Disturbing. Something Senator Sanders said on the radio today.

[Cleita]

He said he was the most left of the Democratic caucus in the Senate. Since I agree with most of what he says and works for and I actually don't consider myself a lefty idealist but a pragmatist, how crazy that we have become a very disturbingly conservative nation on both sides of the aisle?

I really don't recognize this country anymore. Fifty years ago I was considered middle of the road in my politics. I supported unions, public schools and free education for everyone. I supported taking care of the poor and elderly. I was against wars of invasion, torture and believed every person should have their day in court before being imprisoned or executed. The thing was that conservatives felt the same way in those days because it was about being an American regardless of your party affiliation.

It seems we have fallen into a decline that we can't pull ourselves out of. When did I stop being an American and became a left wing loonie?

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

1. I think you are seeing the effect

of conservative talk radio. People have been hammered with that message and it has altered their ability to think critically and seperate facts from bullshit.
We (America) used to be the good guys. We didn't torture, we didn't cheat. But maybe that was propaganda too......................

[Cleita]

2. Yes, but we actually didn't do it as a policy until Viet Nam,

a war we entered for corporate profit. It's been downhill since then. Also, what you said about talk radio makes me sad as just last month our only liberal radio station changed its format to libertarian news. Gone are Stephanie, Big Ed, Thom, Randi and Mike.

Me too.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

53. FDR wasn't in his grave yet, when the county began moving right....

Washington insiders knew he would not live out his 4th term that's why they fought so hard to oust Wallace from the vice presidency and give the job to Truman who was a party tool...The Southern Dems were very powerful in those days and they joined forces with the monied Dems of the Northeast, to increase the power of the banks, businesses and the MIC.

Even WW II was about protecting corporate interests...FDR wanted into the European theater to prevent Russia and Great Britain from dividing up the world.

[Cleita]

54. There was that balance of powers thing between us Russia and emerging China.

We kinda made sure Europe was a bit neutralized by then. What I thought was interesting was this dumb theory about the geopolitical four corners of earth. It seems like our military were convinced that any nation that controlled Europe and Asia on all four corners controlled the earth. For some reason or the other the Western hemisphere and half of Africa as well as Australia was excluded from this power trip or not considered important.

Have you heard of or know anything about this? I learned about it in one history class taught by a former military general who was teaching us about WWI and WWII. We had ended Korea at that time and hadn't gotten into Viet Nam yet, but the invasion of both those countries to keep the countries espousing communism, Russia and China notably at bay seemed to make some weird sense as to why we jumped in because frankly nothing else did make sense.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

57. Well, the good general wanted to justify his existence.

The truth is, no one was much concerned with the Chinese...until they crossed the Yalu River when MacArthur went too far. Even in Vietnam it was Russian Migs our pilots were going up against. America had already laid claim to the Western Hemisphere. But if you look at a world map you'll see where they got that 4 corners notion.... Africa had been divvied up by several of the European nations long before....

If you go back to the end of the WW II you'll find that the Sec't of Defense, Charles Erwin Wilson (who had been CEO of GM) said
that "the US must not return to a civilian economy, but must keep to a "permanent war economy." It's all been for profit, all wars are.

We got into Korea and Vietnam because we were still a nation of racists. Truman regularly used the N word, was anti semitic and most Americans hated Asians of any and all varieties. Ho Chi Minh had first tried to approach Pres. Wilson for help getting the French out of Vietnam, then he tried with Truman...both ignored his efforts and wouldn't even give him an audience. The entire 'communist scare' thing was trumped up BS. Only Leon Trotsky advocated for global revolution, and Stalin first drove him out of Russia and finally had him assassinated in 1940. Vietnam became communist, but operates more as a socialist nation. The domino theory was totally incorrect...and those who espoused it probably knew that.... War is always about money, land and resources...nothing else, ever.

[Cleita]

58. I agree with everything you said.

Sad business isn't it?

[Sekhmets Daughter]

59. Very sad business, indeed.

What I find really depressing is how few people really know our history.

[Cleita]

60. If there was a way to make it sexy or at least as interesting as

a video or a game maybe people might learn.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

62. I have always loved history...

You can't know where you're going, if you don't know where you've been

But people don't want to know. The other day someone here on DU, a long timer with over 40K posts, called Oliver Stone's "Untold History of the United States" Marxist BS. I was flabbergasted by the ignorance.

[Cleita]

63. Really? OMG!

I watched some of it and it so resonated because I have lived through much of what he documented. I haven't seen all of it and I have it recorded to watch over. I'm kind of a fact checker, so I want to make sure, but so far it really resonated with me.

Actually, someone who accuses you of the Marxist label doesn't really know Marx, do they? I don't know a whole lot myself. I wasn't interested, but at least I do know what he stood for.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

68. Yep...

I'm reading the companion book as well.

[OldDem2012]

78. If you want another look at our secret history, please read the following book....

....which can be found in it's entirety online at the following link:

THE SECRET TEAM: The CIA and Its Allies in Control of the United States and the World, by L. FLETCHER PROUTY, Col., U.S. Air Force (Ret.)

Prouty was a technical adviser to Oliver Stone on the movie "JFK", so I suspect they knew each other very well. Here's a brief bio from his website ( http://www.prouty.org/ ):

Col. Prouty spent 9 of his 23 year military career in the Pentagon (1955-1964): 2 years with the Secretary of Defense, 2 years with the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and 5 years with Headquarters, U.S. Air Force. In 1955 he was appointed the first "Focal Point" officer between the CIA and the Air Force for Clandestine Operations per National Security Council Directive 5412. He was Briefing Officer for the Secretary of Defense (1960-1961), and for the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

At times he would be called to meet with Allen Dulles and John Foster Dulles at their home on highly classified business. He was assigned to attend MKULTRA meetings. In this capacity Col. Prouty would be at the nerve center of the Military-Industrial Complex at a time unequalled in American History. He has written on these subjects, about the JFK assassination, the Cold War period, and Vietnamese warfare, and the existence of a "Secret Team". He backs up his his work with seldom seen or mentioned official documents - some never before released.

Fletcher Prouty offers a rare glimpse of the "Power Elite" as described by Buckminster Fuller, or "The High Cabal" as Winston Churchill refered to them; and how they really operate. Those who have not been in a position to witness events such as these from the inside would not understand how invisible but ultimately effective they and their power structures are.

MY NOTE: As a serious student of US and World history, this is a VERY important book to help understand what it is we're dealing with at the current time.

[snagglepuss]

109. Sounds interesting. Have noted it for my must read.

Thanks

[YOHABLO]

83. I'd Say Marx Made Some Good Points!!

And if you want to call me a leftist looney .. by all means.

[liberalmike27]

101. Like I've said, Brainwashing

The myth the media is liberal, or that MSNBC represents one side, and the Republicans another--those are all useful tools to keep us brainwashed.

Yea, you're right--the initial push back to the right came I think during McCarthyism. Any attempt to help workers, or concern yourself with improving lives of "ordinary workers," was attacked as Commie.

Then it was just one step after another, of disassembly of FDR moves, by both Democrats and Republicans.

Reagan's repeal of the fairness directive in 1986 was huge. At least we had some semblance of a left media then, we had both sides on every channel. Repealing it allowed for massive conservatism to flood televisions and the radio. I had completely stopped watching it by the end of the 1990s, with disgust.

These days, MSNBC is used to convince the "left" in this country that Democrats are the party, that they are doing all the right things. Look at coverage of Hagel. It's painted as some sort of victory, as Obama getting his way. Yet the guy is a Republican. Couldn't we find a Democrat to serve? And why is it the media as a whole always rebukes the Democrats, anytime they use a technique republicans use as a matter of course, like the Alan Grayson comment about health care. It was actually true too, but both sides of the media said too much.

And if a hint of scandal, like the Weiner incident hits the airwaves, Republicans AND democrats on television all but clamor for his resignation. Yet Republican politicians always seem to stick it out, to not resign, nor are they hassled by the media.

Then there's concentration of our media, which has led to the death of real journalism. Advertising is a problem, as they do not want to offend, and all Pentagon information is basically fed straight to the media for repetition and dissemination.

I've noticed a lot of "block-Democrat" thinking lately, more than usual. I suspect they are turning up the brainwashing, but I've stopped watching pretty much anything but Rachel, who isn't what I'd call super-leftist either. Then there is constant talking about guns, gays, or abortion. Yea, they're important, but do they produce the jobs we need, or full-employment, or a decent wage at the bottom? Which party even does that anymore? Why aren't we talking about what appears still to be a very vulnerable economy, a sinking economy. I counted eight homes on a 1/3 mile block on my walk last night that were empty, out of probably 30-40 homes.

[wilsonbooks]

73. I do not think that you are being fair to Truman.

He was hardly a fan of big business. He hated banks and insurance companies. His became important in the Senate because of his committee that investigated the fraud and corruption of war profiteers. He worked hard to try to get socialized medicine through congress. I highly recommend McCullough's book Truman for a better understanding of him.

[Cleita]

74. Welcome to DU wilsonbooks.

I lived through the Truman years and thought he was a fine President.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

76. I read McCullough's book years ago...still have my copy...

It's almost a hagiography. No president is without warts...yet McCullough uncovers none of Truman's. It wasn't that Truman was a fan of big business, but that, by his own admission, he wasn't up to the task of running the country. All of his advisers were big business or their flunkies.

Truman, personally, was honest and in many ways likable. His racism was common for the times and I do give him credit for integrating the military. But he had terrible advisers, read Josef Stalin all wrong and unwittingly set us on the path to permanent war....

[freshwest]

29. I saw the tide turning just before Reagan. Backlash against all affirmative action, etc.

The growth of the fundamentalist religion was the other side and has been much more dangerous. It justifies what they do. No, this is not the country I grew up in. The tipping point was when the GOP got majority in the 1990s and it has not let up one bit - they have aggressively gone after the New Deal and the liberal belief system with demagoguery and social issues that we thought were resolved. Now we have an entire generation who have turned away from the more gently voices of reason and compassion, fueled by media. When I was younger, media was vastly different and I didn't realize the power of it - now I see what it can do in the wrong hands. What has been put out for the last 20 years under the guise of 'entertainment politics' has soaked the brains of the masses until what was once considered unthinkable is not only talked about but celebrated. I'm very worried about what the future they're training people to accept is going to be.

[neffernin]

44. If it is any consolation the tide really seems to be turning in the other direction

Last edited Sat Feb 9, 2013, 02:01 AM - Edit history (1)

My whole intellectual life the Republicans have pretty much had control; the later Clinton years, the Bush years. Obama almost had enough to get things moving during his first term but even in the minority (only the house) Republicans have managed to drive the national conversation far too often (Benghazi, birther, etc.). That being said, I can't help but feel that things are swinging back to the left again. For the first time in years propaganda artists Fox News are losing viewers and are even feeling mistrust from their own viewers (a milestone in itself). It seems those in the left feel more empowered and are willing to go further to achieve the freedom and equality we deserve as a nation. Hell, even republicans have come out in favor of the dream act and to push ahead immigration reform (which they will of course trash later, but to even suggest it...).

Maybe things will sway the other way in the face of a weaker leader to replace Obama in 2016. Maybe the tea party will be what's left of the republican party because as you state they will become more brainless and trained to stand-up for those with money (and religion). Maybe it all doesn't matter because "fake problems" like pollution and global warming are not going to "possibly" affect this world we live in but will destroy this planet we call a home (runaway greenhouse effect).

All we can hope is that technology enables younger people to be more informed; the internet is much harder to push out a message on than television and radio (unless we become Iran). More informed people either support the ideals that Democrats champion or are Republicans because it benefits them (which isn't a very large group).

One day the hate will be gone; I hope its due to peace and logic overcoming and not humanities extinction.

[freshwest]

49. Thank you very much for that view. Those voices are not heard very often.

[Chef Eric]

51. That's not any constellation. BTW, your attitude is very starry-eyed. nt

[neffernin]

85. Consolation that is

Perhaps it is, but I'd rather hope for things to go well than go bad. Believe me, I'd expect them to go bad first; I don't give humanity another 200 years. Surely not what I am hoping for though.

[SammyWinstonJack]

84. So I wonder why some of us are more prone to right wing propaganda?

Wiring problem?

[Oakenshield]

103. Essentially, that's exactly what it is.

After using MRI's we've discovered Republicans brains are more primitive than our own. For example they have significantly larger amygdalas, the almond shaped part of the brain in charge of “primitive” emotion like fear and anxiety. Not only that but their anterior cingulate—the part of the brain thought to be responsible for impulses like courage and optimism—was found to be smaller in conservatives as well.

Read more at http://goodmenproject.com/newsroom/study-of-the-day-conservative-brains-have-bigger-fear-centers/#IVMZWv0ImW7KG1Ut.99

[timdog44]

3. You are right.

I think the republicans of 50 years ago would rolling in their graves. I think it use to be Americans first. What I see happening is the corporatists turning our country into a game of Monopoly. Problem is one winner and everyone else is a loser. Which is why I am confounded by why almost half the county voted for Rmoney.

[Cleita]

5. This is how empires fail it seems.

The lessons of history are being ignored. But I suppose those profiting from the shift don't care. They will retire will their ill gotten gains and the Hell with everyone else and the whole planet it seems.

[leftstreet]

7. Half the eligible voters don't vote

So, technically, 1/4 of the people voted for Romney

[valerief]

98. They didn't vote for Romney. Diebold/ESS did.

http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/national.php
And despite that, more than half the votes went to President Obama.

http://bradblog.com

[Demo_Chris]

4. Thanks for letting us know! A drone will arrive shortly. Sincerely, The NSA (nt)

[Cleita]

8. Maybe not that extreme, but it seems the corporatists have slowly been taking over

all communications. Their next "drone" hit will be the internet, I bet.

[tblue]

25. They don't need to physically drone us

All they have to do is allow us to go on believing that our votes make a difference and they can have everything they want.

[Veilex]

43. meanwhile, corporations (and by extension, politicians) continue to work to marginalize our vote...

The less power we have in our ability to vote, the more power corporations have through advertising, media control and lobbying.
It should really be the biggest human rights issue of our time... the rights of the people versus the rights of corporations.

[Enrique]

6. Cenk Uygur makes an important point about this

he often reminds people that the political center of the people hasn't moved right, but the center of the political class has. The Congress, both parties included, is way to the right of the people. There are so many examples. Single payer for example. Completely off the table as far as anyone in DC is concerned, but supported by a majority of people.

[Cleita]

9. He does. He points out the truth and is considered a radical for it. n/t

[truedelphi]

90. Exactly. And Cenk is not a Dem or a Republican - he is fed up

With both "leadership" in both parties.

[HangOnKids]

91. Political Class=Big Money Class

I agree with everything you wrote but I think the distinction that the political class represents NOTHING but money is important.

[deutsey]

100. Walter Karp's Liberty Under Siege

is a good rumination about this shift.

http://www.amazon.com/Liberty-Under-Siege-American-1976-1988/dp/1879957116

Woe unto thee, America, is the message of this powerful, disturbing work by the author of Indispensible Enemies.

In Part I Jimmy Carter is described as the candidate of the democratic awakening, marked for systematic destruction by Reaction and losing one battle after another as the press grows "more stupidly cruel as Oligarchy grows more brazenly vile and Carter more stupidly weak."

In Park II Karp turns his baleful eye on Ronald Reagan, whom he characterizes as "an ignorant, truthless demagogue." The story of the 1980s, in Karp's view, has been "the exaltation of a tyrant and the degradation of a republic." The military establishment has been fed at the expense of "the poor, the ill, the handicapped, the schools, local services, student loans, enforcement of laws."

According to Karp, the Strategic Defense Initiative is a "hoax and a fraud," a "trillion-dollar mirage." As to the president's denial that he was involved in the Iran-contra scandal, Karp says, "You lie, Ronald Reagan; you lie through your teeth." He warns that the Right does not intend to give up power in the post-Reagan era: "It dreams and schemes and relentlessly plots to rule America from the grave."

Despite the overwrought tone, this is an important, provocative work by a passionate political commentator.
Copyright 1988 Reed Business Information, Inc.

[bemildred]

104. Mr. Karp deserves a wider audience.

While he does indulge in polemics now and then, he backs them up, and he has much to teach about politics here in the USA. He often helps me to make sense of otherwise inexplicable events, to see meanings I might otherwise miss. It's an altered perspective, and very cynical.

[deutsey]

114. I agree.

I liked the overall argument of Liberty Under Siege, but I think it would've been 100 time more effective if had been grounded in solid, documented research. But everything he writes about is true.

[bemildred]

115. "Indispensible Enemies" and "Politics of War" are the best, I thought.

As a grounding on how politics here really works.

But less contemporary, I remember Raygun and Carter, I was watching all of that. That was more personal.

I find Karp's thinking very helpful when things mystify me today, and it's just amazing how often despite all the public rhetoric and heated discussion he turns out to be right.

But mostly, it just teaches you to ignore what politicians say and watch what they do.

[graham4anything]

10. Bernie has always been the most left in the Senate since LBJ was.

Bernie was always the most liberal, but what do you expect from a nice Jewish boy from Brooklyn who went to James Madison High.
(and I am Jewish myself and have relatives going to that school now and in the past)

Don't think anyone but liberals lived in that area most of the decades around when Bernie went there. (50s,60s,70s).

Always wondered how he ended up in Vermont.

But you must remember something, if not for Chuck Schumer, he most likely would not have been nominated anyhow. Charlie from Brooklyn endorsed him and dried up funds for anyone else. (guess Brooklynites stick together.)

And heavily endorsed by Barack Obama and Harry Reid.


Though one thing always irked me, his vote against the Brady bill.

And, remember one thing too-his campaign was one of the most expensive.
SO he is a team player too.
And he is free to delve on some things, but when a 60th vote is needed, like Dennis Kucinich, he is on board.

imho

[grahamhgreen]

69. Curious - what do you do for a living, Graham?

[HangOnKids]

92. I Love Your Post!

Thank you.

[libtodeath]

11. Raygun pandered to the vilest hate in people to undo the good that had been accomplished

he was catering to those that wanted the so called american dream to only apply to them.

[pitbullgirl1965]

27. Reagan was an evil pos

was anyone here disgusted at the cover of Newsweek (or Time) that had Obama proudly posing with a cutout of Reagan? He admires him!

[freshwest]

31. That's it. All sugar coated like a wolf in sheep's clothing.

[LeftInTX]

12. 40 years ago, I also would have been considered middle of the road

Back then, we were taught that people like George Wallace were on the fringe and going extinct. Now we're stuck with the Tea Party.

There was no such thing as vouchers or charter schools. Almost everyone supported public schools, even if they didn't like them.

I recently saw a PBS documentary called "God in America". Before the 1980 election, fundamentalists rarely voted. Reagan realized he could pick up a lot of voters by catering to them. Maybe that is one piece of the puzzle. If they didn't vote, then suddenly they became active in politics, it might explain a little bit of something.

[Cleita]

15. Well, I wish they'd go back to not voting because their choices are not

intelligent ones or even Christian in intent if that is their religion.

[LeftInTX]

19. They have some very strange ideas

such as: God wants us to have A-15s etc.
Jerry Falwell stated that everyone thought they were a bunch of hillbillies till Reagan came along.

Please, go back to being hillbillies and leave civilization alone.

[freshwest]

32. +1

[HangOnKids]

94. It Explains A Lot!

Your post is very astute, but Reagan did not realize a thing, it was the men behind the curtain that did. Reagan was a complete buffoon, but his handlers saw a silent group of fucking idiots to tap into. I was part of a fundy church back then, dragged by my ex husband into a whacked out world of submission and GREED and homophobia and racism. These were the voters the RW needed and craved.

These handlers made them feel special and important because Ronnie was talking to them. Hell, all they wanted from them was to show up and vote. They didn't give 2 shits about their love of Jesus, they played these cartoon jerks like a cheap violin and very sadly it was effective.

[shraby]

13. I felt the same way 50 years ago and still feel that way today and don't consider

myself anything but a little left of center American.
Those things you mentioned Cleita were common outlooks on this country then and except for the right loonies, probably still are common feelings.
Anything different is put out there to make everyone think there are a lotta lotta people who believe it's not true...but it is...and there aren't a lotta lotta of those kinds.

[Cleita]

16. Unfortunately, the brainwashing is becoming effective.

I hear crazy stuff right out of the Heritage Foundation from everyday people all the time. Yesterday my instructor at the gym said that rich people shouldn't pay taxes because they create jobs and the homeless are that way because they won't give up their addicted lifestyles. This is from a woman I like and admire and who is otherwise very decent.

[Nay]

41. Yes, the brainwashing is VERY effective. I think the average Dem knows that, and we spend

time wondering why the Dem wonks in DC don't seem to know it. Actually, we suspect they know, and are perfectly fine with things the way they are.

[HangOnKids]

95. Stop Admiring Her And She Is Not Decent

Any fool who lets the "rich are special" meme spew out of their mouth needs to be schooled with facts. I get that she might SEEM decent, but this thinking is BULLSHIT. Most of the rich get their money by way of inheritance, so we should all now worship lucky sperm? All people need to pay taxes, it is how infrastructure, police and fire departments, schools, and this collective society operates and is sustained. I know a great many rich people who are addicted to alcohol and drugs, poor folks who have those SAME afflictions are not afforded an endless bank account to make those things seem normal.

This instructor is an asshole. Who the fuck grows up dreaming of being homeless?

[sandpan]

113. Yes, speak up.

When these so called "decent" people spout their BULLSHIT about the "special rich", speak up, tell them the truth. Then they'll start to think a little more before they spout the BULLSHIT. These so called "decent" people need to stop spouting the lies they hear day in and day out on the radio and tv.

[Mnemosyne]

105. I'm always stymied when they say that people are homeless because they want to be! Wtf. nt

[NICO9000]

14. Could you imagine a Senate Majority Leader Sanders?

He could wipe Reid up with his pinky. I can dream, can't I?

[Cleita]

18. I don't think he wants the job. He mentioned also today about how Reid was effective in

reconciling the extremes in his caucus. This is when he said what I posted. That the Democratic caucus ranged from him way to the left to Senators that were very conservative Democrats and Harry could get everyone on the same page, which Bernie thought was a very difficult job.

[graham4anything]

28. as the OP wrote in reply to you in post 18, Sanders is a fan of Harry Reid.

and Harry Reid heavily helped to get Sanders the senate seat in the first place.

so why hate Harry?

LBJ was the greatest Majority leader ever and one of the greatest liberals ever, yet look how some hate him. Some hated Teddy too.

To think that the Democratic party was ever made up of 60 liberals or even 50 liberals,
let alone 50 socialists is just not so.

President Obama would be classification wise, the same liberal as Bobby and Jack Kennedy.

Funny I don't recall anyone calling the Kennedy's or Dr. King a moderate.

What I think is that there is just too much name calling now.

Lincoln/FDR/LBJ/Obama. It is simply amazing in this time and division that President Obama got anything accomplished at all, let alone the hundreds of achievements.

Whereas Lincoln/FDR/LBJ all had major help from the other party back in their time, without it, they wouldn't have gotten done what they achieved.

[Solly Mack]

17. K&R

The line moved right - you didn't. What was once just liberal is now the "fringe".

[MrSlayer]

20. The owners bought both parties.

Anyone that can't see that is either blinded by misguided partisanship or are dangerously naïve. We the People have no voice in government and haven't for a long time.

[Cleita]

21. I agree. I don't think we can buy them back either.

We are going to have to take to the streets and get abused and hurt before they will change.

[MrSlayer]

22. Look what they did to Occupy.

That was our last shot at it and they completely blew it up. Hell, they were even considering murdering the leaders if any emerged. This country is over, it's just done. The bad guys won thirty years ago to great fanfare. There is no going back.

[Cleita]

23. Well, we are still going to have to risk it. Look at what the Egyptians and Syrians are doing

and they are getting killed every day, but they aren't retreating. I don't know if we have the bravery those people have.

[xtraxritical]

80. What you propose is the surest way to give the 1% everything they want and you will starve.

[Nay]

42. No, that boat sailed about 30 years ago. Dems would have had to start up its own info

dissemination program back when the righties were funding their think tanks, radio stations, TV stations, etc. They didn't, and it's too late to play catchup.

Possibly, a very intelligent and charismatic Dem could lead us out of this, but I don't see anybody who's like that. I don't see Dem millionaires rushing forward to fund assorted Dem structures to counter the massive waves of shit coming from the right. That's the LEAST that is needed.

[Angry Dragon]

24. +20,566

[patrice]

26. The owners bought ALL/ANY parties, to use them against ISSUES, ALL of OUR issues. nt

[Egalitarian Thug]

77. The Harlem Globetrotters and the Washington Generals are both owned by the same company.

The only difference between them and our political class is that the Generals always lose (with one exception IIRC).

That's entertainment.

[Festivito]

87. ... ALL of one party and ENOUGH of the other party.

And that one party has two parts: those who pass lies and those who make the lies passable.

[2naSalit]

110. Bingo!

And here's an interesting interview I saw this week that will back up your very statement.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-february-7-2013/exclusive---neil-barofsky-extended-interview-pt--1


http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-february-7-2013/exclusive---neil-barofsky-extended-interview-pt--2

And all I can say is, this guy is right, as are you. It's pretty obvious that "the system" needs to be brought down. Stock up on necessaries and hunker down 'cause either way there's gonna be trouble and soon. The brainwashing needs to be undone too.

[WillyT]

30. Hear... Hear...

[Cleita]

34. Thank you WillyT.

It's heartening to know that I'm not standing alone in these feelings.

[mettamega]

33. you and bernie are not alone :-)

the GOP's right wing has succeeded dumbing down so many of schools - that our citizens, capacity to be able to have critical thinking - has greatly been reduced - big streams of home schooling and charter schools are designed to keep our children from challenging the status quo of our culture -

[Cleita]

35. You are so right and this is a big concern for us.

Welcome to DU!

[antigop]

36. You're not a "left wing loonie", Cleita. The corporatists took over. K&R nt

[ProfessionalLeftist]

37. You didn't stop being American and you didn't become a LW Loonie....

...The Republican Party became The American Taliban (ie: dangerous right-wing extremists). You're not un-American. THEY are.

[abelenkpe]

38. Don't worry

the country is moving left again....you're just ahead of the curve!

Younger generations are just as loonie as you and I.

[Madmiddle]

39. It's

very easy to see the conservative democrats in DC. Pretty much everyone. Pelosi, Reed, Leahy, The Clintons and these people that claim to be democrats. We're being sold out by our supposed left side of the isle.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. You're absolutely right:

I'd be completely mainstream in most European countries, and here, somehow, I'm considered slightly to the right of Chairman Mao.

One of my Norwegian cousins held a regional government post in a party that she describes as "a little bit red and a little bit green." That's the kind of party I'd like to belong to.

[Marie Marie]

45. Another self-avowed Left Wing Loonie here.

Can I join your club Cleita?

[movonne]

46. It is a takeover of the world

it is going on in most all countries....big corp on the march...and probably making this planet un-livable...and now we see it happening double time..

[Samantha]

47. I am very upset as well because I am very apprehensive as to what is going to happen

I saw Bernie on cable and he said the debate now in Congress is whether or not to cut entitlements (all 3) or make corporations give up protecting their profits in countries considered tax shelters, plus eliminating the subsidies to the large corporations. I got the impression one of the two is going to happen, and he does not seem encouraging that it going to be the second. He has drafted a bill so we will see where that goes. But when asked if President Obama supported the same position, I thought he avoided answering that question directly by responding with how the Congress is leaning.

Couple that with the fact that President Obama told Dems he is still campaigning for the Grand Bargain, it is a worrisome coupling. President Obama is tired of running the government from crisis to crisis and believes a Grand Bargain would end that. My question is at what cost and who will be paying.

Today I heard on cable that Republicans are taking the position they will not agree to any increased revenue, they just want cuts. Read that as austerity implemented whether we like it or not; additionally it just furthers Republicans' long-term goals of starving the beast. Starving the beast in their dreams yields potentially Social Security privatization (increased gambling funds available to Wall Street), increased costs to Medicare (more profits for the health industry), and Medicaid cuts (who cares about the poor, let them die).

Later I heard the list of things Republicans have suggested are acceptable cuts and I really almost cried. They are things such as Meals on Wheels, cut-backs on HIV medicines to those who cannot afford it, housing assistance to the homeless -- you get the idea. In my mind, issues such as these are not political; they are a reflection of how our society treats the poor and impoverished, and only a person without a conscience could deny the worthiness of these programs. Yet they will keep in place the subsidies for the big corporations as well as the tax havens.

In the discussion above, there is some talk about how some Dems have moved even further to the right. I really don't think the majority have. I think it simply appears that way because some of these Dems are acting politically. All polls show the majority of Americans support programs such as the ones I have listed, and their representatives know that and do so as well. But when push comes to shove, these Dems will cave and will go with the political flow.

Sam

[DirkGently]

48. The Overton Window has been successfully shifted

High-wage jobs, pensions, free public education, and progressive taxation all used to be no-brainers in the U.S.

Now we're arguing with the idea that the U.S. Post Office should be dismantled and which prisons and schools will be privatized. People who survive on Medicare and Social Security are growling that
"Government can't do anything right."

A completely irrational worldview has been deposited, quite deliberately, in our midst, and has taken firm root.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

50. "Were parties here divided merely by a greediness for office,...to take a part with either

"Were parties here divided merely by a greediness for office,...to take a part with either would be unworthy of a reasonable or moral man." --Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1795.

[Dustlawyer]

52. I feel the same way b/c everything you said was the truth!

[raouldukelives]

55. I hear ya! We've been bought by corporate interests.

It's not a secret. The only visible choices remaining are either to continue down the road we are on, continue to give the banksters and day traders turning us into a third world country our time, money and future or to say "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore! I refuse to be one of the many conduits ensuring our descendents will be born into a hell of our own creation."
You can either take part in the feast or fast. It's not pretty but at least you can go to your grave knowing you stood against it. That human bondage, environmental disasters and massive extinction of species wasn't something you stood for in your life.

[SamHarris2012]

56. Recessions tend to bring out the worst in us.

If the economy was great we wouldn't even be having all these conversations.

[Cleita]

61. You are probably right. Sadly.

The fact is when we were doing OK back in the fifties and sixties, we weren't paying attention. I even always had a feeling that if things went bad for me, that I would get some help to get back up on my feet. WE WEREN'T WATCHING! We were concerned about good things: the war; civil rights; women's rights. We made progress. But, WE WEREN'T WATCHING.

[Honeycombe8]

64. Sanders is left of your views. He's a socialist.

He doesn't just believe in aiding the poor and elderly. He believes in totally providing for them...the Democratic Party has never had that in its platform, and even FDR didn't believe in that.

I think you're being a little pessimistic. I'm not so sure that much has changed. Rural people, the ones who are now Republican, used to be Democrats. Their views haven't changed much. Democrats of old did not believe in gun control, I'm pretty sure. Or abortion. All that evolved.

[Cleita]

66. Rural people, whom I have lived among, are the biggest socialists around.

They just don't know it. They have socials like pot lucks to help neighbors who have fallen on bad times. They run volunteer fire departments, rescue people and just various stuff to help each other out. They also help out anyone around who needs it, like my husband when he had a massive stroke up in the woods. We weren't locals. When my DH and I left Idaho I was listening on the radio in Eastern Washington as we drove through, to appeals for a farmer, who had fallen sick. The appeals were for neighbors to come and help him bring in his harvest. I followed up on this and indeed the community came together and made sure the farmer got his harvest in. That my friend is socialism.

[socialist_n_TN]

65. I'm of the position that it's the POLITICAL class that's........

so far right, NOT the actual population as a whole. Others have noted this too in this thread. All it takes is to look at a poll on the peoples' stands on ISSUES as opposed to what the politicos stands on the issues are. The people as a whole are WAY to the left of the politicians.

[Cleita]

67. I truly believe what you are saying. They are ignoring us.

They only want our money and our votes so they can continue to feather their nests once we give them the positions of power. Unfortunately, innocent people believe them. I know some of my politicians and they are honest and concerned, but many are not.

[grahamhgreen]

70. This is 100% correct if you simply look at the polling data

ETC.........

[limpyhobbler]

71. you're probably not a left wing loonie

Just the political parties don't offer good choices usually. I seriously think a Bernie Sander type candidate would win all the time if the party would nominate a person like that.

[blkmusclmachine]

72. I didn't leave the DEM Party. It left me. About 1996.

[liberal_at_heart]

75. The dem party did what it had to to win but lost its soul in the process

[JDPriestly]

79. My view precisely. I was always kind of a middle-of-the-road Democrat.

And now? I haven't changed my views at all. But the country has moved right, or so we are told.

Problem is that when I talk to other people about their views on specific issues, they tend to agree with me. Am I just talking to other liberals? I don't think that is possible, but . . . . are the talking heads wrong about what Americans think?

[caseymoz]

81. Then communism fell . . .

. . . and George H. W. Bush accused Michael Dukakis of being a "card carrying member of the ACLU." Not quite in that order, but what really happened was the animosity of the Cold War and all those covert actions helping horrible right wing dictators all got imported to our shores and became converted to our domestic politics.

[Cleita]

82. Hi

[HangOnKids]

96. The Kids Are Coming Cleita Indeed They Are

I have 3 grown adult children, the oldest is 31 and the youngest 26 and they are sick to death of this shit, sadly they are not the group that will enact change. But I also have an 11 year old, and her generation is going to change this HOT MESS. I went on a field trip today with this amazing group of beautiful kids and they will not settle for this shit. Corporations are NOT people, and they will see that REAL people will fuck their shit up and good. I have hope. HangOnKids.

[Festivito]

86. "seems we have fallen into a decline"

since the Powell doctrine.

[silvershadow]

88. Anyone who doesn't drink the kool-aid is a far left radical. I posted a very similar

piece to yours just a few weeks ago. I grew up with JFK pics in every room. Went to union picnics and easter egg hunts which were big community events. That makes me a leftie? A radical? LOL Yeah, right. (Oh, and the killed JFK, and then went on to kick sand in our faces for 35 years). Eventually the shooter will pass on to his reward. Thought it might happen last month. (Mods: JOKE! Please don't hide, it's just a joke)

[barbtries]

89. don't fall for that media induced crap.

left wing is not looney. liberal is not a dirty word. the country is sick

[GTurck]

97. Our son...

seems to think that we were taken over and brain washed by the liberals and became Democrats just to be ornery. Nothing could be further from the truth. But we cannot communicate about morality or ethics because he has been taught that everything is political by Faux.
We weren't a perfect country but knowing that most people shared most of your views was a fact and it made life a whole lot more pleasant.

[Octafish]

99. Propaganda paid for by the same set who own and operate Washington.

To help spread light, Maria Galardin's TUC (Time of Useful Consciousness) Radio:

Alex Carey: Corporations and Propaganda
The Attack on Democracy


The 20th century, said Carey, is marked by three historic developments: the growth of democracy via the expansion of the franchise, the growth of corporations, and the growth of propaganda to protect corporations from democracy. Carey wrote that the people of the US have been subjected to an unparalleled, expensive, 3/4 century long propaganda effort designed to expand corporate rights by undermining democracy and destroying the unions. And, in his manuscript, unpublished during his life time, he described that history, going back to World War I and ending with the Reagan era. Carey covers the little known role of the US Chamber of Commerce in the McCarthy witch hunts of post WWII and shows how the continued campaign against "Big Government" plays an important role in bringing Reagan to power.

John Pilger called Carey "a second Orwell", Noam Chomsky dedicated his book, Manufacturing Consent, to him. And even though TUC Radio runs our documentary based on Carey's manuscript at least every two years and draws a huge response each time, Alex Carey is still unknown.

Given today's spotlight on corporations that may change. It is not only the Occupy movement that inspired me to present this program again at this time. By an amazing historic coincidence Bill Moyers and Charlie Cray of Greenpeace have just added the missing chapter to Carey's analysis. Carey's manuscript ends in 1988 when he committed suicide. Moyers and Cray begin with 1971 and bring the corporate propaganda project up to date.

This is a fairly complex production with many voices, historic sound clips, and source material. The program has been used by writers and students of history and propaganda. Alex Carey: Taking the Risk out of Democracy, Corporate Propaganda VS Freedom and Liberty with a foreword by Noam Chomsky was published by the University of Illinois Press in 1995.

SOURCE: http://tucradio.org/new.html

The audio is a must-listen. While the names aren't changed to protect the guilty, the message and how it relates to our current pickle shows who and what counts.

http://tucradio.org/AlexCarey_ONE.mp3

Helps explain how Democracy devolved into its current condition and what we need to do to move forward, starting with putting the "Public" into Airwaves again.

[Overseas]

106. Thank you for posting this.

[YoungDemCA]

102. Most Americans favor more social programs, spending on public education, access to health care, etc.

The thing is, America's political system is so demented, that the political class-which draws from the ranks of the wealthy professional, managerial, and business classes that have done so well under the "neo-liberal" economic order-has virtually ALL the power in Washington now, while most other Americans have no political voice.

There are two Americas, and only one of them has political power. That's the reality.

[dmr]

107. Thank you for this thread

Your conversation upthread with Sekhmets Daughter was wonderful to read. This is why I love DU! I learn so much.

[pattiepcomedy]

108. America is going to hell in a handbasket

My thoughts exactly

I remember the same American 50 years ago. I remember we were for peace, love, understanding and caring for our vulnerable population like the sick, old and disabled. We wanted to improve our world; we all were part of the sacrifice. We wanted to be the best; we were very educated; we were principled; politicians worked across the aisle. If a politician was against something, there was a good reason. Bills were passed or not passed based on the effects it would have for all Americans. If a person was nominated for a position, discussion went on and either that person was nominated or not - but it usually was for a principled reason. In this day and age nothing is being done because our politicians (from both sides) are enjoying their large money donations from people like the Chamber of Commerce, Wall Street, Banks and corporations who want all the money and tax breaks and don't want to share in their success and as long as our politicians' pockets remain full, they will not do anything for the majority of Americans - only their rich masters.

I don't see how America can change for the better and because the political environment is so crazy and so illogical, I feel it must be end of days ... or at least will be the end of days for the American Dream.

[AndyTiedye]

111. The Pendulum Only Moves in One Direction

[99th_Monkey]

112. This is what the Kennedy & King assassinations were ALL about

they saw what was going down -- what Eisenhower warned us about was
taking shape on their watch, behind the scenes -- and the Kennedy's and
Rev. King were not going to allow it to happen, not without a fight, and it
cost them their lives.

Others politicians inclined to follow in their footsteps couldn't help but notice,
that "the gloves" had come off from the Dark Side, and they would stop at
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, to get what they wanted, including cold blooded murder.

And they were not the only ones to get murdered, only the most high-profile
and most clear both short & long-term danger to the corporatist high-jacking
of America, to become the neo-fascist Frankenstein that we are today.

[Selatius]

116. It started earlier than that. The industrialists/bankers wanted FDR destroyed.

Nobody seems to remember the Business Plot against FDR. Had the coup succeeded against FDR, it would've been the United States that called common cause with Hitler and Mussolini in Europe. The thugs on Wall Street back in those days admired Hitler's solution to the Great Depression: Rampant militarism and collusion between state and corporate power. Today, we call that corporatism. Our grandparents called it fascism.

If World War 2 had erupted in Europe after the corporatists killed FDR and installed a pro-fascist government in the United States, the only allied nations fighting against the forces of fascism would've simply been the Soviet Union, the British Empire, and China. Everyone else would've gone fascist or been occupied by fascist forces.

[99th_Monkey]

117. I believe you're referring to the Smedly Butler affair.

Yes I am aware of that actually, and so was Eisenhower, when several years
later, he warned Americans about the the evil forces behind our 'military-
industrial complex".

Even some of the Founding Fathers seemed vaguely aware of this potential,
and then there's this spot-on gem of a quote from de Tocqueville in 1832

"The manufacturing aristocracy of our age first impoverishes and then debases
the men who service it, and then abandons them to be supported by the Charity
of the public. ... The friends of democracy should keep their eyes anxiously fixed
in this direction; for it ever a permanent inequality of conditions and aristocracy
again penetrate into the world, it may be predicted that this is the gate by which
they will enter". ~Alexis de Tocqueville

So, yes, all this was in play, behind the scenes, when JFK was assassinated by
this Dark Side.