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Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
Fri Mar 15, 2013, 11:16 PM Mar 2013

The Face Slap – Our Unspoken Tolerance Of Violence and Sexism

This issue came up in the the multiple OPs on "benevolent sexism".

A poster told me the issues were unrelated but I strongly disagree. Both "benevolent sexism" and the "face slape acceptance" are based on the idea that women are the weaker sex that need to be coddled. Part of reclaiming equality and power involves assuming responsibility for one's actions. As such, the face slap and other forms of violence also need to be admitted as being the real thing -real violence.

I don't want to hear cries of "not equivalent" unless you are prepared to say that a slap or hit from a man is acceptable IF it is "not full strength".
---------------------------------

http://www.tanveernaseer.com/face-slap-violence-and-sexism/



Yesterday, I read the sad news report about the mother in Chile who in a fit of rage killed her daughter because she refused to do homework her teachers assigned her for the summer break. And while my reaction was probably pretty similar to everyone else’s upon reading this news, this story also got me thinking about an unrelated issue that we as a society continue to tolerate or at least see no harm in. As the title of this entry implies, I’m referring here to the face slap.

It’s a scene most of us have witnessed numerous times in both films and TV shows, and probably for some even in real life. A man and woman are talking about something and then we see the woman’s face contort into a look of anger, hurt or a combination of both. This is soon followed by the woman giving the man a hard slap across the face, often causing the man’s head to turn off to one side that demonstrates the power behind the hit. In dramatic works, it’s certainly an effective visual tool for the audience to appreciate the depth of anger and/or hurt the woman feels as a result of the man’s revelation. However, this physical move is not just limited to the dramatic realm as some vehicles even use this as a comedic device. After all, there’s nothing funnier that seeing a man getting walloped by a woman, especially an old lady, right?

And yet, I have to admit that thinking more about this subject, I can’t help but wonder why we accept women being able to express their emotions with physical violence, if not also why we find it funny in some cases when they do. As a society, we would never feel the same about men hitting women. Sure, the point can be made that a woman hitting a man in most cases won’t cause as much physical harm as a man hitting a woman. But really, is that how we should be quantifying what is violent? By how much physical injury we inflict on the opposing party? Besides, let’s be honest – hitting anyone on the face is going to hurt. If it didn’t, why would any woman bother to slap a man in the face as a means of demonstrating, if not reciprocating, their feelings of hurt and pain? So I don’t think anyone can dismiss slapping someone in the face as not being an act of physical violence. I assume we still collectively tolerate this double-standard because we still hold to that machismo notion that for someone to be a “real” man, he has to be able to take his lumps on the chin. That and because this behaviour is commonly viewed as being a reaction to the man committing a wrong against the woman and as such, he basically had it coming.

Of course, our own reaction to such a display doesn’t help as it’s akin to when we see a man walking down the street with a bouquet of flowers in hand – he’s bringing flowers to his wife/girlfriend because he must have done something wrong. We never question whether it is right for a woman to resort to violence as a means to express her feelings. Why is that? Why aren’t we more intolerant of this in demanding that women learn, as men are expected to, that when feeling such strong emotions as anger and hurt, violence is not the way to deal with it. This isn’t a question of whether the man “deserved it” or not – a concept that itself is a bit dangerous as it allows us to start excusing violence as a means to an end. Rather, it’s more about why we think a woman shouldn’t be expected to use self-restraint in how she reacts to her internal feelings. If a 9-year old girl can’t hit a boy for stealing her lunch, why should a 29-year old woman be allowed to hit a man for cheating on her? If anything, one would expect the female adult in this equation to be the one to act in a more mature fashion when it comes to dealing with their feelings. How odd that in reality, it’s the opposite that is true.

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The Face Slap – Our Unspoken Tolerance Of Violence and Sexism (Original Post) Bonobo Mar 2013 OP
I remember the lady who drowned her kids in the tub, many said it was the man's fault The Straight Story Mar 2013 #1
Are you talking about the Andrea Yeager case .... etherealtruth Mar 2013 #90
I have been here a long time The Straight Story Mar 2013 #91
There is some culpability of the "non'-mentally ill partner etherealtruth Mar 2013 #94
One example The Straight Story Mar 2013 #93
Actually, he was at fault for leaving her alone with the kids WolverineDG Mar 2013 #95
I don't even believe "women" can be spared in Texas etherealtruth Mar 2013 #106
Prosecutorial misconduct WolverineDG Mar 2013 #108
I’ve always hated frogmarch Mar 2013 #2
It will be interesting to see the (lack of) attention this OP gets. Bonobo Mar 2013 #3
not sure how much attention I will give you but Whisp Mar 2013 #4
I don't need your attention, thanks. Bonobo Mar 2013 #6
a very strange thing that you and I have not lived the same lives and seen the same things. Whisp Mar 2013 #8
Compared to the exact same level of force from a man. Bonobo Mar 2013 #9
that wasn't what I asked but Whisp Mar 2013 #12
"Dude", yes. Bonobo Mar 2013 #13
I don't think you understood my question, but that's okay, I know you have other things on your mind Whisp Mar 2013 #16
seem to have this clips right at hand olddots Mar 2013 #24
indeed In_The_Wind Mar 2013 #97
Radical feminists would not generally accept that it's possible for the motivations to be the same. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #21
I was slapped - really hard- in the face and not one person did a thing, everyone looked up and bettyellen Mar 2013 #30
I'm really sorry that happened to you. nt Bonobo Mar 2013 #33
Thanks, I have no clue WTF that guy was meaning to do. If he thought he could charm or bully me bettyellen Mar 2013 #36
bettyellen. I am so sorry that happened to you! In_The_Wind Mar 2013 #99
already answered. and will answer again. hitting another person is wrong and should warrant an seabeyond Mar 2013 #101
I have never heard or seen a woman slap a man outside the movies. DU Men- is this actually"a thing" bettyellen Mar 2013 #5
I have seen it. Bonobo Mar 2013 #7
Well, I've slapped many men on the back- while congratulating them. And I have seen a few parents of bettyellen Mar 2013 #10
A hard slap on the thighs? Sure they do. Bonobo Mar 2013 #11
Wow, that is a new one on me. It'll be interesting to read if this has happened to any DUers. bettyellen Mar 2013 #14
Likely that men wouldn't admit it often for a couple of reasons. Bonobo Mar 2013 #35
my only assumption is that the person (male or female) who hits is way out of control. bettyellen Mar 2013 #37
OK, I guess it is situational like most things. nt Bonobo Mar 2013 #38
True, and I don't think I am in any way your average American woman. I am not nearly as genteel bettyellen Mar 2013 #44
really? you have seen slapping movies? Whisp Mar 2013 #20
You mad, bro? Bonobo Mar 2013 #31
aggression? no way. Whisp Mar 2013 #103
Not in my experience. Common Sense Party Mar 2013 #45
sure sigmasix Mar 2013 #63
I'm very sorry for the way you have been treated. In_The_Wind Mar 2013 #96
Well, I've never been slapped by a woman. MineralMan Mar 2013 #89
The last two sentences of this story did it in. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #15
LOL. nt Bonobo Mar 2013 #34
+ 1 cali Mar 2013 #58
He put it up as flypaper. JTFrog Mar 2013 #86
I agree with this: In_The_Wind Mar 2013 #100
+1 treestar Mar 2013 #105
I have to admit that I've seen men get slapped before, hughee99 Mar 2013 #17
You're very honest. More so than others here. Bonobo Mar 2013 #32
Here's one thing you don't seem to understand, dear. Zoeisright Mar 2013 #53
Yes, the men always deserve it. Bonobo Mar 2013 #55
Christ on a crutch this is a dumb post Matariki Mar 2013 #75
^^^ In_The_Wind Mar 2013 #102
all abusers justify their abuse with 'they deserved it' fizzgig Mar 2013 #110
It seems to me a simple rule is hands to yourself unless it is conscentual dsc Mar 2013 #18
^^^ this ^^^ TDale313 Mar 2013 #29
It's mainly because women aren't physically strong or really violent LittleBlue Mar 2013 #19
My daughter slapped me olddots Mar 2013 #22
She needs to move. Common Sense Party Mar 2013 #46
Setting aside the issue of fairness or equality... lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #23
what do you think of the Violence Against Women's Act? Do you think it's a sham? n/t Whisp Mar 2013 #25
15% of violent relationships are nonreciprocal male batterers. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #27
I've seen a few face slaps working in the bar. polly7 Mar 2013 #26
Somewhat off topic, but... PotatoChip Mar 2013 #109
in movies and TV there is a lot of punching hfojvt Mar 2013 #28
I will admit to having actually shoved a man's head through the wall beside my door. PDJane Mar 2013 #39
Die Hard just started on ActionMAX... snooper2 Mar 2013 #40
Relentlessly poked fun of by "Airplane" longship Mar 2013 #41
Nothing compared to these guys.... davidn3600 Mar 2013 #47
Men write the scripts, men produce the movies. Starry Messenger Mar 2013 #42
This is important. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #48
So. Fucking. True. MotherPetrie Mar 2013 #51
It does not explain this video. Bonobo Mar 2013 #54
As long as it's a "garden variety" slap across the face... mwrguy Mar 2013 #43
Dear Bonoboo, I am really sorry you've been slappled. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY Luminous Animal Mar 2013 #49
I have never been slapped. nt Bonobo Mar 2013 #50
i'm sorry. I thought you had. But I am totally supportive of men creating Luminous Animal Mar 2013 #62
I was inspired to write this OP because of the "benevolent sexism" threads. Bonobo Mar 2013 #64
Oh yeah, that's the SAME thing as a beating. Zoeisright Mar 2013 #52
Never said it was. Bonobo Mar 2013 #56
A man slapping a woman is treated as nearly the same thing... Silent3 Mar 2013 #88
yeah, hitting people sucks. duh. But trying to compare as YOU often do cali Mar 2013 #57
I never did that, so you should have stopped at your first sentence. Bonobo Mar 2013 #59
This message was self-deleted by its author cali Mar 2013 #81
My apologies Bonobo Mar 2013 #82
Short answer... Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #60
The issue goes hand in hand with "benevolent sexism". Bonobo Mar 2013 #61
I am familiar with the ongoing discussions that inspired this thread... Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #67
Then your response is unnecessary. Bonobo Mar 2013 #69
Oh FFS. Nice answer. Violence is not justified, period. Warren DeMontague Mar 2013 #65
Women shouldn't hit men. Did you really need me to type that out? Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #73
honestly, it sounds better. Warren DeMontague Mar 2013 #76
My apologies, I suppose I should have been more clear. Time for bed. n/t Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #77
hey, no worries. Warren DeMontague Mar 2013 #78
I don't think it happens all that much in reality. It's a comedic shorthand (excuse the pun) Warren DeMontague Mar 2013 #66
Hmmm, well the data on domestic abuse suggests there is more on the part of women. Bonobo Mar 2013 #68
I don't rightfully know other than what I've seen and experienced. Warren DeMontague Mar 2013 #70
If your partner slaps you, you are NOT in a healthy relationship Matariki Mar 2013 #71
I'm not sure counseling could overcome being slapped by a partner to be honest. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #72
You misread my post Matariki Mar 2013 #74
Ah alright sorry. Yeah I guess I just could never picture staying with someone who hit me. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #79
On the one hand DonCoquixote Mar 2013 #80
Bonobo, I started a thread about this some years ago. In films and on TV, raccoon Mar 2013 #83
It could be, it could be... Bonobo Mar 2013 #84
When a woman is violent with a man, it's treated as in independent incident... Silent3 Mar 2013 #85
I don't think people should hit other people. MadrasT Mar 2013 #87
men could slap women in movies under certain circumstances not that long ago arely staircase Mar 2013 #92
IIRC Aristotle mentions this in the poetics Recursion Mar 2013 #98
Does anyone really do this except on soap operas? treestar Mar 2013 #104
I am more shocked by adult doctors slapping newborn children on the buttocks geek tragedy Mar 2013 #107
I was slapped in the face once as a child from a woman who was caring for me liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #111

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
1. I remember the lady who drowned her kids in the tub, many said it was the man's fault
Fri Mar 15, 2013, 11:25 PM
Mar 2013

Not sure how all this works. Men kill kids, always their fault, never hear someone blaming the spouse...

etherealtruth

(22,165 posts)
90. Are you talking about the Andrea Yeager case ....
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 09:52 AM
Mar 2013

... A case where the mother suffered from SEVERE post partum psychosis? A case in Texas (where "they" have executed the mentally ill, the mentally retarded etc), where the "system" recognized the severity of her mental illness.

Not sure how the very tragic case of a severely delusional mentally ill parent (very documented and established by psychiatric professionals and a hostile Texas legal system) fits in to this?

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
91. I have been here a long time
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 09:55 AM
Mar 2013

And was here when that case was going on - talking about people here and how they reacted. Many blamed the husband for it.

etherealtruth

(22,165 posts)
94. There is some culpability of the "non'-mentally ill partner
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 10:06 AM
Mar 2013

In a sense he chose to leave his children home (additionally home schooled) with a severely mentally ill parent.

On a human level I understand that denial (not being able to accept that one's life partner is severely ill) is very powerful ... and that he was facing issues few of us are called upon to confront. Should he have acted ... of course, but again, I do have compassion for all involved in that horrid situation.

This has nothing to do with the OP, however ... this is not about societal acceptance, sexism .... this was a tragic occurrence associated with a sever psychiatric disorder.

*I am not a prolific poster, but I too, have been around a long time.

WolverineDG

(22,298 posts)
95. Actually, he was at fault for leaving her alone with the kids
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 10:17 AM
Mar 2013

when he knew she was psychotic.

But of course, while women in Texas can get charged with murder by omission all the time, men never have or will be.

etherealtruth

(22,165 posts)
106. I don't even believe "women" can be spared in Texas
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 10:48 AM
Mar 2013

Her delusions were associated with very crazed Christian fundamentalist imagery and beliefs .. had her delusions been associated with something else ... I don't believe the "system" in Texas would have spared her life, either.

I was actually quite shocked that (even with the religion based delusions) that she was not executed.

WolverineDG

(22,298 posts)
108. Prosecutorial misconduct
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 11:49 AM
Mar 2013

they were able to prove that the prosecutors put on perjured testimony & also that she was nuttier than a fruitcake. They had an "expert" testify that she saw a Law & Order episode where the murderer killed her kids & got off by claiming she was insane. Turns out there was never such an episode (at least as of the date of the trial & certainly before the children were killed).

She's now institutionalized for life, but it burns my butt that her husband got off scott-free, able to remarry & have more kids when his ass should be in jail too!

frogmarch

(12,154 posts)
2. I’ve always hated
Fri Mar 15, 2013, 11:39 PM
Mar 2013

face slaps in movies. No one I know slaps faces, but in movies, especially in romantic comedies, sometimes a woman slaps a man across the face. It’s usually because he’s said something she took offense at, like her hair is as shiny as a river otter’s fur, and she doesn’t like river otters. Anyway, it really, really irks me when women in movies slap, punch, or shove men for no good reason, or assault them in other ways, just because it’s supposed to be cute for women to do that. It isn’t.

And I never found humor in the Lorena Bobbit case either.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
3. It will be interesting to see the (lack of) attention this OP gets.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 12:04 AM
Mar 2013

Some truths are uncomfortable.

 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
4. not sure how much attention I will give you but
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 12:09 AM
Mar 2013

I'm disgusted by Loreena Bobbit and what she did and I too think that women slapping men in movies (I don't think I have ever seen it in real life, but the other way around I have a lot) is stupid.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
6. I don't need your attention, thanks.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 12:12 AM
Mar 2013

I have never seen a man slap a woman but I have seen women slap men.

If a man, in a bar, slapped a woman you would be likely to see him get gang-rushed whatever reason he may have felt.

But in the reverse case, people assume that the man has something to deserve it and it will likely be met by indifference from men and cheers of approval from women.

This has been demonstrated.

 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
8. a very strange thing that you and I have not lived the same lives and seen the same things.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 12:16 AM
Mar 2013

! duh

what again are you trying to point out?

that slaps are violence? I may agree to a point, but compared to what.

In the arena of violence and abuse would you rather be the receiver of that as which sex?

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
9. Compared to the exact same level of force from a man.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 12:19 AM
Mar 2013

Let's compare apples to apples just for a moment here.

Slaps of exactly the same force and in exactly the same way and for exactly the same reason would result in radically different interpretations by almost everyone, including I suspect you and I.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
13. "Dude", yes.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 12:25 AM
Mar 2013

Thats the dismissive word often used by some rad fems, I believe.

Your question was which gender I would rather be when receiving a slap of the same force, right?

The answer to your (dumb) question is neither.

 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
16. I don't think you understood my question, but that's okay, I know you have other things on your mind
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 12:33 AM
Mar 2013

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
21. Radical feminists would not generally accept that it's possible for the motivations to be the same.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 12:41 AM
Mar 2013

Or that even beyond motivations, the results could be the same.

In other words, a man striking a woman is reinforcing his social dominance and is using physical violence as a language to marginalize women. A woman striking a man cannot enforce the same motivations or results because society places women lower on the social ladder.

Motivation aside, it is my belief that it is not possible for the emotional and social damage to be equal, even if the literal physical damage might be.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
30. I was slapped - really hard- in the face and not one person did a thing, everyone looked up and
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 01:19 AM
Mar 2013

turned back to what they were doing. It was a total stranger who sat at my table and started to harass me and pick at my plate. I was trying to get the manager's attention, but I scolded him and told him to leave. This was in Paris.
Boy my neck hurt for days, but it was even worse that people acted as if nothing happened. I don't think NYers would ignore such a thing though. I don't think they would beat him either. Maybe bikers would, but that's a gross exaggeration.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
36. Thanks, I have no clue WTF that guy was meaning to do. If he thought he could charm or bully me
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 01:30 AM
Mar 2013

into letting him accompany me? Would that work on anyone? Or the slap was the whole idea? It has always puzzled me.
And I had always felt safer in big cities, so the idea of people deliberately looking the other way - well I still find it extremely unnerving.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
101. already answered. and will answer again. hitting another person is wrong and should warrant an
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 10:37 AM
Mar 2013

arrest.

no, it is not uncomfortable. no it is not a hidden topic. no it is not a tough one.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
5. I have never heard or seen a woman slap a man outside the movies. DU Men- is this actually"a thing"
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 12:11 AM
Mar 2013

that you and your friends experience with any frequency? I'm curious- I think my friends would admit it- but who knows?

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
7. I have seen it.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 12:14 AM
Mar 2013

The "slap" as seen in the movies, not so much because it is actually hard to pull off.

But the slap upside the head or on the back, shoulders, legs, sure. I have seen it more times than I can count.

Now try to imagine a man slapping a woman on the head, shoulders, back and legs while feigning anger.

Even if done lightly -with the same power as a woman - I am sure you will agree if you are honest that the reactions would be vastly different.

You REALLY have never seen a woman slap a man in the ways I describe?

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
10. Well, I've slapped many men on the back- while congratulating them. And I have seen a few parents of
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 12:20 AM
Mar 2013

both sexes slapping kids upside the head (but not in many years!). And when we were kids, everyone gave "birthday punches" - which I HATED.

Legs? Really, I'm trying to picture that and the shoulders. Women get mad and hit men in the legs? That's kind of weird.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
11. A hard slap on the thighs? Sure they do.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 12:23 AM
Mar 2013

I don;t think it is that weird. If people are sitting, it is the easiest target and one can do it pretty hard and be sure no permanent damage would result.

Still, the act itself is violent unless of course one has a sexist viewpoint which is more allowing to the women because they are considered too weak to practice violence.

If a man slapped a woman hard on the thighs, it would be pretty much agreed that it was violence.

Women? Not so much. Most would wonder what the man had done to deserve it.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
14. Wow, that is a new one on me. It'll be interesting to read if this has happened to any DUers.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 12:28 AM
Mar 2013

Maybe I've missed this because I tend to stay away from aggressive people.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
35. Likely that men wouldn't admit it often for a couple of reasons.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 01:30 AM
Mar 2013

1. Getting hit by a woman is embarrassing because of sexist attitude

2. Many will assume the man did something to deserve it.

Sound familiar?

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
37. my only assumption is that the person (male or female) who hits is way out of control.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 01:40 AM
Mar 2013

there's just no excuse in my book.

now that you mention it, I do know one man who was slapped- and very publicly.
I know he was absolutely mortified, and that there is no chance he would ever reciprocate the violence.
I also know that no one at all blamed him, because she is known to be a total nutcase and troublemaker when she drinks. (sound familiar?)
If they blame him for anything, it's for not divorcing her.

So you score on point #1. But #2, I can't agree.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
44. True, and I don't think I am in any way your average American woman. I am not nearly as genteel
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 02:13 AM
Mar 2013

as many I have met, but am also very adverse to people raising their voices or displaying aggression.

I have met some otherwise okay (I guess?) people who are fine screaming bloody murder and two minutes later, it's like nothing happened. For them it is, but for me- I feel sick to my stomach. And anyone I knew who does that- learned from a parent. My old boss, just like his Dad. My sister in law- her Mom. That woman would rage and scream like she was being stabbed if she wanted someone to fetch her a donut! And two minutes later, as content as a kitten. No joke. I could never get used to that. But it was their normal routine. Scary what some get acclimated to.

 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
103. aggression? no way.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 10:43 AM
Mar 2013

I did get some good laughs tho.

but yah, lots of men are afraid of aggressive women, that's a given.

Common Sense Party

(14,139 posts)
45. Not in my experience.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 02:53 AM
Mar 2013

I've never seen a man slap a woman, nor a woman slap a man.

It may have something to do with the company I keep, I don't know.

I do know that I am sexist enough that I would treat the situations very differently. If I saw a woman slap a man, I would probably not get involved unless it was a prolonged assault.

If I saw a man slap a woman, I would physically intervene and make that "man" understand, in no uncertain terms, that I do not approve of men hitting women.

I'm sure holding these old-fashioned views will now bring upon me a scolding from the enlightened keepers of the New Gender Morality.

sigmasix

(794 posts)
63. sure
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 04:17 AM
Mar 2013

I've been slapped a few times by women- never pressed charges though I could have-I did stop the relationship and discontinue seeing the abusive women that used physical violence as a tool to get thier way. As a young boy I was raped by a young woman. I've been rape-shamed by several neofeminists, when i share my story. It has been woman-splained to me that the abuses I suffered were meaningless because of the historic disparity between women and men in our culture. It sure FELT like I was being violated and victimized because of my gender. The long-term psychological effects have been pretty shitty as well- but neofeminists insist that men aren't really hurt by women- I guess I deserved it- abusers, rapists and sexists always blame the victim, no matter what the gender of the victimizer is, we should never allow violence to be an accepted response to unhappiness within a relationship or vengeance upon a gender.

In_The_Wind

(72,300 posts)
96. I'm very sorry for the way you have been treated.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 10:19 AM
Mar 2013
abusers, rapists and sexists always blame the victim, no matter what the gender of the victimizer is, we should never allow violence to be an accepted response to unhappiness within a relationship or vengeance upon a gender.


No one deserves to be treated in this manner! Ever!

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
89. Well, I've never been slapped by a woman.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 09:40 AM
Mar 2013

I don't know if it happens or not, but I can imagine that it might from time to time.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
15. The last two sentences of this story did it in.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 12:30 AM
Mar 2013

This is misogyny disguised as "men's rights."

Physical violence is not okay be it against a woman or a man by a woman or a man. There, I conveyed the message of this story without resorting to "men are victims" bullshit.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
105. +1
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 10:45 AM
Mar 2013

If men choose to "take" this violence without reporting it, because they are afraid of being called wusses - who is it they are afraid of, and who is it they are allowing to judge their conduct? The same people they should be looking down on, unless they are misogynists themselves.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
17. I have to admit that I've seen men get slapped before,
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 12:35 AM
Mar 2013

and my first thought was always "what did he say to deserve that?". I know that violence isn't acceptable regardless of the gender of the victim, but I couldn't help my reaction.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
32. You're very honest. More so than others here.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 01:21 AM
Mar 2013

It IS a natural ingrained reaction and becoming aware of it is an important step.

Zoeisright

(8,339 posts)
53. Here's one thing you don't seem to understand, dear.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 03:25 AM
Mar 2013

That face slap is almost always in REACTION to some disgusting thing a MAN does or says. Women don't go around slapping men for the hell of it, like men go around abusing women.

Christ on a crutch.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
55. Yes, the men always deserve it.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 03:28 AM
Mar 2013

"Women don't go around slapping men for the hell of it, like men go around abusing women."

Glad to see that you are unbiased.


Matariki

(18,775 posts)
75. Christ on a crutch this is a dumb post
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 05:08 AM
Mar 2013

Of course there are women who are screwed up and react violently when they get angry.

Your post is pretty disgusting, saying someone deserves to be physically abused for something he 'does or says'. Seriously?

Are you serious or just flaming?

In_The_Wind

(72,300 posts)
102. ^^^
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 10:40 AM
Mar 2013
Of course there are women who are screwed up and react violently when they get angry.



Sad but true. This also goes for men.
fyi: Just so no one gets the wrong idea about what I'm sayin'

dsc

(52,162 posts)
18. It seems to me a simple rule is hands to yourself unless it is conscentual
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 12:36 AM
Mar 2013

I think that should go for either gender.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
19. It's mainly because women aren't physically strong or really violent
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 12:39 AM
Mar 2013
And yet, I have to admit that thinking more about this subject, I can’t help but wonder why we accept women being able to express their emotions with physical violence, if not also why we find it funny in some cases when they do.


Woman slaps are nothing, more shocking than painful. I'm sure you can cite plenty of instances where some psychotic women went too far, but for the most part, they don't try to break bones or severely injure the person.

I'd rather they not go for equality on this, as men tend more toward the broken jaw and internal bleeding type violence. Most of us boys are used to slaps from our mothers when we went too far as children, so slaps from our female partners/spouses are accepted.
 

olddots

(10,237 posts)
22. My daughter slapped me
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 12:41 AM
Mar 2013

She is 28 and probably thought it was okay because she lives in a different world where real life and video are blurred.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
23. Setting aside the issue of fairness or equality...
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 12:42 AM
Mar 2013

From a purely pragmatic standpoint, domestic violence escalates and frequently is only interrupted when she gets injured.

85% of women in violent relationships are themselves physically violent.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/?tool=pubmed

Almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%) of those were reciprocally violent. In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases. Reciprocity was associated with more frequent violence among women, but not men. Regarding injury, men were more likely to inflict injury than were women, and reciprocal intimate partner violence was associated with greater injury than was nonreciprocal intimate partner violence regardless of the gender of the perpetrator


The finding that IPV is more frequently perpetrated by women and is more likely to result in injury when perpetrated in the context of reciprocal IPV can best be understood in the context of a conflict-based theoretical model, which suggests that conflict leads to increasingly coercive interactions that may spiral into violence. For example, suppose partner A shoves partner B and that partner B does not retaliate but instead storms out of the house; the violence may end as nonreciprocal violence with no injury. If Partner B retaliates by slapping or punching partner A, the violence then becomes reciprocal and injury becomes more likely with each escalating blow. This pattern suggests that retaliation may be a primary mechanism for the increased injury associated with reciprocal violence, though we cannot test this hypothesis using this study’s data. An escalation explanation is supported by longitudinal studies that show that violence between relationship partners tends to escalate over time from verbal abuse to physical abuse and that victimization from violence is a strong predictor of perpetration of violence. The escalation of negative, coercive interactions has been central to, and strongly supported in, Patterson’s work, which describes family processes that support the development of aggression, and has been suggested to play a role in dating violence.
 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
27. 15% of violent relationships are nonreciprocal male batterers.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 01:03 AM
Mar 2013

One hopes it will reduce that type of violence.

There's little reason to believe that it will do anything for the other 85% of violent relationships. Among the half of violent relationships that are reciprocal, the harsher sentence given to the men may keep the combatants apart longer... so there's that, I suppose.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
26. I've seen a few face slaps working in the bar.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 12:59 AM
Mar 2013

Most times, nothing but screaming back and forth comes of it and friends jump in to stop it from getting worse. Sometimes though, the man will haul off and slap back. We don't have bouncers .... well, I guess 'we're' the bouncers, so it gets a bit tricky trying to separate this kind of thing. What's really sad, is they're usually married or living together. I always worry about what happens when they get home.

PotatoChip

(3,186 posts)
109. Somewhat off topic, but...
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 01:06 PM
Mar 2013

There was a horrible DV incident at a nearby bar recently. It's kind of a crappy place w/no bouncer. I haven't been there in years, but heard a first-hand account of what happened.

Apparently a guy arrived to find his wife/gf (?) there with a female friend/co-worker. He pulled her out of the place by her hair, then began to viciously assault her in the parking lot. There were at least 5 to 10 other people (mostly men) outside smoking, but not one of them tried to help the female friend/co-worker get the guy off her, despite her begging them to help. Two women from the group of smokers attempted to assist though, while others who had seen what happened in the bar called 911.

The 3 women managed to get the guy off the wife/gf for a few seconds or so, while she and her friend attempted to run to their car... (As and aside, the men watching seemed to think this was funny, but I digress) ... Unfortunately they didn't make it, since the guy broke free and caught up with them more PO'd then ever. What happened next is not totally clear, because it is an unlit parking lot, but the guy managed to smash the woman's face into the car's windshield several times, then somehow, getting ahold of her by the ankles, bashed her head into the pavement repeatedly. The brutal assault ended only when the man heard the sound of the cops coming, and fled on foot.

This happened a couple of weekends ago, but last I heard, the woman is still in the hospital. Why are some men so violent?

Getting back to the OP; I think it's wrong for a woman to slap a man and likewise, for a man to slap a woman. But I've only seen that happen on tv.








hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
28. in movies and TV there is a lot of punching
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 01:04 AM
Mar 2013

Remember the scene in "Mr. Smith goes to Washington" where Smith goes around decking all the members of the press he sees for what they wrote about him? And never once is it suggested he be arrested for assault. Lots of movies are like "Back to the Future" where the problem finally gets resolved by decking the obnoxious bully. I made that comment once when my nieces were watching something like "That's so Raven". I said, on TV, problems are always solved by decking somebody, and right on cue the hero of the show decked the girl who had been harassing her the whole show.

Another thing I noticed with Harry Potter for example and "The Prisoner of Azkhaban" was that the movie seemed to increase the violence of the book, In the book, Hermione slaps Malfoy. In the movie, she punches him. In the movie there is a huge fight between the werewolf and Sirius Black, whereas it had been established that the werewolf was not dangerous to animals. Even the scene where Harry throws snowballs at the bully gang from underneath his invisible cloak was more violent in the movie than in the book, although I have no way to detail that now, since I only have the book and not the DVD.

The movie John Q (spoiler alert) as I have said before, provides a fairly typical Hollywood story. This couple, Mitch and Julie were in the emergency room and upon questioning Mitch is exposed to be an abusive boyfriend. Mitch then attacks John in an attempt to escape and as the gun slides away he calls on Julie to get the gun and shoot John. Instead she picks up the mace, maces Mitch in his bleeding face (John had head-butted him twice). as Mitch screams in pain, she kicks him in the back twice and then kicks him in the crotch.

While everybody laughs. Ha ha, payback is a bear, eh? He got what was coming to him, didn't he? That seems to be the theme of that scene, but it seemed to me that there was something wrong with that. That scene is based on the idea that Mitch DESERVED to get beat up. But, isn't that exactly what the abuser believes - that SOME people deserve to get beat up? That SOME people just "have it coming"? That the whole payback scene just reinforces the idea that some violence is justified.

PDJane

(10,103 posts)
39. I will admit to having actually shoved a man's head through the wall beside my door.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 01:45 AM
Mar 2013

No, I didn't start the argument. It escalated simply because I wouldn't participate. Alcohol was involved, and I wasn't the one drinking it. When he dug his nails into my breast and pulled, I shoved him head-first into the wall and called 911. One of the local constabulary checked him, said in a rather disappointed voice "he's breathing," and hauled him off. It was my residence, and I paid for it; walking out didn't seem like an option at the time.

He didn't get back in. His daughter was removed at a later date, but lived with me for several months, in part because I interrupted a necking session on my bed, which was part of the reason for the argument. I kept her until she reached her majority, and then found somewhere else for her to live.

I wasn't charged, and I don't feel guilty. According to him, I was abusive. I did not hit him before or after that incident. Does that mean that there was reciprocal violence, in spite of it only being that once??

I have scars, both physical and emotional, from that time. One of those scars is the automatic burden of guilt when something goes wrong, and a lot of women have that problem.

I wouldn't be pleased with a woman who slapped a man, in part because it's wrong to resort to violence if it can be avoided, and in part if he doesn't have firm self-control, the reciprocal violence is liable to be dangerous. Is it wrong to have that kind of view? Or is it simply pragmatic.


Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
42. Men write the scripts, men produce the movies.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 01:58 AM
Mar 2013

Very few women supported works ever make it to screen. If women are portrayed as being man slappers, look to men.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
48. This is important.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 03:04 AM
Mar 2013

Because men control almost every aspect if life. Which means that there is no neutral portrayal of women essentially anywhere.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
49. Dear Bonoboo, I am really sorry you've been slappled. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 03:10 AM
Mar 2013

of any gender should abide physical violence.

That you have witnessed men being battered by women is UNACCEPTABLE. And I am totally on your side to create shelters for men who have been abused.

AS A FEMINIST, I worked really hard to ensure that San Francisco's domestic policies are gender neutral.

In order to protect men from, violence initiated by women, I suggest that men create their own safe shelters and safe havens.

I am not being sarcastic or snarky here at all.

Women created, without government help, their own safe spaces. Their own shelters. Their own safe haven from their abusers.

If any men's group want to create their own shelter, I would do their bookkeeping for free.


Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
62. i'm sorry. I thought you had. But I am totally supportive of men creating
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 04:13 AM
Mar 2013

shelters for men who have been slapped. Please PM me.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
64. I was inspired to write this OP because of the "benevolent sexism" threads.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 04:31 AM
Mar 2013

Rather than an issue of men being victims, I think this attitude of allowing women to slap and hit is indicative of the double standard that enables sexism against women.

Women, as long as they are coddled, will continue to be able to be looked down on as weak.

Along with the elimination of the attitude that women can't do things for themselves such as fix shelves, change tires or open doors, we perhaps also need to rid ourselves of the attitude that they do not commit violence when they hit.

So, it is not really an issue of the violence I am discussing. Rather it is an issue of the underlying view of women that is helping to keep them down.

Call it 'deconstruction'.

Zoeisright

(8,339 posts)
52. Oh yeah, that's the SAME thing as a beating.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 03:24 AM
Mar 2013

And rape, and institutionalized sexism. For fuck's sake.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
56. Never said it was.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 03:29 AM
Mar 2013

But if a man slaps a woman with the same degree of force that a woman slaps a man, it is treated very differently.

If benevolent sexism is an issue because it implies women are weak, isn't this the same?

Don't bother to answer. I know you cannot see beyonf your own bias.

Silent3

(15,219 posts)
88. A man slapping a woman is treated as nearly the same thing...
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 09:36 AM
Mar 2013

...as a beating or a rape, or at least a slippery slope leading there, and it's treated as an example and a manifestation of institutionalized sexism.

Whereas when a woman slaps a man, that act gets to be just a woman slapping a man.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
57. yeah, hitting people sucks. duh. But trying to compare as YOU often do
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 03:39 AM
Mar 2013

violence against women by men and violence against men by women, as problems of equal stature is bullshit. More of the ugly sexist men's movement crap.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
59. I never did that, so you should have stopped at your first sentence.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 04:00 AM
Mar 2013

Is it even possible to talk about things without being accused of conflating the two (which I did not do)?

Response to Bonobo (Reply #59)

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
82. My apologies
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 06:28 AM
Mar 2013

Honestly, I would never insist that the two are comparable and I don't think they are.

But I do think there is room to discuss one without being accused of doing that.

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
60. Short answer...
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 04:01 AM
Mar 2013

Women are not men. When a woman slaps or punchs a guy he might get a bruise. When a man hits a women she gets demolished. That's why we pass special laws about violence against women. It's why we do that whole chivalry thing that we sometimes get criticized for. Whatever.

In any case, respectfully, there is no point in bringing this up. Women are fighting an uphill battle against misogyny and patriarchy, and if they are sometimes guilty of a little friendly fire, that's only because there are so many legitimate targets to shoot at. They need allies, not critics.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
61. The issue goes hand in hand with "benevolent sexism".
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 04:10 AM
Mar 2013

There is a relationship between this coddling of women and condescending to them as if they were weaklings with no control over their actions and the issue of "benevolent sexism" as well as this issue.

Stop treating them as if they can't open doors or fix tires and stop treating them as if they can't wallop a man.

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
67. I am familiar with the ongoing discussions that inspired this thread...
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 04:42 AM
Mar 2013

As shiny as it is, I am not interested in following the lure you are dangling in this response, and will stick with the pragmatic answer I have already given.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
65. Oh FFS. Nice answer. Violence is not justified, period.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 04:33 AM
Mar 2013

How hard is that to say?

Instead of saying "gee, you know, men really suck, so if a few get slapped for no reason, well, tough shit".

It shouldn't be normalized, any more than "Bang, Alice, Straight to the moon" should have been normalized. 60 years ago people thought that line was funny stuff. Now it is wince-worthy.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
76. honestly, it sounds better.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 05:09 AM
Mar 2013

I'm not one of the people who believes domestic violence is anything like an equivalence situation, either. I personally believe it is mostly (albeit not exclusively) a male-on-female problem, certainly in terms of where the real damage is done. And I think the law can and should recognize that. Others may disagree with me, but that's how I feel.

But I also think it's easier to be consistent and say, no, hitting isn't cute or funny or okay. No matter who it's aimed at.

It's like with kids and spanking; there is more moral authority to the message "don't hit" if parents aren't hitting the kids (or each other) themselves.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
66. I don't think it happens all that much in reality. It's a comedic shorthand (excuse the pun)
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 04:38 AM
Mar 2013

albeit a lame one.

Like, the sequence in Groundhog Day, where Bill Murray's successive attempts to woo Andy MacDowell (he can do better, I still say!) result in a series of repeat face-slaps:



An excellent movie, for the most part. But the face slap is a cliche, and one that looks increasingly dated. For good reason.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
68. Hmmm, well the data on domestic abuse suggests there is more on the part of women.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 04:44 AM
Mar 2013

And when it is brought up, we usually hear that they are just slaps or the like.

The available data that reports more women engaging (in strict numbers) than men.

So although the proverbial drink-in-the-face followed by a slap cliche may be just that, clearly there is a shitload of hitting going on.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
70. I don't rightfully know other than what I've seen and experienced.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 04:47 AM
Mar 2013

I am fortunate to have only that anecdotal experience to draw upon.

I've been hit on, but never to my recollection hit. And the only thing I ever hit was a bong, in college.

Matariki

(18,775 posts)
71. If your partner slaps you, you are NOT in a healthy relationship
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 04:54 AM
Mar 2013

or in a relationship with a healthy person, no matter the sex. You're in a relationship with a person who thinks that violence is acceptable when they're angry. It's a very very good sign that the violence will escalate. If your partner slaps you, you need to get out of the relationship immediately, or insist that they get counseling and that if it EVER happens again the relationship is over, no question.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
72. I'm not sure counseling could overcome being slapped by a partner to be honest.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 04:56 AM
Mar 2013

Once that trust is shattered, it's difficult if not impossible to ever get back. And for good reason.

My suggestion to all of my friends is that if a partner ever hits you, leave immediately. There is no going back.

Matariki

(18,775 posts)
74. You misread my post
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 05:02 AM
Mar 2013

I said the person with the anger management problem needs the counseling.

I think you are mostly right. Leaving is usually the best and smartest option. But you know, usually there are all sorts of tell-tale signs preceding physical violence and both people are usually mired in their own psychological and emotional issues that keep them in an unhealthy relationship. Or make their relationships unhealthy. Sometimes those people actually do love each other and counselling can work. Not often, but sometimes.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
79. Ah alright sorry. Yeah I guess I just could never picture staying with someone who hit me.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 05:15 AM
Mar 2013

I remember the first and really only time my step-father got violent with me in my mid teens and our relationship has never been the same.

I've always been of the opinion that physical violence is just on another level. Crossing that barrier means that irreparable damage has been done. But, forgiveness is a powerful thing. I've never been good at it though.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
80. On the one hand
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 05:15 AM
Mar 2013

The number of times I have seen a woman hit someone hard enough to hurt them is rare, and I come from a family of VERY formidable women.

However, we should not confuse this with violence against children (like the Texas mon that killed her kids) or, now that gun culture is so rich, outright attempts to harm/kill.

raccoon

(31,111 posts)
83. Bonobo, I started a thread about this some years ago. In films and on TV,
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 06:39 AM
Mar 2013

yes, numerous times in both films and TV shows, the woman slaps the man and he NEVER slaps her back.

I maintained then, and I do now, that this is the MOVIES--not real life at all.

In RL, I think most of the time, the man would hit her back. And I think anyone who thinks otherwise is from another planet.

This is another ridiculous "Movie myth"--same as the heroes of the movie always find a parking place
right in front of wherever they need to go.


Silent3

(15,219 posts)
85. When a woman is violent with a man, it's treated as in independent incident...
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 06:47 AM
Mar 2013

...and often excused, no matter the particular circumstances, because the "traditional" underdog is rising up against the traditional oppressor.

When a man is violent with a woman, it's treated as all men being violent against all women. The act is scorned and condemned, no matter the particular circumstances, as part of an ongoing, systematic repression.

While I understand these reactions, let's not fool ourselves that this isn't a form of sexism.

MadrasT

(7,237 posts)
87. I don't think people should hit other people.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 08:37 AM
Mar 2013

Last edited Sat Mar 16, 2013, 10:30 AM - Edit history (1)

I just finished watching all 9 seasons of All in the Family on DVD. There are numerous scenes where Gloria gets worked up and smacks or pinches Archie or Mike and the audience bursts into laughter. It isn't funny to me and I don't like other similar depictions of it on TV and in movies.

I have never seen anyone get hit in real life* (except myself, I got slapped across the face by a boyfriend a couple times years ago).

From that experience, I can tell you that my upset did not come from the pain of the (fairly mild) slap across the face. My upset came from knowing that he was willing to cross the line into physical violence, and being 6'1" and outweighing me by 100 lbs, he could KILL me if he chose to take the physical violence up a notch.

Of course, that was his "message" when he did it.

A woman slapping a man doesn't come with the delivery of that extra "message": "Fall into line or I will seriously hurt or kill you."

People shouldn't hit other people anyway.

It isn't funny.



*Edit to add... there was that one time my husband slugged the neighbor guy... or the neighbor guy slugged him... over some stupid neighbor dispute... I can't remember, but they both seemed to know instantly after the first punch that shouldn't have happened and it didn't escalate. Other than the incidents I described here, I am just not around people who think physical violence is ever OK.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
92. men could slap women in movies under certain circumstances not that long ago
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 09:56 AM
Mar 2013

granted, reagan is playing a vilain here but that isn't the case with sean connery and roger moore




Recursion

(56,582 posts)
98. IIRC Aristotle mentions this in the poetics
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 10:28 AM
Mar 2013

A woman hitting a man is "comic" in his view because it's an inversion of power, which comedy relies on. That's why it's Aegisthus rather than Clytemnaestra who kills Agammemnon, because it's a tragedy.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
104. Does anyone really do this except on soap operas?
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 10:43 AM
Mar 2013

And by the way, it is illegal. It's a man's macho problem if he refuses to press charges.

I was watching a soap opera that had a girl bullying a boy, and part of the problem is, of course, he can't beat her up. But she hit him, and he could report that.

Men are not victims here so much as they allow themselves to be, by the very same issue - sexism, which shows it can apply to their detriment as well. If a women commits an offensive touching or assault against a man, it is just as illegal as the reverse.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
107. I am more shocked by adult doctors slapping newborn children on the buttocks
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 10:48 AM
Mar 2013

purportedly to get them to breathe. We have all seen this happen in the media, even though I have never seen it happen. Nevertheless, I feel victimized by it. (Sarcasm for the inevitable alert)

liberal_at_heart

(12,081 posts)
111. I was slapped in the face once as a child from a woman who was caring for me
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 05:08 PM
Mar 2013

It is demeaning and abusive and should never be accepted. There is no excusing it or justifying it.

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