For the anti-vaccination crowd:

[shraby]

Last edited Mon Mar 4, 2013, 01:16 PM - Edit history (1)

Mr. Taugher lost four children by diphtheria last week. On Wednesday,
the youngest whose age was about three years, died, and on the following day
the eyes of two others, whose ages were respectively five and seven, were
closed in death. The three were buried in one grave on Friday. On Saturday
another, aged about eleven fell a victim to the fell destroyer. This indeed
is a deep affliction and the disconsolate parents have the heartfelt sympathy
of every one in their terrible anguish and distress.
Manitowoc Pilot Thursday, January 27, 1881
NOTE: From the 1880 Census: Anthony 47, Bridget 40, J.P. 17, Bridget 19,
Cate 15, That 13, M.A. 11, A.J. 9, M.E. 6 Agnes 3, Lilly 8 months

Don't think for one minute that things like this can't happen again if enough people don't vaccinate their children.
I simply can't imagine how the parents could deal with having 9 children around the dinner table one week and the next week 5 were there.
I'm going to keep hammering on this until maybe some eyes will open.

[shraby]

1. Shamelessly kicking for more exposure...it's important to be seen.

[SidDithers]

2. DU Rec...

anti-vaxxers should be marginalized and ridiculed.

Thank you for this post.

Sid

[AntiFascist]

33. Typical black and white thinking here on DU...

in fact, mercury-free vaccinations are now a viable option. Why not promote those?

[SidDithers]

34. Who said anything about mercury?...nt

Sid

[AntiFascist]

37. Actually you did, in another thread...

ridiculing someone for being anti-thimerosal.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2428043

According to your post:

"So, since thimerosal is 50% mercury, there is 25ug of mercury per dose."

[SidDithers]

39. "in another thread"....

I think I probably talked about baseball in another thread too.

Though, now that you've brought it up, it does seem that the anti-vaxxers do love to try to confuse everyone with the 'mercury in all your vaccines' canard.

For the record, the diptheria vaccine for children ages 6 and under does not have any mercury in it.

Sid

[AntiFascist]

40. Wonderful...

so instead of riduculing and marginalizing the uninformed, why not explain the situation?

Many parents are understandably paranoid about autism, since it is occuring at epidemic levels within most of our society. This is probably one main reason why many people are "anti-vaccine". Explaining to them that most vaccines for young children no longer contain mercury should be reassuring to them.

Ridicule and marginalization would just make them angry.

[SidDithers]

41. The FDA publishes a list of vaccines and their mercury content...

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228

I've argued with anti-vaxxers too many times to care about changing minds and educating the uninformed anymore. Far, far too often, they'd rather believe what Mike fucking Adams, or Joseph fucking Mercola or Jenny fucking McCarthy tells them about vaccines, instead of listening to public health officials who have real science on their side.

Sid

[AntiFascist]

42. I hate to say this, but...

attitudes like that are not helping the Democratic Party. Unless you want to wage war against the right-wing idiots, our best offense is to use science and education against them, in cases like this. If you make them angry then we just end up with gridlock and government is no longer effective....

On edit: sorry, not to imply that anyone named in Sid's post is a "right-wing idiot". I was referring to the more predominant anti-government attitude of the tea party types.

[SidDithers]

43. Then I'll expect you to be jumping in arguing on the side of science...

next time some anti-vaxxer uses naturalnews, or mercola or generationrescue, or safeminds, or ageofautism as a "source".

Edit: and you can leave out the "right-wing" part. Mike Adams, Joseph Mercola and Jenny McCarthy really are idiots. No further descriptive needed.

Sid

[AntiFascist]

44. I hate to disappoint you, but...

safeminds has quite a good handle on science, as I pointed out in another post --


here's a few scientific studies that may have stoked fear about thimerosal:

Thimerosal Neurotoxicity is Associated with Glutathione Depletion: Protection with Glutathione Precursors.
Neurotoxicology, Jan 2005.
S. Jill James, PhD <University of Arkansas>.

This recent study demonstrates that Thimerosal lowers or inhibits the body's ability to produce Glutathione, an antioxidant and the body's primary cellular-level defense against mercury. Excerpt:


"Thimerosal-induced cytotoxicity was associated with depletion of intracellular Glutathione in both cell lines...The potential effect of Glutathione or N-acetylcysteine against mercury toxicity warrants further research as possible adjunct therapy to individuals still receiving Thimerosal-containing vaccines."


Uncoupling of ATP-mediated Calcium Signaling and Dysregulated IL-6 Secretion in Dendritic Cells by Nanomolar Thimerosal
Environmental Health Perspectives, July 2006.
Samuel R. Goth, Ruth A. Chu Jeffrey P. Gregg

This study demonstrates that very low-levels of Thimerosal can contribute to immune system disregulation. Excerpt:


"Our findings that DCs primarily express the RyR1 channel complex and that this complex is uncoupled by very low levels of THI with dysregulated IL-6 secretion raise intriguing questions about a molecular basis for immune dyregulation and the possible role of the RyR1 complex in genetic susceptibility of the immune system to mercury."


Activation of Methionine Synthase by Insulin-like Growth Factor-1 and Dopamine: a Target for Neurodevelopmental Toxins and Thimerosal.
Molecular Psychiatry, July 2004.
Richard C. Deth, PhD <Northeastern University>.

This study demonstrates how Thimerosal inhibits methylation, a central driver of cellular communication and development. Excerpt:


"The potent inhibition of this pathway <methylation> by ethanol, lead, mercury, aluminum, and thimerosal suggests it may be an important target of neurodevelopmental toxins."


Neurotoxic Effects of Postnatal Thimerosal are Mouse Strain Dependent.
Molecular Psychiatry, Sep 2004.
Mady Hornig, MD <Columbia University>.

This recent work by Columbia University Doctors explores whether genes are important in determining if mercury exposures akin to those in childhood immunizations can disrupt brain development and function. It is the first known scientific study done specifically on ethlymercury administered in a way similar to the vaccine schedule. Dr. Hornig discussed the study before Congress in September 2004. Excerpt:


"The premise of our research is that if mercury in vaccines creates risk for neurodevelopmental disorders such as autism, genetic differences are likely to contribute to that risk. Earlier studies, however, did not use the form of mercury present in vaccines, known as thimerosal, and did not consider whether intramuscular, repetitive administration during early postnatal development, when the brain and immune systems are still maturing, might intensify toxicity. Our predictions were confirmed. Using thimerosal dosages and timing that approximated the childhood immunization schedule, our model of postnatal thimerosal neurotoxicity demonstrated that the genes in mice that predict mercury-related immunotoxicity also predicted nuerodevelopmental damage. Features reminiscent of those observed in autism occurred in the mice of the genetically sensitive strain."


Thimerosal induces DNA breaks, Caspase-3 Activation, Membrane Damage, and Cell Death in Cultured Human Neurons and Fibroblasts.
Toxicological Science, 2003.
David S. Baskin, MD <Baylor College of Medicine>.

This study demonstrates the potent toxicity of Thimerosal on brain cells.

Organic Mercury Compounds and Autoimmunity.
Autoimmunity Review, 2005.
Said Havarinasab, MD <Linkoping University>.

This study demonstrates the clear link between ethylmercury <from Thimerosal> and autoimmune responses.


Mercury and autism: Accelerating Evidence?
Neuroendocrinology Letters, Oct 2005.
Joachim Mutter, M.D. <Freiburg University, Germany>.

This recent study from Germany summarizes many of the recent scientific advances. Excerpt:


"The causes of autism and neurodevelopmental disorders are unknown. Genetic and environmental risk factors seem to be involved...Repetitive doses of thimerosal leads to neurobehavioral deteriorations in autoimmune susceptible mice, increased oxidative stress and decreased intracellular levels of glutathione in vitro. Subsequently, autistic children have significantly decreased level of reduced glutathione. Promising treatments of autism involve detoxification of mercury, and supplementation of deficient metabolites."


Retrograde Degeneration of Neurite Membrane Structural Integrity of Nerve Growth In Vitro Exposure to Mercury.
NeuroReport, 2001.
Christopher Leong, MD <University of Calgary>.

This study shows how mercury damages brain cells.

[SidDithers]

45. Safeminds thinks mercury causes autism...

and, apparently, so do you.

From their home page:

The purpose of SafeMinds is to restore health and protect future generations by eradicating the devastation of autism and associated health disorders induced by mercury and other toxicants from human activities.

This is why I don't engage anti-vax nutbars. This is why marginalization and ridicule are the best response.

Thanks for making your position clear.

Sid

[AntiFascist]

54. Then you are the one who is being anti-science...

since mercury is a known neurotoxin and, as the research I posted suggests, children with certain genetic predispositions may be more prone to developing autism symptoms as the result of exposure to the form of mercury, as it is administered in thimerosal-containing vaccines.

Also, why do you accuse me of being anti-vaccine? I'm all for removing mercury from vaccines, but not against the vaccine itself.

[SidDithers]

59. You brought mercury into this thread...

You're the one trying to link mercury in vaccines to autism.

You're the one defending safeminds and their special brand of anti-vax bullshit.

Please, give us ageofautism next. You know you want to.

Sid

[AntiFascist]

61. Mercury is linked to autism, whether you like it or not...

If the FDA can continue its efforts to eliminate mercury from vaccines, then I won't have a problem with vaccines, regardless of any website you want to throw at me. I cited the information from safeminds because, unlike most of your posts, it is substantive.

[SidDithers]

62. No. It isn't...

but that's what happens when you get your information from sites like safeminds and naturalnews instead of from the CDC, or the World Health Organization, or the FDA, or Health Canada etc.

Sid

[AntiFascist]

64. Here's information from the EPA...

http://www.epa.gov/hg/effects.htm

For fetuses, infants, and children, the primary health effect of methylmercury is impaired neurological development. Methylmercury exposure in the womb, which can result from a mother's consumption of fish and shellfish that contain methylmercury, can adversely affect a baby's growing brain and nervous system. Impacts on cognitive thinking, memory, attention, language, and fine motor and visual spatial skills have been seen in children exposed to methylmercury in the womb. Recent human biological monitoring by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in 1999 and 2000 (PDF) (3 pp., 42 KB, About PDF) shows that most people have blood mercury levels below a level associated with possible health effects. More recent data from the CDC support this general finding.

Outbreaks of methylmercury poisonings have made it clear that adults, children, and developing fetuses are at risk from ingestion exposure to methylmercury. During these poisoning outbreaks some mothers with no symptoms of nervous system damage gave birth to infants with severe disabilities, it became clear that the developing nervous system of the fetus may be more vulnerable to methylmercury than is the adult nervous system.

Ethylmercury effects are not as well known, which is why I cited current research in a previous post.

[SidDithers]

66. Strange. I couldn't find anything linking thimerosal to autism in that link...

maybe I missed it.

That is what you claimed a couple of posts above, right?

Mercury is linked to autism, whether you like it or not

Sid

[AntiFascist]

72. Organic mercury is linked to impaired neurological development in fetuses, infants and children...

If I'm not mistaken, "impairments of cognitive thinking, attention and language" are, more often than not, diagnosed as autism in young children. That is what I am claiming, cited from no less than the EPA.

[SidDithers]

73. The EPA is concerned with environmental mercury, not vaccines...

FDA: http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228

In 2004, the IOM's Immunization Safety Review Committee issued its final report, examining the hypothesis that vaccines, specifically the MMR vaccines and thimerosal containing vaccines, are causally associated with autism. In this report, the committee incorporated new epidemiological evidence from the U.S., Denmark, Sweden, and the United Kingdom, and studies of biologic mechanisms related to vaccines and autism since its report in 2001. The committee concluded that this body of evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism, and that hypotheses generated to date concerning a biological mechanism for such causality are theoretical only.

Health Canada: http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/q_a_thimerosal-eng.php

Does thimerosal cause autism or other neurodevelopmental disorders?

No. The best available science to date has shown that there is no link between vaccines containing thimerosal and autism or other behaviour disorders.

The National Advisory Committee on Immunization (NACI) has reviewed the safety of thimerosal and concluded that the alleged adverse health effect from thimerosal in vaccines has never been substantiated.

International bodies, such as the World Health Organization (WHO), the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (U.S. FDA) and the Institute of Medicine in the U.S., share this opinion.

WHO: http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/committee/topics/thiomersal/Jun_2012/en/index.html

A comprehensive review identified 28 publications that addressed mercury blood levels in the short and long term following vaccine administration, and epidemiological studies that examined the relation between thiomersal receipt and several health outcomes. Three ecological studies suggesting an association between thiomersal and neurodevelopmental disorders were found to be fraught with methodological flaws. In addition, the continuous increase in the number of cases of autism diagnosed in the USA despite removal of thiomersal from most vaccines strongly argues against a causal association (fulfilling the exposure and removal criteria). All other studies reviewed, which were conducted with more robust epidemiological designs and in different countries, failed to identify any association with neurodevelopmental disorders.

CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Thimerosal/QA_Pediatrics-thimerosal-autism.html

This study found that children with any ASD conditions and those without ASD had similar ethylmercury exposures at the end of each exposure period from pregnancy to 20 months of age. Exposure to ethylmercury from thimerosal-containing immunizations during pregnancy (prenatally), or as a young child, was not associated with any of the ASD outcomes. The researchers found that the results were similar between boys and girls—thimerosal-containing immunizations did not increase the risk of any of the ASD outcomes.

AAP: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/131/1/152.full

Since 1999, studies to better understand the pharmacology and toxicology of ethyl mercury have documented the profound differences between ethyl and methyl mercury. In addition, efforts to find evidence of harm to children from TCVs, used globally for >60 years, have failed to reveal any such damage. This is in sharp contrast to experience involving methyl mercury, a documented serious neurotoxin.

Had the AAP (and, we suspect, the USPHS) known what research has revealed in the intervening 14 years, it is inconceivable to us that these organizations would have made the joint statement of July 7, 1999.

And now, despite all of the science presented to you, from leading health organizations, you'll come back with yet another bit of junk science, or misinterpreted vaguely related science, to once again try to prop up the bullshit argument that there is a link between thimerosal in vaccines and autism.

And that is why I usually don't waste my time "debating" vaccine safety with anti-vaxxers. It's like playing chess with a pigeon.

Sid

[AntiFascist]

74. and as I pointed out to you in the other thread....

the studies you cite fail to take into account the cumulative effects of mercury from all sources, environmental and intravenous. Also, none of your studies considers the case of children with a certain genetic susceptibility of the immune system to mercury, as is mentioned in the studies I cited, so, in other words, its kind of a genetic crapshoot whether or not the child will be effected by "the neurotoxic effects of postnatal thimerosal".

[SidDithers]

75. What are you waiting for?!?...

You need to contact:

the World Health Organization
Health Canada
the Food and Drug Administration
the Center for Disease Control
the American Academy of Pediatrics

RIGHT NOW to tell them they're wrong!!

Hurry. Lives are at stake.



I'm done. After correctly predicting the type of reply I'd get from you, there's nothing else to add to this subthread.

Sid

[AntiFascist]

115. You certainly do amuse yourself easily...

in fact some of your favorite groups have been in contact with Congress pointing out conflicts of interest with individuals working at the CDC in particular.

[TheMadMonk]

85. This is because there are no cumulative effects. Ethyl-mercury DOES NOT BIOACCUMULATE.

The body excretes the stuff as fast as it is introduced.

The studies YOU cited are almost certainly those noted by the WHO to have serious methodological flaws.

Mercury based preservatives in vaccines are used a hell of a lot more in Africa and other (warmish) parts of the developed world, and yet autism rates there are far, far lower than in places where it has been totally eliminated.

[AntiFascist]

88. Ethylmercury tends to break down into inorganic mercury more rapidly...

than methylmercury, and inorganic mercury is highly toxic and will accumulate in tissues.

Have your precious studies analyzed the breakdown of ethylmercury in human tissues?

Here's what the Institute of Chronic Illnesses had to say in 2007, in a paper cited from a NIH website:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18049924

A review of Thimerosal (Merthiolate) and its ethylmercury breakdown product: specific historical considerations regarding safety and effectiveness.

...despite evidence, dating to the early 1930s, indicating Thimerosal to be potentially hazardous to humans and ineffective as an antimicrobial agent. Despite this, Thimerosal was not scrutinized as part of U.S. pharmaceutical products until the 1980s, when the U.S. Food and Drug Administration finally recognized its demonstrated ineffectiveness and toxicity in topical pharmaceutical products, and began to eliminate it from these. Ironically, while Thimerosal was being eliminated from topicals, it was becoming more and more ubiquitous in the recommended immunization schedule for infants and pregnant women. Furthermore, Thimerosal continues to be administered, as part of mandated immunizations and other pharmaceutical products, in the United States and globally. The ubiquitous and largely unchecked place of Thimerosal in pharmaceuticals, therefore, represents a medical crisis.

[SidDithers]

89. And now you pull out a paper from the Geiers...

You don't seriously think they've got any credibility, do you?
http://www.stltoday.com/lifestyles/health-med-fit/health/controversial-autism-doctor-mark-geier-loses-licenses-in-missouri-illinois/article_c46771ff-94bd-5fe5-9162-32d80d8140c9.html

If only I was playing anti-vax Bingo. That was the last bit of woo I needed to fill my board.

Sid

[AntiFascist]

90. Sorry but there's much more...

Prof. Haley at the University of Kentucky, 2005:

http://www.vce.org/mercury/autone/Haly.pdf

Thimerosal or merthiolate is a derivative of thiolsalicylate where ethylmercury
is attached though the sulfur or thiol group. Thimerosal was first synthesized to
make a water soluble form of ethylmercury, which had potent bacterial static properties,
but was very insoluble in water. Thimerosal is now used as a preservative or antimicrobial
in certain medicinals. This anti-microbial action is dependent on thimerosal
breaking down releasing ethyl-mercury that can penetrate cell membranes and bind to
intracellular enzymes, inhibiting them, and causing cell death. Ethylmercury, due to its
extreme hydrophobic nature will rapidly partition into the hydrophobic or lipophilic
aspects of the human body, being concentrated in certain tissues. Further, in certain
biological environments the ethyl-mercury can further break down releasing mercury
cation (Hg2+). Hg2+ is also very reactive with enzymes and proteins inhibiting their
biological functions and causing cell injury or death. For example, in 1977 a report was
presented on 13 infants with navel infections that were treated in a hospital with topical
application of merthiolate (thimerosal). Ten of the 13 died of ethylmercury toxicity.
Ethyl-mercury, as it exists in a biological system, is more rapidly partitioned into
the hydrophobic (fatty) tissues of the central nervous system and is a more potent neurotoxin
than Hg2+ based on this “partitioning factor”. It is this partitioning factor that
makes organic-mercurials such as dimethyl-mercury so neuro-toxically lethal (this is the
compound that caused the death of a Dartmouth University chemistry professor after she
was exposed to a drop or two on her gloved hand). The concern with organic-mercurials,
such as thimerosal, is that such compounds can be perceived as “pro-toxicants” just as
certain pharmaceuticals can be classified as “pro-drugs”. This means that the original
compound, e.g. thimerosal, is less reactive giving the compound time to partition into
certain areas of the body before it breaks down releasing the ethyl-mercury and then
further releasing Hg2+. However, it is not necessary for ethylmercury to break down to
Hg2+ to be toxic. Ethylmercury appears to be more toxic to enzymes than Hg2+

[SidDithers]

91. And which peer-reviewed journal was that published in?...nt

Sid

[AntiFascist]

94. Here's MedlinePlus a service of the US National Library of Medicine, NIH...

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002678.htm

Merthiolate is a mercury-containing substance that was once widely used as germ-killer and a preservative in many different products, including vaccines.

Merthiolate poisoning occurs when large amounts of the substance are swallowed or come in contact with your skin. Poisoning may also occur if you are exposed to small amounts of merthiolate constantly over a long period of time.

Poisonous Ingredient

Thimerosal

[SidDithers]

96. No, I'm asking you about the research paper you posted 2 posts ago...

In which peer-reviewed journal was that paper, by Chemistry Professor Haley, of the University of Kentucky, published.

Surely it was published in a peer-reviewed journal, right?

And Boyd Haley wouldn't have a conflict of interest here, would he? I mean, he wouldn't have been selling a chelation product as a treatment for autism, would he?

Why yes, yes he would.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/chi-autism-chemicaljan17,0,6466364.story

Actually, I should use the past tense. Professor Haley's chelation remedy was deemed unsafe by the FDA, and removed from the market.

Seriously, is this the best you can come up with? The Geiers had their medical licenses revoked for giving autistic kids Lupron. They were chemically castrating kids with their experimental treatment. Haley's giving kids an industrial chelator. Neither has conducted human clinical trials to determine if it was safe to give those products to the kids.

But this perfectly illustrates the problem with the anti-vax nutbars and their supporters. They're fucking dangerous, and they need to be stopped.

This is the anti-vax movement. This is the best you've got. How can you possibly keep defending these people? Have you no shame?

Sid

[liberal_at_heart]

103. oh my gosh I have heard about that Lupron stuff

When my son was diagnosed with autism I of course scoured the internet for information and possible treatments. When I heard about that Lupron that was it. I was done with the whole alternative treatment thing. I decided that I would stick with behavioral treatements. Much better results and much safer too.

[SidDithers]

108. My wife went on Lupron for 6 months when we were trying to get pregnant...

her endometriosis was interfering with fertilization. She basically went into menopause for 6 months. It did what it was supposed to do - we got pregnant almost right away after she came off the drug. I was at least hoping we'd have to work at it for a while

I can't imagine giving Lupron to kids as a treatment for autism.



Sid

[liberal_at_heart]

109. I'm glad it helped you have a family

[AntiFascist]

114. As usual, you attack the messengers quite well, but not the message itself...

The points I was making were simply:

1.) Merthiolate was banned as a topical treatment for being too toxic and poisonous.
2.) Ethylmercury breaks down more easily than methylmercury into an inorganic form of mercury that is highly toxic and accumulates in human tissues. Ethylmercury has a half life of 6.9 days (from the study below) until it is excreted from the system. During that time, how much of it is breaking down? Have we really studied it well enough to know?
3.) Infants and fetuses with certain genetic susceptabilities of the immune system may be more effected by the neurotoxic effects of themerosal. Have these been sufficiently studied?

Of course there are tremendous pressures on the industry not to have these issues addressed. The world needs a cheap vaccine preservative in order to produce and distribute vaccines to those children in third-world countries who most desperately need them. Perhaps there are huge stockpiles of themerosal-laden flu vaccines that will lose considerable value if people make the decision not to get vaccinated. Perhaps you should be questioning the "company" you keep, that of Eli Lilly.

Finally, do you have anything bad to say about Julia R. Barrett? According to the study below, she found that total mercury concentrations in the brains of monkeys exposed to ethylmercury (thimerosal) was 3-4 times lower than those exposed to similar amounts of methylmercury. However, the proportion of inorganic mercury of the thimerosal group was much higher (21-86%) than the methylmercury group (6-10%), indicating that it was indeed breaking down faster.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1280369/

Inorganic mercury remains in the brain much longer than organic mercury, with an estimated half-life of more than a year. It’s not currently known whether inorganic mercury presents any risk to the developing brain.
...
The researchers emphasize, however, that the risks associated with low-level exposures to inorganic mercury in the developing brain are unknown, and they describe other research linking persistent inorganic mercury exposure with increased activation of microglia in the brain, an effect recently reported in children with autism. They recommend further research focused specifically on the biotransformation of thimerosal and its neurotoxic potential.

[SidDithers]

119. You don't even understand what you're posting...

Julia Barrett didn't conduct any study. She's writing about the study conducted by Thomas Burbacher.

I see you've completely abandoned Geier and Haley now. You used them as sources, why haven't you addressed the fact that they're both completely discredited? Why did you use them as sources at all?

This is the way the anti-vaxxers typically work. When they're shown to be wrong, they just move on to the next bit of pseudoscience, and pretend their earlier pieces of evidence were never posted.

Sid

[AntiFascist]

137. As always, it seems that you are the one ignoring the scientific issues...

preferring instead to directly attack the scientists themselves.

If you look at my post #118 you'll see that I cited other research (sorry, too many studies for you?) that indicates how methylmercury is broken down to inorganic form, which would support the results reported by Julia Barrett. Since inorganic mercury has a much longer half life, and is known to bioaccumulate, this is a valid counterargument to the claims that ethylmercury in small doses is perfectly safe and gets excreted from the system.

I'm not interested in defending Haley's overall body of work (why should I be?) and I know its probably inconvenient for you when I bring in others who are following similar lines of research.

If anyone is engaging in pseudoscience, it is the defenders of themerosal who are afraid to touch any area of research calling into question their product.

[TheMadMonk]

95. Under what conditions? When fed to the bacteria it is intended to kill?

When fed or injected into complex organisms, ethyl-mercury is excreted (AS ETHYL-MERCURY) within a short period (<48 hrs IIRC) of time in the exact same quantities as it was introduced. THERE ARE NO BREAKDOWN PRODUCTS.

So now are you going to posit a completely unknown metabolic mechanism whereby the body converts organic to non-organic and back.

[AntiFascist]

118. I believe the mechanism is described here....

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF02307268

Degradation of methyl and ethyl mercury into inorganic mercury by various phagocytic cells

...
EtHg was readily degraded by human polymorphonuclear leukocytes (PMN), rat PMN, guinea-pig PMN, rabbit PMN, guinea-pig macrophages (M? , human monocytes and guinea-pig eosinophils.

Some researchers believe that the breakdown of EtHg at sites of reactive oxygen production makes it much more dangerous than methylmercury as it attacks chemically at a site of infectious damage. It would also break down more within mitrochondria.

[TheMadMonk]

129. Now produce the mechanism that reconstitutes it for excretion.

What goes in, comes out < 2 days later. UNCHANGED!

All you've got is a bunch of stressed cells in a petri dish.

[AntiFascist]

153. Here's some more research, if you care to review it...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22811707

Thimerosal-Derived Ethylmercury Is a Mitochondrial Toxin in Human Astrocytes: Possible Role of Fenton Chemistry in the Oxidation and Breakage of mtDNA

Thimerosal generates ethylmercury in aqueous solution and is widely used as preservative. We have investigated the toxicology of Thimerosal in normal human astrocytes, paying particular attention to mitochondrial function and the generation of specific oxidants. We find that ethylmercury not only inhibits mitochondrial respiration leading to a drop in the steady state membrane potential, but also concurrent with these phenomena increases the formation of superoxide, hydrogen peroxide, and Fenton/Haber-Weiss generated hydroxyl radical. These oxidants increase the levels of cellular aldehyde/ketones. Additionally, we find a five-fold increase in the levels of oxidant damaged mitochondrial DNA bases and increases in the levels of mtDNA nicks and blunt-ended breaks. Highly damaged mitochondria are characterized by having very low membrane potentials, increased superoxide/hydrogen peroxide production, and extensively damaged mtDNA and proteins. These mitochondria appear to have undergone a permeability transition, an observation supported by the five-fold increase in Caspase-3 activity observed after Thimerosal treatment.

and before you ask:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3395253/figure/fig7/

Proposed mechanism for the toxicity of organomercury. (a) As a lipophilic cation, ethylmercury will become concentrated inside astrocytes, following the plasma membrane potential of 45mV [37], by a factor of 5.6 fold, and cytosolic ethlymercury will partition into the mitochondria by a factor of 1,000 fold, its accumulation driven by the approximate 180mV mitochondrial membrane potential [25]. (b) Inside the mitochondria ethylmercury will react and cap thiols/selenols, including the cysteine residues of iron-sulfur centers. The formation of ethylmercuricthiol adducts will not only cause enzyme inhibition, but also increase the levels of free iron inside the mitochondria. (c) The release of iron catalyzes Fenton/Haber-Weiss chemistry leading to the formation of the highly oxidizing HO•. HO• has multiple targets, including sensors of the permeability transition complex and also mtDNA. High levels of HO• cause Mitoposis, leading to cytochrome c release from the mitochondria and the initiation of apoptosis.

[TheMadMonk]

163. Stressed cells in VITRO. And more goalpost shifting.

Few hours ago, this "oxidising environment" was turning organic-mercury into inorganic to do its dirty work.

100% concede that mercury is a nasty, nasty, nasty element.

Will even freely offer you a 100% valid argument for the removal of mercury based preservatives from vaccines (and all compounds of the element anywhere else) wherever possible, regardless of immediate or intermediate effect. Eventually it WILL become environmental mercury.

But in the short term, it is just so damned necessary in locations where refrigeration can't be relied upon. And we need to be very careful about, not sending a message of one medicine for white and rich, and another for dark and/or poor. Particularly not when the difference is how much "poison" there is in it.

Solar/portable refrigeration is just now begining to come into its own. Now is the time to eliminate it for practical reasons and not for reasons which amount to something very similar to superstition. Anti-vaxers jumped the gun for all the wrong reasons, and the results have been numerous whooping cough outbreaks in our own backyards, Measles too and a modern antibiotic resistant take on galloping septicemia. Overseas polio outbreaks are on the rise in Afghanistan and the more politically and religiously unstable parts of Africa. And vaccination efforts there are sometime met with absolutely irrational violence.

[AntiFascist]

167. I'm not attempting to shift goalposts...

I'm trying to zero in on the actual metabolic mechanism that interacts with ethylmercury, and how it might work in mitochondria specifically, following the other research cited.

Your third paragraph is the first argument I've seen making a valid case for the use of themerosal along with its risks (imagined or otherwise).

Since I've never been part of the "anti-vaxer" movement, I can't speak for any damage they may have caused in the past or ongoing problems they have created. My main issue is with the pro-vaxers attempting to argue that ingesting mercury is perfectly safe and that ethylmercury will be safely excreted with no side effects. The fact that merthiolate was banned due to the damage that it causes as a topical application should speak for itself. Although it's difficult to find research related to the topical use from web searches, this lawsuit provides some insight:

http://whale.to/v/elililly.html

x. The 1980’s: The FDA Recommends a Ban of Thimerosal

On January 5, 1982, the Food and Drug Administration published its advance notice of proposed rule making regarding thimerosal. Their scientific panel’s opinions and recommendations were the culmination of 5 years of research concerning the potential hazards and safety of thimerosal. The panel concluded that:

At the cellular level, thimerosal has been found to be more toxic for human epithelial cells in vitro than mercuric chloride, mercuric nitrate, and merbromim (mercurochrome).

Exhibit 34 (Exhibit ELI-512). The FDA specifically found that thimerosal was significantly more toxic for living tissue than it was for the bacteria it was supposed to kill:

It was found to be 35.3 times more toxic for embryonic chick heart tissue than for staphylococcus areus.

Id.

The FDA scientific panel’s conclusions were clear and unequivocal, focusing on thimerosal’s potential for cell damage and its significant toxicity:

The Panel concludes that thimerosal is not safe for <over-the-counter> topical use because of its potential for cell damage if applied to broken skin and its allergy potential.

Id.

It is worth noting that the FDA’s conclusions were published in the Federal Register. Eli Lilly was specifically identified as a party of interest due to its involvement with thimerosal. Id., 47 FR, at 436.

[uppityperson]

140. "intravenous"?

[TheMadMonk]

82. AND with that switch from ETHYL-mercury, to METHYL-mercury you showed your colours.

caveat at the bottom notwithstanding.

[TheMadMonk]

81. NO IT IS NOT. Several Scandinavia countries eliminated mercury years ago.

Autism rates there continue to climb in lockstep with the rest of the developed world.

[AntiFascist]

117. Well now, that's quite a feat!

I'd like to know how serveral Scandinavian countries have completely eliminated exposure to mercury! Do they keep their children in plastic bubbles?

[barbaraj]

200. Isn't the CDC sponsored Danish scientist under indictment for theft and fraud? while

Yes, the study PROVED that a child with one dose of thimerosal containing vaccine, fared out as well as one that "may or may not have had thimerosal". 95% if the thimerosal group had at least "one" shot. This does not come close to the dosing of the American or UK child. 1 in 1400 in Denmark have autism, compared to 1 in 88 born in the year 2000 in the US, we have no current numbers!! It would seem the worst case in Denmark would be a child born before 1992 receiving possibly three of these vaccines, should not be compared to the extreme dosing of the American child who received multiple times that amount. That information alone proves they are doing something right by banning thimerosal in their vaccine program.
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=197365

[barbaraj]

122. that sounds like a sensible approach

All of my children are vaccinated except for the youngest, I've never been anti-vaccine, but it's hard not to notice when the issue was brought up by a team of doctors and scientists at the first "Simpsonwood" meeting, they wiggled out, but I feel all of those scientists couldn't be wrong, and wonder where they found the wiggle room...from assurances by manufacturers, from overseas studies.?.I'm on hold.

[Rigby5]

178. Autism a problem, and so is mercury

Absolutely no one knows what causes autism and no one knows if mercury does or not. There should never have been ANY mercury in children's vaccine, and there still is some. The reaction to mercury is totally unknown and varies completely from one child to another. But we know autism has increased by almost a factor of 10, and climbing. Now it is to the point it is a lot more serious than the diseases we are vaccinating against.
I still support most vaccinations, but flu shots are not a good idea.

[SidDithers]

182. Welcome to DU...

Sid

[davidn3600]

46. Funny enough the controversy is the same with dental amalgam fillings

The FDA and ADA maintain these fillings are safe. But some recent studies show this is not the case.

http://www.naturalnews.com/029001_dental_fillings_mercury.html


It seems almost common sense. Mercury, even in small amounts, is incredibly toxic to the nervous system. You spill mercury in a school lab, the place is evacuated and guys with HAZMAT suits have to come and clean it up. Yet the government tells us injecting it in our blood and placing it in our teeth is perfectly safe. Yeah...ok.

[SidDithers]

47. And another of the science-challenged chimes in...

using naturalnews as a source.

Seriously. Fuck Mike Adams.

Sid

[davidn3600]

49. Science-challenged?

[SidDithers]

50. naturalnews...

you posted it.

Sid

[davidn3600]

53. yeah...anything that challenges the FDA is bullshit

Don't question the government in these parts...

Sorry, I forgot about that.

[SidDithers]

58. naturalnews is bullshit...

It's all a big conspiracy to the Health Ranger fans.

Health Canada: http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/q_a_thimerosal-eng.php

FDA: http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228

CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/

WHO: http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/committee/topics/thiomersal/Jun_2012/en/index.html

AAP: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/131/1/149.full


Sid

[AntiFascist]

160. One again, you are attacking the messenger...

without having anything substantive to say about the message itself.

The article was referencing a warning from the FDA, who in fact have posted this report from an advisory committee:

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/advisorycommittees/committeesmeetingmaterials/medicaldevices/medicaldevicesadvisorycommittee/dentalproductspanel/ucm236379.pdf

Abstract: The purpose of this report is to empower the Commissioner of Food and Drugs to ban the use of mercury amalgam in the United States. Mercury amalgam restorative material generally contains 50% mercury in a complex mixture of copper, tin, silver, and zinc. Mercury has been demonstrated to have damaging effects on the kidney, central nervous system, and cardiovascular system, and has been implicated in gingival tattoos. Realizing the dangers of mercury amalgam, Norway, Denmark, and Sweden have enacted legislation that has banned mercury amalgam in their countries. The American Dental Association has said for the past 150 years that the mercury in amalgam is safe and does not leak. However, no clinical studies were ever done and the Food and Drug Administration approved amalgam under a grandfather clause. Subsequent studies have shown this claim of safety not to be true. Six states in the United States have enacted legislation that requires that informed consent brochures be given to the patient in a dental office before dental restoration in undertaken. In the very least, the Food and Drug Administration should develop informed consent brochures that are used in every dental office in the United States.

Now, do you have anything bad to say about: Richard F. Edlich, MD, PhD, Samantha K. Rhoads, Holly S. Cantrell, Sabrina M. Azavedo, or Anthony T. Newkirk, DDS ?

[SidDithers]

161. naturalnews. The poster used naturalnews...

If there are all these other great studies, why are the anti-vaxxers using naturalnews, or the Geiers, or Haley?

Anyone who thinks that naturalnews is a legitimate source for accurate health information should be laughed right off DU.

Sid

[AntiFascist]

162. I could care less what you think of naturalnews...

the point that davidn3600 was making was that the ADA maintained that the filings are safe, but recent studies show this is not the case.

I just posted a report to the FDA from one of its advisory committees that backs this up word for word. Going off on your usual tangent against anti-vaxxers doesn't cut it, sorry to say.

[SidDithers]

165. And, normally, I couldn't care less about what anti-vaxxers think...

I clearly stated up thread that I think they should be marginalized and ridiculed.

Against my better judgement, I made the mistake of engaging one in this thread. That's a mistake I won't make again for a very long time.

Best of luck with your crusade.

Sid

[AntiFascist]

168. Still not addressing the issue....staying true to form n/t

[SidDithers]

169. You keep changing the issue. It's what anti-vaxxers always do...

It's laughable that you think the Geiers, or Kirby are respectable, honest researchers.

C'mon. You're just dying to post something from ageofautism. You know you are. You've hit just about every other discredited source in this thread.



Sid

[AntiFascist]

171. I've hit a report by an advisory group to the FDA..

but you seem to ignore that, blathering on and on about unrelated stuff.

[SidDithers]

173. That was, what, your 4th or 5th attempt to post "research" in this thread?...

The first few attempts worked out so well.



Comedy fucking gold.

Sid

[AntiFascist]

175. Oh Sid,

your sad attempts to change the subject just aren't working. The FDA banned mercury fillings because research indicated they are toxic....just admit it.

[SidDithers]

176. Change the subject!!...

That's rich. You've been all over the map in this thread, tossing out every bit of shit that you and Google could find, in the hope that someone would take you seriously.

Well, it ain't working.

Best part is, you can't manage to quit while you're behind. You just keep digging deeper and deeper into the woo

ageofautism. You know you're dying to use it. There's lots of stuff from Kirby here.

Sid

[AntiFascist]

180. Well, it is true that....

Last edited Wed Mar 6, 2013, 04:00 AM - Edit history (1)

Google doesn't turn up a lot about why the FDA banned the use of thimerosal as a topical treatment, which is kind of odd....almost like the web has been scrubbed or something.

I did turn this up in a law suit against your friend, Eli Lilly:

(warning: Sid Dithers does not approve of this website)

http://whale.to/v/elililly.html


x. The 1980’s: The FDA Recommends a Ban of Thimerosal

On January 5, 1982, the Food and Drug Administration published its advance notice of proposed rule making regarding thimerosal. Their scientific panel’s opinions and recommendations were the culmination of 5 years of research concerning the potential hazards and safety of thimerosal. The panel concluded that:

At the cellular level, thimerosal has been found to be more toxic for human epithelial cells in vitro than mercuric chloride, mercuric nitrate, and merbromim (mercurochrome).

Exhibit 34 (Exhibit ELI-512). The FDA specifically found that thimerosal was significantly more toxic for living tissue than it was for the bacteria it was supposed to kill:

It was found to be 35.3 times more toxic for embryonic chick heart tissue than for staphylococcus areus.

Id.

The FDA scientific panel’s conclusions were clear and unequivocal, focusing on thimerosal’s potential for cell damage and its significant toxicity:

The Panel concludes that thimerosal is not safe for <over-the-counter> topical use because of its potential for cell damage if applied to broken skin and its allergy potential.

Id.

It is worth noting that the FDA’s conclusions were published in the Federal Register. Eli Lilly was specifically identified as a party of interest due to its involvement with thimerosal. Id., 47 FR, at 436.

[SidDithers]

183. OMFG. whale.to...

You can't be serious.

Sid

[AntiFascist]

185. Ah ha, no wonder....

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2002/12/vacc-d10.html

Bush administration moves to suppress documents on vaccines

By Joanne Laurier
10 December 2002

The Bush administration asked a federal claims court on November 26 to seal documents relating to hundreds of cases of autism allegedly caused by a mercury-based preservative, thimerosal, used in childhood vaccines.

The government’s legal action comes on the heels of an insertion into the Homeland Security bill that protects Eli Lilly, the drug company giant that developed thimerosal, from lawsuits involving the additive. The bill removes all liability from the pharmaceutical industry and health officials for the injuries and death resulting from the preservative.

[SidDithers]

186. Scopie's Law. You just broke it...

Sorry, but whatever tiny shred of credibility you may have had left, after using the Geiers, Boyd Haney and David Kirby as sources, disappeared completely when you posted from whale.to.

I'm literally stunned.

Sid

[AntiFascist]

188. Well, here's a more legitimate source for the last thing I posted....

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/27/politics/27VACC.html

Justice Dept. Seeks to Seal Vaccine Papers

By SHERYL GAY STOLBERG

Published: November 27, 2002

WASHINGTON, Nov. 26 — The Bush administration asked a federal claims court today to seal documents relating to hundreds of claims that a mercury-based preservative in vaccines, thimerosal, has caused autism and other neurological disorders in children.

Lawyers for the Justice Department asked for the protective order on behalf of Tommy G. Thompson, the secretary of health and human services, whose department administers a government fund to compensate people injured by vaccines.

A department spokesman said that the law creating the fund gives the secretary control over what information is released and that the government was merely trying to preserve that right.

...
Congressional Republicans inserted a provision into the domestic security bill, signed into law on Monday by President Bush, that is intended to protect Eli Lilly, thimerosal's manufacturer, from lawsuits over the preservative. The provision would force families to seek compensation through the vaccine court instead of civil courts

.

[SidDithers]

190. Sorry. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube...

Do you even know what kind of a site whale.to is?

They proudly host the piece of filth known as The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion.

Geiers, Haney, Kirby and whale.to. That's what you've brought to this debate.

I've brought the FDA, Health Canada, the CDC, the WHO, and the AAP.

I'll leave it to the readers of this thread to decide which of us presented the stronger argument.

Sid

[AntiFascist]

191. Now that's hilarious....

Let's see, Congressional Republicans insert a clause into the domestic security bill, signed into law by President Bush, protecting Eli Lilly from lawsuits over the preservative thimerosal. Oh yeah, I'll definitely let readers of this thread come to their own conclusions over that move, and why certain parties may be defending it.

[SidDithers]

196. whale.to

Theres nothing you can link to or post to redeem yourself after using whale.to as a source.

You chose that racist, anti-gay, anti-Semitic, holocaust-denying, global-warming denying, crazy-ass fringe woo website as a source to support your argument. You think whale.to is credible. You've really shown your true colours.

Sid

[AntiFascist]

202. Actually, Sid, you're the one showing your true colors....

by continually defending the vaccine preservative manufactured by Eli Lilly and by taking the side of Republicans and the Bush Administration who have, in turn, taken incredible measures protecting Eli Lilly from related law suits. Families with autistic children, who want answers about this, have no other choice than to go to the lobbying organizations who you are continually blasting and labelling as "anti-vaxxers". Most of these people are probably not against vaccinations in general, but you can't seem to admit that and want to turn this into some sort of larger conspiracy against the vaccine industry.

[SidDithers]

204. Keep kicking the thread...

so more and more eyes can see exactly the types of websites that the anti-vaxxers use to support their fevered ramblings.

whale.to

Unbelievable.

Sid

[AntiFascist]

206. You are so obsessed with whale.to....

but have never responded about the bombshell report from the New York Times. Why is that?

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/27/politics/27VACC.html

Justice Dept. Seeks to Seal Vaccine Papers

By SHERYL GAY STOLBERG

Published: November 27, 2002

WASHINGTON, Nov. 26 — The Bush administration asked a federal claims court today to seal documents relating to hundreds of claims that a mercury-based preservative in vaccines, thimerosal, has caused autism and other neurological disorders in children.

Lawyers for the Justice Department asked for the protective order on behalf of Tommy G. Thompson, the secretary of health and human services, whose department administers a government fund to compensate people injured by vaccines.

A department spokesman said that the law creating the fund gives the secretary control over what information is released and that the government was merely trying to preserve that right.

...
Congressional Republicans inserted a provision into the domestic security bill, signed into law on Monday by President Bush, that is intended to protect Eli Lilly, thimerosal's manufacturer, from lawsuits over the preservative. The provision would force families to seek compensation through the vaccine court instead of civil courts

[SidDithers]

207. You don't realize the line you crossed when you used whale.to...

the fact you used that site at all tells me all I need to know about you.

Sid

[AntiFascist]

209. Yet you keep responding...

without even addressing the issue in the New York Times article. Gee Sid, just because I used whale.to, does that somehow invalidate the material reported by the New York Times? That sounds more like magical thinking than scientific, on your part.

[LeftishBrit]

199. It's not only 'Sid Dithers' who doesn't approve; that website is pure far-right evil!

As I commented in a post on DU2:

It promotes far-right philosophies and conspiracy theories; e.g. it has an entire section dedicated to 'The Auschwitz Hoax'.

The attitude to atheists and secularists is absolutely vile; e.g. a very nasty attack on Richard Dawkins.


Writers whose articles are posted or linked at the site include:

(1) Eustace Mullins, who as a young man acted as a researcher for Joe McCarthy and still defends him. He is also a virulent antisemite who claims that Jews drink children's blood at religious ceremonies, and were themselves the main perpretrators of the Holocaust against other Jews who refused to go to Israel.

In 'The Curse of Canaanism' he wrote:

The Khazars are the current Zionists.... They planned to dominate the world. They have come pretty close. They incarnate in every religion and into many different societies, and draw the people wherever they are into their current plan of the New World Order. They have been in one guise or another on earth since ancient times. They are the fallen angels and the minions of the off world controllers. They are the Illuminati.

All you Christians, who are in support of Israel, are in support of the lesser gods who took control of the planet so long ago, and keep you in a condition of slavery... These Zionist Jews still detest the Gentiles'

(2) G. Edward Griffin, who was a member of the John Birch Society; supported George Wallace's candidacy for president; and was a writer for his running-mate Curtis LeMay. He was a founding member of the very right-libertarian 'Freedom Force'.

(3) Henry Makow, an extreme all-round right-winger. He has expressed virulent racism, antisemitism and homophobia, and perhaps most of all sexist hostility to women (his website is called savethemales.com). Hereare some excerpts from a generally far-RW and specifically highly homophobic 2007 article:

'For centuries the Masonic central bankers who control Western society and culture have been pushing "tolerance." Why?

"The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is a notorious "forgery" that uncannily explains the reason. It says the Illuminati bankers want to "dislocate all collective forces which are still unwilling to submit to us." (Protocols, Section 5)

The four major collective forces are: Race, Religion, Family and Nation. They are the four pillars of our human identity.

How do you undermine them? Certainly a frontal attack would meet with spirited resistance. Instead you promote "tolerance" which destroys these collective forces by erasing the differences between them.

Thus you have ecumenism in religion, miscegenation in race, and regionalism (i.e. EU, NAU) in nation states. You destroy family by erasing gender differences....

. We must tolerate whatever undermines the four collective forces but have "zero tolerance" for efforts to resist or uphold them. Tolerance for Rothschild shills; zero tolerance for everyone else.

Thus Black rappers can trash Black females but Don Imus was fired for a passing remark. Zero tolerance for white heterosexual Christians.

Gay activists can plot the end of "hetero-normative" society but the EU censors Poland for "hate" because it doesn't allow public schools to promote homosexuality.
American Zionists can instigate disastrous wars, but the EU declares illegal any scrutiny of the Jewish holocaust, which might deprive Zionists of their impunity. The truth can withstand scrutiny. ...


In the one-race, one-religion, one-world government, we are to have one sex as well. The bankers are creating a homosexual society by confusing us about gender and sexuality. (This confusion is called "Diversity." )

In 1973 the Rockefellers had the American Psychological Association change the definition of homosexual from a disorder to a normal lifestyle choice.

The APA is lobbying to have homosexuals declared "a protected minority." It engages in intimidation and propaganda. It threatened with boycotts "states whose citizens passed APA disapproved laws regarding homosexuality....

..."Tolerance" shames us into giving up our humanity. Let's resist by strengthening our identities: heterosexuality, nation, religion and race...'


This is not a site to be endorsed or used as a reliable information source by progressives or indeed by anyone vaguely sane.

As someone with the username of Anti-Fascist, you should be strongly anti this site!

[AntiFascist]

201. Oh Jeez!

really you shouldn't have gone to all that trouble.

Basically all I did was search the internet for records of court cases against Eli Lilly concerning Themerosal and that's the only link that came up with details concerning the first documented court case. I doubt that the owners of that site would have the legal expertise to falsify such a document, but by all means, please do not take it as my endorsement of the site in general! Perhaps I should have downloaded the document and posted at a more neutral location, with the disclaimer that the source of the document is not known.

Both you and Sid Dithers have veered extremely far from the subject under discussion and I'm beginning to wonder what this is all really about. Why would the Bush Administration take the extreme measure of protecting Eli Lilly with a clause in the Homeland Security bill, against law suits involving themerosal, and also seal the court documents so that no one has access to the evidence presented? (this info cited from the New York Times, btw, not whale.to)

No doubt you and Dithers will blather on and on about whale.to ... really you are doing a lot more to promote their site than I ever have.

[MattBaggins]

76. Natural news is complete horseshit

[Lordquinton]

97. Watch this video

a researcher breaks down the whole issue, focusing on Natural news. He is also funny and British:

[SidDithers]

100. Thanks for posting that....

Gonna have to watch it tomorrow.

Sid

[LeftishBrit]

145. Joseph Mercola really is a right-wing idiot

Note his general views on healthcare:

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=377098398731

In particular:

As many of you know, my philosophy of government’s role in health should be extremely limited – I believe in personal responsibilities and the freedom of choice.

Forcing the purchase of insurance on every individual is not something I can agree with, adding more taxes to feed the existing broken health care system will only make the existing problems worse.

...Congress does have the ability to collect taxes under the constitution which is why it was done this way – so it should be called what it is, the Health Care Tax Bill. If they used that name however, they likely would have received more opposition.

While I am in favor of some type of system to address those in our society without health care coverage, to me it is morally reprehensible to extract money from those in the culture that have worked hard to earn it and use it to pay for drugs, which for the most part, in no way shape or form address the cause of the illness, but merely foster a dependency of more of the same..'


In other words, he is, on health issues, A MONSTER OF PURE RIGHT-WING EVIL!!!!


He has endorsed Ron Paul, and is a member of the hard-right anti-public-healthcare Association of American Physicians and Surgeons.

He is also one of the spreaders of the vile myth that abortion is a cause of breast cancer.


Jenny McCarthy is, so far as I know, just an idiot: not a left wing or right wing one.

[TheMadMonk]

79. Becasue we HAVE been there. And the idiots keep yammering away.

THERE IS NO DEMONSTRABLE LINK BETWEEN MERCURY EXPOSURE AND AUTISM. NONE. ZERO. NADA.

And even if you do manage the monumental task of getting an anti-vaxer to acknowledge that there is no measurable difference in the rate of autism between countries where mercury is used and where it isn't, they simply change arguments mid stream to: "It's the combination of too many vaccines at once."

Or, they simply fall back onto refusing to expose THEIR CHILD to the minute chance of an adverse reaction, cynically calculating that in combination with herd immunity, the odds of life threatening complications to the disease are less than the odds of an adverse reaction to the vaccine.

Not only should they be ridiculed and marginalised like drunk drivers, they should equally be prosecuted as child abusers if their child contracts a preventable disease.

[AntiFascist]

138. Has it even occured to you that there is mercury in the air that we breath?

produced by coal burning plants, such as those in China which are producing tremendous amounts of air pollution. So much, in fact, that it can even be detected as smog in California in areas where there should be no smog?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/16/chinese-struggle-through-airpocalypse-smog

The smog's most threatening aspect is its high concentration of PM 2.5 – particulate matter that is small enough to lodge deep into the lungs and enter the bloodstream, causing respiratory infections, asthma, lung cancer, cerebrovascular disease, and possibly damaging children's development.
...
Traces of China's smog have been detected as far afield as California...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-06/eye-stinging-beijing-air-risks-lifelong-harm-to-babies.html

Urban air pollution is a global problem. Researchers at Columbia University studying clogged air and pregnancy in New York found pollution reduced intelligence and increased the risk of behavioral problems when babies reached school-age.

It would really be something if these countries which have completely eliminated mercury from their environments have found some magical way to filter their air, and prevent the mercury from entering their ecosystems.

On edit: also from this EPA webpage:

http://www.epa.gov/teach/chem_summ/mercury_inorg_summary.pdf

Possible associations between autism spectrum disorders (ASD) and environmental exposure to mercury have been explored. Increased incidence of ASD was associated with mercury air concentration at the census tract level (95), and with total reported environmental mercury releases (96).

[TheMadMonk]

154. AAannnd there go the goalposts. <24 hrs ago you were blaming ORGANIC...

...mercury IN VACCINES for autism.

I did a bit of looking, even plugged in latitude as a first approximation for global INORGANIC mercury exposure, and sure enough, latitude did have some considerable bearing. So I checked up on Inuit(Eskimos) the people with arguably the highest mercury exposure on the planet. AND NOPE, no autism there.

On the other hand, there was very strong corelation between autism and sunlight exposure and/or vitamin-D production/intake. A recent study done here in Australia also found a close link between vitamin-D (or lack thereof) and allergies in children.

Other studies have found strong corelations between lack of non-lethal pathogen exposure and increased asthma risk.


Occam's razor: Fear of end of life diseases like cancer has led us to destroy lives at their very beginning.

[AntiFascist]

155. Please check my posts again...

I only claimed that ethylmercury added to the total effects of mercury exposure from all sources. People concerned about autism SHOULD be concerned about exposure to both organic and inorganic (particular from pollutants) sources of mercury. Vitamin-D may play a role as well, but can you prove definitively that mercury (from any source) plays no role whatsoever? Perhaps the Eskimos have developed some genetic tolerance to mercury.

[TheMadMonk]

164. And 25 out of 28 studies found that the mercury present in vaccines...

...had no appreciable/detectable effect on infants, children or adults. Found that it was excreted as rapidly as it was introduced. The three studies which found otherwise, were also found to be seriously flawed.

Don't deny that it's bad. Do note with considerable interest, that Inuit, exposed to high quantities of fat soluble, bioaccumulative mercuric compounds in their fat heavy arctic marine diet aren't turning out autistic children in job lots.

Other factors are at play. Parts of our environment which are absolutely demonstrably detrimental or toxic, but side effects of processes too convenient or profitable to forgoe. Or of fears that are groundless.

We wrongly fixate on the worst potential outcome under current conditions, ie the damage vaccines might do in their own right, and pay too little attention to no longer probable outcomes of yesteryear when a simple scratch could kill and under the worst circumstances, as many as 50% of children didn't make it past their 5th birthdays.

[AntiFascist]

170. What fish are the Inuit eating?

Last edited Wed Mar 6, 2013, 03:57 AM - Edit history (1)

My understanding is that salmon is one of the safer fish to eat, regarding mercury levels. Also, how many coal-burning power plants are in the area where they live, producing the mercury that accumulates in the fish food chain? If they are eating a lot of salmon in an area with relatively few coal-burning plants, then I might expect their ingest of mercury to be low.

[Occulus]

179. Finance management applications eat fish?

So that's what makes the macros work...

[AntiFascist]

181. Now THAT's funny...

much more so than certain DUer who pretends to be a comic.

[shraby]

52. I didn't mention any ingredients..only that children should be vaccinated.

[AntiFascist]

55. I don't have a problem with the OP, only Sid Dither's response...

and I would agree that children should be vaccinated in general.

I also know of too many families with autistic children, and I think we need to pay more attention to those environmental factors that could be contributing to autism.

[LeftyMom]

139. The vaccine autism connection is horseshit. But even if it weren't, I'd take a risk of autism over a

near certainty of losing a child to a preventable illness.

[AntiFascist]

141. That's perfectly understandable...

but why not also push to use better preservatives for vaccines that don't contain mercury? Do you also think its silly for pregnant women to be concerned about the amount of tuna they consume while pregnant?

[LeftyMom]

146. There's already been huge progress in eliminating or greatly reducing mercury from vaccines,

and the data don't really show any benefit. When mercury was eliminated from most childhood vaccines autism rates continued to rise, as was the case in other countries that adjusted their schedules to reduce, delay or eliminate vaccines with mercury preservatives.

I'm ALL FOR safer vaccines, but I'm not for flipping out risks that aren't supported by the data. Real safety improvements would be things like reducing the turnaround time on the flu vax so it more closely mirrors the flu stains for the season, and offering more vaccines without common allergens, so fewer kids have need to skip shots for medical reasons. Fortunately both of those things are happening, and we'll all be safer for it.

[AntiFascist]

148. The larger issue is: does mercury cause autism?

I realize that no real causal relationship has been shown between mercury from vaccines and changes in rates of autism, but the fact that incidents of autism are increasing in general could be due to other environmental factors as well. As I pointed out in another post, the EPA even cites a study that demonstrates a link between increased autism and mercury pollution in the air. The FDA has decided to be cautious and phase out the use of mercury-containing preservatives. Why not make slightly more expensive non-mercury preserved vaccines available for pregnant women and young infants?

[LeftyMom]

149. As has been explained to you ad nauseum, Mercury-free alternatives are increasingly available.

Additionally, you are continuing to conflate different forms of mercury with different excretory processes and risk profiles.

[AntiFascist]

150. and they should continue to be increasingly available...

as I've pointed out in other posts, the danger I perceive is from the accumulation of mercury from all sources, and I've pointed out research that seems to indicate a process by which ethylmercury (from thimerosal) is broken down into a more toxic form that will bioaccumulate. Those who I am debating with are pointing out that the risk is low, but they are also making the larger claim that there is absolutely no link between mercury (in any form) and autism. I'm sorry, but I find this to be outrageous, particularly in light of ongoing efforts to warn people (particularly pregnant women and parents) about mercury levels in fish, and the efforts to eliminate mercury from pollutants.

[LeftyMom]

151. No credible data, in the US or anywhere else, has suggested a link.

Since we now have DECADES of data, with different countries switching their vaccine schedules at different points, if there were a relationship somebody would almost certainly have found it. It's certainly not for lack of looking.

But by all means if you know something nobody else does, write that study up and publish away.

[AntiFascist]

152. So, LeftyMom, you are joining the ranks of those who continue to defend the use of thimerosal...

well I will join the ranks of those who are concerned about their children being exposed to any form of mercury, just to err on the side of caution, as the FDA has also decided.

[LeftyMom]

156. My personal opinion is that eliminating it is worth it if it keeps stupid people from avoiding shots

[AntiFascist]

157. Fine, whatever works....

As I've pointed out ad nauseum, I'm not against the use of vaccines, just against the use of mercury-containing substances.

[LeftishBrit]

193. Firstly, it is not all clear that autism rates are increasing. DIAGNOSIS of autism is increasing but

this may be due to changes in diagnostic criteria, as well as increased awareness of the disorder. There was a large-scale study in the UK in 2009, where people of all ages were assessed for autism according to current diagnostic criteria. Using these criteria, autism rates were the same in children, younger adults and older adults.

It's not impossible that some environmental pollutants increase the risk of autism (though the main causes appear to be genetic), but it's unlikely to be something new. Many pollutants have been around for a long time. Perhaps other environmental issues would get more investigation, if people were not constantly focusing on vaccines.

Most of the vaccines used for infants don't contain mercury anyway. At least in the UK, babies don't usually get the flu vaccine; and the vaccine recommended for children over 2 is a nasal spray that does not contain any mercury.

[AntiFascist]

208. Ok, I would agree...

that the people concerned about mercury in vaccines should also be concerned about mercury from other sources, but air pollution has been steadily increasing in the last few decades. The haze that you see when flying over the Sierra Nevadas in California has not always been there, and much of it is a direct result of pollution blowing in from China, where they have little regulation over the mercury levels created by their coal burning plants.

In a post upthread I referenced an EPA webpage that cites a study showing a link between mercury pollution in the air and ASDs. If ehthylmercury also breaks down into inorganic form in human cells, then it is possible that this would add to the effect.

Removing mercury from vaccines has been a great move, and I'm all in favor of promoting the use of vaccines without mercury.

[LeftishBrit]

142. Most vaccinations these days ARE mercury-free.

[AntiFascist]

144. and that's a good thing, right?

the FDA has been trying to phase out use of mercury (ethylmercury from thimerosal) as a preservative in vaccines, but it is still used in flu vaccines, apparently.

I'm not anti-vaccine (as the DU defenders of thimerosal would have you believe) I'm only anti-mercury.

[liberal_at_heart]

147. I don't see anybody here begging to be given mercury. They just don't believe that mercury causes

autism. I will go with what the scientific community has come to a consensus on. And the consensus is that is does not cause autism. I do not believe vaccines had a hand in causing my son's autism.

[AntiFascist]

159. I'm sorry to hear about your son...

and I also know of other families that have children with autism.

I would encourage people to pay attention to reports such as the following:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/new-study-mercury-other-t_b_139269.html

Meanwhile, at least three peer-reviewed studies (including one funded by the CDC and published in an NIH journal) have shown an association between inorganic mercury (i.e., from coal) and an increased risk for autism. And recent Federal data show that the percentage of Americans with detectable levels of inorganic mercury in their blood increased eightfold between 2000 and 2004.

Unlike what others may be trying to sell you, this is not pseudoscience.

[SidDithers]

166. Kirby. LOL...

Sid

[zappaman]

177. For anyone wanting to know about David "Bullshitter" Kirby.

Here's one of many articles...

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/02/26/stupid-cubed-david-kirby-rfk-jr-and-gene/

[SidDithers]

184. The poster just used whale.to up thread...

Just when I thought the bottom of the barrel had been scraped with the appearance of Kirby.

Seriously. whale.to.

Sid

[zappaman]

187. !!!

[AntiFascist]

189. Only because of the Bush Administration....

sealing the documents. But you probably knew that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/27/politics/27VACC.html

Justice Dept. Seeks to Seal Vaccine Papers

By SHERYL GAY STOLBERG

Published: November 27, 2002

WASHINGTON, Nov. 26 — The Bush administration asked a federal claims court today to seal documents relating to hundreds of claims that a mercury-based preservative in vaccines, thimerosal, has caused autism and other neurological disorders in children.

Lawyers for the Justice Department asked for the protective order on behalf of Tommy G. Thompson, the secretary of health and human services, whose department administers a government fund to compensate people injured by vaccines.

A department spokesman said that the law creating the fund gives the secretary control over what information is released and that the government was merely trying to preserve that right.

...
Congressional Republicans inserted a provision into the domestic security bill, signed into law on Monday by President Bush, that is intended to protect Eli Lilly, thimerosal's manufacturer, from lawsuits over the preservative. The provision would force families to seek compensation through the vaccine court instead of civil courts

[LeftishBrit]

192. Yes, it is, on general principle

I do not know what discussion you're referring to here; but no one would think it a bad idea to reduce mercury in vaccines, or (the much larger quantities) in food as much as possible.

It is possible to ask for flu vaccines that don't contain mercury.

However, much of the vaccine debate has not been about mercury anyway. The MMR, target of a lot of the attacks, never contained mercury.
.

[barbaraj]

210. Last year the pediatric flu shot was

thimerosal free, as was the one available to pregnant women, this year's 2012/2013 had the thimerosal back in!!
lab animals have long been the standard in science... when was the shift to epidemiological and anecdotal case studies?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22015705

[Zoeisright]

3. Yep. A huge public health success

that is being undermined by the ignorant. We as a country have completely forgotten how devastating these completely preventable diseases can be.

[FSogol]

4. K & R. n/t

[hedgehog]

5. Kick!

[XemaSab]

6. I was at a pioneer cemetery near here

and one family lost three children within a few months, and two of them within weeks.

I would guess that something like diptheria went through.

Terribly, terribly sad.

[kaiden]

7. My grandson doesn't attend grade school anymore because of the anti-vaxxers --

and parents who are just plain lazy. He's in 4th grade, has had a trache and cornea transplant since birth, and cannot be around kids who are potential carriers for any disease. Too many parents use grade schools as babysitters so, instead of keeping kids home when they are sick, off the kids go to school.

[onehandle]

8. I got a number of vaccines and boosters just last week.

Medicate me, Doctor.

[SwissTony]

9. Kick. Can't stand anti-vaccers. n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

10. Herd immunity is your friend.

[shraby]

11. When enough do not have vaccinations there is no herd immunity.

[AtheistCrusader]

12. That was my point.

You need to have vaccination rates in the upper 80% to realize the true benefits.

[shraby]

13. Some people and apparently some doctors haven't let that message soak into their

thick skulls. It can't be said often enough.

[Chellee]

15. The problem is that we have been so successful.

Previous generations vaccinated, and disease was mostly contained.

We are so far removed from the last really big pandemic that people are far more afraid of the aftermath of traumatic injuries than disease. You get sick, you take medicine. They don't understand that sometimes medicine can't keep up. Younger Americans haven't witnessed death from infectious disease on a grand scale, so they can't comprehend the devastating possibilities.

K & R

[prole_for_peace]

131. In one article I read a few months ago

an anti-vaxer was saying that polio and small pox no longer existed. Sure this person's family doesn't come into contact with someone from Nigeria where polio is making a comeback.

I have a co-worker that won't vaccinate his kids and he travels all over the world with them. That may not end well for his family and any other family with small kids that comes into contact with his kids

[dflprincess]

158. Small pox has been eradicated in the general population

per the CDC it exists in two "approved laboratories" in the U.S. and Russia.

Currently the only people the CDC recommends get the vaccine are:

When There is NO Smallpox Outbreak—
You should get the smallpox vaccine if you—
•Are a lab worker who works with smallpox or viruses like it.
•Are a member of a smallpox response team.

Naturally, they have to mention that there is always the threat of terra-ists getting their hands on the virus - that's pretty much the only way they'd expect there would be outbreak now.

There is a very long list of people who should not get the vaccine - including, but not limited to, those with high blood pressure or cholestoral and adults who had a close family member who had a heart condition before age 50. Apparently side effects in adults can include pericarditis and myocarditis. (Though some of those contraindications might change if there was actually an outbreak.)

The vaccine is not required before overseas travel.

The most recent updates I saw on the page were dated 2009.

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/vaccination/

[magellan]

14. It's been a misery

...watching a good friend of mine turn into an anti-vaxer. This has coincided with him becoming a libertarian and Alex Jones listener. Texas, dontcha know.

otoh diphtheria saved my grandma's life. If she hadn't come down with it and missed the church picnic, along with her mom and sister, they would've likely died in the General Slocum disaster.

[Thor_MN]

60. Assuming that she was young (prior to giving birth to your parent)

it saved you too...

[magellan]

71. Yep

She was only 8 at the time. It's a little frightening to think that if there had been a vaccination for diphtheria back then, my father and I wouldnt be here now.

Of course I don't recommend avoiding vaccinations on the off chance your ferry might burn and sink.

[Gman]

16. Not vaccinating kids is child abuse and neglect

There's no excuse for being stupid in this.

[840high]

17. rec.

[NRaleighLiberal]

18. Kick and Rec. n/t

[wildeyed]

19. I have always considered childhood vaccinations to be a great gift of modern medicine.

Antibiotics are amazing too. Even if they are becoming less effective, they still work much of the time. There was a 50% child mortality rate back in the bad old days. Now it is uncommon to even know someone who has lost a child.

[adieu]

22. Yes, this is the primary

driver of the global "population explosion". It's not that people having more kids, it's that fewer kids, and adults are dying due to diseases and other medically treatable reasons.

On the whole, I prefer that we have a population explosion because it's an indicator that we're wiping out things that make us sick physically, as well as emotionally.

[wildeyed]

24. I prefer that my children live.

Seriously. I look at them and imagine one or both dying and the grief that would cause. And then image that grief was common and expected. So glad I am unlikely to experience that!

[csziggy]

80. There are still pockets of people that have high child mortality

Wakhan Corridor
Stranded on the Roof of the World
Afghanistan’s Kyrgyz nomads survive in one of the most remote, high-altitude, bewitching landscapes on Earth. It’s a heavenly life—and a living hell.

<SNIP>
To reach the nearest existing road—the road the khan wants extended into Kyrgyz territory—requires at least a three-day journey through the mountains, on a trail where a fall could be deadly. The closest significant town, one with shops and a basic hospital, is an additional day’s travel. This intense isolation is the reason the Kyrgyz suffer from a catastrophic death rate. There’s no doctor, no health clinic, few medicines. In the harsh environment, even a minor ailment—a sniffle, a headache—can swiftly turn virulent. The death rate for children among Afghan Kyrgyz may be the highest in the world. Less than half live to their fifth birthday. It is not unusual for parents to lose five children, or six, or seven. Women die at an alarming rate while giving birth.

I met one couple, Halcha Khan and Abdul Metalib, who had 11 children. “Every year,” said Abdul, “one would die.” They died as infants, as toddlers, as little kids. Many likely died from easily treatable diseases. Each was wrapped in a white shroud and buried in a shallow grave. “That cut me into pieces,” said Abdul. To numb the pain, Halcha and Abdul turned to opium. The drug’s easy availability has created an epidemic of addiction among the Kyrgyz. Only one of their children, a son, survived to age five. Then he too passed away.

Photograph by Matthieu Paley
High above the tree line, a winter caravan of traders relies on sure-footed yaks to traverse a treacherous path down to a lower valley. At altitudes above 14,000 feet, winters in the Little Pamir last eight months or more, and snow can fall even in summer.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/02/wakhan-corridor/finkel-text

[wildeyed]

134. Heartbreaking.

In many places, simple diarrhea is still a child killer.

[csziggy]

135. I know I have read letters from ancestors about child deaths

One from an ancestor of my husband, talks about how many children in their small community had died from measles. A student at a school (probably a Quaker school since he was a strong Quaker) had brought the illness into the community and it ran through the entire town, children and adults. That would have been in the 1840s well before vaccinations.

I'm old enough that I had classmates who had the effects from polio that affected their ability to get around. The brother of a friend of mine had brain damage because of heart problems caused because his mother had contracted measles while she was pregnant with him. I had whooping cough that still affects my lungs and also had chicken pox which opens me to the possibility of having shingles - something that most children now don't have to worry about if their parents get the vaccinations to prevent those illnesses.

I just don't understand why parents would not want to protect their children from these things!

[wildeyed]

136. I sent my kids to a progressive preschool.

It was horrifying how few of the kids there were vaccinated. I loved every other thing about it, but that always struck me as the height of selfishness, people not getting their kids inoculated and exposing everyone else to risk if there was an outbreak. I would basically melt away when the topic came up since I was so out numbered and so vehemently pro-vaccine. I read seriously and read history often, so I guess the risks seem more real to me, even though I did not personally see them.

[friendly_iconoclast]

20. Stupidity kills, and sometimes it isn't just the stupid that get killed...

[adieu]

21. I don't know if middle schools

teach about major health issues. But back when I was going to middle school in the 70s, we had assignments to understand and learn about diphtheria, cholera, the plague, polio, measles, small pox and so on.

Now, because we rarely get them or see them, it's like they were never with us. The effective eradication of those major diseases is an undisputed win for the science community.

[Hekate]

86. We've raised a population that is illiterate when it comes to public health issues

I've been at DU for over 10 years now, and can remember some serious vaccination flame wars in the early days concerning things like smallpox and polio, measles and whooping cough. This at a site where the average education level is higher than average!

If classes in Health are considered extras to be cut from the budget, if Science classes are considered "too hard" -- what can we expect? We will certainly end up with a certain segment of the population nearly as ignorant as peasants to whom the Black Plague was God's punishment and a harbinger of the End of Days, rather than a disease of filth carried by fleas and rats.

We've got way too many parents who have not one clue about the miracle that is vaccination, who have not one clue about the graveyards full of children who never had a chance to grow up, or who were left crippled by the wayside.

You can teach public health issues in nearly any class and make it interesting: Literature (Dickens and tuberculosis; Mark Twain and the death of a child from "membranous croup; Mrs. Mike); History; Science; Health.

It really, really pisses me off.

[zappaman]

23. Kick and rec! n/t

[on point]

25. Personal choice perhaps, but then they should be quarantined until inoculated!

Radical suggestion perhaps. But this is worse than classic free rider problem because they are actively hurting others

[Bay Boy]

26. If I (or my kids) are vaccinated...

...why does it matter if my neighbor isn't? Shouldn't we be immune to whatever disease we got the shots for.

[cthulu2016]

36. Yes... but in a larger sense, No

There is a vaccination failure rate that we don't even notice because of herd immunity.

If everyone was exposed to measles, for instance, we would find that a certain percentage of the vaccinated populace would still get measles.

But they don't because even if the vaccine didn't work for them there is not usually measles around to get -- a state created only by mass vaccination.

Your neighbors are a threat even if you're vaccinated and healthy.

And what if you are not healthy? There are newborns and people on chemo and others who cannot get vaccinated. We rely on mass vaccination to keep the most vulnerable safe by making the disease itself quite rare.

Also, if one doesn't like vaccines a good way to have to take fewer vaccines is for everyone to take them. Think of the billions and billions of smallpox vaccines and booster shots that people have not had to take.

One generation of eventual parents took the vaccine so their eventual children would not have to. (Though not may people thought of it in those terms at the time, since avoiding smallpox is usually a bigger personal priority than avoiding vaccines.)

[Bay Boy]

38. Thank you...

...that made sense.

[azurnoir]

27. anyone ever read Mrs Mike?

yes it is a fictionalized account but OTOH the parts where women were speaking of their 1rst, 2nd, or even 3rd families the cause was their children dying from disease were not fiction, diphtheria was a major killer back then and if allowed could be again

[Cleita]

31. Yes, I loved that book.

It was my inspiration to go live in the wilderness when I was able to. But it was sad when she lost all her children to an epidemic and she wasn't even twenty years old yet.

[azurnoir]

35. it's sort of like how quickly we forget

I'm 56 and both of my parents lost at least one sibling to childhood diseases that we vaccinate against now, same with my SO, but these days polio, pertussis, diphtheria are things we just read about, as were bed bugs but look at what's happened with them

[catchnrelease]

87. Heartbreaking

I was doing some genealogy research a few years ago and came across records of 3 children in my paternal grandfather's family that I had never heard anything about. Then I found an obituary saying that the family's three youngest children had died of scarlet fever all in one week. I think they were between 2 and 8. That just stunned me. I thought how heartbroken the parents must have been with that much grief. It had to be brutal.

[Hekate]

98. I read it when I was a girl, and never forgot the graveyard

"That's my first family. And that's my second family," said the middle aged woman to young Mrs. Mike.

That's a hell of a hard life, knowing that you absolutely will lose at least some, if not all, of your children at a young age.

[Ilsa]

28. Not vaccinating should be a rare event, based

on specific scientific criteria, such as prior adverse reaction within the immediate family or child.

This hysteria needs to end. Public schools help lead the way in making certain children are vaccinated against deadly and debilitating diseases.

[xchrom]

29. Du rec. Nt

[Cleita]

30. Back when I was in kindergarten in 1945, one day we were taken to

the school auditorium and lined up. There were a couple of nurses there. One by one we were all immunized for diphtheria because there was an epidemic looming. Then they sent us home with a note for our parents stating that we had gotten shots for diphtheria. I guess they didn't need permission back then for what was considered a public health problem. Other than small pox vaccinations, which were required when you traveled to foreign countries, it's the only immunizations that I received in my lifetime until recently. Nowadays, I get flu and pneumonia shots, because who needs those diseases when you are over seventy years old.

When I was a child though, I went to school with other children, who had lost a brother or sister to a debilitating disease like typhus or polio. It seemed back then that it was normal to lose a child or two to infectious diseases because there weren't a whole lot of vaccines for them. It's terribly sad for the parents. When I was in high school I lived with a family for six months, who had lost a daughter my age to typhoid fever. I could tell the way they treated me that I had sort of filled the void there. The mother even wanted to give me one of the family heirlooms because she wanted to "keep it in the family". She had forgotten that I wasn't even related to them.

[Hekate]

102. The line for polio vaccinations ran all across the playground at my elementary school...

... to the classroom with the nurses, the year polio vax was available for mass use. There must have been hundreds of parents there -- all of whom had lived in terror through the last great polio epidemic of 1954. And it was the last one, thanks to the work of Drs. Sabin and Salk.

My Gods, every single school I ever went to had a few children crippled from polio... Heavy braces, no wheelchairs. And they were the lucky ones, because plenty of kids died.

In my teens I met a girl about my age who had gotten mumps encephalitis. I had had mumps, along with my brother and sister. We were miserable for awhile, then got better. She didn't; she was blind and walked unsteadily with braces and crutches.

My kids were born in the mid-70s and there was no way on Gods' green earth that I would not have had them vaccinated.

[SidDithers]

106. +1...

I'm proud to wear the polio vaccine "scar" on my shoulder. I remember my kids asking me what it was, a few years ago. Gave me an opportunity to talk about childhood diseases and how lucky we are to live in the time that we do.

Sid

[Hekate]

110. If it's dime-sized, it's probably a smallpox vaccine scar

I had an amazing experience at a Senior's Health Fair a couple of years ago. I went for my flu shot and the old nurse said to the young nursing student, "Look at this on her (my) upper arm. It's from her smallpox vaccination, and you won't be seeing those any more."

And I realized it was true. My kids didn't have to have it because it was wiped out -- actually wiped out -- by the time they were born in the '70s.

When I was at university in the '60s one of the students there was a young man from Afghanistan who was terribly scarred across his face by having had smallpox in his home country, where it had been endemic.

And now it is gone. What a miracle.

[SidDithers]

113. Yeah, you're right...

smallpox it was. I was born in 1967, so this would have been around 1972 or so.

A miracle of good science.

Sid

[Cleita]

112. Yes, polio was an awful scourge before they found the vaccine.

It was close to AIDs in it's devastation before being brought under control.

[Comrade_McKenzie]

32. Anti-science attitudes must be shot down on both sides of the political spectrum. nt

[SidDithers]

48. And they're on prominent display upthread...nt

Sid

[Hekate]

104. But some of us are fighting back.

We live in the fact-based universe.

[Ian David]

51. But what if one of Mr. Taugher's children had grown-up to become...

HITLER?!?!

OMG, why would you want Hitler to not die of Diptheria?

:Sarcasm:

[shraby]

56. I could put similar posts on almost every day of the year. I run across those types

all the time. If not diptheria, it's measles, typhoid, consumption (t.b.), small pox, etc. Many people died from blood poisoning from a small scratch which is almost unheard of now.
Many times children weren't even named right away because of the high rate of death at birth or shortly thereafter.
It was a whole different world back in the pre-1900 days and even up into the 1930s.

[liberal_at_heart]

57. my autistic son has had all of his vaccinations

When he was small it was tough. He has sensory issues that were much worse when he was smaller. So, getting vaccinations was very painful for him. But I knew for his sake and the sake of everybody else he needed to get his vaccinations.

[ninjanurse]

63. Just Missed the Worst of Polio

I remember as a child in the early 60's lining up to be vaccinated against polio. As an adult I met people who didn't get the vaccine in time. A man deaf for life, a man on crutches for life, a woman losing mobility to post-polio syndrome. That's when people who worked like athletes to get their strength back start to lose it in middle age. Terrifying disease.
Each vaccine should be evaluated for safety and effectiveness, but vaccination as a way to fight disease is one of the best strategies we have.

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. Is "crowd" the appropriate term for a group of strawmen?

I doubt there's "a crowd" of DU'ers who generally consider vaccinations to be a bad idea.

[SidDithers]

67. DU has it's share of anti-vaxxers...

though fewer than there used to be. Some of the more prominent ones have eaten granite pizza for crossing the Crazy Talk line of the TOS.

Sid

[lumberjack_jeff]

68. Your signature graphic is emblematic of this basic crusade.

Hey! All you zombies out there! Don't eat brains!

The rest of you? Recommend this thread to remind the zombies in our midst to stop eating brains.

[Starry Messenger]

69. k&r

This post is dedicated to my mom's cousin who fell ill from polio as a young girl and has struggled with the results her whole life. She got it swimming in the 1950's.

[reACTIONary]

70. +100! K&R (NT)

[SidDithers]

77. Orac on the anti-vaccine movement...

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/10/20/whither-the-anti-vaccine-movement/

I found it in an article that was just published. It’s by Anna Kirkland at the University of Michigan entitled The Legitimacy of Vaccine Critics: What Is Left after the Autism Hypothesis? I don’t agree with everything in the article, but it’s a good primer on the recent history of the anti-vaccine movement and speculates on what will come next now that the hypothesis that vaccines cause autism has been so thoroughly discredited.

Let’s dispose of one thing right away that I don’t particularly like about the article:

The last dozen years have seen a massive transnational mobilization of the legal, political, and research communities in response to the worrisome hypothesis that vaccines could have a link to childhood autism and other developmental conditions. Vaccine critics, some already organized and some composed of newly galvanized parents, developed an alternate world of internally legitimating studies, blogs, conferences, publications, and spokespeople to affirm a connection. When the consensus turned against the autism hypothesis, these structures and a committed membership base unified all the organizations in resistance. This article examines the relationship between mobilization based on science and the trajectory of legitimacy vaccine criticism has taken. I argue that vaccine critics have run up against the limits of legitimate scientific argument and are now in the curious position of both doubling down on credibility-depleting stances and innovating new and possibly resonant formulations.

While Kirkland gets a lot right in her article, I don’t like the way she writes, “when the consensus turned against the autism hypothesis.” The reason, of course, is that the scientific consensus was never for the autism hypothesis to begin with. In strictly scientific terms, the very most you can say about the vaccine-autism hypothesis is that for a brief period of time scientists considered it not sufficiently implausible (barely) to ignore completely, particularly given that the fear mongering of the anti-vaccine movement was having an effect on public confidence in the vaccine program. Over the last 15 years, numerous studies have been done, and none of them performed by reputable scientists using rigorous methodology have found a hint of a trace of a whiff of an association between vaccines and autism. As I’ve said before, the vaccine-autism hypothesis is no more! It has ceased to be! It’s expired and gone to meet its maker! It’s a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! If anti-vaccinationists hadn’t nailed it to the perch it’d be pushing up the daisies! Its metabolic processes are now history! It’s off the twig! It’s kicked the bucket, it’s shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin’ choir invisibile!! The vaccine-autism hypothesis IS AN EX-HYPOTHESIS!!

To which, the anti-vaccine movement always replies, “It’s pinin’ for the fjords.”

snip

It’s a shame Kirkland apparently didn’t realize that, but on the other hand she did an excellent job of pointing out how marginalized the anti-vaccine movement has become. It’s rapidly on its way to joining creationists far out on the fringe.

Great science writing, and pretty much puts a dagger into the heart of what's left of the anti-vaxxers. He skewers Wakefield pretty good too. Take a few minutes and read the whole thing.

Sid

[drm604]

78. K&R

[Brigid]

83. People today forget that this used to happen all too frequently . . .

In the bad old days before vaccines. Please, get your kids vaccinated -- and for good measure, ask your doctor if your own shots ate up to date.

[demosocialist]

84. rec

[ecstatic]

92. How many people don't vaccinate?

I'd imagine that at least 98% of parents get their kids vaccinated.

[liberal_at_heart]

93. there are some diseases actually coming back

My state just went through a horrible pertusus outbreak. People just assume that these diseases are gone forever and that we don't have to vaccinate anymore.

[Hekate]

107. Whooping cough (pertussis) is back

Adults whose immunization has worn off. Babies, who can die from it. Schoolkids whose parents didn't see the need...

[Spider Jerusalem]

111. it isn't just "how many people don't vaccinate"

it's "how many people in a given area don't vaccinate?"

The herd immunity threshold is around 85-92% vaccination rate; if it falls below that you start seeing minor epidemics of things like rubella and so on.

[HiPointDem]

172. actually coverage rates are at all-time highs, and in many of the cases that the 'anti-anti-vaxxers'

post to 'prove' how crazy people are contributing to resurgence of disease, the cases are of kids or people who had been vaccinated.



but they never pay attention to the details and don't like it when you bring up these fine points.

somebody has a stake in proving there's some kind of epidemic of non-vaccination.

[SidDithers]

174. Oh, Hannah. Now you're defending the anti-vaxxers?...

Sid

[Spider Jerusalem]

99. The problem is that vaccination has been TOO successful

the increase in overall life expectancies in developed countries over the past century or so? That's mostly thanks to reduced childhood mortality from better neo-natal care, and vaccinations. Kids just don't die of rubella or pertussis or scarlet fever or polio or diphtheria anymore. Average life expectancy at birth in the USA in 1900 was 46 years for men and 48 years for women; now it's about 30 years longer, and most of that increase is thanks to greatly reduced childhood mortality.

[SidDithers]

101. Yup...

and we're two or three generations removed from the days of frequent childhood deaths. It's so bloody rare today for someone you know to lose a child to illness. Before vaccinations, it was all too common.

We've lost our respect for how deadly these diseases can truly be.

Sid

[Archae]

105. I know a family...

My own.

Two parents.
5 children. (including me)
7 grandchildren.
7 great-grandchildren.

All had vaccinations, the whole spectrum.

*NO* autism.
None.

[Hulk Smash]

116. Thanks, Sid, for beating the tar out of the loony anti-vaxxers

It is the willfully ignorant, anti-science, anti-intellectualism of these people who have Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman and their ilk as their heros that are the enemies of reason. They are what the Dark Ages were all about. We cannot let them win and regress to where idiocy and mysticism are celebrated and guys like Galileo are pilloried.

[barbaraj]

120. Worse are the odd doctors and scientists

among them a nobel prize winner, several gastroenterologists, two neurosurgeons, (one from Hopkins) several pediatricians, the ex head of NIH, who have committed professional suicide daring to address this publicly..while imagining it's a real health concern!

[SidDithers]

121. How about some names, so we know who you're talking about...nt

Sid

[barbaraj]

123. I hate to do this since they are the focus of

pharmaceutical propaganda..starting with Luc Montagnier..
followed by Blaylock and Poling and Bernadine Healy..
Wakefield and collegues, however Walker-Smith had regained his position
An entire country wide list of DAN pediatricians,
and more..it's not difficult to add to these, yet all references to them before their position on autism seem to suggest brilliant scientists, all mentions after,as I said, show a kind of professional suicide by autism /vaccine stands

[SidDithers]

126. ...

Just what DU needs. More woo peddlers.

Wakefield? Seriously? A victim of "pharmaceutical propaganda"?

Comedy fucking gold.

Sid

[barbaraj]

127. I'm not sure , but suspect you haven't followed

Wakefield's career , nor read the volumes of valid studies that continue to give background for current and future science in the area of gastroenterology. One paper on case history, which Murdoch and his minnions were paid to take down does not serve as testament to his career.
As the Nobel Prize scientist,Montagnier stated, " Presumably, vaccination, especially vaccination against multiple antigens, could be a trigger of a pre-existing pathological situation in some children. The vaccine denialists are not the courageous individuals who raise the problems of vaccination accidents, but are those people who deny the existence of these tragic accidents. The latter believe in the dogma “vaccines are good”, period. They are forgetting the Hippocratic oath: primum, non nocere. First, do no harm."

You may or may not be interested in the man behind the destruction of Wakefield.http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/feb/02/james-murdoch-in-glaxosmithcline-role

[SidDithers]

130. An actual, live Wakefield defender...

right here on DU.



Sid

[zappaman]

133. Not a surprise...

The woo here is sometimes strong.

[riverwalker]

124. working on my family tree

really brings this home. Countless times I will follow a family of five, suddenly becomes a family of three. What happened? Scarlet fever, diptheria, pneumonia. Always 2-3 children lost. Imagine the terror in a mothers heart at the sound of a cough, knowing this child could be next.

[barbaraj]

125. exactly! and that's why we need clean ,safe vaccines

this is not 1945, we need to push and fight for effective , "safer" vaccines, when Luc Montagnier, the nobel prize winner jumped on the autism /vaccine bandwagon, he did not do it because he hated vaccines, he did so because he was finding "dirt" , pathogens, dna debris, clearly a potentially deadly soup that could be cleaned up with scientific effort. It's not in the mind of a scientist to deny hope for the future of progress, it is in the minds of corporate pharmaceuticals to hasten to market a product that could be improved upon , with refusal to do so.... with profit margins as the incentive.

[jeff47]

143. There's one gigantic hole in your analysis

Vaccines are already safe.

he did so because he was finding "dirt" , pathogens, dna debris, clearly a potentially deadly soup that could be cleaned up with scientific effort.

Using his process.

The guy was selling something. Yet you think it's the pharmaceutical companies that are the problem?

Quiz: Which makes a pharmaceutical company more money: A one-time vaccine, or the drugs to manage a life-long illness.

Big pharma hates vaccines. That's why they're not spending much R&D money on developing new ones. They'd rather you have to take a pill for your entire life than immunize you at 6 years old.

[HiPointDem]

194. Vaccines are a steady business; regular immunizations mandated by the government and payment

guaranteed by the government.

You can't 'take a pill' for measles.

[jeff47]

197. You can take a pill to treat the symptoms of many diseases we immunize for

For example, victims of polio require lots of drugs for the rest of their lives. Not to treat polio, but to treat it's after-effects.

And common diseases provide plenty of steady business. Pharma makes a ton more on treating the flu instead of immunizing against it.

[HiPointDem]

203. baloney. my stepfather had polio as an adult, leaving him with a permanent limp, and never

took any drugs for 'its after-effects'.

there are no drugs for most of the common childhood diseases.

vaccines = steady reliable profits.

Unlike several life science sectors that felt the impact of the global crisis, the human vaccines market remained resilient to the global economic recession. Irked by weakened pipelines and growing pressure from patent expiries, the big pharma majors such as AstraZeneca and Pfizer found vaccines industry as safe avenue to invest and register guaranteed revenues. Vaccines register a higher profit margin in comparison to generic drugs, but lower than branded ones. Regional players from fast developing vaccine markets, such as India and China, are primarily engaged in meeting demands of public supply for routine and immunization vaccines. Driven by global H1N1 outbreak, Pandemic Influenza Vaccines registered high growth in 2009. The H1N1 pandemic increased sales of vaccine makers, including GlaxoSmithKline, Sanofi-pasteur, Novartis, Baxter, and MedImmune.

Human vaccines, earlier considered as a low profit yielding business, have transformed into cash cows for global pharmaceutical giants. Patents for human and animal vaccines accepted by European and US patent authorities totaled nearly 250 in 2007. Prophylactic vaccines represents the biggest earner in human vaccines market. However, therapeutic vaccines market is still untapped. Therapeutic vaccines is projected to grow rapidly over the coming years, subject to the regulatory approvals. Companies, both established and upcoming, are investing a major chunk of research resources into development of therapeutic vaccines capable of fighting diseases such as cancer, AIDS, and other diseases. Encouraging results, such as enhanced stability, production scalability, and immune response have also been reported in the field of DNA-related vaccines. Addiction vaccines are also forecast to witness phenomenal growth.

http://www.dddmag.com/news/2011/01/vaccine-markets-refuge-big-pharma

[MadrasT]

195. I found this, too, over and over again.

One set of my great great grandparents had 7 children in the late 1800s. Only 3 survived to adulthood.

Another set of great great grandparents had 3 sons named Harry (after the father). The first Harry died, then they named a new baby Harry. The second Harry died, then they named a new baby Harry. The third Harry grew up to be my great grandpa. There were other children they lost, too.

I am cautious about vaccinations, but writing them off entirely would be a big mistake.

[AllyCat]

128. Diphtheria is a dreadful killer. Thank goodness it is eradicated from this hemisphere.

[SidDithers]

132. Kick...nt

Sid

[SidDithers]

198. Kick...nt

Sid

[bobclark86]

205. Where can I find the original online?

Anywhere? My mother is in college for a medical billing and transcription certificate, and she'd like to use it in a paper she's working on blasting anti-vaxers.

[SidDithers]

211. I found it here...

not sure if that's the same source that the OP used, but the record is the same:

http://2manitowoc.com/60Kobit.html#taugherfourchildren

Sid

[bobclark86]

212. Yup, that's it.

Thank you!