Do women have agency in sustaining 'benevolent sexism' if they are accepting and appreciative

[whatchamacallit]

of gestures that fit the definition? In another post someone told me chivalry is incompatible with equality. I can see how, in a general sense, that's true. I can also tell you, anecdotally, many modern women not only accept it but expect it. How do you view them?

[NaturalHigh]

1. "How do you view them?"

Normal. Appreciative of simple courtesies that society needs more of.

[Helen Reddy]

2. Really?

Many modern women expect it?

Could you please expand on your anecdotes?

[RobertEarl]

3. Ya know what?

Men are jerks. They are dogs. And in a funny way, they love all women.

And they make WAR. They support war. Which means death to innocents.
So... just admit it guys and try to evolve away from those animal instincts.

I think women would appreciate that more than anything.

[pintobean]

14. Speak for yourself

I can't imagine anyone saying those things about women and getting away with it. It's broad-brush sexist bullshit.

[RobertEarl]

20. Yep.

It's true, tho.

Is there something you think is not true? Discuss.

[Melon_Lord]

47. Ok...

Men are jerks.

Some are.. Some aren't.. So what? So are some women...

They are dogs. And in a funny way, they love all women.

Most love women, some hate em and not all are dogs

And they make WAR. They support war. Which means death to innocents.
So... just admit it guys and try to evolve away from those animal instincts.

Women make and support war as well. Women in combat for the last few years and women politicians that voted to engage in those actions.

I think women would appreciate that more than anything

If I had to guess what women want, it is to be treated with respect and not lauded as some great superior thing that us base boorish warring men can only hope to aspire to...


Quit complaining and act like a man...

[RobertEarl]

74. Act like a man?

Hahahaa.

I am not running away from the truth. I am doing what real men do: confront it.

When it comes to women, not only do we look at them funny sometimes, we also build weapons of mass destruction and blow away their houses.

You have a problem with that? Good.

[Melon_Lord]

108. Subtlety is lost on you apparently...

In any case you are rambling... You went from door etiquette to all war in the history of mankind to WMDs....

Why don't you pick a few key points, write em down, practice a few times and I'll come back and check on you in a while to see how you are doing?

[RobertEarl]

110. War is the basis for all our problems

There is a war on women. Right?

[Melon_Lord]

134. As a realist...

I would say that war and conflict is the source of and solution to all of our problems...

In the end, someone loses and someone wins. That's nature...

[zappaman]

58. Heh.

Post #47 said it best.
But Be Free to think what you like.

[pintobean]

61. Oh, yeah

I had forgotten. Thanks for the reminder.

[Honeycombe8]

4. Huh? Niceties and manners have nothing to do with equal pay, respect for another's

opinion and space, etc.

That was an old argument I heard YEARS ago, when women's rights were being discussed on tv. By WOMEN this was a point mentioned as not wanting equal rights, because, after all, they want men to give up their seats to them, open doors, etc.

The two things have nothing to do with each other, in my view. That doesn't mean I agree with the niceties. I'm just sayin'....the one thing has nothing to do with the other thing.

[MattBaggins]

24. The problem is that in many cases they do

The mentality of "women and children first" implies that women need assistance like children do.

The old school mentality of treating women as dainty flowers is the same that leads to women making less money then men or having a pathetically poor representation in politics. No one needs to stop helping others but it also is not some attack against men to ask them to consider if the upbringing of treating women differently MIGHT influence how they view them when it comes time for hiring and promotions. It is the same as the problem with minorities where people may be more likely to hire an individual like themselves. They may not be aware of even doing it and instead of saying that so called manners have nothing to do with equal pay; perhaps the very opposite is true and it is our cultural upbringing that is at the root of these problems?

[Honeycombe8]

34. You and I will disagree on that, then.

Fact: Women are, in fact, weaker than men physically, generally.

Fact: Children are, in fact, weaker than men physically, generally.

Fact: Most of society believes that a mother is the primary caretaker.

You are being disrespectful by using terms like "dainty flowers." That's just silly of you to describe manners that way, or to describe your duty as a father to put your child's life above your own.

Why do men wear a tie, even in the summer? Because it's a nicety and the norm in our society. Why do many women wear heels? Why do we eat with utensils in our country? Why do we wear clothes at all? Why do we drive cars or take a bus instead of riding a bike to work?

Who knows why any of us do the things that our society considered civilized and polite?

But none of these things have anything to do with equal rights, in my view. "Women and children" first, on a sinking ship, is appropriate, in my view...because children would of COURSE need to be saved first because of their innocence, their age, and the parents' responsibility and duty to care for the child. The woman would go with the child, as the primary caretaker. Now if the father is the primary caretaker, that family can make arrangements for the father to go, and leave the wife behind.

There is also the practicality of the man, being the strongest of the three (man, woman, child) has the best chance of surviving a dangerous situation.

Belly up to the bar. Having good manners is a GOOD thing.

[MattBaggins]

44. Your societal norms are in fact sexist

I have no desire to belly up to your bar. Having YOUR societal norms may be GOOD for YOU perhaps not so much for others.

Most of what you described belongs in the dustbin of history.

If women need to be second of the ship they shouldn't be the Captain, the ships doctor or on the crew at all. They should not be on planes nor allowed to serve as first responders. You help the children first because they most likely lack the ability to help themselves. The more able bodied help the less able bodied. THEN YOU HELP EVERYONE ELSE.

Perhaps my world view is more modern than yours. I would work side by side with capable women trying to save everyone.

[lumberjack_jeff]

42. Very well said. n/t

[Iris]

130. Dainty flower, maybe, but more like incapable and delegated to the role of childbearer

and caretaker. Somehow being not quite as physically strong as men was turned into also not being intellectually strong as well. I think divorcing the latter from the former is not that hard to do.

[bettyellen]

5. If she expects special treatment, she is not "modern"

In her thinking (or non-thinking).
She's stuck in the 1950's and has absolutely nothing valid to say to feminists.

She needs to grow up and ask for help when she really needs it like all grownups do, and not expect anything handed to her on a silver platter.

[Honeycombe8]

38. There is a physical difference between male and female, though.

There are times when a man, being stronger physically than a woman or a child, should belly up and assist the woman and child. Also...when you have a child, in my view, it becomes your duty to protect and ensure that a child is safe, even if it means putting his/her life above your own.

[MillennialDem]

43. But shouldn't a young, strong athletic woman help a small elderly or weak or disabled man?

I am a woman by the way.

[NaturalHigh]

45. Absolutely.

My wife, daughter, and mother all do, anyway.

[Honeycombe8]

48. Of course! I'm a middle aged woman, and I have assisted elderly people, or

verbally offered.

Courtesy and niceness has nothing whatsoever to do with someone's equality.

[MillennialDem]

51. My point is more with the belly up concept

Would I as a young single woman belly up and help a mom and her child if the three of were on a sinking ship? I haven't been in that situation but I think the answer is still yes.

I'm not helpless myself - nor would I expect a man to help me unless I was in a compromised situation and he was not.

[Honeycombe8]

53. I'd like to think I would, too.

I don't know for sure, since I've not been in that situation. But going by past things that have happened, I think my reflexes would kick in, and I would.

No, I wouldn't "expect" help from a man, unless I'm in a compromised situationa & he's not. But I sure wouldn't turn it down! I'm not stupid!

[MillennialDem]

57. Fair enough n/t

[bettyellen]

125. It's if it's expected where you go off track....

If anyone needs a little help you should ask the nearest person who looks capable. Woman or man.
If you need the specific services of a stronger man - paying or bartering favors would be more proper than just expecting a guy to do free labor just because you're weaker.

[Quantess]

6. I think...

if you open a door and there is a woman right behind you, you need to stop before going any further through the doorway, and ask her "would it be sexist of me if I held the door until you went through?" It is very important to wait until you have heard her answer until you proceed.

[NaturalHigh]

11. Or just slam it.

Last edited Sat Mar 16, 2013, 03:31 PM - Edit history (1)

Someone in another thread suggested that. I'm seriously considering it. Then I would only be called an asshole instead of a sexist or a benevolent sexist or something.

Edited to add:



Really - I don't slam doors in anyone's face. I promise.

[Quantess]

22. Did you miss the part where... I'm a sarcastic woman?

Sometimes I think I expect too much from the DU.

Edit to add: I probably expect too much from fellow human beings, in general.

[NaturalHigh]

23. Yes, I was replying with sarcasm too.

No, I didn't think your post was serious.

[Honeycombe8]

49. I caught it. I was going to suggest maybe handing out a questionnaire instead

of asking verbally.

[MattBaggins]

25. Do you actually refuse to listen to the issue or are you just being obtuse?

Everyone else is at Z and you refuse to go beyond A.

[NaturalHigh]

26. Just being obtuse (and sarcastic), Matt. Thanks for asking.

Are you just pissed at me today or what?

[MattBaggins]

28. Annoyed at the folks intentionally being morons when they know better.

If posts were started saying that institutionalized racism was made up faux outrage by angry blacks who need to lighten up and get over themselves; how fast would those threads get closed?

[NaturalHigh]

31. OK - you got me. I don't take this whole door opening = sexist thing seriously.

Silly subjects attract silly replies.

[MattBaggins]

33. Do you acknowledge that the issue of Benevolent Sexism is not about opening doors

and is a legitimate issue worthy of consideration?

[NaturalHigh]

37. I think it's seriously overstated...

and used by a few to stir up outrage, because, don't you know, we are ALL supposed to be OUTRAGED about something ALL the time.

Again, silly subjects bring about silly replies. Life is too short to be pissed every waking moment.

[Honeycombe8]

40. If you slammed it, that is a personal affront and shows your anger toward women.

Would you slam it on a man? Of course not. As a woman, I always somewhat hold a door open, if there's someone behind me, no matter the age or gender of the person behind me.

You wouldn't want someone to slam the door in your face. So you shouldn't do that to someone else. If you do, maybe you should see someone about those anger issues.

[NaturalHigh]

41. My goodness.

It was a joke. Sarcasm. Do I really have to go put in the smiley thing?

i've never slammed a door on anyone in my life.

[Honeycombe8]

50. Oh...sorry. Guess I needed the smiley face.

A few of the posts exhibited a bit of hostility, so I read your post in the same way.

[NaturalHigh]

62. That's okay. It's been a wild day here.

Are all weekends like this on DU? I usually only show up during the week.

[Dash87]

118. Or just be safe and slam doors in everybody's faces as hard as possible.

Wouldn't want to be a jerk by holding the door offensively.

[dogknob]

7. The temptation to have it both ways is large.

I see a lot of women who, probably unconsciously, take for granted the advances won by feminists of earlier generations while enjoying whatever perceived "perks" come with benevolent sexism.

No, it is not my job to start listing "hard news" examples for you.

No, I am not taking a "men's rights" or other ridiculous position.

Yes, I believe that men and women should be treated with equal amounts of respect and dignity in our culture, but we are not going to get there tomorrow; there are some steps along the way that many men will view as "emasculation" because they will need to give up a rather long list of advantages they currently hold.

[Quantess]

10. You nailed it!

This is what goes through my mind anytime some male holds open a door for me.


What fucking bullshit. Do you have any concept of human decency and polite behavior that goes into being considerate of one another? And do you understand that males and females can be considerate of other human beings?

[Quantess]

18. Okay. That's your issue and you should go deal with it.

I am not here to bully anyone. However, anyone who posts on a popular message/discussion board like DU should be prepared that not everyone thinks exactly like you do.

Also, what you wrote to me about a bunny(?) has nothing to do with a stranger 1000s of miles away from you. You may need to get a grip.

[DURHAM D]

8. How do you view them?

[whatchamacallit]

9. Good question

I guess they could be viewed - like men raised this way - as victims of antiquated but persistant patriarchal programming. That said, it must be pervasive as I've rarely encountered hostility to acts that could be considered benevolent sexism.

[mick063]

13. Ever watch the courting rituals of birds?

It is rather interesting.

Lions have it the best though.


As a man, I find it difficult to mitigate a million years of evolutionary behavior.

[whatchamacallit]

15. I do ponder where the societal and biological lines blur

But I also get that there's still a ways to go before we find a balance that honors our equality and differences.

[MattBaggins]

27. Not one of the behaviors described is evolutionary

They are learned cultural norms

[whatchamacallit]

29. I agree

but there is some question about what part biology plays in gender roles.

[MattBaggins]

35. Personally I would look to a Sociologist for that answer

Throughout history, and around the world; what "roles" have remained consistent?

[Iris]

131. Even now a baby can't just be a baby.

If the baby is a girl, she must have a giant flower plastered to her head. There's no way to really know what is societal and what is behavioral when parents treat their children very differently based on gender even before they are born.

[sibelian]

135. ....What?

[treestar]

16. The gestures are the most minor part of it

We keep reducing the concept to these gestures.

The idea was expressed in a book by Ashley Montagu, the Natural Superiority of Women. It went on about how women are kinder and gentler than men. More moral. Just better people. And that's why they should stay home and take care of and raise the children. And let men protect them. That whole idea.

The men opening doors for women, taking off their hats, not swearing in the presence of ladies, walking on the outside of the sidewalk, helping ladies into vehicles (fair enough with the outfits they had to wear in those days) were just little day to day things to help smooth over the lack of choice and freedom and make it bearable.

[whatchamacallit]

17. People keep saying it's not about the gestures

but the gestures are held up as prime examples. It's a little confusing, honestly.

[treestar]

19. The gestures are a symptom

But people seem to make it into the thing itself. And reducing it to holding doors is silly, because there were so many "gestures." Giving a lady your arm, walking on the outside of the street, handing her into a carriage - many of them have fallen away anyway. All we have left is holding doors, and women do that for men now too, so there is no reason for men to play victim over it.

It is still there to some extent - the idea that women are kinder, gentler, more loving, more likely to be faithful, worthy of protection, having their lives saved first, but the other side was staying in your place.

[whatchamacallit]

21. Out of curiosity

where do you imagine Joe Biden falls on the benevolent sexism spectrum?

[lumberjack_jeff]

39. Ouch. n/t

[Honeycombe8]

46. He's from an older generation, BUT his wife is a doctor.

My guess is that he and his wife do all the common, polite male-female gestures, while he is proud of her professional accomplishments, and they share a life together working toward the same goals. Just my guess.

The gestures really have nothing to do with a female's equality. To me, anyway.

His wife also wears really high heels! I imagine opening a car door for her or holding her arm while they go up stairs is (still) a practical assist by a man for a woman.

But women like me...alone ....I just go up the stairs on my own. And fall sometimes. Is it time to start wearing those old lady ortho shoes? Say it ain't so!

[whatchamacallit]

52. Careful on those stairs Honeycombe8

Last edited Sat Mar 16, 2013, 05:53 PM - Edit history (1)

[LittleBlue]

123. Aww Honeycombe

[treestar]

128. Women will have achieved equality

When we all refuse to wear high heels!

[treestar]

127. Why do you single him out?

I have never heard him advocate that women stay home because they are too nice and sweet to be in the work world.

[whatchamacallit]

129. Who did advocate that?

Oh right, nobody. This is the problem with projecting nonsense onto everyone who opens doors for women out of respect and courtesy. Betcha that old woman hater Joe does it all the time.

[treestar]

137. All of society throughout the Victorian age

And well into the 50s.

Really this playing the victim over opening doors is getting old. It's so false. I'm supposed to feel bad for men who get their feelings hurt over discussing this issue, just because of its minor effect on their feelings? What nobody said was that opening doors for people is wrong.

And if they do it for women but not for other men, they it is sexist, so quit defending it. I do NOT need any man to hold doors for me. In fact the whole thing is stupid. People should open door for themselves. I'm tired of having to run through doors strangers hold for me and wait for people behind me so I can hold the door for them. The whole thing causes useless interaction between strangers.

[whatchamacallit]

138. Why do you argue like this?

I've personally never made victorian comments about a "woman's role" , nor I have I ever defended someone who claims to open doors only for women. But don't let that stop you from flinging shit to see what sticks.

Also, make up your mind:

"What nobody said was that opening doors for people is wrong"

"I do NOT need any man to hold doors for me. In fact the whole thing is stupid. People should open door for themselves"

[lumberjack_jeff]

36. Agree except for the last sentence.

The little day to day things were intended to reflect the respect that should be given to one with such "natural superiority". It wasn't a head-fake.

Today men and women agree that men are obliged to change women's tires... and that her consequent relative incompetence shouldn't have any ramifications come payday.

[treestar]

126. Women can change tires

And practice professions. And be Senator. They aren't naturally kinder and nicer people

[lumberjack_jeff]

133. You're preaching to the choir.

Tell it to the women who "appreciate these nice gestures" and thus never learn, and the men who do it because they were "raised right".

[lumberjack_jeff]

32. Absolutely yes. n/t

[Aerows]

54. Well *this* woman

has agency to tell all of you posting these threads in an obvious intent to stir up shit to STFU.

[whatchamacallit]

56. Lol

I'm just trying to get it straight so I can be a better dude.

[Aerows]

59. Well

if you were hoping to "get better" instead of "just askin'", I might take your efforts seriously.

[whatchamacallit]

63. I'm serious

I was raised with the chivalry thing, but I just wanna do right by my sisters in the world. If it's best to cut that shit out, I'm more than willing.

[Aerows]

66. The shit you can cut out

are these stupid posts that attempt to distill women's issues into horse crap like "I opened the door for a lady and she got mad at me!" whines. I've yet to see a woman, feminist or otherwise gripe about a man opening a door, and I have certainly yet to complain about a man opening the door for me.

It's juvenile bullshit that's being displayed here, and you all know it.

Respect for women, preventing violence against women, and eliminating sexism has not fuck all to do with opening doors, tipping hats and any other petty little issue these types of posts attempt to relegate them too. It's just juvenile tweaking to be "one of the guys". If being "one of the guys" means you have to subtly ridicule women's issues with this type of bullshit, then I suggest that you probably have issues with being a chauvinist that has nothing to do with opening doors, tipping hats and other such petty crap.

[whatchamacallit]

72. How about you don't attribute every chauvinistic post you've read today to me

Cutting us all from the same cloth is, frankly, sexist.

[Aerows]

75. Yours is the first one I read

And yours was the one I responded to, and you were the one that got the talking to.

If you'd like to "enlighten" the others that what they are doing is petty horseshit, I'm sure more than one woman would appreciate it.

But points for admitting yours was a chauvinistic post, too .

[chowder66]

55. Being considered for the benefit of an act of consideration

There is the possibility that if a man/woman does NOT open a door for you then you are NOT worth consideration. Could that be sexist?
In this, you are NOT being considered for the benefit of an act of consideration by them (should they choose to do something nice).

That is another way to look at this.

Now it's obvious that sometimes people are in their own headspace and forget to be conscientious. That's to be expected and experienced many times over.
They may be late for something, or stressed or daydreaming and they "forget their manners" so to speak. That is acceptable mostly... if you can consider that.

________________

Personally, I'm aware of my surroundings most of the time (but not always) and if someone looks like they might be or are coming to a door I am opening,
I stand there waiting or I leave it *ajar (*if it is someone I know at my apartment complex).

I find it inconsiderate when either sex notices you... whether your hands are full or not and they allow a door to shut and lock right as you are approaching or even worse, let it close in your face. That is RUDE! Plain and simple.... or at least at first thought.
That tells me that the other person is either super consumed with themselves at the moment - maybe for a good reason or they are not very considerate. That is something one may or may not learn about them over time. But in those moments, I know that I am not always generous in my thoughts but try to leave those thoughts as quickly as they came because "I don't really know why they did that".


My mother and father taught my brothers and me to be courteous to others with respect and consideration. It was about thinking of others, not about "those that can't do for themselves". Some people really can't do for themselves; so a good lesson is to teach to do for any and all when you can. That is a way to equalize and not just pick out those who have real issues/disabilities, etc. There is nothing wrong in this world with being considerate, kind or asking to help or asking for help.
Shit we are human right?

I do what I would for a man, a woman, a child, an elder, disabled, abled. However, there are a few different rules or acts that we do for women, the elderly, children and our own sex. It all depends on the situation and these are simple examples to provide basic lessons in consideration.

My brothers and I were taught (I am female but I was given the same information, we had family discussions about these things)
We learned and expanded on our considerations as we grew and experienced different people, different situations, etc;

If on a date, pull out the chair for her, open the door and let her go in first. It shows you care (this is not an example of whoa, she can't pull out a chair for herself, etc). Yes, it is showing off for some young men in the beginning but it provides a real life example to behave in a considerate manner. (Practice makes perfect...and all that)

For me: "Always say thank you when someone does something nice and you should be treated with respect and treat others with respect. Here are some ways boys show it....opening doors, coming to the door instead of honking the horn, pulling out your chair, letting you go first, honoring your boundaries, yadda yadda yadda".

If you see an older person crossing the street, offer your arm to aid them in making it safely. (they may not be very mobile and may appreciate the offer or they might just like the company)

If you see a child wondering/lost... away from parents, help them find their way back.

If a man's car has stalled, get out and offer to push.
For me: "Offer to call someone" in my case I'm pretty strong so I would push.

If a disable person is having a difficult time getting through a door or needs aid in getting up stairs offer a hand.

And if anyone refuses your help just politely say your sorry and walk away.

This one is dying out; Address your elders as Sir and Maam to show respect for their experience and acknowledgement of the years they have been here before you
(not everyone deserved it but you learn over time who does and does not): Being polite is more about doing things in a way that is respectful but not necessarily deserving of respect (it may be someone you don't know too well yet and so on).


I'm not so sure about...."women go first". Maybe it was because of disasters and since women can have children or are mothers who must provide nourishment for infants (breast feeding) they should be protected.... but it carried over into modern times. It seems to me to be more of a tradition than some sort of subtle sexist act.

I think most men/women who do these courteous acts are considerate people and that is all. There will be those (both sexes) that see it as a chore and an opportunity to find or say something selfish in the process. Those are the people I think some are talking about in some of these threads.

If a woman or man feels less than capable because of an act of kindness then I think there may be other things going on that she/he would need to investigate within.
Possibly they have a skewed self-worth or feel that without complete control they are not valuable or worthy of kindness or plain old don't "need it". It's fine if someone doesn't want any help or doesn't accept courteous acts but there is no need to be angry at those who offer or to think they are sexist or looking at you as "less than capable". That is a very inconsiderate place to come from and those that do perform kindnesses deserve the benefit of the doubt (if they haven't done anything nasty in the process...like make rude comments when they do it).

Accepting positive acts by others does not make one "less-than"... and performing positive acts does not make one "more than".
It is equal opportunity kindness if you let it be.

[Apophis]

60. ANOTHER thread on this?

Is there a beating a dead horse smilie?

[Aerows]

64. More like

childish horseshit to get a rise out of people. If there was ever an example of how those who aren't "enlightened" but claim to be adult males seeking to understand, these juvenile threads are a prime one. Every now and then, a man genuinely wanders into one of these and asks questions.

For the most part, though, it's a bunch of guys being childish and stirring up shit. It's classic disruptive behavior in attempt to derail topics that are quite serious for women.

[gollygee]

65. The only annoying thing here

is that they're creating manufactured false outrage, all the while calling US outrage trolls. This is all so stupid.

[whatchamacallit]

67. Not my intent

I think I asked a legitimate question.

[Aerows]

69. It's exactly your intent

and the rest of you posting these garbage threads.

It's shit-stirring and subtle ridicule of women who stand up for women's issues.

[whatchamacallit]

73. Simple to prove

Tell me no women ever support or encourage this behavior and I'll concede. Otherwise, it's a legitimate question, and not deserving of your blind auto rage.

[Aerows]

79. Ummm

"Blind auto rage". I guess I was being shrill by telling it like it is.

Heaven forbid someone point bullshit out for the bullshit disruption it is.

I don't speak for all women, by the way. Weren't you the one reminding me that you don't speak for all men just a second or two ago, or did that slip your mind?

[whatchamacallit]

82. I didn't say or imply that you do speak for all women

That's kind of the heart of my question.

[Aerows]

87. You've already agreed

that your own post was chauvinistic.

There isn't much else I can say to you at this point except that perhaps you should spend less time trying to be part of the juvenile guy's club and spend more time in the "human beings that respect one another" club.

I'm not big on beating around the bush, as you may have noticed, so don't expect a whole lot of sympathy for you when you jumped on the bandwagon and promptly got noted as ... a person on the bandwagon. Got it?

[NaturalHigh]

76. Can you read the OP's mind?

[Aerows]

77. LOL

No, but I *can* read. That's all that is required in this situation.

[NaturalHigh]

86. Apparently you read it differently than I did.

[Aerows]

92. Bullshit

and stirring up shit aren't hard to recognize. It takes very little in reading comprehension skills and a minimal familiarity with the board you are posting to.

[NaturalHigh]

93. Okay then.

Forgive me if I'm not upset by the OP. Admittedly I've had a little bit of fun with the whole "door opening" crisis today. I hope that doesn't make me Glen Beck or anything.

[Aerows]

94. Yep, you've had a lot of fun with it

And that's part of the reason why it amounts to nothing but reducing women's issues to arguing about whether or not opening a door is sexist as a vehicle for entertainment.

It's not entertaining when there are still serious issue with violence towards women, pay inequality and other women's issues that are legitimate and not some triviality designed to poke fun at women that are trying to help other women overcome serious problems.

Thanks to you and whatchamacallit for finally admitting it in this thread. I hope both of you have learned something, because this has nothing to do with uplifting women, it is about ridiculing those who seek to uplift women when you do this kind of juvenile horseshit.

[whatchamacallit]

96. I can see you're going to be relentless in broad-brushing me

NaturalHigh's opinions and motives are his/her own. Your duplicitous linkage says more about your character than mine.

[Aerows]

98. Hey

I was broad brushing you into possibly learning something. If that upsets you, well, then apparently your thread to gain "enlightenment" was an abject failure.

If you are uncomfortable that this made you look like a child looking for entertainment by ridiculing women's issues, then perhaps you can take it as a learning experience. We all have something to learn from each other.

[whatchamacallit]

100. Why are you conflating my statements with those of others?

I didn't ridicule women's issues. I ask a pointed question, the rest is your creation. Please read through all my responses in this thread and ask yourself if I really fit the profiling you've been engaging in since you showed up. Try to be honest.

[Aerows]

103. If you think whether or not

you open a door is a burning question for women with regards to women's issues, you either just got let out of the bubble you've been living in since 1952 or you are trying to get a rise out of those who support women's issues.

I'll let you decide that one for yourself, because the rest of it is just disingenuous.

[whatchamacallit]

106. At this point I don't even know what we're talking about

Good luck to you.

[NaturalHigh]

97. Once you can tell me...

what opening doors for women (which was originally introduced to this subject by Seabeyond, BTW) has to do with violence or pay inequality, I'll be appropriately pissed about it. Until then, I'm going to make fun of that particular concept.

A little juvenile horseshit can be good for the soul by the way. It's better than being angry all the time just for the sake of being angry.

[Aerows]

99. I agree that juvenile horseshit can be good for the soul

but when it stoops to the level of ridiculing those who are trying to make the world a better place for half of it's population and raise awareness about sexism, I take issue with that.

Being angry is good for the soul occasionally, too, because it is a catalyst for standing up for what you believe in.

Neither state is good for long term mental health though.

Here's a few funny pictures of Grumpy cat to provide some entertainment:







and finally

[NaturalHigh]

101. I love Grumpy Cat.

At the very least we can agree that
Neither state is good for long term mental health though.

[Aerows]

104. I'm on board with Grumpy Cat :)

And too true - neither is good for long term mental health

[gollygee]

70. The concept of benevolent sexism isn't about a specific act

it's about underlying beliefs, that sometimes show up in ideas like that men should take care of women in one way or another.

Some women like it, I have no doubt. Some men don't get it, and some women don't get it, and I don't care. It's more of an academic question than about specific people. Just thinking behind the general societal rules. The idea that women don't need to learn to change a tire because some man will stop for them. What assumptions are behind that? What are the potential consequences? It's just wondering about that kind of thing. It isn't really a question of agency of specific women, because it isn't about specific people.

[Aerows]

68. No, see what they are doing

Is manufacturing outrage over women's issues to be "one of the guys". Minimizing and belittling women's issues allows them to feel like they are part of the guy's club.

There is no other reason for such juvenile behavior. It's "just askin' " type crap worthy of Glen Beck. It's disruptive and childish.

[gollygee]

71. Agree 100% there

Disruptive, childish, worthy of Glen Beck. Can't disagree.

[whatchamacallit]

78. So with a straight face

You're equating my post and motives with Glen Beck?

[Aerows]

80. "Just askin'"

Is right up there with "some people say".

It's a well-known way of trolling.

[whatchamacallit]

81. Ha fuck that

I'm learning that once someone decides something about you on DU, reality is irrelevant.

[Aerows]

83. One can only decide

anything based upon what that person chooses to post, since this is a message board, after all.

[whatchamacallit]

84. That goes for both of us Aerows n/t

[Aerows]

88. :) Agreed n/t

[NaturalHigh]

85. Just now?

Don't take it personally. Once you log off, the Scarlet Letter goes away until next time.

[DURHAM D]

89. Yes, these are just male bonding (herding up) exercises.

I don't know why they can't all go in the other room or down in the basement and watch the basketball tournaments on tv and drink beer like other men do when they feel the need.

[whatchamacallit]

90. For reals?

Seems to be all kinds of herding going on today...

[NaturalHigh]

91. Not all men are into basketball. Some don't like basements.

Gee, that was somewhat sexist of you.

[sibelian]

136. Not necessarily.

They might actually think what they're saying. Sometimes men do.

[snooper2]

95. certain posters are absent from this thread

LOL...

[Scout]

121. certain posters are present in this thread

LOL...

[Zorra]

102. Well, when a man opens a door for me with that "here ya go little lady" smile, I

know that he most likely has no clue that it is a sexist gesture.

I do not start screaming at him that he is being sexist. That just plain old would not be constructive. So I sigh, and accept the gesture, knowing that he would not understand, and might become confused or angry, if I gave him a public lecture on benevolent sexism.

This is why some DU women bring these concerns up on DU, because we figure that the majority of men here are intelligent and aware enough to understand what we are trying to express about subtle, insidious sexist actions such as acts of benevolent sexism. We figure that the majority of men here will get it. We figure if we get enough intelligent, aware men to understand our concerns, that someday the planetary gender glass ceiling may finally crack.

There is really no sense ripping ass on someone who is only acting out of an enculturated belief that their gesture is one of respect, and they have no clue that they are being sexist when they open a door for a woman out of a long standing cultural more that has been stuck in our collective culture consciousness since someone decided that women were "ladies",or whatever, and were too fragile to do anything for themselves, or needed to be rendered powerless, sometime in the past. I don't have time to go into any historical shit right now.

Men open doors for me quite often, so naturally, I do kind of expect it ~ simply because it happens all the time. It happened already today, at the Post Office.

I would consider myself to be flat out stupid if I did not expect it, because it's definitely going to happen. I just can't bring myself to rip someone's face off because of it.

Now, yes, of course, there are some women out there who accept the myth that they are inferior, and accept being treated like they are helpless wimps and second class citizens because "that's just the way things are", and these women totally annoy the heck out of me.

These women generally have agency in every form of sexism directed toward women.

[Scout]

105. we are damned if we do and damned if we don't

if we don't accept the "chivalry" we are bitches, feminazis, manhaters (evidence society and DU threads).

if we do accept it we are perpetuating the system.

i don't expect it. i don't want it ... my experience is that when it's offered, there is usually some kind of repayment expected.

[whatchamacallit]

107. I appreciate that

but beyond the rules and codes we inherit, we take a lot of social cues from our environment, which is why I asked the question in the OP. For example, what should you do if you like a girl who leans more toward traditional gender roles? Should you embrace it? Should you school her? Men like women. Men want to be liked by women. If it was clear that the vast majority of women take offense to chivalrous acts, I'm pretty sure men would drop those gestures like a rock. So, it's back to my original question.

[Scout]

112. well, if it's someone you want a relationship with, discuss it.

should be fairly simple. ask her how she would like to be treated.

[whatchamacallit]

114. And if she indeed prefers to be treated 'old school'

am I a sexist douchebag to oblige?

[Scout]

119. douchebag? no. sexist, maybe.

SHE probably has issues though, and if she were a friend of mine, i'd ... well, i don't have any women friends like that so quite frankly i don't know what i'd do.

i probably have women acquaintances who are like that, and that's what they stay, acquaintances. i don't try to convert them to feminism, and they don't try to convert me to being "old school."

i don't know why men are interested in women who are "old school"; i don't want a man like that my husband and i were both adults taking care of ourselves just fine before we met. we married for love and companionship, not because we needed someone to "take care" of us in that "old school" way.

[whatchamacallit]

124. I hear ya

Thanks for the answer.

[NaturalHigh]

109. "When it's offered, there is usually some kind of repayment expected."

Seriously? You think that every guy who opens a door for you (usually) wants some kind of repayment? You have an awfully high opinion of yourself.

[Scout]

111. depends on one's definition of repayment, doesn't it.

repayment could be as simple as the demand for a smile ... or could be much more.

as to what you think of my opinion of myself, well, i don't really give a fuck what a stranger on the internet thinks.

[NaturalHigh]

113. Fair enough...

but I still think you're delusional about the repayment thing.

If you don't give a fuck what someone on the internet thinks, why do you post here? Just to enlighten the rest of us simpletons?

[Scout]

115. that's not what i said.

but perhaps you knew that, and misquoted me because you think you are a simpleton (as you stated in your post)?

here is what i said, with my emphasis added for the part you left out:

as to what you think of my opinion of myself, well, i don't really give a fuck what a stranger on the internet thinks.

and you can think i'm delusional all you want, but that doesn't make me wrong. perhaps other women might agree with me if one were to ask them.

oh, and i notice of course you had to mention the most simplistic, ridiculous "chivalry" you could think of, door opening.

ever heard the saying "chivalry is a man's inclination to protect a woman from every man but himself"?

[NaturalHigh]

116. No, I've never heard that saying.

Actually, I don't think I misquoted you; I just quoted the second part of your sentence. I did not mean to distort your reply. However, I apologize for not including your entire quote. It was done for the sake of brevity and tired fingers.

As for your other assertions, I'll just respectfully disagree.

[JI7]

140. "there is usually some kind of repayment expected "

this is exactly it .

[Warpy]

120. Chivalry is compatible with equality when it works both ways

In other words, the first person through a door should hold it open for anyone directly behind him or her.

The only people to open car doors for passive occupants should be chauffeurs and cops.

If any guy tries to doff his hat at me, I smile sweetly and say "keep it on, I'm working class."

Most of us out here in the real world aren't worried about chilvalry. We're worried about a significant other becoming violent.

That's the sad truth. It's epidemic.

[NaturalHigh]

122. Unfortunately, those last three sentences are all too true.

[Iris]

132. Yep. Warpy is good at cutting through the b.s. and getting straight to the point. n/t

[JI7]

139. can you give specifics ?