General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDorner's con game worked
Last edited Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:34 PM - Edit history (4)
Many here have bought into his excuses for going on a murdering spree and decided his life means more than those of all the people--civilian and police alike--that he killed.
You'll fallen for the PR of a psychopathic killer. Too bad James Holmes or Alex Lanza didn't write manifestos. They might have fan clubs here as well.
There is a difference between a reason for someone's actions and how one justifies them. Dorner invoked references to actual LAPD corruption because he knew it would incur sympathy with the public. He sought to justify his murder spree. Police corruption was not a reason or a cause for his actions; it was his excuse.
ananda
(28,877 posts).. and at the same time abhor and condemn murderous violence on the part of Dorner as well?
if only that were happening. I see very few people doing that.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)So were alot of others, btw
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)Obviously I did not mean all DUers, as I don't count myself among them. But prior to yesterday we saw a number of people justifying Dorner's murder spree because they liked what they read in his manifesto. Last night and today I've seen a great deal of outrage over his death but not about those he killed.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)the LAPD has managed to build for themselves, thats overcoming common sense.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)That's why he justified his actions as he did. He knew how much the LAPD is hated and saw that as a way to incur sympathy for his actions.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)In fact I think he will be copied, I think he's pioneered something new. Not sure what to call it.
d06204
(86 posts)Suicide By Cop
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)with grievances (some which may have been legitimate) and that LAPD has a longstanding history of corruption and brutality towards the community? I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time. Dorner, in my estimation, was deserving of the most severe punishment available under the law had he been captured and brought to trial. However, that does not mean that abuses by the LA law enforcement personnel should be excused or winked at because they wear blue. Not all who wear the uniform are "the good guys" anymore than all identified "bad guys" are guilty.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)both are correct. I wish more people stated their views as you do.
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)Yet you repeatedly say there are.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)You have repeatedly done so. You specifically have. You said he was perfectly fine until the LAPD pushed him over the edge, that they "caused the whole thing." If that isn't a defense, what is it?
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)tblue
(16,350 posts)I'd give you one. Anyway:
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)He had to have known what the outcome would be?
Was he crazy? Just really all that angry? Did he really feel he had been treated unjustly?
Was he a phony?
Seems like it was a pretty stupid way to air his grievances, but why did he choose it? For the same reason that he met with failure in other areas of his life?
I agree that he should not have killed anyone. But why did he? Or was he just irrational?
Do you have an opinion on this? Do you care? Or is it enough for you just to dismiss him as evil?
I'm curious about why you care about this enough to post.
I've seen people defend all kinds of crazy things on the internet. Why does this cause you to react the way you do?
I kind of stayed away from the topic because I felt that less attention paid to it was better, but some seemed to want to put this guy in the spotlight. Why do you suppose that is?
theKed
(1,235 posts)actually justifying his killings. I saw a lot of people talking about the LAPD (well, not just the LAPD) and their actions and reactions to the events that unfolded. I saw a few people trying to understand what caused such a thing to happen in the first place. And I saw a lot of vitriol towards those people. But not one person that I saw felt he was excused for his acts.
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)this to happen. (except for his mental health which we do not know about). You interpret that as jusitfying a killing spree.
it IS NOT. This is your perception, as opposed to reality. I think that is what people are trying to tell you.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)shows you bought into his con. LAPD corruption didn't cause his murder spree. It didn't even trigger it. He left the LAPD in 2009 but started killing only last week, shortly after being passed over for promotion in the navy and losing his commission. He wrote a manifesto talking about police corruption to incur sympathy from the public--who are rightfully angry with the LAPD. He didn't target the military because no one would have bought into that argument.
Dorner caused the murder spree. No one is responsible for his actions but himself.
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)confirming that what Dormer wrote tends to happen in the LAPD. even though they want no association whatsoever with DOrner.
He is a murderer. fact. What he wrote is likely true, and the story he told is likely true. One does not preclude the other.
You don't have to like him to admit what happened. it is not hero vs villain as some here would have it.
Once he killed the young couple, he was a murderer. there is no doubt about that.
But if things are happening that drive people over the edge, and they continue to happen, what do you think the result will be?
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)is going to go out an kill people, and their murders are understandable because they were driven "over the edge"? And the fact the spree coincided with his being passed up for promotion by the military is irrelevant?
People who go over the edge were never on stable ground to begin with. That is a function of his own psychological instability. Thousands of people have been in Dorner's position and not resorted to murder.
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)in different ways. people shoot coworkers, spouses, people commit suicide. people go into therapy. eople start new lives.
People can be, and are, pushed over the edge. What they do at that point depends on many many factors.
hunger, rape, injustice, so many things can take people over the edge. All accounts say he was always a happy and mellow person until this 5 year trial. I dont know anything about him.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)was he a happy mellow person. Mellow people don't do things like this. The notion is absurd.
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)not one with a scowl.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)He was a nice quite guy. BTK was a model citizen. A great neighbor. Honestly. Every psychopath is a nice quite guy until he gets his hands on weapons and starts killing people.
Why do you suppose he was twice passed over for promotion in the navy? Seems to me they figured out the guy wasn't right in the head.
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)No. the serial killers are generally loners. quiet. This guy was happy and boisterous according to the accounts on tv.
I dont know anything about him one way or another. only what the tv says. Just that the evidence out, so far, is that he was a happy person.
There are stories that he found $8,000 and returned it. and Stories of being good natured. no stories of any sort of violence. or of being irrational, moody, whatever. (and being irrational or moody does not mena you will kill people)
No, he doesnt sound like the "typical serial killer".
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)so obviously you and his friends didn't know him.
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)robinlynne
(15,481 posts)He is most definitely a murderer.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)really? Cold blooded is merely a determinate of the demeanor of the person at the time. It doesn't say anything about the severity of the murder. I would think snipers would be unusually calm. They are trained to be that way. Dorner, however, was not a trained sniper.
AAO
(3,300 posts)Even if everything Dorner said was true, it would NEVER justify killing a human being.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)56. I saw none. I saw Duers discussing his manifesto. discussing the LAPd. dsicussing what caused ALL of
this to happen. (except for his mental health which we do not know about). You interpret that as jusitfying a killing spree.
it IS NOT. This is your perception, as opposed to reality. I think that is what people are trying to tell you.
Then there is this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022364844#post3
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)else. That is your fantasy. I think this guy probably went through 5 years of living hell. like someone being raped repeatedly. like living in a war.
like a kafka novel. imagine if ti si true that in his trial, 2 of the people judging were friends of the persons he was accusing. (I don't know if it is true or not.)
That does not excuse anything. nor does saying "he is mentally ill., when you just don't know.
A hungry person might kill someone who is throwing away food, when they get desperate enough. That does not EXCUSE murder. but it does tell you that if you people are starving, violence may ensue.
edited to spell check.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)He was a nice, mellow guy until 5 years of LAPD trial. All it tells me is that you've bought into his con, the very point I raised in the OP. He put out a manifesto to persuade the public to have sympathy for him, and he convinced you. You specifically said the LAPD "caused all of this."
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)The situation that happened over 5 years probably caused his actions. And it looks like a terrible injustice happened at that trial.
THAT DOES NOT EXCUSE MURDER to anyone.
psych 101.
There is a huge difference between looking to see why it is common for abused boys to become abusers, which is important to learn, and saying "he had the right to murder because he was abused".
two different worlds of thought. You are interpreting/projecting, very incorrectly.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)the explanation is far more likely to reside in his childhood than five years ago?
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)don't know about his childhood.
I do know that the 20 or so minutes I have spent in Court over the past year watching a judge rule in seconds without finding out the truth first (because the Judge is doing 100 hearings per day and she only has 2-3 minutes to decide my Mother's future) have caused months and months of pain.
I will never hurt anyone. And my court case is quite different. but watching injustice in Court is really hard to do. Things you witness can change you.
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)not there is bothering you.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)I hate murder. I hate guns, I hate the death penalty, and I oppose murder of all kinds.
That's really it. I don't like seeing anyone sympathize with someone who goes around murdering people. I don't particularly like police, but I don't hate them either. I don't assume they are liars or corrupt without evidence. I happen to live in a city (Minneapolis) with a really shitty police force, whereas the one in the neighboring city (St. Paul) is entirely different, not without corruption and screw ups, but not as bad as Minneapolis' force. Certainly there is plenty of evidence of corruption in the LAPD, but I don't see that as a "cause," proximate or otherwise, of Dorner's murder spree. As you note, it was five years ago. He began killing last week, shortly after being denied promotion by the navy and losing his commission. I think he deliberately played the public with his manifesto. Did he have legitimate grievances with the LAPD, probably. That's a reason for a law suit, not a murder spree.
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)but I would like the situation that happened, if true, to be addressed. just as I would like Cheney investigated and prosecuted. I don't like injustice.
I also do not like violence, guns, or murder!
AAO
(3,300 posts)I don't think that would hold up in a court of law.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)and I provided multiple links in this thread. Since the post is about DU responses to Dorner, why should it be based on something other than DU posts?
I wasn't aware the criteria for posting on this site required holding up in a court of law. That's a new one.
AAO
(3,300 posts)Travel in peace, my friend.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)You said:
[font size=3 color=firebrick]"But prior to yesterday we saw a number of people justifying Dorner's murder spree" [/font]
I was here yesterday,
and I don't recall a single post "justifying Dorner's murder spree".
Perhaps you can post some links to support your claim?
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Where are the links?
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)you'd gossip rather than asking me directly. There are links throughout this thread. Try reading.
I'm waiting for those links also.
I think the more likely scenario, is not a single poster was justifying anything.
There are just a few that are saying that a percieved ideological opponent was.
Games.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)One person compared Dorner to Che Guevara. I took particular exception to that.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=220398
This entire meta thread dealt with the issue: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=220366
Then there is the guy who claimed Obama staged the whole Doner thing (I guess like he supposedly staged Sandyhook) to justify spying on Americans.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2347592\
polly7
(20,582 posts)Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)I am unhappy with the way this played out for a number of reasons, none of which has anything to do with sympathy for Dorner.
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)firenewt
(298 posts)robinlynne
(15,481 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)there's maybe 4-5 people that are completely siding with dorner, AT BEST.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)to this OP. Obviously others have seen it as well.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)Taverner
(55,476 posts)EastKYLiberal
(429 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)I'm with you - I'm fresh out of sympathy for Dorner - murdering innocent people has that effect on me.
But the LAPD has also behaved badly. They basically executed Dorner without a trial, probably as much for his exposure of their continued corruption, racism and oppression, as for his murders of LAPD officers.
DrewFlorida
(1,096 posts)which of course does not excuse the murderous actions of Dorner.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)It is entirely unrelated to his murders. He invoked outrage over the LAPD to incur sympathy from the public. His murder spree was preceded by his second denial for promotion by the navy, which meant he was out of the service. But he didn't rail on against corruption in the military because no one would have believed it. He chose the LAPD as a convenient excuse for his murderous rage. That is it.
Think about it. He left the LAPD in 2009. He only just started his spree last week. The trigger event was being passed over for promotion and losing his naval commission.
DrewFlorida
(1,096 posts)inside the LAPD.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)Instead my point is that it is unrelated.
DrewFlorida
(1,096 posts)But now that I do understand your point, I disagree. It seems to me, his release from the LAPD over his breaking from the "Good Ole Boy Network" has been the driving force of his rage and violence regardless of the timing. If he were simply a murderer out to kill randomly he would have killed the people whom he stole the car from rather than leaving them unharmed and tied up. The evidence points to him having targeted rage not random violence, and therefore the two issues are teid together.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)He collected resentment and outrage. But that does not mean the legitimate issue of police corruption explains his actions.
DrewFlorida
(1,096 posts)but it does not mean that Dorner did not do it because of that reason. Who knows what mix of thoughts go on in someone's mind? He obviously was harboring rage which he would not let go of, why he did what he did, when he did, can only be speculated.
Peace out!
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)BainsBane
(53,072 posts)He lost his case before the LAPD. It drove him over the edge, you claim. He was a nice mellow guy before then. Just like BTK and every other serial killer.
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)little.
I don't claim anything. That is what I deduce from all of the evidence we have heard so far. We know that the people who knew him have been coming forward saying he was happy, mellow, good natured honest. We know he was in court for 5 years, where he lost repeatedly. and appealed and lost again. We know what he said in his letter. We know what he did. I am not a judge.
For a moment there was a scandal on tv about a restraining order. turned out it was not against him. So far there is no indication of mental illness 5 years ago. There is indication he turned in a superior office for beating a person in handcuffs.
I have not heard anyone go on the record and say he was violent or anything similar 5 years ago.
so far.
We just don't know what really happened.
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)robinlynne
(15,481 posts)myrna minx
(22,772 posts)marlakay
(11,498 posts)he was wrong and terrible for what he did, but LAPD was wrong in how they handled it. Shooting cars that looked like his with women in them? Goodness
if I lived in LA I would be afraid to drive.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)dlwickham
(3,316 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)wtf???
i hear ya. this has been interesting (and not in a good way) seeing how this developed.
Journeyman
(15,041 posts)Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)It's that many can't allow for a single fact without reflexively bringing in unrelated facts.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)Unless those are now defenses for murder. Are they?
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)we'll never know all the details.
But your fawning adoration for cops out of control is duly noted.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)BY NOT KILLING MORE PEOPLE AND BY SURRENDERING.
DrewFlorida
(1,096 posts)that Dorner would not be taken alive, the LAPD had no intention of letting Dorner's voice be heard. It's a shame Dorner didn't have the presence of a stable mind, to write a book or find some other way to get the story out about the corruption in the LAPD. Given all that, Dorner's legacy will be that of a murderer.
The Second Stone
(2,900 posts)psychos from acting out on their urges. As a country, we fail completely in that department, and then insist that these sick people be able to get guns.
That the LAPD is incompetent and corrupt is without doubt. But Dorner is also a murderer.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)to the unfairness of their employer.
Do you think that mental health care could change some of the horrible employers in our country?
I don't know whether you saw the video featuring Wonder Bread/Hostess Corp. employees. They described how their employer had taken money out of their checks to put in a pension fund and then basically used the pension funds for purposes other than the employer had promised. Of course, then in bankruptcy court, the employer basically stole the pension funds.
Do you think that mental health care for the bosses at Wonder Bread/Hostess would help our country?
I am amazed at how nonviolent people remain when they have to deal with the fact that their employer stole from them, from their pension funds, broke promises.
Who needs the mental health care here?
I don't know what really happened in Dorner's situation. I'm not talking about that. I had the impression that the LAPD had straightened itself out a great deal and is doing far better than many of the police forces in the nation.
But more generally, why is it always the little, frustrated guy, the powerless person whom we view as mentally ill?
Do we just label the weak and helpless as mentally ill?
What about a powerful guy like Donald Trump? Does he need mental health care so that he can feel more compassion? How about the Koch Brothers? Do we view them as mentally healthy, sane just because they have money?
Do we equate wealth with mental health and poverty with mental illness? Is mental illness sometimes just a code word for: annoying, bothersome, difficult, sassy, . . . . ?
A Little Weird
(1,754 posts)Response to BainsBane (Original post)
devilgrrl This message was self-deleted by its author.
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)There are many here going
beevul
(12,194 posts)hootinholler
(26,449 posts)I just wish he wouldn't sell it as chocolate.
MuseRider
(34,125 posts)Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)Reality is hard to face, dear.
Response to Zoeisright (Reply #73)
devilgrrl This message was self-deleted by its author.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Sorry I can't stop laughing about that. 18 really?
Response to HangOnKids (Reply #97)
devilgrrl This message was self-deleted by its author.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)But she is RIGHT!
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Seriously but I was just wetting my pantalons. Could not get through them.
Response to Zoeisright (Reply #73)
Post removed
Response to Zoeisright (Reply #73)
HangOnKids This message was self-deleted by its author.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)It wouldn't have been so effective on black and white thinkers if the LAPD weren't notoriously corrupt. Some people love to pick sides and cannot see the whole picture. I do think that almost all posters here see the LAPD and Dorner as filth.
I did have the same thought as you about the manifesto and Lanza.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2350442
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)the world is NOT black and white and pretending people who can see shades of grey somehow support Dorner's actions is disingenuous. I want to know if there is any truth to his manifesto... that does not mean I see him as some sort of murder-spree folk hero and those that do tacitly state that support on DU are most likely trolls. I am capable of multiple levels of thought at the same time. I do not have to think it's okay that the police may have intentionally tried burning him out of that house, therefore causing his death. There were less violent ways to handle the situation. That doesn't mean that I support Dorner or cheered his actions. It means I don't trust the police on this specific matter. They have shown themselves not to be trustworthy... just ask the women who were delivering newspapers if the police should have been trusted in this.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)they insist that he should have had a trial and ignore the fact that he spent all day shooting at police and refuse to surrender.
If the police did intentionally burn him out, that is reprehensible and they should be punished. Here I'm assuming that violates police procedure. But I also think it right to allow police officers the same recourse to due process that people insisted Dorner receive.
I'll also point out that it was the San Bernardino Sheriff's office that was in charge of yesterday's siege, not the LAPD. So charges or corruption against LAPD--which I would personally be stunned if were false--don't relate directly to Doner's final demise.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)LAPD was there. They were involved. I've read stories and seen shows (like those SWAT shows on TV) where they have someone who has shot and killed people and then holed up somewhere and they don't try and "burn them out." They bring in negotiator's and try for a peaceful resolution.
I'm not saying that the police didn't have the right to use deadly force but in this situation, there was just too much going on that could be considered questionable on the part of the police (no matter their jurisdiction). You can be damn certain that the ATF has tried to never have another Waco situation, so why would a local police department put themselves in that position?
Again, I'm not claiming Dorner wasn't a bad guy, he was. He went about things wrong but there were obvious issues with this guy that no one seemed to want to address prior to all this happening. I'm not blaming others for his actions but...but if he had a mental break (which we'll never know now), he isn't really responsible for his actions either. I mean, there's an insanity defense for a reason.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)and since he's not around to make his case, I see no reason not to assume he's not responsible for his actions. I have much more sympathy for the people he killed, just as I do for the children of Sandyhook.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)Maybe it's because I'm considered mentally ill by some because I suffer from clinical depression, but I have a different outlook on the mentally ill. It's not to say I'm not empathetic or don't feel worse for the victims of crimes but some mentally ill people really aren't well or thinking straight. We'll never know if that's the case with Dorner or if he was just a narcissistic bastard. I would hope that the tests from the LAPD and the US Navy would have caught some sort of mental illness, if not, we can expect more of this behavior in the future from others that slipped through the cracks.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)and I would never in a million years do something like that. I don't have it in me. I resent the connection between mental illness and mass murder. Additionally, Mental illness is not insanity. One is a clinical diagnosis and the latter a legal determination.
Dorner would not have been adjudicated insane by a court.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I don't think a negotiator would have worked here. He was seriously disturbed, and had absolutely no intention of living through this. I think it would have just ended with a dead negotiator.
That said, the shooting up of the truck was appalling and just due to that incident alone, the LAPD CERTAINLY needs to be investigated. Shooting innocent people in a different make, model and color of truck isn't just reckless, it's criminal.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)ever does.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)Not your sensationalized version of them: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2367647
NadinBrezinski's responses in this thread are another example. She is unable to separate the issue of police corruption from Dorner's murder spree.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)posted anything justifying or excusing the killings, or glorifying the killer.
fail
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)Pointing to LAPD corruption for a reason for the murders is buying into his con. The LAPD was not only not the reason. It wasn't the trigger. He left the force in 2009 but began killing last week after being denied promotion in the navy. Pointing to police corruption was his justification. Repeating that shows people here bought into his con.
Some have even said the LAPD "caused" his murder spree: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2367954
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2364902
No one but Dorner himself is responsible for the murders he committed.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)accusation.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)They absolutely do support my points.
LisaL
(44,974 posts)He send a notebook with his writings to his shrink in some package. It just was never made public.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)in an effort to justify his actions.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)We've had lots of these disgruntled 2nd amendment solution seekers.
Disgruntled workers who "go postal" often have some legitimate beef with their former employers. They choose a second amendment solution rather than look for another job.
The vast majority of us, when fired do not go on murderous rampages, even if a trumped up case was created to fire us, let us go, lay us off, or whatever euphemism is used.
There was something wrong mentally with the man, as there has been with other 2nd amendment solution seekers.
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)TYY
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Just OUTRAGE and Meh....
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)that just happens to be what you respond to, like most people.
No one cared about this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022364788
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10591482
http://www.democraticunderground.com/125515731
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)It is hilarious!
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)not made up by Doner.
I know folks in LA... well before Doner went off, a traffic stop by an LAPD officer is NOT a prospect anybody should look forwards to.
If you cannot separate this matter, the extreme corruption in LAPD, and the need for DOJ to take a serious look from the psychosis. There is something rotten in LAPD, and this goes to well before Christopher Doner wrote his manifesto.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)and Dorner counted on that history of the LAPD and ill will toward them to justify his murder spree. All it was was justification. A legitimate response to corruption and injustice is a law suit, not killing people, and certainly not the children of the police officer who defended him before the police review board.
What I see here is what I stated in the OP. You've fallen for his con job. Of course the LAPD is corrupt. But that has nothing to do with Dorner being a murderer. His killing spree shortly followed the second time he was passed over for promotion as a naval officer. That meant he was out of the navy. But he didn't point to racism in the military because no one would believe it. He knew the LAPD would provide a useful excuse for his actions that some would fall for.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)well before Doner became part of it is falling for the Con.
What other black and white world do you live in? This is really a fallacy, called a straw man.
I will have to conclude that you have no clue what you are talking about in this very particular case.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)not a justification and not a reason for it. It's unfortunate you see them as related.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)LAPD scandals, sorry you cannot see the tree in the forest.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)In a thread about his murders. You see them as a reason for his murder spree. I wonder if you'd feel the same if he had killed your family. Murder is never justified. Nor was it even a reason for his spree. He played on public animosity toward the LAPD so that people like you would excuse his murders.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)One of them earned LAPD a DOJ investigation
The Rampart Scandal is notable in popular culture because at least three LAPD officers implicated in the scandal were found to be on the payroll of hip-hop mogul Marion "Suge" Knight of Death Row Records, a convicted felon with known ties to the Bloods street gang. Moreover, LAPD investigators alleged Rampart CRASH officers Nino Durden, Rafael Pérez and David Mack were involved in the 1997 drive-by murder of recording artist Notorious B.I.G..[2]
The Rampart investigation, based mainly on statements of the admitted corrupt officer (Pérez), initially implicated over 70 officers of wrongdoing. Of those officers, enough evidence was found to bring 58 before an internal administrative board. However, of the officers named by Pérez, only 24 were actually found to have committed any wrongdoing, with 12 given suspensions of various lengths, 7 forced to resign or retire, and 5 fired.[3] As a result of the probe into falsified evidence and police perjury, 106 prior criminal convictions were overturned.[4] The Rampart Scandal resulted in more than 140 civil lawsuits against the city of Los Angeles, costing the city an estimated $125 million in settlements.[5]
Partly as a result of the scandal, Police Chief Bernard Parks was not rehired by Mayor James K. Hahn in 2001. Both the scandal and the de facto firing of Parks are believed to have precipitated Mayor Hahn's defeat by Antonio Villaraigosa in the 2005 election.[6]
As of 2013 the full extent of Rampart corruption is not known, with several rape, murder and robbery investigations involving Rampart officers remaining unsolved.[7][8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampart_scandal
I guess Wikipedia and the Department of Justice were with Dorner when one had the entry written and the other did the investigation on the The CRASH unit.
I guess the scandal is a figment of our collective imaginations.
Reaad the bolded section with special interest. The Wiki Authors most have thought of Christopher Dorner, a yet to explode issue, when they wrote that section in particular.
Thetre is a lot of straw in that mind of yours, and a lot of black and white thinking.
LAPD needs to go under the DOJ magnifying glass AGAIN, and this is independent of the actions or lack of actions of Christopher Dorner.
Now go ahead and tell me why we were all were caught in the con again.
Let me repeat this. NOBODY IN THEIR RIGHT MIND wants to have ANY contact with the LAPD, there is a well earned hate and even fear of the Department. That includes people like me who not only live on the right side of the tracts, but 300 miles outside their jurisdiction. This started well before Christopher Doner was even in the radar, by a couple decades.
Now there is a pile of fresh straw for you o'er there!!!
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)the point is it has no relation to a spree killer. Get it?
I'm not saying the corruption isn't real. I'm saying your buying into Dorner's argument that his murder spree is about that is falling for a con. He left the LAPD in 2009. Now he goes on a killing spree? His being passed over for promotion in the navy was the trigger.
I don't understand why you find this so difficult to understand. Just because a murder invokes an excuse relating to actual events doesn't mean that his actions related to the justifications he gave the public.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)(the distance from Earth to the Sun) is that he brought this to the fore once again, and this is well mind you, independent of Doner, and that NOBODY JUSTIFIED HIS ACTIONS, except in your mind.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)Why did you even raise that issue in this thread? That is exactly what his manifesto argued.
People have argued the real issue is police corruption, not murder. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2364902
And people certainly have justified his actions. They have compared him favorably to Che Guevara! http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=220398
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I guess both DOJ and Wiki were in the con as well, before Christopher Doner was old enough to join the PD in the case of the DOJ.
Try it, ain't hard.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)For a journalist, you certainly are loose with the facts.
"8 light seconds...(the distance from Earth to the Sun)"
The average distance from the Earth to the Sun is 499.0 light-seconds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-second
So, just like your assertion that there are 60 cm in a meter, and the assertion that the US has 51 states, you are sadly mistaken.
Carry on!
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Unlike you, I live in LA and have plenty of contact with the LAPD.
In fact, I know my SLO for my neighborhood as well as a couple of officers.
Of course, I haven't shot any lately or broken any other laws, so maybe that's why I don't shake when I hear "LAPD".
Be nice if, for once, you knew what you were talking about.
truth2power
(8,219 posts)As I posted, yesterday, in another thread:
Glenn Greenwald. Cause and Effect in the Terror War 12/29/09
Thinking he may have had a legitimate grievance in his manifesto is not the same as justifying his killing spree. I still think the LAPD should be investigated.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)that the LAPD "caused" his killing spree. I'm not confusing the two, but members here are.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2367954
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2364902
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I would be careful with those.
I will add, the two f them spoke of well known issues with the LAPD. None justified Dorner shooting people up.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Some people are simply not capable of seeing the forest for the trees. This is actually exhibit A.
DrewFlorida
(1,096 posts)When I first heard about the LAPD blasting away at two women in a truck that looked like Dorner's, I said to a co-worker that there was no way that Dorner would be taken alive, no way he would be alive to have more of his story become public.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)and I have not found anyone claiming Dorner was justified or a hero, nor has anyone claimed the ends justified his means.
What I have seen, is statements to the effect that his claims might be true, but his message lost by his actions. I have seen statements critical of LAPDs trigger-happy cops, who ambushed several innocent citizens without warning. I have seen statements critical of the cops for their eagerness to kill Dorner rather than capture him alive to stand trial...and while the cops action to eliminate him are somewhat understandable under the circumstances, those are still valid criticisms.
IOW, you are creating a straw-man argument, arguing against statements which DUers haven't been making.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)The mere fact that people point to corruption in the LAPD as a reason for Dorner's actions show they bought into his con game. They haven't said the cops actions were understandable. They've called them murder and vigilante justice. They insisted he should have been brought to trial, completely ignoring the fact he refused to surrender and therefore could not face trial. They ignored the fact that taking further action to try to take him alive would have resulted in many more deaths.
Some have even compared him to Che Guevara! http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=220398
And of course the fact that the LAPD weren't in charge of yesterday's operation seems to have gone past most here. That was run by the San Bernardino Sheriff's office.
One thread that provides examples of this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2364793
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Its common knowledge...but no-one on DU has used that to justify Dorner's actions.
And it is not unreasonable to criticise SBSO for killing Dorner (if he didn't take his own life). We are, after all, a nation of laws...the accused has a right to a trial. It is understandable SBSO killed Dorner...he had already committed several murders, wounded others, held a couple hostage, and ended up in a gunfight with LEOS. I can certainly understand the decision to put an absolute stop to his murder spree by killing him then and there. However, it is not unreasonable to question that action. Its part of a post-event reflection when we ask "Could we have handled this better?", ... and " How should we handle a similar situation next time?".
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)but disagree that his spree was motivated by police corruption. Rather, pointing to police corruption was a justification for his desire to murder. The fact that the LAPD has been corrupt for ages doesn't mean that had anything to do with Dorner's murders. He left the LAPD in 2009 and began his killing spree last week after being turned down for promotion and losing his naval commission. He pointed to the LAPD because he knew it would curry favor with the public. Look who he killed. He killed the family of the man who defended him before the police review board. He wasn't targeting corrupt cops. He was a murderer who blamed the world for everything that happened to him.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)But that doesn't mean corruption, etc ,doesn't exist. Pointing that out isn't expressing support for Dorner or his actions.
I think the guy had paranoia. And I agree his claims of corruption were to justify his actions (in his mind) and to curry public sympathy. But that doesn't mean his claims are necessarily false, just that his motivation for making them was.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)and have no issue with that position. But when people claim this whole event is not about murder but instead police corruption and that the LAPD caused his murder spree, that is presenting the issue quite differently.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)If I ever snap and decide to go on a killing spree, I must remember to leave a long, rambling manifesto pointing out how awful the LAPD is.
Or maybe I can say Obama's drone policy is what set me off...
And because I need sadly need to do this...
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)and must be wiped. The two are not conflated. I appreciate the attention and pressure which have resulted upon LAPD as it is far past due (and who knows if real, actual change will result) because it is most desperately required but do not condone his ALLEGED acts.
What they did to him is part and parcel of the utterly reckless abuse they dole out on a regular basis. This is why LAPD must be changed:
Cal Fire News @CalFireNews
Are we all clear on this?:The man #Dorner was assumed guilty, tried by law enforcement, cornered & purposely burned alive?
Welcome to LA. Take my LAPD. Please!
tblue
(16,350 posts)I'd give you one.
The whole thing is sad.
Dorner turned into a cold-blooded killer. He'll never get a trial, a judgment or a sentence.
LAPD breeds evil and brutality. Will what they do ever get a trial, a judgment or a sentence?
Neither is beyond fault, and both should be dissected and examined. Dorner told us why he went so bad. What's LAPD's excuse?
sibelian
(7,804 posts)Who, WHO has "bought into his excuses"?
What is WRONG with this site? Certain people here seem to be congenitally incapable of responding to what is SAID.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)and who continually raise the subject as though they are somehow related.
tblue
(16,350 posts)Really? Sorry. No can do.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)Who are cheering on Dorner, the mass murderer.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)Could you link to them for me, please?
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Link to proof or apologize.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)There aren't any.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)An ardent supporter here has 18. Not a typo 18.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)Unimpressive.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Really hard!
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)Yeah, you won't like me. I don't like guns, the death penalty, or muderers. I'm consistent that way.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)I have no particular stake in your opinions of me.
As for my opinions of you, I do not intend to share them with you.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)what have I said here that violates TOS? If you have something to say to me, have the decency to say it directly rather than gossiping.
If you are a big supporter of gun rights, naturally you are going to like what I have to say. Too bad.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)You are over the top.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)You posted responses to others about me. Every single one of my hides has been to gunners and/ or about gun proliferation. As though the number of hides has any relevance to my point in the OP. Yes, you have chosen to gossip about me rather than address me directly.
You say you're waiting for links, when I've provided dozens in this thread, and you never bothered to ask me for any. As though it's my fault you can't be bothered to read through the responses or confront me directly. I certainly have my share of faults, and my transparency page provides evidence of them. But I have enough integrity to tell people what I think directly. I don't hide what I think or take indirect swipes at other members.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)There were and are others in the thread I wanted to converse with, you not so much.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)You chose to take passive aggressive swipes. I didn't force you to do that. Nor did I force you to read the thread.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)I am bored with you, plonk, welcome to ignore.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)You just confirmed my assessment of you. Dealing with someone who disagrees with you is obviously too much for you to handle. You might have to formulate an actual argument.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)nothing of substance to add to the conversation.
Response to Zoeisright (Reply #74)
devilgrrl This message was self-deleted by its author.
frylock
(34,825 posts)fucking do it.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)treat the people who pay their salaries and then try calling us "blind haters" to our faces. I've put up with their crap for 30 years and am, quite frankly, sick to death of it. And I'm a white middle class female medical professional. I can't even imagine how minorities feel.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Right.
So his own statements regarding his motives are too emotionally disturbing to be taken at face value?
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)Why did it correspond with his being denied promotion by the military? Why are you so intent on believing the writings of a deranged killer? Why should you put more credence in what he wrote than James Holmes?
sibelian
(7,804 posts)"Why are you so intent on believing the writings of a deranged killer?"
What IS this? To whom are you speaking?
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)is your contention that Dorner is not a deranged killer?
sibelian
(7,804 posts)BainsBane
(53,072 posts)the fact that he started killing shortly after being denied promotion tells that likely was the triggering event.
so you think "trigger" and "motive" are the same?
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)You evidently do. Hence my OP.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)Fascinating hypothesis, what evidence do you have to support it?
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)as a reason for Dorner's actions.
because he believed it, I do, hm?
Do go on.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)You choose to believe a psychopathic killer, and place credence in his reasons for his murder spree, completely ignoring the actually circumstances and timing. The fact that he started killing shortly after being denied promotion for the second time by the military and losing his naval commission. The fact that he had been deployed in war zones (that does mess with a person's head). The fact that his first victim was the daughter of his union rep who represented him before the police review board, the fact that he killed the family of the person who stood with him throughout his legal ordeal.
So yeah, you just confirmed you cannot tell the difference between justification and reason for actions.
And might I remind you, the man you are defending because you so hate police was also a cop.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)Once again, to whom are you speaking?
sibelian
(7,804 posts)You may note that I lament the apparent inability of people on this site to respond to what is SAID.
"You choose to believe a psychopathic killer"
Yes, I do, because there is no reason to suppose that because someone is "psychopathic" (or whatever emotionally laden and largely meaningless epithet you've chosen from your tense little armory of adjectives) that they are also a liar. Several times, incidentally, you assert that he is "psychopathic", despite apologising for using similar terms elsewhere. What do you mean by the term?
"and place credence in his reasons for his murder spree, completely ignoring the actually circumstances and timing."
No, I don't ignore the circumstances or the timing, nor have you any basis for assuming as much, nor do I regard them as being of any particular significance over his own statements to allow myself the luxury of ignoring the consequences of his statements for the LAPD.
"So yeah, you just confirmed you cannot tell the difference between justification and reason for actions"
It's very interesting that you say that, as my position is that it is perfectly possible to accept his explanation for his actions without their actually being morally justifiable. What do you mean when you say "you just confirmed you cannot tell the difference between justification and reason for actions"? How have I confirmed it? It should be perfectly clear to you from my question to you "So, because he believed it I do?" that I specifically do NOT believe that his actions were morally justifiable by his own statements of justification, despite my believing that HE believed his actions were thus justifiable.
It's very much as if you see my posts not as a response to your points but as a kind of emotional springboard from which to leap off into whatever flights of fancy you find appealing.
You certainly seem to think that you're contradicting me, but you're not, you're just talking past me.
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)middle of all this to say that his accusations ring true?
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)how he felt about his conflicts with LAPD over racism and ethics.
Do those problems justify his killing spree? NO. Absolutely NOT.
Do they partially explain it? Absolutely yes. He said as much.
You really need help with that inability to preceive shades of gray.
TheKentuckian
(25,029 posts)What we have here is a campaign to either disassociate or plausibly ignore any issue the spree murderer mentioned.
These folks know good and well no one is supporting this guy, this is agenda and the agenda in part is not to question the government and to subdue any issue with state sanctioned violence.
Here is how it plays, they wail on the strawman that Dorner has a fan club (just like they do when they bust out the "sympathy for terrorist card) I guess under the twisted logic that acknowledging the issues in relation to the murderer is somewhere between sympathy and outright support. Next some will just drop Dorner from the discussion and focus on the issues but this will be declared "thinly veiled" support or some such thing. Then there will be gnashing of teeth between like 12 people in Meta, and they will start alerting and playing baby games on juries. Nothing will happen from this of significance but it will allow a wee bit of Lord of the Flies games and harden lines though the actual disagreement between the lines is nonexistent, no one supports the murderer at all.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)I think you are perfectly correct. Many thanks.
Myrina
(12,296 posts)Your agenda has been crystal clear from the outset of this whole sad drama.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,176 posts)I don't understand how one cannot be repulsed by the actions of Dorner yet find truth in his opinions of the LAPD. And that his killing spree, while triggered from his rejected application to the Navy, was also a pent up anger at the LAPD. Is it that difficult to hold more than one thought in one's head at the same time?
The OP still has not given any links to DUers posts praising Dormer. It is the same blind and false accusations of Fox News and Rush.
The world is not black and white, "with us or against us" extremes.
If I didn't know any better I'd think this OP was created specifically to incite a flame war with such a blatant Straw Man assumption of a mass murderer fan club existing on DU.
egduj
(806 posts)Ah, to be young again. I envy you.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)That's my point. It is possible for several things to hold: LAPD is ripe with corruption; Dorner was on an unjustifiable murder spree; police may have behaved illegally in torching the cabin. All of these things can be true. And one need not believe Dorner's justifications for his murder spree to condemn LAPD corruption.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)This is what people have been writing...so I welcome you with open arms.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)your "logic." You seem to find it impossible to hold more than one concept in your mind at a time. I have explained to you several times that I don't dispute the fact the LAPD is corrupt. So either you can't read or you choose not to understand. Either way, it advances the conversation no where.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I will wait, and never get, the link to a post that both defends Dorner, as you claim, and has fallen for the con.
Have a good day.
(And now having a third officer coming from the wood work confirming the claims...oh wait...they fell for the con too)
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)in the face and chest.
not based on personal emotions.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)has it occurred to you that it's:
A) conceivable to believe this guy was a crazy ass murdering mutherfucker.
AND
B) believe that the LAPD is corrupt and abusive, NOT based solely on dorner's word, but real life stories and experiences.
AND
C) show disgust and horror at the savage lust for blood displayed by the cops on the scene calling to "burn that mutherfucker out," as well as calling out other posters for their perceived lust for blood.
WHILE
D) not being accused of sympathizing or abetting the crazy ass murdering mutherfucker?
or is critical thinking and multitasking not your strong suit?
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)but there are a number of posters who don't seem to think that's possible. They insist the LAPD caused Dorner's murder spree. They seem unable to distinguish between cause and justification.
Some have even compared him favorably to Che Guevara. And yes, if you want I can provide links.
frylock
(34,825 posts)I think you'll find that it's a handful of posters, and not the score of posters you want to believe are siding with him.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)is simply not acceptable. Link.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)WILL make anyone who is paying attention begin to wonder about your true intentions here on DU.......
Dorner did some VERY bad things and he paid the price. That doesn't mean that LAPD has clean hands in the racism/bad ethics department.
And that DOESN'T necessarily justify his extrajudicial killing.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)I'm not the one intent on picking a good guy in this scenario. I'm not the one insisting the Obama administration staged this or the whole thing was "caused" by the LAPD.
I'm not engaging in black and white thinking. I'm commenting on what I see.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Though for the record I had a young man today in real life compare this to WACO as a method to kill dissidents the evil Feds don't like. Yup, followed the tortured logic, it was just as jaw dropping.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Many.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)You've said it at least twice, while ignoring every other example. So I won't be surprised to see you claim the next ten examples you see are the "only one." Typical.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)trolls, then. DU has a few conspiracy theory nuts.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)There was an entire meta thread about it, and a couple popped up to defend the above OP. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=220190
I provided links to the other points elsewhere in this thread.
RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)BainsBane
(53,072 posts)Here you see people insisting that the police should have brought Dorner in alive, that he should have stood trial, despite the fact he refused to surrender and was shooting that them. They don't say how many more cops they would have seen killed to bring about that result. They are entirely unconcerned with the police who would have died to bring out the resolution they think appropriate.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2364793
When I point out that the Dorner was killing the family members of police officers, I get responses like this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2366398
Firewalkwithme doesn't even see the murders as relevant. He says this entire issue is about police corruption. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022364844#post3
See responses throughout this thread.
Elsewhere I cited a link to someone else who said the LAPD "caused" Dorner's murder spree and to someone who compares Dorner with Che Guevara.
beevul
(12,194 posts)"Here you see people insisting that the police should have brought Dorner in alive, that he should have stood trial, despite the fact he refused to surrender and was shooting that them."
Thats HAD shot at them, not "was shooting at them. Morally (to those that aren't bloodthirsty vigilante justice seekers) and legally those are two different things. There was no shooting going on when the fire was lit. Facts matter. Well, to most of us anyway.
Your first link is to an entire thread.
Your second link is to an entire thread - the same one, in fact.
Your third link quotes a poster saying "We who live with the LAPD every day have LONG referred to them as gang members with badges." That statemnent does not exactly support dorner.
Firewalkwithme is right. It IS about police corruption.
The poster you mentioned that compared "Dorner with Che Guevara", actually didn't.
You are not making any successful arguments with this.
polly7
(20,582 posts)BainsBane
(53,072 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)"... and decided his life means more than those of all the people--civilian and police alike--that he killed."
Which link? I can't find one that contains this.
Response to BainsBane (Original post)
devilgrrl This message was self-deleted by its author.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)You make very precise, harsh accusations without providing links on a site that easily allows you to do so. Many posters have asked for those links. The fact that you do not provide them is damaging to whatever point you think you are making. Without the links it is just you doing some name calling.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)Here is a post in which I site additional links:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2368790
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022367294#post65
Then there is the person who argued that the Obama administration staged the whole thing to justify their plans to spy on all Americans.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2347592
And a Meta thread where some defend that OP.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=220190
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Your OP was exacting and specific, claimed many DUers saying things you can not back up. I find your tactics to be less than worthwhile.
I lived in LA, we called LAPD gang members with badges. That's just a fact. You cite that? Sorry you don't like it, but they are a gang with badges.
Where do you live? Sure is not in LA.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)while trying to take Dorner dead or alive?
That just proves his point. Wer haven't really come that far since the shootout at the O.K. Corral.
P.S. The Newtown killer's name was Adam Lanza, not Alex.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)and use illegally excessive force and Dorner to still be a psychopathic killer. Evidence suggests both are true. What i object to is that you see police corruption as a reason for Dorner's murder spree. Your post here indicates as much. Am I mistaken?
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)My attitude is "a pox on both their houses".
cer7711
(502 posts)Last edited Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:16 AM - Edit history (1)
"Many here have bought into his excuses for going on a murdering spree and [have] decided [that] his life means more than those of all the people--civilian and police alike--that he killed."
......................................................
Two points here:
1.) If a DU member(s) has behaved in such a fashion wouldn't it be more efficacious, fair and pertinent to take it up with that member(s) directly?
2.) Your faulty reasoning demonstrates a logic error called "the fallacy of the excluded middle": either one is a doltish, ignorant, murderer-coddling sympathizer (possibly equally as psychopathic as Dorner himself) OR one is a smart, psychologically-astute moral exemplum of Homo superior who dismisses the (alleged) egregious wrongs done to Dorner as so much sick fantasy. Your argument is a binary, either/or proposition, devoid of nuance or shading. You have excluded the possibility that many thinking, functioning human beings capable of moral reasoning can decry Dorner's behavior while at the same time remain troubled by his allegations-- allegations that have been, in the main, verified as true and substantive by other witnesses in this case (rampant racism in the LAPD, police brutality, the humiliation and stress inflicted on Dorner by his fellow officers for having brought incidents of unwarranted and excessive police violence to light).
..........................................................
"You'll fallen for the PR of a psychotic killer." [sic]
..........................................................
Umm . . . No. See above.
...........................................................
"Too bad James Holmes or Alex Lanza didn't write manifestos. They might have fan clubs here as well."
............................................................
Non sequitur. (That does not follow.)
Inquiring into the motivation and triggering causes of those sick, sad souls who commit horrific acts is not to excuse or justify their actions. Understanding that the Treaty of Versailles inflamed German nationalism by saddling the defeated powers with the entire costs and blame for the war does not mean that one seeks to excuse or otherwise minimize Nazi atrocities in the war that followed. Learning that John Wilkes Booth came out of a certain Southern tradition and vehemently-hostile anti-Union social set and setting doesn't mean one applauds his assassination of President Lincoln in the particular or US presidents in general. And saying that Dorner's case raises troubling red flags concerning systemic and continuing police brutality, open racism and a culture of intimidation and cover-up is NOT the same as excusing or applauding the homicidal, anti-gay, misogynistic and paranoid narcissism of this deeply troubled (now dead) human being.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)Murderers are murderers. None are superior to the other. That some buy into one's argument doesn't make his victims any less dead.
Many here have fallen for the PR. Some respond to every thread about Dorner by talking about corruption in the LAPD, as though that explains Dorner's actions. This thread itself is replete with such examples.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)People in his past have said that not only was he extremely paranoid but that he'd get some wild theory out of the blue stuck in his head and become obsessed by it. For example, when that guy that used to work with him in the Navy talked about how he suddenly came up with a wild idea that some other sailor didn't actually earn one of the medals or ribbons or patches or whatever that he had on his uniform and became totally obsessed by it even breaking into the guy's personnel file.
Dorner had a long history of what I'd guess would be called paranoid delusions, and I think he actually truly believed the various fantasies his mind manufactured.
Anyone reading that manifesto should have noticed that he was a seriously disturbed person that was extremely dangerous. But for some reason here so many people only focused on his stories of corruption and though the entire thing was clearly written by a very dangerous and very mentally disturbed individual his accusations were taken as gospel truth. Though I have no doubt that there is corruption within LAPD, I'm not inclined to believe the accusations of someone who was so obviously a paranoid and vicious deranged person.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Laying the same charges in the last 72 hours? Since they have not gone off and shot up the neighborhood will they get a better hearing? I personally doubt it.
I find it troubling that people believe that actually seeing the very real corruption in LAPD somehow makes them supporters of Chris Dorner. Some of us, it seems a few, can chew gum and walk at the same time.
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)There now will be no trial to hear all parts. We will not be able to see everything that would be brought forward on both sides so we get a clear view of all things. One part of the story is gone. Add to it the way the much iffiness due to that manifesto, the way the LAPD has so much iffiness on what and how they told the public, the (sadly) unreliable reporting due to all the news agencies wanting to be first with all the breaking news, we will never have all the facts that a court trial would shine light on.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)That is what Clint Van Zant was saying on MSNBC last night during Hardball in an effort to convince Dorner to surrender. He was saying Dorner's story would never be understood if he didn't turn himself in. And yes, we can't be sure of what the LAPD or, in this case, the San Bernardino Sheriff's dept (who was actually in control of yesterday's siege) says about the incident.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)I'd say there is another successful con game going on at the moment as well...
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)and who diagnosed that?
I suspect Dorner wasn't psychotic, but suffered from an unusual form of adjustment disorder that turns on dysfunctional sensitivity to a crisis of identity and seeks relief by mitigating unfairness.
You might consider googling 'post-traumatic embitterment' to get one, perhaps not THE one, alternative to considering Dorner psychotic.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)I meant psychopathic. I apologize.
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)There is a story that he found 8,000 and returned it and was honest to a t. If that was a big part of his identity, very easy for that belief to come into strong conflict with the real world.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)His crimes were too carefully planned. A psychotic person would not have been able to evade capture for so long. Not that I'm a profiler, but my original word choice was an unintentional mistake. Quite a bad one actually.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)In fact, we're quite capable of recognizing both of these things at the same time:
-The LAPD has a long history of corruption and is seeking to execute Dorner without trial - which screams "cover up".
-Dorner has become an evil bastard and needed to face trial for his evil deeds.
Believing the first doesn't mean the 2nd must be false. Nor does believing the second make the first false.
We aren't as stupid as Republicans. We are capable of nuance.
Are you?
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)in this thread and elsewhere, as well as in the OP. Some people are not as smart as you give them credit for.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Literally. Kneel on down and blow goats.
Who? Oh, some people. I'm just going to assert they exist without any evidence. It'll form a great strawman for me to attack.
Sound familiar?
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)PDJane
(10,103 posts)He murdered people, and nothing can excuse those actions. On the other hand, having watched cops in action, he inevitably had a point. And yes, he was burned to death deliberately, and there is no way he was going to be allowed to give himself up. And yes, he knew that too.
Can we just give up on beating this particular thoroughly dead horse and go back to the state of the union or something?
Incitatus
(5,317 posts)As far as his so called con game working, I don't see many people as you claim saying he was justified in his murders. There might be a FEW, but not many when compared the the number of members commenting in these threads. Most people that I see commenting recognize the difference between his reasoning and whether he was justified a FEW do not.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)Is if someone said the Dorner incident points to the problems in the LAPD, rather than the problems in the LAPD CAUSED Dorner to act or EXPLAINS his actions. I guess it depends on how many we mean by many or a few DU members, but enough to notice seem to think the main issue seems to be about LAPD corruption rather than his desire to kill. I find it interesting that people are very keen to understand this particular murderers psyche and not Adam Lanza or James Holmes. Murders are murderers. Lanza was particularly egregious because he targeted children, but Dorner also justified liking children and likely would have done so given the opportunity. The very fact that people are so interested in understanding his motivates tells me his manifesto was effective. And I call that manifesto a con job because it sought to justify his murder spree.
Now, I'm all for addressing police corruption. I myself live in a city with a notoriously bad police force. But I don't like to see it tied to an explanation for murder.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)mia
(8,363 posts)No justification for that.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)I've provided several such examples. Tell me again how no DUers buy into Doner's manifesto and justify his actions?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=398727
"I believe him when he says that he was ruined and cast out by an evil, untrustworthy system, and he then chose to fight it on his own terms. When state corruption and militarized disorder are the standards, retributive justice gets labeled terrorism and subversive."
PDJane
(10,103 posts)BainsBane
(53,072 posts)and then get angry when it's provided. Why worry about a few dead people. It's not like their lives matter to you.
Perhaps you should find something better to do than making cheap, sexist insults.
PDJane
(10,103 posts)I said nothing sexist, nor did I say the dead people don't matter. In fact, over and over I've said the opposite. However, I did say that the LAPD did not give this chance a man to live, nor did they intend to. I don't glorify violence, on either side of the divide. I also didn't ask for 'evidence' of anything.
I did say that I'm tired of the whole situation. Someone is dead in a deliberately set fire, and that's evidence. That it might or might not have been Dorner is also true, although it is likely to have been Dorner. Yeah, there are all kinds of nuances, but no matter what 'evidence' you have provided for a question I didn't ask, there's a bunch of evidence that proves that the LAPD was determined to kill him, no matter what. There was not likely to be any justice anywhere in the situation, so can we please talk about something that might provide something else to think about?
great white snark
(2,646 posts)There are a number of DUers who really, really hate anything law enforcement. Mind you I'm not talking about the rational distrust-I'm talking folks who wish cops dead. Those are the people who will always defend the target of police actions no matter what.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)Before this event. Then they insist I'm imagining it all, which seems to be a common response when people don't agree with your personal assessment of some of the opinions on the site. One maintains that argument, insisting there is no evidence Dorner killed anyone, while he has decided the police who pursued the fugitive are murders. Dorner should have been put on trial, but he just KNOWS all police lie and kill for the hell of it.
I'm not saying there aren't plenty of corrupt police. But I see no reason to make such blanket proclamations in this particular case without evidence. Police perform a vital function. Without them there would be vigilantes running around killing people all the time, complete lawlessness.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Google, "Holmies."
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)Because Dorner has a whole contingent here. Charles Manson has a fan club too. There are always nuts that support killer. Dorner, however, wrote a manifesto that convinced more than most killers succeed in doing.