Right or wrong aside, burning a flag is a TERRIBLE way to protest.

[TheWraith]

It is a guaranteed way to completely blow away any chance of anyone taking you seriously, and to alienate the overwhelming majority of Americans. Americans who have by and large spent their lives admiring and supporting the things they see the flag standing for, including community identity, national service, a shared set of ideals, and the sacrifices made by veterans.

Whether you want to argue that it's right or wrong, the reality is that the overwhelming majority of Americans see burning a flag as an expression of someone rejecting and demeaning those things, regardless of what the people staging the burning actually think.

Flag burning accomplishes absolutely nothing except alienating anyone not already on your side.

[msongs]

1. freedom of speech and action is soooooo unamerican nt

[renie408]

3. I think the point is that you are also free to paint yourself purple and run around

in a neon green skin suit to call attention to your cause.

But it might not be the smartest thing to do. Just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD.

[bluestateguy]

11. You missed the OP's point completely

The Westboro Baptist church also has the right to free speech and assembly.

And we have that same right in turn to criticize them for their tactics.

[jberryhill]

16. You can tattoo a penis on your forehead too

The First Amendment allows you to tattoo a penis on your forehead.

If you don't do it, then you are unAmerican.

[SidDithers]

23. Wooosh...nt

Sid

[Union Scribe]

2. Um, were any of the people here

freaking out about it taking OWS seriously or supporting them before this? I see the same people trashing them now that were trashing them before. But, oh no, now they'll never support them! Gimme a break.

[EFerrari]

6. Lol, yes, it's hilarious. nt

[renie408]

7. Why does it have to be all or nothing?

Can't you support OWS without supporting every single thing every single OWS protester does? I swear, I really do support the Occupy movement. I think it is brave and admirable and NECESSARY. And I happen to think it is too important to fuck up because a few people got carried away or just felt like cutting loose.

[JSnuffy]

22. The reason is the reaction from OWS...

The act was offensive and off-putting to many people. Ok fine..

It is the response from the group and the fact that it is supported, defended and excused at ALL costs that strips away any semblance of credibility.

[EFerrari]

39. Baloney. I don't see supporters turning.

I see the same critics playing gotcha.

[2pooped2pop]

13. damn, again I must give you an A++

You are exactly right.

[Cali_Democrat]

15. THANK YOU!!

Many of the people suddenly concerned about the flag burning have always trashed OWS.

Hilarious.

[joeglow3]

31. There is a HUGE difference between those not motivated enough to go to political boards...

...and those that do. I agree with your sentiment among those on the boards. However, the average person is NOT on these boards with an opinion. However, seeing flag burning WILL piss off many of those people. It is a fucking idiotic tactic.

[justiceischeap]

4. Which would make burning the flag a powerful tool to use AGAINST OWS

I don't know that the guys who did this were "moles" to discredit OWS but there is a good likelihood that is so. I find it amazing that no one really seems to be talking about the fact that even though they allegedly stole this flag out of City Hall, that though they were surrounded by police, there was time for photo ops. The police did nothing to stop this 'theft' of property--which leads my cynical mind to this this was a set-up. I know there's a thread that says it wasn't a set-up but unless we know the guys that did this personally, we have no way of knowing the motivation behind the flag burning. Kinda like the Repubs rubes that created the disturbance in DC with OWS... one lesson that can be learned from that whole ordeal is that if you dress like you "belong" at OWS and then cover your face, no one can identify if you are a Repub or not.

Although I AM cynical, I also like to think that the majority of people interested in OWS or following the news on OWS, know that this was a one-off incidence, otherwise, we'd hear about this common occurrence in the news on a daily basis.

[Generic Brad]

34. It is not possible for Oakland police to exercise restraint?

If I believed everything I read here on DU (not necessarily your post), I would have to come to the conclusion that the Oakland police are all cunning violent criminals, the flag burning was a set up, everyone in the leaderless OWS movement is 100% innocent of any wrong doing, when they do something wrong they are justified, and anyone who questions OWS methods are agents of the 1%.

Until there is definitive proof that the flag burning was a set up or more facts are known, I don't have enough information to construct an informed opinion of the images. That does not mean I don't get OWS or condone violence against protesters or disagree with the aims of the movement.

And with that said, I have undoubtedly condemned myself to multiple ignore lists.

[justiceischeap]

47. My concern with the OPD isn't whether or not they used restraint but

whether or not they're doing their jobs. Taking over City Hall (after it's closed) is illegal. I don't condone that thought I respect it. That said, why were people allowed to participate in criminal acts and the police just stood by? That has nothing to do with restraint and everything with not doing their jobs, IMO. Unless the OPD wanted a reason they could arrest people legally and therefore, stood by knowingly allowing a crime to be committed. That is just as wrong, IMO, as breaking and entering.

BTW, you won't be put on my ignore list for speaking your opinion, even if it differs from mine. I only ignore really, really annoying people.

[DesertFlower]

5. watching a flag being burned bothers me,

but i respect the rights of those who do it.

even though i'm an atheist i wouldn't burn a bible or a koran or anything with religious significance.

[LeftyMom]

8. Thank you very much for your sincere and deeply felt concern.

We are all enormously moved, I am sure.

[emilyg]

14. Actually - I am deeply moved.

[LeftyMom]

19. I have no doubt of that.

[emilyg]

30. Perhaps you should be

deeply moved,too.

[joeglow3]

32. Fuck yeah.

What the fuck does he think this place is? A place for opinions? Fucking idiot!!

[pa28]

35. I too would like to thank the OP for his concern.

This was an isolated incident unrelated to the spirit of OWS. Time to move on.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

9. In the words of Congresswoman Regina Bookman (D-RI)

"This country! Was founded under certain principles! Freedom! Troops! America! Flag! I might not know where I’m going with this, but I know we will get there! Together! Maybe I get carried away sometimes. My Love… for this great country! And the troops! And the Flag Troops!"

[bluestateguy]

10. It accomplishes nothing positive and only makes people angry at them

Yes it should be legal (got that out of the way).

But it is about as boneheaded as a candlelight vigil.

[2pooped2pop]

12. Let it go, Wraith

another flag will step up to take it's place.

Look...there goes Frodo

[pennylane100]

17. I only see the flag as a piece of cloth.

The true mark of a country comes from its actions not its symbols. The people who see their country's image being defiled by the burning of this piece of cloth are probably not the same ones who hung their heads in shame when we invaded a country that was no threat to us, killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people and displacing millions. They do not see our image defiled when we continue to fight and kill in Afghanistan long after Bin Laden and Al Qaeda are no longer threats. They do not see our image defiled when we allow our own citizens to die because of poverty and homelessness while the the rich few continue to prosper.

The country represented by Old Glory is now a country that imprisons both citizens and enemies indefinitely without trial. We also torture them and occasionally assassinate them. Our constitution is slowly being shredded by corporations that own our government and our corrupt politicians. Our law enforcement agencies can shoot and brutalize us without repercussion and our white collar criminals who helped to destroy this country continue walk free.

I think that the sight of our flag being burned is the least of our problems.

[onenote]

18. I kind of doubt you actually do

If they had burned a tablecloth would you regard it as conveying the same message?

[pennylane100]

21. well it would have been just as meaningless.

in that it would have evoke no particular emotions other than someone does not like housework.

[randome]

20. It's funny how those who proclaim 'freedom of speech'...

...can't say what was being protested by the burning except by guessing what the motivations of the vandals were.

I support OWS as far as protests and actions to help right the economic injustice in this country. But the attempt to take over a public building and then vandalizing City Hall were stupid stunts.

Gotta call 'em like I see 'em.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Oh my...

same crew you know what...

Freedom of speech is so damn inconvenient.

I may personally not like a SYMBOL burned... but hey, that same SYMBOL stands for precisely that FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

I know, those are inconvenient facts.

By the way, it is going to alienate the people the same way that flag burning has alienated Americans in every social justice movement... aka the same group that is clutching pearls from the beginning.

(And if I happen to be there when insert group here burns the flag... guess what? I will send those photos to my editor. They are news worthy... just as when the COPS take it away from insert protest here and throw it on the ground... odd, that people here do not clutch pearls over that one)

[tabasco]

26. Whooooosh!

Nobody in this thread has advocated against free speech.

The inconvenient fact is that flag burning makes protesters look like a dumbasses.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. and it happens

and the exact same people who have been clutching pearls from the beginning, are the same complaining.

So you are correct, WHOOSH indeed.

By the way how dumb does my local PD looks by taking away the flag from a veteran?

How about NYPD dropping it on the ground?

How about OPD doing the same?

Did I mention Austin stepping on it?

[tabasco]

28. Yes, I am correct.

Burning the flag makes protesters look like dumbasses.

Maybe you can point to a thread in which I was (forgive the stupid cliche) "clutching pearls."

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. But I notice you do not speak about cops

disrespecting the flag while in uniform.

I guess, since they are doing that while on duty it is ok.

[phleshdef]

37. Bullshit. There are plenty of people offended by flag burning who are NOT clutching pearls.

I personally could give less of a damn about it. But I'd say a vast majority of average working class people across the entire ideological spectrum are turned off by it. If you don't get that, then you don't really understand much about this society at all. It doesn't matter how justified it is. OWS is trying to sell a message and flag burning is a sure fire way to get the door slammed right in its face by a lot of otherwise good citizens who happen to harbor these odd religious-esque fetishes for things like the flag.

How about, how about, how about... how about who gives a fuck? All your "how abouts" aren't ever going to reach the average citizen that gets offended by these sorts of things. So get over your "how abouts". They are irrelevant and fruitless arguments. This is politics. This is about selling good ideology. These idiots setting flags on fire are doing nothing but turning people off. Its nothing more than a giant fucking present laid at the right wing's doorstep. Its giving them easy fuel to discredit the movement. And once the movement is discredited and people stop listening to the message, then all the "how abouts" in the world will get us absolutely nowhere.

The flag burners are nothing more than immature, short sighted, mental midgets who should be shunned. Not because its the American flag or any of that kind of pseudo-religious nonsense in the name of superficial patriotism, but simply because the realities of our society dictates that such actions do real damage to the goal of selling people on a good message. Thats the real sin here. They'd do more good for the real OWS message had they set themselves on fire.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. I guess we should also shun the USSC

who has found it to be protected speech.

I may not agree, but IT IS protected speech

[phleshdef]

48. Klan rallies are also protected speech. Westboro funeral protesting is protected speech.

Do you have an actual fucking point?

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. Yes, that this outrage

is quite funny given how many times COPS have thrown the flag into the trash.

[phleshdef]

50. I'm not disagreeing with the notion that there are double standards here.

I'm just pointing out that it really doesn't matter as far as the end result of public perception goes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. And as far as that is concerned

it will piss off the same group that wants to piss off and that is pretty much the same group across history.

THose looking for reasons to be outraged are actually a minority and have time in their hands... most folks do not even know it happened. Serious.

[phleshdef]

53. And, again thats where you are mistaken.

Average joe, well meaning, good intentioned, compassionate middle class Americans from every imaginable partisan affiliation see those flags burning on the 10 o clock news and they get offended by it and they get turned off by it. I'm talking about the people who aren't tuned into politics all the time, who don't spend their days reading blogs and watching their favorite pundits espouse political opinion.

I'm not saying they shouldn't consider the deeper implications of it all. That they shouldn't question their own considerations of what is ultimately meaningless symbolism. But whether they should or not is irrelevant. The fact is, they often don't and won't. And those kinds of people make up a huge portion of the voting populace. They are exactly the group of people that you don't want to turn off to your cause, to our cause.

So because of the actions of a few protestors that gets plastered on the media repeat, all over the evening news, OWS as a whole get alienated from the mainstream. Thats not a good thing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Well it ran in local news

Not national

Just like the local incident that even made it to local hate radio

It is this week's outrage, to be followed by next, and next and next. Iy is predictable.

[deutsey]

25. I support anyone's right to burn the flag

However, I do agree that it's a pretty stupid and counter-productive way to protest.

[Yo_Mama]

33. I think less extreme tactics are hurting them too

The flag-burning could have been, and probably was, the work of just a few. This is an SF poll of support for OWS, and if it is valid, OWS should rethink its strategy before it is marginalized:
http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=1dd2e8b1-38aa-456a-b000-c1ab1639f64d

Notice the questions on both police behavior and the strategy of occupying vacant buildings. I don't think the public comprehends this - the original message of OWS, to protest financial interests that seemed to have a stranglehold on public affairs - seems to have been lost.

[slay]

46. Of course it was just a few! It did not take 400+ people - nor all the marchers - to burn 1 flag

but people LOVE to focus on minor bad shit instead of what's important. i find it ridiculous that THIS is what people are pissed about instead of the KETTLING OF 400 PROTESTERS - much less the reasons #Occupy are protesting!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kettling

[rollin74]

36. K & R

I agree

burning a flag should NOT be illegal but it's stupid and counterproductive if you're trying to build a popular movement

[inna]

40. what's with flag fetishism/fixation, i'm genuinely puzzled...

i mean, i get it that it's the current M$M-propagated anti-OWS meme (and part of an ongoing anti-OWS assault... and I mean, not just a PR assault, but PHYSICAL assault as well), but... isn't it a bit heavy-handed, even for those of us who normally do not question the dominant corporate narrative?...


fixating on that episode (almost certainly perpetrated by ag-provocateurs, btw) = refusing to see the forest beyond the trees.


hello! Occupy is *NOT* the problem, it's part of the solution, if anything.

[joshcryer]

42. lol "provocateurs"

[inna]

43. oops, did i totally misspell? it didn't look right, but... i was too lazy to bother to check

[joshcryer]

41. Would you be opposed to burning the black flag?

[Rex]

44. Horrible way to stage a PR stunt

indeed.

[slay]

45. I think it's a GREAT way to protest...

if you don't like flags.


I know I don't like flags - and I'm assuming these guys don't like flags either. Perhaps they prefer the painting of the dogs playing poker - do you know that picture - that is hilarious i think you would find it funny too - maybe it will help you relax - a flag being burned is not the end of the world you know and #OWS is about much more serious problems than that good lord. here - i'll include it at the end of my post for you.




.
.
.
Dogs playing poker - so funny! -->

[LanternWaste]

52. I imagine it is rather easier to allow public perception, branding and popularity...

I imagine it is rather easier to allow public perception, branding and popularity to hold sway over one's ideas, and that, for the most part, maintaining the strength and courage of one's convictions is a terrible way to protest...

A wonderful little book, Sitting for Equal Service by Melody Herr, recalls how very unpopular the sit-ins were at southern lunch counters, and how the act alienated an overwhelming majority of Americans. "Americans who have by and large spent their lives admiring and supporting the things they see the flag standing for..." and that it alienated people who were not already on their side.

[MNBrewer]

54. except alienating anyone not already on your side

Let me guess....you speak from personal experience?

[redqueen]

55. Yep! Plus it's just lazy.

People see a burning flag and think WTF?

Much better to use signs. OWS used some brilliant signs... a burning flag has the opposite effect.

[Jennicut]

56. People freaking out about burning flags cracks me up.

That is about all I have to say on this subject. The collective freak out is just very amusing. The people who really hate flag burning are the ones not for OWS to begin with. Would I do it? Probably not, it really has no shock value and is kind of cliche. Which is why people freaking out over it is very funny to me.