General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSo, Dorner's Only Means to Expose LAPD Corruption Was To Kill People?
That was the only way? No media outlet would have listened to a war veteran/former LAPD who had evidence of corruption? No ACLU attorneys/Legal Aid Society/Criminal Defese Attorneys would have listened to him? No well-established internet blog site like the Huffington Post would have published his evidence? No national or local newspaper would have been interested in his story? No radio talk programs? Nothing.
His only means of exposing corruption in the LAPD was to go out and kill innocent people some who had nothing whatsoever to do with the LAPD. Do I have that right?
randome
(34,845 posts)He made them the day AFTER his partner asked for him to be reassigned.
What about these two data points does NOT point to the likelihood that his allegations were in retaliation to the perceived unfairness of his partner?
Dorner has little of value to say about the corrupt LAPD.
DrewFlorida
(1,096 posts)Because Dorner did not use a good method for exposing the LAPD does not mean the LAPD should not be exposed for their corruption, abuse of power, neglect of oath to the general public. It has been common knowledge for decades that the LAPD is a corrupt organization, this is just another glimpse of that well known fact. Maybe something should be done about the LAPD instead of just ignoring their bastardly behavior.
Yavin4
(35,446 posts)He killed people.
And I agree with you completely on that, but killing people destroys whatever message you are trying to make.
DrewFlorida
(1,096 posts)robinlynne
(15,481 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)It's human nature to discount the ramblings of an insane person. Therefore, Dorner actually hurt his 'cause'.
gateley
(62,683 posts)and dismissed/discounted regardless of how often s/he is right thereafter. (Biden comes to mind.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)place of employment.
There is no excuse for his 2nd amendment solution to being unfairly terminated.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)sibelian
(7,804 posts)Yavin4
(35,446 posts)then it's a straw man. BTW, please look up the definition of a straw man argument:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
sibelian
(7,804 posts)... from the article you linked to.
Yes. A straw man. Like your OP.
By which you may take it that I mean your OP misrepresents your opponent's position.
Your OP rests on the assumption that anybody thinks Dorner's actions were a morally legitimate response to his treatment. Which, apart from a tiny handful of idiots, isn't true.
"to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition"
Like pretending that those suggesting that the treatment of Dorner at the hands of the LAPD was untoward also feel his reaction was appropriate. Which apart from a tiny handful of utter idiots, isn't being said.
So why did you link to an article that supports my position?
Yavin4
(35,446 posts)Links
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2368014
and
Something people largely weren't talking about before Dorner.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2369427
KingFlorez
(12,689 posts)Writing a manifesto, shooting people and then dying while being surrounded by cops means that his name will be remembered. Plus, he probably knew a lot of people would consider him some sort of martyr because of corruption. He accomplished what he wanted, I don't know if he intended to die, but I'm sure he wanted his name to be remembered rather he lived or died.
randome
(34,845 posts)"You're not going to go all Dorner on me, are you?"
Downwinder
(12,869 posts)Dorner was a product of LAPD culture.
Yavin4
(35,446 posts)That's enough time to make him a killer?
Downwinder
(12,869 posts)bayareamike
(602 posts)He was a member of the Navy for over a decade.
Downwinder
(12,869 posts)You want to watch how hard you ride someone who has served in a war zone.
bayareamike
(602 posts)with problems since he was a kid. The guy wrote multiple stories in his manifesto detailing his violent overreactions to being insulted throughout his life. He was a jackass. I'm glad he's gone.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)So glad for your diagnosis.
bayareamike
(602 posts)based on Dorner's own writings. Claiming he was the "product of LAPD culture" (or Navy culture, for that matter) is based on nothing more than one's own biases.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)LOL!
bayareamike
(602 posts)or do you just want to be a jackass who makes snide remarks?
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)bayareamike
(602 posts)HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)BainsBane
(53,072 posts)You're slipping.
Downwinder
(12,869 posts)Sort of scary that it didn't.
bayareamike
(602 posts)robinlynne
(15,481 posts)haele
(12,681 posts)He had that capability within him when he put on the blue.
All they did was put him in a corner when he didn't match their expectations of him when they hired him.
Just like thousands of other organizations and jobs do to people who "don't fit".
Haele
He was only in the LAPD for less than three years. He'd been in the military. He had gone through school. Who knows exactly what made him what he was. But even though the LAPD is no one's idea of a model police force, the fact is that there are thousands of current and former members of the LAPD, undoubtedly a substantial number with grievances, who have gone on killing rampages and any suggestion that the LAPD "culture" is in any way responsible for his actions is lame.
onenote
(42,768 posts)but that would be an interesting fact. Your post seems to suggest you have some idea. Please share.
Downwinder
(12,869 posts)and a surfer it appears to be more of a killer's culture than defend and protect. I can see where a culture like that would produce an individual that would pick up arms to strike back.
onenote
(42,768 posts)so I think your assumptions need some back up.
Downwinder
(12,869 posts)bhikkhu
(10,724 posts)and then a bunch more here: http://patterico.com/wp/wp-content/images/lapd-data-final.pdf
The average number of officer-involved "suspect fatalities" is 13 per year (if I'm reading the statistics right), or about .0013% per officer per year. I don't know how that compares to anywhere else.
Downwinder
(12,869 posts)robinlynne
(15,481 posts)robinlynne
(15,481 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Something people largely weren't talking about before Dorner.
The two shot up trucks of wrong make, model, color and passenger race/sex also are fairly obvious clues that the LAPD in general is about as sharp as a watermelon.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)in the slightest? That a bunch of people online talk about LAPD corruption? The LA community, the FBI, and the DOJ are the only ones who have any impact on the LAPD.
What people think on DU--or the "national conversation"--means nothing, other than people buy into the justifications of a murderer,
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)It only effected students and faculty at UC Davis when Pepperspray Cop went for his little stroll too but it sure entered the public awareness and became part of the national conversation.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)and it's not beginning. It's long standing. You haven't answered the question. The police aren't national. What do they care about "national awareness," particularly on websites?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I certainly don't expect that the LAPD is going to reform itself or be reformed from the outside, corruption and violence are a tradition there.
However seeing the roaches scurrying from the sunlight suddenly shone upon them is amusing in an unspellable German word sort of way.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)No. No one who doesn't already hate the police is interested in Dorner's so-called manifesto. He wrote that in an effort to justify his murder spree. Anyone with sense can see as much. Nothing he has any credence. If he wanted to accomplish something, he should have filed a law suit and told his story to the press. But all he wanted to do is kill, so that is exactly what he did.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)An idea so long established it was old when said in Latin.
It's the rare person that doesn't get a bit nervous when the blue lights start flashing behind them.
And then there's another old Latin quote, Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who will watch the watchers?
Old problems indeed.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Who have said the same things regarding the police culture of LAPD in the last 72 hours.
Where there is smoke...perhaps...there is fire.
But hey, if it makes you feel better the murdering scum is dead, nothing to see here.
One of the two former officers even wrote about vendettas from former officers and that he was surprised this took so long.
But hey, the straw pile is over there.
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)Unfortunately, he killed innocent people while making it all about himself.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)hate Obama for using drones to kill terrorists (even US 3 citizens) in Pakistan and Yemen and Afghanistan in order to protect our troops and us. See how that works? Neither do I.
CAG
(1,820 posts)the left may be a little soft on crime??
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)mokawanis
(4,452 posts)so why are you putting those words in their mouths?
What people have said is that the allegations against the LAPD bear looking into and that any corruption should be exposed. Making those points does not mean people support what Dorner did. Nobody supports his decision to use violence, though many on DU have been accused of doing so.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)Plus it creates a foundation for criticizing anyone who is not an authoritarian lover, and who wants an investigation of the allegations, to be called a Dorner sympathizer.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)It's very possible that the LAPD corruption is what broke him as a human being, but he was not trying to remedy any wrongs. He was killing because he had become a psycho.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Where did you get your degree geek?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)dkf
(37,305 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)That's why I laugh every time I read someone posting bullshit like (and I paraphrase) "LAPD needed Dorner dead! LAPD wanted Dorner dead! They were afraid of what he was going to expose!"
LAPD wasn't afraid of Dorner in any other context than he'd already killed the child of a former LAPD bigwig and her fiancé and promised to kill more children (Dorner's words) and officers until he got satisfaction.
REP
(21,691 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Yavin4
(35,446 posts)Coyotl
(15,262 posts)HELLO! What effect did the corruption and his job treatment have on his mental state?
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)did terrible things for which he was due some serious punishment AND i believe he had some legitimate observations about the deplorable racism and lack of ethics at LAPD.
Yep. Makes me a "fan".
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)I keep bringing up the point that one can condemn Dorner's murderous actions (which are obvious,) while also condemning the LAPD's long track record of violence, corruption and racism, which has been reported by lots of people, including two other LAPD officers that spoke up in the wake of Dorner's violence.
But if I criticize the LAPD, that means I endorse Dorner...
datasuspect
(26,591 posts)robinlynne
(15,481 posts)Historic NY
(37,453 posts)then I'm heading to Brooklyn to put a sold sign on the bridge.
It absolutely disgusting to have people defending him (a mass murderer) here. How many people think Allen West was completely sane? Killing people to make a point of your grievences isn't sane. Killing innocent, uninvolved people is .......what?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Yet he has cheerleaders here.
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)a large, ong ressearch rpoject interviewoing citizens of all walks of life after the war to find out why they particpated in the killing. Unfortunaely, the study concluded, as ahve many many studies since that one, that they were NORMAL.
Calling people crazy does not make it so. It is a way for you to feel better. He is not made of the same cloth that we are. no perosn i know would ever do such a thing. but the truth may be otheriwse, undortunately.
the book is called "They thought they were free." It is rather terrible to acknowledge, but under certain circumstances "sane" people will do terrible things. Remember the research project where they had people think they were applying electric shocks? Didn't at least half of the people actually do it?
Taverner
(55,476 posts)But that has nothing to do with the veracity of his claims
TheKentuckian
(25,029 posts)but his horrible means doesn't diminish the issues with cops not a single bit just as crazy bastards blasting on random law abiding citizens didn't diminish the need to capture or if necessary kill Dorner.