These are examples of what a real singer sounds like:

[Le Taz Hot]

This is the wonderful K.D. Lang singing Leonard Cohen's "Hallelujah":

Everyone knows about the great Aretha Franklin's unmatched ability at R & B but did you know she subbed for Pavarotti at the 1998 Grammies and didn't change the song? Here she sings "Nessun Dorma" from "Turendot" as only Aretha can. Later, Pavarotti praised her performance.

This (very) brief list would not be complete without the incomparable Renee Fleming. Not the best recording but remember, she's singing with full orchestra and no microphone (it's what you learn to do when you actually study your art).

And finally, one woman, one guitar, original song.

So, when us "old farts" complain about substance/talent being replaced by cheer-leading dance moves and pyrotechnics, this is what we're referring to.

[cali]

1. You seem not to realize that there is talent akin to those you featured

alive and well and performing in 2013.

from another "old fart".

[Democracyinkind]

2. True. But we'd never get to see them during SB half time shows.

and maybe that's a good thing, who's to say...

I don't expect greatness from a performance at a corporate event that is designed to pander to that strange place where all mainstreamy tastes converge.

Super Bowl is not my one-stop location for musical perfection and ingenuity. I've got a hard enough time to work up an interest in the game itself.

I just don't get why people expect a performance that is designed to please everyone to be great or anything other than boring and redundant.

[tblue]

112. Trying to imagine each of those at the Super Bowl.

I totally take your point. But the Super Bowl is I guess the stage for booty-shakin' t&a, with a certain kind of talent. Not my taste, but it is what it is.

[Ian Iam]

124. I rather like American football

But agree with the essence of your point: The Superbowl is hyped to the nth degree; thus, its halftime show is bombast, not substance.

[Le Taz Hot]

3. Huh?

All of these people are alive and well and performing in 2013.

[cali]

9. OK, I didn't phrase that well. There are members of a new generation

who are equally talented to those you gave as examples. Lots of them. Just because you don't know them, doesn't mean they don't exist.

[Le Taz Hot]

19. When did I say they don't exist?

I was giving examples with which I was familiar.

[Nye Bevan]

21. Absolutely.

[jberryhill]

41. She says she has to catch the bus, but she does not catch the bus

This is clearly a reflection on the John Lennon theme of life being something that happens while you are making other plans.

[loudsue]

56. Really?

[Nye Bevan]

92. Yes. It's Friday, Friday, Gotta get down on Friday.

Everybody's lookin' forward to the weekend

Partyin', partyin' (Yeah)
Partyin', partyin' (Yeah)
Fun, fun, fun, fun
Lookin' forward to the weekend.

[BlueStreak]

103. Is this satire?

She sings a total of 4 notes, and still needs Auto-tune for that?

[tblue]

110. I could only take about 20 seconds of that.

I hope it's some kind of parody.

[RockaFowler]

4. The Super Bowl Halftime Show is for Entertainment

That includes fire and lights and dancers. It's a spectacle. It has been this way for almost 30 years now.

Michael Jackson flies in from the top of the stadium
Prince's cool backdrop in the rain
Madonna coming in on a gold chariot

It's a show.People want bigger each year. But Janet Jackson's boobie ruined it for a few years. We got stuck with older artists who were entertaining, but were not in the 18-49 demo that the advertisers crave. This was the first year that the younger crowd was able to see a star their age!!

It was entertaining. Not everything has to be about the greatest singers in the world!

[PeaceNikki]

6. No shit.

It's a PERFORMANCE, people. And Beyonce can sing. AND dance.

[Duppers]

11. and these....

[JI7]

5. how about Alicia Keys ?

[Le Taz Hot]

8. It's a very tiny list.

and yes, I would include Alicia Keys in that. My point (which too many seemed to have COMPLETELY missed) was that, regardless of venue, they don't have to rely on studio tricks and pre-recorded music to elicit a performance.

[MelungeonWoman]

7. Real singer?

Somewhere, there's a cloud that NEEDS yelled at.

[handmade34]

10. k&r for the music n/t

[Mnemosyne]

20. #1000

[Orrex]

12. If you yell some more, I'm sure Beyonce will get off of your lawn

And of your cherry-pick from a selection pool spanning decades, of course you'll find remarkable outliers.

Ho hum.

[hobbit709]

13. Singers are known for their singing.

Entertainers are known for their choreographed dance moves.

[PeaceNikki]

14. So is this

[Duppers]

15. Thank you for posting Aretha subbing for Pavarotti

I was looking for that some time ago.

What a fantastic performance.

[Ghost of Tom Joad]

16. I just don't understand why so many female singers feel

that they have to take their clothes off and dance around like strippers

[ReRe]

17. I'll never forget when Aretha sang for Pavarotti...

I taped it. and played it back time and again... Asked everyone I knew if they watched the Grammies the day after. Also seen all the others and like them too. But Aretha is the only one who could do the Super Bowl among them, if she is physically able to. Her repertoire transends all generations!

[BlueStreak]

105. How about James Brown singing with Pavarotti

Last edited Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:05 PM - Edit history (1)

[ReRe]

121. Lordy Lordy...

... that was tremendous! I think I missed that one (or I've forgotten it...possible with a senior mind.) Music. It brings us together like nothing else. The international language. If that don't make your heart beat a little faster and your hair stand up on your arms, you're dead. Thanks so much for sharing that BlueStreak!

[JI7]

137. that is one of the best things i ever heard

[BlueStreak]

156. Even if a person never liked James Brown or opera music

how can you not love this? This thing brings tears to my eyes every time I watch it.

It isn't just the music. It is everything that is behind it. A lifetime of cultural currents in each case. And then a magnificent meeting of the two worlds. Not just respect, but mutual adoration, if I am not reading more than is there.

[JI7]

159. it is amazing

2 guys from different parts of the world , different backgrounds , different types of music. they probably can't even talk to each other in the other's language. but they are both one of the best at what they do and doing it together and making something so beautiful .

looking at them performing this i notice how blown away they seem by the other. so impressed and amazed with each other.

i first saw this video after both had already died . i don't know why never saw it before. i know pbs showed the pavarotti specials before but i probably missed this one.

[Mojorabbit]

161. I love this performance

I watched it last again last week and posted it to my facebook page. I also loved Pavarotti. What a voice!

[monmouth3]

106. That was so wonderful, had not heard it before. Aretha is stardom and a true diva. I loved it..

[ReRe]

122. We're so lucky....

.... to still have Aretha around. She deserves a world of R-E-S-P-E-C-T !

[monmouth3]

125. Indeed and Luciano must have loved it.

[ReRe]

128. I'm sure he did!

Welcome to DU!

[Mojorabbit]

160. She is amazing and that was an amazing performance.

I remember it well. I have seen her live several times. She has a wonderful voice and is an exciting performer with no need to show her crotch to enhance her show.

[harmonicon]

18. GET OFF MY LAWN!!! RARRRR!!!! *shakes cane*

[Skidmore]

65. What the heck was that?

It doesn't even qualify as a train wreck.

[Renew Deal]

71. That right there is a great song.

[harmonicon]

96. A great song by a great band featuring an amazing female singer.

Hmm... maybe people can have different tastes after all.

[Skidmore]

99. Care to tell me what she was...errr...singing.

The cc was missing.

[Tikki]

135. Poly Styrene (rip) was amazing...the late 70's was a stellar time for *ladies in music..

..and a rare partial live performance of The Bags...Alice Bag..

Tikki

*err ahh...ladies..not girls..sorry

[harmonicon]

139. Don't forget Siouxsie Sioux!

She and Poly Styrene basically were just girls when they started out. I just did a quick look at Poly's bio on wikipedia, and it doesn't add up. One thing says she was born in '57 (same year as Siouxsie), but another says she was just 16 in '75, so... In any case, they were young and amazing.

Having been born in the 70's, I basically missed out on all of that, though early 80's music is the first music I remember hearing, especially The Clash, Madness, and Culture Club... sadly, all female-free groups (unless you count Boy George, whose name my little tyke friends and I could never remember... he was often called Boy Girl, I think).

I remember HATING (as in, throwing temper tantrums) the music my dad listened to; Joan Baez, Judy Collins, Carol King, Nancy Sinatra, etc. Funny thing is, I really like most of them now. I'm surprised that while almost everyone grows up in most ways, they get stuck in adolescence when it comes to musical tastes.

[Tikki]

143. I would never forget...

Tikki

[Le Taz Hot]

22. I've got to say

I'm disappointed with all the ageist replies, completely ignoring the examples offered up. Not even a discussion of the individuals and the merits of their music, just straight to the tired old "get off my lawn" references.

[PeaceNikki]

25. taking Beyonce's super bowl PERFORMANCE and using it as an example that she cannot sing is narrow

Minded, untrue and rather elitist.

She can sing and perform.

[Le Taz Hot]

31. Kindly

show me where I

a) mention Beyonce,
b) mention the Superbowl, or
c) say Beyonce could not sing.

Upon review, I think you'll find I said none of those things.

[PeaceNikki]

32. gladly..

"So, when us "old farts" complain about substance/talent being replaced by cheer-leading dance moves and pyrotechnics, this is what we're referring to. "

In the middle of The Great Beyonce War of 2013, if that isn't an implied reference to her performance, I don't know what is. Of it's not, you sure picked a weird time to post such a thread and you should clarify what on earth you're talking about in the middle of dozens of Beyonce threads.

[Le Taz Hot]

37. So, your answer is,

you can't. Thank you.

[PeaceNikki]

39. so... is this thread not about Beyonce? you should clarify that. I'm not the only one to make that

CRAZY leap.

[Le Taz Hot]

42. It's not about Beyonce.

Nor is about chicken pie, solar lighting or Picasso during his Blue period. Let me know if I need to go on telling you what it's NOT about.

[PeaceNikki]

44. you must have had non-real singers in mind while writing this OP, no?

Please give us examples of "fake" singers who replace talent with choreography and pyrotechnics. Maybe one or two who are hot topics in current events, currently being discussed at length here on DU?

Gosh, how WEIRD that we would think that's what you meant!!!

Silly us!!

[Le Taz Hot]

47. Sorry, I don't post to your specifications.

My thread is my thread. Take it at face value or not. It's up to you.

[eaglesfanintn]

87. It's just a coincidence

That's all it is - nothing to see here.
sarcarm - He just happened to start a post about singers and their talent (or lack of). It has absolutely nothing to do with any other discussion on DU whatsoever and you're assuming it's about Beyonce is just wrong and clearly all in your head. -/sarcasm

[HappyMe]

119. Then it's a Lounge thread.

According to the SOP of GD this should be locked. But, as a GD host, you knew that.

[muriel_volestrangler]

77. Does that mean you'll be self-deleting this thread, and restarting it in Entertainment?

Because, if you're claiming this thread is not about current events, it's against the Statement of Purpose for GD. You are talking about showbiz.

I look forward to you self-deleting the OP.

[Le Taz Hot]

89. Allow me to offer you a cup of coffee

while you wait. It may be awhile.

[obamanut2012]

67. +1

[La Lioness Priyanka]

123. yup.

[PeaceNikki]

136. Look at how Tina Turner clearly sneers at Beyonce...

Oh wait, Tina has class and knows talent when she sees/hears it.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

141. to say beyonce cant sing is plain dumb

to say you dont like her style or her music, is a matter of taste, but you have to be tone deaf to not acknowledge that she can with the best of them

[Mojorabbit]

165. Band is great

Her performance of the song pales by magnitudes to Tina's IMO.
She gave it a good shot though.
Peace, Mojo

[noiretextatique]

148. +100 i doubt she claims to be the next Aretha either

[graham4anything]

23. Edith Piaf. Without her, there is nothing.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="

?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Except for Aretha, there has never been anyone before or after that compares.

Music didn't start with Edith, nor start with the 60s.
Nor is music only pop.

and music is music

Today's listeners of today's music are that tomorrow are adventurous and look for others in the past and future.

A good, no a great singer or songwriter always looks for new talent.

One of the great things about Elton John is, (along with his name being a tribute to two who came before him) is his ear for new talent, and doing all he can to further new talent,
including still going himself into record store and scowering the racks for people most don't hear of and passing the knowledge to someone else.

People complain of rappers, yet Johnny Cash, the original gangster(in persona), did then what rappers did now, no different, just a little change of a chord.

Embrace all music.
And if someone don't appeal to you, put a different dime in the proverbial jukebox and listen to something else.

following will be my favorite female new singer of the last decade Lana Del Rey
someone who sings all the words and backup, writes the music, the lyrics, arranges, and
knows exactly what she is trying to get across.
she is in on the joke so to say (in President Obama terms, she ropes the dopes each time).
And sure, she can't replicate what is on record live, obviuosly as she sings ALL the vocals,
and you can't sing lead and backup on stage, so it takes others to join her, and yeah, of course it sounds different.
(next post replying to this will have that one,
I don't think one can have 2 videos on same post from what someone else told me)

BTW, I think Rufus Wainwright has the definitive version of Hallelujah, but that is just my opinion.

[graham4anything]

30. Lana Del Rey- Ride

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="

?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

this was produced by Rick Rubin, the only song he has produced for her.

Someone should get this song to Merle Haggard, tweak it a little and it could be
Merle Haggard's "hurt", and get him a whole new audience.

This was written and sung by Lana Del Rey, and the concept on the video (which the music starts at 3:29) was all hers.

Critics at first loved her, but they found they couldn't mold her, so they attempted to destroy her, but they didn't. She came back in just a few months after her first CD and released her
second cd mini with 8 songs, all themed (Paradise).

the CD "Paradise" is almost like a David Lynch movie (whom she loves and the love was returned in a message from David Lynch) and the trip itself on the album, from east to west, or from beginnings to middle, remind me of my favorite concept album
Captain Fantastic by Elton John.
It's that good.

But it's not what the critics wanted. They wanted a clone of others, instead of an original
not what they think she was talent.
If she never does anything else, she has IMHO done more than 99.9% of all singers, male,female group in her two CDs (and not to mention the songs she had released earlier on before her first two).

It shows the sexism in the music business.
Did anyone ever care that Bob Dylan's real name wasn't Bob Dylan?

[Skidmore]

63. This is not a song, but a recitation.

Poetry, spoken word, accompanied by music. It is not singing. It is, however, brilliantly beautiful and jarring. I'll look for more of her work and for her singing.

[graham4anything]

68. The song starts around 3:30. Here is a youtube without the spoken before/after

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="

?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

168. Mireille Mathieu who came up in the 60s was often compared to Edith Piaf

Last edited Wed Feb 6, 2013, 03:30 AM - Edit history (1)

Mathieu was also a tiny woman with a gigantic voice. But you're right, there was no one with the gritty voice that sang about prostitutes and lost love like Edith Piaf. But man oh man could Mireille Mathieu sing and sing with passion. Another French singer from Piaf's time, the time of the worldwide depression, was Frehel. I really like Frehel because she had that same gritty realist style of the child of the gutter who's seen it all. A tune by Frehel was part of the soundtrack of the film Amelie. But Piaf was unique.

[ananda]

24. I liked Ella Fitzgerald singing Gershwin too!

..

[Le Taz Hot]

38. Don't get me started on Ella.

Nobody could scat like Ella.

[Bluenorthwest]

26. A 'real singer' is any singer that people want to listen to. It is about the listeners. All of them.

I once performed with one of the women in your post, and I am here to tell you that she'd never in a million years sneer at other artists nor at their art. All of them-all of them- would respect the sauce out of Beyonce because they would respect her audience, her abilities they share and those they do not have. Because she is accomplished, and also because those other artists are also accomplished. Can Joan do what Aretha does? Not like Aretha does it? Why? Because she's Joan, not Aretha. Beyonce is Beyonce, not Joan, not Aretha, not KD...None of them are Leontyne Price. Nor is she them.

Can you seriously imagine Joan Baez telling Dylan about what a 'real singer' should sound like? Or Louis Armstrong? Why did people listen to Louis with that rough voice and not much range? Or Bob? Elaine Stritch?
And the sneering at dance, as if it was not the very core of the performance arts, one of the reasons music exists, strikes me as just strange in a way that if I were to name it, you'd be highly offended.
I can also tell you that no one wants to go to the Superbowl with an acoustic to sing a lovely song like Diamonds and Rust, because that song and the singer would suck eggs in that context, a context that calls for an entertainer and a show. Yes, a show is often called for, with lights and fx and those dancers that you find so deeply troubling....

[PeaceNikki]

29. well said.

One can appreciate the talents of the artists in the OP and also Beyonce.

[Le Taz Hot]

35. There are so many things wrong with this post

I don't even know where to begin.

First off, let me just say I didn't "sneer" at anyone. You chose to interpret it that way and I don't have any responsibility for that. Nor (for the 400th time) I did not say Beyonce couldn't sing. My point (there was one, though most, in their zeal for their own agendas, completely missed it) was that the dance moves and pyrotechnics do not talent make. I expect singers to be able, at any given time, to be able to sing. Just sing. No dance moves, no pyrotechnics, no auto-tune,no accompaniment, no studio tricks, nothing. Just sing. Too many performers today (did you notice I didn't say "all" performers?) do not have that ability -- they are products of studio PR departments and, too often, talent is the last thing they're concerned with. What they lack in talent is covered with dance moves, pyrotechnics, lip-syncing, and whatever other technical marvels available to us in the 21st century.

Second, I also never mentioned the Superbowl nor any specific performance. Once again, you interjected something that did not exist.

Lastly, as one who studied voice, one who taught voice, and one who sang for 30 years, I appreciate the lecture on vocals and performance but, really, it was somewhat pedantic.

[Marrah_G]

153. Bingo

[EastKYLiberal]

27. As a young fart, I am more likely to listen to these older singers than Beyonce...

Hell, I didn't even watch the SB or its halftime show.

My only complaint was people putting her down, rather than just expressing a simple opinion of dislike.

[NoOneMan]

28. Speaking of just Hallelujah, not much tops Jeff Buckley's rendition

And while dead, he isn't an old fogey by any means

[Le Taz Hot]

40. They played this version

on one of the episodes of "Sons of Anarchy." I LOVED it!

[wysimdnwyg]

48. That is one of the most beautiful songs of all time

I don't care who else does this song. I don't care what new songs are written. This will always be among the best. I've heard some great renditions of "Hallelujah", but none come close to Buckley's.

[a la izquierda]

169. My favorite song of all time.

I was devastated when he died.

[geckosfeet]

33. Legitimate point and opinion.

I am not a Beyonce fan by any stretch, but I think the halftime venue is one of the few where a show like that makes sense. Putting a single performer or band up on a stage during halftime just doesn't cut it. Acoustics and crowd noise make it difficult to enjoy. Cheer leading and pyrotechnics somehow seem more appropriate for the venue.

Now, since I did not watch the show except for about 20 seconds of online video and do not even really know who Beyonce is I don't qualified to comment on her performance per say. I have no idea how it stacks up against her more typical shows.

However, being an old fart myself I am a big fan of more traditional rhythm and blues.

[hurple]

34. I can't believe I am saying this...

But, this is a political forum, and not the place for arguments about entertainment. Please take it to the appropriate place.

LMAO!

[Le Taz Hot]

36. I'm a GD Host

LMAO!

[muriel_volestrangler]

82. Don't laugh - lock it

By your own admission, this breaks the GD SoP.

[Le Taz Hot]

86. If you'd been privy to Skinner's

latest announcements to the Hosts, you would know that GD is now a pretty wide open forum.

[RevStPatrick]

43. Joan Baez? Sorry... but... FAIL!!!

Joan's voice is all warbly, and there's some frequency in it that always makes me wince. Not in the same league, as a singer, as those others.

[Le Taz Hot]

46. Joan was gifted

with a natural vibrato, that's that "warbly" thing you hear. And just because she has "some frequency" that makes you wince, does not diminish her perfectly legitimate talent. But then again, to each his/her own.

Peace,

LTH

[Orrex]

55. So... wait a minute

When someone doesn't like your cherished singer, it's "to each his/her own," but when you don't like a singer, then that singer is not a real singer.

Got it.

[Le Taz Hot]

58. Now you got it!

[RevStPatrick]

93. There's vibrato, and then there's warbly...

I grew up in the folk-music world, and Joan was the only one I could never listen to.
I've even seen her in concert 2 or 3 times.

Oh well, whaddya gonna do?

[Le Taz Hot]

95. So, I'm curious,

if Joan Baez sounds warbly to you, how does Buffy St. Marie sound? I always loved her songs but she was kind of hard to listen to sometimes.

[RevStPatrick]

101. Yeah, Buffy's pretty warbly too...

But there's some frequency in Joan's voice that is grating.
I've talked to other people who have noticed this as well.
Someone else who suffers from this is Celine Dion.

[Chorophyll]

45. These are examples of singers *you* like.

Here are some singers *I* like: Beth Gibbons, Kate Bush, Bjork, Florence Welch, Patti Smith and even Courtney freaking Love.

It's great that we can all have our own individual taste and not bash each other for it, huh?

[PeaceNikki]

49. Laura Branigan was a no-talent hack!!!

[Le Taz Hot]

51. Interesting.

You would have been beside yourself if I would have posted the same about Beyonce. There's a word for that.

[PeaceNikki]

54. I'm sorry you didn't get the joke. It's cool. Others will.

It's a reference to a very very old flamewar on DU when she passed.

[Le Taz Hot]

73. Flame wars bore me.

Well, except this one of course, which was wholly unexpected given the time of the OP but other than that, I don't engage.

[muriel_volestrangler]

90. Bollocks. You started this flame war. With glee.

And you put it in GD precisely because you wanted a flame war, rather than a discussion of singing merit. You've got exactly what you wanted.

[Le Taz Hot]

94. I'll admit I got a lot more than I bargained for.

Not the least of which is the gaining of much insight.

[PeaceNikki]

171. She's dead. Welcome to DU!

Can't imagine you will last long.

[Egalitarian Thug]

52. And they can do it all live and without a studio or auto-tune. n/t

[Le Taz Hot]

53. Which, of course,

was my point. Thanks for getting it.

[Egalitarian Thug]

57. I had no idea that it was so pervasive that people no longer could distinguish between

the two, or believe that there is no difference.

[Le Taz Hot]

61. Not long ago

I saw an advertisement for an event that stated, "Live Music!" What they meant was "Live DJ" (as opposed to a dead one, I suppose.) because there were no actual performers. So, somewhere along the line, "live music" has come to mean "live DJ."

[Egalitarian Thug]

100. More degradation of everything. Being a DJ is a talent of sorts and is entertainment, but the fact

they are equated with the person who spends a lifetime perfecting their craft is just so sad. Can you imagine a DJ taking lessons for years and practicing 4 - 8 hours a day, every day, constantly striving to be a better DJ?

[OriginalGeek]

129. Wellll, they do say it's tricky to rock a rhyme

to rock a rhyme that's right on time.



It's tricky.

[OriginalGeek]

157. If I could walk THAT way

I'd never have to leave the house!

[JaneyVee]

59. Good songs, but the half-time show is supposed to be an upbeat spectacle

hence the modest name SUPERBOWL.

[Renew Deal]

60. When I was a kid, we walked to school in the snow

[Le Taz Hot]

64. Please see post 22

[Renew Deal]

66. "Get off my lawn references"

I have no idea how old you are, but this post comes off as "you kids don't know anything." That's probably why you're getting some of the replies you're getting.

[Le Taz Hot]

72. Once again,

never did I say "you kids don't know anything." I've got to say, this has been a FASCINATING study on how people can read into a simple, straightforward post and read so many things into it that don't actually exist. Fascinating.

[liberal_at_heart]

69. some of my favorite voices are Jill Scott, Lauryn Hill, Luciano Pavarotti, Placido Domingo, and

Andre Bocelli. But I also like voices like Christina Aguilera, Mariah Carey, Adele, Harry Connick Jr., Michael Buble, and Beyonce. There is room for everybody.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

70. I love K D Lang. What happened to her? Never see her anymore.

[Scout]

131. she still tours ... saw her a couple years ago

she opened for Lyle Lovett, and then last August saw her at the Sound Stage at Motor City Casino in Detroit.

her voice is still incredible.

[loudsue]

74. Wow! Thanks for those!

Made me very emotional.

[FiggyJay]

75. It's so nice

to see a thread about something other than politics. I still enjoy listening to Leontyne Price and Richard Tucker, so I guess that makes me the oldest of the fogeys.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

76. For me it will always be the one they called "The Divine One" or "Sassy"

Last edited Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:05 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm talking about the incomparable Sarah Vaughan who used her voice like a fine musical instrument and who in fact was an accomplished jazz and classical pianist besides. Sarah Vaughan's incredible range and emotive power, the clarity, precision and strength of her voice, and that slight touch of huskiness makes her the greatest for me, even greater than the great Ella Fitzgerald. She was a very sexy black woman in her youth but that’s not why people remember her with utmost reverence throughout the world.

Time will tell if Beyonce is remembered or leaves a legacy. I’m not a big fan but I know it’s a matter of taste. I don’t direct even the slightest criticism towards her for the way she flaunts her sexiness or the way she dresses. I only would note that it might detract from the listener’s focus on her art. Sexy black female pop singers have been around a long time. The absolutely gorgeous and sexy Millie Small, a 1960s pop singer is wearing a completely skintight body suit in this early video that leaves almost nothing to the imagination. My Boy Lollipop by the beautiful Jamaican singer became the first mega hit record in the "Ska" style. But while she was a pop sensation in her time, few people now remember Millie Small; her voice and her material just didn’t stand the test of time, whereas Sarah Vaughan will live on forever.

[liberal_at_heart]

78. Beyonce fans will remember her for her voice and maybe her body too

When people talk about Tina Turner they talk about two things: her great voice and her great legs. It does not diminish her legacy and Beyonce's legs won't diminish hers either. Beyonce is a good role model for both talent and body image. In a time when women who dare to weigh over 100 lbs are told they are fat, Beyonce is proud of her curves. Our young girls need to see women being proud of their bodies.

[Le Taz Hot]

84. OK, now, see?

THIS is why it was almost impossible to list only 4 that I literally picked 4 at random. Sarah Vaughn! (Swoon!) I always thought she had a male equal in Billy Eckstien. It's that sort of deep, resonant, "velvet" quality that is oh so rare. If you listen, you'll hear it in the Rene Fleming example I gave as well. Another performer with a unique voice and INCREDIBLE piano skills was Nina Simone. If you've never heard her rendition of "Little Girl Blue" you must. It's simply amazing. While singing the melody for "Little Girl Blue" her piano is playing "Good King Wenceslaus."

[noiretextatique]

150. sassy

had the most awesome instrument! love her voice. i like Beyonce too

[rhett o rick]

79. I think the ruling class like to keep the masses entertained (distracted) with circuses,

extravaganzas, and shiny objects.

[yourout]

80. I will add a few.

[bigwillq]

81. For being liberals, we're all pretty judgemental when it comes to art.

What is a "real" singer, exactly?

[ScreamingMeemie]

83. Thank you, thank you, thank you--always the voice of reason.

As near as I can tell, for some "real" means they aren't popular with the majority (I mean, really, Mr. MusicSnob DUer practically discovered them), they've sold less than 99 records (preferably hand-burned off their PC), and/or they're hip mainstream (using their somewhat popular status to make political statements).

Or, they recently died (See Michael Jackson--previous butt of jokes, now elevated to God-like status).

Anyway, that's what I'm walking away from these conversations with.

[bigwillq]

88. Art is subjective, I get it

but that doesn't mean someone I like isn't a real singer or a real artist. We all have different tastes, but art is art. Let's embrace it, not criticize it.
If this all goes back to Beyonce, I will admit I am not her biggest fan, but the girl can sing, she is talented, even if she isn't everyone's cup of tea.

[liberal_at_heart]

85. +1

Music is subjective. Why would anybody tell anybody else who is a real singer?

[Le Taz Hot]

98. I'd LOVE to answer that.

Someone who has enough respect for their art that they've actually studied. Have developed vocal and breathing techniques via tireless rehearsals from experienced professionals. They invest literally thousands of hours practicing, expanding their repertoire and their instrument. The "artists" I have in mind have spent virtually NO time in any of these endeavors. They learn how to "perform" and anyone who has studied will tell you that the performance part of the art comes AFTER you learn your craft. That is what I mean when I say "real singer."

[onenote]

102. To put this in some context, could you give an example of someone you think isn't a "real singer"?

[Le Taz Hot]

107. Brittany Spears.

Highly popular, has more money than any one of us will every have, sold out concerts, can't sing a lick.

[tuvor]

108. You're saying Beyonce's done none of that? She's hardly a slacker. n/t

[Le Taz Hot]

109. For the 400th time,

I said nothing about Beyonce.

[tuvor]

134. You'll have to forgive me.

When I saw that she wasn't in your list of "real" singers, and read about "talent being replaced by cheer-leading dance moves and pyrotechnics" right after the Superbowl, it seemed apparent to me that you were referring at least partly to her.

[MuseRider]

115. I just spent 30 minutes

typing a reply to you saying much the same thing sitting in my practice room listening to a Menotti I am not terribly fond of but must learn and I dropped my phone and lost my post somewhere .

I have no problem with these performers calling themselves performers but until they can sit down and prove their vocal creds, no manipulation or acrobatics, and sing something and actually HOLD a pitch I will shiver when they win awards as musicians.

I was in rehearsal working a Brahms symphony the night of the Super Bowl but saw all the reaction. I have spent much of my life either in a practice room alone, in a rehearsal hall with others or on stage performing. I make pennies for every hour I spend. I am proud to be a professional musician in a somewhat smallish venue. Who I see in popular culture now would rightly be called a performer. They are VERY good at that. Musician? That I need more proof of before I would ever consider them that.

[SWTORFanatic]

91. I'm going to say sorry, but I don't like your taste in music or singers - but FWIW I don't

like Beyonce either. I also did not watch the SB.

[Bonobo]

97. Shina Ringo from Japan. Also Ego-Wrappin'

[Fresh_Start]

104. Thank you. I enjoyed your selections

I hadn't heard Aretha's Nessum Dorma...it was wonderful.
not taking sides in the music wars on DU.

[lunasun]

111. "cheer-leading dance moves and pyrotechnics at the Super Bowl"?? Horrors!!! TEOTWAWKI

The original 1/2 time was marching bands !!!
Perhaps your calendar was off a week and you thought the SB was the Grammy!

I can imagine how past SB 1/2 times have upset you too with all the hoohah
Black EPs with 100s of people on stage and the lighting on their clothes as if that is entertainment huh??
Fergie with a skirt up to there -why?
Really who wants to hear Slash and Usher munching on chips and downing beer when you could just put on a Renee Fleming or Edith Piaf recording between the game halfs??
Madonna with circus acts in drag , cheeleading her own name,LMFAO( have you heard thatSexyy stuff !) and NMinaj giving the finger to the camera and say S**t
Is that entertainment???
JJ/JTboobflash Kid Rock with the big flag after 911, all that crazy stuff you have posted about after every SB!!

The SB 'Trifecta' and a stage with only women (manyof color) being assertive and singing about being an Independent Women doesnt bother me

I enjoy all the entertainment for what it is > Halftime at SB
Oh and I know you never said this was about the Super Bowl but I did nah nah nah nah

If I wanted the watch you're wearin', I'll buy it
The house I live in, I've bought it
The car I'm driving, I've bought it
I depend on me, I depend on me

All the women who are independent
Throw your hands up at me
All the honey's who makin' money
Throw your hands up at me

[Le Taz Hot]

113. Again, no mention of the superbowl.

Having said that, I must be off now. Discuss or let it die. It's your choice.

[liberal_at_heart]

114. Independent Women-Destiny's Child

That is a powerful song. I love that song. Thank you for posting some of the lyrics.

[we can do it]

116. If I hear "Hallelujah" one more time I am going to puke. Who's doing it next? Miss Piggy?

K.D. Lang is a huge talent, but spare me the cliche song.

Oh and btw, Beyounce is a great singer, as well as others who might not be your favorite.

[Warren DeMontague]

117. NO SHIT.

Great song which pretty much jumped the shark when it was included in the "Shrek" soundtrack.

Now it's been beaten to fucking DEATH.

[Apophis]

118. It comes down to personal taste.

Just because you don't find someone talented doesn't mean everyone will agree with you.

By the way, I don't care for most of the people you posted, but it doesn't mean I don't find them talented. Beyonce is talented, whether you like her or not.

[Warren DeMontague]

120. So is this.

"How painful it must be, to bruise so easily"

Um, "Good Advices", as it were.

[Arugula Latte]

126. Arguing over music is useless. It's all subjective.

I like all sorts of music from 60s to contemporary alt rock. I'm not usually that into slick-pop like Beyonce sings but I think it was entirely appropriate for a spectacle like the Super Bowl. You need to "Go Big" and she sure did.

[LadyHawkAZ]

127. When I was about 12,

I was *very into* one and only one style of music, and wouldn't even consider any other style as worth listening to.

My brother told me I was childish and close-minded. After that I snapped out of it.

There are talented musicians in every style of music. Why do people treat this like it's an either/or? If we like Beyonce we''re somehow disrespecting Aretha? WTF?

Oh yeah, and get the F off my lawn.

[backscatter712]

130. Are people still arguing over Beyonce?

I think you might have mistaken me for someone that gives a shit.

[Tikki]

132. In another ear...this...

Tikki

[Manifestor_of_Light]

133. A better than Pavarotti version of Nessun dorma.

Pavarotti was a great tenor in the 1970s, but after he went pop, he had no subtlety in his dynamics and just blasted. I don't like KD Lang or that song she's singing.

James McCracken was an Irish tenor with a 52" chest, former boxer, and handsome too. Notice that he starts out softly and finishes loudly (fortissimo). I was lucky enough to see him in I Pagliacci in about 1971

- Nessun Dorma

The best version of the Pearl Fishers Duet by Bizet- Barry Mcdaniel(baritone) and Alfredo Kraus (the tenor-short guy). Two fishermen have a crush on the same priestess at the temple of Brahma. They fight in the middle(chord of doom at 5:23), and then decide they will be friends until death.
Kraus's French is absolutely perfect:

Another great version of the Pearl Fishers duet--Robert Merrill & Jussi Bjorling. They synchronized their vibrato!!:

Andrea Bocelli doesn;t have the chops for opera.

Alfredo Kraus singing Una furtiva lagrima (A furtive tear) from The Elixir of Love. He was 63 when he made this recording. A true great lyric tenor.
Extraordinary subtlety and control.

Franco Corelli singing Core 'Ngrato (Ungrateful Heart):

anything else ya wanna know????

[Le Taz Hot]

144. Ah, someone who knows music.

You are a rarity, sir/madam. Thanks for your wonderful examples. I've not seen any of these tapes. The only reason I mentioned Pavarotti was the Aretha Franklin reference. And Andrea Bocelli! Worst. Tenor. Ever. Equating Andrea Bocelli with opera is like equating Kenny G with jazz.

And Core 'Ngrato -- easily my favorite tenor solo of all time. Goddess, there's nothing like listening to TRAINED voices. Two seconds of listening and you know. It's why I never understood the question, "How can you tell whether or not someone is trained?" My answer is always, "How can you NOT?"

[JI7]

138. can we all at least agree that Kesha sucks

[lillypaddle]

140. oh c'mon ...

you're comparing THAT to "Put a ring on it"?

Actually, I think Beyonce has a beautiful voice, but you're right, nothing or noone can beat those women you listed above. I'd like to add Annie Lennox to the mix.

Thanks.

[Lizzie Poppet]

142. A few of my own favorite examples (old and new):

Freddy Mercury (Queen) - "Somebody to Love"

Lisa Gerrard - "Sanvean (I Am Your Shadow)"

Rose Z Vine (Among the Weeds) - "Frail"

Dmitri Hvorostovsky - "Dark Eyes"

Maybe I'll do guitarists next...

[otohara]

145. Oldies But Goodies

Long, long ago when I was a media buyer for a chain of record stores, a sales rep from the local oldies station came in and told why the oldies station had such high numbers in middle-aged men..

He said, "it takes them back to a time when they had no problems, no alimony, no child support." - which I took as a clue to never date any middle aged guys...especially if they were married with kids at one point.

Maybe you are an old fart - I'm an old fart too, but I tire of listening to old music. I seek out new music, artists and always
look forward to new stuff by older artists. K.D. Lang took a turn to country, so if she had a new release that was country, I'd have to pass. I never was a fan of Joan Baez, but loved Joni Mitchell, Joan Armatrading. Couldn't stand Stevie Nicks back in the day when she ruled. Every year for about a decade, she was chosen by Rolling Stone readers as the best female vocalist, when there were many other talented female artists. I liked Christine McVee better of the Fleetwood Mac girls.

Beyonce, don't listen to her on my Rhapsody acct, but I do listen to Lady Gaga and love Pink. I like Beyonce's video's especially the technical backgrounds, she and Rhianna are breaking new ground in this new LED technology.

I like watching any live music in my old age, even if it's on TV or YouTube. I still go to concerts once in a while, this past 4th of July, I saw Squeeze and The B-52's and recently saw Young The Giant and my son's band mates which is electric jam and quite rhythmic and hypnotic.

We all have our favorites.

Can't wait for The Grammys this Sunday - more live music - I'm a huge fan of The Lumineers, fun., Florence & The Machine, Goyte, and others.

[farminator3000]

146. Ruth Ungar and Alison Krauss and Kendra Smith

Ruth Ungar-
http://109.206.179.92/movie/3_WaiosGBis/cpage/111

Alsion Krauss + Robert Plant-

i met those ^^^ 2 before they were famous! such lovely ladies!!! (Plant is a man...we think)

Kendra Smith-

[liberal_at_heart]

162. I love Alison Krauss!

beautiful voice!

[farminator3000]

166. i met her when she was 19 years old...

she was kinda shy...helluva fiddler, too. both Ruthy and AK are great fiddlers.


i sat like 5 feet away from her!

[noiretextatique]

147. everyone has different tastes and opinions

none, including yours, are superior.

[countryjake]

149. From one old fogey to another...

I could give you Mary Hopkin singing (and playing) "Turn Turn Turn", asking you to listen to the words of that song, and then ponder that, yes, the times, they are a changin', but everyone gets their turn, don't we?

I'll not begrudge Beyonce her ability to perform nor condemn those who enjoyed what she had to offer, especially, and I do mean especially, when I consider the venue that we're all huffing and puffing about.

A friggin' Super Bowl halftime show? Not something to argue over or even get steamed about, in the grand scheme of things, is it? We could compare favorite female singers til we're all blue in the face, reckon the degrees of talent and musical ability of women clear back to the 19th Century if we felt like it, but that ain't gonna change who the NFL chooses to hire for their big super spectacular sunday shebang, will it?

Peace.

[Marrah_G]

152. People like different kinds of art.

That is sort of the point of art.

Can't say as I am a big fan of any of the performers you listed. I don't dislike them, but I probably wouldn't put them on my play list. I also understand that many people DO think they are amazing and that they are talented performers in their genre.

Movie snobs, art snobs, music snobs, food snobs... it's all the about the same thing, the desire to control others.

[Dollface]

154. There are so many great links in thread. Best music arguments ever.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

155. I'm also becoming a fan of the French black opera star Magali Leger

She's so beautiful, classy, charming, elegant, and talented.

[Zax2me]

158. After viewing these artists - I'm more glad than ever Beyonce did the halftime show!

Joan Baez - KD Lang?
This does not keep peoples attention during a 2013 Super Bowl.
Would have sent me to the Puppy Bowl quicker than you can say where is the remote.

[Logical]

163. Yes, some people are to shallow to recognize talent! n-t

[RedCappedBandit]

164. Amazing that even such a political forum as DU

can be so easily distracted by entertainment.

[donheld]

167. Just because you're old doesn't mean you can't appreciate new music.

It also doesn't mean you have to dog musicians and singers just coming up. I just, for the first time, watched Beyonce's Superbowl performance. I don't see what the fuss is about. We all have our favorites no need to dis someone else's.