Should school board president lose her job over Hitler Facebook post?

[cali]

Social media has been a crucial platform for people to voice their opinions on the gun control debate, but did Ohio's state board of education president take her personal views too far?

According to the Columbus Dispatch, Debe Terhar posted a photo of Adolf Hitler with an anti-gun control message on her personal Facebook page last weekend. While Terhar told the paper she regrets the post and was not comparing President Barack Obama to Hitler, Ohio Democrats are now calling for her resignation.

“In the past, Governor Kasich has called for more civility in the political debate, and now he has a prime opportunity to back up his words with action," Ohio Democratic Chairman Chris Redfern said. "In the absence of a full, formal apology from Terhar, Kasich has a duty to remove his hand-picked State School Board President from office. Under no circumstances is it permissible for Governor Kasich to look the other way while members of his Administration use dangerous, inflammatory rhetoric and images to further their political ideology.”

But Gov. John Kasich told the Dispatch he doesn't think she should lose her job over the post, saying that she had admitted her mistake and no further action was necessary.

<snip>
http://www.northwestohio.com/news/story.aspx?id=851788#.UQFw4_Ksp7m

Ignorant, hateful and stupid. Perfect qualifications for someone in education. Not.

[cali]

2. uh, pretty clear you don't have a clue as to what freedom of speech means.

[datasuspect]

3. uh, yeah

okey dokey.

please disabuse me of my notions.

what is a private citizen NOT permitted to say?

[cali]

5. lol the first amendment protects you from the government encroaching

on your right to speak. and that's it. it doesn't protect you from a boss who wants to fire you for utterances.

[datasuspect]

12. she was engaged in political speech

that is protected and a private person can speak about politics.


ON EDIT: are you SERIOUSLY saying that the first amendment to the constitution of the united states does NOT protect political speech?

SERIOUSLY?

WOW!

[cali]

18. gad. wrong.

look. you need a primer on the first amendment.

[datasuspect]

22. you have ZERO idea what you are talking about

you might want to clam up before you embarrass yourself further.

[cali]

36. sigh. it's you who are demonstrating your remarkable ignorance.

Private employers, of course, have wide leeway to fire employees for political speech. It's a bit more complicated when it comes to government employees, but the SCOTUS has upheld firing of government employees for such.


http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/08/19/Under-the-US-Supreme-Court-Getting-fired-for-a-Facebook-like/UPI-40851345361400/

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/fired-blogging-29762.html

In any case, I don't think this woman should be fired. I think she should be shamed into resigning.

[datasuspect]

39. UPI?

har har.

you're arguing a point i'm not even discussing.

ERROR.

[Bake]

38. What if your boss is The State?

Yeah, that kinda clouds the issue, since the First Amendment applies to The State ...

Bake

[geek tragedy]

44. Political appointees have no constitutional right to keep their job.

If you make yourself toxic and prove yourself unfit for office, there's no right to keep your job anyways.

[HiPointDem]

52. school boards are typically elected, not appointed.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=school+board+elections&oq=school+board+elections&gs_l=hp.3..0l10.2137.4844.1.5016.17.11.0.6.6.1.378.2396.0j5j2j3.10.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.g3TzMyeZ2DM&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41524429,d.cGE&fp=94e32a4cea89f529&biw=1024&bih=580

and she was elected, not appointed.

http://www.debeterhar.com/aboutdebe.html

[magical thyme]

67. No it doesn't. The first amendment isn't about the right to hold a specific job.

It is about the right to express your opinion and not be arrested and/or jailed for it.

For recent violations of the first amendment, we need look no further than the Bush administration when people were arrested for wearing anti-Bush t-shirts in a public venue.

Firing the Superintendent for very poor, inflammatory expression of her political views in public, thus providing students with a piss poor example of how to conduct a policy discussion, is not a violation of the 1st amendment.

[HiPointDem]

70. who is an elected official's 'boss'? she was elected. she's not an appointee, & not a state

employee.

As an elected member, my term on the State Board of Education began on January 1, 2011 and will end on December 31, 20I4. I was elected President of the Board on March 15, 2011 and was re-elected President on January 14, 2013. It is a two-year term that expires on December 31, 2014.

http://www.debeterhar.com/aboutdebe.html

[Denninmi]

16. Well, you can't yell "fire" in a theater or other public place if there isn't one.

The SC has put some other restrictions -- mostly on hate crimes. I don't think this rises to the level of a hate crime, just hatred of the President.

As much as I hate crap like this, I have to say she does still have freedom to express unpopular views.

Look at the case of the Nazi's demonstrating in Skokie, Illinois. A horrible thing, but the US SC upheld their right to do it.

It's a slippery slope -- take away freedom of speech/expression because you don't like what's being said is a good way to ensure that eventually someone won't like what you are saying, and try to stop you in the same way.

We had sort of similar thing here, the Teabagger mayor of Troy, Michigan, posted homophobic slurs on her facebook after NY legalized gay marriage. She was recalled in November and dumped to the curb the day after the election was certified. Sweet revenge.

[datasuspect]

19. fighting words and yelling fire

are two basic restrictions.

inciting imminent lawlessness is another one.

but the first amendment covers all americans and non americans on US soil or territories.

political speech and non political public speech are protected, with the restrictions you mentioned.

[Denninmi]

24. Yup.

I was kind of wracking my brain to think of some of these. I had constitutional law a few years ago, but the cobwebs are taking over in the old cranium, you know.

[geek tragedy]

46. She has a right to free speech, not a right to a political appointment.

She doesn't have a constitutional right to keep her job, just like a Holocaust denier wouldn't have a constitutional right to keep a teaching job.

[datasuspect]

48. she isn't in danger of losing her job.

[geek tragedy]

49. Well, no one's talking about putting her in jail, so what's with

the 1st amendment complaints then?

[HiPointDem]

53. school boards are typically elected, not appointed.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=school+board+elections&oq=school+board+elections&gs_l=hp.3..0l10.2137.4844.1.5016.17.11.0.6.6.1.378.2396.0j5j2j3.10.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.g3TzMyeZ2DM&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41524429,d.cGE&fp=94e32a4cea89f529&biw=1024&bih=580

[magical thyme]

63. It means she cannot be *jailed* for her speech

it does not mean she cannot lose her job for piss-poor job performance.

I work in customer service. If I call a client a lying jackass fucking asshole, I assure you I can, and will, be fired. I won't be jailed, but I'd be escorted out the door faster than you can read this sentence.

She works in education, and furthermore is in a highly visible role expected to provide, among other things, an *example* of civil behavior and how to hold an intelligent discussion to young, impressionable minds.

She instead has provided an example of exactly how *not* to behave in civil society and how *not* have hold a civil discussion, and she has done so not in the privacy of her home but in the most public way possible. In so doing, she has demonstrated she is stupid, incompetent and totally lacking in judgement. Not somebody who should in any way be involved in decision making around education.

[immoderate]

4. Yep. Stupid assholes have rights.

I would not want to be judged on what I post on the net.

--imm

[cali]

7. yes, she can post whatever she wants- and suffer the blowback

[datasuspect]

9. doesn't mean you agree with them

what they say might infuriate you.

but they have the right to say.

especially if it is done under the auspices of a private person.

from what i read of the OP she wasn't using state or educational means to communicate her message.

[immoderate]

25. I wasn't being facetious. She has a right to assholiness (on her time.)

--imm

[datasuspect]

26. yup

she made the comments as a private citizen

[MineralMan]

17. I always expect to be judged for what I post on the net.

So, I'm careful about what I post. It's that simple.

[immoderate]

28. Me too. But "expect" is not "want."

I think she's a moron.

--imm

[EOTE]

6. Do you know what freedom of speech means?

It was designed to protect the American populace from laws created by congress which would limit their speech. This has zip to do with freedom of speech.

[cali]

10. large numbers of DUers haven't a clue as to what the 1st amendment protects. not a fucking clue.

[EOTE]

34. Ain't that the truth.

It's as if they think the text reads: "Anyone can say whatever the hell they want without any repercussions."

[HiPointDem]

69. well why don't you explain it to the benighted, cali.

[datasuspect]

14. it allows the American populace to engage in political speech

you might want to brush up.

you don't know what you are talking about.

[cali]

20. it does not protect you from being forced to resign for saying something political or

from being fired for making a political utterance.

[datasuspect]

23. that's not the issue at hand

her job isn't in danger.

[HiPointDem]

54. how do you 'fire' an elected official?

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=school+board+elections&oq=school+board+elections&gs_l=hp.3..0l10.2137.4844.1.5016.17.11.0.6.6.1.378.2396.0j5j2j3.10.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.g3TzMyeZ2DM&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41524429,d.cGE&fp=94e32a4cea89f529&biw=1024&bih=580

[EOTE]

31. No, that's not what it does.

It prevents congress from making a law which would abridge freedom of speech. And it has nothing to do with whether or not that speech is political. According to your interpretation of the first amendment, it means that you can't get fired for things that you say. And that is beyond asinine.

[datasuspect]

32. we've established that you have no idea what you're talking about

go read up on 1st amendment jurisprudence and get back to me.

PROTIP: the first amendment and its related case law aren't just encoded within the text of the bill of rights.

[EOTE]

33. Christ you're good at projection.

You think the first amendment means that you can't get fired for things that you say and I'M the one who doesn't know what it means. Your notion of the first amendment seems to be exactly that of Sarah Palin's who seems to think that the first amendment prevents the media from criticizing her. That's insane.

On edit: Please explain to me how the first amendment has ANYTHING to do with whether or not this person should lose their job.

[datasuspect]

37. that isn't the point i am arguing

the point i am arguing is that as a private person, this person has the absolute right to engage in political speech.

do you want to wrestle about this?

i'll meet you in the squared circle.

but seriously, go read some first amendment jurisprudence before you start beating your chest and shouting from the rooftops.

[EOTE]

40. And that person has every right to get fired for that same speech.

You're suggesting that free speech protects her from getting fired which is utter bullshit. This has NOTHING to do with the first amendment. You are totally out of your league.

[datasuspect]

42. i'm not suggesting.

you're projecting.

go read a book - it aids in developing critical thinking skills and overall reading comprehension.

anyway, you win the internets today. now go bother someone else.

[EOTE]

43. You still haven't explained how this has anything to do with the first amendment.

You just keep on posting random bullshit and expecting everyone to assume you know what you're talking about. So, exactly HOW does this pertain to the first amendment?

[datasuspect]

47. are you still buzzing around

you probably weren't aware that once i say you win the internets today and you post after that point, you get sent to ignore.

buh-bye.

[EOTE]

50. Well, thanks for making me aware.

Plenty of people put me on ignore when they're too ignorant to make a cogent response. I choose not to use the ignore function. There's really nothing that anyone could say to me that would make me feel so awful that I'd feel the ignore function is necessary.

[HiPointDem]

56. school boards are typically elected by the voters, not political appointments.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=school+board+elections&oq=school+board+elections&gs_l=hp.3..0l10.2137.4844.1.5016.17.11.0.6.6.1.378.2396.0j5j2j3.10.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.g3TzMyeZ2DM&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41524429,d.cGE&fp=94e32a4cea89f529&biw=1024&bih=580

[EOTE]

59. I don't see what that has to do with anything posted previously.

Especially with how her position is protected from firing by the first amendment.

On edit: The article above also states that this position was hand picked by Kasich.

[HiPointDem]

60. elected officials don't get 'fired'. you act like the governor or someone can just step in &

'fire' this person.

elected officials don't get 'fired,' they get recalled or voted out in the next election.

[EOTE]

62. Again, that has nothing to do with whether or not this is a first amendment issue.

Also, according to the article, this position was hand picked by Kasich. So I don't see in any way how what you're saying has any significance to the discussion at hand.

[HiPointDem]

64. he may have 'hand-picked' her as a candidate, but she's an elected official, not an appointee.

As an elected member, my term on the State Board of Education began on January 1, 2011 and will end on December 31, 20I4. I was elected President of the Board on March 15, 2011 and was re-elected President on January 14, 2013. It is a two-year term that expires on December 31, 2014.

I am a former licensed Montessori education teacher with ten years of experience in Early Childhood Montessori Education. My experience has included working with children with disabilities and diverse socio-economic backgrounds.

I graduated Summa Cum Laude from Xavier University, with honors from Alpha Sigma Nu and Mortar Board. I am currently a Board Member on the Women of Excellence Council of the President's Advisory Council of Xavier University.

http://www.debeterhar.com/aboutdebe.html


so it seems like actually it's you who's misinformed about terhar & school boards.

[EOTE]

68. Once again, you are completely clouding the issue.

The post I was responding to suggested she shouldn't be fired because of the first amendment, I stated that this issue has NOTHING to do with the first amendment and that's without a doubt the case. And, as a member of Kasich's administration, I'd like for you to point out precisely where it's stated that he can't fire her. It's certainly allowed in certain states, and I think the fact that Kasich has repeated stated that he won't fire her and not that he can't fire her is indicative of the fact that he does have that ability. You're welcome to prove me wrong, though.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/03/14/michigan-gop-passes-bill-granting-power-to-fire-elected-officials-to-one-person/

[HiPointDem]

71. He can't *fire* someone elected by the voters, what don't you get?

she was elected by the voters of the 4th district. some of the ohio state school board are appointees, but she's not one of them.

http://stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/maps/ohio-state-board-of-education-voters-guide-2012-2/

[EOTE]

73. I've proven that that's not the case. Did you read the link I provided?

Here's another:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/03/11/michigan-governor-plays-fast-and-loose-with-democracy-invokes-radical-new-powers/

Now given that Kasich has said repeatedly that he won't fire her, not that he CAN'T fire her, surely you can provide some information that states that he's not allowed to do so. What don't you get about that?

On edit: Also, Tehrar was elected president by board members, NOT by the voters of Ohio.

[HiPointDem]

74. you didn't prove shit. has an emergency manager been designated for the state of michigan?

has kasich declared financial emergency in michigan state as a whole?

truly idiotic straw-clutching.

[EOTE]

75. So, you've got nothing?

I've asked you three times to post just an iota of evidence saying that Kasich doesn't have the ability to do this and you've posted nada. Pretty much what I expected.

[HiPointDem]

78. i posted *proof* that she's an elected official. you post some *proof* that kasich can 'fire'

elected officials.

not the 'emergency manager' law, which mandates that kasich can declare some city to be in emergency & appoint an emergency manager, who can then fire people.

maybe the board could itself vote to remove her as president, but she was elected to the board itself by the people.

[EOTE]

80. She was elected by the BOARD not by Ohio voters.

Now you provide an inkling of evidence that people elected by a board cannot be fired by a governor.

[HiPointDem]

81. she was elected as *president* by the board, but elected to the *board itself* by the voters.

http://www.smartvoter.org/2010/11/02/oh/state/vote/terhar_d/

Hamilton, Warren County, OH November 2, 2010 Election
Smart Voter Debe Terhar

Candidate for
Member; State Board of Education; District 4
[photo]
The information on this page is provided by the candidate.
The LWV neither supports nor opposes any political party or candidate.
Campaign Web Site
Website
Biographical Highlights

Occupation: Vice President/Administration
B.S. Montessori Early Childhood Education
Graduated Summa Cum Laude (Xavier University)
Certified and Licensed Early Childhood Education Teacher
Founding Member of American Spirit Education Alliance
Elected Precinct Executive


Top Priorities if Elected

A full range of quality educational opportunities to serve the best interest of each individual child in Ohio
Improve qualitative measures for individual schools and districts while dramatically improving achievement expectations
Improve accountability and instill fiscal responsibility while emphasising traditional values for the State's $7 billion Education Budget


Questions on Issues

The League of Women Voters of Ohio asked questions on the issues of all candidates for this office.
Read the answers from Debe Terhar

[EOTE]

82. Again, we're talking about her position as president.

Where is your proof that she can't be fired from her position as president by the governor.

[HiPointDem]

83. the governor didn't appoint her as president & can't fire her as president -- unless he's a dictator

who can violate democratic processes with impunity.

the board can pressure her to resign her position, & possibly there's some procedure for them to vote her out before her term ends, i don't know.

where is your proof that the governor can fire her?

answer: you don't have any, you didn't even know she was an elected official, you're just jumping on a bandwagon with low information.

[EOTE]

84. You've provided nothing in terms of proof.

At least I've provided a good deal to suggest that he's able to fire her. And your idiotic interjections do absolutely nothing to add to the conversation at hand which is that whether she is fired or not, this has nothing to do with the first amendment. The slow fellow who initially posted his statement that this was a first amendment issue was so embarrassed that he self deleted his post. He doesn't need any sock puppets defending him, he's already admitted that he's full of shit.

[HiPointDem]

85. your idiotic interjections don't 'suggest' any such thing.

"Surprise, Debe Terhar is a Republican, so no-one should be surprised that she’s engaging in the same kind of name-calling President Obama talked about during his inaugural address Monday. The Republican haters just can’t help themselves, but they should remember that they are elected to office and can be voted out of office."

http://hinterlandgazette.com/2013/01/board-education-president-debe-terhar-denies-comparing-obama-hitler-gun-control.html

Democrats are calling for her *resignation,* not her *firing*. Because she *can't be* fired, she can only be pressured to leave.

The head of the Ohio Democratic Party yesterday called for the resignation of Ohio Board of Education President Debe Terhar for a Facebook posting that appeared to compare President Barack Obama’s call for more gun control to Adolf Hitler, the Nazi leader responsible for millions of deaths in World War II.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2013/01/23/democrats-want-school-board-head-out.html

You're wrong, but you can't admit it.

[EOTE]

86. So you've given up on offering anything in terms of proof?

1) She was elected by the BoE, she can be fired and doesn't need to be recalled or voted out.

2) This issue has nothing to do with the 1st Amendment.

You've provided nothing to counter any of that information. Yet you keep yapping.

[HiPointDem]

88. she was elected to the BOE by the VOTERS, as I've proven. You got nothing.

Debe Terhar, a graduate of Xavier University, came to education as a Montessori teacher of 3- to 6-year-olds...She said she ran for the state board so she “could do something for the children of Ohio.”

She was the first of the couple to run for elected office in 2010, and Lou Terhar campaigned hard for her. She faces re-election to a four-year term in 2014, representing the state board’s Fourth District, which includes Hamilton and Warren counties.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20130101/NEWS010801/301010056/Green-Twp-couple-takes-reins-Columbus

[EOTE]

89. Derp. But she became PRESIDENT because she was elected by the BoE? Comprende?

Of course not. You've proven very well that you lack the ability to learn.

[HiPointDem]

91. i'm the one who told you that. you didn't know a damn thing about the boe before i told you.

your position is apparently that someone should fire her as president, but she can stay on the board.

whatever. anyone who's masochist enough to follow your comments knows you're making it up as you go along. spin spin spin little spider.

derp yourself & goodbye.

[EOTE]

92. So, you're saying that you're full of shit?

But it was YOU who informed me that you're full of shit, so that's alright? Bully for you. Logic seems to be your strong point.

You came in here completely distracting from the issue at hand and that's the best you can come up with? Good luck with that.

[Bake]

41. THANK YOU for using "populace" correctly!

Not "populous." Geez that pisses me off. Kudos for doing it right!!



Bake

[EOTE]

45. I never thought I'd get kudos for using a word properly.

But thanks anyway

[geomon666]

8. Personally I don't think she should be either.

That being said though, there are consequences to what someone says and does in public.

[we can do it]

11. Of course it happened in Ohio

[Initech]

13. Nazi tourettes acting up again??

[MineralMan]

15. She should resign in disgrace.

That would solve the problem.

[EastKYLiberal]

21. Yes. No one that ignorant should be allowed near the education system. nt

[okaawhatever]

27. She should be fired for poor decision making, her inability to be the example her title demands,

and moral turpitude. Most people hired by a governor are hired to "serve at the pleasure of the governor". Her showing bad judgement in any arena reflects poorly on the person she is there to support. I have had a moral turpitude clause in every management job i've had. Not only did she reflect poorly on her boss for her actions, she seems to be an extremist to compare gun control proposals to Hitler. I'm quite certain the Jewish students wouldn't find those two things equal.

[butterflygirl]

29. I'm confused here,

She is the school board president, so I'm supposing she's a very educated person. Now, with that being said, does she not know that Hitler actually loosened the control of guns while he was in power.

Had she posted something for gun control, I'm sure the governor would have fired her in an instance. How hypocritical!

[arcane1]

30. Stupid about how not to use Facebook, and ignorant of history

One wonders how she was ever qualified in the first place.

[Bandit]

35. IMO Republicans are not known for their competence, in any field other than belittling people.

[HiPointDem]

51. school board is usually an elected position (sometimes without salary). let the voters throw her

out if they want to.

political comment in your private time is protected speech.

[leftyohiolib]

55. here it is the 1st amendment in all its glory

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

btw notice no "wall" of separation.

[Nye Bevan]

57. No, I don't think municipal employees should lose their jobs based upon their positions on issues

such as gun control. Personally I think the "Hitler" gun control argument is pretty stupid, but it's a common enough view that I don't think she should be fired for it.

Plus, I don't like the precedent it would set. Say a school board in Alabama decided to fire an employee who declared that she was pro-choice. How could you criticize this if you supported the firing of the Ohio woman?

(If she had posted something completely outrageous and offensive, for example denying the Holocaust, then of course my opinion would be different).

[HiPointDem]

65. she's an elected official, not a municipal employee.

[Nye Bevan]

72. Even less of a reason, then. Let the voters decide (nt)

[Recursion]

58. What if it were a teacher rather than a superintendent

And she were comparing La Pierre to Hitler, rather than Obama?

[Jamastiene]

61. Yes.

She should be kept away from children with no better judgment than that. I doubt many people would want their children left in the hands of someone who cannot see why that type of post was wrong from the get-go.

[HiPointDem]

66. she doesn't work with children.

[Jamastiene]

76. Her decisions impact students. Period.

Semantics do not change the fact that she has extremely poor judgment in posting such a thing.

[HiPointDem]

79. a politician exercising bad judgement. shocker. maybe you could take her to task on her policy

choices (which are horrific) rather than her facebook postings dissing obama.

actually, maybe the democratic party could run a ground game at the state & local level like the republicans are running, instead of this "ooh, what she said" bullshit from DC.

they don't care that the pubs are passing fascist laws at the state level, just that republicans diss obama by implying *he's* a fascist.

where are the democrats fighting against the privatization of michigan's schools?

where are the democrats fighting against michigan's fascist emergency manager law?

[forthemiddle]

77. Be careful what you wish for

To the op, I realize you are not calling for her to lose her job, this is a general post for all the DUers reading this thread.

Over the past 2 years in Wisconsin many, many, many, State employees have been stating their political feelings on their personal facebook pages. And you can believe that a whole bunch of them were worse than comparing Scott Walker to Hitler........

Just saying, do we place the same standards on both sides, or are we gonna make all government employees liable for their facebook pages.

Be careful what you with for.....

I know that the GOP has been trying to demonize the teachers in this State by bringing up social media posts, recall signatures, union activities, etc.

[gollygee]

87. Yes. Freedom of Speech gives you the right to say what you want, however

it does not give you the right to avoid consequences for what you say.

[BainsBane]

90. anyone that stupid shouldn't be school board president

They are responsible for children's education, and she's clearly an idiot. It is possible to support the Second Amendment without being a complete moron.