As a general rule, I don't believe that gun owners are mentally troubled, but when there are signs..

[Baitball Blogger]

This had to do with the the guy in Alabama who killed a school bus driver to drag a kid off the bus and take him to an underground bunker, where he's in day five of a stand-off.

Alabama bunker standoff leaves a town baffled
Jimmy Lee Dykes, who police say shot a bus driver and took a 5-year-old boy into a bunker, has aired no specific grievance. As they wait for a resolution, neighbors struggle to understand

<snip>

People who know Dykes describe him as an odd and menacing presence in the neighborhood — digging strange holes in his yard, beating dogs — but they had no answers as to his motives.

"We call him Mean Man," said Ronda Wilbur, who lives across the street from Dykes. "He killed my dog with a lead pipe."

She said Dykes' troubles in the neighborhood started as soon as he arrived in his travel trailer several years ago. He removed another neighbor's mailbox, she said, and replaced it with his own. By day he would sit in a deer-hunting stand overlooking the road, glaring at children and intimidating parents.

Wilbur said her husband once had words with Dykes. "He told my husband he wouldn't just K-I-L-L the D-O-G-S," she said. She spelled words, because her 7-year-old granddaughter, Ava, clung to her legs. "He would do the P-E-O-P-L-E too, especially the K-I-D-S."
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/la-na-alabama-bunker-20130203,0,2378554.story

[Tuesday Afternoon]

3. .

[nick of time]

2. All the signs of mental defect were there

and yet, it seems as if nothing was done about it. This guy should have had his firearms taken away and then he should have had a psychological evaluation done.
Maybe, just maybe this wouldn't have happeded if this had been done.

[Baitball Blogger]

4. It's grueling to know that the fate of a five year old boy is still

undetermined.

[godai]

5. So, are we supposed to arm all school bus drivers now?

More guns as the answer is insanity.

[Baitball Blogger]

6. You're taking this thread on a tangent.

We're talking about variables that are in our control today.

I wonder if this same behavior was noted in another region of the country, if it would have been tolerated.

[TheKentuckian]

20. Maybe try locking up bloody dog killers that threaten random neighbors and kids?

[Baitball Blogger]

24. I had quite a few questions that popped up when I read that.

If that is all I knew about the issue, these are the questions I would ask:

Was the dog on his property? If yes, the benefit of the doubt goes to the owner of the property. Was it a dog that appeared menacing? If it turns out it was a chihuahua, then it opens the door to question whether lethal force was necessary.

As with everything, standards need to be developed so people understand the benchmarks before these things come up.

[AndyA]

7. Sounds like the guy should have been in jail.

If he did indeed beat a dog to death with a lead pipe, then threaten to kill dogs, people, and especially the kids, he should have been in jail.

People who abuse animals are the lowest of the low, and usually graduate to abusing people as well as animals. That guy should have been in jail instead of hanging out in his deer hunting stand waiting for the opportunity to kill someone and then kidnap a kid. I hope that kid will be OK, considering this guy's abusive history, I fear the kid is also being abused.

[Baitball Blogger]

8. The guestion I have is, what system does Alabama have in place to protect

people who present this kind of threat to their neighborhood?

[Bay Boy]

25. Probably none, but...

....they seem to be handling this properly now, at least.
They haven't tried to 'storm trooper' their way in. I think we all know how that would turn out.

[Denninmi]

9. I don't think it's fair to extrapolate to all gun owners.

I see these blanket, broad brush statements that say anyone with a gun has a mental problem, and that is just as irresponsible as some of the statements coming from the pro-gun side.

Clearly, this guy does have issues, and is a good example of someone who shouldn't have guns a AFTER due process.

[Baitball Blogger]

10. Good point Denninmi.

Right now, I'm concerned about removing the gun from the individual, because of its lethal consequences. He killed a school bus driver, so I don't have to argue that point.

However, because of the fierce opposition from gun owners, I don't see them making it easy for us to do the obvious, immediate response, which is to remove the gun. And I don't see someone who has a mental problem, as this guy had, allowing it to happen easily. So, what do you propose should be the first step in protecting the neighborhood from the threat?

[Squinch]

11. This is why I am always shocked when someone who actually IS a responsible gun owner is not among

the loudest voices calling for gun control.

To them I say: You can't reasonably want to maintain an environment where guys who pull shit like this have the exact same gun rights as you.

[Duckhunter935]

13. All of them I see here are

They just do not want feel good legislation and if it is not the same as you want they are for no gun control measures.

[Squinch]

31. Do you know what I want?

[Baitball Blogger]

14. I think with this guy in Alabama, we have a real issue to use to present to gun owners and

ask that very question.

I have never seen a situation which is so apparent that it defies understanding why something wasn't done sooner. Though, exactly what that might be is something that I don't have the background to say. What comes first? Does this require a police action? A medical one, similar to Baker Acting? Or is it a combination of the two?

[Bay Boy]

28. The problem as I see it is...

...when does a person cross the line? Obviously when this guy was talking about killing kids he had crossed the line but what words or actions happened prior to that? Does a person acting 'eccentric' cross the line?

[etherealtruth]

12. Human beings are fragile creatures

Clearly, this man was extremely disturbed (I can't profess to have any clue as to the how's and whys) for some time.

Can any human being ever guarantee that they (or someone in their home) will always have the firmest grip on reality? reason ? ... be able to avoid any psychological disturbance ... be free of any disease process that could potentially disrupt thinking?

This is a guarantee that no-one can ever make.

[Baitball Blogger]

15. I think all of us, if we live long enough, will experience some kind of mental issues.

Look at it this way: If you're paying attention to what's happening in the world around you and you don't go a little crazy with grief, then you must be a sociopath. A little grim humor.

[ananda]

16. I do not think that all gun owners are mentally disturbed or ill.

However, I do think that many are overwhelmed by huge fear, often misplaced... and that this can lead to more serious mental issues along the road... especially with medication which often exacerbates violent and suicidal tendencies.

[Baitball Blogger]

17. It's going to be a difficult situation to sort out, given the fierce opposition from the gun lobby.

I suspect we are about to see this turn into a public interest situation. What is in the public's best interest?

[Recursion]

18. Unfortunately "odd and menacing presence" is not in DSM-IV or V

Clearly this guy shouldn't have a gun; I have trouble thinking of a way to keep him from getting one in the first place or taking it from him now that he has it. Should neighbors get a vote on who gets to have a gun? That's actually an interesting idea, but then I think of the nosy jerks in the HOA's I've dealt with in the past.

[Baitball Blogger]

21. I have no confidence in HOA boards.

If my experience serves as an example, they would allow to the cliques to own guns, and ensure that everybody else is denied the right.

[Recursion]

22. Right; that's what I'm thinking of.

Or "he seems crazy" by which we mean "that's the only minority family in the neighborhood".

I'm not trying to Debbie Downer this, it's just kind of the one big problem: how do you consistently define "people who shouldn't have a gun"?

[Baitball Blogger]

23. I'm with you.

First, how do we define a threat to a neighborhood? If someone has a lethal weapon and threatens to kill dogs and kids, does that cross the line?

And once the threat has been identified, what process do we use to resolve the issue?

I don't have all the answers. Just a lot of questions.

[Bay Boy]

26. Certainly when a person makes an unveiled threat

against a child they have crossed the line and should be punished.
The same threat against a pet could get the response "the dog would come in my yard and growl at me".

[Baitball Blogger]

27. That's my general feeling.

[Recursion]

29. He broke the law with that threat

But we don't have the police, court, and social work resources to respond. I wish I had a good idea.

[Baitball Blogger]

30. I think your answer is the quandry we're facing.

Until we establish national policy on an issue of this magnitude, the resources just don't appear at the state level.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

19. Ms Wilbur spelled out K-I-L-L and K-I-D-S so the 7y.o. wouldn't understand?

That strategy might work with a five-year-old. Maybe.

[ecstatic]

32. Good catch. Many kids read by 3 or 4 nt