Oh well no more vacations in Utah if this shit gets passed

[Union Label]

Rep. John Mathis, R-Vernal, is sponsoring H.B. 76, which allows essentially any law-abiding citizen over the age of 21 in the state to carry a gun, openly or concealed.

Utah would effectively become a "constitutional carry" state if the measure is approved. That term refers to a state where carrying a concealed weapon isn't restricted by law.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=757&sid=23828129

I'd rather not get shot by some rethug with his metal penis. I really liked Moab but not with this fucking shit.

[mokawanis]

1. My version of a Utah vacation

is to head into a wilderness area for 5 or 6 days and hope I don't encounter any humans (the most dangerous critters on the planet).

As for the proposed legislation - Mathis is an asshole, and a dangerous one at that. People who think like he does get other people killed.

Of course a lot of gun-nuts will heartily endorse his lethal stupidity.

[RKP5637]

4. I'm getting so I feel more comfortable the less humans, the most dangerous critters on the planet,

are around me.

[Az_lefty]

2. sorry to hear Utah is following Arizona

The state where I live under the ctazy party of Maricopa county

[Kolesar]

3. That's how the gun industry expands their market for their gun

Utah has a low crime rate, you don't need a gun, but removing restrictions makes more people want to carry them.

[RKP5637]

5. Yep, it's all about $$$$$, guns and ammunition, big sellers. So sad a product to push. Frankly,

I think drugs are far less of a threat.

[Union Label]

6. your right about that

I know drugs are lot less of a threat the only thing thats threatened when we smoke weed is my chip stash.

[RKP5637]

44. LOL

[krispos42]

7. If the sight of guns scares you that much...

...then you should probably not go. Your freakout may scare somebody and cause the exact situation you fear.

I mean, Utah's murder rate is 1.9, less than half the national average. But apparently the idea that people can be armed, and not be bloodthirsty psychopaths itching for a chance to legally kill somebody, is foreign to you.


Do you really think that in Utah, which already had a pretty permissive concealed-carry law, all of a sudden there is going to be a vast increase of people carrying concealed? And that they're all going to be Dirty Harry wannabes?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

8. Nope, sorry

The exact situation the poster fears can ONLY be caused by someone with a gun. You guys are really going to have to start owning your fetish; quit blaming the rest of us for wanting a peaceful, less threatening, less lethal world.

[krispos42]

20. Well, that's pretty obvious

The poster fears, allegedly, he'll be shot by some knuckle-dragging redneck dreaming about shooting somebody legally. That exact situation requires a gun. If he was fearful of drowning, that situation would logically require water of some sort.

The question is "how rational is that fear?" It's not very rational. It's like the people who are afraid to fly, so they drive. You and I both know that car travel is far more dangerous per mile traveled than air travel.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

21. No, actually the question is one of causality

You kind of made it that way in your hypothetical when you said the other poster would be the cause of such an event. Let's just mix all our metaphors and cliches and say it thusly: it takes two to tango, but you can't start a fire without a spark, or a shooting without a gun.

[krispos42]

24. It's why Florida doesn't have any snowmobile fatalities

And why Minnesota's shark-attack rate is zero.

I understand that.

But, you can't create the conditions for no shootings in Utah, or any state, because all states have and will continue to have guns.

Furthermore, a shooting can be good or bad. Self-defense or criminal offense both can involve gunplay.

Finally, we must remember that guns are not the motive for killing, they are the tool.

[madinmaryland]

9. No. The sight of incompetent idiots running around with their guns hanging out of their

pants scares me. Incompetent idiots like Wayne LaPierre.

[EastKYLiberal]

10. If the murder rate is that low, then they sure as hell don't need their tool of paranoia...

On them at all times.

[krispos42]

23. Hmmm....

...so if the crime rate is low, nobody needs to carry concealed because there is no threat. And if the crime rate is high, nobody can carry concealed because we have to staunch the flow of stolen guns to the criminals.

Nice.

[CreekDog]

11. the murder rate in my city is 1.6

and we aren't loosening gun laws here.

[OldDem2012]

14. Skip the lecture, please....

....the more people who run around armed, concealed or not, the greater the chances become that one of them is going to be a whack-job wanting to gain a reputation for the most people killed in a single day.

There's a reason why municipalities in the Wild West passed laws prohibiting guns inside the town limits...can you guess why that was?

There's also a reason why the military keeps their weapons locked-up in armories when they're not in combat situations....can you guess why that is?

And no, as a veteran, guns don't scare me, but whack-jobs who can easily get one at a gun show or under the table REALLY worry me. People who aren't concerned about that worry me even more.

[2theleft]

15. + 1,000,000

Not a veteran, but grew up around hunters who all had plenty of guns and am not scared of them in general. Agree with everything you said.

[krispos42]

22. The numbers do not bear our your assumption.

Concealed carry has steadily climbed the last twenty years or so. The homicide rate has fallen. The trend line for single and multiple-victim homicides is showing a decline.

Trying to limit the small segment of the population that routinely carries guns in order to prevent spree shootings is a fallacy. Spree shootings are done by people that get their guns from home, drive to a location, and start shooting. They are NOT done by people that routinely carry who, all of a sudden, decide to slaughter a busload of nuns because their expresso wasn't hot enough.

[OldDem2012]

30. What numbers? You haven't presented any. nt.

[krispos42]

41. now you know how I feel

After all, neither have you.

[Hoyt]

31. Carrying guns in most public areas is proof enough of little concern for others/society.

Honestly, do we really to pollute public places with armed citizens?

[krispos42]

42. Not as much as doing drugs

After all, people that use pot, cocaine, and crystal meth are contributing far more to American death and destruction than those legally carrying concealed.

[Hoyt]

45. Don't know what drugs have to do with it, but you guys certainly have creative excuses to keep

yourselves in guns.

Is that why you carry and promote more guns in more places?

[krispos42]

48. Really?

So all the dead bodies from drug gangs have nothing to do with drug users?

[Hoyt]

50. Do you need your guns because you often interact with drug gangs?

[krispos42]

53. Are you going to judge whether I need guns or not? n/t

[sikofit3]

55. Please

Lets not entertain this thinking.... ignore him. They can't see the rationality of it all and never will... if no one ever gave gun defenders a second of their time, their threads would drop to nothing and they would go away or be delegated to one way comments....

[Shankapotomus]

46. How do you propse

to win this argument when criminals get their guns either legally themselves or by stealing them from law-abiding citizens like Adam Lanza's mother?

No matter how you look at it, the LEGAL access to assault weapons (all firearms really) is eventually what puts guns in the hands of bad guys. The supply chain always leads back to a legal purchase. Even weapons criminals steal or buy illegally on the underground black market are available because somewhere they were first legally purchased by an individual or gun shop owner. You don't get a lot of criminals knocking over armories or gun factories.

[krispos42]

49. The bad guys are bad guys independent of armaments.

The motives for committing crimes are independent of weapons available. Only a third of armed robberies, for example, are committed with guns.

We can do things to limit access of guns to criminals, which will help somewhat, but let's face it; if I gave you a sack full of Glocks, you're not going to decided to start robbing 7-Elevens.

[Shankapotomus]

51. "...which will help somewhat..."

That's all that really counts in this debate, afaic. Robberies are not the issue. It's about preventing deaths from guns. If nobody can get high capacity guns, pardon my language, you're damn right it will help.

[krispos42]

54. Then can I count on your support for a nationwide 5mph speed limit?

Are you going to deny that limiting cars to 5mph will save tens of thousands of lives a year?

[Shankapotomus]

60. You are talking to an environmental and clean energy advocate

Sure. If you make it more realistic, you can count on my support for a gasoline engine vehicle ban for the mass of drivers (except for emergency and large shipment vehicles) and a little over horse and buggy top speed limit in the remaining electric and clean fuel vehicles. There's no reason, except for emergency personal vehicles and government officials, for the mass of private vehicles to be capable of the speeds they can reach. If you have to get to work that fast, work closer to home. If there aren't enough jobs closer to home, the government needs to promote self-sufficient living models and technology. No reason people have to die for a car ride. It's the wage slave dependent, borrow and charge economy that promotes our maddening life-style. The whole reason we are driving so much is because we can't afford to live on this earth because our individual futures have been hijacked to pay for houses, rents and cars. If the government was doing its job in all these areas, which is organizing a more efficient self-sufficient society, we wouldn't have these multi-layered and interrelated problems.

[Bandit]

52. You are constantly talking about gun crimes.....how about accidents?

I belioeve there are just as many if not more gun related injuries and deaths from accidents than from robberies gone bad or gang shoot-outs... The more guns there are in more public places the higher the odds tha accidents will occur...Pretty Basic...

[krispos42]

57. CDC says otherwise.

There are a couple of hundred truly accidental fatalities a year. That's it.


And again, we're taking about an increase in honest people carrying guns. People that are not career criminals. Concealed carry has been expanded steadily for the last 20-25 years, and the homicide and accident rates have dropped steadily.

[Scootaloo]

36. Global temperatures have risen, while acts of piracy have fallen

It's kismet, I tells ya!

[krispos42]

43. We need to import more lemons from Mexico

[GreenStormCloud]

62. What makes you think such a whack-job will obey your gun laws?

He is about to commit lots of murders - that's the ultimate in illegality. Yet you think such a person will be detered because it is illegal to carry a gun?

[Skip Intro]

17. +100. nt

[Kolesar]

37. "You're scared" says Mr. Macho ... eom

[Blue_In_AK]

12. Stay away from Alaska, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Alaska

[GreenStormCloud]

13. Too bad. You will miss one of the most beautiful states in the nation.

I have been fortunate enough to have travelled across across all 48 continous states, multiple times, in all seasons. (Former long haul 18-wheeler driver) Utah is one of the tops for natural beauty.

Law-abiding people who carry guns are not a threat to you, unless you are planning on doing something criminal and violent.

[kestrel91316]

19. Virtually every mass killing I can think of was done by some

supposedly law abiding person - until the very bad day when they weren't. I'll stay far away from a state where paranoid but law-abiding folks pack heat and expect trouble around every corner. Because they sure are going to find it sooner or later, and probably be the cause of it.

[GreenStormCloud]

25. Rampage shooters are extremely rare.

All but a very few murders are done by the ones and twos, and almost all of those are by people with prior violent criminal records.

law-abiding folks pack heat and expect trouble around every corner. Because they sure are going to find it sooner or later, and probably be the cause of it. That is easily proved to be false. There are about ten million people with CCWs in the nation. We have a little under 10,000 gun murders. It would take 1,000 years to reach ten million murders. Almost all murderers, with the exception of rampage killers, already have criminal records. Here are some statistics for you: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/reports/convrates.htm
Texas keeps records of all CHLers who commit murder or manslaughter. In 2011 there were 525,000+ CHLs and only 6 were convicted of murder/manslaughter. In the same year there were over 600 convictions for manslaughter/murder. Here is a chart that compares the CHL conviction rate to the general population for all violent crimes, even those that don't involve a gun. It is proof that we are far safer than the average person on the street.

[IMG][/IMG]

BTW - Virtually every rampage killing that I can think of was done in a "gun free" zone. Rampage killers like places where they can find unarmed victims who can't fight back.

[Hoyt]

32. Yeah but yahoos walking around with guns in public is becoming too common with help

of gun promoters.

Another few million George Zimmermans - or gun toters like one who settled argument in a Chuck E Cheese - on streets are not in our best interests.

[aquart]

38. Like Reeva Steenkamp?

Real impressed by that vapid boilerplate argument.

[GreenStormCloud]

59. That happened in a foreign country, under their laws, not relevant to the U.S.

He also beat her in the head with a cricket bat, so she would have been dead even if he had not had a gun.

South African gun laws are much stricter than ours and he still had both a machine gun and a pistol. http://world.time.com/2013/02/15/oscar-pistorius-shooting-how-strict-are-south-africas-gun-laws/

[nakocal]

16. This proves that Utah does not have many Christians

Real Christians are not so afraid that they must have a gun everywhere they go.

[GreenStormCloud]

26. Some of Jesus' disciples carried swords with them.

Peter did.

[aquart]

39. How many do you figure he could have killed with that sword?

In, say, ten minutes?

[sarisataka]

18. Would you consider

a vacation in Vermont?

[sad-cafe]

27. what is there to do in Utah anyway?

never really had a desire to go there except to include it in our 50 state tour

[mwrguy]

33. hoard food, wear magic panties

and now tote a gun like a paranoid lunatic.

I think that about covers Utah activities.

[lob1]

34. Some of the best scenery in the world. Zion Canyon, Bryce Canyon,

North rim of the Grand Canyon, Capitol Reef, Arches, Canyonlands, Monument Valley, all in Southern Utah. It's a photographers paradise. No big cities.

[Kolesar]

40. Skiing, mountain biking, ...

The topology of the Vermilion Cliffs and the Pink Cliffs is what I like to see. Bryce Canyon and Zion Canyon are amazing.

[OceanEcosystem]

28. I think the more rural a state is, the more concealed carry makes sense.

Especially states like Alaska or Montana, for instance - if you're out in the wilderness, 911 will take a very long time to get to you, whether you're being attacked by a bear or a criminal.

[Drunken Irishman]

35. Utah is not rural...

It's ranked as the 8th most urbanized state in the union. Roughly 90% of the state's population lives in an urban center - with almost all that being the Wasatch Front. We have rural areas, most certainly, but we're definitely not Montana or Alaska.

[Recursion]

29. Isn't that how Vermont is too?

Will you also cancel your vacations to there?

[hack89]

47. That attitude will keep you out of 38 states

States that Allow Open Carrying of Handguns on the Person or In a Vehicle – No Permit or License Required

On the Person:
Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
California (If unloaded)11
Colorado
Delaware
Georgia12
Idaho
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
Maine
Michigan
Mississippi
Missouri
Montana
Nebraska
Nevada
New Hampshire
New Mexico
North Carolina
North Dakota (If unloaded, and only during the day)13
Ohio
Oklahoma14
Oregon
Pennsylvania15
South Dakota
Utah (If unloaded).16
Vermont
Virginia (Open carrying of certain loaded handguns is prohibited in select cities)17
Washington
West Virginia
Wisconsin
Wyoming

http://smartgunlaws.org/open-carrying-policy-summary/

[JoePhilly]

56. I don't trust strangers to act responsibly, period.

When I drive, and I come to an intersection, if I see a car coming on the cross street, with their turn signal on such that I could go, I don't just immediately GO. I wait and make sure that the person is actually going to turn.

When I come to an intersection where I have the right of way, and the cross street has stop signs, I do not assume that the car approaching the stop sign will actually stop.

I've avoided numerous accidents by simply not trusting other drivers to act responsibly.

I don't trust strangers with guns. Unless they are a law enforcement professional, dressed as such, I don't trust them. I simply have no idea what level of training they have, if any. For all I know, the person has anger management issues, or is just a show off, or clumsy, or forgot to make sure there is no bullet in the chamber.

I won't spend any time around a person with a gun unless I know them very very well.

[hughee99]

58. Exactly, better to go somewhere safe like Chicago, DC or Detroit

where you won't have to worry about some rethug with a metal penis.

[Taverner]

61. I can just see "stand your ground" defense in fender benders...

Yet another reason not to go to the cesspool that is Utah