So the new immigration bill would increase visas for high tech jobs. How will this help us again?

[still_one]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/01/28/immigration-overseas/1871343/

[MrSlayer]

1. It's not about helping us.

It's about helping the scumbag corporations pay less in salary and benefits to foreigners instead of having to take care of Americans. Everyfuckingthing is about that. Everything.

This country blows anymore.

[still_one]

2. very sad

[Demo_Chris]

4. Yep

[msongs]

11. sorry, not corporations introducing this bill. it's dems and repubs in congress nt

[MrSlayer]

12. Correct. On whose behalf do you suppose this little provision was introduced??

I'll give you a hint. It's not the American worker.

[Skittles]

13. who exactly do you think they work for?

stop being naive

[Union Scribe]

14. That's adorable. nt

[HiPointDem]

18. the dems and pubs are bribed to introduce it. yes, bribed, because our system is one of legal

bribery. the corporations write the bills, the legislators sign them and take their graft.

that's our democratic system.

legislators now pay for committee appointments.

it's a sewer.

[KansDem]

53. "...the corporations write the bills, the legislators sign them..."

Yeah...I wish I was paid six-digits plus "bonuses" for my signature.

[OhioChick]

50. Dems and Repubs bowing to their corporate overlords n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

56. Naive much? n/t

[Gin]

28. I agree....worked for EDS a few years ago

And they were required to post a notice on a bulletin board......located in an out of the way place.......nobody ever read.....about recruiting these people.....and the salary range started at 30 k.

It's all about money....there is no shortage of qualified US citizens.

[redqueen]

47. This. nt

[Blue_Tires]

69. thanks for saving me the typing n/t

[DearHeart]

73. BINGO! Foreigners are paid way less and corporations make billions!

Everything is about the ALMIGHT DOLLAR! I would love to be well off, but not at the expense of other people!

[limpyhobbler]

78. [phone]

Everyfuckingthing is about that. Everything.

This is maybe the most insightful comment ever made on this website.

[gateley]

85. It's always about the profits. Always.

When I find myself going "hey -- how come...." then it's "oh, yeah, the money" Shameful.

[liberal_at_heart]

90. you're absolutely right

Everything is about helping corporations make more profits. There is nothing it has not touched anymore. Even education is being privativzed now. Nothing is sacred. It is all profit. All of it.

[kestrel91316]

3. It will help corporations make even MORE profits, which they will

then stash in overseas bank accounts to avoid paying taxes.

That helps us all. Can't you see???

[DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav]

5. It will help us by providing more low income service jobs for Americans.

The visa holders are going to have to pay to eat (think Walmart and Papa Johns) somewhere. It'll also be saving corporations millions, and we all know corporations are people too. Uggggg!

No worries it'll trickle down.

[JDPriestly]

6. I want to see the undocumented workers get help, but I absolutely do not want to see

people who come from other countries to attend our schools given permits to stay here. Nor do I want to see special visas for high tech jobs. Train Americans. Educate Americans.

Americans can't work for less because our education is too expensive. That's what needs to be fixed, not the visa system for educated workers.

We don't have enough jobs. Why would we bring in more people to take the too few jobs we have. That makes no sense at all.

No wonder Obama sounded so nervous and sad when he gave the speech today. I couldn't hear the entire speech, butI heard his voice. He did not sound convinced of the merits of his own proposals -- assuming they really are his proposals.

[still_one]

7. I agree with you, my disappointment was the high tech job visa

[amandabeech]

41. I would like to see e-verify become mandatory for 3-4 years

before we offer permanent residency to undocumented workers. In my home area, the largest employer simply will not hire anglos for any job other than the top two management positions. There are plenty of anglos in the area who either quit school at 16 or have their high school diploma and couldn't get jobs even when the employer was raided by ICE and lost maybe 1/3 of its workforce. The situation is causing some very serious social problems that won't stay unresolved forever.

I can't believe that my home area is the only place where this is happening.

Farmers can go back to using the existing regulations that grant seasonal labor visas.

Most of the undocumented newcomers are decent people, but there are many decent citizens who are qualified to work these jobs and who would take them in an instant.

[TheMastersNemesis]

8. It Is Like What I Posted In The Past ---- WAGE PARITY WITH THE THIRD WORLD

The Reagan Revolution and GOP has always been about "WAGE PARITY" with the third world. The American worker has been snookered since 1980. All the chatter about America from the GOP and Right Wing has been no more than chatter. It was meant to get people to accept their "service economy" wages.

Now they are undercutting the service economy as well. Why do you think they want massive deregulation that includes ENDING THE MINIMUM WAGE. Why do you think they are aggressively crushing public and private industry unions. The dirtiest little secret is that the GOP and big business no longer cares if Americans can afford anything.

CORPORATE CEOS HAVE SAID ASIA AND INDIA AND CHINA ARE THEIR NEW MARKET NOT THE U.S.A. They are focusing virtually ALL their investment in those areas.

I wish the workers in this country would get that. Even GOP workers are going to be tossed.

We had a major meeting of CEO's in Denver a few years ago where they discussed the transition. The new mantra for corporate CEOs is cost cutting and employee elimination NOT JOB CREATION.

I worked at DOL for 24 years and that strategy is ALL we saw since Reagan. Job elimination. But voters kept voting GOP. Bush negotiated NAFTA and corporate America convinced Clinton that it was good idea. Big business and the US Chamber of Commerce put billions behind the idea. They would have gotten NAFTA whether Clinton had passed it or not.

[woo me with science]

51. +100000 Thank you.

[KansDem]

54. Then what keeps them in the USA?

The dirtiest little secret is that the GOP and big business no longer cares if Americans can afford anything.

Access to the US military? They need US military might as "muscle" in their pursuit for world markets and resources?

[LibDemAlways]

9. Ask anyone in the high tech field if more

H-1B visas are needed, and you will get a resounding NO! There are well-qualified Americans unable to find work because so many of those jobs are already being taken by visa holders who will work for less. The President should find time in his schedule to talk with some of these unemployed people who are being discriminated against because they are US Citizens and want to be paid what they are worth. He'd hear an earful.

[still_one]

10. I know. I am a software engineer and I agree

[LibDemAlways]

35. My software engineer husband was laid off from

a major corporation back in 2010. After six months and plenty of job fairs where he saw busloads of H-1B visa holders showing up and being given on the spot interviews while he was turned away, he finally found a job through an acquaintance - at a 40% pay cut - with a government contractor who needed a US citizen for the job. The company knew they could get away with the crappy pay because it's a buyers market out there - thanks in no small part to the presence of the H-1B workers who are stealing jobs from Americans and depressing pay scales.

[still_one]

65. Sounds a lot like my situation. After 20 plus years they let us go. I too found a job, but took a

20% cut in salary

Still I consider myself fortunate

The interview process is grueling for software engineers at least here in California

Between the written technical tests, and interviews, if you are lucky enough to get an interview, you spend 4 to 6 hours in the interview, and some don't have the courtesy to get back to you saying you didn't get the job

A lot of things have changed from when I started out in this field, and one thing for sure, it isn't getting better

[LibDemAlways]

87. My husband was 59 when he was let go. The ageism he encountered

was bad enough, but he should not have had to complete against foreign visa holders for jobs he was well-qualified for. He was lucky to get the crappy job he has now. Retirement is not an option. We're putting a 19-year-old through a UC, and all the billing office cares about is that we make the quarterly tuition of over 4 grand - never mind housing and other expenses. It's a racket!

[still_one]

88. Appreciate and understand what you are going through

[hfojvt]

32. if the Americans are unemployed

then I don't understand why the Americans won't also "work for less".

[LibDemAlways]

34. Well, those jobs aren't being offered to Americans.

Cheap employers love cheap foreign labor.

[jeff47]

36. Because the Americans will have other options

Desperate American takes $30k/year job that used to be a $60k/year job.
Economy recovers - it will eventually happen even if Washington continues to fuck it up
American is able to find $60k/year job, immediately quits.

H1Bs are stuck with their sponsoring company. Citizens are free to move to another job. So companies don't want to massively underpay citizens.

[hfojvt]

45. but if they do not have other options now

they should logically be taking the options they have. If the economy recovers, then the American leaves to bigger and better things and is probably not gonna resent an H1-B person who takes that much lower paying job.

For myself, for the last 11 years since I got fired from an entry level sales job, this math major with an MA has been working as a janitor - often part time. Before that I worked 3 years as a factory temp. Before that I had my own non-profitable business for seven years while working 2nd jobs in factories and bars to support it.

So I have always been willing to jump to a 20K or 30K job that would utilize said worthless education.

[jeff47]

66. They don't have the option to get massively underpaid

because companies will not provide them with that option. They'd rather have the H1B leave on a schedule than deal with a citizen leaving with little notice.

[JDPriestly]

76. Employees won't just leave unless the pay in their job and/or the working conditions are

unacceptable.

Right now, jobs are too hard to get. People are sticking with jobs in which they are very unhappy. The percentage of Americans who are overqualified for their jobs is very high. We do not need people coming here on H1-B visas.

[jeff47]

82. FFS, try reading.

Right now, jobs are too hard to get. People are sticking with jobs in which they are very unhappy

And as I've now had to explain to you three times, that condition is TEMPORARY. As in "not the way it will always be".

And companies aren't so stupid that they think our current bad economy is permanent. Having an employee suddenly leave "whenever the economy turns around" is much more disruptive than a H1B employee who will leave on a schedule.

[JDPriestly]

89. But the interest in unemployed Americans in finding jobs should be more highly considered

than the desire of employers to hire H1-B employees who can be counted on to disappear on a schedule.

The interest of a company in hiring an H1-B employee is not to be as highly valued as the interest of an American citizen in finding a job, making a living and no longer depending on unemployment insurance, not losing his home and perhaps his family.

The interest of the company in the H1-B employee's reliable schedule is trivial compared to the interest of the American employee and compared to our national interest in reducing unemployment.

Basically, from your post, it appears that what employers really like about H1-B employees is their sort of indentured servant status. The H1-B has no rights. That's is what employers like about them. They aren't "uppity" like American workers.

Hire Americans or just stop doing business in the US. That's the choice that I would give the H1-B employers. And I would add, by the way, don't expect Americans to buy your products or services if you don't want to buy our labor.

[JDPriestly]

75. When there are or were plenty of jobs, H1-B visas were not such a controversial subject.

The problem now is that the competition for even low-paid jobs is horrible. This is, therefore, not the time to pass a law allowing more H1-B visas.

Most of us are willing to jump to a 20K or 30K job. For some, that would be a raise. For some, that would be a frightful insult.

But that has nothing to do with whether H1-B visas are fair to you and others who are underemployed in America. Companies that make huge profits should be willing to pay employees like you decent wages that compensate you for your level of ability. They should not be able to import workers from underdeveloped countries to compete with you for jobs for which you are qualified so that they, the companies, can make higher profits and pay their CEOs larger salaries. If you have talent and are an American citizen, you should have the priority when it comes to getting work.

Right now, we just don't need H1-B visas. We just don't need them. You don't need them either.

[GeorgeGist]

16. This will make the RICH us ...

Richer.

[Warren Stupidity]

17. So, only lower paid workers should lose jobs to immigrants?

Ok.

[HiPointDem]

19. as with everything, they start with those least able to defend themselves, with fewest allies,

& move up the food chain.

same as that niemoller quote. first they came for the textile workers, but i was not a textile worker, so...then they came for the meatpackers, but...then they came for the autoworkers, the air traffic controllers, the IT workers...

and then we all worked at mcdonalds.

[pampango]

20. All immigrants are either children, retired/disabled or working age adults. If they are working age,

the question becomes "What kind of job are they are they doing - farm work, computer programming, etc.

If we only admit immigrants who are children or retired/disabled adults, we will get howls of protest from many (particularly on the right) that we are overburdening our schools and government programs with 'unproductive' immigrants. If we admit working age adults, we will get howls from every group that thinks immigrants are a drag on their prospects in the career or occupation they work.

At the same time we get these howls from all directions over the nature of the immigrants we are proposing to admit to the country, everyone (particularly on the left but even the right feels compelled to support legal immigration) loves immigrants in theory. We cherish our immigrant history and culture and the diversity that it has produced.

But when the conversation shifts to the future of immigration (rather than the past), the story changes. It seems that each immigrant becomes a 'threat' either as a burden to society or as competition for jobs.

Of course, this has always been the American attitude towards immigration - anti-Catholic, anti-Irish, anti-Chinese, anti-Mexican through the ages. There has always been plenty of anti-immigrant sentiment but, fortunately for most of us, immigrants continued to come to the US and it turned out they were not the 'burden' (but rather an 'asset').

[jeff47]

21. H1Bs aren't immigrants

It's a temporary visa, good for at most 6 years. And that duration is highly dependent on the worker keeping the company happy.

If these workers were actual immigrants moving here forever, then it would be far less of a problem.

[pampango]

22. I knew that but it is an important distinction, so thanks for pointing it out.

The post I was responding to had strayed into the arena of immigrants, "only lower paid workers should lose jobs to immigrants?" rather than staying focused on temporary visa workers.

Those temporary work visas (whether they are H1B, high-skilled visas or those for agricultural workers that I believe are in the proposed immigration reform legislation, as well) are a different animal altogether from visas that allow people to immigrate permanently and legally. The latter have all the labor rights and protections that US-born citizens have so there is less potential for abuse by employers.

[Romulox]

26. Which is why you chose to change the subject, I guess.

[pampango]

38. From the poster I was responding to?

The post I responded to: "So, only lower paid workers should lose jobs to immigrants?" - Note the poster referred to immigrants not to those with temporary work visas.

If you're saying we shouldn't respond to a poster who strays from the OP, point taken.

[JDPriestly]

77. No. Not all immigrants should be low-paid workers.

But we should not purposely allow more high-paid workers to immigrate. That ruins the job market for Americans. That combined with outsourcing and producing goods overseas -- its a death sentence for our economy and a poverty sentence for working Americans.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

24. H-1Bs are non-immigrant visas that allow the holder to seek permanent residence

and in fact the great majority of H-1B holders end up becoming permanent residents and, after the required 5 years, U.S. citizens. I wish people would get more educated about H-1Bs and other non-immigrant visas before assuming things.

There are plenty of non-immigrant visas which allow the holder to seek permanent residence. These include (in addition to the H-1B) L-1As (intracompany transfer managers/executives), TN (NAFTA visas for Canadian and Mexican citizens), O (extraordinary ability), E (treaty trader/investor), etc.

H-1B workers can switch employers at any time as long as their future employer is willing to file a petition on their behalf. They can also switch to another visa classification as long as they meet the requirements. Like any other employee, the H-1B workers have to be held to the same performance standards. Yes, some workers don't cut it and they have to be terminated. Their visa status ends on the date of termination. Contrary to popular opinion, there is no grace period where an H-1B holder can remain in the U.S. to tie up affairs. S/he has to leave the U.S. immediately upon termination. The employer is required under H-1B rules to pay for the transportation back to the employee's country of origin or last residence, including transportation of household goods.

While the maximum amount in H-1B classification is 6 years, as long as the employee is at certain stages of the permanent residence process (which takes years), then there can be further 7th, 8th and 9th (and further) extensions of H-1B status - all of which are allowed.

The law also allows for H-1B portability which means that the employee can begin working for the new employer as soon as the change of employer petition has been received by USCIS, thus avoiding long waits or extra fees for expedited processing (known as premium processing).

[jeff47]

31. You speak of theory. Here's how it works in reality

Last edited Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:20 PM - Edit history (1)

H-1B workers can switch employers at any time as long as their future employer is willing to file a petition on their behalf.

Doesn't happen.

The point of H1B workers is they're cheap and can't resist when you treat them badly. So an "upity" H1B visa holder trying to leave his old employer isn't going to get the new employer to agree to take over.

Plus, the new employer is still limited by the old start date for the visa. Why take over a visa when you can import new?

I'm aware of this working once - the previous employer went bankrupt and the H1B was so desperate he was willing to be paid even worse.

Like any other employee, the H-1B workers have to be held to the same performance standards.

Except they don't. Those "performance standards" are arbitrarily applied with citizens. So what makes you think they'd be objective with H1Bs?

Oh, and while we're on the theory-vs-reality subject, you should also know that companies regularly lie about the job requirements, and then botch the job search so that they can "fail" to find citizens to do the work. I'm contacted regularly by companies seeking to underpay me in a city I don't live in and have never shown interest in moving to. They're using my rejection as proof that they can't find citizens to do the work.

They also frequently under-title the H1B employee to keep the costs even lower - the H1B is doing work of a "Software Engineer V" but is titled "Software Engineer III", and paid like it.

H1Bs are a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. We have plenty of qualified unemployed people in the US. Employers are looking for cheap labor that can be easily intimidated.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

46. Response - lengthy

First of all, I've been working in U.S. immigration law for more than 13 years. This is more than theory - it's plenty of practice, I assure you. This kind of stuff is what I do every day. I have worked in law firms and I have worked in corporate settings. I currently work in a corporate setting so I am well aware of corporate policies and hiring practices. I am the only person who oversees immigration for a large company with over 70,000 employees.

H-1B employees transfer to/from employers all the time. H-1B workers are not cheap. It is actually very expensive for any business to hire an H-1B worker. Legal fees alone are at least $2,500. Filing fees owed to the U.S. government are $2,325 for many employers (less for smaller employers - more for H-1B-dependent employers). So, we are talking about nearly $5,800 that an employer must pay to have an H-1B worker.

At all employers I have worked with or where I am currently working, we have several H-1B employees who have joined us and/or who have left us. No one has been treated 'badly.' Since we are heavily unionized, I'm sure such a grievance would have been heard loudly. I have also had to decline job offers in cases where our salary was below the prevailing wage and the department managers were not able to increase the compensation. I am an immigrant myself and I don't look kindly upon those who take advantage of foreign workers - legal or illegal. I certainly am not going to approve if an employer wants me to commit visa fraud and pay someone less than prevailing wage.

When you file a change of employer H-1B petition for an employee who already has an H-1B with a different employer, the start date will change. For example, Company A petitions for Employee X. Employee X has valid H-1B visa with Company B from 10/01/2010 to 09/30/2013. Company A indicates on the forms a start date of 3/3/2013 and an end date of 3/2/2016. The maximum allotted time in H-1B status is 6 years. Therefore, assuming Employee X's initial date in H-1B status is 10/01/2010, he has until 09/30/2016.

If USCIS approves the petition, then Employee X's validity dates for the H-1B visa will be 3/3/2013-3/2/2016. This is because H-1B visas are employer-dependent. Changing an employer means changing validity dates. Note that USCIS only determines whether a person qualifies for a visa and what the validity dates are according to the visa's parameters. However, the Dept. of State is the sole party that determines whether a person can enter the U.S. (if abroad) and/or receive the full term of the visa. For instance, nationals of China may get a shorter time from DOS, different than what USCIS has approved. This is why the I-94 arrival/departure card which is obtained upon entry to the U.S. is the true determinant of the validity dates, not the visa approval itself.

Also, it is important to note that Employee X is free to begin working with Company A as soon as USCIS receives the petition. Employee X does not have to wait for an approved petition before switching employers. This is known as 'portability.' If the petition were to be ultimately denied (USCIS hardly denies something outright, by the way), then the employee would have to be terminated immediately and Company A would have to pay for return transportation (as per H-1B rules).

Most new H-1B visas will be dependent on the cap set by Congress per fiscal year. FY 2014 begins October 1, 2013. The earliest anyone can file a petition with USCIS is 6 months prior to the start date.

This means anyone who wants to file for a new non-cap-exempt H-1B must do so no later than April 1, 2013. This year, April 1 falls on a Monday. Therefore, this year's deadline is March 29, 2013 (petitions must be postmarked by that date in order to be accepted by USCIS). The idea that it's simpler for an employer to get a new H-1B visa instead of filing a change of employer petition for a current H-1B visa holder is ridiculous. First off, there is the cap issue outlined above. Secondly, the costs are the same. There is no advantage to getting a new H-1B visa instead of filing on behalf of a current H-1B visa holder at all.

One of the biggest misconceptions and errors - also evident in the post above - is that there is a job search for H-1B visas. There is no such thing. Again, I repeat, there is no job ad placed for H-1B visas.

There's no requirement to conduct recruitment for H-1B visas. You are confusing it with the PERM process (also known as labor certification), which is what the infamous video from that law firm is discussing (by the way, most of the stuff they were talking about is now not allowed).

PERM is the first step for most employment-based visa holders who are seeking to become permanent residents of the U.S. (a/k/a 'green card' holders). PERM does not involve USCIS at all - in fact, it only involves the Department of Labor and the state's labor office branches. It includes recruitment provisions that, at a minimum, require a job to be posted in a large circulation newspaper on two consecutive Sundays, in addition to internal postings and a posting on the particular state's employment website.

PERM recruitment is heavily guided by DOL. There are very strict requirements on how the job ad must be written (for example, it cannot be tailored to the foreign national's credentials) and how the review of any resumes/applications received in connection with the recruitment activities must proceed. These are too long to get into and not pertinent to the subject of H-1B visas.

As for misusing job titles to circumvent the prevailing wage requirements of the H-1B, what you point out was a lot easier to do when DOL didn't issue its prevailing wage determination. In those days, unscrupulous employers could have certainly gotten off by doing just that (though that would have been stupid for a variety of reasons, too long to get into).

However, now the things are much different. The DOL reviews the job description and, based on that, provides a prevailing wage report. H-1B rules require that the employer pay at least the prevailing wage as determined by DOL or above.

For all companies I've had the pleasure of working or doing business with, performance standards are uniformly applied, regardless of citizenship or immigration status. Unless an employer wants to get an EEOC charge, it is in the company's best interest to conduct itself properly, ethically and legally. I have never had a situation where a company utilized different standards for visa holders when evaluating performance, raises, bonuses, demotions, terminations, etc.

Many companies that have international business relationships also employ people from all corners of the world and who may have held a visa at some point. In fact, most H-1B visa holders eventually become permanent residents of the U.S. Moreover, H-1B visa holders have to pay the same amount of taxes that all others do.

The only visa holders who are exempted from certain payroll taxes are F/M (students) and J (trainee/intern/au pair/researcher) aliens.

[MrYikes]

52. Thank you for your post.

I was not aware of many of your points.

[jeff47]

68. Your perspective is from an environment where people stay close to theory

For people to not face prosecution, they have to stay close to the theory of how H1Bs are supposed to work. But that doesn't mean once they leave your office that they remain close to the theory.

First of all, I've been working in U.S. immigration law for more than 13 years.

I've been a software developer for the past 16 years. I'm well aware of how companies are actually using H1B visa employees. They were my coworkers.

H-1B employees transfer to/from employers all the time.

Because they swing by your office when there is no transfer involved, so you've got a great metric of transfers-vs-not.

H-1B workers are not cheap. It is actually very expensive for any business to hire an H-1B worker. Legal fees alone are at least $2,500. Filing fees owed to the U.S. government are $2,325 for many employers (less for smaller employers - more for H-1B-dependent employers). So, we are talking about nearly $5,800 that an employer must pay to have an H-1B worker.

H1B Network Administrator: $30k.
Citizen Network Administrator: $50k.

Saving $14k for 6 years: $84,000. Yeah, that H1B employee is really expensive.

Since we are heavily unionized

Congrats. Your shop is exactly like ~1% of technology employers. Clearly that's an excellent model for declaring how H1Bs are really used and treated.

The idea that it's simpler for an employer to get a new H-1B visa instead of filing a change of employer petition for a current H-1B visa holder is ridiculous.

You just claimed that getting a new H1B is really, really expensive. So now you're claiming it's cheaper to go through that process MORE OFTEN because the 6 years expires earlier on transferred H1Bs.

One of the biggest misconceptions and errors - also evident in the post above - is that there is a job search for H-1B visas. There is no such thing. Again, I repeat, there is no job ad placed for H-1B visas.

Employers have to show that they can not find citizens to fill the position. They aren't searching for H1Bs at this point, they're "proving" that they need one.

And they do this by offering the position to citizens in such a way that the citizen is almost guaranteed to decline.

I live in NY. I get lots of unsolicited offers from jobs in MI, MD, CT and IL. From job placement companies that also advertise their H1B work. I have never expressed any desire to move to those states, much less indicated I'm looking for a job, yet they're asking me to interview? Makes absolutely no sense if you actually want to find someone to fill the position. But it makes perfect sense if you want to be turned down. And you can even add with "see, we even tried to get citizens from out-of-state!".

I've also been in interviews where it became abundantly clear the goal was not to hire me. For example, at one company, I amazed all but one of the interviewers. That one really didn't seem to care what I said, and blocked hiring me. Instead, the job was filled by an H1B employee placed by a friend of his who happened to run a company managing people with H1B visas. By rejecting me, he was able to justify hiring an H1B employee.

I made some complaints, which resulted in the guy being fired a little later for receiving bribes from his friend. I found that out when the other interviewers contacted me to see if I was still available (I wasn't - I had moved for another job by then).

As for misusing job titles to circumvent the prevailing wage requirements of the H-1B, what you point out was a lot easier to do when DOL didn't issue its prevailing wage determination. In those days, unscrupulous employers could have certainly gotten off by doing just that (though that would have been stupid for a variety of reasons, too long to get into).

However, now the things are much different. The DOL reviews the job description and, based on that, provides a prevailing wage report. H-1B rules require that the employer pay at least the prevailing wage as determined by DOL or above.

Because it's utterly impossible to submit a 'lowball' job description, and then assign more duties to the H1B employee once they are hired. "We only expected him to do that stuff, but he's so great we gave him more to do!"

For all companies I've had the pleasure of working or doing business with, performance standards are uniformly applied, regardless of citizenship or immigration status.

This is utterly impossible. "Are you good at what you do" is measured by your manager. In most IT fields, there are no objective metrics that can be used to measure that.

Lines of code doesn't tell you crap about what's in that code. Number of bugs fixed doesn't say anything abou the complexity of those bugs. Feet of wire run or computers configured are again, useless to determine how "good" an employee is.

Thus an employee's "performance metric" in IT is a subjective measure assigned by the manager.

But I do have to say I was impressed by the large amount of chaff you included in your post.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

74. A couple of responses

First of all, in my position I am responsible for knowing where anyone who possesses a visa for which the company serves as the petitioner is, is going or not going. Everything that is signed under the company's name is signed under penalty of perjury. I take that responsibility seriously and I do not tolerate any fraud or misrepresentation. So, yes, I do know the comings and goings of all these employees. I know how much they earn, when their visas run out, what their job offer letter looks like, what their qualifications are, etc. I also have access to payroll so I can check at any time to ensure they are indeed paid properly.

If an H-1B systems administrator is paid $30K, then - unless the employer is committing fraud - that wage will be at least equal to the prevailing wage. The DOL determines that wage - not the employer or an attorney or anyone like me. The prevailing wage is widely accessible to anyone online. If a person believes the prevailing wage determined by DOL is bunk, then DOL needs to be contacted and complaints need to be directed at them, not the foreign national or the H-1B visa or USCIS or the employer.

Again, there is no advertising in connection with the H-1B if the employer is not H-1B dependent or a willful violator. There are headhunters that advertise H-1B sponsorship for candidates. However, USCIS has severely curtailed the activities of third-party petitioners such as headhunters and outfits like Tata, Infosys, et al. I'm not sure why they are contacting you, but I also get headhunters calling me for crazy positions in Alaska or even Canada all the time, though I'm not going anywhere. In any event, the regulations for H-1Bs are clear. There is no advertisement requirement for H-1Bs, unlike the PERM.

I think that the situation you are describing is for an H-1B-dependent employer and/or willful violator. H-1B dependent employers and/or willful violators are those outfits that employ a great percentage of H-1B visa holders (over 15% of the workforce) or that have violated H-1B regulations These emplooyers must make additional attestations to the DOL. They are required to pay extra fees and are required to demonstrate that they have recruited U.S. and other authorized workers. This is probably what happened. If that's the case, these are employers and agencies I'd avoid at all costs. A legitimate employer will not be H-1B dependent or a willful violator.

As for job duties, I think that I fall in the category of 'I do much more than what's in the job description.' It happens frequently and not just for visa holders. However, in many companies, people like me have access and control over job descriptions. I also talk to foreign nationals and I do ask how things are going. As I mentioned previously, being an immigrant myself I do not tolerate anyone who takes advantage of any worker - regardless of immigration status.

As for the performance issue, in many cases the person who made the hiring decision and was aware of the immigration status of the applicant is not usually the one in charge of reviewing performance at my employer. In most cases, there are more than one person who review performance for a single employee.

I also want to clarify that I don't work in an IT company, but we do have a few IT divisions since we have quite a large scope of business (without going into specifics).

I have also worked at an IT company - in fact, one of the biggest and best known ones. I don't remember how performance was evaluated then.

I am not saying fraud doesn't exist or that the system is perfect and error-free... au contraire. But I do think that sometimes we are missing the biggest culprit of visa fraud by concentrating on the H-1B. What is the biggest culprit, you ask?

In my professional opinion, there is no greater culprit than the L-1B visa. It has no cap, no restrictions, no prevailing wage requirements, no education requirements, etc. All you have to ensure is that the employee must have worked at an overseas branch or subsidiary or HQ or affiliate for at least a year within the past 3 years and that s/he must possess 'specialized knowledge' which is rather vague.

The L-1B visa is where I have seen lots of abuses with my own eyes. I have seen the deplorable conditions in which lots of L-1B workers lived. The Jersey City, NJ, waterfront apartments are full of these workers.

In the end, if you do see any instance where any visa is being utilized poorly or fraudulently or if you suspect anything wrong, please please please contact USCIS or ICE or DOL. They do take that stuff seriously, in great part thanks to Obama's compliance and enforcement efforts. The only way we can make the system better is by finding those who abuse it.

Sorry, lots of 'chaff'.. or what I call my paycheck

[JDPriestly]

81. unless the employer is committing fraud

That's a big "unless." It's very likely that a good number of employers who hire H1-B employees do commit fraud. Fraud is very common in business practice in the US. Why wouldn't it also affect the H1-B visas.

All the noble discussion about H1-B visas does not change the fact that they have a horrible effect on our economy. Our unemployment figures are exacerbated by these visas.

They are not fair. American university graduates owe so much for their education, and the wages they now earn in many jobs just do not cover the cost of living and repaying these debts. Every job is vital right now in America. Just one job lost to an H1-B visa holder means one more American unemployed, and in many cases, one more American college graduate unable to repay student loans.

We do not need H1-B visas at this time. They should be abolished, or at the very least, available only when the overall unemployment and underemployment rates in the US are very, very low, say 2-3%.

[jeff47]

86. I'm well aware that there are penalties that are supposed to prevent fraud

They have utterly failed to do so.

I really don't care how seriously you take perjury or fraud. It's being done. Because it has been done in 100% of the H1B situations I have experienced.

Every.

Single.

One.

And there have been dozens that I've seen.

They're not going to tell someone like you about the fraud, because you're required to report it. So they lie.

And citizens who are also employees and know what's going on aren't going to sue or file a complaint. It would be the end of their career.

If an H-1B systems administrator is paid $30K, then - unless the employer is committing fraud - that wage will be at least equal to the prevailing wage.

They get around this by under-titling the H1B employee. They hire him as a "System Administrator II" complete with the description of a "System Administrator II" sent to the DOL. Then after he is hired, they assign more advanced tasks to the employee. If they had been truthful in the job description, they'd have sent "System Administrator IV" as the title and description.

Again, there is no advertising in connection with the H-1B if the employer is not H-1B dependent or a willful violator.

There is advertising when the company is offering their H1B recruiting services to employers. Which is what I was talking about.

There is no advertisement requirement for H-1Bs, unlike the PERM.

I have yet to say anything about an advertisement requirement for H1Bs.

Again, I'm talking about long before they hire an H1B employee. The company is at the stage when they "fail" to find a citizen for the position.

As for job duties, I think that I fall in the category of 'I do much more than what's in the job description.' It happens frequently and not just for visa holders.

And since the salary is set by the reported job duties, what exactly does this do to the salary of the H1B employee?

We're not talking about the person working for a while and gradually getting more responsibility. They hire someone as a junior programmer, and then on day 1 put him in charge of the project.

As for the performance issue, in many cases the person who made the hiring decision and was aware of the immigration status of the applicant is not usually the one in charge of reviewing performance at my employer. In most cases, there are more than one person who review performance for a single employee.

This has never happened in my 16 years. For large and small companies. The direct supervisor was responsible for reviews, and is fully aware of the immigration status of the employee.

In my professional opinion, there is no greater culprit than the L-1B visa. It has no cap, no restrictions, no prevailing wage requirements, no education requirements, etc. All you have to ensure is that the employee must have worked at an overseas branch or subsidiary or HQ or affiliate for at least a year within the past 3 years and that s/he must possess 'specialized knowledge' which is rather vague.

It is limited though by the need for a truly "international" company. Whereas I've had an H1B co-worker in a company with 9 employees.

But in both cases, what we need to do is reform the entire immigration system.

[JDPriestly]

80. The H1-B visas bring in people to fill jobs that Americans could be trained or are capable of doing.

They add to the stress on our employment and harm our economy. Sorry that you have to work in such a field. I consider it to be dirty work. It hurts Americans.

[athena]

49. H1Bs are not cheap.

Do you personally know any H1Bs? I do. One Ph.D. I know, who got an H1B, started at an almost-six-figure salary, not including his bonuses. If it weren't for the H1B program, he would have had to leave the U.S. and go back to Europe. This guy was at the top of his field. I doubt you can find many Americans who had his level of education and training and would have been both qualified and available to take that job.

Most of the people on DU, of course, would have sent him away so that he could benefit some other country, rather than the U.S.

[jeff47]

67. They're cheaper than the alternative

One Ph.D. I know, who got an H1B, started at an almost-six-figure salary, not including his bonuses

And a citizen would get an actual-six-figure salary instead of an almost-six-figure salary.

If it weren't for the H1B program, he would have had to leave the U.S. and go back to Europe. This guy was at the top of his field. I doubt you can find many Americans who had his level of education and training and would have been both qualified and available to take that job.

If we want to retain such people, then we need to provide a way for them to get 'regular' visas instead of a visa that leaves them at the whim of their employer.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

70. There is no 'regular' visa that does not leave them at the whim of an employer

All employment based visas require employer sponsorship. All of them are at the whim of the employer. The one exception is for those who are athletes, extraordinary ability aliens in the arts, etc. who can have their agents serve as petitioners. Even so, they are bound by the contracts with their teams, modeling agency, movie, etc.

This is the way the U.S. immigration system is set up. There are three ways to immigrate to the U.S. legally:

1. Family - as spouse, fiance(e), parent, child (biological or adopted) or close relative of U.S. citizen or LPR. The time it takes is anywhere between a few months to decades.

2. Employment - the great majority of these visas are dependent on the employer. The visa holder is at the mercy of the employer.

3. Special situations: asylum, refugee, victims of violence, terrorism, informants, winners of diversity visa lottery, private bill beneficiaries, etc.

[jeff47]

72. Read your first damn 4 words

All employment based visas

Hey look! You're talking about something completely different than what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about changing the immigration system so that employment doesn't matter. Meaning it wouldn't be an employment based visa.

[lumberjack_jeff]

57. +1000

Which begs the question why increased work visas are in an immigration bill.

[Romulox]

25. What a ridiculous answer. TL;DNR version: "you gotta exploit SOMEBODY!".

Also, anyone who questions this poster may be a racist.

Of course, this has always been the American attitude towards immigration - anti-Catholic, anti-Irish, anti-Chinese, anti-Mexican through the ages. There has always been plenty of anti-immigrant sentiment but, fortunately for most of us, immigrants continued to come to the US and it turned out they were not the 'burden' (but rather an 'asset').

[pampango]

33. What does "TL;DNR version: you gotta exploit SOMEBODY!" mean?

American anti-immigrant sentiments have historically been directed at:

Europeans in the 17th Century;

In 1798 the Alien and Sedition Acts limited the ability of immigrants, especially from France and Ireland, to gain full political rights ...

Catholics in the 19th century;

In 1854, the 'American Party', which was especially hostile to the immigration of Irish Catholics ...
In Charlestown, Massachusetts, a mob attacked and burned down a Catholic convent in 1834 (no one was injured). In the 1840s, small scale riots between Catholics and Protestants took place in several American cities. In Philadelphia in 1844, for example, a series of assaults on Catholic churches and community centers resulted in the loss of lives ...
Anti-Catholic sentiment experienced a revival in the 1890s, led by Protestant Irish immigrants hostile to Catholic immigration.

The Chinese;

In the 1870s Chinese immigrants were attacked in the western states, driving them out of smaller towns.
The Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 was the first of many acts of Congress to limit the flow of immigrants into the U.S.

Anti-immigrant sentiment experienced a resurgence in the late 20th century, this time directed at illegal aliens, largely Mexican resulting in the passage of new penalties against illegal immigration in 1996.

...anyone who questions this poster may be a racist. - I am not calling anyone racist or anti-Catholic or anti-Irish. If you think that a look at anti-immigrant sentiment in American history is not relevant to current immigration reform proposals, just say so and move on. The ol' "Those in favor of immigration are always calling the rest of us 'racists' mantra gets a little old, especially when there are just as many non-racial factors listed in my post about historical sentiments about immigration as there are about race. (I noticed that you chose not to go with "anyone who questions this poster may be a anti-Catholic or anti-Irish." Guess that doesn't have the same pizzazz.)

Just because anti-immigrant sentiments have historically been centered on issues of race, religion and ethnicity (if you have evidence to the contrary I would love to see it) does not mean that everyone (either in the past or today) who opposes immigration does so for any of those reasons. I apologize if my post about an inconvenient aspect of American history offended you.

I hope that makes it clear that I don't think you are a racist.

[earthside]

30. Things change.

We are already overpopulated by about 100 million (others say 150 million) people in the United States.

Immigrants and the present population are now a 'burden' -- we are in denial about that while at the same time we recognize the urgency of climate change, peak oil, water shortages, food distribution problems, etc.

The simple truth is that not only do we need to sharply curtail all kinds of immigration into this country, we need to seriously address our overpopulation problem.

A sustainable human population in the U.S. and on the planet has long ago been passed ... all of this debate about immigration is 'whistling past the graveyard'.

Overpopulation ... really about the most taboo subject you can mention these days.

[area51]

92. +1

Overpopulation has been a taboo subject on the left and right, but we're overpopulatedin this country; it's part of the reason why jobs are so hard to get.

[Romulox]

27. Still waiting for a *coherent* answer to this one. nt

[amandabeech]

43. I don't think that you're going to get a coherent answer to any immigration

question here.

There are certain issues that can't be reasonably discussed here on DU, and this is one of them.

I'm from Michigan originally, and I've seen what happens to communities when the jobs go to Mexico or China. Or what happens when H-1Bs take over tech companies like Stryker in Kalamazoo.

The lack of a job doesn't just affect the former employee, but his or her family, neighborhood, community and state.

People wonder what happened to Detroit, but it's the same thing I've seen going on in Muskegon as I've returned often over the years.

[jeff47]

39. The story back when they were losing those jobs

was that we were going to retrain those low-paid workers for better and better-paying jobs, such as these shiny new high-tech jobs.

And since a good chunk of money was spent on retraining, and there were some success stories, it did not seem like an awful deal to anyone who didn't personally know those lower-paid workers. We didn't get the whole story.

[lumberjack_jeff]

58. Two reactions

a) +100

however...

b) what is the reason for increasing work visas in an immigration bill? Those here on a work visa aren't "immigrants".

[ananda]

23. The only "us" it helps are profiteers.

..

[Romulox]

29. We call working class people "racists" for daring to ask this question. Why are white collar

people allowed to ask it?

[amandabeech]

44. Good question. n/t

These immigration threads are probably as hard for you as for me.

This may be my last post on this subject, but please remember that you have my moral support on this topic always.

[lumberjack_jeff]

59. Heh. +1.

Seems like the "party of the working person" should be better able to see the nuance.

[ponsheki]

37. H1Bs provide one of the few skilled labor pathways to citizenship in the United States

There are almost no other ways to get access to a green card without the H1B. I think between the anti "anchor babies" rhetoric of the conservatives and anti-work visa rhetoric of the liberals, there's consensus in the United States to just have an aging, closed off society like Japan where all the "good" jobs are preserved for "real" citizens.

There's never a good time to allow any kind of immigration...

[jeff47]

40. If you want to encourage such people to move here

then we need to change the immigration system so that they can get a 'normal' visa.

H1B visas are a terrible idea - the worker is utterly at the whim of their current employer. A 'normal' visa would allow the worker to work anywhere.

[pampango]

48. Well said, jeff47.

[still_one]

61. That isn't what has been happening. There are plenty of highly skilled people here who want to work

and need jobs

[Recursion]

71. There is a real shortage of EEs and MechEs

Their unemployment rate is something like 2%. Civil, industrial, systems, and chemical aren't doing as well, between 5 and 6%.

And frankly lumping engineers with IT like this does is ludicrous. There's no shortage whatsoever of skilled IT in the US

[JDPriestly]

83. H1-B visas take jobs from qualified Americans.

There are good times to allow more immigration -- when we have high employment.

Right now, we have high unemployment. It makes no sense to give an H1-B visa to a college graduate from Germany and pay an equally or trainable American unemployment in order to give that H1-B visa. And that is what we are doing right now.

[Recursion]

42. Because they pay Social Security and Medicare taxes but don't receive benefits

unless they manage to stay here.

[still_one]

62. That is an interesting point, not necessarily fair to them

[Recursion]

63. Not *remotely* fair to them

But, in general, immigration helps the safety net in the short term.

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. Define "us".

But it is a little funny that the only jobs worth protecting at DU are tech jobs.

[Nye Bevan]

60. Because skilled immigrants who earn good salaries buy cars, which helps car dealers.

They eat in restaurants, helping chefs and waiters. They buy houses, which helps real estate brokers. They employ the services of electricians, plumbers and gardeners. They pay real-estate taxes which helps fund local government, police and fire departments, and schools. They buy clothes, which helps those employed in clothing stores. They buy appliances, helping appliance stores. Etc.

Hope this helps.

[JDPriestly]

84. Skilled immigrants with regular visas who wait their turn can do that.

H1-B visas are aimed at hiring foreign labor for specific employers. Why should that be done when so many Americans don't have jobs? It makes no sense. We pay unemployment benefits to American workers who can't get jobs while workers on H1-B visas fill jobs that unemployed Americans could be trained to do. That is a waste of the money we pay for unemployment benefits for American workers who are seeking work here.

[bluestate10]

64. An enormous group of engineers and scientists are in their later forties and fifties.

The rate that colleges have produced engineers and scientists for the last two decades isn't high enough to replace people that will be retiring within the next 15-20 years. Projections indicate that the USA will have to import large numbers of engineers to fill the void created by retirements. Of course, circumstances can change, but as of now, a severe shortage of trained people is looming.

[limpyhobbler]

79. It was even in the inauguration speech

Our journey is not complete until we find a better way to welcome the striving, hopeful immigrants who still see America as a land of opportunity -- (applause) -- until bright young students and engineers are enlisted in our workforce rather than expelled from our country. (Applause.)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/01/21/inaugural-address-president-barack-obama

[LittleBlue]

91. It also creates a brain drain in developing countries

Good for the visa holders, but bad for their native countries. Those people are needed to help develop their own countries.

Imagine if all of our inventors, engineers, mathematicians, etc. went to Mars. We would be left without the means to improve our country or educate our countrymen and women to help build a future.

It's a sad thing, both to our own workers and the developing world.

[woo me with science]

93. K&R