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(2,888 posts)Response to babylonsister (Original post)
freshwest This message was self-deleted by its author.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)They did not have live with societal conditioned definition of manhood.
They taught me better and to have higher expectations.
Response to seabeyond (Reply #3)
freshwest This message was self-deleted by its author.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)And I still wonder about women.
I saw these two threads one above the other on GD the other day, I thought it was pretty ironic.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)sexuality all their lives. it is easy enough to see.
males have societal, cultural, religious approval of their sexuality.
females have societal, cultural, religious disapproval of our sexuality.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)And it's used to manipulate both men and women for profit and power.
Both sexes get wildly conflicting messages on what is appropriate behavior, it's really a wonder we aren't even more screwed up.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)everything about the womans sexuality is giving to men. it is never them owning their sexuality. and with men, it is never handing their sexuality to women. it is always.... taking. (i am not talking rape)
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Because someone is going to use that admission of vulnerability against him, it took me to damn near sixty to completely learn that lesson but I have it down now.
And men are on the average more emotionally fragile than women I think.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)we discuss all this stuff regularly so they have the tools of handling it. i agree with you absolutely.
my oldest GF broke up with him last weekend. was hell. the other morning he comes in at 5 am, wakes me up, and tells me he needs to talk. he gets to be vulnerable and emotional and cry.... with me. NO judging. no repressing. but, we all spent an hour and half in conversation and he was able to put it in a healthy perspective. and i check in with him daily and he discusses.
it sucks fume, making men repress emotion as if they do not have it.
having boys, and knowing from the youngest of age how stupid it is, it is not something we demanded of our boys.
yes, in society they have to present an image. but then, as a woman, i dont want to be that "emotional, weak, weepy" woman i am supposed to be either.
uriel1972
(4,261 posts)Thirty years on I am trying to unlearn.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)And massive amounts of heart trauma. As another poster said, not going to be that white knight anymore.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)specific. i expect it from myself as a woman and all women, just as much as i expect it from men.
that is all that is being discussed here.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)timdog44
(1,388 posts)I saw a study the other day that stated that porn viewing on the internet is almost equally divided between men and women.
Not to OP point, but to yours.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)on who views porn more.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)will show up to try to say you are wrong. But yes younger women are more open to pornography just like men. Times are changing but the feminist movement will remembered in the history books at this current pace.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)...and many other atrocities (actions and verbally) rained-down upon Women.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)or only to women tho?
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)...throughout the ages.
They pretty much agreed with my thinking on the subject .
Having said that...The men I know and have formed a relationship with (Friends) tend to be scientists and or jazz musicians with
an understanding or caring attitude regarding the world.
I'll admit..after thinking about it, I might just be seeing your subject through the proverbial Rose Colored Glasses.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)marions ghost
(19,841 posts)scientists, medical people, researchers, artists, musicians but also some small farmers and plant people --men with understanding and a caring attitude are the ONLY men I want to know. I'm lucky, as this also is the type of guy my dad, brothers, and in-law men are/were. So when I am thrown with the overtly sexist types, it's jarring. I always know where they're coming from, not a good place.
HOWEVER--re. Rose Colored Glasses--as sympathetic as all the good guys are --and if it weren't for yall the world would be a really terrible place --there is still a societal abuse of women that is not well understood or accepted. Maybe it's just that the degree to which women have to overcome obstacles on a daily basis, and the stress of that, is not recognised. Maybe that blindness comes from guilt, as what man has NEVER thought he was better off as a man (ie. felt sorry for women)? --and what woman has never thought that it's better to be a man? We live with the subtle unspoken fact that being a man has perks and privileges that being a woman does not. Women still are second-class citizens in this world--even as many are scrambling to change this, and the future does looks brighter. (The future looks brighter for men being able to break out of traditional male expectations also). But the sense of entitlement that even good men grow up with is very hard to change. As long as the general public thinks that having a boy is better than having a girl this will be so. And as long as Rethuglicon and Teabagger thinking finds widespread support...we are in danger of going back to to the real Dark Ages re women. Women are feeling this and fearing this. The gains feel very fragile.
So imagine if you can, what it is like to grow up knowing that you are going to have to fight the female "situation" your whole life, that you are less important in some eyes. To me the bottom line is that women (no matter how successful) often wish they were men, whereas men do not envy women. Whatever can be said to be women's positive values or traits are ridiculed or unappreciated. It is still true that the most successful women are those who can "act like a man."
One day---when men and women can break free of traditional roles and be who they are really are...individual composites of yin/yang (however you define the dichotomies)...that day is quite a ways off. But I can imagine it.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i like very much. addressing it from a new angle.
thought provoking, lol. the best. a little more of the onion.
thanks.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)to you and parents reading this who are also working at this in a conscious way.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)provided by the patriarchy. it is freeing for them and that in and of itself is its own reward. which makes it all so very easy for our young boys that are made aware of the restrictions to both genders, and the damage and harm it cause both genders.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)A part of me also believes that you underestimate the fact that some people are able to put themselves in somebody else's shoes through some of their own personal experiences. Not necessarily 100% but enough to know an applicable amount of fear and frustration and torment on a daily basis...and therefore what women experience.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)if he asks questions to better understand. sheeesh, my 13 yr old son (a few years back) recognized a man was being awfully sexist in a conversation. talking down and condescending to me having to do with my car. i didnt pay much attention cause i just went over him to the boss and told him what i wanted. but a little later my son said something to me. i was thrilled he was able to recognize without any nudges from me.
so, yes.
but, i think that ghost is saying is there is a natural instinct within us that does not want to see.
i love this cartoon.
hey, and it is with both genders. until i could see, i couldnt see so much, only some.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)both men and women are exploited by ruthless corporate interests, maybe that understanding will spread.
I do think that some smarter, more perceptive men are sympathetic, but it is only human to feel the "thank god, at least I'm not a woman..." type of empathy, when you yourself are under stress. The corporates who control us love to keep us all in fear and frustration, & divided. We are all stressed more than we should be. Hard to feel generous and positive, in these uncertain times.
So--how do you see the "rose-colored glasses" you refer to?
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)...are reluctant to say an unkind word (just about) anybody else.
I'd like to see the world as it really is but the thought actually unnerves me.
As it is, I'm just crawling through reality...trying not to step on anybody's dreams.
ancianita
(36,133 posts)pretty and passive themselves. Dance videos? Sorry.
Nice try with her videos but they do a pretty electric slide by solutions, and even make women look as if they needn't be taken seriously. I'd venture that Eve Ensler makes the male power structure chuckle -- and dominance-driven laugh -- with her feel-good non-solutions. If these videos have even entered their radar.
I would offer that Andrea Dworkin had better explanations about the passivity of men and offered better solutions than pointing and dance videos. Andrea Dworkin showed how passive men are complicit in maintaining the male social, religious and economic power structure that invisibly keeps women struggling and suffering.
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)I think, rather, that the issue here is how sexism and misogyny are so institutionalized and so embedded in society, that the ideology of said sexism and misogyny is pervasive.
Speaking for myself as a man...I can be empathetic and sympathetic, I can try to understand, and I like to think of myself as well-intentioned, but I know in my heart I will not completely see things from a woman's perspective, just as a white person, I literally cannot completely, 100%, see things from the perspective of a person of color, or as a straight person, see things from the perspective of a member of the LGBTQ community.
All of this, of course, doesn't mean that I shouldn't do my damnedest to try to be aware, understand, empathize, and bridge the gaps of experience and social class. Ignorance or apathy is no excuse for bigotry.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)what the woman is saying that as a man, you can speak for and to men, and be all over it from a mans perspective.
so when men are sexist and misogynist, you know as a man that that is not a biological action, innate of men, and as a man can speak out to men.
i have always felt that i have a responsibility to speak to the wrongs of women, to women, because i am a part of that group. i will be heard most because i am a part of that group.
just as i feel americans should stand up to americans. christians should stand up to christians. men need to stand up to men when their behavior is sexist and it not be acceptable.
nothing makes me feel better than to hear my husband say something out loud, for my boys to pick up, that is supportive of women. that is so much more effective than my voice. simply because he is a man, and understands the life of man.
thanks for your post. you made me think thru it a little more.
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)Us men do have a responsibility to stand up to other men, I agree.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)... you write in support of a post in which a woman tells you what men think.
If you "know in your heart that you will never completely see things from a woman's perspective", then why treat the OP as useful and productive? Do you believe that women are capable of knowing what you think to such a degree that she's qualified to explain those thoughts to you?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)And you're characterizing that as somehow a bad thing? How is it unreasonable? (Without making it about you or the plight of men) how is that a bad or unreasonable thing?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)It is much appreciated.
Bucky
(54,065 posts)Excuse me... "good men". Obviously the bad men don't believe buy into idiotic sweeping generalizations.
Bucky
(54,065 posts)Maybe if Ms Ensler directed her anger at Republican congressmen who make casual dismissals of the horrors of sexual assault, she'd do the cause more good.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)As if its all about them personally.
Call it derailing, or gaslighting but a common reaction of good men is to take offense and of quibble instead of considering that there's a lot of truth to what women are trying to tell you.
Instead of supporting or listening to women, we had a whole lot of threads from men about how THEY are good guys, and only sociopaths rape, so it's inevitable. You know, the nice guy way of telling us to STFU about it.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)Hosnon
(7,800 posts)they shouldn't implicitly accuse them of being passive about rape.
Doing so can justifiably be perceived as aggressive/accusatory, which is not very effective when trying to explain something or win allies.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Whether its because they want to split hairs or go on about some random woman not being nice to them.... It starts to be all about them. And it's not about an individual man ...never was. This word game gets played out after the first 30 or so times.
Commonly, they don't want a honest discussion.
Hosnon
(7,800 posts)This seems like a good lesson in how to start a conversation.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)True for some, no doubt!
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)Otherwise, it's a statement to start a discussion. Why so defensive?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Rejection by random individual females is a big excuse. Also angry some women support the patriarchy, and some don't.
And some women were snippy!
So, yeah the OP is an attack on them. A well deserved one.
Kath1
(4,309 posts)If you haven't seen The Vagina Monologues yet, do yourself a favor.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)All in all, I think men have taken the bulk of responsibility for protecting family and country.
Think about how many have been beaten, mutilated and killed in doing so. Millions.
Now ask again.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:09 PM - Edit history (1)
And for many- it continues today. They are not just doing this out of the good of their hearts, its purely selfish behaviour. It's on this thread.
If they stopped looking at everything (including women) as something to be taken, it would go a long way to change things.
Edited to clarify- we were talking about men "have always protected" home and country, as if its a good and pure thing. Sorry- it ain't selfless when you profit, and the majority of men have.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)the post kinda didnt work.
want to talk about men in the past being the ones putting their life out there, fine. (now a days it is both gender that puts life out there)
but, the point of the post really did not work.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)and that is what you reduce it to?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)And refuse to examine how you all got yourselves into that position in the first place. That's complete bullshit.
No one said you're evil- but it appears you're unable to have an honest conversation about it.
It appears whining and licking your wounds is the only thing you have to offer.
That's how you derail. Fuck that, were sick of the whining.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Either smear us because we stand around passively allowing you to fight your own battles, or because, "driven through madness into action" we chivalrously ride to the rescue of helpless lady fair.
...but stop trying to have it both ways.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)(Women in general)in order to even find it.
Seems like the guys here prefer not to even consider that there might be a better way. Because stewing in resentment is more fun?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)We as citizens must do everything practically possible to prevent criminals (men or women) from victimizing (men or women).
In a society based on equality, neither men nor women are relegated to a more prominent place among the population of victims or offenders.
All forms of violence and victimization must be reduced even further. As noted downthread, the rape incidence today is one-fifth what it was when I was a teen, and it is appropriate to applaud that success while setting up the conditions to make even more improvement in the future.
Collective guilt doesn't help, it harms.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)You don't fool me.
And your stats are way skewed. Like it or not, men are much more prone to serious physical violence. I don't know why you'd bother trying to imply otherwise.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)While Ms Ensler thinks "good men" are too passive to prevent violence against women, it seems to me that this is better than pretending it isn't happening.
When a man beats a woman, it's a crime. When a man beats a man, it's a fight. When a woman beats a man it's "you go girl".
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:54 PM - Edit history (1)
It's an epidemic.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Although all forms of violent crime are down, rape has declined 85% since 1980.
It's appropriate to spread that awareness, attention and focus to the bigger picture of violent victimization.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Basically asking men to ALSO deal with it productively.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)If only women and girls answered the questioner in the affirmative, then this roughly equates to one 1.7 women per thousand per year (.17%). If the average woman lives 60 years in adulthood, her lifetime risk is about 10%.
In 1980, the victimization rate was 2.4 people per year, (or .48% of women). If 1980 rates had remained stable, that is a lifetime risk of about 29%.
Here's something to consider. Feminist theory says that men run this society and are responsible (via "the rape culture" for the crimes perpetrated by other men (that is in fact the basis of the OP).
If that is true, then men ARE dealing with the crime of rape "productively" by having reduced your risk by 85%
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)pat yourself on the back. Men own 99% of this problem. Instead of having an honest discussion, they complain about women not being nice enough to them. You start to get the sense they feel women have this coming to them.
At any rate, that study departs so radically from every other study ever made (and leaving out under 12 year olds is just horrible) that it is just not credible. But i won't get sidetracked by attempts to imply its not a serious issue anymore. Not having that discussion with you.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)A 10% lifetime risk constitutes a serious issue. It's unnecessary and counterproductive to invent statistics for the purpose of denigrating the progress we've made as a society.
The DOJ isn't "just another study". They are the official numbers.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)BainsBane
(53,066 posts)if you actually read some feminist theory before mis-characterizing it.
BainsBane
(53,066 posts)Women commit far fewer violent crimes than men, and they are prosecuted for domestic violence. I'm sorry your life is miserable and that you despise women, but lying doesn't help your case at all.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)BainsBane
(53,066 posts)and your hatred of women is evident whenever you post. It's sad really. It's like working class whites blaming unions for their poverty. It's completely nonsensical.
Look at rape stats. 99% of perpetrators are male, and 91% of victims are female. You would blame women for those 9% of rapes committed against men. Blaming women for crimes clearly perpetrated by men makes no sense.
Why must you think of yourself as victim? If you developed a more positive outlook, you would do a lot better. Going around blaming women for your problems in life is absurd. So a woman dumped you. That doesn't make women responsible for all the evil on earth. We all get dumped. That's part of life. I was married to a physically abusive husband. If I nursed the amount of hostility toward men that you do toward women, It would only make me miserable. 25% of women in this country are raped. They eventually recover, and many go on to marry and sustain other loving relationships. The reason to let go of resentment is because you are the one who suffers most. Whatever woman wronged you doesn't feel your anger. Only you feel it. One becomes prisoner of his own resentment. It poisons life.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)But then again, I'm not the one psychoanalyzing you.
And an ad-hominem is not "evidence". The dictionary is your friend. Look up "projection" while you're in there.
BainsBane
(53,066 posts)with women. I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt that you had some personal hurt that prompted your resentment Obviously I was mistaken. Your misogyny is a committed philosophical choice.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)You can understand my issues with women by understanding that I don't have any.
BainsBane
(53,066 posts)That you hate women is one of the them.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Your ability to argue a point is tragically and irredeemably compromised.
That's what "obvious" means.
BainsBane
(53,066 posts)take your posts to a shrink and ask him. See what he says.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)BainsBane
(53,066 posts)Oh, you thought I might bear some shame from having gone to a shrink? Nope. None. No more than anyone should be ashamed for going to an MD.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)It might be reasonable to question my general state of physical health.
BainsBane
(53,066 posts)aren't any more understandable. I give up.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)BainsBane
(53,066 posts)Your taunts merely reflect your own character. You can't effect how I feel about myself. You don't have that kind of power.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Last edited Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:00 PM - Edit history (1)
It's what you get after the third time you call someone a woman-hating misogynist.
BainsBane
(53,066 posts)Don't express your views in public. Or if you must, own them.
BainsBane
(53,066 posts)another swipe at my mental health. Classy, Jack.
BainsBane
(53,066 posts)Within the US, women are men are close in rates of victimization of violent crimes:
Table 2. All personal crimes men 2,693,460 21.9 women 2,299,760 17.8
Perpetrators of violent crimes are overwhelmingly male. It's not even close.
Table 38 Single offenders:
Crimes of violence 3,652,340 100 % 77.6 19.0 3.4 (sex of offender)
Table 44 multiple-offenders:
Crimes of violence 946,580 100 % 63.0 9.2 19.6 8.2 (sex of offender)
http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=2218
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:00 PM - Edit history (1)
FWIW, you still don't have it right.
The victimization rate for violent crime against men is 25.4%, among women it is 19.8%. That's nearly a 30% difference.
In fact, the men's victimization rate rose 27% last year.
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv11.pdf
BainsBane
(53,066 posts)You blame women for violence against men. That is delusional.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Collective guilt much?
BainsBane
(53,066 posts)collective guilt is what you impose on all women.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)"I was married to an abusive man, so men should be punished".
It's your leap from "man" to "men" that I have a problem with. It's the definition of stereotype.
BainsBane
(53,066 posts)Provide one example. Go on. Given your assertion they should be easy to locate.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Otherwise it is completely irrelevant.
Women need protection!
-Most violent crime victims are men.
Liar. Victimizers are usually men.
-"A" has no relevance to "B". Besides, a) is true and here is the proof.
If you're not saying that men should be punished, or deserve lesser consideration when victimized, your trademark phrase is a complete non-sequitur.
But it isn't a non-sequitur. You are clearly saying that men who are the victims of crime don't merit equal treatment... because they are men, like the perpetrator.
It's the same logic that gives racists the excuse to ignore inner city crime.
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/05/11/black-crime-who-cares
BainsBane
(53,066 posts)Last edited Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:41 PM - Edit history (1)
to counter your male victimization whine. You insisted that men were victims of crimes and women were perpetrators. I believe all criminals should receive a trail and be punished if found guilty. I do not--and never have--make exceptions based on sex. In fact, I have consistently argue that female statutory rapists be treated every bit as severely as male ones because the crimes are identical.
Your very argument equates maleness with criminality, while I made no such point. I merely pointed to statistics that show that men commit the vast majority of violent crimes because you insisted men were disproportionately victims, clearly a false assertion. Evidently you despise information so much that being presented with it is--for you--evidence of misandry.
You need to provide quotes where I make any of the absolutely absurd accusations you make. I NO Where said male victims of crime don't merit equal treatment.
I live in the inner city. I've spent all day defending Dorner's victims, many of whom are male police officers. You have no evidence for such accusations. Your responses are not rational.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Maybe it was the voices.
BainsBane
(53,066 posts)to support your allegations against me. And, one has to wonder, why you find the mere citation of crime stats so objectionable? You claim that by simply providing that information and nothing more I insisted that "all men be punished,' as though all men were criminals. Nor have you explained why you insist on blaming women for the fact that more men are crime victims, when statistically evidence shows that the overwhelming number of perpetrators are men.
Moreover, you appear to have no ability to defend your outrageous allegations and instead result to juvenile insults.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I don't think, and have never said, that women are to blame for the fact that most violent crime victims are men.
...Not that I really expect you to stop saying it anyway. At some point, the internal dialog becomes reality.
However, I do blame you (and those who think like you) that their victimization is acceptable because they are men.
a) I don't. See above.
b) We're making some progress. Now you're telling me "the facts" that just yesterday you called me a liar about.
c) Is a man mugged/assaulted/murdered by another man less of a victim?
Any answer to "C" other than "No." (including "No, but..." are proof of my theory.
BainsBane
(53,066 posts)One, where I claim "victimization is acceptable because they are men." That exists ony in your head, no where else. If you think otherwise, PROVE IT.
You claim the mere fact of citing crime stats indicates I think male victims of crime don't matter. If that were true, you have a massive lawsuit against DOJ, since they actually publish reams of crime stats. You hate facts because it contradicts your sad little persecution complex that all women are out to get you.
You've sad you have no personal experiences that indicate women are you enemies, so what causes you to hate us so? What makes you think you are threatened by competition from women who earn 77 cents for every dollar a man does?
muriel_volestrangler
(101,361 posts)I don't think you should be casting stones about juvenile insults.
BainsBane
(53,066 posts)1) his points are misogynist. That is hardly disputable. He refuses to see the obvious. So a psychological professional, I suggested, could evaluate them, not that he should consult a shrink for his mental health. As I made it quite clear, I see no shame is seeking psychological care, so how would that be an insult on my part?
2) are you really claiming his posts are rational?
3) I deleted the reference to delusional. Using your tenure as a juror to insult fellow members is not only unethical, it violates community standards. You are hardly in a position to pass judgement.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,361 posts)If you've seen the results of the jury on which I sat, it's clear I just said what I've said now.
I didn't say that.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2370759
REASON FOR ALERT:
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)
ALERTER'S COMMENTS:
Insulting someone for being mentally ill is a clear violation of community standards and TOS.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:35 PM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: BainsBane has, in this thread, said lumberjack_jeff was lying, needed to see a psychiatrist, and is delusional. Those posts have stood for hours. And yet, when lumberjack_jeff replies in kind with 'voices', the alert turns up within 3 minutes. With no evidence that the alerter has been trying to get BainsBane's posts removed too, I'm going to say that, since BainsBane is clearly fine with insulting someone for being mentally ill, there's no harm in this post.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Constant alerter whining and the resulting censorship and chilled atmosphere for people to speak their minds freely make DU suck. LEAVE IT.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Sorry, I don't see the insult.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Nope. Not going for it. BainsBain initiated that slander in this thread and the supposition of untrue facts, along with positing an argument to LJ that LJ did not make so that she could slander him for that argument. BainsBain sowed this and is reaping it now.
Not locking LJ out of this thread...wish I could send BainsBain and bettyellen to the doghouse though for making me read this, it's so logically-disjointed they broke the back of their own argumentation 25 posts ago. If you don't want to face insinuations that you're crazy, don't post crazy-talk.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: This thread is filled with anger and accusations flying back and forth. The poster whose post was alerted upon appears to be goaded into making a verbal mistake. I think everyone involved should attend group therapy together. (BTW, I'm female.)
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
I was juror #2. I insulted nobody - neither the alerter, nor you (though it now seems more likely that it actually was you alerting).
You regard lj as misogynist. He doesn't agree. That does not mean he should see a shrink. You have reaped what you sowed.
BainsBane
(53,066 posts)to attack me in this thread. Serving as a juror is a trust, not a vehicle for you to then use to attack members. The reference you refer to had been deleted a good 12 hours before your post in this thread.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,361 posts)I was pointing out your hypocrisy. And, no, what I pointed out has not yet been deleted from this thread:
You blame women for violence against men. That is delusional.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2363369
take your posts to a shrink and ask him. See what he says.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2370728
What you did edit out, after the alert result, in which I pointed out your use of accusations of mental illness, was post #459: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2370723 , from which you removed "That is entirely a function of your own paranoid misogyny", six minutes after the jury results were returned. So there was actually one more use by you of a mental illness term, against lumberjack_jeff, which seems to have been on your conscience. You then removed it, and proceeded to accuse l_j of 'juvenile insults', despite your own insults of him, and after the alert had been turned down 5-1.
There is nothing wrong with posting in a thread after serving on a jury for it. Many people do this, especially when they see an alert which they think is unjustified, and they think the alert and the claims behind it need to be seen in the open. When I saw you had accused l_j of 'juvenile insults' after you had been told, in the alert result, that you had done it first, I thought this needed to been seen by DU in general.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)The feminist movement is starting to paint itself in the corner with such conflicting messages. No wonder the younger generation looks down on it with so much disdain.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)conclusion is incorrect.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)this to be the case. Anti woman legislation is growing stronger in response to the dying feminist movement. To stop the growing anti woman legislation it will take more than shaming of men.
More and more younger men are choosing not to marry young, because of soaring divorce rates led by women. Instead they are choosing to puruse hobbies (gaming, lifting) or careers. Woman now have more independence, but they can't ask for the white knight to show up anymore because he isn't coming.
Can't have it both ways, and no there isn't a middle ground, because if you straddle that fence long enough it's going to hurt.
A woman telling what men should be thinking and feeling is equally as bad as men telling how a woman should deal with rape.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)moment of your time on womans issues.
ya, totally ignore the point on ALL the angry men that have supposedly checked out.
read the posters on du that are angriest toward women... they are men looking for love and cant find it. and are angry cause they cant. sad. but there to see.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)Women are adults, so either act like an adult, or you can go back to being called a girl that needs a helicopter parent hovering you to protect you 24/7. BTW I thought Beyonce was hot during her Super Bowl performance. You mad?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)And you know it and use it like a baby weapon. Anger all over the place.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)but, ya, i get that you want a level playing field on this sexist argument and go to great lengths to create.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)An OP entitled "If Consent Was Really That Hard, Whiny Dudes Would Fail At Every Aspect of Life"
Doesn't sound all that friendly.
How about this one: "Yo, dudes: Alpha males are a myth, according to actual experts on wolves "
or this one: "A Bunch Of Sad, Insecure Dudes Attacked A Woman And Everyone Got What They Deserved"
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)Call me a pascifist, passive, or weak male all you want. But I am already attacked on a daily basis for being kind to animals by men and women, or showing empathy for someone hurt. I don't need feminists to be piling on as well. Thanks for showing what an "empathetic" human being you are, and how "beautiful" you are as well.
May your infamy live forever.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)even suggest that you are about merely being passive. you are the problem. you cannot be the solution.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Many of us have pointed out in this thread that we DO help.
What we are wondering is why someone started an OP that says that men are passive and not helping.
It seems clearly counterproductive.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Are you implying women are making this up- just to make you feel bad? Kind of paranoid, no? And hella insulting towards women.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)A. The Passivity of Men
B. Why are some men passive?
A. The Cowardice of Men
B. Why are some men cowardly?
Are you, Betty, able to tell how the difference in grammar makes a dramatic difference in how those statements read?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Not men, not passive men.
You know what I'm over? This parsing bullshit.
You might not know what a dude is if you aren't an American, but you and too many men here are deliberately misquoting the OP. and then try and split hairs.
Won't participate in attempts to derail. Have at the false outrage all you want. It's crap, and only the angry (at women) young men here buy that BS.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)and then those men that are passive/aggressive with massive mood swings are not mentally stable. But then they are part of the problem too? So what men are left? Thanks for showing your true colors though!
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)that are on this thread, that address men like you. lol
what a fuckin' hoot.
no one expects a single thing out of you
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Are you living in your mom's basement?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)To be the dominant / protector or the silent enabler has an extremely limited view of their own capabilities. Shockingly regressive nonsense, sad to see this in DU.
RiffRandell
(5,909 posts)My husband will help people regardless of gender, race, age.
I do the same, and your post should be alerted on becuse it is beyond sexist. Look in the mirror. I am so appalled at what you wrote----I have to say you really give my gender (female) a bad name with posts like this.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)It is all too easy to forget that the people speaking out here are about three women in total and there opinion is clearly not representative or, after 411 posts, we would see the rest of the DU female community come out and support their man-bashing.
Instead, they have been left out to dry by the people they claim to speak for.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Men protecting us from other men.
Jeeze, thanks dudes.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Nope, never said that.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Historical role as protector and defender of their nation. And instead pointed out these were not selfless acts. You were irate.
You whined about it for several more posts scattered through out the thread. All that obsessing about the issue and it never occurred to you that we shouldn't be grateful because this "protecting" crap is basically a turf war caused by and perpetuated by men?
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Happy to see that you are still using the word "whine". Very grownup, Betty.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)And can't find their own posts about how we should appreciate how men bleed and die for us lovely damsels. Even though you refer to my response three more times, you've forgotten it all now.
You're sad that the violence and agression of men is not roundly celebrated on a progressive web site. I can't even wrap my head around that expectation. Good luck with that.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)You are living inside a world of your own making.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Men's tendency towards "protection" and the violence and war that comes with it is somehow a good thing. Sorry you're stuck in the last century.
You can deny all you'd like. It's here. I'm not going to fetch it for you.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)She (and those for whom she speaks) doesn't need our protection because doing so would only be an expression of our warlike ownership of her.
I kid. I know the answer. Men should be punished for proprietarily protecting and defending in response to Ms Hensler's plea, AND punished for passively ignoring them.
In other words, there's no way to do the right thing, which makes it impossible to take you seriously. If you're simply driven by antipathy toward men, there's no point listening.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)There is an echo of these threads, going back over 40 yrs. (the time when modern women's rights took to the streets). There was a time in modern feminism when men were told to shut the fuck up when it came to group decision-making, in favor of "concensus-building." A time when men were told to quit characterizing/analyzing women, in favor of self-determination (though women had no problem returning the favor, out of equity I suppose). A time when men were told they may hold up the end of the ladder, but to stay out of the contractor's trailer.
Many men did step aside in favor of some kind of passivity. Now, the game is different, and men are expected to pose while a new suit of armor is fitted.
And any "reasonable discussion" that doesn't follow the new narrative is met with rather standard pigeon-holeing responses that boil down to:
"See? You are the problem."
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)On what planet? You have to be joking.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)trying to have a reasonable discussion. In most cases, in this very thread, it comes down to the random grievances against individual women leaving them embittered.
Not reasonable or productive discussion. More like bald faced disruption.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)You might clarify your composition. Who and what is "disruptive?"
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)(which sounds damned reasonable to me) and let me know where all that "reasonable discussion" you see here that is met with anger and blame? Those are clearly your claims, are they not? Just trying to find the attacks on all those 'reasonable men".
'Many men did step aside in favor of some kind of passivity. Now, the game is different, and men are expected to pose while a new suit of armor is fitted.
And any "reasonable discussion" that doesn't follow the new narrative is met with rather standard pigeon-holeing responses that boil down to:
"See? You are the problem."'
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Good enough for a "good man?"
You should take ownership of your long-stale attitudes toward men. Fortunately, it seems most women (including those on D.U.) don't cotton to your views of men, either.
Take note: I have fought for women's rights for a long time, and will continue to do so.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)ain't as good as he thinks. There's nothing stale about asking people to live their values.
There is no "new suit of armor" or "white knighting" involved at all. No damsels in distress, LOL. Those are the fevered imaginings of of MRA. Their new talking points. Truly embarrassing stuff to read here.
Trust me, you have no idea how most women on DU feel. You know how five or six men who disrupt every thread they can find on the topic of feminism feel.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)they will survive the petty and petulant natterings of those nominally one your side, whose main goals are moral condemnation and superior self-exaltation at the drop of a hat. Keep your peculiar acronyms and electro-smirks to yourself. The battle for equal rights and self-determination of all peoples is more important to me than some shrill finger-pointing. Perhaps on the "front lines" somewhere we'll meet (for real) and gain a more positive appraisal of each other.
Would you like a Farenthold for Governor t-shirt?
It is quite old and no linger fits. Provide a "safe" land address and it is your's.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)seeing your vaguely hostile "natterings"
When you're next on the "front lines" please do share your complaints about about being fitted for new armor with my sisters. I can assure you the finger pointing will be accompanied by nothing more than robust guffaws. And you probably thought we were humorless!
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)anything at all that has been said here. It's MRA filth that doensn't even address the issue in the OP.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)And that's the origins of why men protected homes and nation- because there were direct benefits to them by doing so.
since I was responding to someone who was talking about "men have always" protected- I thought it would be clearer. Because we were their property not long ago.
I should fix it. Thanks!
Threedifferentones
(1,070 posts)I agree that a lot of the justifications for violence and war falsely claim killing to be about protection instead of ownership and dominance. But I think it is worth pointing out that a person who cannot engage in these monstrous behaviors themselves to any degree is more likely to be a victim. There is some truth to the idea that sometimes violence is necessary to protect you and yours.
I think taken to its logical extreme your post implies that fathers and mothers don't fight to the death for their kids because of the same emotions. A woman selflessly nurtures her children, while a man selfishly possesses them. This may be true for the gender roles of many patriarchal traditions, but I do not think it is naturally the case.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Men and women love their mates and their families and want to nurture and protect them. Period.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)We celebrate - that we thank men for are horribly tainted. And taking on the "role as protector" is actually a huge problem men cause themselves.
If they weren't what most often might need protecting from... then there might be something laudable about the whole thing.
Sadly- men have put themselves in the position of being both the sickness and the cure.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)That men are not equally treated either, certainly in ways different than a woman but societal expectations of men remaining largely unchallenged and unchanged. I had always thought that was my role, noone showedme otherwise andmy father was the same way, be strong, protect and serve. Has it gained me anything outside of what any man can expect? No. In fact I'm tired of it. It has proven worthless in relationships as I heal the wounded and protect the fragile only too see them leave without so much of a thank you when they have mended and found greener pasture. Yes, that part was a rant.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)My powers of prediction tell me you will soon be called a whiner and mocked for being a coddled child-man who expects that you will get "teh sex" just for being nice.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)But I will take your comment lightly. Because you are not me, and do not know me, it's understanding that you do not know what you are takling about. As I ended my comment as a rant, it would serve to inform those that I have a personal reason for doing so. I do not mind going into detail the reasons for my feelings but I will not go into greath length here. If you are interested I will message you with details of the past 20 years of my life starting with the most recent events.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I am not calling you those things. That was a preview of what you are likely to be called by the 3 or so women ripping apart everyone man on this thread.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)I read some other posts and was seeing the pattern there too. Sorry for my overreaction.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Shedding that role is difficult, but worthwhile if you want to engage with women on equal ground instead of as a protector. Those roles are a burden on both parties, in very different ways.
When you understand being a good person is its own reward and not expect a payoff, you will be much happier, and find others that want to be with you- instead of feeling compelled by your expectations.
theKed
(1,235 posts)The prevailing attitude seems to be that we're not wanted in that role.
EastKYLiberal
(429 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)decide a man is not .... fuckable.
what a whine.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Desperately hoping to get laid as a reward for pretending to be nice? Time to grow the fuck up!
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Please tell me that's sarcasm, and you're making fun of the misogynist fucks who think the 'friend zone' is an actual thing.
(Clue for any readers who are still clueless: There is no friend zone. There is friendship. If you want sex and your friend doesn't, move on, get over it - she's just not that into you. Women are not sex vending machines that you drop kindness coins into until sex falls out. Deal.)
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)I like
ismnotwasm
(42,008 posts)I'm going back to bed.
With the failure of VAWA, the constant and continual attacks on women's reproductive rights, the pay and authoritative position inequities, the standard cultural use of prostituting women's bodies to sell products, just for starters, and the response is terms like 'damsel in distress'? What the fuck?
Good thing MRA's derailed their own movement by creeper redditt sites among other things or this would be much worse.
Thank God for men like my husband, and my male friends who do speak up and support women's rights without devolving into a whining session. It's easy for them to be passive because of male privilege, but light a fire under them and they don't respond with 'what about me'
Oh, and
http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2013/02/the-wot-is-feminism-chart/
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)for SOME anyway. lol
have about all the derail and gaslight going on. gotta look up gaslight again
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Unless, of course, you're a really, really cynical person.
In which case, carry on....
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Please, by all means, enlighten us.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Upon reflection, I would not dare contradict your expertise in 20 year old memes from tv sitcoms. There's probably a whole online seminar you can get credit and stuff for it.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Let me get ny violin.
You really have the courage of your convictions, I'll give you that.
Also, tv sitcom meme? WTF are you talking about?
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)LOL....what a shock that the various crackpot bloggers you cite for all your important research don't know where the term "friend zone" actually came from. If they did, most people would realize it's an innocuous pop culture reference like the guys screaming "Waaaassup?" on the old Bud Light commercials and the Spice Girls, not a turgid phrase containing the treachery of entitlement and patriarchal control you want to build it up to be.
From Wikipedia:
The term "friend zone" was popularized by a 1994 episode of the American sitcom Friends, "The One with the Blackout", where the character Ross Geller, who was lovesick for Rachel Green, was not only declared being "in the friend zone" by their friend Joey Tribbiani, but was also labeled "mayor of the Friend Zone".[11] The question of whether a man can ever "escape the friend zone and begin dating one of his female friends" was a prime ingredient in making the Ross and Rachel pairing interesting to watch; one writer described the two as a "geek dream couple".
Mind you, I never watched the fucking show, I'm surprised they came up with something that clever honestly.
But of course, WTF am I talking about....you 'splained it for me.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)by self-pitying, sexless men.
Please do continue with your outrage... It's hilarious!
Holy shit... A crappy joke from decades ago, and pitiful men treat it like it's totally real and oh so seriously serious and earnestly painful stuff... My sides hurt...
Jesus... This honestly could not get any better...
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)I guess you should probably feel silly screaming about "misogynist fucks" and all that um, "non outrage" you display when the term comes up, but then again, that 's why you're you. Don't ever change.
I would still ask for a partial refund from Sylvia Plath College Online, though.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)And though I always knew they were also idiots, now I know just how severely idiotic they really are!
All the moaning and whinging and bellyaching... citing a joke from fucking Friends as a serious problem in their lives... Oh, the drama!
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)You seemed to be taking it very seriously until I dropped some knowledge about it. Now you're doing the Emily Litella bit and laughing it off.
Also, if you have the link to whatever blogs address this "serious issue" because I know a couple women who actually still use the term all the time and it sounds like they need to be re-educated lest they become misogynist fucks.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I'm real sorry that you're unaware of how the term is most commonly used.
You act like you understand the term better than anyone else, then refuse to explain what it "actually" means, making some nonsensical comment about cynicism... ... Then you cite Wikipedia for the origin... And now you claim not to know jack shit about common usage, ouside of a couple of women you know. LOL
Good luck with gaining a deeper understanding of cultural use than Wikipedia provides. Until then, enjoy pretending.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)I'm apparently unaware it became a euphemism for mass genocide sometime between 1994 and now.
Let's talk about cynicism and the definition of the term.
Noun
1. A platonic relationship where one party develops romantic feelings that are not returned. Also known as "unrequited love".
In myyyyy day long before we had MP3 players and HDTV....back when AOL was cutting edge and Paula Abdul was only about four years removed from musical relevance....that term was used (not by me) to describe a platonic relationship between a guy and girl that had hit an impasse where one person wanted the other to be their girlfriend/boyfriend and the other just wanted to remain platonic. That's it. And yeah, both guys and girls went through it. Now yes, I understand what that all entails TO YOU....OMG, someone's gonna eventually want to have SEXUAL INTERCOURSE....and that, ESPECIALLY if you are a man (AND YOU JUST KNOW IT'S MAN because they always want their penis in something!), is bad....very, very bad. Entitlement and all that.
Funny thing about us kids from the 90's, though. In between listening to Pearl Jam and watching "Pulp Fiction" is that we weren't really as jaded as you are. It wasn't always about sex. Sometimes (I know this is hard for you to grasp) a guy or girl actually fell for a friend. They hung around one person enough, and shared the same interests in music and movies and art and sports that yeah, one person developed greater feelings for the other than was reciprocated.
I went through it. Started hanging out with a girl. Honestly, I thought she was a flake when I first met her. Then one night, because of some bizarre circumstances, we spent an evening waiting for a friend at the airport and yeah, I fell for her.
This part may be hard for you to understand. I'll let you breathe deep, so you can prepare your eye rolls or whatever machinations I imagine go on as you start to twitch behind the keyboard.
My first thought, after falling for her, was not "I want to fuck her"
I did a lot of hand wringing for a long time, eventually it came out how I felt, and it was not meant to be because she just wanted to be friends. I would never use the term....but others did in describing that situation. I felt bad about it. Pretty depressed for awhile. I actually kind of went into a fetal position for a weekend, I think.
Not very manly, I guess. Continue to roll eyes and steam.
But I also saw one of my best girl friends absolutely destroyed by the fact that she had fallen in love with a guy within our circle. And he was simply not interested in her that way. She got "friend zoned". She used the term being a fan of the stupid show, and no one clucked their tongue at her about it either. And I guess I was an awful friend and human being because instead of telling her to "shut the fuck up", "deal", and "get over it" as an enlightened person with a winning personality such as yourself would....I commiserated with her and gave her a shoulder to cry on and talk it over about, as did others having gone thru it. I would do that for any friend....make or female....and not tell them that their gender meant they could or could not have those feelings depending on which they were.
So ya, I can keep on "pretending" I know more than what you know I guess. Maybe someday, when all shred of empathy is drained from my body and I no longer have memories of having to console someone who just had "The Talk" (go Google that, I've never bothered to, I doubt it made it to the widespread lexicon of pop culture) and I resort to hectoring and lecturing people on a message board about what we're going to do as a gender about what some anonymous 14 year old boys on Flicker are saying, I'll "get it". Of course, I'll have to lose my memories of my younger days, and my friends, and our romances to engage in that sort of talk. I'm sorry if my perspective is just a bit more innocent, and yes, less cynical that yours right now.
2. A plot device used in fiction and films, most notably (slang) "chick flicks".
Oh shit, now I've done it.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Aw, how cute. You think you're funny.
Cause lots of women hate the term "chick", right? And there are sure to be some in this thread who find it bothersome, yeah? But but but you only quoted it, so ha ha...
Yeah, again, don't quit your day job. I dunno if you actually think that has some semblance to reality or what, but ...
It's... odd... that you apparently think unrequited love is a 'thing' that only 'your generation' gets, 'maaaaan'. I reckon based on your apparent hints that we are about the same age. Newsflash: Those have been going on, since, um, forever. And no, it isn't 14 year olds whining about never getting 'past' friendship.
So, again, good luck with the whole understanding cultural context thing. (Hint - it isn't just what you and your buddies think, there's actually a whole big world out there, and there is a common usage, and the unrequited love thing - which you somehow find a huge mysterious new thing, LOL - that ain't it. Keep trying though! You know, if you want. I seriously don't care.)
And so, in closing, it is so sadly amusing that you are bouncing between 'its just a joke!!!1!' and 'seriously this is about LOVVVVVEEEE you are so MEEEEEAAAN!' without the slightest hint of awareness...
Also, you need to get your outrage detector recalibrated cause yeah, calmer than you are.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)....you just keep on 'splainin to us, deeeeeaaar.
GaYellowDawg
(4,449 posts)Some things you might want to keep in mind.
First, I think you need to get past the penis when you're conversing with someone. Believe it or not, men can be actual people with actual feelings. When 'friend zone' was brought up, you immediately jumped to the conclusion that this was another 'nice guy' trying to worm his way into someone's pants with fake kindness. Now, there's no doubt that phenomenon exists, but you sure hit that button quickly. The white-hot scorn of this last reply... wow.
For me personally, I miss emotional intimacy a hell of a lot more than I do physical. There's a level of emotional intimacy you get with a partner that you just can't achieve with friends. For me, that's the meaning of 'friend zone.' For a lot of my male friends, the same applies. It's a dated, silly term, but generally, men who talk about the 'friend zone' would like to date someone, not just have sex with her. I miss buying gifts for someone. I miss doing random things to make someone smile. I miss doing random things on her chore list and watching her smile when she realizes she's got extra time that she can spend on something enjoyable. I miss cooking for someone. I miss listening to her, knowing that the listening helps her. None of these have anything to do with sex. They all have to do with caring. I'll do all these things for friends, but it's different with a partner. There's a difference between loving and being loved as a friend, and loving and being loved as a partner. I am blessed with the former. I miss the latter very much.
Being alone can be a serious problem for men. We have much higher stress baselines, live shorter lives, and are far more prone to depression as compared to men who have partners. These aren't random assertions. They are facts borne out by medical studies. People who are lonely merit compassion, not contempt - even men. This is where seabeyond's "you're bitter because you're not good enough for us" theme as versed above becomes problematic, as well.
I can't recall a single time that I've ever seen you say something kind about men. I've never seen anything but vicious, slashing, contemptuous anger from you towards my gender. That observation does come with caveats; a) I'm very willing to admit that I haven't read all of your posts and I could simply have missed something; b) you do make valid points some of the time;
c) you don't represent all women, any more than one Asian person represents all Asian women, so my disagreements with you are personal.
While it's a very valid thing for you to demand understanding, compassion, and action for women as a whole, it's pretty difficult to deal with the incredibly vituperative nature of your dialogue and with you personally. It's difficult to have a frank dialogue with someone who brings a machete to a debate. It parallels the difficulty with modern feminist/postfeminist epistemology; when "masculine" becomes a synonym for "negative" and "feminine" is the synonym for "good," it's not easy to gain a lot of appreciation for that epistemology from men. When I've read it, I've had to ignore the knee-jerk reaction to that set of assumptions and try to parse out a researcher or writer's intent.
I am not telling you that you should be submissive. I'm not telling you that you have to agree with anyone. I am telling you that I think it'd be a good idea for you to try to gain an understanding of what someone is trying to communicate before obliterating it. I also think that it'd be a good idea for you (and seabeyond, for that matter) to treat men as individuals, not as part of a monolithic collective. Just because there are 'nice guys' out there doesn't mean that the man who responded to you is. Just because there are sexists out there doesn't mean that the man who disagrees with you is. Just because there are misogynists out there doesn't mean that the people who argue with you are. When you're not snarling at someone, both you and seabeyond talk of educating others on DU. As an educator, I can tell you something that crosses all racial, socioeconomic, and gender lines: patience and humor work, and insults and anger don't.
Take care.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)to my other interlocutor.
Save your scolding, it is even more rude. I'm not your student.
There is admittedly a vanishingly small percentage of men who aren't entitled fuckheads, who might ignorantly start using this idiotic term. They are making a grave mistake.
Here's the thing. There are lots of lonely people. Men AND women. Notice how women seem to accept such loneliness as simply 'the way it is'. No fairy tales tell little girls that the good girl always gets her boy. No, that's for princesses. Some girls do grow up with an entitled, princess-like attitude. A few. Those with the looks, usually, to be able to maintain that fantasy past adolescence. Contrast that with men, who are fed a diet of 'sloppy, overweight, geeky, goofy, not-terribly-bright guy gets the girl' stories well into adulthood. These are just a couple of the ways men are conditioned to expect such companionship.
Women? We read 'He's Just Not That Into You' and get a cat. And get mocked.
So yeah, life is hard, and while I do have empathy for those who are lonely, I also recognize how much pure hatred is fueled by such loneliness, when it is combined with unchecked entitlement and male privilege... so spare me if, in the context of a thread like this, the very obviously misogynist concept that if a man is nice to a woman, he has any reason to be resentful, let alone hostile, that she doesn't magically develop romantic feelings for him, I get all uppity with those who would push such laughable yet still offensive notions.
p.s. Yes, I do praise men. You have missed it. Avoid assumptions. Also, the tone argument? Not valid. I'm not doing PR.
p.p.s. I'm not usually even so brash as I was in this subthread. I found it amusing that someone would actually try to sell such crap (that's not what it means, no I won't tell you, here is the origin, well my friends say it means x). I mean, seriously.
GaYellowDawg
(4,449 posts)Well, I didn't take that into account. My mistake.
Save your scolding, it is even more rude. I'm not your student.
Of course you're not my student. There's every possibility that I have things to learn from you, which, I suppose, would make me your student. And I don't scold my students. It doesn't do them or me any good. As a teacher, I try to praise personally, and criticize impersonally.
There is admittedly a vanishingly small percentage of men who aren't entitled fuckheads, who might ignorantly start using this idiotic term. They are making a grave mistake.
I can't see how it would be a grave mistake. It just seems a little silly to me, but I'll admit that could be ignorance on my part.
Here's the thing. There are lots of lonely people. Men AND women. Notice how women seem to accept such loneliness as simply 'the way it is'.
Well, that's how I feel.
No fairy tales tell little girls that the good girl always gets her boy. No, that's for princesses. Some girls do grow up with an entitled, princess-like attitude. A few. Those with the looks, usually, to be able to maintain that fantasy past adolescence. Contrast that with men, who are fed a diet of 'sloppy, overweight, geeky, goofy, not-terribly-bright guy gets the girl' stories well into adulthood.
Would you agree that your last point is injurious to men as much as anyone else? And maybe it's an artifact of my generation and location, but I always heard that it was the good girl that got her boy, and not the bad girl. I always thought that the whole "princess" thing cast all women in the role of princess and was, at the least, somewhat disempowering. The difference is, women have learned that the "princess" thing is harmful. Men have not come to see the sloppy, etc. guy gets the girl as disempowering. I commend your gender, at least, for seeing through the fog.
These are just a couple of the ways men are conditioned to expect such companionship.
Oh, I stopped expecting it a long time ago and started expecting singlehood. Most men, when pressed, would admit that, too. You know what, though? It's a scary prospect. And it sucks.
Women? We read 'He's Just Not That Into You' and get a cat. And get mocked.
And men turn to food, get sloppy, do geeky hobbies, or watch football, and get scorned. And I hate the cat thing. I'm allergic.
So yeah, life is hard, and while I do have empathy for those who are lonely, I also recognize how much pure hatred is fueled by such loneliness, when it is combined with unchecked entitlement and male privilege...
I have to tell you, I think the hatred gets fueled by loneliness whether or not entitlement or privilege enter the picture. Of course, the privilege and entitlement certainly throw fuel on the fire. I've been on the other side, too; I've turned relationships down because I just didn't feel that spark that was necessary. I would have thought it unreasonable for them to hate me, so I can't hate the ones who don't feel that spark for me.
so spare me if, in the context of a thread like this, the very obviously misogynist concept that if a man is nice to a woman, he has any reason to be resentful, let alone hostile, that she doesn't magically develop romantic feelings for him, I get all uppity with those who would push such laughable yet still offensive notions.
I can't disagree with that for a second.
p.s. Yes, I do praise men. You have missed it. Avoid assumptions. Also, the tone argument? Not valid. I'm not doing PR.
OK, I did miss it. I was trying to avoid assumptions when I admitted the possibility. Not doing PR? Fair enough. But I've found that I generally tend to win more people over when I try to not go after them. You've been very patient in your reply to me, and you've really well elucidated a vague resentment I've had with respect to how men are set up for expectations. You've made me think, not react.
p.p.s. I'm not usually even so brash as I was in this subthread. I found it amusing that someone would actually try to sell such crap (that's not what it means, no I won't tell you, here is the origin, well my friends say it means x). I mean, seriously.
Well, then, you have my apologies for treating it as a norm.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Your comments about recognizing that men are human beings with feelings seemed scoldish... I know that of course... I have a partner whom I love more than anything and anyone else in the world (that I didn't give birth to), and there are many, many men whom I respect and admire. As far as recognition of women's issues I will cite David Futrelle, PZ Myers, and even Will Wheaton.
There are also plenty of men on DU who don't sit back and say nothing when sexist crap is posted here, and who challenge macho culture BS as well.
And then there are the many, many men out there who do shit like this, brilliantly hijacking MRA propaganda efforts:
http://twitter.com/search?q=%23ineedmasculismbecause
Men who actively challenge the mindset that women are less than are loved by all who loathe the patriarchy. The men and women who still buy into it, of course, mock and ridicule such men. But so what, because fuck them.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)I saw a bunch of - "lonely guys "
What is so funny about loneliness of others?
It's not about any feeling of entitlement either. It's about not getting something that you NEED.
"Contrast that with men, who are fed a diet of 'sloppy, overweight, geeky, goofy, not-terribly-bright guy gets the girl' stories well into adulthood."
Really, now is that a nice line? Does that not kinda ASSUME that all terminally single guys are sloppy (okay guilty) overweight (not guilty) geeky (guilty) goofy (guilty, but what the fuck is wrong with making people laugh by being silly?) not terribly bright (not guilty).
But what the hey. Lonely guys are "whining" and "angry" because they are in pain. Why not just laugh at their pain? It's not like that will give them more pain and more anger. After all, the world is full of hate, pass it on.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)It is simply an observation that stories marketed to men send the message that every man gets a 'girl'.
And nice logic fail, its entitled and misogynist men, not lonely men, who are resentful and hostile that their "niceness" doesn't get rewarded.
Lonely people who feel cheated? That's entitlement. No one is owed a romantic relationship.
Do some reading. Learn what hateful bullshit ideas you are agreeing with. Then again, maybe you know.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Have you ever told a lonely woman friend that? Would you?
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I've met many lonely women. I've been one. Feeling sad about it sometimes is natural. Feeling depressed, even. But cheated? No. Angry because we expected it? No.
If I did meet anyone like that, I sure would.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)I did not.
I said pain. A male is taught to turn pain into anger. What else are we supposed to do with it? Cry?
I think it is far more likely that anyone who is nice will get angry that niceness is not rewarded.
Oh, and name some of these stories marketed to men. Just a few.
How about this one
"First Blood"
"The Terminator"
"Armageddon"
"Independence Day"
lots of guys get killed in those movies, but they do not end with a "happy ever after". Lots of stories are like that, and those - are marketed to men, I am pretty sure.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)It may have been wasted on whom it was directed at, but not a waste period.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)they started with. A quick trip over to Reddit or Google images will show you that "friend zone" basically means "was nice to girl I liked,got nothing for it".
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)I accept the fact society is dumbing down, I don't have to like it or cater to it.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)that nobody would dare mention it seriously, but I do believe your interlocutor actually believes that whole complex of misogynist nonsense. I love this: "Women are not sex vending machines that you drop kindness coins into until sex falls out. Deal."
Perfect!
redqueen
(115,103 posts)but no. This ego-massaging nonsense has its adherents even on DU.
Sirveri
(4,517 posts)Wish I knew that they couldn't do it themselves, would never have worked so hard to get my wife a college education...
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Kind of proves the OP.
obamanut2012
(26,137 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Sounds that way to me!
Sirveri
(4,517 posts)Which is it? The 'good men' have to save the women because they're all damsels in distress just sitting there waiting for a man to come along and save them. Or women are competent enough to protect themselves and run their own lives?
CitizenPatriot
(3,783 posts)it matters what you are. That is all that you can control.
Women would like all men who are willing to listen and hear, and take an active role in helping to change the culture. It's really not hard to understand and there's no reason for you to feel so put upon.
If you don't want to listen and hear, then don't. Just as you can't control women, they can't control you. You have the privilege to not give a crap about it if that's your choice.
There are millions of men who get it and/or try to understand. We celebrate them and appreciate it.
O/T thank you to whoever gave me the heart! >3
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)thank you. very well put. after a couple of the posts, as sorry i am their life sucks, i want to say. dont bother, really.
thank you for making it so simple
CitizenPatriot
(3,783 posts)but want to engage you in an argument about why it's mean of you to ask them to hear you are working something out that I don't have time for So, to each their own. I'm busy working with those who want to overcome obstacles to understanding. No time for being a punching bag/sounding board/devil's advocate
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)but, i was in the middle so i could better understand something that is more important. revelations. peeling the onion. even with this mess there are things to learn. thanks.
i got your posts, lol... see. it helped me to take a step further in understanding.
outta this thread. other things to do.
CitizenPatriot
(3,783 posts)You're right about the onion. Bonus: I always meet other people (like you) that make it worthwhile and teach me something. And I get to see how many women are feeling the same frustration I feel.
I really dislike the bullying of women who are expressing themselves. It's so kneejerk with some folks (not calling out anyone in this thread- I mean this in general), and comes from such a sense of innate privilege that the person often doesn't even realize or probably intend to do it. It breaks my heart watching a woman trying to articulate what is a shared, silent pain and some person comes in to mock her or tell her to buck up -- an attempt to silence her, which only ironically speaks to the truth of what she's saying.
have a great day
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)If so, very sad for you. How about thinking of women as people instead of damsels or or people who owe you something?
Sirveri
(4,517 posts)Which is what I think the OP implies. Hence the damsel in distress. Literary license, call it whatever makes you feel better, it's all the same thing to me. That's the point I was trying to make.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)More opposition from men (and their female cohorts) than help.
But we are speaking to supposedly liberal men here- what in the world makes them want to be punitive and withhold support?
Sadly it looks like personal animus more than anything. The expectation that women should first cater to them or make their discomfort a prime concern. Their support is conditional on us putting men first. And they see no irony in this.
WCLinolVir
(951 posts)I don't expect african americans to patronize me when I stand up to racism. It is uncomfortable sometimes, especially at work, and I know I get some blow back because of it. But if you are standing up for what you believe is right, what is appropriate for our society, then your reward comes from your self esteem. It has to be a fight that you have a stake in a human being. How can that be so hard to get? And if you need a reward system in place to keep you motivated, or resent having to alienate yourself at work, or in social settings, cause women don't/can't fight their own battles, then you really do not have a stake in a different society. And everything else is pretty much lip service. That anyone can see the burden women have had to shoulder in our society and then ask what's in it for me, or complain about the discomfort of dealing with their feelings is narcissistic and borderline infantile.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)my mom there that knew many of the people. i try to be respectful to parents social environment and behave.
the hardest thing i did.
sittin in the audience the auctionaire had a black "caricature" figurine with white lips. k, not a favorite. get it thru and move on. but, he had a black man standing next to him, an assistant. in front of everyone he says... you might want to cover your ears on this one. if he had not been condescending, insensitive to the man, i would have stayed quiet. the man said, it is ok. but, you could see he was totally uncomfortable standing in front of an audience of whites, with a white being so condescending.
i said....
he may not have a problem with it, but i do.
i hated doing it. i hated calling more attention to the pure bigotry of the item with our history. but, i felt i had to stand with the man and not let it go any further.
i was ready for battle. the man backs down and says, we will just put this one away.
horrible feeling, scary. but, .... do we keep our mouth shut?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Which I found encouraging. Most men blame the female... And usually their approach and attitude is there way before we have a chance to influence it.
FightForMichigan
(232 posts)We all need to look out for each other. ALL of us.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)burnsei sensei
(1,820 posts)is to legally enable them to arm themselves and kill their attackers, whether child molestors assailants or rapists.
Enable a woman to avenge legally and yes, she'll fight her own battles.
The problem is that that's a sans-loy solution.
Women are competent enough to protect themselves at least fifteen to twenty years after they reach adulthood.
They, thankfully, become invisible through age.
What Ensler is probably referring to is the worldwide repression, the malicious wounding, neglect and wrongful death of women.
Women systematically raped in the Congo and India, subject to FGM in Africa and Asia, subject to fistulae by brutal sexual practices and disfigured in acid attacks in the Hindu Kush and even in the UK.
The problem is not what men do not do.
It's what they do with their silence.
They are complicit in the brutality that does exist.
They are further so in their refusal to publicly judge the conduct of other men.
Yes, men have truly DONE a great deal to make sure that the world, for women, stays exactly as it is.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Probably because they can't really lecture you about "tone". Well done.
Dash87
(3,220 posts)Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)Adults have to take their own responsibility for a change.
Response to babylonsister (Original post)
Demo_Chris This message was self-deleted by its author.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)I live alone.
Nobody makes love with me.
I have no kids.
And not very many friends of either gender
I have sisters and they know where I am and I support them
my mother knows where I am too, but has not really been a part of my life for about 28 years. Eternally supported? Only if the word 'infinitesimally' is added in the middle.
And who am I supposed to be "standing with"?
How many women are "driven to the point of madness and action"?
And if there is "action" then why is it so often THIS type of action - the action of scolding men, the action of telling men how privileged they are, or how scary they are, or how guilty they are? Am I supposed to be standing beside you now and wagging my finger at other men?
Well, this close to Valentine's Day, what I feel is that I have been rejected by almost all women. I have been told and told and told and told that I am not worthy of their love and affection. That they think they can do better. Usually I am rejected just on sight. They look at the Green Eggs and Ham and decide they won't like it, without even trying it.
And now that they went off and tried to do "better" and they find themselves humiliated and/or abandoned by the men they have chosen, they expect the men they rejected to come rescue them? To stand beside them now? I don't owe them anything. And further, as I look around it seems to me, they don't really need my help anyway, because many of them have done better. They have better jobs and they have spouses and drive nicer cars, while I am still the janitor on a bicycle.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)So far, it's the typical whiney BS.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)why don't we all just suck it up and give and give and give even after years of being spit on, why don't we just keep giving?
and actually, I do give. I gave $1,000 to combat neo-natal tetanus and also to give an award to a woman who had supported my opponent in the recent election.
As for whiney BS. The OP made some claims. It claimed that men are "showered with love" from women.
And I answered that claim.
Your "refutation" such as it is, is nothing but another insult.
But I guess that it just more of the "love and affection" from women. Yeah sure, the more you call me "self centered and whiney" the more motivated I am to "stand beside you".
Maybe solidarity should go both ways. Maybe some men are being "humiliated" too.
But who cares about that? They should just shut up and quit whining. Their problems are not any more important than they are.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Is scaring people off.
Oh look, we've made this all about YOU.
Happy now?
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Very disgusting way to put it.
Is sex a gift from women to be "had"?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)"Protecting us". In case you didn't notice, the poster responded to was resentful for not getting any live from the ladies.
Every man who'd posted thus far has made it about themselves. Were talking about a societal problem and the response is about their personal lives. The ego shown is astounding. And there's an undercurrent of resentment towards all women, solely because they weren't successful with the few they sought out. That's petty bullshit.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:18 AM - Edit history (1)
it appears these women don't want "independence" afterall.
So sad they simply don't grasp the damage they have done to society.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)The poster I responded to had a whole fucking laundry list of things he wanted to get from women. Like its a transaction- hes been keeping count.
He freely admits his failures have embittered him. For this he lashes out at feminists. And yes- it's literally and obviously only because he hasn't gotten what he wanted. Not any of it.
Unfuckingbelievablely entitled bullshit.
Sad excuse for a human being, and not liberal.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)If you are not getting any help from men (the claim of the OP)
It is because your man-hating attitude is turning people off.
What I am "not getting" is
"love and affection"
"love and understanding".
I would say that men and women are "really not that different"
But it never hurts to hear the message "you DESERVE to be rejected".
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)So your anger and resentment prevent you from being a stand up guy. Not really anything to be proud of, but at least your upfront about it. Ick.
WCLinolVir
(951 posts)Life is too short to live with the lies of a society that constantly judges a persons value based on appearances.
Sorry, this is in response to "green eggs and ham".
datasuspect
(26,591 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Sex or affection. And using that as a rationale for having a bitter attitude towards feminists. He reduced it to a quid pro quo situation- and I responded in that context.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Yes.
We're equipped to tell you what we think and do in a way that the person quoted in the OP is not.
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)You bet men are going to push back.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)With anecdotes about dating? How in the world is that a pushback? It's whiney anecdotal nonsense, not worthy of debate.
Waay off topic.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)you know, being controlled and dominated, abused, raped... and yet still, many women get past that to have healthy, grounded relations with men.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Do they forget assholes come in all stripes and colors? That its not okay to be complicit in oppression because of a bad experience or two with part of any "group".
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)you take away their own experiences/voice, then call it whiny BS? Good luck with that strategy.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)how the white knight doesn't come to save a woman's day. That is the ultimate whine and ironic that"feminists" support such a message. But it reinforces though how badly beaten the feminist movement is when they lash out at the easiest target, the passive, empathetic, loving male which is never supported in society or media. Having the feminists piling on is priceless.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)ahead. i see the "white knight" is the new word for a couple of you. really, let that go.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)when you attack the easiest target. Quiet, kind, empathetic passive male. It is a direct attack on why someone choose to live their life this way. I refuse to become a war mongerer male, or a feminist filled with anger.
If you don't like it is your problem.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)all cause they do not like what is being said.
me? not so much. i cant do that. regardless of how jerky some are, i still have to hold true to my integrity. common decency has not gone out the window. it is all around us. many of us live in it 24/7. i couldnt live without it.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)You are kind and empathetic? Um... not really.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)actslikeacarrot
(464 posts)...women wanting to be "white knighted," as them wanting us to be fellow knights. My take on it.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)gollygee
(22,336 posts)OK, as a white person, if I hear another white person make a racist joke, or do something racist, I call them on it! I sit right there and say, "UH, no." I correct them. And if they keep on with the racism, I disassociate from them and let them know why.
But that doesn't exist when men make rape jokes, or sexually degrading comments about women. Are men calling them on it? Are they walking out?
It reminds me of the "you can't stand still on a moving train" thing. If you're going along with it, you're part of that movement.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)When a bunch of big jock studs are sitting in a locker room guffawing at rape jokes, they are not going to stop guffawing just because some nice guy "calls them on it". At least they will not stop guffawing for longer than it takes to give that guy a wedgie.
Then they will leave the locker room to meet with their cheerleader girlfriend while the nice guy sits by himself in the library with his underwear halfway up his butt (whether he calls them on anything or not).
And the beat goes on.
I don't think I have ever heard a "rape joke" in my 50 year life. Other than the constant stream of jokes about how men will be raped in prison.
The men here are not standing up for our right to say and listen to rape jokes or sexually degrading comments about women. We are responding to an OP that claims we get all these benefits and then berates us for our supposed apathy.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)making those jokes. and women repeatedly calling it out until we got enough support from men.
you are welcome.
i have a son who is not football, but sits in those locker rooms and speaks out whether sexist or racist or rw. he does not get wedgies. though sometimes physically challenged, he has learned how to stand tall and use words, also having earned respect thru his own personal action, he has support.
there are girls that look to the guy sittin' in the library wanting a date, but that guy in the library doesnt give her a second look because she is not a cheerleader.
just to mention a few points in your post
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Bill Cosby on the passivity of whites;
I am over the passivity of good whites. Where the hell are you? You're our neighbors, friends, coworkers and brothers and sisters in arms. So why aren't you standing with us? Why aren't you driven to madness and action by our oppression?
Get it? Did you note the complete absence of any recognition of your own good behavior in that regard? Do you agree with Bill's fundamental right to choose the brush with which to paint you? Accepting THAT is passivity.
The men here DO get it. They get the fact that Ms Ensler is factually wrong, and rhetorically counterproductive.
Ms Ensler is entitled to tell me what she thinks. She's not entitled to tell me what I think.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)I don't need to be given a cookie every time someone discusses racism.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)literally. damn straight. we whites need to address it EACH AND EVERYTIME one of our own throw out racist shit, or white privilege.
hell yes....
not hard for me at all lumberjack. as a matter of fact, over the years, i have consistently adn constantly taught this to my boys, nieces and nephews. not to mention speak out about it with all in my life.
hell ya.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)He's poking you in your white chest. He's hoping to shame you into making YOU change YOUR nasty racist ways and attitudes. Not some generalized other, but you.
Claiming that you don't hold the attitudes in question is denial. "Bill" knows better.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)gollygee
(22,336 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)"Passive" would be the kind of guy who meekly accepts that kind of presumptuous slander.
FightForMichigan
(232 posts)On the one hand, you answered your own question. What men is Eve talking about? The passive ones.
What do you think passive means?
Passive means here a man who sees sexism, misogyny or outright violence against women and does ... nothing.
Passive does not mean a man who doesn't adhere to traditional gender roles and isn't stereotypically aggressive.
What did you think she meant?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)The subject of her first sentence isn't "passive men", it's "good men", and she's pissed off at their perceived passivity.
It is presumptuous to redefine what people are saying by rearranging their words on the fly.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)For a personal attack. But many here are confused.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)some white people take racism personally, just as some men take sexism personally, which makes it virtually impossible to critiques the CULTURE.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)The vast majority.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)But the ones that do take it waay to personally. Sadly, they think they're defending their fellow man, LOL.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)While the ones who do are all too willing to speak up as often as possible.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Wasn't nice, wouldn't date or didn't "celebrate them".
I've never read such entitled drivel, even here. I'm so embarrassed for them.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)In past generations, these things were a given.
The same thing has happened when other previously oppressed groups stopped putting up with it. The backlash from this one is of course the nastiest.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)You know that everyone here is for equal rights. Equal pay, reproductive choice all down the line.
But your ego is so big that you want to pretend that our irritation with this tone-deaf, needlessly offensive and flambaiting post is somehow related to the Republican's attempt to take away those rights.
That disgusts me.
Talk about letting your personal agenda trump everything. Blech.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)that is your issue.
some of us interpret rape and humiliation as a "tad" more.
so be your disgusted self.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Are you saying that your typical Dem like here on DU was part of rape and humiliation of women?
You need to check yourself.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)issues and ya, they are indeed part of the problem.
but, like one man said in this thread. this is all pretty easy to understand. really, it is for most people, even men. and the reality is... if you do not want to be part of the solution, fine. dont.
but instead this thread is full of derailing, gaslighting the issue.
personally... i want NOTHING from anyone who does not simply get it. i ask NOTHING from you. not a little bit. nothing. dont need you... you, as in those that would prefer to derail then solve the issue.
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)started the true backlash
was every one on board in the earlier days? no. but, they had little voice because men all over the spectrum was progressing forward.
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)I'm 65, all the things going on now, were going on then. The only difference is that the world shrank and we are even more aware of it.
The men today are the products of parents who raised them in the 70s and 80s...So how much change has there been?
While you and I raised our sons to be the type of men we most admire and respect, there were obviously many who weren't raised that way.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)roles being changed, expectations shifted.
the single voice now able to connect with a lot of single voices to feed the anger.
the economy.
the family structure.
masculinity itself has changed.
and without the tools, the hate.
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)were always there, lying dormant perhaps. but there nonetheless. You are talking about the superficials of modern communication which enable the sharing of negative feelings. Had there been no fertile soil upon which the seeds of animosity could grow, there would not be this polarization...of everything.
I am not saying that there are no men 'who get it' but I think perhaps there are an equal number of women who don't get it either...where else did those men, who seem clueless and callous and for whom the definition of masculinity has not changed, come from?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)when men firmly had the control, power, privilege, entitlement, dominance of women, they lived in a safe world. now, not so much.
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)we simply disagree as to the starting date. You think it began in the 90s, I think it began way before...with birth control and Roe v Wade.
Why else did the ERA fail?
Dash87
(3,220 posts)as in, "men who aren't speaking out should." Hardly a big deal, imo. Not an attack on all men.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)... to mean all men. And God help you as a male if you even suggest that it doesn't apply to you.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)otherwise.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Sadly, she didn't provide any caveats or qualifiers.
In my experience, she's talking about "rape culture" which doesn't give any male a pass.
Since the "rape culture" of 2014 has produced a victimization rate 85% lower than 1980, maybe we should look at whatever it is that we're doing right.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)The words, "some" "many" "occasionally" or "often" don't occur in the OP.
Everything in the OP indicates that her frustration is directed at all "good men" for not preventing the behavior of bad ones.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)men were the ones saying ALL men.
that is fact. that is what i addressed.
i said nothing towards what you are addressing
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)221. That was the intent of the quote in the OP. However, some on this thread are taking it all the way..
... to mean all men. And God help you as a male if you even suggest that it doesn't apply to you.
teh ONLY people on this thread that are taking this to mean ALL men are MEN that are taking it to mean ALL men as the rest of us tell SOME men that it is not talking about ALL men.
THAT is what i was addressing. but, knowing that you are a clever man i betcha you got that the first and second time i said this. adn now the third time... are we done yet?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)What you're saying is what you are saying. What the OP is saying is something different - something I disagree with.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)She's absolutely not broadbrushing all men, is specifically asking the silent "allies" why the hell they're not vocal. And it's a valid question. We have a lot of sad answers right here.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Failing that, I tend to accept that what people say is what they mean.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)It couldn't be much clearer.
Could it?
Hosnon
(7,800 posts)been if the quote had just said "some".
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)with women. This ALWAYS happens.
Pathetic. OT anecdotal
nonsense.
joeunderdog
(2,563 posts)I feel like I'm at a Kostanza reunion.
FightForMichigan
(232 posts)I am over the passivity of good whites. Where the hell are you? You're our neighbors, friends, coworkers and brothers and sisters in arms. So why aren't you standing with us? Why aren't you driven to madness and action by our oppression?
You did not do what you think you did.
If Cosby (or anyone) were to say this, they'd be right. I am a white person and I take absolutely no offense to that.
I'm assuming you do, from what you said.
Why?
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)They are saying that despite the offensive nature of the "passive white" comments, no white person would ever allow this to show.
I guess we hang them with a big fail, too.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Don't tell me you are, because that's denial and "Bill" knows better.
(This presupposes that you qualify for the subdomain of "good whites", a categorization that Bill and his unofficial spokespeople reserve the right to change without notice.)
If she had talked about what she thought, experienced and felt, and asked the community for help bringing criminals to justice, I'm all ears.
But she's not. Like other "rape culture" rhetoric, she's interested in spreading the blame for criminal behavior as widely as possible;
a) because collective blame feels powerful
b) because of the mistaken belief that bad people act only under the perceived direction of good people
She's irrelevant. While she and people like her are rending their garments and gnashing their teeth, the rest of us have diligently created a society in which rape is 85% less common than it was in 1980.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Well said.
The offense built into the OP cannot be underestimated.
FightForMichigan
(232 posts)Don't presume to speak for everyone, becuase not everyone sees it that way.
The OP specifically mentioned "passive men."
Do you see yourself as passive?
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)EVERY post I make states my opinion and my opinion only.
If you disagree with my opinion, simply state it.
As for the OP, the title says, "passivity of men". Ensler's quote says the "passivity of good men." In both cases, "all" is implied. I don't care about the title of this thread; I dismiss it of to sloppy writing. But Ensler? No. She said what she meant, and it was constructed carefully. If she did not mean "all good men" then she certainly meant to send shock waves. Either way...
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)Hosnon
(7,800 posts)Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)I have never made a joke about rape, and I have never heard a friend or colleague joke about it.
I I heard such a thing, I would be disgusted and quite vocal.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)This happens here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/125512916#post1
This happens in Steubenville for sure.
This happens in movies. There is some moving from the 80s that shows a line of men waiting outside a bedroom at a party to take part in a gang rape. It's all a big joke. (Someone remind me what movie - Sixteen Candles?) That's the one that comes to mind but it's part of our popular culture and people don't raise an eyebrow at it.
This happens in this world. If you don't do it, then don't take it personally, or expect a cookie for not doing it. Just move on.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Dear Eve --
This is part of the problem.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)that they personally don't do it, therefore we can dismiss the whole issue, as discussing it offends them. And in some cases that they're nice guys and deserve some kind of recognition for all the good they do. A cookie.
But not even an acknowledgement that sexual harassment, an attitude of entitlement of women's sexuality and attention, and jokes about rape and sexual degradation of women are a real part of our culture, and wouldn't be if men didn't say something in locker rooms and board rooms, and wherever else it happens.
Just, "You should keep better company." As if I were talking about my husband, and not society at large. You knew I wasn't talking about specific men in my life, so that was flippant and dismissive.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)do inappropriate things over the years. Not friends or close associates. Do you not ever socialize outside your core group? You've never ever met a sexist jerk? Seriously?
And there are micro cultures out there where all kinds of nasty shit is tolerated by otherwise decent people. Many have an aversion to speaking up- apparently including the "liberal" men here who request all women be nice and reward them or else they'll look the other way.
If any woman dares to be ungrateful for an opened door or is superficial and dates an apha, it's a valid reason to let the rest of us be "on our own" and be treated like shit. We hear this crap on DU all the time. Bitter selfish rationalizations. "I'd support feminists but..."
Fuck that.
Not giving you a cookie for being a decent human being. Get over yourself.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Yes, I hear inappropriate things. I do not make it my business to throw myself in front of every moron who ever says something stupid. I'd have little time for anything else.
However, in a setting where I have even a passing acquaintance with someone who speaks such things, I will be very, very vocal. Everyone I consider a friend is exactly like that. So, I don't consider my attitudes to be special.
That's where you stopped being decent. Let's go to the next paragraph.
========================
Okay. Gloves off? No thanks. But let's go all the way back to the top of the thread. Think about it. Every male on this thread who has said, "I speak up" is told to fuck off because there are bad guys out there. If you and I were in the same room right now, I would serve up the same kind of shit storm I give to sexist pricks -- male sexists pricks. Sexist, insensitive people come in two genders, and you would have it coming.
Now, go on and get all self righteous again. Be a stereotype.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I feel more correct than ever suggesting you get over yourself. And perhaps retread the thread when you've cooled off.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)I always feel disappointed when I'm wrong.
The problem with a very few (gratefully) angry feminists at DU is that they go looking for problems wherever they can find them. Even where problems do not exist. And, if they piss someone off -- particularly a male -- they break into their best Snoopy happy dance. It has nothing to do with being angry or a feminist; it's simply a character flaw.
It must be some sort of fantastic to be so easily amused, but it must be awkward to be so lacking in self awareness.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)What problems do you feel we are upset about that don't even exist?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)problem and we women are just creating a "fantasy".
sound more like we are being told we are suppose to not waste our time on it either, ... why? cause he does not want to bother.
such contradictions.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I'm guessing he wants a cookie for hypothetically not tolerating rape jokes (if he should ever hear one), but letting all other sexism fly.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)so, not all warm and cozy with that one either.
we have finally gotten men on board that prison rape jokes are not ok. but then, that is men being raped, where is the funny. but, raping women.... sure.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Reading all these complaints from men about women here not being sweet enough for them is hilarious. You spend too much time licking imaginary wounds. So sad!
Poor guys really wanted their cookies, eh?
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Thanks for being unintentionally transparent.
You can have the last word. That should make you happy.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Special treatment from African Americans- and threaten to withdraw support if some were uppity or wouldn't celebrate you. You wouldn't dare try to shut down discussion with claims of slights from random African Americans.
But it's EXACTLY what some men are doing in this thread- and pathetic is the only way to describe it.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)But thank you.
Saying no cookie is ripping someone a new asshole? Please.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)So yeah, not getting the expected praise and fawning for having the slightest clue can be rather disconcerting for some, I suppose. More than a bit, in some cases.
Others have actually been paying attention though. And thank goodness.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)No man requires your coddling.
If you have chosen to "coddle", it is likely a form of manipulation for your own self-interest.
It is also likely that men have allowed you to feel that you are coddling them rather than ask you to stop.
Are you really completely unaware of how sexist it is?
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)is too intoxicating to try something else. Oh well, there are a lot of "good women" on DU.
Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #90)
Post removed
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Some. As in an undetermined number, but examples are out there.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Thanks for sharing your views.
Fortunately, not everyone shares your inability to grasp the concepts you seem to be having so much trouble understanding.
WCLinolVir
(951 posts)You can not be believed if you actually think that sexism, having to cope with sexism, is about matching energy, or wading in the wrong social milieu. Or even having the wrong job. I have worked in several different environments, the medical field included and see the same level of abuse irrespective of the environment. Getting angry at angry feminists who don't need to look for problems, FYI, because all we have to do is acknowledge what stares us in the face on a daily basis, is classic denial. Talk about lacking in self awareness. I doubt highly that are "disappointed when you are wrong", it seems to be a validation of your innate narcissism.
Did anyone piss you off? I have a feeling you have a whole boatload of passive-aggressive. Feel free to dance in your own way.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)little time for anything else.
well, thanks. at least you are one of the first to acknowledge this shit is so prevalent, if you bothered, you would be speaking out all the fuckin time.
so maybe we can quit pretending it does not happen. that would be the first step, even without men calling it out.
i on the other hand would speak out against racist shit or homophobic shit every single fuckin time. you know, make the time.
oh wait, we as a society have already dont that. and what would the results be? we do not hear the shit all the fuckin time. it mattered, as a society, speaking out to the shit.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:48 AM - Edit history (1)
Let me see if I can capture the mood of the morning: It sure as shit wasn't fucking me. I don't fucking see how any other fuckers on this fucking thread said that shit.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I'm scanning my memory for any exceptions, but I can tell you I haven't heard a rape joke or anything like it in years. Foremost, I'm fortunate to be in a pretty liberal part of the country. I work in a buttoned-down environment where anyone telling such a joke would be walked out the door in short order. I have a wife and 3 kids (1 adult, 1 almost an adult, one in middle school), and they sure as hell don't tell jokes like that. I don't keep bigots around on Facebook--I hide or unfriend them, usually when they make some egregious right-wing statement. I assume this also filters out any potential rape jokes from that crowd. Work/Home, colleagues/family--I'm just not exposed.
And before you ask, yes, I'm posting about me--others in this thread have leveled the accusation that the men in this thread are trying to make it about themselves, personally. No bones about it, that's what I'm doing, and I'm doing so in order to answer a charge that is not correct.
And finally, if I ever do hear anyone telling jokes like this, I'll say something, I'll leave, I'll do whatever the situation calls for, but I won't stand there and laugh, because this crap isn't funny.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Like we can't notice something in our culture if any man at all doesn't participate?
How many men knew about the rapes in Steubenville but just went along with it? And this stuff happens at colleges and schools across the country, and the world for that matter.
How many workplaces do men make comments about the women who work there, while other men sit back and laugh about it. The stuff "not fit for mixed company."
It's out there enough for us to comment on it. We don't have to shut up because you personally aren't a part of it.
raccoon
(31,119 posts)the whites did the blacks a FAVOR for bringing them to the US and enslaving them.
I brought up some points such as, slaves could be whipped with a bullwhip, have their families sold away, their female relatives raped by slaveowners, and pinned him down with would be like to be a slave.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)At least someone on this thread finally gets it.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I was at college. I scared the guy off.
I'm sure most men would do the same given the opportunity.
I don't have any idea where the women on this thread get the idea that men don't protect women as much as they can. I think it is what men do by and large due to socialization.
When I pointed it out, the crazed response I get is that "men only do it because they think of women as possessions".
Am I nuts or is this just no way to win with some people?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)was ignored by you.
thank you for standing up and stopping a man raping a woman.
i was at a bar with a guy and gal. saw a man beating on a woman and i went after it. the male didnt want to get involved. i understood why. me? not gonna keep my mouth shut. i figured a crowd and me all in his face yelling would put a stop.
these are human issues i would hope we would all be aware of.
but, you are missing the point of mens role.
lots of men speak out to buddies. and lots of men dont. not cause they do not agree with women, but because they are unaware of the power they have and ways they can do their part.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Take personally critcism about the racism in this country and try to make it about me and DENY it happens or minimize and dismiss other people concerns.
I don't ask anybody for extra credit for screwing up my career for doing so. Doing the right thing is its own reward. I don't need every single African American to befriend or celebrate me for this. But the men here want to be admired and celebrated and loved by random women who have no obligation to do so.
Why would they even expect this? Do they have the slightest clue how unreasonable that is? That is crazed.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)You ask why men here are taking offense at being told they are passive on the issue.
No one said rape does not occur. No one is asking for credit.
I personally told you that I try and have always tried my best to protect and NOT be passive about it. Your reply was that I only do it out of a sense of selfish ownership.
If you do not reflect on your own rhetoric, you will never see why you are getting the reactions you are getting.
This OP STARTS by pointing the finger. How on Earth can you be surprised that people are a) Answering that they are NOT passive (to which you do not listen) and B) Being defensive and making it about them (when the OP MAKES it about them).
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Rape jokes, as some seem to think.
It's great that you do what you can, sincerely it is... But many men let all sorts of crap fly, at best a cringe and a shake of the head is what happens.
It's not you, great!! But WTF is with the derailing, denying and constant complaints about random women not being nice enough? Do you not notice men here threatening to throw women to the wolves, so to speak, because they weren't appreciative enough? Do you think that's admirable? or that this *hurt feelings* crap has any place in this discussion?
Like it or not, we've seen and experienced these things, and are trying to discuss them. Saying its "not me" adds nothing. The expression of random resentment towards women here might explain quite a bit why misogyny still thrives.
So many men have expressed here how their support is conditional on how well random women behave towards them.... It's horrid selfish bullshit. Not liberal, not progressive, just profoundly sad.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I think that you are responsible for your behavior.
In this OP, as many others, I think you are abrasive and rude and get back what you throw at people.
I think it is hard to talk with you or have meaningful communication when you do the above.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Naaaaaah.
Response to bettyellen (Reply #128)
Post removed
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)if black issue, none of us had a fuckin problem. because we do NOT take it personally. because we see it as a societal issue to address. cause many of us refuse to be part of the problem.
raccoon
(31,119 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Setting aside the value of "being driven to madness" about the topic, there has been action.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)and rape rates have gone down along with them, but it isn't like rape rates are going down while other crime rates are staying the same. This isn't some victory against rape - it's a general crime trend.
Do you know what "adjusted victimizaton rate means? That term puzzles me.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)rape, not filing rape, or otherwise manipulating the numbers to show a decrease are the issues ignored.
it is another technique dismissing womens concerns with rape.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Or that the trend is influenced by data collection changes?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)pulling it from source after source across the nation to have it ignored and dismissed.
google
police force across the nation downgrading rape claims, not reporting accurate rape numbers.
across the nation.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)The definition of "rape" is consistent from 1970 to the present. This year, the FBI is going to broaden the definition of rape so that it encompasses, among other things, sexual assault against males.
The fact that the definition was too restrictive has no relevance to the fact that it was roughly 5x more frequent when we were young.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Or if you did, you used a highly dubious source a grand total of one time, maybe in 2007 or so... then backpedaled when confronted about who exactly that source is... yet, you continue to claim that this assertion is "documented"--- and ever since then, when challenged on your assertion of a broad-based conspiracy by Law Enforcement to cover up or otherwise manipulate rape numbers, you have said "I have showed the documentation".
Saying you've showed it, is not the same as actually showing it.
So, where specifically are you getting this documentation? Let's see the link. Let's see exactly who you're getting this "evidence" from.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)nation on police forces that downgrade and manipulated rape numbers. no more, no less. and easily validated. but... after yours and others fits over a fabricated issue i went on the net and pulled the same damn articles individually and many more.
and no, i am not pulling them again because you and lumber really dont give a shit, just like to derail at every turn to dismiss rape issues.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)and you're not getting this from "articles across the nation". In fact, I suspect you and I both know exactly where you're getting this "theory", and the individual in question who has promoted it.
Which is why you don't want to provide links. Because this assertion is coming from one source and one source only- namely, from a religious right culture war crusader who has a history of horribly homophobic bigotry.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/blog/bal-city-rape-statistics-archive,0,7495701.special
http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-06-08/news/nypd-tapes-3-detective-comes-forward-downgrading-rape/
http://www.nola.com/news/index.ssf/2009/07/nopd_downgrading_of_rape_repor.html
http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/crime/
http://www.womenslawproject.org/NewPages/wkVAW_SexualAssault.html
http://policeforum.org/library/critical-issues-in-policing-series/SexualAssaulttext_web.pdf
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/01/more_rapes_being_reported_in_c.html
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2013/jan/26/weekend-wrap-attempted-rape-charges-downgraded-thr/
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZHAfpoCO5yMC&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=downgrading+rape+police+force&source=bl&ots=A-
N7tgLEvf&sig=VmNo1k7Li2fDnsByIuSqHgqnqqM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GrcZUa7kNsjm2gX924H4Bg&ved=0CFMQ6AEwBzgU#v=onepage&q=downgrading%20rape%20police%20force&f=false
http://www.registerguard.com/web/news/cityregion/29215003-41/sexual-victims-ashland-assault-department.html.csp
http://jezebel.com/5960611/sexting-police-chief-finally-forced-to-half+apologize-for-burying-report-of-brutal-rape
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/01/17/washington-police-accused-of-disturbing-failures-to-investigate-rape/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/rape-figures-distorted-as-cases-wiped-from-record-7447285.html
http://www.columbiaspectator.com/2011/04/14/sexual-violence-on-campus-rape-victims-feel-pressure-not-tell
http://community.feministing.com/2011/10/04/defining-rape-is-more-than-just-semantics/
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)That, right there, destroys any notion that somehow there has been a deliberate manipulation of the numbers from the peak in the early 90s, to now, where there has been an approx. 30% decline. Yes, the definition was recently changed for the better (2011) and most agree the change was overdue- but the net decline from 1992-2010 reflects a consistent, if old, definition. So the definition or changes thereof are irrelevant to the "theory" that somehow the reduction seen since 1992 is somehow the result of manipulation. The defintion, albeit outdated, remained consistent over that time period.
That rape has not been sufficiently prosecuted, and prosecutors and/or police have been culpable in that process (see Steubenville) is certainly, unarguably true. That is NOT the same thing as suggesting that there has been deliberate manipulation of the numbers in the past 20 years to artificially document a decline in the crime that has not taken place.
It was under-reported previously, and -a good thing- that's now changing. But the fact is, like other violent crimes, rape is down. This, too, is a good thing. Not sure what specific narrative depends so deeply on this one salient fact not being true. Perhaps you can elaborate on that.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)· Police departments across the country, notably Baltimore and Philadelphia, have been found to be juking the statscoding legitimate rape cases as unfounded in order to make it appear that rape numbers have declined.
you are a trip... really. there is a reason i totally ignore you.
you did exactly what i said would happen and why i do not bother replying or posting links.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)That what is a statistical decrease which parallels the well-established decrease in violent crimes across the board, is actually an increase, which means that whatever underreporting or under-prosecuting of rape crime which took place in '92 (personally, i suspect there used to be more of it, not less) has increased enough to not only keep the numbers steady, but to make them look like they go down when in actuality, unlike all other forms of violent crime, they've gone up.
Just so we're clear.
You're describing a statistical, broad-based conspiracy that would have to include a helluva lot more law enforcement than just the police departments of a couple East Coast cities like Baltimore and Philadelphia. As well as the FBI itself.
We agree on one point, I suspect, and that is that even one rape is too many, and they should all be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. And when local officials, like the mother of one of the Steubenville accused who happens to be the local prosecutor, is alleged to downplay the crime or encourage the victim not to press charges, that official should be prosecuted as well.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)that occurred in 1993. Data from before that date are adjusted to make them comparable with data since that date. The data since 1993 are from a very large annual national survey of the public, in which people are asked directly about their victimization experiences. Thus, information is picked up about offenses that had gone unreported to the police.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)In other words, rape rates have declined even more precipitously than those numbers show.
Edited to add: Definitely, one is still too many. Still, the trend is in a positive direction, and runs contrary to the narratives that posit some broad cultural encouragement of rape that is getting worse. It's not.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)This isn't a victory specifically against rape, it's a general crime trend.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)which I suspect is tied to several factors, including the general aging of the population.
And it bears repeating, of course, that even one rape is one too many.
But for people who consistently wish to link the incidence of rape to other unrelated cultural phenomena, without evidentiary basis- like, say, the frequency of the use of the word "shit" on basic cable- this decline is extremely inconvenient to the narrative.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)Here is a graph I compiled from data published by the Mn Dept of Corrections on sex offense recidivism:
The X axis is year of release, and the Y axis is % with new charges. The decline is dramatic, and it's not just in US data. It's worldwide.
burnsei sensei
(1,820 posts)Who, what, when, where and why?
This table tells me absolutely nothing as presented.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/sckfg.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_United_States#Rate_of_victimization
From the last link;
According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, the adjusted per-capita victimization rate of rape has declined from about 2.4 per 1000 people (age 12 and above) in 1980 (that is, 2.4 persons from each 1000 people 12 and older were raped during that year) to about 0.4 per 1000 people, a decline of about 85%.
Lurker Deluxe
(1,038 posts)I was raised by parents born in the early 30's and was conditioned by my father that it is my responsibility to protect women and children from anything that I can. See a woman or child in a situation that puts them in danger it is your responsibility as a man to do something about it. If you raise your hand to a woman or a child in my presence I will step in to that situation, count on it. You will not hit them, won't happen.
Is that my responsibility? I was taught it was.
Does that mean I would want the woman in my life to be submissive to me? Absolutely not. I want an equal, someone who is just as smart (or smarter) than I, someone who has the same goals as I do, someone who challenges me and makes me a better man. The same way I would challenge them to be a better woman. Remove the gender and it is simply someone who tries to make the other a better person.
In todays life that is a difficult task. I have had women actually tell me I was sexist because I think this way. I have been told that because I think women need to be protected I am a cave man. I do not think you "need" to be protected, I think that if for reasons beyond your control you get into trouble it is my responsibility to assist in whatever way I can. If that means changing a flat tire in a parking lot/side of the road ... or helping someone out of an abusive relationship, I will do what I can.
Today, attempting to help someone you do not know in a parking lot/side of the road will get the police called. Trying to help someone in an abusive relationship will cause you more grief than the rewards for sure. I've been called "captain save a ho" by women who are two steps away from being turned into property.
The true love of my life left me simply because I did not make enough money, or that I was "blue collar", or whatever she actually said ... do not remember the actual wording, something about a "career". Whatever. It has nothing to do with anything other than status. It was about money. It is certainly my responsibility to provide to the best of my ability, provide security, provide stability, provide financially. Does that mean I have to compete with others for you? Seems to be that way alot of the time. Half the time when meeting a potential mate one of the very few queries is financial.
I will admit this much, a metro-sexual I am not. You will not catch me worrying about my shoes, or if I should wear that coat because of it's color ... my hair is cut in the basic crew because it is easy to maintain and my clothes are cotton because they are easy to wash. I am not going to change who I am or how I dress to court a woman, it seems that basic honesty is not a quality that is valued today. In a mixing pot of singles, the flashy guy with the caddy and $300 shoes gets the girl .. even though he expects a bj in the parking lot that night.
So he buys her six shots of whatever, she leaves with him, he goes to far, and she comes back three hours later crying and now what? I am supposed to go kick his ass? You want me to stand up to him and confront him because he is a rapist? Did you ask for that? No. But at the same time me and two friends were there, shooting pool and having a couple beers, and we tried to tell you that guy was a dick. But hey ... he's driving a 70K car and he has nice shoes. His wingman distracted your friends and he isolated you and played the game for the express purpose of fucking you. Somehow now that is my problem?
Maybe it did not quite go that way, and it ends up you are in a relationship with this jackass. Next thing you know you are moving in with some guy you have known for 20 days. When you met you had a job, now you do not need one because you just do not need the money. So you take some part time gig, or just stay at home. Then your car breaks down, but you don't really need one because he takes you where you need to go. You get told you are being put into a situation where that man is about to have total control over you ... told that again and again. Then you are isolated from your friends and family. Then the abuse starts. Now I am supposed to do something about it?
The basic instinct of protecting women has been beaten out of men. The "good man" that you ask of watches silently as this goes on and shakes his head. The "good man" wonders what the hell he is doing wrong, why does it always seem to work like this? Maybe he should get some new shoes. There are lots of men out there who are solid, hard working, honest and do not condone the "rape culture".
You want to know where they are? You want to know why they aren't "driven to the point of madness with the action of rape and humiliation" of women? They have been driven to the point of madness with the culture that surrounds them in all aspects of everyday life.
You want them to speak up?
Then you must celebrate them. Men must be acknowledged for being good men, must be recognized for doing good deeds, must be appreciated for being loyal and honest ...
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)You're already a jackass.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Why did you automatically think the worst of him?
Lurker Deluxe
(1,038 posts)I am already a jackass.
And I will coontinue to stand on the sideline and watch ....
Let me know when you want to know what a real man looks like.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Really? A friend of yours gets raped, and "you should have known better, we tried to toll you he's a 'dick.'" Why not comfort her, and call the police for her? But no, it's a "I told you so" and "that's what you get for being attracted to someone other than me."
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Lurker Deluxe
(1,038 posts)"lot of tells"
Please, tell me what those are?
You are not supposed to be empathetic to me, I do not give a rat's ass what you think of me. For that matter, I don't care much about what anyone thinks of me. I am who I am.
What I was saying is simple.
Society puts up the bad boy image, and that seems to be what the women fawn over. You want men to change their attitude?
They watch 2 and a half men which is a show about nothing more than some self centered jackass trying to get into womens pants. And that show was loosely based on Charlie Sheen's real life ... and he's a celebrity.
The list of shit like this that is on TV, in the movies, and music is endless, ... I could spend a week here laying it out.
You want men to change their attitude, then you must change the men you put on pedestals. You put the bad boy up image up there and idolize it and men will copy that.
I'm not talking about me, I am talking about society as a whole. But the women in this thread are so eager to tear some man down they are reading through something simply looking for the bad in it.
So ... let me know what those "tells" are.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)this would be the first, in this post. yes... we like to give this to women. and no, most women are not into this supposed bad boy. most of us are healthy and grounded enough we look for nice, respect, healthy men. but.... lets not let that old "bad boy" thing go cause what would the "nice boys" have as an excuse for not getting the "hot" girl.
2 and half men is almost an exclusively male audience. and it is solely made for men. that tells you something. (another tell)
the men have control over media and what we watch. they program for the 19 yr old boy. that would be the less than ten boy, you know, a 5, getting the hot 10. always. just cause. feeding the image to men that they deserve. giving the boys what they want to see. this is not for/about women. and it is not women feeding this to men.
i put no one, let alone men on a pedestal. that simple. i have had only respectful good men in my life. it is my expectation. it is what i get/receive. that is why i am able to stand for the good of who a man is, so easily. it is all i have ever seen.
Lurker Deluxe
(1,038 posts)"this would be the first, in this post. yes... we like to give this to women"
I have absolutely no idea what that says. No idea.
"and no, most women are not into this supposed bad boy"
Don't spend to much time in the singles scene I take it.
"most of us are healthy and grounded enough we look for nice, respect, healthy men"
Most. I would agree, just as most men are good men.
"but.... lets not let that old "bad boy" thing go cause what would the "nice boys" have as an excuse for not getting the "hot" girl"
It is pretty much a given in the rest of this that there is no discussion to be had here. There is nothing that can be said that will not be twisted. So, me saying that two and a half men is trash is a tell? Please elaborate on what that tell is?
"i put no one, let alone men on a pedestal"
Again, this post is not about you. This post was a comment on society as a whole.
"that is why i am able to stand for the good of who a man is, so easily. it is all i have ever seen"
If all you have ever seen are good men, what seems to be the problem?
Lurker Deluxe
(1,038 posts)Not a friend of mine ... that was just a generalization of what happens every single night in the bar scene.
I'm not out chasing girls around, way to old for that and it's just not my thing. Some of the friends I am shooting pool with (pool league) are women and being that we are in the same bars week in and week out everyone knows who "those guys" are. You see a group of women come in and just watch it unfold, happens nightly, and no matter what you say, or who says it ...
I do not understand this entire mindset in this thread, there is no response by a man in this thread that has not been ripped to shreads.
Sit down and shut up ... but why don't you stand up? What did you say ... you pig.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Call the police and tell them there are serial rapists at this bar if you know who they are.
The reason the responses are being ripped to shreds is because they're dismissive. I know there are TONS of supportive men at DU, but they aren't responding. I saw that at least one did somewhere in this thread. But it is mostly men who dismiss the whole idea that there's a problem at all, or are upset that anyone would bring it up.
Lurker Deluxe
(1,038 posts)Call the police and say what?
See that guy over there? He is trying every trick he knows to get into that womans pants.
If the woman does not press charges, and she is not going to, then there is nothing anyone else can do about it. This goes on all across the nation every single night, and it happens more than anyone can even imagine.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Edited to add: If you tell the police that a man is trying to "get into a woman's pants" the police will probably assume that the man is trying to pick a girl up for consensual sex. If it isn't consensual, say that specifically.
Are these rapes? You indicated that these are rapes, where the women come back in the bar crying because they were raped. What you would say is, "There is a man at the bar who is there stalking women to rape." They can send an undercover cop and nab him. Rape is illegal. And the fact that it happens all across the nation every single night is the freaking point of this whole thread! My god you know it happens all the time and yet you don't get the point of this thread. That amazes me.
Lurker Deluxe
(1,038 posts)There is little point in discussing this with you.
Yes, getting a women intoxicated to the point that she loses her ability to say no is rape.
I get the point of this thread, and I was merely suggesting an opinion on why some men are silent about it. Or why some men do not see it.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)choices, i.e., not "good guys" like you.
So if you had more luck with women, like the "bad guys" then you'd actually support us. Great! We'll all be over your place ready to love you later. LOL.
Lurker Deluxe
(1,038 posts)You think that I have no luck woth women and that I do not support them?
Glad you know so much about me.
This post WAS NOT ABOUT ME, FFS!
You just go your way and I will go mine.
K?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Now that their shitty entitled attitudes were trampled on? That your posts had nothing to do with your own attitudes and experiences? THAT is what is fucking hilarious.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)Pick your battles. Men have lost the gender/sexuality debate for the foreseeable future. I am a Domestic Relations attorney, and I can assure you that men proceed from a far weaker position in these kinds of disputes. Just give up ... seriously. Try to accept your fate with grace and dignity.
You will get nowhere trying to defend yourself here.
-Laelth
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)sexist garbage. Entirely predictable here on DU,unfortunately.
obamanut2012
(26,137 posts)still_one
(92,394 posts)The elected officials in the south are sexist pigs, and many women in those states still vote for them
I will also say some of those elected officials are women themselves
So perhaps it should not be directed at only men?
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)Response to MellowDem (Reply #114)
seabeyond This message was self-deleted by its author.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)MellowDem
(5,018 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)Many comments posted here about most rapes (or 'date' rapes) proves it.
And as for humiliation, many men and women too would simply argue whether it even exists.
It is incredibly depressing.
Now let's see.. so far we have:
-If you just took a nicer tone I'm sure more people would listen
-Anyway, I've never seen that.
-I would never do that!
-You just haven't met the right man. (You're just hanging around the wrong men.)
-See, you're sexist too!
-If you really wanted change you would be trying to educate people, not attack them.
Yep. Depressing.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)"Don't be passive, good men....now shut the fuck up and reflect."
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)That says it all IMO.
If you say that you do protect women, you are accused of doing it for possessiveness.
If you say the OP should not start with an accusation, you are called "whiny".
If you say women should protect themselves, you are a misogynist.
There is simply no way to win here OTHER than being passive, ironically, and saying "Yes, yes, yes".
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Classic trap thread. I admit, I fall for it.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)That minority also goes out of it's way to alienate other feminists who don't match up to their purified standards.
Still, it makes DU suck.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)and attacks on the feminists on du?
my youngest is sweetiepie. my oldest sugarplum. and both my babies. at 15 and 17 they still expect me to use those endearments towards them. i have never heard a single feminist have an issue with a parent calling their children "babies". yet, you start a thread attacking feminists on this board because one woman, one women that has never agreed with a person, feminist or otherwise, on a single issue on du.... one woman called you out using that term.
and you all have a thread attacking the feminists on du. how bad we are.
that kinda of allies.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Nor do I link her to your group OR your movement.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)but, it is cool. i dont care. simply sharing the wrong here, now. in the projection of ally.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)One poster did, maybe two.
But I didn't see you jump in and say anything in my defense either.
Was that passivity in the face of an attack?
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)He did not start a thread attacking feminists on DU.
You should really apologize for that. The poster who did it and the general attitude needed a call out, but he did not call them feminist or tie them to that....just pointed out shit that men have to deal with.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)oh well I am enjoying the mental gymnastics that some are attempting to try to support their paradoxical claims. As if as a passive male I can turn on a switch and become superman is hysterical.
Yes it does mar the feminist movement sadly with their antics.
Response to babylonsister (Original post)
Demo_Chris This message was self-deleted by its author.
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)for the average male.
As eloquently demonstrated, women no longer require men for money or protection, and sexual attention is freely transferred if as a male you can detach from the idea of romantic love and embrace opportunistic mating strategies.
Fertility rates are at their lowest ever not because women are choosing it, in fact the opposite. Men are checking out and choosing video games and fraternity over the divorce and family court apparatus designed to separate them from their resources.
An really, its a perfect balance, women no longer need men, and men are feeling no obligation or responsibility to engage on female issues what so ever. Its exactly how it is supposed to be. What we really need are many more female police and combat soldiers to address female issues, and the average man (as they are already demonstrating) will happily just hang out, drink a beer with the boys, and play Call of Duty while the ladies clean up the streets. It's a hell of a deal if you ask me.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Way to out yourself, fella.
No worries, you can still find non uppity women who will be compliant in exchange for financial support. They exist in all impoverished areas world wide.
The MRA folk strongly recommend Asians with no English, who you can purchase through an agency. Bonus points if you withhold the car in suburbia and deprive her of educational opportunities.
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)I'm stating that men are checking out to serve their self interest. Not sure how race or your other points play in but whatever.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Your words.
It's great if you know you could never hack an actual relationship with an equal. I agree, many have no desire to and should opt out. But many are happier to be relieved of the burden of fulfilling antiquated sex roles and enjoy the benefit of being loved and cared for rather than solely for sexual gratification. That you need no more from women is fine with me.
Kudos to you for being so self aware!
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)My mistake appears to have always been gravitating to weak and wounded persons. It's my personality and part of my male psyche to be that protector. I have found too often that when they no longer require those needs committment become a constraint rather than a boon.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)are men so fuckin angry that they cannot get women and whine cause women have such "high expectations" of them? then why do we have such hate filled posts, sites, all over the internet abusing, demeaning, degrading, attacking women?
it sounds completely opposite of what you are suggesting. if only these men would truly "check out".
but, wtf, keep pushing this one. kinda like
oh noez wimminz, if you do not go back into the kitchen, you have NO chance of finding a man (of the 90's).
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)It's no longer required to provide for, protect, or even interface with women as the age of equality is here. You all are tottally independent. I think it's great and relieves a great and traditionally sexist burden.
Be attractive, meet someone, get your short term needs met, go home. Done. And notice I made no gender differentiation.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)This thread has served its purpose amply.
It was flamebait designed to draw out people that took umbrage at the statement that "all men are passive" (how else do you interpret the general statement "THE passivity of men" and once those people revealed themselves, to attack them.
Funny, though, for all their yelling, there are like three of the same people over and over and over, mostly elbowing each other and saying the equivalent of "Yeah, can you believe how much that dude whines? Sounds like a HS student. He needs to grow up!", etc.
It's the female equivalent of guys elbowing each other on barstools and talking about how chicks are so whatever whatever...
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)burnsei sensei
(1,820 posts)Relationships don't prove anything.
What men should commit to is more humane interaction between the sexes.
That is a rational objective they have yet to even publicly contemplate through dialogue.
Period.
WCLinolVir
(951 posts)I don't think you have a pulse on the average man, unless he is 18-26, and still lives at home, and has little, if any, drive.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)who is so beyond this and would be typing hell of a lot more articulate posts than i, challenging this garbage.
welcome to du.
i have enjoyed your insights.
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)I refuse to be the white knight to comes to save the day for delicate wall flowers that some women believe they should be. I am an adult, and so are women. They can handle their own affairs and mine. Or in other words grow up.
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)Why do you hate women?
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)I too refuse to be that way anymore.
RC
(25,592 posts)But many women do not see us as we are. Or even prefer to not see us as we really are. Most of us are kind and loving.
It IS because we tend more to act our feelings and less to speak our feelings, the opposite of women, that we are marginalized and emotionally kicked to the curb by the more vocal, who, quite often. would prefer to play the roll of victim anyway.
We try to do good, but because the Valentine card is not gooey enough, or because we take out the trash without being ask, or told... or we wash/gas-up YOUR car/truck on a whim, or any of thousands of little thing we do to say 'We love and appreciate you"... You do not see our actions as expressions of Love. You really do not. It takes its emotional toll on us after a while.
Many men have trouble saying those words. Not because we don't mean them, not because we don't love you, but because our speech centers are not as well connected to our emotions as women's are. Men as a whole really do have a problem saying the words that you want to hear, need to hear. So we express our love for each other differently. We all need to recognize our gender differences, that reflect the way we view and do things.
You need words, but we supply deeds in place of our words, so you do not understand what we are saying to you.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)burnsei sensei
(1,820 posts)takes place in the context of a personal relationship.
It is irrelevant.
Men communicate quite a lot in matters of principle.
Why cannot human interaction among the sexes be considered a principle and criterion for judging the conduct of other men?
Even Ensler is off in her reference to relationships; her appeal to personal relationships is a weakness in her case, not a strength.
When you stray into the areas of sexual assault, fgm, acid attacks and legally-sanctioned child-marriage and the systematized rape of children, then you have moved to an area of discussion that goes far beyond personal relationships and into social cohesion.
If you give a damn about your own personal relationships, don't drag them into a discussion like this.
polly7
(20,582 posts)I know many women who express love and support in different ways than some here would seem to think are acceptable. The problem with broad-brushing and demanding people show support in a certain way is insulting, dismissive and counter-productive. Makes no sense to me.
So does the woman I am with. We are each others best friends. She sees individual men and women as individual people, each with their own idiosyncrasies also.
Sissyk
(12,665 posts)I was starting to get sick reading through this thread. There are some nasty men and women on this thread that you can tell do not give a crap for the other gender. Yes, women and men both.
I do not understand all the insulting and dismissive statements being made here. Some either don't get out in real life much and spend all their time browsing the internet to find these mean men; or they live this life at home with an uncaring man. Me, I am so glad I am not around men that SOME women here want to portray our DU men as.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)in certain groups, cliques, swarms, who only can see the world through their own jaded eyes and demand everyone else lock-step to the beat of their echo chamber, or else those others are the cause/blame of their problems. It is a good thing most of us are not like that. But enough, to varying degrees are, to perpetuate the inequality problems we all encounter, with their own self centered derisiveness, that turns others off.
raccoon
(31,119 posts)JTFrog
(14,274 posts)FightForMichigan
(232 posts)I know good men who aren't passive.
I volunteer at a rape crisis center. Our volunteers go to hospitals when women and men (and sadly, boys and girls, some as young as 2) need a sexual assault examination. We also provide free counseling to both survivors of sexual assault and their friends and families.
In my town, this program was set up some 20+ years ago by a man who still is the driving force behind the program today. Without his dedication and hard work, the program would probably not have been as enduring and successful as it has been so far.
He is not a passive man.
In our program, I help train new volunteers. Each time we have a training, there is at least one man, but usually more, who want to help. They take 40-hours of truly grueling training - I don't think anyone has ever made it through without breaking down at some point. But they do it because they care, and because they don't want to be one of the many people - men and women - who do nothing.
They are not passive men.
In my work life, I'm privileged to know men who work to pass laws that give greater protections to men and women and boys and girls who are endangered by domestic violence and sexual assault. They're trying to hold more attackers accountable and give the people they abuse more pathways to safety.
They are not passive men.
In my personal life, I know men who do speak out when they see an injustice, whether it's a woman being objectified, marginalized or harmed. If they see a person in danger - man or woman - they would do what they could to step in and help.
These are not passive men.
If you are like the men I've mentioned above, Eve Ensler is not talking about you.
But ...
If you are a man who says nothing when a woman is humiliated, or goes along with sexist or outright women-hating language, who quietly accepts the injustices they see around them, then guess what? Whatever good feelings you have about the equality of men and women really doesn't count for much, because you're doing nothing to change it. Eve Ensler is talking about you.
Now, I'm not saying what kind of man you are or aren't. There's no way I could possibly know. That's for you to decide. What kind of man are you going to be?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)She should have said "some men", or perhaps even "many men".
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)I'm sure you're familiar with that quote. Was that a condemnation of all good men, or just an exhortation for good men to do their part?
I don't know if Ensler had that quote in mind when she wrote the OP text (although it wouldn't surprise me if she did, given the context in which she wrote it.)
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)you said that so well. shivers and tears.
and welcome to do.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)only Eve can explain who she's talking about.
Otherwise a great post. I wish THIS was the OP.
... but it's not.
FightForMichigan
(232 posts)She doesn't say she's had it with "good men."
She's had it with the "passivitiy" of good men.
If you're a good man who doesn't have the quality of passivity, it's not about you. And even if you ARE a good but passive man, it's STILL not about you. It's about the quality of passivity.
burnsei sensei
(1,820 posts)to put it on rational and empirical ground.
Being non-judgmental has been thought of as a sort of virtue in the secular culture.
Still, there are situations and problems that demand our judgment and wherever possible, our action.
To hang back in the interest of being non-judgmental when there are crimes being committed against the dignity of the individual should be enough to make both the most hard-right traditionalists and liberals sick.
Tolerance of evil is a vice.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i think to speak out to a wrong is not necessarily judging the person. there are all kinds of reasons people make the choices and feel as they do which are totally valid. as we listen to some mens personal experiences, of course it is going to reflect on their own personal perspective. and to call out the wrong of what they are saying, is not judging who they are or slighting their experience. it is merely calling out the wrong.
burnsei sensei
(1,820 posts)Not trying to pick a bone here, but Jerry Sandusky was caught several times molesting boys by his co-workers.
They remained silent. Sometimes for YEARS.
Now, no doubt, they did not want to be judgmental of him, because judging his crimes, reporting them, and acting as eyewitnesses would bring judgment down not just on the acts, but on Sandusky himself.
If you report a rape, you are judging the act.
If you follow through, give evidence against the rapist about his crime in court, then you have rendered an implied, but nonetheless powerful judgment of the person, whether you have wanted to or not.
If you judge only the act, and refuse to render some judgment against the individual or individuals involved, then you remain complicit.
If doing evil incurs no judgment or penalty against the individual agent or facilitating institution, then rest assured, the evil will continue to be done.
Without cost, there is no guilt, regret, shame or amendment.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)the person themselves is out of the equation. it is not all of who the person is, but the choice the person made that is in judgment.
there is everything different saying that choice was stupid from you are stupid. i do not have any place to call a person stupid.
any one action is not all of who the person is so it is not my place to create that person as such. i cannot do not. because i am not in the know.
edit... splitting hairs or what, i love conversation like this. as long as it is in fun and respect... which i have found all your posts to be. agree or not really isnt the point.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)Sissyk
(12,665 posts)Very Well Said!
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)who are outraged about rape and sexual assault.
I feel bad for her that she has encountered so many passive males among her friends and acquaintances.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Or threads about the very idea of classes for men about rape prevention.
As for "friends and acquaintances"... it is so much worse than that.
You are aware that major newspapers print victim blaming shit about rape victims on a regular basis, right? And courts engage in this too? Lawyers, judges, cops... This isn't about individuals, this is systemic. This is institutionalized.
Most DU men do get outraged about judges who hand down victim blaming advice to rape victims, or sickeningly light sentences to rapists... so, there is that.
ChairmanAgnostic
(28,017 posts)most men do have emotional responses to the pain and suffering of women. We might express it differently, we might not have the capacity to express is exactly as you hoped we would. That's your problem. Not ours.
But, taking a male's emotional response to an event affecting their "mate," be it a girlfriend, wife, daughter, and increasing them to the point of madness is not at all a good thing. There are cultures today that will slit your throat if you look at their wives the wrong way, or even too long. There are macho he-men who will start fights if you ask their "woman" a question at a bar. There are jerks who will over-react, and do so violently, if they feel that you are competing with their efforts with respect to the woman of their choice.
burnsei sensei
(1,820 posts)and away from political and social realities.
I'm convinced that women don't exist outside of relationships for many men.
And again, I doubt that an emotional response is what Ensler is talking about.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)ChairmanAgnostic
(28,017 posts)Were those not her words?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)But everyday life. Emotional or not - the question of why some men are passive is interesting. Many here provide answers, and they're pretty darned sad.
burnsei sensei
(1,820 posts)problems of injustice is like bringing a feather to a sword-fight.
Perhaps she wants men to perceptibly feel more, but feeling more alone is ineffectual.
No ameliorative or restorative act of justice arises from emotion alone.
ChairmanAgnostic
(28,017 posts)somewhat related to the topic the OP raises, but in context of that Gray Book.
The vast majority pf purchasers are women, there reportedly are graphic scenes that might lean towards sadism and pain infliction. Even some non-consent stories, if the limited coverage I glanced over are correct.
I am uncertain where one line is begging to be crossed and where another one can never be. How the heck can a guy get the proper signals of what is appropriate? When many women appear to secretly thrive on the acts within 50 Shades, including stuff that appears to be without consent, all I can say is the package of mixed messages today's male is expected to understand and deal with is rapidly becoming irrational and impossible to understand. Especially when someone cries, "Why can't you men understand and react stronger and more emotionally when women are under attack?"
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)are you fuckin suggesting that women are secretly thriving rape and that you poor men have a tough time knowing the fuckin' line between a woman secreting thriving rape and those women that would consider it rape because of a god damn BOOK>
are you fuckin for real?
do you think fantasy or a book means women really want to be RAPED.
omg... that is so fuckin sick.
clue in. it is a fuckin' book. even in fantasy it is NOT rape. it is PLAY
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Are you fucking serious with this shit?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)how is a man suppose to know.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Gosh.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Gee, I've never heard that one before.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)At Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:27 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
i have 50 shades of questions,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2360195
REASON FOR ALERT:
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)
ALERTER'S COMMENTS:
This poster is saying because of a book or fantasy that some women secretly want to be raped. Even in fantasy, it would never be rape. This is misogynist and destructive and offensive to every rape victim.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:36 PM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Why not respond to question and if you find the post offensive, tell it directly to the poster?
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: IMO the passive-agresessive disingenousness of this post is extremely offensive. I doubt any amount of schooling by other posters would have any effect, so the best solution is to shitcan it.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: Agree with the alerter. It's a BOOK, Chairman Agnostic.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Ugh... I am voting although somewhat against my better judgement to leave this post. That being said one great way to ask someone if they'd like to be your sex partner is ASK... there are really no shades of gray around a YES or NO answer... duh.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
Maybe rethink your wording a bit... and just ask your partner what they want.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)actually say this garbage out loud.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)if people on DU think it... imagine the rest of the world.
Men (and yes I am one of them, and yes I am going to generalize oh well) sometimes no better than a box of bricks.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Yep. Depressing, isn't it?
So much
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)her sexual boundaries. One should also never assume that someone else is mature enough to discuss their needs and wants. Finally, just because you look, doesn't mean you want to buy--there's a certain amount of sexual window-shopping that goes on for both sexes.
Ask. If you have a partner offended by you asking what she wants, or a partner insulted you just didn't guess, then find someone else. Life is too short for unfulfilling sex.
You ask a question that some will take as offensive. I'm not offended. We're all adults here.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)to clear up your apparent cluelessness
Just fucking ASK
Jesus this is not difficult
yardwork
(61,703 posts)but you're sure that it means that women are hypocrites for complaining about rape, since the book you haven't read seems to be about non-consent (that means rape, by the way).
WTF?
I haven't read those books either, but my understanding is that they are about a consensual sexual relationship.
And even if they weren't, their popularity does not give anybody the right to rape. Think of it this way. A lot of men have fantasies about being war heroes. Does that mean that they want to be kidnapped and pressed into service in a mercenary army?
fishwax
(29,149 posts)burnsei sensei
(1,820 posts)Perhaps the logic behind reading it is: KNOW THY ENEMY.
BainsBane
(53,066 posts)No woman wants to be raped. Rape by definition means the woman has not consented. If a woman consents to something she reads in 50 Shades of Gray, it's not rape. So for you as a man, it's easy: ask her. If she says no, she means no.
Response to BainsBane (Reply #399)
Post removed
burnsei sensei
(1,820 posts)that you have mistaken me for a man.
BainsBane
(53,066 posts)I was responding to the man who has such trouble understanding if a woman wants sex or not.
Solly Mack
(90,785 posts)actslikeacarrot
(464 posts)But I can say with some experience, it is not easy to NOT be the passive guy, as it is easier to call out strangers on inappropriate comments and behavior than it is to call out your friends.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)about this. it takes courage.
it is much easier for oldest son than younger son. younger son finds a way to do it more jokingly. oldest just calls it out like it is.
but, i think what you are saying is what the women is suggesting.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)Simple question:
Do you understand why posting this quote HERE generated so many negative responses from men?
Thanks in advance.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)This is correct for at least three men in this thread.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)But the misogyny displayed here pretty much speaks for itself anyway.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Generalize all men and then make a sweeping statement that they aren't good enough, or aren't behaving properly. No different than the folks who blame all Muslims for 9/11 and condemn them for doing nothing, totally ignoring the Muslims who reject terrorism.
She can fuck off.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)He's got a blog and a sweeping opinion. Good for him!
Not logical, but hey, anyone with an internet connection and an opinion can start a blog.
Delphinus
(11,840 posts)is simply awesome!
Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)...is a remarkably stoopid whine.
Does she want some cheese with that?
Collective guilt is ... well, collective guilt. There's no putting lipstick on that pig.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)It's fucking Animal Farm over here. Blah blah blah..... Wow, brilliant y'all!
Empty aphorisms are for people who actually have nothing to say themselves.
Response to bettyellen (Reply #420)
Post removed
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)... when they plot to block access to abortion and birth control, or fail to support equal pay. Men who support women seemed to either be quiet supporters of existing women's groups, or actively opposing them ... or silent.
I've been thinking about this for a while now. No one seems to think inventing new ways to humiliate and shame and disempower women puts them at any risk with husbands, fathers, sons, or boyfriends.
They're wrong about that.
We need to make some noise. Not "male feminists." Not sensitive panderers trailing along behind the women's movement, tossing in a well-intentioned "Me too!" here and there.
Not just signing endless online petitions for NARAL and the like.
Men value women. We like them, we love them, we need them whole and healthy and fulfilled. We see what's great about them instinctively. They are central to a lot of what is good and worthwhile in our lives.
We need our own thing here.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)as i so value mens support of ours.
excellent post. and i think you are right on. the more i have delved into feminism, the more i am finding men gathering to create exactly this. all over the internet in their own effort to rid the patriarchy that holds them down also conditioning in role playing. it is complimentary to each other, yet in our own voice.
sounds good dirk. thanks for your post.
we feel the same way about our men and boys.... i can not say that enough. that is about all i have in my life.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)Thank you for putting into words and articulating those thoughts and feelings so well.
Evoman
(8,040 posts)Here is the deal.
You see someone in trouble, you fucking be decent and help.
Women's rights are being trampled on, you fucking grab some signs, you protest, you try your hardest to change the system.
And for being a decent human being, your reward is being a decent human being. You won't necessarily get a blowjob for it (as sweet as they are). You don't get a standing ovation. And sometimes, you may have to weather a little anger towards people of your gender....because the truth is, your gender IS the problem. You don't take it personally because, as long as you have confidence that YOU are being the best man you can be, you know that it's not about you.
Let's just be the best men we can be, guys.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I know that you don't need to hear this, but thank you.