Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
35 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
"Nobody in the world, nobody in history, has ever gotten their freedom ...." (Original Post) Scuba Mar 2013 OP
The Indians and Mahatma Ghandi, maybe? marble falls Mar 2013 #1
They didn't appeal to the moral sensibilities of the British. Aristus Mar 2013 #6
..... self reliant, humble, good natured, forgiving, classless, without rancor during or after...... marble falls Mar 2013 #15
colonial powers don't have 'moral reactions'. britain's decision to quit india had more to do with HiPointDem Mar 2013 #18
Gandhi's movement didn't happen in a vacuum. Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2013 #27
Nope, they just got the same rulers re-branded as capitalism. TheKentuckian Mar 2013 #19
Exactly. Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2013 #28
Yes but now it's fellow Indians holding the whips NOT foreigners NRA_SUCKS Mar 2013 #30
There are always overseer types. It spreads the blame and gains share of systemic TheKentuckian Mar 2013 #35
Nope. Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2013 #26
How about slavery in the UK? Nye Bevan Mar 2013 #2
Yes, the moral appeal worked in this context iemitsu Mar 2013 #3
Slavery was abolished in most of the British Empire in 1833 Art_from_Ark Mar 2013 #29
But british continued to profit from slavery. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #32
But not the slaves.... Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2013 #4
I don't know if I would describe the Quakers as being "on top" Nye Bevan Mar 2013 #7
Baring Brothers, Barclay's, Lloyds = all founded by quakers. Quakers were big financiers back in HiPointDem Mar 2013 #11
No the Haitian Revolution was the major factor malaise Mar 2013 #14
True Cedric the Clam Mar 2013 #5
I would say our candidates fail to appeal to the moral sense of the voters. Scuba Mar 2013 #8
I think you... ReRe Mar 2013 #22
Women got the vote treestar Mar 2013 #9
Ever heard of the suffragette movement? Or Mahatma Ghandi? Or slavery in the (north of the) USA? Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2013 #10
see 6. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #13
I think that 2:10 and 2:18 in the video you link to kind of refute your point. N.T. Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2013 #16
I didn't mean to link to the video, but to the statement. The video is a hollywood creation. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #17
+1 uponit7771 Mar 2013 #12
Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into a friend - Martin Luther King Jr. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #20
+1 valerief Mar 2013 #21
Shindlers list Cronus Protagonist Mar 2013 #23
Okay, someone somewhere likely has, but this does not diminish the point Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #24
So fucking true. Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2013 #25
I nominate Canada and Australia. There's a reason you don't study about their revolutionary wars. dimbear Mar 2013 #31
Ask the native peoples about that one. hobbit709 Mar 2013 #34
Sorta true, sorta not. There's a need for activists. Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #33

Aristus

(66,386 posts)
6. They didn't appeal to the moral sensibilities of the British.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 02:24 PM
Mar 2013

They refused to cooperate.



Peaceful, non-violent, non-cooperation.

marble falls

(57,102 posts)
15. ..... self reliant, humble, good natured, forgiving, classless, without rancor during or after......
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 04:10 PM
Mar 2013

The violence caused by the partition of the Indian continent that still continues isn't even a nick in scale. If there ever was a moral reaction from a colonial power to release a colony this is it. There was huge out-pour of sympathy of citizens of UK to release India into the free world. And India never used much violence to accomplish it. This was much more a moral choice than a feeling of reaction to threat. And the British definitely did react to it.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
18. colonial powers don't have 'moral reactions'. britain's decision to quit india had more to do with
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 04:46 PM
Mar 2013

political and economic calculations than moral ones.

TheKentuckian

(25,026 posts)
19. Nope, they just got the same rulers re-branded as capitalism.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 05:13 PM
Mar 2013

Most of Gandhi's peoples lot in life is the same or worse for the benefit of the same fucks as colonialism.

There is no freedom in sleeping under a sewing machine, subsistence day labor, or losing land. They are serfs and so it will be with us if we aren't careful.

 

NRA_SUCKS

(39 posts)
30. Yes but now it's fellow Indians holding the whips NOT foreigners
Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:53 AM
Mar 2013

it's easier and cheaper to hire the whip holders.
that way it's seen as an internal thing donchaknow?
The reality is somewhere in the middle. after all someone in India sold out their fellows as slave labor to the mega corps.

TheKentuckian

(25,026 posts)
35. There are always overseer types. It spreads the blame and gains share of systemic
Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:08 PM
Mar 2013

buy in all the way to the oppressed population and fostering new class divisions to exploit and hide behind. A few of these get to owner class which makes for a lottery vibe. Next thing you know, bootstrap fables galore and victim blaming and puffed up "we built that" bullshit.

Taken in the big picture the exploiters keep on exploiting to this day.

iemitsu

(3,888 posts)
3. Yes, the moral appeal worked in this context
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 02:18 PM
Mar 2013

which included the fact that holding slaves was not widespread, in Britain, and it was not a vital underpinning of their economy.
Some northern states in America outlawed slavery for "moral" reasons too, and because slavery was not widespread or vital in their communities either.
So people are capable of legislation, motivated by moral considerations, when it doesn't cost them too much.

Art_from_Ark

(27,247 posts)
29. Slavery was abolished in most of the British Empire in 1833
Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:30 AM
Mar 2013

with the Slavery Abolition Act. In 1843, slavery was completely abolished, including places like India and Ceylon, where slavery was a major part of local economies.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
32. But british continued to profit from slavery.
Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:45 AM
Mar 2013
http://www.jstor.org/stable/1835050


The historical reason that Liverpool is still a center of the cotton trade.

Yet although no raw cotton is handled today by its docks, Lancashire’s textile industry having collapsed, the city remains an important hub and is home to the body that sets the “Liverpool rules” under which much of the commodity is traded.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2a01be14-7f40-11e1-b3d4-00144feab49a.html
 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
11. Baring Brothers, Barclay's, Lloyds = all founded by quakers. Quakers were big financiers back in
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 02:56 PM
Mar 2013

Last edited Sat Mar 16, 2013, 03:26 PM - Edit history (1)

the day.

and it's one reason they turned anti-slavery (they hadn't been always, as a body)

lots of money, nowhere to invest it. they wanted more growth. the slave system tends to be an economically stagnant system. and truth be told, the plantation owners and shippers were already in hock to the financiers rather significantly.

malaise

(269,054 posts)
14. No the Haitian Revolution was the major factor
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 03:40 PM
Mar 2013

and don't forget the Berbice rebellion before that. Slaves were fighting back.
No doubt the Quakers appeal to those with a conscience but it was those slaves winning in Haiti athat changed everything and they are never given their deserved credit.

 

Cedric the Clam

(35 posts)
5. True
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 02:23 PM
Mar 2013

But Liberals and progressives mostly choose appealing to the moral sense of the oppressors as the prefered way to make a change.

When I see all the politely worded and fact loaded petitions that are so prevalent these days, I have to wonder how much effect they can have.

The people to whom these petitions are directed against don't care about facts or what other people think.

They only care whether or not they can get away with what they do, without paying a monetary price.

Boycotts or other means of hurting the oppressors financially are probably the best first place to start.

Oppressors have no moral sense to which one can appeal.

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
8. I would say our candidates fail to appeal to the moral sense of the voters.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 02:28 PM
Mar 2013

I strongly recommend Westen's "The Political Brain" for a thorough understanding of how our side is failing to win elections by not appealing to voter's value systems.

ReRe

(10,597 posts)
22. I think you...
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 09:02 PM
Mar 2013

... was the one that referred me to this book here while back. I do have it now. Sitting on my night stand. Think I've read one chapter so far... Have been sick and can't seem to get going on it. Will start up where I left off and get going on it this week. Thanks...

treestar

(82,383 posts)
9. Women got the vote
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 02:45 PM
Mar 2013

Through passage of the 19th Amendment at a time when legislatures must have been majority male.

Not that hopeless, and always worth trying.

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)
10. Ever heard of the suffragette movement? Or Mahatma Ghandi? Or slavery in the (north of the) USA?
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 02:51 PM
Mar 2013

Lots of groups have gotten their freedom by appealing to the moral sense of the people who were oppressing them.

Cronus Protagonist

(15,574 posts)
23. Shindlers list
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 11:57 PM
Mar 2013

He saved a lot of people and was surely, as a Nazi German, one of the oppressors who gave his workers freedom due, in part, to their appeal to moral generosity and sensibility.

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
24. Okay, someone somewhere likely has, but this does not diminish the point
Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:07 AM
Mar 2013

And I will add to it one more thing, equally accurate, and perhaps less well understood. No one has won their freedom without at least the threat of force as the cudgel compelling the attention of the oppressor. Not King. Not Ghandi. No one. King and Ghandi won using non-violence because, for the elite, it was preferable to the very real violence that was waiting in the wings as an alternative.

I am not advocating violence here or anywhere. Having experienced it I do not wish it upon anyone. I am merely reflecting on reality -- one of those truths we don't talk about.

But if you wonder why Wall Street wasn't impressed by drum circles that's the answer. When the elite are relaxing over cocktails and congratulating themselves on their mastery of the world, five million drum circles does not command the attention of, for example, a single alternative cocktail. They don't care about people protesting them, they think it's hillarious. And why wouldn't they -- you're beating drums and they're emptying your checkling account and getting fat on taxpayer dollars. They're sipping champaigne and passing the Gray Poupon while the police break your skull and haul you off on trumped up charges.

It's tragic that it so often comes to this, but there it is. If you want to stop, say, the Keystone Pipeline, fifty guys with hammers and pipe wrenches are worth fifty thousand with signs and drums crying for the environment.

dimbear

(6,271 posts)
31. I nominate Canada and Australia. There's a reason you don't study about their revolutionary wars.
Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:56 AM
Mar 2013

Didn't happen.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
33. Sorta true, sorta not. There's a need for activists.
Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:52 AM
Mar 2013

No one likes activists. They're in your face, pushy, arrogant, disregard rules of propriety and even civil laws. But they serve a purpose. It probably is necessary to be activist to change things.

Still, appealing to the morals of the powers that be is a starting point, I would think. That's the first thing to do. Then you move on to other things, when that doesn't work, and the basis of the activism is morality.

I do think that part of what helped end slavery in the U.S. was the immorality of it, as viewed by some of the leaders in the north and some of the ordinary citizens.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»"Nobody in the world, nob...