You can say that "some men don't get it". You can even say that "many men don't get it".

[Nye Bevan]

But please don't just say that "men don't get it".

[lumberjack_jeff]

1. And their efforts, among other things, have paid dividends.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=913013

The incidence of rape has declined 85% in the last 25 years.

[ismnotwasm]

7. I hate the idea

That men need access to porn to not rape which is what the paper is suggesting.

[redqueen]

9. People who hold that view think *very* little of men. nt

[ismnotwasm]

11. That's always been my impression

It's also an incredibly inaccurate impression given what a collective effort has been made by different organizations to stop rape-- and continues to do so.

I was just going over stats at RAAIN;

Sexual assault has fallen by more than 60% in recent years.2 Had the 1993 rate held steady, 6.8 million Americans would have been assaulted in the last 13 years.
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/frequency-of-sexual-assault

[lumberjack_jeff]

10. Society is doing something right.

I don't pretend to know what that something is.

[ismnotwasm]

12. Yes

And now all rape is being acknowledged, including male rape.

I think they thought under reporting and official definitions accounted for the decease, but the numbers have held up.

[knightmaar]

13. That's just a correlation

What's more likely is that a society which has a more open attitude toward sexuality and sexual freedom is going to have less rape and more pornography.

[lunatica]

24. Rape is not about consensual sex

It's about power and control. No matter who is raped, the rapist is acting to control the victim through brute force in a way that is degrading in the extreme.

[GaYellowDawg]

27. This.

And if you look at how some dominance behaviors in animals mimic sexual behaviors; e.g., mounting, etc. - in addition to other evidences, there's a very reasonable biological basis for the assertion that rape is about power and control.

[SemperEadem]

59. exactly

why it is that some people cannot understand that point is a wonder of the ages.

[EOTE]

17. What does it matter why the incidence of rape is dropping?

So long as it's a legal, safe activity that leads to it? If the rate of murder increased while the incidence of rape decreased, that might be something to be concerned about. But the increase of porn consumption? Who cares?

[ismnotwasm]

18. Because they should be two different topics

And the OP linked to an article that correlated the two. Come on, think about it. This isn't an anti- porn thread.

[EOTE]

21. The OP links to no article.

If you're referring to the first response to the OP, it seems pretty dead on to me. There are many countries which go out of their way to censor pornography of all forms, those countries often have horrific rates of rape and other violence toward women. To act as if a country's attitude toward porn doesn't effect attitudes toward women is ridiculous.

[ismnotwasm]

23. There are more factors than pornography in those countries

I'm gong to stop here, because I don't want to hijack this thread, and I did mean the first response, ---a bit disingenuous are you?---ok.

If pornography is all that's needed to stop rape, it says some pretty horrific things about men and porn consumers.

[EOTE]

25. Sorry, I believe words mean things.

I'm objective like that. I would try to address your emotions if you'd prefer to make those available. And it says some pretty horrific things about your intellectual abilities if you can manage to turn every loose bit of information you have and turn it into a slam on men.

[Katashi_itto]

57. Damn I hope it's not an anti-porn thread...!

You'll pry my porn out of my cold dead fingers...!

[Raster]

63. It's not porn they'll have to pry out of your fingers....

[Katashi_itto]

65. hahah! :)

[seabeyond]

32. 85%? now a days it is 1 in 4-6 women raped, depending. so it is 1 in 2? 3? women raped

25 yrs ago?

and that works for you?

edit... college girls and military 1 in 3... today. that is with a 85% drop.

[lumberjack_jeff]

38. The DOJ polls 40,000 households each year.

They ask;
"Incidents involving forced or unwanted sexual acts are often difficult to talk about. Have you been forced or coerced to engage in unwanted sexual activity by -
(a) Someone you didn't know
(b) A casual acquaintance, or
(c) Someone you know well?"

They concluded;
In 1980, .24% of people had been raped in the previous 12 months.

In 2011, .04% of people had been raped in the previous 12 months.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/ncvs109.pdf

I don't feel a need to reconcile this with any other estimates.

[spooky3]

36. SSRN papers have NOT been peer-reviewed.

Until that paper has been published in a top journal, it carries little weight.

The author is apparently a lawyer by training, and not a social scientist, and may lack the training in methods to do a study of that type.

I'll withhold judgment for now.

[lumberjack_jeff]

37. His conclusions about causality aren't really the point.

The Bureau of Justice statistics polls 40,000 households each year, and have tracked the incidence of rape through the years and have found that women are 85% less likely to say that they had been raped in 2011 than in 1980.

Is it because of porn, or heavier punishment or guys wearing high heels? I don't know, but it doesn't really matter.

[spooky3]

41. I said nothing about causality.

Let me know when the paper is published in a top journal.

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. Then what's the problem?

Is it that you don't believe the department of justice?

Personally, I don't really think that the 85% reduction in rape can be attributed entirely (or even mostly to porn). A big share of the credit goes to enlightened social mores.

[Bigmack]

2. Probably going too far here, but...

..I would wager that any man who is sensitive enough to identify with the struggles of women has a LOT better chance of some lovin'.

Very few women like the "cave man" approach.

[smirkymonkey]

53. I would have to agree with you there.

Most women I know think the whole macho stance is a total joke.

[MotherPetrie]

3. k&r

[Ghost in the Machine]

4. I have always said that rapists should be castrated with dull, rusty butter knives...

...and I'll go to my grave believing that.

Ghost

[el_bryanto]

5. That just seems cruel

Think of the poor sap who has to carry out this punishment - it'd take all day with a rusty butter knife.

Bryant

[Ghost in the Machine]

14. Would dull, rusty hedge clippers be better??

Or how about letting the victim do it? "All day" would be nothing, compared to the lifetime of suffering/emotional trauma she will experience...

Ghost

[jtuck004]

16. Why? It's assault, not sex. There are better ways to just hurt someone if that's

what you are after. One can make people scream for a long, long time and never touch their sexual organs, if you just want pain.

[Ghost in the Machine]

40. Assault??? It's SEXUAL ASSAULT....

Cut their dick off, they won't rape again, will they??

One can make people scream for a long, long time and never touch their sexual organs, if you just want pain.

Sounds like torture to me... I could write you a book on physical, mental & emotional torture....

Just sayin.....

Ghost

[jtuck004]

46. Has nothing to do with sex. It's about power. No more than a police officer

is having sex with someone when shoving a broomstick in them.

Nothing to do with sex.

[Ghost in the Machine]

48. Well I guess we will have to politely agree to disagree then, ok? Or at least see both sides

When a guy takes advantage of a girl who has had too much to drink and is too drunk to legally consent, or the guy who slips a mickey or rapes a passed out female, it's about sex.... a quick, easy piece of ass.

On the other hand, when you have a predator or serial rapist who just abducts, or breaks into the homes of, random women, then I can see the "Power play" you speak of. He's holding all the cards and calling all the shots through fear and intimidation of his victim.

Two different scenarios, two valid points... yes?

Peace,

Ghost

[jtuck004]

50. Ok. And yes, of course. I just don't create the distinction - I think it's about power.

over someone. Someone immobile, perhaps, but someone. I think dealing with that will prevent more, so I cling to the hope.

But that's just me.

We are still on the same side

[Skittles]

56. if it was only about sex, all men would assault passed out women

but they don't - with your first scenario, it is both sex AND power

[SemperEadem]

60. your first example is rape

and the courts in this country see that behavior as rape/sexual assault.

One must have consent in order for it not to be rape. If none is given, no matter what state of consciousness the victim is in, then it's rape. Period.

[GaYellowDawg]

26. I can't even think of a punishment for rape.

How do you devise an appropriate punishment? How do you take something from the rapist that's equivalent to the violation of person and spirit that is rape? I used to think that the victim should determine the punishment, but would that be therapeutic or would it be a responsibility that would just add to the trauma?

The only thing that I can come up with about how we discuss rape, how we address rape, and how we punish rape, is that the most important voices in the process need to be the voices of the raped.

[Ghost in the Machine]

42. I agree 1000% with your second paragraph... N/T

[caseymoz]

51. Problem would be what it does . . .

. . . to the psyche of the person doing the punishing.

You'd need a castrating drone.

[ismnotwasm]

6. And thank God for that

Human beings are at there best when working together to fight injustices.

[myrna minx]

8. K&R for our wonderful allies.

[Zorra]

15. +1 nt

[Little Star]

19. k&r

[felix_numinous]

20. Real change comes when we honor

and cherish those out there who are standing up for us. During peaceful times this same behavior would be considered just normal.

But during stressful times of great conflict, these same people become peaceful warriors.

Here is all of you out there who stand against racism, misogyny, homophobia and abuse (it's all connected). You are loved and needed in this world, don't ever think that just because you aren't personally thanked every time you aren't deeply appreciated, or that the ripple you make does not affect everyone around you! Thank you thank you thank you.





Peace~~Felix

[GaYellowDawg]

22. In all fairness

I got involved in another thread and scolded redqueen and seabeyond for something like this, and I was wrong about it. I reread the thread and saw that I wasn't reading carefully enough. I don't think there are very many people at all on DU who say "men don't get it." It's usually qualified very specifically as "men who have X attitude don't get it." There are probably more people who read the former into what others are saying than there are those who say it.

Something else just hit me. One of the things that I teach is evolution. I try to be very patient as a teacher, but there are days when I want to scream to the world, "This is REALITY!! EVOLUTION IS OBVIOUS AND APPARENT!! HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THIS?!?" Given that, it becomes a lot more easy to understand how someone could get really impatient with refusal to acknowledge or listen to women's viewpoints without throwing their own assumptions at the issue.

[bettyellen]

30. Exactly... If you reread the thread it's condemning the passivity quite clearly...

And a few men with "reading comprehension" problems decided to talk about their personal issues and bruised feelings- anything but the OP.
Even sadder a few admit to deliberately withholding support to women because they are personally unhappy with a few.
It's a selfish and egotistical
world view. Sad to see here.

[GaYellowDawg]

34. But there is one thing to remember

And it's that most people tend to define the world in terms of their own experiences. So talking about personal issues isn't something that should be unexpected, in my opinion. It's also difficult to not knee-jerk react if you haven't read a thread thoroughly (I'm talking about me).

[bettyellen]

35. True Ga, will try to remember that! But.....

The more you read these threads the more you notice they get swarmed with men who want to use a few shitty experiences as an excuse to "withhold support"... Complaints about 'friend zoning' and reports that women are not enjoying having doors open are thrown out there as if they have any significance when discussing the thread.
It's ruined a lot of feminist leaning blogs because its so damned hostile and repetitive. Complaints about "tone". Please.

The few who split hairs saying there's a broad brush always find a way to disrupt and derail. Always. When your tone is sweet and you make a good argument they ignore it. If you call them on their bullshit, they resort to personal attacks like man hater. Very common behavior, even for self identified liberals.

[GaYellowDawg]

55. It comes down to a similar problem as with racism

Someone feels slighted by an individual and assigns the anger to a much broader group. I still remember a friend of mine telling me, "you piss someone off, and you've been an asshole. I piss someone off, and my whole race is called to account. That's one way you have privilege." Hit me like a ton of bricks, and that's when I understood that there was this whole range of really shitty experiences that I had been spared my whole life because of my skin color. And then the same thing applies to gender.

[bettyellen]

62. That's a really good assessment! It's kind of blown

My mind here at the examples men have given for not liking feminists or supporting women. Women not enjoying having a door opened for them, women dating jerks- instead of them!!- and that women reject or dislike being "protected" (or they knew a woman who did).
All these things - and the sore feelings involved are deemed more important to discuss. And the hurt turns to anger when you dare explain their hurt feelings over random incidents shouldn't actually be central to the discussion. They are being petty and vindictive towards women. And enjoy jumping in to disrupt discussions as payback. It's infantile.

[burnsei sensei]

66. Sure. I'll grant you that.

But there is one concrete reality of the rape issue that gets passed over time and time again.
Rape undermines social cohesion-- on every single level of the society.
The presence of rape undermines the ability to trust and the ability to define power in terms of law or objective rules.
Its presence undervalues compassion, and humiliates and blames the less-powerful.
Among lay people, I suppose the references to individual experience can be forgiven. But in debates of public policy and the social impact of public policy, there is no room for talk about personal relationships. Period.
This is a political website.
It's not a bitch committee.

[Sissyk]

28. Excellent!!

[whathehell]

29. This is very, very heartening to see.

Thank you, you guys that "get it"

We've been waiting a long time for this kind of support.

[smirkymonkey]

54. +1000

Nice to see!

[Uncle Joe]

31. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Nye Bevan.

[seabeyond]

33. yes. nt

[salin]

39. Great OP and thread

Reaffirming.

[WilliamPitt]

43. Win.

[Cha]

44. Thank you, Nye n/t

[Honeycombe8]

47. OK...the shoe pics got me. Those men really DO care, if they're willing to do that! nt

[Warpy]

52. Yeah, that one got to me, too

Nothing would persuade me to totter around in heels, although I do realize a three inch spike heel on an instep is a great way to discourage a subway perv.

But yeah, it's nice that men are waking up to the fact that rape hurts everybody around a woman, especially a male significant other who she might be withdrawing from and certainly will withhold trust from for a long time. Some are even waking up to the fact that men are the ones who will have to stop it. Pushing the burden off on the victims hasn't worked.

But yeah, I want to kiss those guys in heels. Since they wouldn't appreciate being kissed by Grandma, I'll restrain myself.

[Honeycombe8]

67. +1.nt

[demmiblue]

49. I get what you are saying, however...

If an LGBT member of this community were to say that, "straight people don't get it," or an African American member of this community were to say that, "white people don't get it," I would not be in the least bit offended. I know that they would not be talking about me.

[tclambert]

58. I agree with the sentiments here, but I will not march in high heels.

Give me comfy, sensible shoes, like nurses wear.

[duhneece]

61. I LOVE these pictures

Thanks for sharing.

[Orsino]

64. You can even say that some women don't get it.

Privilege and the ignorance it imposes hurt a lot of people, and women are no more monolithic than are men.