be ultimately harmful to people of color, women, or GLBTs," your response would be: "If you don't like this sermons, don't go to his church?"

"It's up to consenting adults to decide what sermons they want to listen to."

Or how about an OP denouncing Rush Limbaugh for making sexist remarks about Sarah Fluke?

"If you don't like that Rush Limbaugh says, don't listen to his show. It's up to consenting adults to decide whether or not to listen to Rush."

Of course it is. But she's not saying porn should be outlawed, in fact she explicitly says otherwise, so your whole argument about consenting adults is a straw man.

She's simply saying it's worth at least asking questions about what impact the proliferation of porn, particularly porn with degrading, sexist depictions of women, might have on the social reality we all have to live with. And to question also the increasing use of soft porn imagery in mainstream advertising. She's offering a critique of content, much like DUers will critique ads, popular TV shows, magazine covers, political discourse, radio talk, or what have you.

What precisely is your problem with that?

[arely staircase]

245. rw preachers and rush limbaugh affect public policy through their preaching and radio shows

ron jeremy does not

[thucythucy]

263. Not all public life is related to public policy.

And media depictions affect attitudes and behaviors in ways that are more subtle than: "My minister told me to vote this way, so I will."

For instance, there is an entire genre of porn which showcases "drunk girls getting fucked." Just google the phrase and you'll see what I mean. The idea conveyed is that it's just such great fun for men to rape girls too unconscious to resist, and for other men to cheer them on. A sub-category of THAT genre is the "watch this drunk slut getting fucked by the football team" porn.

Is there a relationship between the proliferation of these videos, especially among young people, and Steubenville? Did any of the people who participated in, or witnessed what happened to that unconscious girl, who was dragged from house to house to be sexually assaulted, see such vids, and get at least some sense that what they were doing or seeing was no big deal? Is a culture where so many young people consume such images less likely to produce kids (and adults) willing to intervene when they see a rape actually happening?

Aren't such questions at least worth asking? Just as it's legitimate to ask whether right wing hate-sites might egg on right wing terrorism (without calling for such sites to be censored), isn't it legitimate to ask if porn based on rape and contempt for women might similarly egg on men already willing to commit sexual violence?

Getting back to public policy, educators in the 70s and onward helped teenagers to see through the bogus Marlboro Man ads that portrayed smoking as sexy, adult, and "normal." So maybe we might want to educate young people that the images they see in porn aren't real, and that accepting them as normative can be destructive to their relationships, sexual or not. That, for instance, despite there being a couple of thousand websites portraying it as "sexy" and "fun" (and without any consequence for either the victim or the rapists), it actually isn't right or normal or sexy to fuck somebody who is too unconscious to say "no."

But to do that, we have to at least develop some understanding that these images in porn exist, and are worth confronting. And before we do THAT, we have to be open to having an actual discussion, especially among progressive Democrats who are presumably interested in issues of gender justice and violence against women, about what if any role porn like this plays in fostering a culture in which so many people could see what was happening, and do nothing to stop it. A culture in which pundits on CNN evidently feel more sympathy for the poor football players convicted of rape, than they do for the girl who was raped.

All I'm asking for is that people be open to the discussion, without being immediately labeled a prude, a man-hater, anti-sex, pro-censorship, and all the other garbage that gets hurled at anyone attempting to raise these issues.

Is that really too much to ask?

[Warren DeMontague]

208. Here, I'll start: Freedumb! Dudebro! Mansplaining! "So-CALLED FREE SPEECH" UGH UGH UGH EYEROLL

.....LIBERTARIAN!!!!


I gotta get me one of those bingo card templates, myself.

[name not needed]

242. YOU DIDN'T MENTION THE CHILDREN

WHY AREN'T YOU THINKING OF THE CHILDREN?

[Warren DeMontague]

246. BINGO!

[fasttense]

18. And there in lies the problem, it is not between consenting adults.

Commercial are more and more sleazy. They sell sex with every car, dress or bra and to do it they have to use porn. Porn gets into most of our advertisement. Many of the commercials you see today would have been "censored" 50 years ago.

And if you think you have a choice on if you see advertisement or not you are wrong. Advertisement is designed so that you can't avoid it. Try fast forwarding through commercial with Xfinity or videos on line. You can't. You can mute it but the images still flash between your favorite shows. Try not looking at the billboards on the side of the road or the giant TV screens in major cities. Try NOT looking at all the billboards in the subway, taxis or busses. Try not looking at the headlines of the magazines at the check out stand. And to catch your attention advertisers have to be more and more outrageous as you get less aroused by the pictures you have already seen.

And then there is the sex and porn industry itself. Do you really believe that most of those women voluntarily go into the sex industry? And what about the sex slave trade? Why is it so prolific? Why is there so much child porn? Even in advertisement naked or partially clad children are used.

We like to believe that those women having sex are doing it of their own free will but are they really? Would they have chosen another career if they could have found good paying jobs? Are they doing it to support a drug addiction or for money to stay off the streets? If we had full employment and wages that kept up with productivity, clean safe homes for the homeless, or free medical care for addictions would the sex trade still be hopping? And why is organized crime so involved with the sex trade? If we didn't turn people into commodities would the porn industry be so robust?

I'm all for letting people do what they want but not if the are coerced and forced by society into degrading and humiliating objects of lust. Yes, a few people are in the porn and sex industry because they like it. But the majority of people in it are doing it simply for the money.

But the answer is NOT outlawing adult porn. To do that would be like prohibition - a total disaster. The ever expanding, lucrative porn and sex industry is just another symptom of a dysfunctional society. It is just another way that people demean and corrupt themselves for the money.

Ok go ahead, flame away.

[KoKo]

48. +1 and this quote from you:

"Commercial are more and more sleazy. They sell sex with every car, dress or bra and to do it they have to use porn. Porn gets into most of our advertisement. Many of the commercials you see today would have been "censored" 50 years ago.

And if you think you have a choice on if you see advertisement or not you are wrong. Advertisement is designed so that you can't avoid it. Try fast forwarding through commercial with Xfinity or videos on line. You can't. You can mute it but the images still flash between your favorite shows. Try not looking at the billboards on the side of the road or the giant TV screens in major cities. Try NOT looking at all the billboards in the subway, taxis or busses. Try not looking at the headlines of the magazines at the check out stand. And to catch your attention advertisers have to be more and more outrageous as you get less aroused by the pictures you have already seen. "

[hunter]

173. On any average day I hear and see very little advertising.

I don't watch television, listen to the radio, walk by magazine racks, and my computer is set up to kill all advertising images without mercy. I read our local newspaper which doesn't have any advertising remotely "pornish" and I usually drop advertising inserts in the recycling basket without looking at them.

No, I don't live in a major city. The major city I commonly visit is San Francisco. The "pornification" of advertising I notice there is somewhat different than you see in most of the USA. Billboard objectification seems to be accepted by that community, but only if it's equal opportunity objectification.

I think I've got a fairly interesting take on this. My last psych med killed my libido entirely, one of the side effects the big pharmaceutical companies always claim is "rare." I quit the med for that reason (among others) but it was fascinating observing the world from a place where sexual imagery simply wasn't interesting to me. I'm an alien in this world as it is, and zero libido only increased that alienation.

Many advertisements that I might have found appealing had I possessed a functioning libido were transformed into strange misshapen people. Every little Photoshop misadventure was instantly apparent to me. Wow, that person is anatomically improbable or impossible! Many "Sexy" ads and magazine covers became to me disturbing and surrealistic freak shows. Please, dear God, I'd rather be looking at Picasso's cubist women!

[redqueen]

105. Thank you for this excellent, thoughtful post. nt

[Fawke Em]

149. Rec'ing individual post.

Thanks, fasttense.

You get it.

No one wants to ban porn, but there are many women (and some men) who question where this appetitie is coming from to pornify everything.

[Bay Boy]

162. You realize that you redefined what porn is...

...by saying that what is shown on ads today is porn. Racier than it used to be yes, but porn no.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

6. i agree with you

But, unfortunately, as long as there is a market for it and there are women who participate in filming, I file it in the category of "nothing I can do to change the situation."

[justiceischeap]

10. I think porn and its effects on women can be complicated

On the one hand, women want to be sexually liberated. For the longest time, men didn't think women could or should get pleasure from sex. If we have multiple sex partners, that makes us sluts, men are studs for the same actions. Some women, for whatever reason, many probably not healthy, make the decision to make porn their career. They are then accused of degrading themselves and participating in actions that degrade other women. They too are seen as sluts/whores/prostitutes/etc..

So, it's okay for some women to be sexually liberated but only if they do it in a way that's acceptable to the masses otherwise, you're ruining things for your entire gender and being judged harshly. Hell, some even believe that when a prostitute is raped, she deserves it because of her "profession." And lets be honest, some women in porn would probably be prostitutes if it weren't for their porn gigs. It's just not a black and white issue. I believe feminists should support sex workers, if THEY make the choice to be sex workers, even if we find their profession abhorrent. If we tell them they can't do this thing, we're no better than anyone else that tries to take our choices away from us based on some vague idea of right and wrong.

[Squinch]

17. You say feminists should support sex workers. Why are you naming the feminists in this? Do you

think the rest of our culture is accepting and supportive and working toward safety and financial viability for people in the sex trades?

If there is discord within the feminist community on this, it is just a reflection of the disagreement and avoidance within the larger culture.

[justiceischeap]

32. There is definitely a divide within the feminist movement

on sex workers. And the reason I singled out or mentioned feminists was because if women who work for gender equality aren't universally accepting, then how can we expect anyone else to be? That would be like expecting straight people to support marriage equality when the LGBTQ community was against it.

Sex workers are a reality and most are forced into it but for those that willingly choose to be sex workers, for whatever reason (and as I stated before, the reasons probably aren't healthy), who are any of us to deny them the freedom to make that choice?

[geek tragedy]

51. How do we determine who's forced into it and who

has entered it freely of their own will? People can be suffering from PTSD but hide it.

[justiceischeap]

70. An example would be women who make the choice to strip to pay their way through college

The money is good and it gives them free time for their studies all without having to take out tons of loans she would otherwise be saddled with. I dated two different women who made their livings at one time in the sex industry--one a stripper, one who posed for explicit internet pictures. The woman who stripped did it to pay for her biology degree (she is now a nurse). She had no horrific past, no sexual abuse, loving parents. She just saw it as an easy way to get through college.

The woman who posed for explicit pictures is crazier than a loon (may have always been) and has since repudiated her past (as a bisexual and sex worker) based on her new-found faith but that is her decision--and I would argue that though she wasn't forced into it, she did have self-esteem and mental health issues that probably led her in that direction and she would be one of the unhealthy one's I mentioned.

There are women who make the decision to pose for Playboy and make money from that decision. As far as porn, here's an article from Jezebel from a woman who proclaims she is a feminist porn star and made the decision to get into porn for a variety of reasons. http://jezebel.com/5984021/how-i-became-a-feminist-porn-star

As far as determination, what gives us the right to determine who is forced into it, if a woman is telling us she made the choice herself? Do we trust that woman or second-guess her claims? I'm in no way downplaying the harm that being a sex worker is for some women but there are a small percentage of women that do this willingly and to deny that fact is harmful to the women who make these choices for themselves. The best thing to do in this regard, IMO, is to be aware that the issue isn't black and white--not much in life ever is and that there are some women who are capable of making the choice for themselves on how they earn their living--whether we agree with that choice or not.

[arely staircase]

271. all strippers are paying there way through college nt

[boston bean]

52. Now a day, most progressive feminists (which we have here on DU) aren't looking to do away with it.

I see the divide amongst feminists along the lines of those who feel it causes no harm at all to other women in society and others who feel is does harm women in society.

ie, porn is empowering to women (beneficial - no harm) vs porn objectifies women (harmful), and vice versa.

I think that is a discussion worth having. No side, imho, wins the argument hands down. I can see that women should be able to do what they choose, however, I do see how it perpetuates women as objects.

Seems there is no happy medium and these things can't be discussed without pushing around meme's aimed at both sides to this very complicated issue.

[justiceischeap]

62. That's why I say it isn't a black and white issue

Yes, porn can be harmful and degrading to women, I totally agree with that. However, I'm also torn on me, as a woman, having the right to judge and tell other women what to do with their bodies if they've made the choice to participate in the sex trade. I find it sad that women feel they have to resort to that to make a living but, in the end, it is their choice. And you're totally right, it's a very complicated issue.

[boston bean]

63. I was just pointing out what I find to be

really sad commentary on how progressives talk to one another about this issue.

Usually, its with words the patriarchy would be very happy to hear.

[justiceischeap]

71. Isn't that the truth. nt

[seabeyond]

274. we make choices all the time that are not beneficial to the whole, but to us as

individuals.

it is not telling a woman what to do or even judging a woman, to discuss the harm of an industry that we understand is disrespectful and abusive to them also.

[kag]

13. "I don't have any answers."

I do.

EDUCATION.

Unlike others on this thread, I do not condemn you for disliking porn. Nor do I think it should/could be outlawed, for the same reasons stated in the article.

I also agree that it is degrading to women and, at times, harmful to society.

But our response should not be to throw up our hands and assume there is nothing to be done. For those of us concerned about the role/position of women in our society our response should be to work even harder to educate women, to teach them that they have inherent worth and value above and beyond what their physical body can provide to a man.

Our response should also be to educate our boys and men, to teach them that women are not objects, are not possessions, and are entirely and inherently worthy of their respect and love.

Education is key.

Just sayin'.

[annabanana]

22. (smartest thread response here^^^ . . . . n/t

[kag]

59. Why thank you, annabanana.

And thank you for giving me the opportunity to type "annabanana" and tell my spellchecker to take a flying fuck.

Maybe all of my posts/responses should be done at 5:00am after an epic (and ultimately losing) battle with insomnia.

[leftyohiolib]

50. how are women degraded and how does is it harmful to society

[Sweet Freedom]

75. Education is very important

Unfortunately, in the case of minors, many parents ignore sex altogether and the schools certainly don't teach sexual self worth. Porn is completely free and available to everyone and my teenage daughter says that many kids -- especially boys -- are watching every day and shaping their beliefs and expectations about sex before they've even had it.

[MattBaggins]

119. This is becoming a huge problem in our society.

At my friends restaurant she had hired someone, who on his first day was assigned to prep food, and proceeded to prop his phone up on the table, watching porn while he was chopping vegetables. Thought this was fine to do.

[Sweet Freedom]

243. As shockingly inappropriate as that is

I believe it. I am friends with the IT people where I work and they told me some employees would spend the entire work day downloading porn onto company equipment.

They ruined it for the rest of us; now practically everything is blocked.

[NCTraveler]

93. Good op and good reply. nt.

[redqueen]

100. Great post.

I wish we spent more time really listening to the voices of ex or exiting porn 'stars'.

[liberal_at_heart]

110. of course we should always teach our women to value themselves and we should always teach

men that women are more than just objects. That being said I know several men who are respectful towards women who still enjoy the occasional visual stimulation of porn. I know men who wouldn't think twice about having a cup of coffee and real conversation with one of these women if they met them. And while teaching women to value themselves one of the things we can do is help these women make their working conditions more bearable. We can encourage them to develop other aspects of their lives so that they know they are more than just a sex object. Encourage them to become well read and educated. Encourage them to travel, to take acting lessons or get a college degree. As long as they know they are more than objects and men know they are more than objects then I see nothing wrong with it. Working conditions do need to be better for all these workers. They probably should form a union. Porn addiction is a problem and people who are addicted should seek help, but you can become addicted to just about anything. I'm addicted to sugar.

[cali]

14. Gentle readers of my op, do try and read with a modicum of basic comprehension.

I an not suggesting banning porn or telling people what to do in regards to it. That couldn't be fucking clearer. And yet, one genius after another is taking umbrage at exactly what I am NOT fucking doing.

I am stating my opinion. I am proffering evidence in support of that opinion. Don't agree? Fine. Dandy. But don't fucking put words in my mouth and pretend I'm saying something that I'm not.

[boston bean]

19. why do you hate men?

Jury that (above) was sarcasm.

Sorry this is happening to you too. but it's par for the course, when discussing issues like this, or just plain old feminism in general. Lot of words put into your mouth and lots of re-summarizations of something you said that bears no reality to what was originally typed. Just peoples ideas about something one wrote about it that somehow becomes the new meme to attack. I think it's purposeful.. but hey, I can't prove it.

[annabanana]

27. The tactic is very familiar to those who frequent

other "discussion" forums.

[seabeyond]

188. lmFao. i read cali and i am all like, you go. then read your... why do you hate men

and had me fuckin bustin' up.

perfect. and so very very true.

that is funny

[KoKo]

77. Exactly...if anyone read your whole post they'd know that you are not

NOT advocating banning hard core Pornography for those who seek it. It's that those of us who don't seek it are being inundated with what we feel is "Soft Porn"t on many the websites we read for news and on our commercial airwaves in advertisements online. On the Web and on the Commercial Cables "soft porn/celebrity porn" is being "pushed" to those who don't seek.

[redqueen]

96. Makes me think of an addict's response when you tell them abusing substances is unhealthy.

Overreaction, defensiveness, hyperbolic statements...

But yeah, I remarked on that yesterday. Criticize porn and you should expect the OMGZ NO DON'T TAKE MY PORN! MY SEX LIFE IS AWESOME AND I HAVE AN IMAGINATION BUT I CAN'T LIVE WITHOUT IT WAAAAAAAAAA! bullshit.

[hfojvt]

124. I am not sure how much is your opinion

and how much is from the article by Naomi Wolf.

A puzzling article which begins "At a benefit the other night, I saw Andrea Dworkin, the anti-porn activist most famous in the eighties for her conviction that opening the floodgates of pornography would lead men to see real women in sexually debased ways."

Which is rather odd thing to say since Dworkin has been dead since 9 Apr 2005

But Naomi also writes "Well, I am 40, and mine is the last female generation to experience that sense of sexual confidence and security in what we had to offer."

And she turned 40 on 12 Nov 2002, so this article would appear to have been written in 2003, about a decade ago.

[AngryAmish]

138. WHY ARE YOU BANNING PORN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sweet baby jeebus, DU is so stupid nowadays. I make myself dumber (if such a thing was even possible) coming here everyday.

[jeff47]

238. Well, we poor menfolk do only have enough blood to run one head at a time....

...and we're busy watching porn in another window.

[Robyn66]

292. Been there Cali (hugs)

I have had the same exact thing happen to my posts too. Its frustrating as hell.

[Why Syzygy]

15. nt/bookmark

[PolitFreak]

16. Agreed

I always bust a gut laughing when someone posits the question, "Does porn degrade women?" Jesus H. Christ, the whole goddamn POINT of porn is the degradation of women!

[Hissyspit]

82. No, it's not.

[temporary311]

113. You're right.

That said, there is a lot of porn where that is the purpose. There's also a lot of porn where the purpose is to degrade men. And there's also a lot of porn where degrading neither men nor women is the purpose.

[cantbeserious]

21. So Those That Have No Other Form Of Sexual Release Are To Be Denied

eom

[annabanana]

23. another attempt to not diiscuss rationally. . . n/t

[cantbeserious]

26. Seems You Are Putting Words In My Mouth Now

eom

[annabanana]

30. no.. just responding to your putting words in the OP's mouth. . . n/t

[cantbeserious]

33. Rather Presumptuous Of You To Assume So Much

eom

[annabanana]

296. I'll take my chances..

[cantbeserious]

298. No Chances Involved - Not Everyone Sees The World The Same

eom

[Skidmore]

25. For me this is one of the

laziest arguments in support of pornography ever. Denied what? Sexual release can occur in the absence of having a picture in front of you.

[cantbeserious]

28. That Assumes That The Arousal Response Is The Same For All

eom

[geek tragedy]

46. Masturbation is impossible without porn? nt

[BeyondGeography]

66. Tell that to showers around the world

[cliffordu]

307. Best. Answer. Evah.

[union_maid]

87. That's because

some people suffer a serious lack of imagination.

[Warren DeMontague]

132. People who are obsessed with how other consenting adults get their jollies

really ought to find other hobbies IMHO.

[geek tragedy]

133. The person was complaining that there were people who had no other

option but porn for 'release.' Not that people choose to, but actually claiming they have no choice in the matter.

That is a factually questionably assertion.

[Warren DeMontague]

134. No. And "Gay people can also choose to be celibate, rather than have sex with others of

their gender."

See? They CAN! It's a factual assertion!

But it also comes with a whole ton of baggage, namely, that it's somehow my business to tell consenting adults what to do, that I have some sort of moral authority to tell gay people that what they're doing is wrong, etc. etc.

It carries a whole ledger of offensive assumptions with it.

[geek tragedy]

139. What an idiotic, offensive comparison--people are BORN GBLTQ.

They are not born unable to achieve sexual release without porn.

The inability (i.e. not choice) to function without porn is a disorder for which someone should seek treatment. It is not healthy. It is artificially induced.


The person was claiming that there are people who are unable to achieve sexual release without porn. That is a bullshit claim. They sure as hell were not born that way.

[Warren DeMontague]

146. I'm suggesting it's offensive to offer "advice" to consenting adults on their sex lives.

Period.

How they get off- if everyone is a consenting adult- isn't really your business. That applies to LGBT people, and it applies to everyone.

[geek tragedy]

148. I wasn't offering advice, I was refuting the bullshit talking point

that people NEED porn.

Not CHOOSE.

NEED.

No one needs porn.

If people CHOOSE it, that's legal (assuming no kids or snuff) and their own business.

But, it's dishonest to say they NEED it.

[Warren DeMontague]

151. And it would be offensive to tell a LGBT (or a hetero person) that they don't NEED physical contact,

or a partner.

Get it? It's this entitlement mentality that presumes "I'm in a position to lecture you about how you get your jollies". Like if you walk up to a stranger eating a piece of cake wagging your finger and say "you don't NEEEEEEEED that cake, you"

Factually correct statement. Also sort of obnoxious.

[geek tragedy]

155. Using porn is a choice. Being GLBTQ is not.

Your need to make pornography some sacred thing above criticism as if porn users are an historically oppressed class is vile. the comparison cheapens references to authentic civil rights struggles.

NO ONE is oppressed by the criticism of porn. No one.

[Warren DeMontague]

171. Telling consenting adults how to get off, or not, is offensive.

Thats the bottom line.

[geek tragedy]

174. No one is telling anyone how to do anything.

But, claiming that people NEED pornography for sexual release is empirically false, just like claiming people need sex toys or oysters for sexual release is false.

The right to choose porn is not the same as the NEED for porn.

[seabeyond]

176. per these 449 comments from this link, these 18-30 yr olds NEED porn to get off.

they have been wacking off to porn for so long and too much that they get a hot girl in bed and cant get it up.

so, maybe warren has a point. maybe for some the NEED for porn is there.

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Mens-Health/22-with-porn-induced-erectile-dysfunction/show/469209?page=1

on edit... if this is jurored, check out geeks post. what he said. lol

[geek tragedy]

180. Note to alerters--the comments are in the link, not those participating in this discussion.

No one is accusing anyone here of anything.

But, yeah, anyone who NEEDS (not CHOOSES but rather NEEDS) porn to get it up has a disorder for which they should seek therapy or at least weaning themselvs off porn.

[Warren DeMontague]

189. My point wasn't about "Need", my point was that it's offensive to tell consenting adults what to do.

However, porn has been around for a long time. And all the hyperbolic hand-wringing warnings (excuse the pun) about the doom that would accompany easily accessible porn -or, in earlier eras, simply masturbation- haven't borne out. Not in reality.

[boston bean]

193. Here come the prude/puritan accusations...

right Warren?

[Warren DeMontague]

206. you mean these folks?

why don't you ask them?

[boston bean]

217. Doesn't take much to give you the giggles, does it?

coochie coochie cooo LOL

[Warren DeMontague]

219. It's one way to go through life.

[seabeyond]

239. is that the 13? yr old girl that passes out drunk and is implied one character rapes her? while she

is passed out? in the movie animal house. you know, for giggle. raping a teen rape girl passed out drunk.

yes. this would be an example of our rape culture.... thru out society and media

[Warren DeMontague]

249. Good point. A movie from 1978, about the early 1960s. And yes, while he does not, it is played for

laughs.

I doubt you would see such a scene in a mainstream movie, today.

Because intoxicated date rape is not considered a joke, anymore. And yet, porn is way more available than it was in 1978.

How does that work? Animal House is a good 35 years old, now. I thought the culture was careening to hell in a bucket because of all the freely available pictures of naked people?

[seabeyond]

252. Rape for laughs

Observe & Report has already caused quite a stir, containing as it does a scene in which the hero, Ronnie (Seth Rogen) rapes an intoxicated and unconscious woman by the name of Brandi (Anna Faris). The scene is played for laughs: after a series of scenes in which it's shown that Brandi has eaten handfuls of anti-depressants, downed massive amounts of tequila, and is unable to walk, maintain consciousness, or form a coherent sentence, Rogen drags her into her house, and the movie cuts to a shot of Rogen humping Brandi's passed-out, vomit-spattered body. He stops for a moment. She mutters "Why'd you stop," without opening her eyes or moving. Cue audience laughter!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/may/05/observe-and-report-rape


you would be wrong.

[Warren DeMontague]

253. Didn't see it... but it appears that it is being roundly condemned, as it should.

I don't recall similar condemnation of Animal House, but then this thread is about porn.

If you want me to change the picture upthread to a different movie, I will. Maybe Groundhog Day, because that's the official movie of DU porn threads.

[seabeyond]

270. dismissive. regardless of speaking out which you are arguing the right, right here in this thread,

they put it in a movie for entertainment in todays market. rape culture. and it was defended. by many. and reinforces the rape of an unconscious woman.

on du, there was a thread about this and that is the only reason i know about it. and of course the same couple men defending the movie and stating since she spoke, it was not rape.

you make a claim. it is wrong. i prove it with a link. and you dismiss it.

it was easy enough for me to find, but remember in the future when you demand research, no. this is why. it does not matter how wrong you are, you will dismiss fact.

[Warren DeMontague]

273. You *really* might want to try to work on your sentence structure.

That is just a suggestion. Or is that "dismissive", too?

If I had a list of all the times I've shown you to be wrong, or asked for proof and had you blow it off (like, say, the assertion that mainstream commercial porn in the US is full of slaves and children) ... well, shit, I'd have a big list.

Yes, you have apparently found a scene in a current movie that treats a date rape scene for laughs. Not cool. I don't remember the thread. I never saw the movie. Still, there is far more cultural awareness around the issue, than there was in 1978. And clearly the problem predates internet porn.

[seabeyond]

275. omg, adn still the never tired, "cant argue that so say something about sentence structure"

so fuckin' old and tired.

bu bye warren.

[Warren DeMontague]

277. Now I am going to have a Dan Hicks song stuck in my head all day.

Thanks.

[seabeyond]

200. talking about the effects and harm is not telling people what to do. talking about the effects and

harm is not advocating for a ban.

you have been told this repeatedly. it is a pretty simple concept. yet still, here you are repeating it again. people are talking about the effects and harm and you are shifting ti to telling people what to do, and others are hair on fire... YOU WANT TO BAN. it is once again ignoring what a poster says and making shit up.


talking about the effects and harm is not telling people what to do. talking about the effects and harm is not advocating for a ban.

[Warren DeMontague]

207. And I'm saying it's offensive to lecture consenting adults about their personal choices.

There are all sorts of things which could be construed as "talking about the harm" that people might still react to as, "really? Why do you think it's your place to offer consenting adults that advice?"

Rick Santorum or some other Religious Right Godbagger going on about premarital sex, or contraception; "well, harumph harumph you don't need those, do you?"

No, technically, and you're still full of it, buddy.

[boston bean]

222. Aren't you giving advice by telling others not to give advice.

You are advising on a particular subject, are you not?

[Warren DeMontague]

226. Yes, and to paraphrase Walt Whitman, if I contradict myself, it's because I contain multitudes

or either that had too much coffee with my breakfast burrito.

[seabeyond]

241. "it's offensive to tell consenting adults what to do." that is what i replied to.

it irritates people to discuss oil crisis issue, or taxes, or education, vaccines, health care, climate change, population.... all manners of things. but again, it is not lecturing YOU. it is discussing a social issue that effects ALL of us and like all other issues there are people with differing opinion. and like all issues, people are not gonna shut up about it because you do not want to hear about it. because someone else may say.... fuck, i didnt realize that the net porn was using fuckin sex slaves and CHILD sex slaves so i could get off.

wow

now i may have to think twice about using that shit to get off.

like you tell people with porn. you do not want to discuss or argue the harms of porn,.... then dont. trash the threads.

but, the issue is going to come up, and people are gonna discuss it.

[Warren DeMontague]

247. that's right, and I'm going to say that if you have evidence of widespread non-consent or non-adults

in commercially available porn, I think you should both present the evidence and contact the FBI.

Because just saying "we know this is the case" is ridiculous.

But the fact that the argument can't seemingly ever be made against material by and for CONSENTING ADULTS (if you could assume that somewhere, at some point, some adult has consented to have sex in front of a camera) ought to tell you something, right there.

[seabeyond]

250. lots of argument porn harms besides the hundreds of thousands of women, children used as sex slaves

in the porn industry.

when we discuss harm, we are talking harm to men, to women, to marriages, to children and to society as a whole. that sex SLAVE, fuckin sex SLAVE industry is just one of the many harmful (violently harmful) issues with the demand for porn.

[Warren DeMontague]

256. again, simply saying "women and children used as slaves in the porn industry" doesn't make it real

if you have proof that, say, porn companies in Van Nuys are regularly using kids, that's a huge story.

[seabeyond]

257. i wondered how you men justified using net porn without knowledge of a willing or forced woman.

now i see this line of denial is the way it works. you are the second man to suggest it is not happening. if you honestly want to pretend there is not a ton of info on the net from official personal dealing with the issue of trafficked women and children being used in the porn today, then my voice, links or articles does nothing.

why bother.

i often wondered how the justification of slavery was with good people back in the day. today we are seeing how slavery is allowed to happen, .... by even the good people.

[Warren DeMontague]

260. "you men". Funny. There are lots of consenting adult porn companies in this country. I can't account

for everything some guy may have shot with his iphone, but the major porn production companies are using consenting adults, not "slaves".

Now, if you want to rail against the consenting adult fucking that other consenting adults -including a huge majority of men AND women- like to look at from time to time, do that. But making stuff up doesn't help your case.

[seabeyond]

272. again., a dodge. how often do we hear you and other men on du laugh at those that PAY for porn.

you get your porn free. and you get your free porn off the net. and that is where you are clueless if a woman or CHILD cause there are no regulations, are forced or not.

dodge. and dismissal. to validate and excuse.

[Warren DeMontague]

276. If Aria Giovanni is a slave or a child, I plead guilty.

Otherwise, you got nothin'.

Go ahead, hit the google! Probably want to disable the net nanny first, though.

[Warren DeMontague]

303. Annnnnnd... crickets.

Yeah, thought so.

Once the unfathomable notion that there actually are adult women who take their clothes off in front of a camera of their own volition sinks in, get back to me.

[NCTraveler]

95. How do you get that from the op?

Use quotes where the op wants to deny people from their sexual release.

[cantbeserious]

181. Because Some Rely On Porn To Become Aroused

eom

[NCTraveler]

182. There is a serious disconnect between your replies...

and what is actually written in the op. It seems as though you didn't read before replying.

[cantbeserious]

288. I Read, The Replies Are About The Role That Porn Can Play, Just Castigating Porn Is Not Effective

eom

[Nye Bevan]

24. What do you think about this pornographer?

Candida Royalle (born October 15, 1950) is an American producer and director of couples-oriented pornography and a former pornographic actress. She is member of the XRCO and the AVN Halls of Fame.

Initially trained in music, dance, and art in New York, with studies at the High School of Art and Design, Parson's School of Design and the City University of New York,[citation needed] she eventually entered a career as a porn star, acting in some 25 movies.

In 1984, she founded Femme Productions, with the goal of making erotica based on female desire, as well as pornographic films aimed at helping couple therapy. Her productions are aimed more to women and couples than to the standard pornographic audience of men, and have been praised by counselors and therapists for depicting healthy and realistic sexual activity.[1] Her company has been very successful, producing a series of products known to have a more artistic touch, lacking some aspects of common porn, like a focus on male ejaculation. She described her approach to film-making in an interview in the Wendy McElroy 1995 book XXX: A Woman's Right to Pornography.[2] Royalle has stated she tries to avoid "misogynous predictability," and depiction of sex in "...as grotesque and graphic [a way] as possible." She also criticizes the male-centredness of the typical pornographic film, in which scenes end when the male actor ejaculates. Royalle’s films are not “goal oriented” towards a final "cum shot"; instead, her films depict sexual activity within the broader context of women's emotional and social lives.[3]

In 1989, she signed the Post Porn Modernist Manifesto.[4]

Royalle is also a member of the American Association of Sex Educators, Counselors and Therapists, and a founding board-member of Feminists for Free Expression. She recently made her mission of women's sexual empowerment multi-cultural by executive producing the independent film Afrodite Superstar, directed by African American director Venus Hottentot, a breakthrough film nominated for seven AVN Awards in 2007. Royalle is credited with also directing the explicit sex scenes, one of which features her Natural Contours products.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candida_Royalle

[brooklynite]

41. Ditto Tristan Taromino, Suzy Bright...

The Guardian:

Porn made for women, by women

Anna Arrowsmith (aka Anna Span) has been a porn director for 12 years. This made her recent campaign as the Liberal Democrat candidate for Gravesham rather controversial. "Not my cup of tea", said Nick Clegg about her occupation. But what she has been doing is not mainstream pornography, but independent porn made for women.

"I have fought long and hard for women's right to sexual expression and consumption, as well as for freedom of speech," she wrote in the Observer. But Gail Dines, author of Pornland: How Porn Has Hijacked Our Sexuality, challenged her in the Guardian: "What are you doing that is different from what every other pornographer is doing?"

The best way to answer that question is probably by watching Arrowsmith's films. And not just hers. Because a number of women, tired of mainstream porn and tired of criticising it without offering an alternative, are making the porn films they want to watch.

...SNIP...

"It is a prejudice to say that women don't like porn," says Erika Lust, another fem porn director. "Sex images make you hot, but pornography has been made by and for men. In mainstream porn everything is about male pleasure and women are objects. Oral sex for men can last forever, but when women's turn comes it lasts 10 seconds. Female orgasms are not an issue in most of the films. And women are shown mostly as prostitutes, which is sad."

[geek tragedy]

49. That sounds almost like erotica instead of porn.

I don't think anyone here has issues with non-degrading erotica.

[brooklynite]

55. No, it's porn...

Op-Ed by Candida Royalle:

Candida Royalle is a creator of feminist pornography and the author of "How to Tell a Naked Man What to Do."

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/11/11/does-pornography-deserve-its-bad-rap/pornography-can-be-good-for-consumers

[geek tragedy]

58. Definitions can differ.

Of course, DH Lawrence wrote stuff 10 x hotter than any porn, but I digress.

[Bonobo]

142. "Erotica not porn". LOL. nt

[opiate69]

289. Yup.. there it is..

If it`s by women, for women, then it`s erotica and thus A-OK.. but if it`s by men, it`s porn and therefore baaaaad..

[Frank Cannon]

56. I've never gotten over the fact that her first name is an STD.

Imagine being a porn star named H.I.V. Johnson.

[Heddi]

234. Candida isn't an STD, it's a vaginal yeast infection

which can occur without sexual contact, unlike STDs which requires sexual contact

[stevenleser]

29. I dissent. nt

[leeroysphitz]

31. I use pornography from time to time and I don't care how anybody but my wife feels about it.

In fact I think it would be nice to log on to D.U. once and not have to HEAR about how some people feel about it.

[MattBaggins]

64. Should we close Du down

Or just not talk about issues you don't want to hear about?

[leeroysphitz]

91. Maybe I've been here too long. I've seen all of these tiresome, pointless arguments over and over

and over again.

We live in a nation of over 200 million people and nearly everyone of them has a phone with a still picture and video camera that they take with them everywhere they go.

Based on that fact alone doesn't it seem a little too late and doesn't it seem to be a pointless waste of time and effort to have a debate about sexually explicit images?

[MattBaggins]

99. No. I have kids

It makes it all the more important.

[Squinch]

76. I imagine there are those who think it would be nice to log on and not have to hear what you think

about it. But when we use arguments that are based on wishing away the opinions of others, we do tend to get into silly circular nonsense, don't we?

[leeroysphitz]

85. I'm making no argument. n/t

[Common Sense Party]

236. And how does your wife feel about it?

Since you brought it up.

[NaturalHigh]

34. I mostly agree with you.

I don't like porn, but I don't think it should be illegal.

[arely staircase]

35. what about gay porn, who does it objectify? and for whom?

[Purplehazed]

90. No takers...hmmm

[NCTraveler]

97. Without a doubt there is some gay porn that is extremely degrading.....

to the males involved. To think there isn't assumes a complete lack of understanding of the industry.

[zazen]

115. bi author/activist John Stoltenberg has strongly criticized violent gay porn

in _Refusing to Be a Man_ and other essays. He was also Andrea Dworkin's live-in partner for several years.

He particularly detested the racist gay porn, where white guys sodomized black slaves "bucks" as part of a "liberating" sexual fantasy. The racist language and imagery in the porn excerpts were soooo disturbing.

[stevenleser]

118. OK, those are two small subsets of that genre. And? nt

[Warren DeMontague]

130. Andrea Dworkin, whose ideas on sexuality included gems like "men must give up their erections"

who, in the last years of her life, hallucinated that she was being chased by giant phantom penises.

These people are not experts on offering advice to others on their sexuality, gay or straight.

[MattBaggins]

126. Gay porn can be some of the worst

One argument against porn is that it enforces horrible gender roles and unrealistic sexual expectations and stereotypes. I find it odd that people specifically want to counter that by claiming that gay porn proves this false. The fact is that this particular attitude is itself rooted in a horrible stereotyping of Gays and gay sexual identify and behavior. People seem to think that if it's manly sex all gays involved must enjoy it. It perpetuates awful gender roles even inside of gay communities.

If you think that gay porn stars can't feel hurt about their treatment perhaps you should reconsider. Many Transsexual men when interviewed express deep sadness, actual psychological hurt from the roles they are often forced into such as prostitution and porn. They themselves will tell how much of the persecution, mistreatment and sex objectification comes from other gays. The expectation is that they have 48FF breasts, be fully passable and have 9 inches FF despite years of hormone therapy that makes all that impossible. Where does that image come from? The answer is porn.

Let's not pass on how Twinks get treated. They are another gay group quite often maligned by other gays, such as certain hyper masculine groups. Twinks even in the gay community are the "blonds", that is "young, dumb and full of...". The attitudes toward them is heavily portrayed and enforced in gay porn. Just as a woman might go home at night saddened about a near brutal gang bang scene, so might a twink. Just because he is a man stuck in porn, does not mean he automatically enjoys having multiple men ram their genitals down his throat while being slapped and called their little bitch or slut.

Perhaps people should stop and pause when they try to say that porn doesn't reinforce stereo types by using an example that is actually, the result of a deep rooted stereo type of gay men as all obsessed with kinky orgy sex.

Many of them do enjoy free and open sex, but perhaps just as with straight porn there is a side effect of creating roles, stereo types and unrealistic expectations.

[brooklynite]

37. Why did you post the OP?

Presumably you didn't just wake up in the morning and decide to share your thoughts on the topic. Personally, I don't tell you what I think about a policy issues unless 1) you ask me, or 2) I'm trying to change your mind on something. I assume you felt concerned enough about the issue to opine on it, in which case it will be interpreted as lecturing to the rest of the community, in which case you have to expect responses, some of them negative.

[Fix The Stupid]

53. Classic Shit-stirring. no more, no less. n/y

[cali]

57. not even remotely. welcome to DU

I posted it because I wanted to express an opinion about a subject. And I think it needs to be said here. It's not an opinion that gets expressed a lot on DU and is generally met with derision.

YOU don't know me at all if you think I posted this to shit stir.

[Squinch]

81. You are replying to a poster who is clearly projecting.

Wonder if he/she even knows it.

[snooper2]

102. LOL, porn threads are on the top of the rotation in GD...

Porn, pit bull, feminism, porn, nursing moms, porn, airplane seats, porn, TSA, porn, feminism, smartphones, cars, porn!


DU loves porn if you look at just OPs alone

[tammywammy]

104. Don't forget circumcision and kids on planes/in restaurants. n/t

[Robyn66]

293. Circumcisions of kids on planes with restaurants??

[Squinch]

78. So glad we have your rules about when and why it's ok to post. I was worried that not enough people

understood your feelings about this.

[Sheldon Cooper]

79. Ha!

[Bluenorthwest]

38. Some porn has no women, so I will not even read the rest of this conformity demanding lie

The Pope, Porn, the OP might as well just hang a sign on GD saying 'Sunday School in Session'.

[Puglover]

60. Yup

How tedious. Again and again and again. Our country is killing folks that have done nothing with drones controlled by 20 year olds thousands of miles away, wall street is nutz again,health care is still not out of the crapper,Rick Snyder has declared an Emperor of Detroit; but let's have another porn thread.

And Cali before you yell at me yes, I know you speak of all of these things.

I will say this however, I always get an icky feeling when I see straight porn. And NO not because I'm gay. I like naked people. But because so much of it seems mildy violent and domineering towards the female. And yes, I think that's creepy. Your thing or not.

[Squinch]

83. There's a difference between a stated opinion and a lie. And she explicitly didn't demand

conformity.

But ignoring those facts does up the drama factor, so have fun with that.

[bowens43]

39. if it's a personal decission made by consenting adults then it's none of my business

and IMO they have the right to produce and distribute porn.

Same thing goes for prostitution , it's ridiculous that it's illegal.

[KoKo]

89. Absolutely...but what about "Soft Porn that's invaded advertising

on the Cables, Websites with Google Ads, Celebrity Porn articles with salacious details about women, men, children (Huffington Post a prime example) and even DU with it's "Asian Women Ad" that many objected to. It's not about denying those who seek hard core porn in movies, web or elswhere. It's about all the rest of us having "Soft Porn, salaciousness/celebrity porn commercializing in our face as Mainstream.

I don't care if you lap dance in a bar, consort with a prostitute or watch movies on your I-Pad or your TV or rent them or whatever. I don't care if you buy porn watch it on the internet or whatever you want to do. But, to have "Soft Porn" pushed in places I go where I'm not seeking it, where young people can be dumbed down by the commercialization of it and influence their formative minds with distorted views of both women and men as sexual objects for promoting products or bringing in eyeballs for Google Ads to pay for access to what used to be mainstream content.

[cherish44]

42. I think porn is gross

I think sex is great/awesome/wonderful/fantastic (I like it, I like a lot) but porn makes it seem so icky.

[riqster]

44. Good OP

Having met a number of men and women who work in the "sex industry" (that phrase in and of itself creeps me out), I can say that there are a wide range of attitudes and motivations regarding their jobs.

One very common attitude towards the public that purchase their performances is contempt. Rather like a con artist, strippers have a hard time believing that anyone is dumb enough to buy into their schtick. Video actresses have told me similar things.

Having seen behind the curtain has rendered me porn-indifferent. But most people never have to share dressing rooms with exotic dancers or video post-production facilities with porn actors and actresses. I think if everyone could see how the illusions are crafted, they'd find porn to be yawn-worthy.



These performers are just that: performers. Once people get that, it becomes just another entertainment choice. And perhaps less degrading to everyone involved.

When you hear them talk about getting home in time to get their kids off the school bus, or bitching about how hard it is to find a good sitter, it becomes clear that porn performers are just people, and the aura of mystique is gone.

Such answer as I can find would be that. Not much of one, I grant you, but it's what makes me porn-indifferent, and it might well work for others.

[The Straight Story]

45. I get what you are saying, only answers I can offer

Funding for more awareness/education about the dark side/ill effects some porn can generate.

You can't legislate it, pray it away, although churches will tell it's flock it is a sin - which it seems some non-religious do as well but they don't use the word sin, and you can't the person sitting around watching it to have any clue about the people in front of the camera.

If people see folks being exploited they tend to sympathize more (again, if they are aware of it fully). People who still eat meat are more likely to back rules about how the animals are kept while still eating the meat (and probably would more so if they could take that one group serious, as it is their credibility sucks and they come off as whiners).

Porn is like guns. Both exist and neither are going away and we can't make a law about everything - or as they did in the bible, work to change the hearts and minds of people and you won't need to make laws.

[datasuspect]

47. all i heard was pron

chubs

[Dawgs]

61. Typical cali. My guess is you're getting what you REALLY want. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

67. If straights would stop denial of gay sexuality, it would help them deal with these issues they

have. But that would require inclusion of gay people in such conversations. The OP and half the posters in thread are so focused on a kind of porn that they pretend that IS porn. Message: if it is not straight, it does not count. Does not matter. Is not even mentioned.
"We have no gay people in GD"

[Sheldon Cooper]

80. I recommend you start a thread about gay porn.

Why don't you start the discussion?

[Nye Bevan]

109. Ah. Separate, but equal. You're not wanted here,

but you are more than welcome to go and do your own thing.

[Sheldon Cooper]

137. lol

[HappyMe]

122. Equal, but not really?

Aren't lesbians women? What about transgendered women? I think these discussions should include lgbt people also. If you are going to say that porn exploits and ruins people, then they should be included.

[Warren DeMontague]

210. translation: It fucks with my preferred narrative in an extremely inconvenient fashion

so please take your inconvenient facts out of the thread so they don't completely derail my harangue.

[stevenleser]

117. There is a disconnect there that I think prevents some from reaching the right answer.

Perhaps intentionally so.

They have to either pretend that LGBT porn doesn't exist, or assign it to some sort of 'other' and/or 'one off' category in order for their particular side of the argument to make sense.

Once you step out of the mindset where you only consider straight orientation, gender binary situations, the issue becomes much clearer.

[redqueen]

184. There is a glaringly obvious difference.

Have there been centuries of gay men oppressing other gay men?

Is there a pandemic of gay on gay sexual violence?

[stevenleser]

191. Yes

Wealthy gay people have oppressed other people just like wealthy straight people have oppressed other people. And yes, LGBT relationships have their own issues with domestic violence just like straight relationships. And yes, there is LGBT sexual assault and rape just like there is 'straight' sexual assault and rape. LGBT folks are human beings and are going to have pretty much all of the same positive and negative experiences as the rest of us.

What I don't think you recognize is that you are searching for a reason to be upset about and scream some sort of injustice about porn and you are searching for a way to shoehorn it into being about feminism and equality and it just isn't.

The LGBT dimension is just one of the many things that proves it.

Prism's post below really spoke for me. But beyond his post, you are never going to find a way to make me upset about other adults' fully consensual sexual practices with other adults. That is an absolute core part of my belief system that informs my belief in LGBT equality and my brand of feminism (3rd wave).

You and I are not going to convince each other differently so let's just agree to disagree.

[redqueen]

195. Yes, if you believe that the dynamics of oppression between members of an oppressed group

is no different than oppression of a member of an oppressed minority by a member of the majority which historically oppresses that minority, then we will just agree to disagree.

Oh and this?

you are searching for a reason to be upset about and scream

Really?

[stevenleser]

201. Right, because the LGBT community has no idea what oppression is.

The irony of this is, isn't it a patriarchal attitude in the first place that says that women should feel degraded from kinky sex but men should not? If you are forcing the issue that a porn scene between a man and a woman is degrading to the woman but not to the man, aren't you reinforcing this patriarchal concept? "A woman cannot possibly choose this, a woman cannot possibly want to do this, only men can really want to do stuff like this? Oh and those horrible men are disgusting for liking to watch it and let's not talk about the women who like to watch it because despite what the stats say we cant accept that well over half of women like to watch porn because they just shouldnt like it."

That is what I get when I see 2nd wave feminists asserting a difference between women and men doing porn, between straight porn and gay porn. No matter how much you suggest you want to smash patriarchy, you are reinforcing it with this position.

I can understand totally someone who comes from a position that says "I think sex workers should have more oversight, better conditions, etc."

Again, I think we are not going to convince each other.

[redqueen]

203. My point was the different dynamics involved in oppression between members of a group,

and oppression of a member of an oppressed group by a member of a group which has historically oppressed the minority group in question.

I said nothing about understanding oppression.

I said nothing about kinky sex.

And I'm definitely not "upset' or 'screaming".

[HappyMe]

199. This, and the fact that the LGBT

community has been oppressed by the straight community forever (I include men and women here). In all parts of society, it seems to me that there is always somebody looking down their nose at somebody. There should be equality for all.

[TexasPaganDem]

69. My experience seems to be different than most

But having lived it, it's the norm for me.

I was raised fairly conservatively, church going kid, wasn't abused, wasn't exposed to porn other than my dad had a deck of naked playing cards that we found as young teen agers. My first wife and I were very vanilla together because we lost our virginity to each other, married each other and didn't explore outside our comfort zones. Porn was never a part of our lives.

Well, we divorced 10 years ago; 5 years ago I started dating my now wife.

My current wife, while 9 years younger than me, had lived a lot more life in that department. When I met her, she was a polyamourous bisexual switch. She watched porn. Lots of it. Had her favorite actresses (Belladonna), her friends could joke about their favorite lines or scenes ("helicopter, helicopter!&quot , just like any other movies. She showed me some pretty terrible stuff (Pterodactyl porn? Really?) that we made fun of, and collected other (Pirates I and II).

It was eye opening stuff.

As a bisexual woman, she makes fun of the "bar-sexuals" (drunk girls that kiss to impress / turn on their boyfriends but are too chicken to go further), and she got me to go to my first topless bar, and bought me my first lap dance. What it comes down to is... it's fun.

So... is my wife a corrupting influence on me? Is she degrading herself and all women by having me join her when she wants to watch porn? We watch it a lot less than she used to by herself, mostly because we have other things that we can go do; she's out of college, I got a promotion, so it's easier to get out of the house. Also, when she starts feeling amourous, she has a partner to turn to instead of a screen.

I don't think that it's hurt us, and I dare say that it's made my life and our lives together quite a bit more adventurous. If nothing else, I got a pirate hat out of it.

[upaloopa]

73. Stop watching porn - reaction formation ?

[seabeyond]

74. to point out, speak out about all the many harms of porn to men, women, our children and society as

a whole has got to have a place right along side those that cheer their porn.

simple as that.

to point out the many many harms our pornified society is creating for all of us to live in, a world of trash and disrespect is not saying, .... ban.

oh, or that i am a fundamentalist fuckin' christian.

yup.... just put my ass out there for a mass of whoopin'. so be it.

[NCTraveler]

101. Just stopping by to deliver your whoopin'.

It seems as though an honest conversation cannot be had when certain industries have a very large client base. So many partake in porn that they would rather not hear or admit to the ills of the industry. And when I say industry, I am really talking about individuals. If they admit to the injury caused, they would have to admit that they have supported said injury in some way. I find it to be very telling that many of the same people that will attack Apple with respect to their labor practice, and rightfully so, will then simply say keep your hands of my damn porn. Not even willing to have an honest debate about the industry.

[seabeyond]

106. exactly. right on.

the harms reach in every direction. be it the participants in it, those just using it, those effected by the use of others but do not want it in their lives.....

and we are suppose to pretend otherwise.

i am not that dishonest with myself, and i wont be for anothers comfort.

[MineralMan]

86. I don't like porn, either.

I don't watch it. I have seen porn in the past, and found it more annoying than stimulating. The portrayal of uncomfortable people involved in sexual activity just doesn't do anything for me. The women depicted in most porn are clearly not enjoying the activity.

I don't watch it. Others do, though, and it seems to me that it is affecting the ways men and women relate to each other sexually. I think that in many cases that effect is a negative one. What I did notice when I took a look at porn was that much of it depicts what I consider to be acts that degrade women. I simply don't find that to be stimulating in any way, but apparently some people do.

I don't watch it. I would not ban the making of porn or its distribution, due to the First Amendment and the fact that what is porn to some is not to others. There are those who define quite innocuous material as porn. For those reasons, I would not ask that it be banned. I simply don't watch it.

[Capt. Obvious]

88. I <3 porn

Reading this thread put me in the mood.

BRB

[Yavin4]

92. Please define what is and what is not porn

In many cultures, many mainstream movies and TV shows would be considered porn.

[union_maid]

94. I think you make some solid points

Of course, porn isn't going anywhere, so those points are pretty much moot. It's been around forever in one form or another. But is there anyone else who finds most of it too silly to be really erotic? Starting with the venerable Asian erotic art and right through more recent adventures in pizza delivery, it all strikes me as things that are often kept private because it all looks so ridiculous when viewed by a non-participant. Just me, eh?

[samsingh]

103. give me a break - as long as the actors are freely participating

its all fantasy and fun.

I hear some people even enjoy sex and watching people have fun.

[MNBrewer]

107. Heterosexual porn

[lumberjack_jeff]

108. It is possible to be indifferent/ambivalent to porn and still believe that nothing should be done.

The answer is... it is what it is; people making their own choices.

[datasuspect]

111. thank you for the 8 millionth pointless thread

about shit that doesn't really matter.

[cali]

121. I do so love irony, dahlin'

and you do it so cute and so delightfully unaware.

kisses, pumpkin.

[datasuspect]

125. i try to keep my pointless shit in the lounge

plus i am aware of what is pointless and what isn't.

[LanternWaste]

197. I've never met a person who didn't believe that about themselves...

"i am aware of what is pointless and what isn't...."

I've never met a person who didn't believe that about themselves... regardless of whether it was true or not.

[datasuspect]

198. how many people have you met?

GD seriously does not need YET ONE MORE outrage thread.

this, frankly, outrages me.

[DirkGently]

112. I suspect tasteful, non-degrading erotica is possible. Haven't seen any.

Porn's not my cup of tea to begin with, but there is a reasonable conversation to be had if people can get past standing too rigidly on either side of the fence.

I see parallels with the debates about weapons and, as you point out, bad food. Someone sees a horrific outcome and wants to put a stop to all of it. Someone else gets their back up that responsible adults can do as they please if they're not hurting anyone.

As you note, we end up with a circular, ban / no ban slippery slope reduction that avoids the topic.

Fact is there is horrible stuff out there, and we ought to call it out, expose it, and where appropriate condemn the hell out of it.

You don't have to support a statement that everything in the world that could possibly be called porn is bad art, degrading to women, degrading to human sexuality in general, or just plain garbage.

But we all know a lot of it -- maybe most -- is.

We can talk about that, and acknowledge it's unhealthy crap, and try to push our culture in a better direction.

[Prism]

114. The problem I have with these kinds of threads

Is that the sexual component of porn somehow makes it a special conversation vs. other jobs we rarely think about. My brother drives those big double-decker trucks that haul cars around the country. His knees, back, and joints are slowly being wrecked over time - it's labor-intensive work. Coal mining, certain areas manufacturing. Many, many jobs will wreck a body.

We're not about to ban these professions while citing the health of the worker (I know you didn't advocate banning, but this conversation is floating around GD). Porn is hard work and can wear someone down physically, but no more so than many other professions. I would, however, like to see something like the OHSA get involved, the same as everywhere else.

As to your actual point, I tend to agree. Wider access to porn does seem to lead to a kind of specialization on the part of the viewer over time. I was part of a conversation not too long ago where the guys talked about how it took them longer to find the "right" porn than to do the deed involved with it. They spend tons of time clicking around the internet because they need a special type of actor or a specific act or position to sate their appetite. Whereas, when they first started watching, just about any old porn would do.

There's a psychology involved, about how the brain processes pleasure and reward. Our reward centers are, as you said, Pavlovian. When given buttons to push to receive a reward, we'll seek out and push those buttons our brain's wiring responds most intensively to. Sexual satisfaction uses the same reward center in the brain as drug addiction. When given unlimited access with zero consequence, some people won't have the self-control to regulate themselves. They'll descend deeper and deeper, and spend more and more time looking for the right buttons to push.

It is problematic, similar to how drugs can be problematic.

What's the solution? I don't know. Education, treatment to addiction. Yes to all that.

[zazen]

116. please visit web site of and join _Stop Porn Culture_

You'll find so many like-minded reasonable people who have heard all of the stuff above before.

And here's a recent email I received from Stop Porn Culture, which can be found at http://stoppornculture.org/:

"This summer, Wheelock College, together with Stop Porn Culture, is offering a Media Institute, an anti-pornography training, and a one-day feminist teach-in. Below are details and link to registration. You can register for any or all of the events. Scholarships are available for low income people.


Event 1 (July 9-12)

Media Institute:

Media Madness: The Impact of Sex, Violence and Commercial Culture on Children, Adults and Society
Faculty: Dr. Gail Dines and Dr. Diane Levin

(Participates interested in taking this as a 3 credit graduate course or for PDFs should contact (removed)

Some of the topics we cover:

* How media violence affects behavior and contributes to violence in society
* Growing up with Beyonce, Katy, Kim, Lindsay, Rihanna and so on ...
* How media images perpetuate and legitimize sexism, racism, consumerism and economic inequality
* The role of hypersexualization and pornography in perpetuating sexism and violence against women and children
* How media affects children’s ideas, learning, behavior and relationships
* How to critically deconstruct media images and develop media literacy skills
* How to become active in advocacy, community building, and grass roots organizing
* How to work with children, families, schools, and the wider society to counteract the harm being caused

Event 2 (July 11-12)

Stop Porn Culture Anti-Pornography Activist Training
Trainers: SPC Board


Running concurrently with the second half of the media institute is a training that provides participants with the experience, knowledge, and confidence to talk publicly against pornography in their communities. The training will include in-depth presentations on:

· How porn shapes our attitudes, identities, behaviors and sexuality

· Background on the economics of this global industry

· First Amendment and other free speech issues

· Women in the industry

· Racism in porn

· The question of "alternative" images

· How to organize in your community

We will also have a long session of practicing Q&As in small groups. The training will end with a session on self-care for presenters and activists, since this work can be grueling.


Event 3 (July 13)

Feminist Teach-In

Facilitators: SPC board and members

This feminist teach-in will provide participants with an opportunity to participate in in-depth discussions with leading feminist activists/academics from across the country, and also in small group discussions, to explore issues such as:


* History of debates within feminist thinking and activism
* The porning of women’s and men's sexuality
* The sexual politics of hook-up culture
* The history of race and racism in feminism
* Men in feminism
* Stopping prostitution and trafficking
* Capitalism, patriarchy and environmental justice
* Feminist blogging/writing as resistance

. . . AND: how to become a joyful, energized and effective feminist activist!


To register for any of the events go to: http://stoppornculture.us5.list-manage.com/track/click?u=1dec4cb5417170b81fe954a51&id=a45e67b8f5&e=d029d86773"

[Warren DeMontague]

215. Ah, yes, Gail Dines of well-known "Wheelock College", Wheelock College of course

being "well known" for Gail Dines, and basically nothing else.

[thucythucy]

120. Cali, I can always rely on you to provide

a thoughtful and interesting OP.

Porn as an industry and as a product and as a social reality should be subject to as stringent and critical an analysis as any other industry or product or social reality.

Progressives routinely critique other media products--the History Channel series on "The Bible" being one of the most recent examples. We've already had several OP's on how the devil in this series is portrayed by an actor who closely resembles President Obama, and more generally, how the devil is obviously a person of color and Jesus is obviously white. Check those threads to see how many DU'ers post a comment like some we've seen here, basically, "If you don't like it, don't watch it" Or, "Why do you want to ban programs on the History Channel?" or "There is no answer because there is no question, the program simply is."

Edited to add: actually, I just now ran across some DUers posting just that: basically, so what if the portrayal of Satan looks like the President (some say it doesn't) or is obviously black while Jesus is of course white, what does it matter? Sigh.

Or to offer another analogy, we routinely see OPs condemning this or that minister of some church for his (it's usually a man) sexist, racist, homophobic rantings. I have yet to see anyone on DU post, in response, "If you don't like what this minister says, don't go to his church."

No, in all those cases it's assumed that progressives have a right and a responsibility to critique such programs or sermons or pronouncements, and denounce them when necessary.

But somehow, for some people anyway, porn is sacrosanct, and any effort--such as yours--to offer even the most balanced and questioning critique is met with "so don't watch it," "why do you want to ban it?" etc. etc.

So thanks for taking this on. I make it a point to try to read whatever OP you post, expecting something cogent and thought-provoking, and thus far I've never been disappointed.

Best wishes.

[riderinthestorm]

127. That folks "enjoy" porn knowing full well the real physical pain the actors must endure to do it

shows how deeply misogynistic our culture is.

Good post Cali.

K&R

[Fumesucker]

183. That people "enjoy" football knowing full well the real physical pain the players must endure to do

it shows how deeply sadistic our culture is.

People enjoy eating crabs even though they know that crab fishing is dangerous, exhausting and sometimes painful work.

Most physical jobs involve some degree of physical discomfort, I've had zinc poisoning twice from welding on galvanized steel at work, it feels and lasts like a bad case of the flu and more than likely has shortened my potential lifespan significantly. I didn't know any better at the time but I do now.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-symptoms-of-zinc-poisoning.htm

[riderinthestorm]

185. Agreed on all points. I tend to try to avoid "feeding" those cultures in my own life

I don't watch football. I'm a vegetarian. I don't watch porn. Even further, when I can, I try my best to not buy products made with slave labor because I know its harming the actual people in that society AND that country's culture.

I don't tell others what they can and can't do but that doesn't mean I'll stay silent if a topic comes up in discussion (like here on the discussion boards of DU). Pointing out the harmful effects and having a conversation about them are progressive values imho.

YMMV.

[Warren DeMontague]

209. I think it's shameful that people watch "Downton Abbey" when those actors sit under hot lights

while their so-called "dinner" goes bad right under their noses.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyle/food-dining/2013/01/01/the-food-downton-abbey-real-and-looks-good-but-prop/EtjhDP1y4G35bMu98szifN/story.html

Fish was a major part of the aristocrat’s diet. Unfortunately, seafood isn’t good for filming. “We had lobster not long ago,” says Lesley Nicol, the actress who plays the cook, Mrs. Patmore. “By the end of the day the place was smelling very bad. The props guys froze it overnight and reintroduced it the next day, so you could imagine the double whammy by the smell.”

Some of these "consumers" of Downton Abbey probably think they're really watching an early 20th Century British Aristocratic Family enjoying a 6 course meal, even.

FOR SHAME!

[riderinthestorm]

221. Yes gosh because Downton Abbey is JUST LIKE porn...

Poor dears...the agony of enduring bad smells at work is JUST LIKE hard core sex!! The horror!!

As a farmer with 40 horses, I weep for them about the bad smells... its a tragedy!

[Warren DeMontague]

225. I am frankly appalled that Downton Abbey is not ACTUAL footage from 1920.

Who knew that things we watch on the tv were sometimes fake?

[riderinthestorm]

235. Way to jump the shark....

Whatever. You prove a point however - that having a discussion is impossible with the closed minded.

I'm not into watching, owning, endorsing stuff that's built from another's pain, degradation, or inhumanity. I try my best to work my principles into my life.

YMMV.

[Warren DeMontague]

248. well, obviously you're arguing from a position of moral superiority, especially since you've decided

that every single picture of a naked human or image of humans having sex in front of a camera infers "pain, degradation, or inhumanity."

Because lord knows it's totally IMPOSSIBLE to find any sort of "porn" that doesn't fit that description.

[bamacrat]

128. I think porn may be more detrimental to men...

It objectifies women, of course, but there is a large population of men who are almost dependent on porn. It desensitizes men to thinking women are willing to do the things they see in porn. When a normal woman says hell no to an acrobatic position or something a bit more kinky, they are let down and ultimately judge the woman based on unrealistic expectations. It can stunt men's development in both the bed room and relationships. It serves a purpose and has its place, but like many things, when used to excess it can have negative repercussions for the user more so than the creator.

[NavyDavy]

129. aren't there men being degraded or exploited in some of those movies also? Just saying

[Squinch]

161. Yes. Which really just strengthens the point.

[Warren DeMontague]

131. This hackneyed idea that people's brains are like the OS of a cheap laptop, so easily hacked...

it's ludicrous.

If sexuality were so easily "programmed", why don't those stupid re-education camps for LGBT people work? Because our brains don't work that way.

Or maybe people are these amazing sexual beings whose consenting adult choices and decisions and inherent orientations should be respected, until it's a hetero guy looking at a centerfold, at which point he is a helpless befuddled imbecile who doesn't know what he's doing, subject to pavlovian conditioning with a brain being endlessly rewired and 'hijacked' by nefarious forces.

[geek tragedy]

136. People's brains are easily hacked. Propaganda works. Otherwise

there never would have been a Marlboro Man and cigarette companies wouldn't have hired ad agencies.

The human brain is enormously malleable in the face of sensory stimuli. Some stimuli, such as gambling and porn, are psychologically addictive if overused.

No one's going to kick down anyone's door and confiscate good old fashioned American porn, but don't expect people to validate porn as harmless.

[Warren DeMontague]

141. how come we can't have a discussion about this without straw people?

I happen to feel very fucking strongly about the 1st Amendment. Somehow that means I'm "terrified someone's going to take mah porn". No, I've seen google image search. There are enough pictures of Aria Giovanni (go ahead, look) to get me through the apocalypse, yes indeed.

I am not "worried" that the porn will "go away". I am, however, pretty fucking serious about free speech. Serious enough that I supported the ACLU around Nazis marching in Skokie even though I knew families of concentration camp victims there, and come from a family of European Jews myself.

Gambling is psychologically addictive for some people, according to some analyses. The entire concept of "psychological addiction" is by no means universally accepted. I have to say, as someone who has nursed chronic alcoholics through the DTs, I have a little trouble accepting the idea of "addiction" to things like gucci handbags or scratch-its.

So again, I ask- if peoples brains are so easily hacked- particularly the sexual wiring- why don't those deeply offensive religious right programs around LGBT work?

Because they don't.

[geek tragedy]

147. There is less talk about banning porn in the US than there is of banning handguns

and assault rifles.

So, this talk about purported violations of the first amendment is beyond what Crazy Wayne LaPierre says.

And, the "ex-gay" therapy DOES affect the people who are tortured by it. It fucks them up royally in the head. It doesn't change who they were born as, but it sure as hell confuses them and leads to depression, suicide, and identity crises.

the APA considers gambling to be addictive. It's really not seriously disputed.

[Warren DeMontague]

150. Like I said, when someone goes into life-threatening seizure because they can't get a lottery ticket

I'll be more receptive to the "psychological addiction" argument.

And the "therapy" affects people by fucking them up BECAUSE it's a terrible thing to do to people. That doesn't mean it works. Waterboarding doesn't work, it's still fucking terrible.

As for the rest, you don't have to look very far in this thread to see the "porn harms" people promoting groups and memes that absolutely ARE about censorship. Just because something isn't realistic, doesn't mean it shouldn't be challenged. And the 1st Amendment is a very different animal than the 2nd.

And you know what? If someone had walked into an elementary school in January and killed 20 kids with a copy of "Rocco Does Prague", I'd be receptive to arguments about regulation. But the fact of the matter is, when consenting adults watch other consenting adults nude or fucking, it's their business, period. End of story.

[geek tragedy]

153. No, CRITICIZING something is not the same as BANNING it.

Sorry, but no one is oppressed by having their precious porn criticized on its own merits any more than the average Fox News viewer is oppressed by liberals criticizing it.

Porn is not above criticism, and it is perfectly healthy to criticize it. It is not a first amendment issue to have a cultural practice critcized.

The Catholic Church gets criticized.

The Republican party gets criticized.

Guns get criticized.

Circumcision gets criticized.

Hipsterism gets criticized.

So, no, pornography isn't some sacred thing that needs to be placed above criticism.

[Warren DeMontague]

154. Shit, I'll criticize some of it myself.

but if you honestly believe that is all this is about, maybe you also believe that John Stoltenberg and Andrea "Men must give up their precious erections" Dworkin are good go-to people for advice on human sexuality.

[geek tragedy]

157. No, I just don't think of porn like Crazy Wayne Lapierre thinks of guns.

That your biggest threat is a DEAD WOMAN is pretty telling of how delusional persecution fantasy is.

[Warren DeMontague]

166. And i dont think of it the way Pat Robertson thinks of gay people, either.

See how this works?

As for Dworkin, someone trotted her and Stoltenberg out as authorities on this shit upthread, it wasnt me.

[geek tragedy]

170. 99% of the American people do not give a shit

about those two. And that's rounding down.

You're free to defend the merits of porn. Just as others are free to criticize it. But it's dishonest to characterize a debate over its merits as a free speech issue where both sides agree that bans or restrictions are a bad idea.

[Warren DeMontague]

218. I've noticed that people on DU who subscribe to ideas they know are massively unpopular,

don't usually come out and state them in so many words.

For instance, I've argued with someone here who supports mandatory school prayer- or, at the very least, thinks it ought to be permitted/is not unconstitutional. I'm not calling that member out specifically, I'm just bringing it up as an example.

But does he run around shouting it from the rooftops? No. But he encodes that belief into his other statements pertaining to the matter, and if you know where he's coming from, that's the argument he's making.

Similarly, if someone on the board says "I am so glad Iceland and the EU are taking this issue seriously" when the most recent statements on "the issue" are flat out "We should ban porn"... what sort of conclusion would you draw, there?

[geek tragedy]

223. You would have to ask them.

Note that the EU has a greatly different approach to free spech than the US does, so the answer could simply be that just as the EU outlaws racial incitement and Holocaust denial and self-identifying as Nazis to run for office (all legal in the United States) they would also recognize that pornography would fall into that category as incitement against gender equality. In other words, recognizing the anti-woman message of pornography.

That's not what I believe--I don't think such things are practicable and thus give them little consideration--but you asked what conclusion I would draw from someone saying that.

[Warren DeMontague]

227. they're not practical, and the folks who made those proposals are currently getting an earful.

still, it's disingenuous to say that for some in these threads, it's "not about banning". It is, they just know better than to come right out and say so.

[geek tragedy]

228. Perhaps it is a good idea to address the actual words people are saying

in real time as opposed to the words you think they were secretly thinking when they typed something else at another time.

[Warren DeMontague]

268. yeah, that's good advice all around.

sort of like not trying to turn someone who posts a thread on "naughty words" into a soooooper-secret rape apologist.

[LittleBlue]

160. Some actuallly think it will be "educated" away

Their poor sons, who would normally never think about touching their penises while watching an objectifying porno, but society has forced its degrading values upon them. It's mommie dearest's role to "educate" the misguided men in their lives. Oh crap, now their daughters and friends are watching it... uh... Time to take up the role as matronly morality educator and fix the world's incorrect values.





I'm a little offended at the notion that we're all just robots in need of reprogramming. Imagine if it were a group of men suggesting that women must be educated on what to value sexually, the world would splode. Thank God they have no power outside their poor friends and family.

[Warren DeMontague]

167. I've heard cornflakes can help.

Should I try feeding them cornflakes? I'm at my WITS END!!!

[cecilfirefox]

178. +1 million. Generalizing ftl. nt

[Jack Sprat]

135. The porn industry has degraded itself

over the years. Once upon a time, there were some films called Swedish Erotica that were tasteful and appealing to couples. They were even educational to some. It was far above the animalistic pounding and thrusting done in porn the last 25 years or more. Today's porn is certainly degrading to women, making them appear as sex-starved tramps craving gangs of men. They have no appeal for loving couples because they lack anything resembling sensuality. I see nothing in these films but boring redundancy without feeling, nothing erotic about them. I guess it sells, but I don't know why. It's about as sexual as bowling.

[Fawke Em]

143. I completely agree with you.

You're not a prude and neither am I.

I just don't find the pornification of women sexy.

[ismnotwasm]

144. There are a number of issues with pornography

It's the equivalent of sexual fast food, there are recent trends of more extreme porn, young people buying 'toys' before they learn the eroticism of caress, young men asking for sexual acts that have young women puzzled, because they know 'that's gong to be uncomfortable'

We have for too much porn and far to little sexual education.

To me, most pornography destroys the erotic, and limits personal sexual imagination and guides fantasy to what a multi-billion dollar industry says sex should be.

And like the Wall Street fiasco we've allowed ourselves to be taken in.

The simplest answer is to look for the erotic outside of pornography and for pornography consumers to decline to buy what what is clearly harmful--such as adult actresses made to look like children, or very young girls, pornography depicting violence dressed up as sex such as rape sites.

It's up to the porn consumer to demand changes, the porn producers to take a good look at what they are producing, and start making scenes that have more sensuality as well as eroticism.

People will argue, in effect "that you can't account for this or that, and what about fetishism, alternative sexualities and just because YOU don't find it erotic doesn't mean I don't"

Or "porn reduces sexual violence"--there are so many things wrong with that statement and what it says about men I'm not gong to start.

I know all this. I also look at porn from time to time. I watch trends, read titles, try to stay informed about what I have an opinion about. Pornography is indeed, sexist as well as degrading to women and yes I'm very aware the actors are antonymous persons who have made a career choice. That doesn't change the power dynamic found in porn, nor does it change the titles or descriptions that include sexist terms. Porn is racist, especially, perhaps to black males, Latina and Asian females.
Porn is classist, it depicts different scenes of socio-economic stereotypes and reinforces them.
Porn, at least for women, is homophobic. The largest consumers of 'lesbian' porn are young white males, although efforts have been made by lesbian actors to make it FOR lesbians. Male gay porn seems to have many of the same power dynamics as straight porn, there is 'fantasy' porn where males are raped or forced.

So who is or is not a porn consumer is not my business. What your private fantasy life is is not my business.

Pornography, When it spills over to harm society by retarding our sexual agency, reinforces the worst of our traits of sexism, racism and classism and homophobia, it becomes my business. Like Cali I don't have answers. Those lay with makers and consumers. The best I can suggest is more open education and discussions about sexuality, and the end of patriarchal, heteronormative shame-based ideas and misconceptions about sex and gender.

[Warren DeMontague]

152. PORN THREAD!

[RiffRandell]

156. I hate you.

You made me respond. I really, really tried to stay away.

[ismnotwasm]

159. Ok, I give up--

Oh wait, I see it.

Thats just wrong WD. Bad poster.

[Warren DeMontague]

168. Are you serious? he's eating popcorn and everything!

I swear, it was like Christmas and my Birthday when I found that pic.

[ismnotwasm]

172. It's the headgear that threw me

It's always the right time for popcorn

[Warren DeMontague]

187. ***

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_the_Ape

[ismnotwasm]

190. Heh.

[cecilfirefox]

179. LOL. nt

[Cleita]

158. Forbidden fruit I suppose is the attraction porn holds for people.

It does objectify women and men to a lesser extent. I once played soccer with a women's soccer team and one of our teammates was a porn actress. She talked about the stresses and pains of the job, much like a waitress would talk about her aching feet at the end of the day. However, she was a woman with no skills and frankly not very bright so I don't think there was a lot of opportunity out there for her, only low paying jobs so she cashed in on what assets she had, which was her body and she was a single mother supporting a child.

[Warren DeMontague]

212. It hasn't been "forbidden" for a long time.

The short answer, to my mind, is many people enjoy looking at naked people, or looking at naked people having sex with each other.

[Cleita]

220. It's still forbidden. Most responsible people can't go out and do it when and where

they like so instead they sublimate by watching it done by other people. I frankly find porn boring because the sex portrayed is not the kind of sex life I want.

[Warren DeMontague]

224. that doesn't make a whole ton of sense.

I mean, most people can't screw on the sidewalk, and most people don't look at porn on the sidewalk, either.

There are many people with active, enthusiastic sex lives who like to look at porn, either alone or with their partners. And there are lots of people who aren't having regular (or any) sex who look at it too. My point about "forbidden" is, it's ubiquitous and fairly easy to find on the internet... not even like the days when people had to skulk over to the magazine shack by the railroad station.

[Cleita]

231. We will have to agree to have a difference of opinion on this

lacking a scientific study, because that's all it is a lack of opinion.

[Zorra]

163. It seems degrading to men as well, from my POV. Also, it seems to me

that when children are exposed to video porn, it may cause a possibly unhealthy shift in their developing attitude toward sex. Explicit, hard core porn is available to children at the touch of a button on an electronic media device.

Many children these days are taught about sex "on the sly", by watching porn long before many parents perceive that it is an appropriate time in a child's development to explain the birds and the bees to them. And the emphasis on sex by marketers may lead to deliberately created artificial attitudes toward sex.

Watching women who voluntarily allow themselves to be sexually abused for money, actresses who are acting as if they are in glorious orgasmic ecstasy but are, in fact, suffering excruciating pain directly caused by the staged sex acts, is probably not the best model for children who are developing lifelong conceptions and attitudes toward sex.

I don't know what the consequences of these types of exposures to sex acts have on children, but I personally believe that they are generally not in their best interests.

I'm not an advocate of censorship, but I believe that it is critical that some very serious long term studies be undertaken to determine the probable effects of porn on children, and what permanent effects porn has on them after they become adults.

I am very curious to know about the correlation of childhood exposure to porn and subsequent desire in children exposed to porn to commit acts of domestic violence and sexual abuse, particularly rape.

[Cleita]

205. A lot of people don't mention how degrading it is to men as well

especially since much of it concentrates on the size of their appendages. To me it's no different than fixating on a woman's double Ds.

[Apophis]

164. Adults who consent to sexual acts is none of my business.

My problem lies with people who commit sex acts against a person who don't consent or consents through coercion.

[PufPuf23]

165. Agree with your own paragraphs. Also have no answers.

[cbdo2007]

169. Wife and I enjoy porn...gives us new ideas and helps us improve our techniques

Don't really see the problem.

[cecilfirefox]

177. I think this is a bit much, personally. Then again, I only watch gay porn. lol >_< nt

[Johnny2X2X]

186. Hmm

Why do you think the more extreme porn sells right now? Could it be that that's what porn consumers want to see? It's a simple supply and demand equation. There's still plenty of softcore porn out there, if that's what consumers wanted that's what we'd see more of. People are acting like the type porn being produced drives the consumers demand and not the other way around. What makes this market different than every other market? It's not.

People think porn is responsible for human behavior and not human behavior is responsible for porn. Porn doesn't shape sexual desires in our culture so much as it mirrors them.

Is it degrading to women? Who's to say what is degrading, I doubt we could all agree on a definition.

[Taverner]

192. Disagree. But I've spoken my peace before...

[LadyHawkAZ]

194. The irony of porn-degrades-women threads

cropping up after two or three days of bombardment with threads on the damage of benevolent sexism is just priceless.

[Rex]

196. I can think of very few things more degrading to women then porn.

That is just me personally, some probably can think of a lot more.

[Ian David]

202. I once saw a porno where a man held a door open for a woman. I was appalled! n/t

[HereSince1628]

204. To deny erotic interests is to deny fundamentals of human interest

Sex is undeniably an aspect of human aspiration/desire.

Rejection of it is like rejection of hunger or association with friends--it is unusual within natural experience.

We endorse rejection of erotic interest, primarily because it -is- a foundation of who we are, and religious/cult discipline requires "control" over what we are. Even if such control leads us into cognitive, emotional, and behavioral dysfunction.

[Johnny2X2X]

211. Interesting take

I think the puritanical roots of America might have a lot to do with whether or not someone thinks something is degrading or not. I think from a man's perspective what some might view as degradation is really appealing to a man because it depicts insatiability.

Again, you cannot use a broad brush when it comes to sexual appetites, but I think degradation and an attempt to depict insatiability are often confused. One person might see any simple porn scene where a woman has sex with a stranger and think that's degrading when the whole point of the fantasy that was created in the scene was simply that the woman was aroused/amarous enough to throw caution to the wind. It also follows that some of the more extreme scenes, (anal, gangbangs, etc) are depicting insatiability more so than degradation.

Insatiability is something that there is also a gender based double standard with in our society. Men are lauded for being insatiable sexually, woman are demeened for it. Well, maybe since the insatiable woman fantasy is such a common theme in the most consumed pornography it shouldn't be thought of so negatively.

[Squinch]

251. No one is denying erotic interests.

[HereSince1628]

255. Taken on it's face, that assertion seems to be a denial denial.

lol

At the same time, just because the denial isn't expressed overtly doesn't mean it isn't there.

There is the denial we know, and the denial we know is a denial, and there is also the denial we aren't sure is a denial but could be on-going denial.

And then there is Da Nile... which no one is denying.

[Squinch]

267. Yuk yuk yuk. And the fact remains: no one is denying erotic interests.

[HereSince1628]

269. Oh, I think they are. n/t

[Squinch]

283. Oh. Well. That settles.... nothing.

[devilgrrl]

213. I think 99.9% porn is mean-spirited trash.

Absolutely nothing remotely erotic, just abusive nasty behavior.

[Sissyk]

278. Holy Shit!

You've seen 99.9% of porn out there??? For research, I guess? lol

Joke

[devilgrrl]

285. A lot of the hetero stuff is mean-spirited crap.

I'm sorry. "Suck that C*ck B***h! You like it!!! blaa blaa blaa.

What loving couple talks to each other like that?

[Warren DeMontague]

214. No DU Porn Thread would be complete without this musical gem:

[Rex]

229. Here, this will explain it ALL!

h

Based on a true story.

[LongTomH]

230. I worked at a cable TV outlet back in the 80s, when the Playboy Channel was just getting started

The stuff I remember was sometimes funny, sometimes sexy. That was more than 30 years ago!

I haven't seen porn - or rented a VHS (Yeah! That's how long ago it was!) for years; but, I hear that the stuff being made today is much more extreme. I noted, from my own reactions, that boredom set in and I stopped looking at the stuff. Porn makers reacted by making their product more extreme (and violent).

There is an issue about whether the more extreme stuff being made today is influencing the expectations that young men have and the demands they make on women. I don't know whether any scientific studies have been done on this; if not, it needs to be done.

I grew up as part of the Playboy generation; looking at my father's copy or sneaking it in. Looking back at Playboy, it seems awfully tame compared to even the 80s porn; but, there was the same argument going: Does Playboy represent sexual liberation or does it exploit women? Objectively, I can see it either way.

Hugh Hefner broke through cultural barriers restricting sexual expression; but, the magazine's depiction of women was more or less consumerist. A beautiful girl was just an accessory, like the sports car or the cologne. You could make the same critique of the James Bond movies; the Bondgirl was the classic damsel in distress and an accessory to Bond's consumerist lifestyle.

The point? I do see some real issues with porn; but, I think there are issues with the depiction and objectification of women in advertising and film going back decades.

[lefty_mcduff]

232. Ironic ads on this page

Somewhat ironic that the banner ad at the top of the page is for some "Asian Beauties" website (I'll spare you the link). I understand Google's keyword targeted advertising and all that, but still...

[Jamastiene]

233. I just want a riding vacuum cleaner. n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

265. There are about 4 things that, if my Roomba did them, I would never leave the house.

One is "go up stairs"

[LittleBlue]

290. Wow, that's Summer Glau?

Haven't seen her since Firefly. Holy sh-

[Warren DeMontague]

291. Oh yeah. Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles.

Lena Headey as the eponymous title character, before she got all Cersei-ified, and yes, Summer Glau as the terminator that makes the skynet apocalypse look like mayyyyybe not such a bad deal after all.

I thought it was a decent show. I was bummed when they cancelled it, I thought it had some interesting places it could go. Also had Shirley Manson from Garbage show up as another liquid metal one, which was sort of cool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminator:_The_Sarah_Connor_Chronicles

[Matariki]

240. This is an interesting article.

I'd say that I'm not 'anti porn' and perhaps even 'pro porn'. I think it has it's place anyway. But I think this is a very thoughtful article and tend to agree with it.

Thanks for posting it.

[mwrguy]

244. Good thing I don't watch porn with women in it.

eww

[RushIsRot]

254. I believe I've found where Meta went. Now I need to get a new needle for my pornograph.

[seabeyond]

259. meta was not a forum that discussed relevant social issues. GD is. this is a gd conversation. meta

talks about du. that would be your post, bring meta into a gd conversation.

good job.

[Warren DeMontague]

261. yeah, right.

[seabeyond]

279. talk to skinner about your "yea, right"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1259713#post1

[Warren DeMontague]

282. THERE IS NO WAY THIS WINTER WILL EVER END

[Warren DeMontague]

262. Welcome to the list.

You, too, are now considered a pubic enemy.

[RushIsRot]

299. Appreciate the honor. I have no sympathy for those who seem destined to die with a

self-righteous scowl upon their faces.

[Warren DeMontague]

309. Far be it for me to second guess anyone's exercise regimen...

Still, there's got to be a better way.

[opiate69]

281. ...

http://m.

[Meat-Is-Murder]

294. its a job

and no one makes them do it

[BainsBane]

295. in some cases they do

Some women and children are forced to do porn because they are enslaved.
And the obvious point is that no child can consent to participating in porn.

[cliffordu]

304. What about loving, exhibitionist couples who

post their most carnal escapades on the internet?


That is what will kill 99% of the professional porn, kiddies. Word.

[Warren DeMontague]

305. I'll tell you which business model is going to die first- the pay per view hotel softcore at $10 per

that is on a short clock, unless hotels stop offering wi-fi.

[cliffordu]

306. Really -

Just the music from those excretions are enough to make me want to kill myself.

[FedUpWithIt All]

308. Thanks for this.

The issue is broader and more complicated than many would like to admit. More than anything i fear for the happiness of our kids. We have no idea what the consequences will ultimately be when the kids, or even young adults, of today attempt to move into their 30's and 40's.

I have already seen, with my teen girls, some of the consequence of the "pornfication" of society. Boys and girls are deeply affected by the expectations which came about due to their immature understanding and processing of the material they are consuming.

I think the Pavlovian explanation was a very effective one. It's evidenced, even here on DU, every single day. Some appear terrified. One cannot help but wonder if it isn't because they are already conditioned and any perceived threat to their source is seen as a threat to their very sexuality.

Time to have another in depth discussion with my kids.