General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHartmann just now: "More Americans have died by gun violence
Since 1960 than all of combat deaths since and including the Revolutionary War"
Wow
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Just the Civil War and WWII combined are well over a million deaths. Even if we assume a fairly high annual homicide gun death rate of 20,000 X 50 years...thats a million in round numbers.
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)Dragonbreathp9d
(2,542 posts)I hate not having an actual cited source
timdog44
(1,388 posts)from Wikipedia. Total combat deaths of all US wars and conflicts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war
Combat deaths are almost 850,000. Sad to say. But so is the number of gun deaths since 1960!!!
A great number of the deaths in the wars were due to illness and infection.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)If you are going to subtract non-combat military war deaths, then I will subtract suicide gun deaths for being non-violent. That reduces gun deaths by over 50%, to less than 700 thousand. There have been more auto-related deaths than that...and far more drug-related deaths, especially if alcohol and tobacco are included.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Civil war - 625,000
WWII - 405,399
WWI - 116,516
Vietnam - 58,209
Korean - 36,516
Revolutionary - 25,000
1812 - 20,000
Mexican - 13,283
War on terror - 6,280
Philippine - 4,196
These are just the top ten in US military deaths, giving a total of 1,310,399. From Wiki.
Now, the gun deaths figure in your graph appears to be just under 1.4 million (exact figure not stated). It was stated that figure included suicides and accidents - no doubt to pump the number up, since suicides are about 60% of gun deaths. My figures above are only military (and only top ten at that), no doubt they could be padded much higher by including civilian deaths and Native American deaths. So the premise in OP is false.
I doubt that gun deaths since 1960 even add up to auto-related deaths since 1960. I might look that up.
Of course, all these figures pale in comparison to some other death figures.... 7 million Russians killed in WWII. 6 million Jews executed prior and during WWII. Maybe 20 million? or so Europeans dying of the Black Plague. And most horrible of all, something like 100 million combined North, Central, and South American Natives killed by the Spanish Conquistadors.
Number23
(24,544 posts)More Americans (emphasis on Americans) have died from gun violence than combat deaths in all wars combined.
Why you are suddenly including auto deaths and deaths of non-Americans in foreign wars that have absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand is nothing short of baffling. And suicide by gun is still a gun death so there would be absolutely no reason to not include the number of suicides and accidental shootings.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)and include every possible category of gun death, as Hartman did, if he didn't want to be intellectually dishonest? Its cherry-picking the data to reduce it to a bumper-sticker slogan, like Fox does to their gullible audience.
Number23
(24,544 posts)This is not hard. "Did this person die from a gunshot" is about as straightforward a question and answer as you could possibly get.
People can die from wars decades after they are over so this is why the focus is on deaths in combat. This is not hard to understand, if you're not promoting an agenda of some sort.
Lionessa
(3,894 posts)regular citizens properly defending themselves? I'm just curious what is included in this definition of "gun deaths" since I don't think we want to disarm our police or disarm citizens legally owning, carrying, and defending themselves with standard handguns as opposed to assault weapons.
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)Or maybe subtract the lives we think the "enemy" would have taken if we didn't go to war?
Any more sand you'd like to kick in our eyes?
Lionessa
(3,894 posts)Would you like to bury your head in the sand any further?
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)every possible category of gun deaths, and excludes every possible category of war deaths except in direct combat.
:rolleyes:
Lionessa
(3,894 posts)to logical comparisons.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Thats the kind of propaganda we'd expect from Fox.
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)Last edited Sat Feb 9, 2013, 07:31 PM - Edit history (1)
If you subtract non-combat deaths from the totals for the Civil War, WW I & WW II you get 848,163 war dead. There have been 1.3 million people killed by guns since 1960. If you include the non-combat deaths for those three wars it's close, with 26, 612 more people dying as a result of war.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Add up to over 1.3 million...and I counted just the top ten military deaths. As you said, civilian deaths put the figure higher. And it seems logical to me to include deaths of Native Americans in wars against them, once the territories they lived were claimed by the US. That puts the figure much higher. Therefore the premise in the OP, intending to be an AGZ talking point, is proven false.
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)The premise is not false, although I can appreciate that you would like it to be so.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Lets see, one data set includes accidents and non-violent deaths, and the other set doesn't. Is that not a dishonest representation of the data? Is being dishonest to make a talking point not a RW tactic? Now Dems have resorted to it?
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Since self-inflicted, they fall more in a mental health problem category than a violence problem category.
But, since suicides are over 50% of gun deaths since 1960 (currently over 60%) I guess those numbers had to be included in the data to make a point...even if a intellectually dishonest one.
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)Gun deaths are gun deaths. Have you even seen a room in which someone committed suicide using a gun? The issue is the easy access to guns for criminals and crazies.... You are the one who is being intellectually dishonest, not the OP.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)None were by gun.
My point is, in order to make his point Hartman had to include every possible statistical category of gun deaths, and exclude every possible statistical category of war deaths except in direct combat. That is intellectually dishonest...something along the lines of what Fox News does.
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)I think he was comparing gun deaths to combat deaths in order to give people some perspective on the numbers of people who die from having bullets introduced into their bodies.
Look, I am not one who wants to ban all guns, I don't even want to ban those long guns y'all are so crazy about.... I just want a really strict and workable system to keep guns out of the wrong hands. I would issue a moratorium on those 30 round thingys for say 10 years, or until such a time as we can feel certain the proper safe guards in place and the only people having access to them are honest, sane Americans.
NoGOPZone
(2,971 posts)http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/violence/world_report/en/abstract_en.pdf Page 3 of report
also worth mentioning that the CDC is also including accidental gun deaths
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)NoGOPZone
(2,971 posts)I presented evidence of respected medical organizations that do consider them both to be violent deaths. Your reply has little to do with how these deaths are categorized.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)then intellectual honesty would be to include all war deaths. Otherwise, its the same crap Fox feeds to their gullible audience.
What possible justification can there be to include every single possible category of gun deaths, and exclude every single possible category of war deaths except direct combat?
NoGOPZone
(2,971 posts)so if you want intellectual honesty, don't flirt with strawmen. My point is that there are legitimate reasons for considering suicides as violent deaths.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)NoGOPZone
(2,971 posts)At first I though Sekhmets Daughter was being unfair for saying you were the one being intellectually dishonest in post 23. No I'm not so sure. In answer to that posters comment about what gun deaths are non violent, you made a statement separating suicides from homicides. My comments have only related to that issue, including my first reply
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Common standards should exist for both sets of data.
I don't object to suicides being included in gun deaths, but then civilian deaths should be included in war deaths. And accidental deaths should likewise be included in both sets of data.
NoGOPZone
(2,971 posts)with someone who's expressed an opposing view.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Who have killed an insignificant fraction of people compared to our own armed populace!
It's a farce to claim we care about "threats" in Yemen when America is armed to the teeth and killing one another.
Response to Dragonbreathp9d (Original post)
Marengo This message was self-deleted by its author.
Marengo
(3,477 posts)timdog44
(1,388 posts)regardless of whether cherry picking is done or not. But the OP said combat deaths. And I suppose semantics plays in to this, but lots of deaths in the Civil War were infections and dysentery, etc.
And the deaths of the Russian, Jews, Gypsies, and others in WW2 makes all this pale in comparison. And if you include the people killed in Russia by Stalin -- where does it end.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)If go with that presumption, then you can't also attribute most of the deaths typically considered to be due to:
Gang wars
Drug wars
Domestic violence
Hate crime
Depression.
2/3rds of all homicides are done with guns. If you want to attribute that to gun availability, then that means you automatically cut all homicides due to gang violence, domestic abusers, etc. If a man kills his wife with a gun, it's death by gun violence. If he uses a knife, it's death by domestic violence.
Guns are the tool, they are not the motivation.
kenny blankenship
(15,689 posts)Since they are manifestly more lethal to America than "terrorists" on the other side of the planet who are for the most part in conflict with their local governments?
indepat
(20,899 posts)mega-heat of the AR-15-type military-grade weapon of mass carnage.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)All rifles account for about 400 deaths a year.
I think what you hate is the kind of person that would buy an AR-15 in the first place.
indepat
(20,899 posts)rounds per minute is not based in reality, imo, particularly in view of so few being killed by military-grade assault weapons. Thom Hartmann has stated more Americans have been killed by guns since 1960 than have been killed in combat during all wars going back to the Revolutionary War. I don't hate the AR-15, I just hate seeing jerk-wads toting such, and might very well own more guns than you and most Americans, for that matter, if you count pistols, rifles, and shot-guns, but I don't own/don't got no assault weapons, be it an assault rifle, a machine gun, a missile launcher, a mortar, or the like. Have a good day.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)So people shouldn't have a dependable, ergonomic, accurate rifle?
"Military grade" or "military style" arguments are irrelevant; being military-grade or military-style does not change the fact that they are semi-automatic rifles. They shoot common ammunition of no special ability, power, or construction.
Style is about looks; grade is about quality. Neither of which turn an AR-15 into anything more than a semiautomatic rifle.
And an AR-15 does not shoot 600-700 rounds per minute. The full-auto version that the military uses, if you take the time between firing-pin strikes, would have a rate like that until it ran out of ammuntion and the magazine had to be changed.
You might as well claim that a .45 pistol can shoot 1,200 rounds a minute, because that's the cyclic rate of a full-auto conversion.
And people aren't killed by guns, they're killed with guns. The War on Drugs, domestic violence, gang violence, robberies, etc. Are those issues suddenly no longer a problem? Do those issues no longer count as contributing to the homicide rate if it's a gang shooting or a domestic violence shooting?
Thom doubtless failed to mention that more Americans were killed since 1960 with non-gun weapons than died in WW2.
He has an agenda. Like you, even though the Republican-leaning owners of tactical rifles are only a minor slice of the murder pie of America, he does not like their fantasies about keeping the government in check with threats of violence, or their weird anti-government views, or who they vote for.
He's a great guy; I used to listen to his show up until he began charging for them. And I generally agree with him, but not on this issue.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Because if there were no guns people would find other ways.
It is like attributing deaths to smoking, even if someone was killed accidentally/malpractice/etc, because the death certificate has a check box that relates to whether the person was a smoker or not.
Helps inflate numbers and agendas, but is not very scientific (which is something I usually expect from the rw since they hate science)
timdog44
(1,388 posts)Big pharma and big ag use those tactics.
And you are right, other ways would be found to kill people or themselves. Knives? Probably not as many deaths?
When I research I always look for the agenda first. Sometimes the agendas are correct, lots of times, not. Lots of times the agenda boils down to $$$$$$.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Should we conclude Russia has a war problem?
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)No other nation would tolerate the domestic gun deaths we do. Why pick on Russia?
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Since the thread is about comparing gun deaths to war deaths, thus "proving" the US has a gun problem...then the same logic can be applied to Russia, "proving" it has a far greater war problem.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)That's the problem with this kind of factoid. It leaves the recipient with the impression desired, but without any useful information.
We have a big problem with gun violence in America, but the proposed "solutions" serve only to make some people feel better while doing nothing of significance to solve it.
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)to more people than they've killed.
It's their specialty.
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)Remind me of what your point is....
Image borrowed from The Rifle on the Wall: A Left Argument for Gun Rights
FYI - this is interesting as well: List of preventable causes of death
derby378
(30,252 posts)Your graph has 9 bars on it. That earlier graph had only two. Much easier to digest.
Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)WTF is the matter with you? Government has been trying to reduce tobacco use, alcohol use, and obesity. Infectious diseases, toxins and STDs are a fact of life. But the gun violence in this country is completely fucking sick and deranged.
geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)Don't tell me that it's stupid. It's not stupid. Hyperbolic cherry picked nonsense like the op is stupid.