Burning The US Flag Is Akin to Displaying the Confederate Flag

[Yavin4]

Do you have a constitutional right to do both? Absolutely you do. Doing either is a legal form of self expression.

Also, by doing either, you are deliberately antagonizing your average, every day fellow American. The top 1% doesn't care if you do either, but the people you need on your side as you fight economic survival do care, and they are put off by either display.

[izquierdista]

1. How about we burn the Confederate flags?

But not in South Carolina, it's against the law there.

[TheWraith]

55. Sounds like fun. I'm in.

That's a flag which deserves to have it's supporters insulted and offended.

[Lionessa]

2. I disagree. Considering what USA actually seems to stand for these days...

displaying the USA flag is akin to displaying the Confederate flag.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

3. How about revering the flag for what it OUGHT to represent?

Yeah, people do bad things but its higher ideals we should all work for in common. There are plenty of good, honest, decent Christians on this forum. Just because I'm an atheist and I see the jackassery of some hate-mongers who call themselves Christians does not mean I will allow the jackasses to color my view of my friends here. I will not insult my friends like that because -- you know -- they're my friends. I like my Christian friends and the ideals they aspire to make them great friends to have.

[renie408]

4. Thank you. I am an atheist and think that religion has a lot to answer for. I don't burn Bibles. n/t

[Lionessa]

8. Not the same, yet.

First of all, I would think nothing of seeing a bible, koran, torah burned. Wouldn't waste my time acquiring one to burn it myself. Additionally a bible is more akin to burning the constitution or the bill of rights, a flag is more akin to ripping a God Loves You bumper sticker off a car.

Secondly and more directly related to my sub-title. Christians don't quite YET run this country, so a representation of their religion doesn't equate to 100% responsibility for the fixes we are in. The gov't through it's corruption, inaction, and inhumanity is responsible for the fixes we are in. Therefore burning a symbol that represents the gov't makes sense.

[renie408]

18. Ok, so YOU don't care.

I think the point was that there are people who do care, care for good reasons and are revolted by those kinds of displays. There are a lot of things that I couldn't give two shits about; the flag and a Bible being among them. But that doesn't mean that I would recklessly offend the vast majority of people that DO care by making some statement that most likely the people I am making the statement TO won't get. If the goal is to represent the 99%, then making a statement by burning a flag (which is going to repulse most of that 99%) doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. It might feel good in the over-heated moment, but it is going to move things backwards rather than forwards.

Or it was a plot by infiltrators and therefore did what it was supposed to do. I can't keep all of that straight. But the idea is that good people take the feelings of others into consideration. YOUR personal feelings are not really that important when interacting in society. It is no, in fact, all about you.

BTW...that's how I raised those good kids.

[Lionessa]

24. Boo hoo, feelers get hurt. Please assimilate all you desire. I shall not.

I will not equate people's feelers getting hurt with the real pain, despair, and fear that so many are experiencing regarding their lives, their livelihoods, their health, and homes that the burning flag represents, in order to not offend the sensibilities of people who are insulated from our national realities.

[renie408]

30. And what, exactly, does burning a flag do to help all those people?

Since your noble concern is the plight of the downtrodden, can you explain how alienating whole swaths of people in the middle benefits aforementioned downtrodden?

[Lionessa]

39. Please read about civil rights movements. The class you ask me to teach you can't be done here.

[renie408]

44. That answers the question about whether or not you can have a discussion without being insulting.

And AWESOME deflection, BTW. You have handily NOT responded to anything that has been asked of you by using insults and arrogance. Curious...does that make you feel better about yourself or something? Feeling like the superior person, eh?

Me, too.

[Whisp]

82. that one sure is a know it all today

and with such charm

[Lionessa]

5. Or how about we use burning it to represent our dissatisfaction that it doesn't represent what it

ought to?

That makes a lot more sense than adding more mythology to one's ethos. We as humans need to really start dealing with reality instead of hopes, dreams, should have's, and ought to's.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

7. Yeah, except it won't work that way.

Mr and Mrs Middle America will only see pics on Facebook with no commentary or context except the poster's own biases.

[Lionessa]

10. So you say, I'm certainly not hearing anyone say anything except

that OPD's response to flag burning was outrageous, but I don't worry about what wingers think, and I'm guessing you must be worried about them.

[renie408]

21. You are wrong if you think 'wingers' are the only people who care about flag burning.

And it is a mistake to casually dismiss large chunks of the country because they disagree with you about such things. It would be, in fact, a big mistake made by the 'other side' all the time.

It is wrong, just plain WRONG dismiss the feelings of others. You don't have to cater to them, but stomping all over them does nothing but make someone look like a petulant child. We will get nowhere if we don't start making some effort to understand WHY people feel the way they do.

[Lionessa]

27. I don't see it as dismissal as much as an intentional in your face,

please pull your heads out of butts and pay attention to what USA is really representative of these days!

There is no "right" or "wrong" in this situation, no "good' or "evil", just those that want to speak out, and those that don't want to hear so they worry instead about the manners involved instead of the message.

[renie408]

33. Can you have a straight discussion about this without insulting the person you are talking to?

Do you REALLY think that I am more concerned with manners than with the situation most of us find ourselves in? Or could it possibly be that I think that the best way to help the 99% isn't to alienate most of them? There are good people out there who are willing to identify with that message you are so primarily concerned about who will be turned off by flag burning. It would appear to me that you are so invested in defending the message that you have forgotten what the message is about...it's about PEOPLE. Yeah, those people that you SAY you are championing.

Why is it so hard to acknowledge that flag burning isn't a brilliant idea if you are trying to increase momentum for a popular movement?

[Lionessa]

37. No, not really because you are becoming responsible for grandizing idea that it's offensive

by constantly attempting to justify that foolishness. Supporting a fool's POV sort of paints you with that color. Your choice.

[renie408]

45. *sigh*

And once again, you are just insulting; not responding. The ability to insult others does not make YOU smarter or better; it just means that you are someone who cannot defend their argument any other way and who feels threatened when confronted. You feel the need to insult others to make yourself feel better about your position. Which you apparently cannot defend. The thing is, you might be making YOU feel better by being icky, but you are not really bothering me at all. The first rule of argument is that when they start going after you personally or insulting you, you must be winning.

BTW...what is the definition of 'grandize'?? I am familiar with 'aggrandize', but not 'grandize'.

[Whisp]

83. it's that effective 'Newt' style of debate that is becoming so popular

baffle them with bullshit and yell it out loud to make your point even, erm, pointier but essentially with no point other than to berate.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

48. Or

maybe I'm worried about independents, moderates, middle-roaders, fence-sitters, undecideds and the sort.

Us/Them mentalities always seem so -- stunted.

[Lionessa]

50. I can agree and understand your POV here, but

I prefer not to dumb down to their level. I think there's something to be said for the idea that it is the dumbing down of USA that has contributed greatly to the circumstances we are in, so I won't be party to continuing it.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

51. Flag burning seems pretty dumb if it destroys OWS larger message

Its SUPPOSED to be about rights, equality, opportunity, fairness, etc. Not pissing off middle America. If you succeed in the latter at the expense of the former you lose. There are no opportunities for nuance in the information society.

[Lionessa]

52. Except for folks like you promoting that concept, I don't think it does

nearly to the extent that y'all are trying to present. If it was that onerous to most, it wouldn't be legal now.

[whatchamacallit]

61. +1

[hack89]

58. So by burning an American flag OWS has elevated the conversation? Really? nt

[Lionessa]

60. Not being cowed into revering a piece of fabric that represents a regime elevates the conversation.

[hack89]

75. So OWS is taking the moral superiority route?

a step above the common 99 percenter sheeple and their flag fetish? Ok - that's one way to grow the movement I guess.

[Lionessa]

77. I have no doubt that never crossed their minds, however

folks like you are clearly taking the morally inferior route of defending nonsense in the aftermath.

[hack89]

79. I don't think it crossed their minds either - because they are fucking clueless

what good do you think came out of this?

I agree that burning flags is a Constitutionally protected act - but how exactly is this suppose to help OWS?

[Lionessa]

81. Counter question. How is your outrage supposed to help?

Your promotion of this ridiculous outrage is more suspect than their burning of the flag.

[hack89]

84. How does OWS grow if it pisses off potential supporters?

Seriously - please explain to me how this is good for OWS.

[Lionessa]

85. It allows intelligent folks the opportunity to explain to their family and peers why

burning the flag in relation to the Occupy movement is appropriate.

[hack89]

86. So what does burning a flag represent to OWS? What is the message I am suppose to get? nt

[Lionessa]

92. America is broken, breaking, falling, no longer worthy of the respect it demands.

[hack89]

97. So OWS, in demanding respect

pisses on the beliefs of millions in a petty and spiteful manner. And are surprised when no-one pays them the respect they feel is due to them. Karma is a bitch.

[Lionessa]

101. I don't recall "respect" being any part of their consideration, though

usually it does seem as though non-violence is, and they seem to toe that line pretty well and did so in the flag burning as well. Blacks didn't have "respect" of the masses, but still we demanded rights for them, same for women, now we must do it for the middle and lower classes, regardless of the "respect" of the masses.

[hack89]

102. If people don't respect OWS why would they consider supporting them? nt

[Lionessa]

103. After hours of trying to help you out of yours and others'

insistent circle-jerk, I've had enough. Enjoy whatever ignorance you may have, I hear it's bliss. If you're not ignorant and are just being obtuse, well, you're only helping stoke an unnecessary and unhelpful right wing meme. Either way, enough.

[hack89]

104. A sense of moral and intellectual superiority is what every successful social movement is built on

good luck!

[ZombieHorde]

87. Ought to represent to whom?

Aren't flags ultimately meaningless symbols since they're extremely subjective?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

88. One could ask the same of the ill-defined OWS

If it means whatever to whomever does it really mean anything at all?

[ZombieHorde]

91. Of course OWS is meaningless.

It has many intents, but no meaning.

[jberryhill]

6. Because, yeah, the civil liberties situation in 1861 was SO much the same as now

Last edited Wed Feb 1, 2012, 11:29 AM - Edit history (3)

Or maybe it was better back when white men could own slaves and women couldn't vote.

Nope... can't see a bit of improvement. Must be the same or worse than in the Confederate states.

[Lionessa]

12. Yep, instead of just blacks, slaves, and women, the attempt is to now

make 99% of all Americans irrelevant, in great USA tradition, regardless of race, creed,......

How is that any better?

The will of the few making indentured servants of us all and reducing USA to third world status.

[jberryhill]

14. Just tell me which year in US history you like

I don't believe things were better when the owners of New England textile mills made fortunes off of the backs of children. There was astounding disparity in the Gilded Age on through the Depression.

There has never been a "perfect" time in American history, but I do believe that the overall trend has always been in the direction of progress.

If some of the "the US has gone down the toilet" crowd were alive when the government would literally pick your unwilling ass off the street and send you to fight in Vietnam, those folks would fly completely off the freaking handle.

There is always going to be something that needs to be fixed, and there always will be.

[Lionessa]

15. The trend for the past 30 years has not been positive.

So sorry you can't grasp what I'm saying. And judging by your responses, you don't even grasp the realities facing so many today, again regardless of race or gender, though stats do show that race and gender are still heavily effecting one's chances of survival here in the USA.

[jberryhill]

16. Ah... another thread about how stupid I am

Yes, everyone who doesn't see things your way is just mentally challenged.

I'm sorry you long to return to the Bush and Reagan administrations.

[Lionessa]

19. Sorry, but trends aren't opinions. From Reagan to current, the trend is to

screw the lower classes. Why would I or anyone who is accurately looking at the trend for the past 30 years want to return to the beginning of that trend?

I'm not thinking you're stupid, more like you're just being intentionally obtuse.

[jberryhill]

25. Your proposition is that the confederacy was just as good

Or have you forgotten what you said just a few posts above.

Widening disparity and the loss of income of working people is certainly something that needs to be turned around.

But you assert that conditions are indistinguishable from the Confederacy and you call ME obtuse?

Who took your slaves?

"Considering what USA actually seems to stand for these days...

displaying the USA flag is akin to displaying the Confederate flag."

That is high grade bullshit.

Moreover, you back it up with what conditions are as opposed to what this country "stands for".

You don't see a difference between what the US "stands for" and what the Confederacy "stands for". And I'm "obtuse". Yah.

[Lionessa]

32. Good is not anything related to what I said.

I said we are heading into something equally bad and even worse in that we will all be living in a non-racial, non-gender, two class system... owners (10%) and slaves (90%). Therefore both flags are soon to represent the same concepts of unfair labor practice by way of slaves.

So let's see, first you're intentionally obtuse, now you're throwing strawmen around. Are you sure you're not.......

[jberryhill]

35. "I said we are heading into something equally bad"

No, you made a statement of present conditions - "actually seems to stand for".

You did not say, "will stand for at some time in the future".

If you want to say that displaying a Confederate flag is "akin to" the US flag in support of your apocalyptic vision, then you may want to consider verbs and their tenses.

[Lionessa]

38. OMG, you are not worth it.

One last time,

The current situation and policies are firmly upon the path of being equally bad. I for one don't think waiting for it to be totally and completely equally bad is a wise choice, clearly you do.

[jberryhill]

40. Alienating others is not going to change that course

[Cherchez la Femme]

94. The poor, and women's

civil rights have become as virtually disparaged and are given as little concern as that of which as slaves used to get.

Perhaps worse, there at least was a civil war to free the slaves
while there is more and more legislation impinging upon women and the poor's civil rights -- from all 3 branches of government, no less.

[Whisp]

76. explain 'these days', please.

[Lionessa]

78. Really??? You're that ignorant? You can't fathom what "these days" mean in the context of

these protests.

Sorry, you're way too far behind for me waste time on.

[Whisp]

80. let's not get all prickly now.

it's only the internet.

[unionworks]

9. Flag burning threads

...seem to be popping up like weeds all over DU. Strange how the actions of a handful of people can hijackthe entire message of a movement. Or not so strange if you remember what the OPD along with the FBI. did to the Black Panthers in Oakland. Quite probably there are some old farts on the Oakland City council who remember the good old days, are the ones actually controlling the OPD instead of the mayor, and are wringing their hands in gleeful anticipation of the first dead protesters. OPD needs to be put under federal control immediately to prevent this.

[mkultra]

11. Burning the American flag isnt respresentative of racism

Displaying the confederate flag is so boo fucking hoo.

[Yavin4]

13. You Missed The Point Entirely

Both acts antagonize people. And if you want your movement to reach out to people and recruit them to your side, don't antagonize people.

[Lionessa]

17. Really, and just out of curiosity you know this how?

You've recruited how many to what causes?

Seems to me that the Republicans antagonize their non-1% supporters all the time, but even those in the bottom 5% still seem to remain rabidly attached to the party of pro-lies, oops, I meant pro-life, because of some evil god-daddy that's going to punish them (as though their subsistence life isn't punishment already) if they don't vote for embryos via Republicans.

Which brings us to religion which uses antagonism as well, successfully.

[Douglas Carpenter]

31. it's CRAZY to suggest that burning the U.S. flag doesn't alienate the vast majority of working class

Americans. To deny this is to truly live in crazy land. This has nothing to do with whether or not one agrees or disagrees with the emotions elicited by the American flag or agrees or disagrees with the symbolism of burning or desecrating the American flag. Personally, I don't relate to nationalist emotions very much myself. But that is beside the point. There is not even one single rational person who has any knowledge whatsoever of the popular feelings of the vast overwhelming majority of working class Americans who is not aware that most Americans - the overwhelming majority of working class Americans - would take deep offense at any intentional disrespect to the American flag - and would be greatly turned against those who associated with any desecration of the American flag. Not even one single person living the world of reality would ever claim otherwise - not a single one..

[Lionessa]

34. Since I see many here claiming it, I think you're potentially incorrect.

However, neither of us can speak for a whole, we can only really speak for ourselves.

Clearly it offends you. It doesn't offend me. Apparently it offends some you know, it doesn't offend anyone I know. Apparently you feel it should continue to be justified as a reason to ignore the wider issues of OWS because you keep repeating the talking points of the 1% (diss OWS at all costs), rather than altering your opinion and then helping spread the word that flag burning is reasonable and relate-able under the circumstances. I disagree with your tactic but I'm a 99% and look forward to continuing to explain to anyone that the burning of the flag was entirely appropriate to the message of OWS and it's concern about where we are headed as a country, who we've become as a nation.

[Douglas Carpenter]

111. I 100% support OWS and consider it the most promissing social movement in a at least a generation

I have defended it and will continue to defend it enthusiastically. You cannot find a single post of mine that does not speak of the OWS movement in glowing terms. You cannot find a single post of mine in which I don't vigorously defend the OWS from all attacks and criticism. I certainly don't blame the action of a few idiots or perhaps in this case agent provocateurs - I don't know which. But obviously they are working hard to harm the movement and alienate the movement from working class Americans.. I find it implausible that they don’t know that. It would be a tragedy if a few individuals who don't know working class America and hold working class Americans in such contempt succeed in this agenda of alienating the movement from the people. Perhaps they are just arrogant and don't understand the country and the people or perhaps they in reality are working to undermine the movement intentionally. I will defend the OWS from all of its enemies including these arrogant provacateurs - regardless who they think they are working for.

[whatchamacallit]

63. Speaking from the reality

of a working class american who wasn't offended, your pronouncement falls flat.

[Douglas Carpenter]

110. it's not a matter of whether it offends me or not - it offends almost all working class Americans

Last edited Wed Feb 1, 2012, 07:22 PM - Edit history (1)

Everyone who has or has ever had any dealings with working class Americans knows this. To deny this is to live in utter unreality. It is obvious that some people here think of the working class as some sort of abstract concept - not something that actually exist. For those I would suggest that they do a little field trip to their local equivalent of "Joe's Bar and Grill" or perhaps their neighborhood beauty salon or maybe the nearest Woolworth's and stike up a conversation with the folks there and ask the folks there what they think about burning the American flag.

[mkultra]

116. we are working class americans and it doesnt offend us

It only offends jingoistic patriotic group thinkers.

[Douglas Carpenter]

117. everyone who has any exposure to working class Americans knows very well that the

Last edited Fri Feb 3, 2012, 06:24 PM - Edit history (1)

overwhelming majority of working class Americans are deeply offended by burning the American flag or intentionally disrepecting the American flag. I am neutral on matters of religion and nationalism. I don't have much feelings either way. But it is simply impossible to have any exposure to working class America and not knows this. There is no disagreement about this among those of us who have experience with working class America. None - we already know this. We are all in agreement that this is the sentiment by almost all working class Americans. It goes without saying. Perhaps you could argue that the overwhelming majority of working class Americans are jinoistic group thinkers. Maybe they are. But you are not going to advance a message about anything by dismissiing the patriotic emotions held by the vast majority of working class Americans.

[ProfessorGAC]

62. Look Up The Name Rick Monday

He played major league baseball for more than decade. He's known, however, for one thing.

He was considered a hero because he stopped two guys from burning a flag in Dodger Stadium. He was nearly universal hailed as a patriot.

Do you really believe that the 99% you worry about are all jingoistic, flag waving buffoons? If you look up his bio on Wiki, you'll see.

The notion of burning a flag is offensive to those to whom the issue at hand is not within the perspective. This action is likely, based upon the recent history of this very country, to change the perspective of those who weren't paying attention to one of disdain if not revulsion.

It has NOTHING to do with whether anybody on this thread gets the point. Because what you're discussing is merely tangential to the point of the OP. It has everything to do with whether this action does more harm than good. And, if you look up the name i suggested, i would hope that you see exactly what the likely reaction to flag burning may be.

And, by the way: I couldn't care less about the flag. I have NEVER flown the flag on my house at any time since i moved into my own place; and i'm 55.
GAC

[Lionessa]

64. Harm vs good can only be determined in hindsight, which we have not enough of regarding

this particular incident. So long as folks like you try to justify and defend such ignorance, such ignorance will continue to permeate. In the current situation in the USA, flag burning is entirely appropriate, and I will not bow to the ignorant.

[mkultra]

20. I was actually pointing out that it was YOU, sir that are missing the point

They are not the same. Burning the US flag is pure expression and can mean many things. Displaying the confederate flag is a disregard for constitutionalism and democracy buoyed by racist undertones. The only thing the same about them is that they are both flags. Only one is the US flag.

Burning your own flag and displaying the flag of another country are two very different things.

Burning the us flag is not done for recruitment purposes.

[Yavin4]

46. And Confederate Flag Wavers Say The Same Thing

It's their "pure expression".

[Cherchez la Femme]

96. And what are these expressions?

Unhappiness with policy for one, which We the People are supposed to have a say over;
and slavery for the other.

Yeah, those sure are commensurate

[nobodyspecial]

26. Well, if they don't understand what a perfect political statement flag burning really is

we don't need them on our side anyway. Any person who criticizes something we do is ignorant, in favor of police brutality and a fascist tool. You can't possibly support the overarching goals of OWS and not be in favor of provoking police confrontations, vandalizing property and fighting to permanently camp in public park. All or nothing, baby! At least that's what I've been told here.

[Goblinmonger]

28. But they antagonize for different reasons.

One because it is fucking racist.

The other because people think too highly of a piece of cloth.

That you would put them both on the same level, is, frankly a little sad.

[Yavin4]

69. In the End, They Both Antagonize

Whether you agree with their reasons or not.

[Goblinmonger]

72. So racism is on the same level as protest.

THAT is what you are trying to say?

[Cali_Democrat]

22. Pearl clutchers are amusing. n/t

[Union Scribe]

73. In small doses. Beyond that

all the moans of swooning get so loud they drown out all the reasonable voices.

[xchrom]

23. ...

[Romulox]

29. No. No it's not. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. The Reason Burning The Flag Is Dumb Is Because You Are Alienating The Very People You Want To Reach

Flying the Confederate flag is dumb, insensitive, and offensive in and of itself.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. Or, akin to burning the confederate flag or Jeff Davis' underwear.

The 99% isn't a homogeneous group of conformists who all get tingly when "God Bless America" is sung or the flag is waved. Some who miss the symbolism of burning the flag as a protest against what this country, as an oligarchy, has become may get upset. Others will understand that burning the symbol of a nation gone rogue is appropriate.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. You Are Attributing A Level Of Political Sophistication To The Average American That Never Existed

.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

54. They're not going to get "sophisticated" by playing to their fears of not conforming.

It's like saying gays should stay in the closet because of the "offense" factor of saying their gay. Or, women shouldn't have abortions because the public may get offended.

Putting the flag up as something sacred and beyond controversy as symbol just perpetuates the ignorance.

[Yavin4]

68. You're Making a False Analogy

The purpose of the OWS movement is to build support among the masses regarding economic inequality, and for that cause, the movement needs all the support it can get. Engaging in antagonistic acts like flag burning hurts the cause.

Fighting for the rights of gays and for a woman's right to choose are two entirely different, unrelated causes.

[Goblinmonger]

74. I think the purpose of OWS is to get people pissed

at what the current situation is like. It's not about holding hands and singing. It is about being pissed.

[treestar]

43. I agree, there is an absolute right to DO it

(apart from burning laws and ordinances) but that does not mean we have to think that the message thereby made is a great one.

Vietnam War protestors of the draft and war - OK. But I'd draw the line somewhere, and doing it today does not meet rational standards.

[Yavin4]

49. Thanks. Both Acts Are Meant to Provoke and Antagonize Your Fellow Man.

And the 1% loves it when the masses antagonize and provoke each other instead of targeting them.

[Zoeisright]

47. Rubbish.

The Confederate flag is a symbol of racism, hatred, and mass murder. Displaying it shows you are either a bigot or do not understand the history of this country. Or both.

Burning the American flag is a symbol of protest, protected by the US Constitution.

Christ.

[renie408]

53. I agree. But then I also agree with the OP...

I think the point he is trying to make is that both are big FU's to people who feel other than you do. Displaying the Confederate flag is a big FU to liberals. I think there is definitely a racial component, but the Confederate flag has basically turned into giving liberals the middle finger where we are. Burning the American flag is designed to say FU to the establishment and those that represent the establishment.

The problem is that saying FU to people does not really incline them to listen to the other stuff you have to say. While most people I interact with on a daily basis have no problem with the Occupy movement peacefully doing their thing and there are even some that surprise me by being sympathetic to the cause, they are going to be put off by burning the American flag.

[Neoma]

56. They're going to be put off by

getting the shit beat out of them too.

[Yavin4]

67. Thank You. Provoking and Antagonizing Your Fellow Man...

does not bring them to your cause, and it serves the interest of the 1%. The 1% wins because they divide the masses.

[LanternWaste]

57. I imagine many of us concern ourselves more with...

I imagine many of us concern ourselves more with branding and how others may perceive us than with the strength of our own personal convictions.

And of course, it's completely your right to give priority to one over the other-- as you said, a legal form of self-expression.

I'd hazard we also posses the ethical, if not physical right to judge and lecture others when they do not place the same priorities on the same freedoms and in the same format we may (often dramatically referred to as "pushing your religion/philosophy/politics down my throat..&quot

[morningfog]

59. No, one is a symbol of racism and hate. The other is an act of speech

that conveys the anger and frustration of the individual burning a symbol.

[Yavin4]

65. And The Confederate Flag Defender Would Say That...

their flag is a symbol of freedom and that burning the American flag is a symbol of hatred for America.

Bottom line is that BOTH antagonize and provoke anger in your fellow man, and that's not subject to opinion or interpretation.

[morningfog]

66. I concede that point. That is why symbols are powerful and why they are used.

Burning a flag promotes passionate discussion. I think that is healthy. A burning flag, though, does not stand historically for opporession of a race. Therein lies a distinction.

[LanternWaste]

70. what then is the precise form of protest which will not antagonize and provoke anger in anyone?

It seems to beg the question, what then is the precise form of protest which will not antagonize and provoke anger in anyone?

[Yavin4]

98. The Point of a Popular Protest Is To Influence Popular Opinion

To rally the masses, including the military and the police, to your side against the powerful and the corrupt.

[LanternWaste]

105. Again, what is the precise and relevant form of protest

Again, what is the precise and relevant form of protest that will not piss off anyone?

[Yavin4]

114. Protests Are Designed to Piss Off The Powerful and The Corrupt

Not your fellow man.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

71. i dont agree with the first part of your argument, but do agree with the second part

[Cherchez la Femme]

89. Are you shitting me?

Symbolically showing one's angst with these latest policies is akin to showing approval of slavery?!

I lost my religion because of all the evil, non-Christian rhetoric mouthed by supposed people of that faith.
In the same way, I'll tell you, by defense of the indefensible, people in this party are driving me away from what used to be the party of principles.

[JackRiddler]

90. Waving a flag is akin to turning off your brain.

It's time for people to grow up and get over the significance of these pieces of cloth. Of course it's wrong to wave a flag that stands explicitly for the defense of slavery. But as for the "good" flags, please. The worst assholes can and usually do wave flags aggressively as a way to shut down thinking and claim they're good and right. Having children pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth teaches nothing other than blind obedience to authority. And I don't care who burns one.

[Uncle Joe]

95. That's the thing about flags if the United States were to lose a war to China, and

they were to take over, you can bet your bottom dollar China in writing history would determine what the U.S. Flag explicitly or solely stood for.

We would be froze in time, the Stars and Stripes would stand for nothing except something along the lines of imperialist, corporate supremacist, hegemony and aggression.

The bravery of millions of American Troops killed in action defending the United States in the eyes of many would be banished to the dustbin of history as a fool's errand defending a corrupted flag and ideology.

I believe too many people have come to treat flags as idols, while at the same time ignoring or all but trashing the Constitution.

[JackRiddler]

107. Got any other science fiction left over from the Cold War?

Meaning the bit about China conquering the world.

Lest you get angry at me, allow me to say I agree entirely with this statement of yours:

"I believe too many people have come to treat flags as idols, while at the same time ignoring or all but trashing the Constitution."

[Uncle Joe]

109. It was just my hypothesis based on historical human traits and frailties.

We may never go to war with China and I hope we don't, but under the scenario I outlined if we did, I believe that kind of consistent human behavior would take place.

I proposed China but the same basic truth would hold to any nation.

I believe it's something to consider whenever one takes into account the value or meaning of flags.

Personally I'm a fan of science fiction as it can be on the cutting of edge of what is to be but I would never be angry with you, Jack, just because you state your opinion.

[Yavin4]

99. So, Then You'd Have No Problem With Your Neighbor

Displaying a Confederate flag outside his/her front door?

[JackRiddler]

106. I only have a problem with you not reading what I write before responding.

I answered that question.

[T S Justly]

93. Burning the US Flag is akin to burning a Confederate flag ...

I believe protestors have the right to do both.

[Yavin4]

100. Having the Right To Do So Aint My Point

My point is that if the intent of OWS is to rally the masses to their side, then antagonizing members of the masses is pretty dumb.

[JackRiddler]

108. Actually, your point seems to be to pin "OWS" neurotically to a flag-burning incident in Oakland...

completely stripping it of context. For example, neglecting the fact that the cops rioted and smashed up a peaceful protest in a brutal way, making a mockery of the Constitution that this flag supposedly represents.

So some kids burned some flags (one, several, I don't care) in Oakland after the cops brutalized and arrested several hundred people for exercising their free speech rights.

Make sure you keep talking about the poor flag.

[T S Justly]

112. And, my point ...

Is, it hasn't slowed Occupy.

[DontTreadOnMe]

113. If burning a flag antagonizes someone, then I am ready to burn

Please send me the list of all the Americans who feel offended... I would like to go burn a flag in their presence.

It's my American Constitutional right to express MY 1st Amendment Right... I am tired of people trying to censor MY Constitution.

And yes, I burn a Confederate Flag at the same time. Maybe I'll use a Bible as starter fluid.

Time to get into people's faces before all our rights are gone.

[Spider Jerusalem]

115. So quite a lot of Southerners aren't "average everyday Americans"? Right then