If the 99% are dumb enough to get all emo over this flag flap (pun)

[whatchamacallit]

and let it diminish their support for the ONLY movement that's trying to do something about their abysmal prospects, they deserve their continued subjugation.

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

1. If the 99% appear dumb, odds are, that the flag burner has misjudged.

[whatchamacallit]

2. I would like to think most people can separate the will and intent of a movement

from the occasional, inevitable, incidents that accompany large heterogeneous protests.

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

8. Do you believe that a maintaining a positive public image is important to furthering the "intent?"

And further, do you believe that 400 arrests, would be viewed as "occasional" by the 99%?

[whatchamacallit]

11. Where possible I do.

Arrests are part and parcel with protests. Some would argue, in some cases, they are an indicator of success. It would be nice if demonstrations where orderly affairs, but then how effective would they be?

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

16. "but then how effective would they be?"

On that question, I must defer to a far more qualified strategist.

Martin Luther King - The Philosophy of Nonviolent Resistance

http://deanna-proach.suite101.com/martin-luther-king-a88177

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Should I remind you that his famous letter q

was written from the Birmingham Jail?

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

38. I don't know, should you?

Is there more to your connotation?

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. That Doctor King went to jail more than just once

like most leaders of social justice movements.

I thought the connotation was clear

Here, you may want to read it

http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

51. As may you, and The Black Sheep too.

I hope you are able to see the distinction I am trying to point out. In no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law, as would the rabid segregationist. That would lead to anarchy. One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty. I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.

[sabrina 1]

13. Do YOU think that making this one incident out to be of more importance than everything else

that happened that night, and the many other times the OPD brutalized the protesters is a way to maintain a positive image? Most people are more concerned, eg, about what happened to those who were beaten up by the OPD, do you know?

Do you have any idea of what was done to those who were arrested, which affects not just them, but this entire society? See post below from just one of the 'disappeared' and tell me that the flag is not being desecrated by those who would remove the people's right to protest without being nearly killed by their 'civilian' police departments. THAT is true desecration of the flag and what it symoblizes.

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

17. It does not matter what I think.

[a la izquierda]

46. Disappeared?

Really? If they're living and sending messages-especially via the internet-, they're not disappeared. I'm not suggesting that folks have been improperly arrested and horribly mistreated by the police, but good grief.
As someone who studies the truly disappeared (Guatemala/El Salvador/Chile), this is a bit of a stretch.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. We've had a few of those

(after 9.11) but nope, not recently.

And after 9.11 our government really went wild with Arab and Muslim immigrants.

[a la izquierda]

53. Yes, I acknowledge this...

but I'm also a fan of precise use of language. These protesters are very much alive-for now.
I think it's appalling that our own government is treating protesters, who only seek to exercise their freedom of speech.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Oh I agree

I got to deal with actual refugees in my youth... so I do get it.

[sabrina 1]

49. Have you tried to reach anyone who has been arrested to find out where they are, what the charges

against them are, how long they will be detained? Disappeared, yes, even for a few days is way too much. And I am well aware of the history of Guatamala/El Salvador and elsewhere. They didn't start out being what they became. Maybe if people had stood up before it was too late, things might have been different. But that's how things happen, not all at once, incrementally and if we have not learned from history that it is when signs begin to appear that something is not right, that is when to start protesting, loudly before it becomes acceptable.

OWS protesters have been called 'domestic terrorists' now, that is an escalation that needs to be stopped, right there. Starting a community center to help the homeless and the poor is not domestic terrorism, but when elected officials feel free to call it that and people do nothing or say nothing at that point, considering the insane laws we now live under, what will be the next step?

I spoke to a member of the city council of Portland after a brutal attack by the police there and numerous arrests where the protesters were being held without charges and no one knew anything about their conditions or where they were or when they would be released. I was told by that person that she was very concerned about what was going on and she hoped more people would call to let those on the board know 'the public is watching'. So if she's concerned then so am I .

She was scared, she said. She knew some of the people who were in detention and could not believe that they were still not released after two days. I asked her what the charges were, she said she did not know. I asked her who was in charge of detaining them but she said that too was not known to her at that point.

These protesters are in danger. Many of them have been brutally attacked and nearly killed. There is simply no reason for any of this. They are not armed insurgents, they are Americans exercising their rights. Ask Kayvan Sabhegi or Scott Olsen or any of those who ended up in the hospital, ask the women who this weekend were forced to urinate in cups in front of male guards, under the pretext of finding out if they were pregnant, whether they think we ought to 'wait and see' how far this will go before it all becomes acceptable and people DO disappear, accused of being enemies of the state eg.

I don't believe in waiting, in fact we've already waited too long as is obvious by how things are getting worse, how protesters are now being held on huge amounts of bail and charged with felonies. This is not acceptable, and I am glad that there are people who agree and ARE speaking out about it.

[a la izquierda]

54. I'm going to hope that you're not blaming the victims of the Guatemalan Civil War...

If you have the guts to do that, then wow: "And I am well aware of the history of Guatamala/El Salvador and elsewhere. They didn't start out being what they became. Maybe if people had stood up before it was too late, things might have been different."
I'll skip passing judgement, because I have to hope that no one on DU would actually suggest that it was Guatemalan Mayans' fault for not standing up against their military, government, and the US.


No, I've never in my whole life had to deal with a single person I love or care about having been arrested (and I'm not being sarcastic). My friends and family are pretty vanilla. I'm related to a couple of lawyers, which I think generally has helped me out of certain jams.

My point-and I think you know it- was if that people were sending messages to loved ones, they are not disappeared. What you've described above is quite different. Those being held in detention for days on end, without word of their condition/situation- that is being disappeared, from the perspective of the person involved and their friends. And it's disgusting and wrong.

But what you described in the original post was someone who was disappeared, but had sent a message on the internet. I reacted to hyperbole.

[sabrina 1]

55. Wow, do you usually do this? Totally misread what people say?

I will skip your first paragraph and assume you simply had a difficult time understanding what I wrote, it happens.

I have a little more experience with actual oppression and disappearances than most people here, although it is not something I wish to, or ever have discussed here or anywhere online.

I have had the experience of knowing people who feared for their lives, and the lives of their loved ones. I know it can happen anywhere, we are not immune.

And it has happened here in the US. After 9/11, many people WERE rounded up and disappeared, Muslims mostly, and sent to detention centers where their loved ones could NOT reach them. I knew of one woman whose husband was a Muslim immigrant eg, who was picked up and taken away in a van with no way for her to reach him for many weeks. Did she ever dream this could happen here?

How DID it happen here in the US? He was not guilty of anything other than being Muslim.

And it's happened before in this country. And it can happen again. Why does it happen? I know we objected to the Bush admins policies, but unfortunately there were too many Americans who 'trusted' their leaders and assumed those of us who did not, were 'traitors' or foolish or whatever.

I have been involved in the OWS movement from the beginning and have watched the brutality and the force being used against them that is way out of proportion across the country in shock.

I believe it is grave cause for concern and if you don't, if you trust your leaders never to do what they HAVE done before, I simply disagree, although I hope I am wrong. But my fears are less likely to become reality if more people stand up now and fiercely object to this treatment.

I am not alone by any means. The UN Rappateur on Human Rights eg, was so concerned by the escalation of violence against the protesters that he has written to this government to ask that they protect them from the brutality of the police. For those watching this from outside the country, it is shocking and gives one a different perspective. It is in the beginning stages yes, but it has the potential to get worse, as it has, each month.

What I described in the first post was what I learned from the City Council member who could not find out where one of the citizens of her city was after two days. If a member of the city council is being refused information like that, and we are only at the beginning stages of this movement, then I think right now is the time to start actions to stop it. Three months earlier I would not have expected that a respected member of the community, as this person was, could be kept out of contact even with a City Council member for that long.

So, no, I do not want to wait until it becomes 'acceptable'. Sorry if that is not understandable to you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. And I will repeat what I said

Even the High Commissioner in the UN has not compared what is going on in the US to the worst of Guatemala or Mexico or Chile, or Argentina.

And you have no idea what OTHERS here have experienced. I can tell you that somebody "missing" for a few days is NOT the actual term. It happened after 911... but right now we are not there. If we get there, I will say it again... OWS will go away.

[sabrina 1]

63. Yes, I do have an idea of what other people have experienced. Very much so and it is because

of that that I believe when the early signs first begin to appear, THAT is the time to act. Not to wait until it is too late.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. It s time to act

But it is also wrong to use the wrong term. Nobody has disapeared due to the occupy movement...nobody.

Can it happen? Of course, I don't doubt sheriff gore, to mention names, woud love to...

Oh and standing up, thank your lucky stars you live in a country you can still do that. If you were maya and you lived in the hinterlands of Guatemala, you would not even consider it, five hundred years of history and repeated genocides by ladino. Those people know the meaning of desaparecidos, rape, murder, and genocide all too well.

[a la izquierda]

60. Ahh, no. I don't misrepresent what people say.

You wrote what you wrote, which was-and I'll quote for the second time: "And I am well aware of the history of Guatamala/El Salvador and elsewhere. They didn't start out being what they became. Maybe if people had stood up before it was too late, things might have been different."

I'm pretty sure you didn't mean the comment the way it was worded. But read your comment just one more time. It's worded really, really poorly. That's all I was pointing out.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. I did not notice

And standing up the way Americans mean it it's just not done in many places around the world. I debriefed Maya who were persecuted by the Guatemalan government, and who had a history of genocide. As you will understand I am baffled by this blame the victim. The Genocide among the Maya is nt different in many aspects than the Holocaust.

I am completely baffled when I read statements like that.



I know you will get this very well.

[sabrina 1]

64. Yes, maybe it was badly worded. But in many situations which ended up so out of control that

too many people had to die before it is stopped, in the very early stages, there were signs and also, as we are seeing here, lots of people who for whatever reason, dismiss those signs. I do not think that will happen here BECAUSE of those who are not ignoring what has been going on. The US is not immune, especially with the laws now in place, and we certainly didn't think so when began implementing those laws, from going down a very bad road.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. Sabrina I am very familiar with the situation

here in san diego far more than I should. But disappeared is not the correct term for this.

Under US Law you can be detained for up to 72 hours. Nobody has gone missing for months... or in the cases of Guatemala, or even Mexico in '68, for ever.

Yes my dear, there are moms that even today have no clue what happened to their kids in '68. That is the meaning of desaparecido.

No, it is not being in jail (in horrible conditions, with cops going wild) for a few day. Nor is it having charges that are never truly filed, as it has happened here in San Diego over and over again. If we get to that point I will bet most of OWS will go away... like other movements all across LatAm went away and festered for decades.

[a la izquierda]

61. Thank you...

I was simply arguing semantics, not someone's credentials.
Jeez...

[JI7]

3. you do know there are already many in the 99 percent who oppose OWS

as for the flag burning thing i don't think it should be that big a thing or overshadow the message. but it's also important for those who want to spread message to try to get support and not take attention away from the message.

[whatchamacallit]

5. I agree

[SammyWinstonJack]

23. Those many in the 99 percent who oppose OWS are the many who vote for repugs.

The many that vote against their own financial interests and of course oppose those who protest the economic inequality trickled down on the 99 percent. In other words...morans!

OWS has been committed since Day One to peaceful non-violent protest. It was the city mayors and police chiefs that decided police brutality was the way to go.

Quite frankly I am amazed that these protesters have remained non-violent in the face of such brutality. That shows their deep commitment to peaceful protests.

As for the flag burning thing...next time they want to burn a flag on city hall steps, they should bring their own and burn it.

[sabrina 1]

50. Yes, Rightwingers oppose OWS. But they never know what is good for them, so it's always

up to the Left to take care of things for them. Have they ever supported any movement like the Civil Rights movement eg, or the Women's rights movement, even though in the end it benefited them also?

They ARE the 99% but they are brainwashed into supporting those who are not working for THEM. That's always been the case, I view them in the same way I view children who don't know that their parents are looking out for their welfare when they insist they go to school, or to the dentist etc, but they do not want to go. Later they will thank them, after the grow up.

[Selatius]

4. You can always convince some of the former slaves to stay on as sharecroppers.

Just as you can convince 49% of the public to vote for right-wing candidates. I understand why the top 1% would vote for right-wing candidates, but the other 49% is either willfully ignorant or just plain misinformed.

[arely staircase]

6. burning the american flag is constitutionally protected speech - and the fastest way to alienate

the working class.

[girl gone mad]

9. the fastest way to alienate the working class?

Really? The fastest way? I think you might be overstating it just a little bit.

[arely staircase]

10. please see my thread i started - i think this is the work of agents provocateur

trying to discredit the movement. think about it.

oops, edited to include link
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002248966

[_ed_]

21. The height of conceit

is pretending to speak for "the working class."

[arely staircase]

26. so you are going to slam the whole organization because of one idiot wo was probably a cop? nt

[Kaleko]

22. Gee, one would think that the fastest way to alienate

the working class is to rob the Treasury, push the middle class into poverty and impose austerity on everyone except multimillionaires.

But if you're on DU, you'll consistently learn otherwise.

What has this site become??

[whatchamacallit]

24. +1

[arely staircase]

25. and one would be very wrong

if one thinks that burning an american flag will rally the americannworking class to one's cause, one is very confused. which is exactly why i think it was probably a cop.

[Kaleko]

27. You're laboring under the assumption

that Occupiers are primarily concerned with public relations so as to convert more people to their cause. While that may be true for a small contingent, the majority of protesters has far more exciting goals. In fact, those who are out on the streets in America now are sick to death of being manipulated by PR efforts of any kind and would rather get clobbered by mainstream tongue-waggers than use image control tactics to persuade more dummies believing what they're told by TV news.

From what I've seen and heard, the leading edge of the Occupy movement worldwide is keenly aware that they are the spearhead of a global cultural revolution, an uprising like no other ever seen before on this earth. Thanks to information technology and rapid disclosure of just how badly the people are being screwed out of a life that is worth living, these protesters realize that it is only a matter of time - a few months maybe in the case of America - before massive amounts of Indignados will join them out there in the streets, in abandoned buildings and in the parks that rightfully belong to all.

[arely staircase]

28. isn't rallying people to your cause necessary for any movement to be successful? nt

[Kaleko]

29. As I said,

there's no need to be concerned about rallying people using PR tactics around a cause as explosive as the plight of the 99%.

[arely staircase]

31. what pr tactics? not burning the flag is a pr tactic? nt

[Kaleko]

33. No.

[arely staircase]

34. what are your ideas on winning over middle america to the cause? nt

[Kaleko]

37. Read my posts?

[arely staircase]

40. humor me nt

[Kaleko]

43. Reading my posts

over and over again until there is a sudden burst of comprehension would be the fastest way to get a different answer out of me.

Good luck and bye for now.

[dana_b]

7. a letter from an interfaith protestor detained for over 50 hours on this:

The following email was received from a faith leader in OO.

On Jan 31, 11:30 am, Sri Louise <[e-mail]> wrote:
hello all,

i am too tired having been held hostage for the last 50 hours under
florescent lights, sleep deprived in a an air-conditioned room going cold
to share my coat with others so that they could feel warmth...
...
please do not talk about gandhi or satyagraha until i actually see those
talking about it dare to confront the system in the way that gandhi and his movement did....
where is our moral courage? not morality. i do want our classist, religious
morality. i am asking where is our moral courage?
... i was in detention for 54 hours, effectively disappeared.
where is your outrage? we have a new national defense bill that could make
this more common place than it already is and what we continue to focus on is
always some minuscule vandalism? really people? ... are still going to go on about this?
the only life i known is one in which capitalism has destroyed everything i
hold as dear, just and beautiful. look around. look at the mountain tops,
at the forests, at our oceans, our air, we live in a disappearing world. do
not stand idley by while they allow life form and your civil liberties to
become extinct.extinct! not broken windows or some bullshit graffiti, EXTINCT.
we are talking about a climate change that is already too far gone for us to
reverse it. we will inevitably lose entire nation states. islands, their
culture and their people will vanish...when are we going to get out of our
privileged denial; we are in catastrophic times...hello?
the suffering of the world is unbearable and we are going to go on about a
fucking burnt flag in city hall after they illegally kettle hundreds of
protesters, make illegal arrests, hold these people in hand cuffs for 6
hours, detain them without charge or booking so their name, their very
being is denied by system for 48 hours? torture them in custody, deny them
a phone call for 36 hours...the stories that continue to emerge will make
you shake your head and heart in such deep despair.
i successfully carried an orchid the entire day yesterday...it was ripped
out of my hands by the OPD for no reason other than they cannot stand to
see me in my beautiful defiance...luckily an angle, a comrade, someone who
many of you want to dismiss as violent or separate yourself from, this very
same person, the one i call my guardian angel pulled me from behind. that
person risked arrest so that the police were not able to grab me and beat
the shit out of me as they did molly, so if anyone wants to talk about violence
or property destruction, can you please start talking about that?
i am ever more committed to occupy oakland and do you know why? those
people who you dismiss, who you turn your nose down at are the very same
people who spent 24 hours outside of santa rita cheering their comrades as
they walked out. there was a huge buffet of food and beverages and they made
sure that everyone had a ride home. those "anarchists" and diversity of tactic
folks, who everyone dismisses, could really teach the interfaith
group a lot about love, brotherhood and community...
in prayer,
sri

[sabrina 1]

12. It's not the 99% who are 'all emo' over this!

Not to worry, but it is instructive to see how it is being used to try to do the impossible, make this movement go away, which of course it will not. The Occupiers are already moving on to the next events to try to get equality for all Americans.

[whatchamacallit]

14. I know

my post was a roundabout way of telling the concern trolls to give it a rest.

[randome]

15. You mean they're going to try to take over more public buildings?

Seriously, is there ANYTHING that OWS has done that you do not agree with?

And do you SERIOUSLY think that anyone who disagrees with you is trying to 'make this movement go away'?

[sabrina 1]

18. I don't expect to agree with everything a movement as big as this does.

I leave the attempt to use those relatively minor incidents to the rightwing and the Corporate MSM to cover though, which I know they will do ad infinitum. My interest in moving forward always and not allowing anyone even some who have attached themselves to the movement, to distract from the main reasons that cause the creation and then the rapid explosion of this movement across the globe.

Why would I want to help the 1% to try to distract from the real issues affecting so many millions of people? They are paying people to do that work, I don't have to help them, nor do you of course. You can be sure the Corporate MSM will seek out the most unflattering incidents to report on, why do we need to help them when we know they will do that job very well?

Why do I think that those who do this, focus like the Corporate media on a relatively insignificant incident wants to make this movment go away? Because it's true. That is what the Corporate media's job is and anyone helping them, imho, has the same goal.

Why not focus on the people who were harmed that night? The people whose rights, which the flag is a symbol of, were taken away by their own tax-paid-for PD? Why is that not so much more important to people who say they support this movement? Please, it isn't hard to figure out really.

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

19. "Please, it isn't hard to figure out really."

You are correct; it's not very difficult at all.

"will seek out the most unflattering incidents to report"

Rubbernecking is a human trait that is associated with morbid curiosity. Your lack of consideration for the human element, continues to affect a misadjusted focus.

[Luminous Animal]

36. MLK took over a private building.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002253760

[quaker bill]

20. If you are going to represent the 99 percent

you need to represent the dumb ones too.

[loyalsister]

30. And maybe show them some respect?

There is a wide education range among the 99%. There is also a wide range of opinions, which means many hold some conservative positions. Pretending to represent them while spouting derisive rhetoric is a republican tactic. OWS is supposed to be better than that.

If they want to succeed and have a positive effect for the 99% but care nothing of PR, they should take a break and read some history about successful civil rights movements.

[quaker bill]

39. Part of that respect

is understanding who they are. I spent way too many hours at way too many meetings during the 70s where it was concluded that our ideas were not selling because those who did not agree were "too dumb to get it". Maybe they were, but they still live here and vote in large numbers....

[loyalsister]

42. Exactly

The common experiences and goals are what matter.
Differences in respect for symbols, religious beliefs or non beliefs, education, political affiliation, etc should not be divisive determinants.

[dionysus]

32. you should go to the center of your town and burn a flag in solidarity. see how it works out for you

[HuckleB]

41. Oddly, I hardly know anything about this.

Not even the goofy Connies on facebook have spouted off about this.

Hmmmmmm.

[TheKentuckian]

44. They want Occupy to be a "Democratic tea party" but without really pressing anything or knocking

establishment pols out. More of a booster club to push the youth vote and herd the disaffecteds than a movement.

[HuckleB]

45. Who is "they?"

[TheKentuckian]

67. Those banging the drums on this board and passing out from the vapors

but have nary a word to spare for the conditions that created Occupy.

They are as you pointed out, the primary platform for these "concerns" and are even more heavy handed and relentless in trying to spread negativity about this movement than than the corporate media or even the TeaPubliKlans.

"They" are apparent and seemingly never rest.

[sabrina 1]

52. Go to the Rightwing sites, like DU, they are all over it. I remember when we were rarely in

sinc with the far right. But now, it's hard to tell where you are, sometimes. Andrew Breitbart and DU, whoever would have thought we would be aligned with that moron?? Strange times we are living in.

The left moving further and further to the right. There is a shift happening, maybe it's a good thing and something better than what we've been relying on for so long, without much success, will emerge from all of this.

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

66. go to

[Puregonzo1188]

57. Are we still on the flag?

I don't know how authoritarian mined we've become when a handful of individuals burning a flag is seen as a bigger problem than massive police brutality.